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Making capital allocation decisions in low information environments and with alot of uncertainty is hard. This show talks to people who do this every day and teases out how to be good at it.
Martin Tobias (00:01.634)
Hello, and this is the first bet. Every successful investor gets interviewed about their portfolio, the wins, thesis, firms they built, but very few people drag them back to the moment before when they were still sitting on the sideline with their own money, no fund, no brand, no mandate, and wired the check anyway. And that's what we do here at the first bet. I'm Martin Tobias, and I bet three ways as a CEO, as a pre seed investor, and also at the poker table.
My guest today learned to code when he was twelve back in Belarus, spent twenty years shipping software at Google and Facebook, and then with no MBA, no finance pedigree, no GP role, bet his own money into over a hundred startups before anyone gave him a fund to manage. And five of them became unicorns. One of them was Instacart. He wrote that check at the seed when the grocery delivery was the punchline. He's now
Managing partner at Geek Ventures, currently deploying, I think, out of a twenty three million dollar fund that most VCs you know, it has a very different thesis around immigrant founders. I'm sure we'll talk about that. Ihar Mahaniok, welcome to First Bet.
Ihar (01:19.531)
thank you Martin. Really glad to be here.
Martin Tobias (01:22.157)
well I we've known each other for a long time. We're in a couple groups, and I think we're even in a couple companies together. But what I wanted to do was to have you share with us the you know, one or two of the early investments that you made either as an angel or with this fund where, you know, you didn't know much, but you know, you you you saw something you liked and maybe help us we'll get to the
decision frameworks that you use to make those decisions. And that's what I think listeners here are listen are looking for is how do you make a decision when you don't know a lot. And especially around Instacart. I don't know if you were thinking about this, but I was you know, before that in Web Van and a couple other things, it seemed like a category that was incredibly had a negative sentiment around VC, and yet you you took the check anyway. That might be interesting to talk about. So tell me about an early check and
Some of the things that you wanted to how how you made the decision.
Ihar (02:25.622)
Absolutely happy talk about Instacart. So one important thing about decision framework is that it evolves and it has to evolve, right? So I invested in Instacart more than about fourteen years ago, right? So and I'm learning and my decision framework now is different from a year ago, and obviously from 14 years ago. But back then, of course I knew about Web Van, and the key thing that stood out for me for Instacart was that that it wasn't that it was similar to Webvan.
But that it was similar to Uber. I already was a user of Uber and I was impressed how seamless and high quality it was. And of course I followed the concept of gig economy. I don't remember if back then the term gig economy already existed, but it seemed to be the the Uber's revolutionary approach that we will get kind of random people to be our supply of labor.
Martin Tobias (02:57.764)
Ihar (03:24.014)
To who will just do part-time jobs to drive people around. And Uber took the specifically transportation of people angle. But there's so many other things. It was clear that so many other jobs that people can do in their part-time. And driven groceries just made sense. So especially given that it's as big or you know comparable, maybe bigger, bigger market than transportation.
and of course might not everybody might need a taxi, but everybody needs food, right? So it's it became clear that they apply the known marketplace dynamic that worked for Uber to a huge market. An important angle was that by the time I invested, I already operated in one neighborhood of San Francisco. I think they only had Trader Joe's at that point, maybe one more store.
Martin Tobias (03:59.079)
It it became clear that they are
Martin Tobias (04:15.241)
yeah.
Ihar (04:20.308)
And anybody from one neighborhood could order. So they already shown ability to sell. They shown ability to actually deliver to their sell both on the B2B side to actual trader Joe's, but also on B2C side to actual customers. So I saw the huge potential. I saw kind of that was one of the first Uber for X companies. If you remember, there were several years when all the rage was.
Martin Tobias (04:25.785)
They should have been to a wall actually if you are there.
Martin Tobias (04:38.611)
Right.
Martin Tobias (04:45.458)
Yep.
Ihar (04:47.898)
to build Uber for X companies and Instacart was very clear Uber for Groceries companies back in twenty twelve. So that's very simple approach and it worked, right? So and it w it was kind of first entrant into the food delivery market and there were many more but it was it's successful still.
