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Do you think this is an AI summary or not?: With AI tools, such as ChatGPT, sales teams can enhance coaching processes by creating personalized frameworks, generating data-driven insights, and fostering consistency for improved productivity and skill development.
It is... But anyway, that's pretty much what we discussed with Koen - he's been using AI to assist with coaching the team. Don't get us wrong, the AI doesn't do the coaching, it's enabling it.
In the episode, we get into:
***
It is... But anyway, that's pretty much what we discussed with Koen - he's been using AI to assist with coaching the team. Don't get us wrong, the AI doesn't do the coaching, it's enabling it.
In the episode, we get into:
- (00:00) - Introduction
- (02:53) - Meet Koen
- (04:46) - Coaching, does it really matter?
- (13:43) - Why coaching doesn't happen
- (15:12) - How AI changes coaching
- (21:20) - Coaching framework with AI
- (25:58) - Top down does not work
- (39:21) - 1 thing to leave with
***
This episode is brought to you by Growblocks. Finding and fixing problems in your GTM shouldn't take weeks. It should happen instantly.
That's why Growblocks built the first RevOps platform that shows you your entire funnel, split by motions, segments and more - so you can find problems, the root-cause and identify solutions fast, all in the same platform.
***
Connect with us
✉️ Newsletter: revenueletter.substack.com
Creators & Guests
What is The Revenue Formula?
This podcast is about scaling tech startups.
Hosted by Toni Hohlbein & Mikkel Plaehn, together they look at the full funnel.
With a combined 20 years of experience in B2B SaaS and 3 exits, they discuss growing pains, challenges and opportunities they’ve faced. Whether you're working in RevOps, sales, operations, finance or marketing - if you care about revenue, you'll care about this podcast.
If there’s one thing they hate, it’s talk. We know, it’s a bit of an oxymoron. But execution and focus is the key - that’s why each episode is designed to give 1-2 very concrete takeaways.
[00:00:00] Toni: Hey everyone this is Toni Hohlbein from Growblocks you are listening to the revenue formula with Mikkel And Toni, in today's episode, we're talking with Koen Stam. He's the head of Benelux at Personio and we dive into coaching, why no one really actually does it and how you can get started much faster using AI.
[00:00:21] Enjoy.
[00:00:26] Mikkel: So the question is when Koen is going to come to Denmark for some real beer.
[00:00:31] Koen: I have a better one, you guys. I mean We will meet up in a few weeks in Antwerp, so we will try out the Belgian beer, we will provide them on a workship there. Having said, I do come from Haarlem, with AA, which is not the Haarlem in New York, but close to Amsterdam, more towards the sea. And we have our own very thing, which you guys don't have, which is a beer church.
[00:00:53] A
[00:00:54] Mikkel: A beer, a church.
[00:00:56] Koen: And they brew within the church, also on Sundays,
[00:01:01] Toni: Tell me a little bit more about that. Is this like a, oh, there's a building. Let's repurpose it and put like beer in there? Or how, how did, how did it come to be? Is it, is it, is it a beer religion that you have there, or
[00:01:10] Koen: now I got tested on my, uh, my, my skill sets on the history of the, of the city where I already live, like, uh, over a decade, but, um, so it was an old church. Not in use anymore for decades. So they built the building and built the brewery inside because it's all about experiences also in GTM and sales.
[00:01:30] But, um, and then, um, the name Jopen, I will, uh, later on, I will spell it and I will share you some links, but Jopen used to be the, the type of, um, wooden, how do you call it? Barrels in which you distribute. The beer centuries ago and therefore it became a really, um, uh, of course, uh, important element for Haarlem and therefore Jopen became as well like the, the, the, the Haarlem brute crafted beer.
[00:01:59] So I will take, I will take a few for you guys next time.
[00:02:03] Toni: Koen, how did, um, you know, we talked, we talked just on your quarter end the other day. Uh, how did the quarter end go?
[00:02:12] Koen: To be honest, we are, we have the full quarter. So it's January, March, and then April, June. So, um, it was the first month of the new quarter, but like, uh, I have to always be very correct. It went fully according to plan.
[00:02:27] Toni: So this is fantastic. So does that mean that, um, you don't have any need to coach anyone on your team now that everything kind of worked out extremely perfectly for you?
[00:02:35] Koen: It's, it's fully, it's fully done with AI. It's fully done with AI. That's like why we have conversations over, over going to beer churches or brewing whiskey in, in churches, because again, like everything's totally done by, by AI. So I think we as, uh, revenue leaders, uh, you know, we can spend our time wisely on other things.
[00:02:52] We don't have to coach anymore.
[00:02:53] Toni: That's it. So for everyone who hasn't guessed it yet, uh, I want to quickly introduce Koen Stam here. Um, you're head of benelux at Personio. Personio is kind of doing HR software. It's wildly successful across Europe. Crazy story there. Maybe that's for another time. You are super active on LinkedIn.
[00:03:10] Talk a lot about. Revenue Architecture, Go To Market, SaaS in general, and also Sales, AI, and Coaching. A lot of really cool posts coming from you. Um, really awesome to have you on the show finally.
[00:03:24] Koen: What can I say? And, and, and typically I was put it directly back. I mean, I'm listening to you guys in my, in my, every Sunday when I need to run and I need to calm down from a very busy work week. I listen to, among others, I have to say, the revenue formula. So, um,
[00:03:39] Toni: It's, it's going to be so weird to listen to your own voice next time you go for run Koen. But,
[00:03:44] Koen: Yeah, I wonder, I wonder if that's gonna be in my ears. Like,
[00:03:47] Toni: yeah, we might
[00:03:48] Mikkel: lose. We might lose a subscriber. What you're saying, it's like, dang it, the number is going to go down. Um, but we're going to talk about, uh, basically the first thing that gets canceled when the calendar is really under pressure, coaching.
[00:04:01] Yeah. That's what we're going to focus on today.
[00:04:04] Toni: Not only, I mean, it's, it's not only when the calendars is squeezed, but also when budgets are squeezed, right? Kind of, I mean, we're, we're seeing it, um, when you think about folks, um, that are in the learning and development space, either setting software services.
[00:04:19] Super, super squeezed right now. I have been squeezed a lot for the last one or two years. Um, you know, sometimes that has to do with where the budget is coming from, but even in, in terms of a mental space, right, kind of, those are things that something kind of get crowded out and drowned out. Um, but Koen, I mean, how do you, how do you go about this, right?
[00:04:38] How do you, um, first of all, how do you get to the decision to put so much emphasis on coaching in the first place?
[00:04:46] Koen: Before I answer the question, there may be a quiz. Question for both of you. How much time on average, and just put it there, a sales manager, on a weekly basis spent on coaching,
[00:04:58] Toni: I think probably the, the, you know, it depends a little bit on how do you find coaching, but I would say 25 minutes.
[00:05:06] Koen: 25 minutes on an entire week.
[00:05:08] Toni: Yes.
[00:05:09] Mikkel: Yeah, it's probably low. I mean, they have, if they have six direct reports, they can probably do one per week max. Yeah. Something like that.
[00:05:19] Koen: so I will give you two numbers. Like we overall spent 55 percent per week of 55 percent of our time as, as managers on a weekly, on a week, only on internal stuff, which is not coaching. And 73 percent of, of, of sales manager overall spend less than two hours. So not 25 minutes, uh, Toni, but less than two hours on coaching.
[00:05:44] And, and then I'm asking, like, we've changed from, I mean, we have posted about this as well, like growth at all costs. No, that play it's old school. We need to go efficient growth. Meaning, I guess as well, our buyers, there is something changed in them, in the mindset of our buyers.
[00:05:59] Toni: Yeah.
[00:06:00] Koen: And we should not coach people that the economy and the way our buyers buy has changed dramatically?
[00:06:07] Toni: I mean,
[00:06:07] Koen: Question mark.
[00:06:08] Toni: there's even like an, you know, the, the other dimension even also works, right? I mean, um, think about how much money you're spending on staff, on people, um, and how much money you're spending on trying to make them better just a little bit, right? And coaching is probably, I mean, there are different ways, you know, I'm not too deep in the whole learning space, but they're learning by doing, and then there's kind of educator stuff, and then coaching and stuff in between.
[00:06:32] Uh, but still, this is one of the levers to pull in order to You know, get more out of your workforce, but also I would say it's probably also connected to a happier workforce to begin with, right? Kind of a place where you can learn and grow and master a skill. I think that's going to be, um, you know, a much bigger reason to stick around, even though there might be competitive, you know, salaries out there.
[00:06:56] Koen: I, um, on this topic, I'm fully true. I mean, I know that, uh, you're also a big fan of KD. I know he was also on the show and, and the first thing, I mean, to be honest, but I really like our organization, Personio. We fully invested in KD. For our leadership training and I can highly recommend because there's only a few on LinkedIn or out there in the globe in GTM who is as much focused on leadership development than KD is.
[00:07:25] And I think that's like solely highly underestimated for us. The importance of, of, of, of, um, first line, frontline manager development. They have, like Mikkel said, like on average, six, seven, eight direct reports. If we don't develop them, how can they develop? Their people, uh, from which indeed, and then coming back to your point, still like the overall salary cost is the biggest asset on our P& L.
[00:07:51] Toni: Yes.
[00:07:52] Koen: Yeah. Why, why spend only a fraction of our time where we as, as leaders get coached, get paid for on, on coaching? Um, but yeah, like you said, like it's the first thing which we are skipping because the day to day and deal reviews and, and, and internal forecast meetings, et cetera, they get, uh, prioritized.
[00:08:09] Yeah.