Martin Tobias (05:12.977)
So yes, I agree. So what was different was that they were taking an asset light approach with this gig type thing, whereas prior attempts, web van, I don't I think they raised a couple hundred million dollars and they were buying warehouses and trucks and people and it was it was giant giant asset heavy thing. So it was a different approach. what about the team and everything? how did you
Ihar (05:30.926)
Yes.
Martin Tobias (05:42.074)
How did you meet them? How did you discover the opportunity?
Ihar (05:44.727)
So I that was a case where I actually had less insight on the team. I knew they were in YC and I already understood that YC is actually very good in interviewing the team. So kind of on that particular deal, I trusted YC judgment. And just to be like transparent, yeah, so that there were some other there were other companies where there was no one to rely on, right? So probably around the same time.
Martin Tobias (06:03.012)
It was YC.
Ihar (06:13.518)
I invest in Pandadoc, they were not NYC and that was out of my judgment on the team.
Martin Tobias (06:19.408)
So tell us about the Panda Doc thing. What did you find interesting and it wa it wasn't a a an Uber for X? Like what was the thing that was interesting there and how did you meet the CEO?
Ihar (06:34.008)
So when I invested in Pandadoc, it wasn't even called Pandadoc that it it was it was a SAS for salespeople, for quotes, basically for back and forth for salespeople and their customers to redline quotes and contracts. And I met it was very like every interesting investment is unique in how you find it. Pandadoc was unique that the only company ever in my history that I found through an
Martin Tobias (06:53.377)
Every interesting value.
Ihar (07:03.454)
online competition kind of online demo day where it was also I think 2012 or 2013 they participated in a video pitch competition which was fully remote for 2012 it was it was a big difference the big thing zoom was not invented yet but they participated with the video and they won the competition and I looked at other participants and I decided to reach out to them and I I reached out to them it was my outbound and
Martin Tobias (07:08.228)
How interesting.
Martin Tobias (07:15.884)
Mm.
Martin Tobias (07:30.98)
How about?
Ihar (07:32.361)
And at the same time, I had people in common with them, right? So I had through a few friends of mine to validate that people that founders of Pandadoc are real, there's no no red flags. And I spoke to them. They were obviously less established and less senior than Instacart founders. and they were building software. So and they were building software in the world where
There was it was fairly early in SAS wave, right? So obviously Salesforce already existed, but other than that, there was like not that many. I think DocuSign already existed and
Martin Tobias (08:13.453)
DocuSign did exist, yeah, I was an investor. And what was Pandadoc doing that was different than DocuSign?
Ihar (08:18.368)
At that at that time they didn't deal with just signatures, they dealt with red lines and document evolving. So basically reconciliation of contracts between seller, between vendor and the buyer, right? So it's like and quotes like you know, this particular set of payments on the particular set of milestones and the but and the buyer sends back modification, so on it was kind of a very evolved Google Docs for salespeople.
before signature and then they they added signatures after I invested and then they do me went all the way to Pandaduck. But the idea there for me what was critical is that this was not their first company. the founders already built agency before this was the first time they raised capital and they knew how to work with B2B customers their previous business was
Martin Tobias (08:55.981)
The idea there for me was for free to go is that this was
Ihar (09:14.166)
between like web studio and helping people to you know find customers online. So it was also B2B but this time they were trying to build something something scalable and what is important that by the time I invested I saw that they have customers. I actually ran the competitive analysis and I found their computer in Silicon Valley that had less ARR.
Martin Tobias (09:28.641)
And what's important was that I invested I saw that they have
Martin Tobias (09:42.27)
That's the MR.
Ihar (09:43.027)
and wanted higher valuation. So that was and I was impressed by tenacity of the founders. And in the end, tenacity is one of the like basically important qualities. So they were creative, they were resilient, they were they had tenacity and I ended up investing in this particular case based on the I like the founders, I like the space and it was cheaper. I think it was like about five times
Martin Tobias (09:55.105)
So there you go, they cover around.
Yeah, I think it's university.
Ihar (10:12.034)
cheaper on validation than Instacart. and since then by the way, valuation was always an input in my decision because in the end, upside and risky word always takes into account the entry valuation. so yeah I think if if Pandora was valued to the same as Instacart I wouldn't have invested.
Martin Tobias (10:19.467)
Sure.
Martin Tobias (10:31.134)
Yeah. Okay.