[00:08:10] Toni: So, I mean, you're almost half answered my next question here, but why do you think that is actually? Why, why is coaching dropping away most of the time? Because you can make the rational arguments super easily, right? We just kind of did it. It's super straightforward. It's probably one of the highest ROI positive things you can do as, as being a manager or leader.
[00:08:30] But why is this one of the areas that gets, uh, you know, cut and squeezed away immediately?
[00:08:35] Koen: I think, um, if you ask me for two elements, like first that a IC or even a first line manager is not successful is only because of leadership. We as leaders, we define what our people, our first line leaders, what our ICs need to do. Right. And, and, and, and the first thing we always mention is saying like, we are not customer centric, but we are really feature and product centric.
[00:08:58] Why? We teach our people those elements and not like being very customer centric, trying to solve, uh, use cases, jobs to be done. And that's the very first thing we are asking in a, in a deal review or in a one on one. We directly go into the metrics and then getting back towards what KDs always says, like AIC doesn't want to hit quota.
[00:09:20] An IC is a person in an organization who has a personal goal. What is a personal goal? And if you really ask people, eventually, of course, that lays outside their job. Um, by, by, by luck, actually, when you think, like, what does he have in his hand? But this is from my, just my son, who just played this morning here.
[00:09:38] So it's like a little dinosaur, but, uh, I have it just in my hand. But, no, so, um, it's a personal goal which people, uh, want to reach. And, and personal satisfaction is still the prowl that every individual has. That's meaning. I want to show in the organization that I developed, that I got promoted. I get these kinds of things.
[00:09:56] Actually, I'm very proud that in my Benelux team, because indeed I'm only responsible in Personia for the Benelux, um, only one person in the team, um, didn't hit promotion. Even my, my sales manager, I mean, she, uh, she, she, she made the entire team being able to promote it except for one person. So still a goal for this year.
[00:10:15] She also got promoted. And I think again, like that can't happen without the right focus. On a fundament where we say, you're today here, you want to go there. How are we going there? We need some structure. We need some plan. We need some, some documentation. And then we need to consistently coach people on only those elements.
[00:10:36] So they make impact in their current job. Because again, if I ask you, Hey, where do you want to improve on as an IC or as a manager, and most likely if you ask me, then I've got an entire list of what I want to reach in the coming next year, but I think what is very important is to, and I think there are, it also goes wrong.
[00:10:51] It's unstructured, it is, it is all over the place and it's inconsistent how we are coaching. So I think those elements, structure, let's bring it down into like a long list towards like, hey, no, what are the key elements where in your current role you need to focus on this quarter, also timeframe, make it really specific.
[00:11:12] Um, I think, and, and then consistent. So I know that everyone is squeezed. I mean, I'm, I'm the last to say that I always execute with my leaders and with my ICs, all the, uh, the, the coaching, but at least it needs to happen on a biweekly basis, and then I think the last thing, because you talked about, or we talked about the personal goal that someone has, but I have found it also very important that there is like then a piece of intrinsic motivation from the IC that he or she really wants to develop and he or she needs to have skin in the game.
[00:11:45] So when it comes, like for instance, if you ask me my coaching, I don't ask my leaders, did I force upend them, force open them? Coaching. I ask them, you are in charge, charge of your personal goal. You want to make promotion, I'm available. It's biweekly coaching. You own the meeting
[00:12:03] Toni: Yeah.
[00:12:04] Koen: because also to put this accountability back towards the people, because it, it, it, it takes two to tango if you want to build a coaching, um, culture within an organization.
[00:12:13] Toni: I'm sometimes wondering, I'm sometimes wondering if, if the reason for the lack of coaching, you know, despite all the, the good positive reasons why you obviously should do it. If the real reason is simply that people don't know how to do it. Yeah. Like, honestly, it's like, um, sure. Yes. Uh, I know I should be brushing my teeth and you know, I think most of us know how to do that.
[00:12:33] Maybe that was a terrible example. And you are doing it right. I'm supposed to, right? Um, no, but you know what, you know what I mean? It's like you, you, you've gotten to the quote unquote top as a manager, as a director, as a leader, um, not by way of coaching. No. So you, you've gotten there, especially in the sales profession through other means.
[00:12:51] and then this is a bolted on additional skill that you realize, hopefully eventually that you totally need to have. And then to your point, and this is where I think it's great that you guys are working with KD on this, You need to actually, you know, teach. How to do coaching. Yeah. Because the, the thing is also, uh, I would bet, uh, a lot of people listening that's like, Hey, Koen said I need to coach.
[00:13:15] And his persona is a, he is a big successful guy and a big successful company. So I should totally do that. Maybe I can become parts of that as well. and then they have a coach coaching session and a completely tanks. Yeah. They're sitting there. You know, the, the, the other person is completely unhappy about it.
[00:13:30] Maybe some expectations now build that they struggle to follow up on. Um, I think there's also just a massive skill gap to jump from, you know, A to B here actually, and that is preventing a bunch of people from doing it.
[00:13:43] Koen: true. That's, that's, that's one for sure. Um, to be honest, I was actually talking on this topic with Andre Bressel. I mean, I think, uh, Toni, you know him from somewhere, right? You
[00:13:53] Toni: We were, we were, we were flatmates.
[00:13:54] Koen: coming back.
[00:13:55] Toni: We were flatmates
[00:13:56] Koen: You were flatmates.
[00:13:57] Toni: or three years.
[00:13:58] Koen: And typically, I mean, coaching means as well, being open and vulnerable and asking for feedback.
[00:14:03] So I already shared my presentation. I shared this and he gave feedback this morning. Um, and, and, and one of the things he said as well, like indeed, there is like a big Knowledge gap between I want, but how am I able to coach? That's one thing I only want to add there. Um, getting back to what your example of KD, uh, investment within Personio, um, higher up leadership, regardless the size of your, of your organization, they need to facilitate, they need to stand for it.
[00:14:32] They need to consistently invest in it. And that's like a thing when you're coming back, if leaders, and it starts with a CEO, don't believe in it. Or a CRO, eventually, if I talk about commercial organizations and they are not investing in it and advocating for it consistently, again, that word consistent, you will hear quite often.
[00:14:50] Um, it also going to fail because if I want it as like me as a regional leader, but the organization, in this case, we have like a big enablement team led by Gesine. She is the biggest fan in this case, also of KD to facilitate this to the org and fully bought in with our CRO.
[00:15:06] Toni: Yeah.
[00:15:07] Koen: So that's like the, so that's the additional piece, which is very important and overlooked somehow.
[00:15:12] Toni: Let's jump one step ahead here. so coaching, cool, is important. A couple of issues with coaching. How does, how does AI change that game now, right? Kind of, is this the, oh, now no one needs to learn how to coach anymore? Uh, you know, magic wand? Or what is, what is, you know, in your opinion, and, and, you know, I know Applying that stuff actually, which is kind of a core reason for talking about this with you here today, but tell us a little bit more, what you think AI can help with in the coaching world and then, you know, tell us a little bit how you're applying this.
[00:15:44] Koen: Um, I think it's important to understand where AI can help and where AI can't help. Um, and I think we need to be aware of where AI can't help. I mean, they can. Um, when there are, let's say, big pieces of data and they can, they are way quicker in analyzing that data than the three of you, uh, the three of us, some combined, right?
[00:16:06] Um, but being very creative and knowing the specific context in which it needs to do that, that, that, that deeper analysis, that it doesn't know. That means we need to feed the context. Um, um, so I think that's, um, that's really important. So if you give the right context to any kind of AI tooling, like ChatGPT, I'm a big fan of ChatGPT, I'm a big fan of Notion AI, I think, and you have enough data, he or she can help, like, I still know like what gender is AI there, but like, I think it's neutral, but they can really help to, To, to, and then there it comes again, like I have this massive list of things I want to develop when it comes to coaching and I rather ask AI in the right context for the right period of time.
[00:16:55] I ask it to concise it, to make it digestible, to make it actionable and I can use all these kind of specific framings of And he or she, or at least AI, uh, neutral there, but they will, they will give something back where I can work with, where I can think like, Hey, does this resonate with my context? And of course the first or the second or the third outcome of anything from a ChatGPT prompt or another AI tool will be perfect.
[00:17:23] But what I always say it's 70 percent better than what you, the three of us are now doing when it comes to coaching and development. So, and there it already helps. Creating this structure, creating any kind of ideas. I can even ask AI on specific, let's say, coaching competencies, because I will talk in specific competencies for specific roles, job roles.
[00:17:47] I could just ask, Hey, this is my situation. This is where my first line leader or my specific rep, SDR, AE, you name it. is struggling. This is where I want her or him to get towards. Can you come up with any kind of examples? It can be role plays. It can be training exercises, for, uh, to get there. And I ask even, um, AI to help me as a, as the coach with what are the tips I need to focus on.
[00:18:15] And again, it will give me all kinds of output. And I have actually framework where I can make it a little bit more tailored towards the context again and like a little bit more human. but the most important thing for me is it saves time in preparation. So I can focus on the coaching and then hopefully like what we said like less than two hours.
[00:18:35] Because everyone directly says like, yeah, I don't have time. I have like this day to day going on. I need to jump on this call. I have always like urgency calls in, in, in, in rollercoaster startups and scale ups. But if you use AI in preparation, there's no excuse for yourself to focus on the real coaching, which is still, I hope for all us as leaders.
[00:18:56] We want to develop people. We can't develop people. We can't grow our businesses. Um, and otherwise you also have like an intrinsic motivation problem, I guess.
[00:19:03] Toni: Hey there, sorry to interrupt. I just wanted to take a second and say that this show is hosted by Groblox. This episode simply wouldn't exist otherwise.