Martin Tobias (10:36.23)
Okay. But but but but Instacart when you invested had a little more traction and live customers even than Pendant.
Ihar (10:43.072)
I think the Instacart I think the biggest difference in that when I came in in the Instacart I just got lead lead commitment from Hosla. And that was the main reason. And I think Hosla gave them twenty. but and that was before Sequoia, Sequoia went into the next round after me. But they probably were at similar traction numbers. The difference is that I think Instacart had more to build because they were in the real world, while Pandadoc was just pure software.
Martin Tobias (11:14.053)
And Instacart had Costflow, so that's a very positive signal as an investor. So let me ask you for both of those. You're an engineer, turned investor. how much did how technical were the the founders of those two and and how much does, you know, going into the technical approach of a company factor into your early decision?
Ihar (11:17.366)
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Ihar (11:41.973)
so one interesting thing is that you know I've always gravitated to a good balance of business and technical, right? So and I've never was like focused on purely highly software technology startups, right? So I know that some engineers wouldn't invest in Instacart because it seems much more like operational in real world and yeah.
Martin Tobias (12:08.195)
Easy. Yeah.
Ihar (12:10.124)
much less technology. Of course, though a technology to build and match everything is actually pretty complex, right? And Pandadoc itself is also like it's a product that's like more you know it's it's like it's clear the you know you can write a PRD and build it if you want, right? So so for me, what was always more important is that yes, it has to have some technical mode. And back in twenty twelve there was no vibe coding, there was no like clot code.
Martin Tobias (12:37.98)
Yeah.
Ihar (12:38.158)
So you actually need to go and write it. So it was important that they have written it. And even if somebody wanted to clone let's say Pandadog, they would need like half a year or a year, right? So back then. With Instacart, to clone Instacart, you needed to do more than just code, right? So you needed to like go in the real world. And so for me, going into depth and just do review their code before investing was never a key component.
What is key for me is that of course I was important for me to understand that they have technological approach, right? Because there are some companies that try to run the whole company by like an MBA who doesn't even want to hire any technologists, creates a bunch of I don't know, land landing pages and you know a spreadsheet and then claim that he will build a unicorn. He will not, right? Or she will not. Right. So that's important. But
Martin Tobias (13:21.915)
Yeah.
Martin Tobias (13:32.121)
Yeah.
Ihar (13:37.214)
So both Instacart and Pandoc had a proper CTO with proper credentials that could talk, shop with me about technology. And that's was the for me the more important component, right? So they have a right technical talent. That's
Martin Tobias (13:51.503)
That that that they had a guy who understood hard tech. And certainly back then it was ha having that person was much more important than it is today. So I don't know. I know that your thesis has evolved, you know, since then to be very immigrant focused. Did you have this idea of immigrant back then, or tell us how you added this lens of immigrant focus to your early bets over time if it wasn't part of these two?
Ihar (14:19.864)
So I had to come up with a thesis when I created Kick Ventures to differentiate the fund, right? So when I was fundraising. That was the first time when this f when the clear formulation of immigrant thesis came about. It was about five years ago. But before that it was always I'm an angel investor, I'm I'm looking at all companies and then we'll see what I like. But when I was raising for the first fund, it was important for my LPs to understand.
Martin Tobias (14:26.35)
I see.
Ihar (14:49.656)
What differentiates my fund from other funds? And one thing that I realized, you know, I moved to US in 2013, and a lot of companies I invested in, including Pandadoc, including including Instacart, including people AI, which became a unicorn, and I invested before YC, right? So they were all built by people who immigrated to the United States. And I realized that this is my angle, this is my advantage, and
I you know I found that if I were to focus on subset of startups, you know, and every fund needs to focus on some subset of startups, you cannot invest in everything and you know, I realized that focusing on the population which outperforms and there is a lot of stats showing that immigrant founders outperform in the US and at the same time finding this amazing
Martin Tobias (15:24.644)
That's the every point for this comes up.
Martin Tobias (15:33.165)
I realized that what depends on the population each of the books and this level.
Martin Tobias (15:41.347)
Yeah, yeah.