[00:19:12] That's why I wanted to tell you in 15 seconds why a company like SuperSide use Growblocks to run their go to market at 50 million ARR. It's really three things.
[00:19:22] Full funnel visibility. See the entire bow tie and monitor performance, a common language, Shared metrics, definitions, and no more data objections, and better go to market meetings, being able to spend the time discussing problems, testing solutions, and assessing next steps. That's it. Back to the episode.
[00:19:42] Mikkel: So you're almost, it sounds like you're almost using it as a sparring partner to a degree, actually, which, which for me kind of also resonates. Like just one example, I did try and prompt GPT for this episode since AI was here, but I've not played enough with it yet to be, you know, a prompt engineer, but you can still get something that sets you in a direction where it's like, Hey, actually this is not fully there, but I like where it's headed.
[00:20:06] So that gave me these ideas. Is that kind of how you're also using it?
[00:20:11] Koen: Yeah, it sharpens, it fine tunes it, it, it, it automates, it's fast enough, like your way of thinking. Um, and actually after, after the episode, I really have like a cool tip for, for both of you, because I did also something with AI, which you will be very surprised off all your beautiful episodes.
[00:20:29] I put into like, uh, um, so then it can do the full transcription. I put it in not AI from, from Chetty Petit, but from Notion. And analyze everything, every key takeaway, key learning, et cetera, from all your key posts with like, um, again, so I learned something when I listen to, um, valuable, uh, stuff from experts which you are inviting into, in this case, your podcast.
[00:20:54] So I can then leverage that knowledge to upper my coaching game. I
[00:21:00] Toni: think that's, I think that's kind of pretty powerful, Deep. Um, do you have like one, can you do like one specific example to kind of really bring it down to earth for someone? Um, where, where the situation is, Rep has that specific problem and that's how ChatGPT help or help the manager or whatever?
[00:21:20] Koen: mean, maybe first the, the, the, the coaching framework. So what you can do, for instance, in ChatGPT, and then I will, I hopefully get back to your question. Sometimes I derail a little bit, so keep me accountant there. So if you ask a ChatGPT, I just use now ChatGPT as a function. I said like, Hey, I'm a GTM sales leader in a, um, scale up up to X amount of ARR.
[00:21:44] I'm leading this and this, I mean, for myself, I'm leading, leading this, uh, region, which is at this stage I want you to come up with a coaching framework for a AE. To develop on all their, um, coaching skills to become the best performing AE in the SaaS industry in Europe, just, but you see like all this nuances of, of make it, trying to make it more specific.
[00:22:12] Like give me an overview of the 75 key competencies needed. To get to watch this goal and poof, of course, I mean easily in less than 15 seconds, it spits out like 75 coaching. Then I'm just going through it and I ask it actually to cluster it. So I said, Hey, in your next prompt, please bring this down to the, to, to the most impactful 25, uh, coaching competencies.
[00:22:40] And I just repeat again, the specifics of, of prompt one and cluster this into five core topics, five core groups. And please return it into a table. The thing is, I think eventually as well with coaching and everything which I'm trying to, to coach towards people, it also needs to look nice, right? So I just ask like five main cluster groups and then per each cluster, five specific competencies.
[00:23:08] And so I'm asking for instance, and I'm actually working with a very, um, um, actual example. I just came actually from a call with one of the reps, which I'm coaching on the side as well, because I'm, I have my sales manager who is coaching. But, um, in this case, he also asked for additional coaching on, I want to have more control post demo in my call or after the email on how to get towards, of how to keep control over a sales cycle.
[00:23:34] I mean, awesome. Just ask it, ask tips to ChatGPT. Like, Hey, I've done the demo on two or three key levers in my demo conversation. And I want to keep more control over the deal cycle, want to better understand what it does, what does it take. To get toward a signature or a deal or what you name it. Ask this specifically and again, like I really focus on the post demo part in a meeting Um with my champion and it just spits out a few like Tips or examples and then i'm asking based on this outcome.
[00:24:08] Can you provide me with any kind of role plays? So either the rep himself or me as a coach can additionally role play on this specific competence You Again, I don't have to tell you I mean I can show you the outcomes like it's nice It just gives me some some some some input for myself, which I think ah, boof I write it down and directly I can as a coach I can apply this in in a day to day with the rep Yeah, and then the last thing I know I'm always rattling about this topic But I found very important once we are doing this and then I come back towards one of the post I Stole from you guys when after the KD conversation What does good look like?
[00:24:48] Does this work? Yes, it's proven once or twice or ideally more than two times in practice. I write it down. What does good look like? I document this as well with my rep so I can buy in and we can actually start teaching it as well to make it consistent for this person, but as well for the teammates in the team.
[00:25:06] So it, for me, it always directly comes down like, hey, you're going to practically apply it. And if it works several times, because of course one time or two times can be lucky, then I document it as a what good looks like practice. So he can be proud, in this case it is a he. He can go back towards his teammates.
[00:25:23] And maybe do peer to peer to peer coaching rather than again, like I have to do it. So this, in this way, you also make it more scalable and fun.
[00:25:30] Toni: Yeah. A quick follow up actually on, uh, because you kind of touched on two different topics here. One is you talked about the framework and then you talked about an example, just to finish the thought on the framework itself. You have the, you have the table, you have the five groups and, you know, out of the 25 different topics, you're likely not going to go to a rep and say like, now we need to get graded all of these different things.
[00:25:52] It's the next step here to, basically kind of rate them or rank or, you know, grade them basically.
[00:25:58] Koen: the, the most important element of all us is even like when we, when we go towards annual planning or, or everything, if you put something top down on people, Whatever the person in the role, it's not going to work. It always needs to come intrinsically from a buy in. I have the feeling that I had a say in where we agreed on.
[00:26:19] That's the same with your buyer. Otherwise the buyer never going to buy from you, right? So what is very important if you have built this framework in a ChatGPT, for instance. Again, pull it out. I build it fully in Google Sheets because that's the most practical, not like fancy tools you need to purchase.
[00:26:37] Make it compelling, so visual, so that also helps with events, the buy ins and indeed what you're done asking is, so I put those 25 competencies per role. It can be SDR, it can be AE, it can be first line manager, it can be even, Nice thing, people in our team picked it up as well, like the CSM leaders also did for CSM or for account management.
[00:26:55] And then you ask like rate yourself and very, very straightforward one, two, three on that specific, on all each competency in each cluster. But I want to understand the why. Why are you rating A1 or A3? A1 is I need to improve. A3, or you can also do like a 1 to 5 skill, it's fine. Um, and A3 is no, I'm, I'm, I'm good.
[00:27:18] I'm perfect at it. No need to. I want to understand the rationale from, from him or her behind it. I do the same thing in the rating and only those elements Where we really see like the biggest like mismatch between what I think you need to develop and what you think you need to develop There we go into a real Debate discussion to see like hey, but I think and especially then it comes of course me as a as a coach Like hey, I know that you those three things You need, according to me, to really get towards this promotion, get towards your personal goal, get towards being one of the most successful in your role.
[00:27:54] And I think the alignment between, um, that, that's even more important. Because then, if we have this buy in, we can ask the AE or the first line leader, depending on the role, to, Hey, now it's up to you. You are accountable. We schedule it for bi weekly in our agendas. You own it. I'm here to help but it sounds so it's it sounds almost like oh if we execute it like this It's gonna be perfect.
[00:28:20] It is not but I think it's really it's a process to make this work and Repeat this every quarter. If you haven't in the first quarter, you've done this coaching and you haven't improved on two or three Competencies, please keep them if they are still the most important In that quarter, because otherwise, uh, we're going too fast.
[00:28:41] So just check in every three months, three months. Did we make the progress? Yes. Okay. Then we can move on with maybe all the three, or it can also be four. It can also be two competencies because I want you at the end, if we have to perform the growth cycle. So we have actually two in a year, like annual, um, mid annual, which is like a little bit less formal.
[00:29:00] Once a year, very formal. I don't want to hear, Oh yeah, I hit my quota 85 percent or I hit 110%. No, my question will always be first. Where did you develop on? Where are you proud on that you really develop as a skill set? Because again, that comes back towards this, this, this personal goal and achievement and proud and ego.
[00:29:19] And so yeah, always a long, a long answer to your question, but hopefully it gives some context.
[00:29:25] Mikkel: So you mentioned one thing that kind of made me reflect back to the last time I ran structured coaching, which is you, you end up with these categories and people kind of need to rate themselves and it has to be intrinsic, right? And what I saw happening over and over again is, you know, what people gravitated towards?
[00:29:44] The middle. It was like so common for a lot of folks to be like, yeah, I don't want to say I'm bad, but I'm not great. I don't want to say I'm great. Maybe that's like a cultural thing to a degree, maybe. But so how, like once people have, you know, filled in those boxes, do you then challenge them or have a, like, how do you, how do you navigate that part?
[00:30:03] And then I guess the next step is you're going to end up picking one you want to improve. What kind of process do you then run with folks?
[00:30:10] Koen: Yeah. Yeah. And again, I think, um. There comes the difference between, let's not say like a good manager or a great manager and actually I also wrote a post about it. Maybe we should stop mentioning it a manager. You're not a manager. There comes KD again. We manage processes, we lead people. So we're actually more a coach or a leader than like we are a manager.
[00:30:33] And if you as a manager or a coach don't dare to challenge your IC on their thinking, What are you doing in that role? I mean, then, then AI can coach this person, right? I mean, because then he just repeats what, what, what, what, what the IC is saying or what the first line leader is saying. So I think it's really important.