Ihar (15:49.549)
you know, there was also a question, what's your value add? How can you sell yourself to founders? I found that immigrant founders benefit the most from value that's most natural for me, and value that's most natural for me is to help them with connections, right? So I am I'm a network builder, I am a connector at heart, I like working with people, I know thousands of people, and whenever I invest in somebody, I try to connect them to at least dozens, maybe hundreds of other.
Martin Tobias (16:01.784)
Basically, yeah.
Ihar (16:19.106)
People, right? Investors, angel investors, potential employees, sometimes even co-founders. So I, you know, I I found a C level CRO for one of the companies I invested, and I found like several lead investors for some other companies. So and immigrants who are less connected in US while being incredibly smart, you know, and destined for success, is the where it was obvious I can help.
Martin Tobias (16:36.704)
And integers are less than next step in the US while being in integrated this bar.
Ihar (16:47.48)
Right. But but I also want to clarify is like it's always help, right? So I always thought about investor being like you know, a non-essential aspect of a startup, right? So I only invest in a startup where I believe the startup doesn't need me. Startup will be successful anyway. I want to join because I want to be part of the success, and if I can help the success to be 10% faster, 10% bigger, great. I'd love to be helpful.
Martin Tobias (16:47.989)
Yeah.
Martin Tobias (17:17.397)
Yeah. So it seems like the immigrant lens, it was something you were doing already, maybe subconsciously, but then when you had to raise capital, it it turned out to be something that LPs wanted to understand. But it also sounds like it was authentic because you yourself was an immigrant. That might not be the right lens for other capital allocators to come o up with if it wasn't authentic to where they came from.
Ihar (17:43.163)
It's important to be authentic, right? So it's like and understand also to connect to the founders, right? So it's like it's easy for me to connect to the founders. Just la few days ago I was talking to an amazing founder, you know, very, very established. I cannot talk in detail because we didn't close the deal with with them, right? Who is dealing with much bigger funds at their seed round. They're trying to raise like, you fifteen million seed round. And we are like kind of small fish, right? So we would invest like half a million, right?
But this founder wants to work with us because he's an immigrant, his co-founder is immigrant, and we invest in immigrants. And we can talk the same language. We have and by language, I don't even I mean like virtually, right? The same issues of immigrants, right? So and he wants to be part of our community of immigrants and he wants to support our mission. It's like, yeah, it's amazing. And there are so many other missions that people can support, right? So that based on their
Martin Tobias (18:18.067)
Right.
Martin Tobias (18:29.375)
Sure.
Ihar (18:42.035)
on their lived experience on or what they can
Martin Tobias (18:45.313)
Right. So I think that's an important one that I don't think anybody I've talked to on this podcast has yet talked about, which is having an investment thesis and a value add which is authentic, which attracts certain types of investments to you that align with that. that's something I think a lot of investors don't do. what I wanted to do is go back to those first two th the two capital allocation decisions that you made.
You told us why you made the decisions. I wanted to get for the audience what were some of the things that were the case against doing those investments at the time that were going through your mind? What were some of the people saying? Were people saying, you're crazy, that's stupid? People have already done, you know, grocery and it was bad. What were some of the things that were arguing against making those investments at the time? Was it other potential investments for that money? Was it, you know, other people in your head? What were some of the things, objections to
Either that yourself or other people put up there that you had to get through.
Ihar (19:47.181)
So that's a very good question and often we don't remember like why not for the things that we invested in. Of course I looked and I think Pandadoc actually spent more time thinking about than Instacart because Pandadoc felt a little bit earlier and a little bit less de Villasure. But I think what the risk reward just felt right. And I you know I made something like hundred fifty X on Pandadoc.
So so I definitely definitely it was the right decision for me. But I think the biggest against was that it's so early that it's hard to clearly see the mode, right? So how hard it is to duplicate it, how hard it is to repeat it. Then another thing, can they actually scale? I think by the time I invested they had I don't know 100k ARR or maybe 50k, something like that. They had some sales, but
Martin Tobias (20:16.753)
Yeah.
Martin Tobias (20:34.45)
Mm-hmm.
Ihar (20:43.822)
Who knew they will go to hundred million AR, right? So or how much they have now, probably more. And yeah, so that was the case, the main case against is that can they scale? But my one important thing yeah. But at the same time, the I think that it's always about risk reward, but also it's about ranking and competition in your own world, right? So as I was just starting, I didn't have
Martin Tobias (20:57.869)
Can it be big enough?