[00:30:53] Again, I have a job description. I know what you want to reach. This is your personal goal. If you want to reach this personal goal, you need to hit, I mean, you need to hit the targets and the things set for this, for this role. And in order to do so, I'm strongly in the belief that those three things are the things you need to improve.
[00:31:08] So prove me wrong that you don't think, so again, it can be some friction, but again, I think therefore, you need to spend properly on a quarterly basis, a review of are you and me still aligned? Because again, like if, if I said it actually this morning, again, I think I've said it a few times to one of these coaches, it's like, I don't, I don't, I don't want you that you need every bi weekly coaching, but I see that we can bring you towards this point of this personal goal you want to reach.
[00:31:37] I leave it up to you to decide. And if he listens to it, I mean, he knows, but I think he's like a quite of like a stubborn AE who is very intellectual. He knows what to do. Um, don't, he's not like directly asking for like help and, uh, no, let's say also especially not for me. I mean, he's not directly reporting it to me.
[00:31:56] Um, but then after a few weeks, when I see that he comes to me on Slack and over other things, and he, he texts me in Gong. It's like one of the tools we are using for our, for our Gong, uh, the recording analysis, et cetera. Um, He comes to me and asks for feedback. He asks for coaching. Um, that's for me to sign, at least that we are aligned and that we both want him to develop.
[00:32:17] So yeah, it's a mutual understanding and agreement, I guess. And that's not always, uh, easy, but, um, that's your role as a manager.
[00:32:24] Toni: So if I were to kind of sum some of this up, um, in connection with AI, right. Kind of it, um, it helps you to, you know, build a framework. Uh, or at least get started. Right. Um, I've, I've tried to, I've tried to kind of build a framework once and I immediately gave up. So kind of having, having ChatGPT or something else to help you.
[00:32:45] You know, outline it, create it, um, you know, give you an idea and then, you know, you can tweak this. I think this is one thing. Um, and then I think, so then human process takes over self rating discussion, you know, where do you think you have the best process and then, um, or impact. Um, and then once you figured this out, AI can jump in again and help either the coach or the coachee on here a couple of, you know, examples, um, how you could improve this skill here, a couple of ways, like a role play of what you could do yourself or what you could do with, uh, with a mate or what you could do with your manager in order to improve here.
[00:33:23] And then it switches back a little bit to, to the human, uh, because then it's really the, um, making sure that there's buy in, making sure that there's intrinsic motivation. And making this also part of a real process, right? Having actual stakes in this, in terms of, we're going to talk about it, you know, quarterly, biannually, annually, we're going to, you know, probably connect it a little bit to your promotional path.
[00:33:45] And yes, numbers also play a role, Mr. Salesperson, because that's obviously how this game works. But, you know, my first question, you know, when we have the review will not be, give me your quota completion numbers. It will be where have you progressed in your skills? And I think, um, this interplay between those, um, between those, you know, two, I would say, um, the, the, the, the coach and then the, the help from the air.
[00:34:12] I think that's pretty interesting. Right. And also. Me just listening to this, by the way, also de bullshits this whole thing, right? Because it's, it's not, it's not that, uh, the notion AI or chatGBT is suddenly gonna solve all of those problems. It's helping both parties to get better at these things. And how?
[00:34:32] Well, because it has Uh, such a massive amount of data it can access, summarize the whole thing up, you know, give it to you in the, in the best way possible, and then you guys can use it, right? And I think that sounds, that sounds, uh, extremely compelling. And also. Copyable by like everyone, right? This is not a, Oh, now I need to hire AT Kearney to give me this coaching framework.
[00:34:56] I need to pay a million dollars. I need to hire KD. You should probably still hire KD by the way. Um, but it can get you started pretty quickly. Um, and then it can, you know, if you are as your, as yourself, as a manager, as a leader, if you're consistent, I think then you can actually kind of leverage some of these things. You know, over time as well.
[00:35:18] Koen: beautifully summarized. Yeah. And again, like it helps two things. It helps you to really become productive because all we want to start, we want to do it, but where to start. So indeed give some framework, some guidance. And again, we all know, uh, online, uh, whether it's this Yakko winning by design with all the amazing blueprints or KD, go to YouTube, listen to, you don't have to invest as a, as a personio into KD.
[00:35:45] You can listen to all his YouTubes and he actually shares everything almost for free. And you can build your own. That's always a thing. However, we all know that's where craftsmanship comes in. If you then hire or put Jacco on stage, then you know, poof, it's on. Or you ask KD and you know, Really, if you listen to a training with KD, it's, it's insane.
[00:36:06] Like how the man can like get like an entire room, like first line, second line, VP, CRO, like they get it. They buy in. So that's of course the craftsmanship you're buying with a person, but the most important, you don't have to, I always say, like, even if, when it comes to, cause I always need to put some persona into, of course, these kinds of things, like if you want to scale your HR maturity on the level one to 10, where are you currently at?