Ihar (21:14.154)
I don't know, I didn't have hundreds of startups to compete in my head with Pandadoc. Of course there were there was a very simple as I said, I already had a startup that was similar, that I found similar to Pandadoc, and I don't remember the name, but it was more expensive with less sales. but probably people were like more like Stanford like. But and Pandadoc won won that later, right? So and I only found out obviously the result. With Instacart, I think that
Martin Tobias (21:18.139)
Mm-hmm.
Ihar (21:43.775)
Again, it was like Web One was 10 years ago, and Instacart was had a clearer mode because it's harder to just go and repeat it, right? So I'm like, yeah, let's go try. And in the end, it's easier to say why not for companies that I didn't invest in, and almost always why not just basically to be simplified that I felt some other deal it was better, right? It's always about competition and
Martin Tobias (21:44.463)
Dealing with it
Martin Tobias (21:48.992)
What's happened here?
Martin Tobias (21:53.839)
Yeah.
Martin Tobias (22:00.218)
Thank you.
Martin Tobias (22:03.586)
Almost always. Why not?
And right now for example in
Ihar (22:13.194)
Right now, for example, in Geek Ventures, our approach to do about one deal a month, right? So it doesn't it's not strict, but it helps us to see, like, you know, to basically keep the bar. And we cannot suddenly do five deals a week. It just will not work. If we see five companies like a week, we will basically stack rank them and we'll try to pick one, right? You could sometimes do two deals a month if it's absolutely you know, like unbelievable.
Martin Tobias (22:31.203)
Yes. People think it's
Yeah, yeah.
Ihar (22:42.68)
But it will be an exception. It's always about some sort of
Martin Tobias (22:44.675)
Yeah. There's always opportunity costs. And at the end of the day, it comes down to which one. and the question of how big it could be, or you know, how easy would it be for somebody to copy, that was the same question. I was an early investor in DocuSign. And the comment it was hard to raise money because a lot of people are like, signing on your phone, you know, Adobe could copy that in five seconds. Why is this a business? And that was a risk when we wrote the check in the beginning.
And what they ended up doing was turning it more into a platform with the signing order and the emails and stuff like that, which which were was additional workflow on top of the core technology of signing on your phone. So many times it's going into being more of a platform. And I think that happened in Instacart. If you think grocery delivery is bad, well, it's bad if it's asset heavy, but it might be good if it's asset light. And then the question is, can you build the asset light network fast enough?
Ihar (23:41.547)
One thing that became pretty clear to me early on is that can some big tech company like Google, Adobe or Microsoft just build that? It's not a real thing because at least until now, until you know, vibe coding and it's i i the big companies would never go into a small thing, right? So Adobe ended up building Adobe Sign long time after or buying, I don't even remember, long time after already
Martin Tobias (24:04.077)
Maybe that
Martin Tobias (24:09.015)
They bought it.
Ihar (24:11.338)
achieved you know exit velocity, right? So and yeah right now there is there are things that so the real thing is that when something just accidentally happens and people never you know this is what happens now, right? So like if people can use Chat GPT to just, you know, get their answers, they will not buy your software that gives them the same answers, right? But you shouldn't be afraid
Martin Tobias (24:22.07)
that when something just accidentally happens and people never
Ihar (24:38.136)
That some big tech company will build exactly the clone of your product.
Martin Tobias (24:42.398)
Mm-hmm. No, definitely. So let's also go back to the beginning. I mean, I don't know how much your check was relative to your net worth at the time, but I think in both of those, you said the confidence came from different places. can you tell us where the confidence came from for Instacart? It was that Kosla had given them, primarily that Kostla had given them a term sheet or
Ihar (25:07.054)
No, I think back then I I wasn't even you know aware much about Kosla you know track record and everything. Sequoia was much bigger than but it was I think yeah, again it was YC and and the fact that they already had delivery, right? But yeah, I I think I would and the thing is that happy to tell a bit about like
Martin Tobias (25:17.384)
Okay.
Martin Tobias (25:24.062)
It was Weissy.
Ihar (25:35.992)
couple one or two deals from last few years because again our as I said, our framework evolves, right? So and I
Martin Tobias (25:45.971)
Okay. Yeah, well tell us about about a newer newer one and focus on, you know, how did you gain confidence in an environment that's very competitive or that is hard to build in?
Ihar (25:58.061)
I think the deal that I want to talk about is Cytronic and thankfully the guys just did a big public launch several weeks ago, so I can finally talk about it. But we invested out of Geek Ventures about two years ago, sometime like twenty twenty four July or so. And at that time well so basically we invested on incorporationslash pitch deck stage. Right. So they
Martin Tobias (26:01.364)
Okay.
Martin Tobias (26:20.744)
Basically being like one of the
Martin Tobias (26:26.526)
pitch tech and really great one
Ihar (26:27.704)
They didn't have anything besides a pitch deck. And but it was very quick to decision on our side. And there were several things. So they were what they're building is a network of fully automated warehouses for e commerce fulfillment. Amazing business, I think. And they just publicly revealed, they have a video, but they basically they're operational now.
Martin Tobias (26:37.33)
Experiment. Well they're building
Ihar (26:54.018)
Back then it was just a vision. Let's build automated warehouses for fulfillment, for basically bring the e commerce into the robotics world. And to me, it was like bingo, finally. And several things that came together. First of all, e commerce as a whole is like a trillion dollar business. fulfillment and logistics separately is trillion dollar business, right? So it's it's it's just an intersection of a huge, huge markets.
Martin Tobias (27:13.788)
Yes. logistics separately is critical. And it was obvious to me for many years that all e-commerce deployment and reality block. People are
Ihar (27:23.914)
And it was obvious to me for many years that all e-commerce is growing and will keep growing, right? People are buying more and more stuff from their phone, they're not going out to the malls anymore, so this will keep growing. so demand for you know delivery will keep growing. And at the same time, the team has already had long experience with e-commerce fulfillment. They built two
Martin Tobias (27:36.964)
anymore so this will take the way you know delivery will take them and at the same time they should actually add a long interest epox that they built two properties before in space when they are house they have proven that they know the market in and out they know of stuff and they know the
Ihar (27:53.091)
Companies before in this space, ship and airhouse. They have proven that they know the market in and out, they know how to sell, they know the they know the customers they will sell to, and they know the issues. They know the issues that the typical like pre automated pre robotics warehouses have. And so basically, these are by the way, immigrants from Canada, and this was very clear case of the
Martin Tobias (28:04.77)
And I know that an issue I know that issue that like three people create robotic firehouses.
Martin Tobias (28:14.535)
Let's give it this by the way, emitters
linear ways about the running people, right? And the number of ones might get the bottom would be very good for just number one.
Ihar (28:22.796)
Right people, right market and also right time, meaning that you know, robotics five years ago I would be very reluctant to invest in robotics. But two two years ago I started like feeling like two, three years ago, I was like, Yes, robotics is finally here. It's clear enough that you can actually put it that it's not just, you know, research thing. You can actually put it to real commerce, real business. And they proved it. But right now they are already
Martin Tobias (28:41.787)
What the you know?
Ihar (28:52.414)
you know delivering. So it's it's great. right huge market, team with experience, using new technology at the right time with this technology is like why now answer was perfect. Right. And yeah so and the deal was like you know we got access and we're really thankful to the founders that we we got chance to invest.
Martin Tobias (28:53.895)
So it's it's great. right here's market in the SPDS technology.
I know I'm just correct. Right. And yeah, so I'm gonna take it
Martin Tobias (29:19.32)
Okay. So that was two years before and they just launched and now they've built their first warehouse. They have customers and and they have revenue now. But at the time it was the intersection of a bunch of big markets and an experienced team who under and some new technology that would unlock an old problem in a new way, basically. Yeah. Okay.
Ihar (29:42.508)
Yes. Yeah. In general, like disruption of old markets with new technology is one of my favorite approaches, right? Of course AI and robotics is what we invest in exclusively right now.
Martin Tobias (29:55.529)
And why specifically on that one, and I I I like it, why did you get comfortable that building new warehouses? Because a lot of people, I'm sure Amazon's doing it every day and their warehouses are just adding robots, right? So there there could be the incremental approach to upgrade the e commerce infrastructure versus the build new. What got you confidence in the build new strategy versus the incremental? Because that's how most e commerce people will do it is incrementally for robotics, right?