[00:36:29] True. Three? Okay. Tomorrow, do we need to have a ten? Or are we good if we make progress, progress over perfection, towards a six or a seven, right? So you can start with those basic frameworks which are out there. And again, the AI can help because you can ask the paid version, which is of course has access to the internet or any other AI with directly access.
[00:36:51] What is out there? And given what is freely shared online, and I have quite some other cool stuff coming up on this topic as well, capture this, let AI analyze, and let's AI bring it back towards a meaningful best practice checklist, action item, you name it. And again, it's not perfect, but it's 70%, which is better than we are currently doing it.
[00:37:16] Um, so yeah,
[00:37:18] Mikkel: So I'm thinking, should we end on a question from chatGPT? I think, yes.
[00:37:24] Toni: I will have another question after that.
[00:37:26] Mikkel: Why don't we take it now
[00:37:29] Toni: Uh, Koen. What, um, what are you and I doing in Antwerp in a couple of weeks?
[00:37:35] Koen: for sure. I need to bring some, um, some beer from Haarlem in my pocket, um, and teach you and, and let you experience and enjoy like what it is to drink like real Dutch crafted beer from Haarlem. That's for one. So you have to do the same thing from Denmark. And then we are getting to like, having some fun with Andre over Belgium beers, because I lived for, for almost a year in Ghent.
[00:37:56] So I think I'm also quite experienced like in the tasting there. So, uh,
[00:38:00] Toni: I think the hook I was waiting for was, we're going to be at We Are Sales. Um, it's an an Antwerp. Um, and then we actually going to have, what, what is the label of this kind of a pavilion executive, um, gathering, uh, where we're talking about how to drive efficiencies, applying the ref architecture framework.
[00:38:19] And, uh, you and I will be talking about this a little bit and then running the session.
[00:38:24] Koen: No I think it's the most better answer you can give on this topic because I think as well like as Pavilion We are a Banalux chapter and we've made sure that we finally also are coming to Belgium and because we have a lot of Belgium Belgium operators who are Sometimes driving from Ghent or Antwerp towards Amsterdam because with their most our meetups are actually taking place from Pavilion in Amsterdam So, uh So now we finally can offer something as an aftermath with WeAreSeals, the sales conference where Toni is able to speak.
[00:38:51] And then we are indeed going to do a workshop on how to apply revenue architecture or full funnel visibility in a very practical way. So actually I'm really looking forward to watch that topic.
[00:39:05] Toni: That's it. So what's the AI question?
[00:39:08] Mikkel: But you can't kind of bamboozle me taking it almost to a segue to the end question. But I think let's still end on the AI question. because basically, you know, I had to filter out 9 out of 10 questions and this is what we're left with. And I think it's a little close.
[00:39:21] What's up, Pops? So, stop. What's like one advice, you want to leave the listeners with if they want to implement AI? Okay. In their sales coaching. What do you want to have folks leave with today?
[00:39:34] Koen: As always, start doing it, doing it consistently. Yeah, no, and again, like, uh, on the really last note, because that's like where I'm a really big fan of like, and, and, and I think maybe you've seen some of my posts in this topic as well. So all this framework and, and, and asking for, for, for role plays and exercise is all good, but it's still like quite generic when it comes to output.
[00:39:57] I want to listen to the credible voices out there. And if you, for instance, go on LinkedIn, If you only follow the top 25, and I follow, I think, way more top content creators on all kinds of strategic operational and technical levels on GTM. I mean, I've now built this library for two years, fully with AI.
[00:40:15] And that's like a reading example. I want to build a library of all the great knowledge out there. So the, the likes of Jaco or, or KD, they post so much valuable stuff. Chris Walker on, on all elements. I actually take those posts. I archived them in a library and it took me a year. To think of what can I do with this library?
[00:40:35] Because it's nice if you have a lot of posts and a lot of information and a lot of data, but how can I apply it consumable, concise, so people can take it? And there comes AI in place. AI now summarizes everything of those posts. There are 2000 of those posts. And if I have a question, give me the three or five best disco post disco questions I need to apply to get more control.
[00:40:58] Over this deal cycle where we, where we discussed about, he just spits out five practical questions. I can ask of, I can ask in three minutes when I now jump in a few minutes on a customer call. Start doing it and, and do it consistently. It, it will really change a lot of all the, the BS, which we are sometimes mentioning, I don't have time for this.
[00:41:21] Yes, but it's still like a hype or whatever, and it won't impact my job. It won't impact your job security. It will impact your job if you don't apply it and then your competitor go ahead with it. So good luck with that one
[00:41:35] Toni: Koen. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today. Talking about AI, uh, really looking forward to meeting you, um, in Antwerp real soon and, um, yeah. Uh, if, if people like, uh, listening to the stuff, hit subscribe or follow whatever it is you're kind of doing. Um, and then see you next time.
[00:41:51] Have a good one. Cool. Bye bye.