Ihar (30:23.128)
So yeah, I think this is already a minutia the sort of like a details. For me, it was here's the thing is like in general, I don't invest in like this many companies in the same market, right? Of course, there are some funds that do like I don't know, e commerce only or like you know, logistics only. For us, we only have like a few bets in logistics and e commerce, right? So for me, it was less important whether they would do new or incremental.
It was more important that they are operating a huge market and these people know what they're doing and they are applying robots. I would have backed them if they told me they are doing you know modifying existing warehouses. This is a case where, especially early on, I trust founders to figure it out. And if first iteration doesn't work, you pivot and you do something else in the same space. Right? So it's very, very important for me. So it's like yeah, it's like in general I like backing
Martin Tobias (31:16.875)
Okay. So the team was good enough.
Ihar (31:22.644)
experienced founders and a big it's basically my my current framework in the last couple of years is like finding really knowledgeable founders that know this market in and out that can explain to me how they approach it in such a way that I feel like you know I'm out of advice to you. Right. So it's like I'm just happy to be along for the ride. Right. So and and also of course I still need to make my own decision on whether I believe this market is growing, right?
I wouldn't invest in like in a shrinking market or in a very limited market. So yeah.
Martin Tobias (31:50.551)
Right.
Martin Tobias (31:54.518)
Yeah. Okay. Well, that's great. So you just summarized your current thesis. What what would be the well maybe maybe that's it, but in closing, what are the sort of two or three replicatable frameworks that you use to make early decisions now that other investors or CEOs could use?
Ihar (32:19.552)
Yes. So I always when I look at a deal, I always look at the people. And one important thing is it's like I when we invest early, we invest in a person, in a CEO leading the company. Like for example, for me, who is a CEO, even if they have like three or four co founders, right, is the most important thing about the company, right? And
Martin Tobias (32:27.574)
People.
Martin Tobias (32:35.756)
Yeah.
Ihar (32:48.814)
if if I don't see a clear leader, one leader, if I don't see somebody who makes this company happen, then I wouldn't invest, right? So and it's it's often about a person, right? So and by the way, I've noticed that sometimes big companies buy MA, another company just to get their CEO in house, you know, like how Snowflake.
Martin Tobias (33:01.172)
Yes.
Martin Tobias (33:12.576)
Mm-hmm.
Ihar (33:13.89)
bought Niva and the guy became CEO of Snowflake, this kind of stuff, right? So it's like that sometimes this is all about the one person, right? So and I love investing in startups where it's it's that person is what making it happen. So and that's why one of the my biggest like you know my personal thing is whenever I speak with a founder, I always start with like tell me about yourself before this company. Don't tell me about your current company. Don't pitch me what you're building.
Martin Tobias (33:30.92)
That's what I want.
Martin Tobias (33:42.65)
Yeah.
Ihar (33:43.544)
Pitch me yourself. And and my what I want to I want to come away impressed before even talk about the company. I want to be in the situation where like, man, I impressed so much that I want to invest in anything you're building. So now tell me what you are building. Right? So it's like that's my favorite approach. Right. So
Martin Tobias (33:56.35)
Right.
Okay. So a fo a a founder who's somebody, you know, might back the whole thing. I I had that experience. I was at a conference one time sitting at a table and Elon Musk happened to be at the table. And within five minutes, you're like, I'm gonna give this guy money to do no matter what he wants to do. I didn't even know he was really Elon Musk at the time. This is like fifteen years ago, right? But you you meet those kind of people and that's e exactly what you wanna do. Okay.
Ihar (34:18.242)
Yeah.
Martin Tobias (34:29.82)
Well, thanks for those frameworks and I really appreciate it. Where can people find things about you? LinkedIn, Twitter or your website?
Ihar (34:39.33)
So I'm I'm mostly on LinkedIn. I'm also somewhat on Twitter. Of course we have a website, geek.vc. And yeah, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn. Message is probably the best. You can also send me an email. You there's also a form on our website to pitch us a companies. Yeah. Thank you. I would love to hear.
Martin Tobias (34:56.474)
Okay. Thanks, Ihar. I appreciate the time.
Ihar (34:59.695)
Thank you, Martin.