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What if you could hang out with successful women lawyers, ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team and systems, mastering money issues, and more; then take an insight or two to help you build a wealth-generating law firm? That’s what we do each week on the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. Hosted by Davina Frederick, founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer –– every episode is an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve (and will pay you on time), and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love. The goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue so you can fully fund, and still have time to enjoy, the lifestyle of your dreams.
Welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. What if you could hang out with successful women lawyers? Ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team, and systems, mastering money issues, and more. Then take an insight or 2 to help you build a wealth generating law firm. Each week, your host, Devina Frederick, takes an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve and will pay you on time, and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love.
Intro:Devina is founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and her goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue so you can fully fund and still have time to enjoy the lifestyle of your dreams. Now, here's Devina.
Davina:Hi, everyone. And welcome back the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. I'm your host, Devina Frederick, and my guest today is Erin Anderson. Erin is a national flat rate hiring manager for support staff management and associate attorneys at small and medium sized law firms. Her fee structure makes it much easier for law firms to scale and avoid expensive recruiter fees.
Davina:Erin, who's certified in workplace culture, brings her knowledge of culture to ensure the new hire is not only the right technical fit, but also the right long term culture fit for your law firm. So please join me welcoming Erin Anderson to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. I'm super excited to have her here because this is a hot hot topic right now, How to hire those right fit staff and lawyers. So join me in welcoming Erin. Hi, Erin.
Davina:It's so good to see you.
Erin:Great to see you too.
Davina:It has, been a minute. We've talked before and tried to do this before, and we had a rescheduling. So I'm glad we were finally able to make it. Why don't you tell people, I've been given an intro, but I'd love it if you would talk a little bit about what you do so people have a good understanding of that.
Erin:Sure. So I hire for small and medium sized law firm. A lot of them tend to be female owned and led, which is always very attractive during the hiring process to candidates. And I do it on a flat rate basis, which is very unique. So I do not do the 20 to 30 I think it's going up to 35% next year, rate recruiter rate, which makes it extremely difficult for a small law firms to scale.
Erin:And so when they go to hire their admin or office manager, I was hearing, well, now I can't afford my associate. And so I came in with a different structure where it's a flat rate fee. It is a small fraction of that 20 to 35% so that they are able to go ahead and scale and actually hire for all the positions that they need to hire for. I'm also certified in workplace culture, so that's definitely a big component when I hire that's incorporated into the job description, but also the interview process with all candidates.
Davina:Okay. Wonderful. So I've got questions that spin off from that. Tell us a little bit about your background and what led you to this, getting in the recruiting space and the, career placement space.
Erin:Absolutely. So I was into toxic work cultures myself. I used to be in the finance world and saw a lot of issues, with culture and why that led to what I was experiencing and the protocols that were not necessarily enforced. And I started off in the career transition world and encountering a lot of attorneys that were moving from big law specifically because of culture and seeking a better culture in a smaller law firm. And then I was just doing a lot of LinkedIn and training, workshops for law firms.
Erin:And that's where I started hearing about, this need for more of a flat rate fees that they could have afforded. But my culture aspect of the work that I do really goes back to me not experiencing those great cultures that I was hoping that I would, but making sure that the people that I hire are going to be in a culture that respects them, but is also a good fit for the firm to increase their retention.
Davina:So let me ask you. When you say culture, tell me, first of all, what culture means to you. And then Sure. Give me an idea of what what are some elements of a good culture, you know, as you define it.
Erin:Yeah. Yeah. Good question. I think culture is you know, I think of it on a spectrum almost because there's different aspects of what makes up your culture, and I think it's very individualized. What I think it's not is when I'm interviewing a firm to see if we're a good fit and they tell me, oh, just look at the missions and value statement on our website.
Erin:That is not your culture because it really doesn't speak to the culture of everybody at the firm. Values really aren't culture. Right? It's more of we have to follow the values and respect them working at this firm. And that's more of an expectation and a qualification to work there.
Erin:I think of culture more as everybody who works at the firm contribute something different, and how are we fostering a sense of community that makes people want to stay as I'm sure we've all experienced, maybe not as much as business owners, but even so sometimes in addition to what we did before, people are constantly poached by recruiters. I don't work in that way. I I operate very differently, but we're still getting those messages. And so it can be very intriguing even if you, you know, maybe you're getting paid the right salary, you're comfortable. But when that message comes in, if you don't feel like you're in a really strong culture, you're probably gonna at least answer the recruiter and figure out more about the role.
Erin:But what I find is the people that are staying at these small, especially women owned led firms, are the ones that are respecting everybody in the firm in terms of flexibility. So how have we created a culture where we're giving, you know, it's not gonna be the same amount of flexibility during COVID, but we're keeping that hybrid work environment, and then we're also respecting what's going on from, a family responsibility standpoint. So if we're hiring these young associates and they continue to grow no matter their gender and they're having children, there's going to need to be a little bit more flexibility. And how are we evolving to make sure, that we're being inclusive?
Davina:Okay. So when you were talking with because you you've kind of worked both sides of this and that you help small business owners for fine, and you're also working with people who are looking for placement. Yeah. What kinds of things are they telling you beyond what you've just already shared? But let's go a little deeper.
Davina:What kinds of things are they telling you are most important to them when they are looking, to work with a small law firm? Is it money? Is it benefits? Is it what kind of benefits? Is it something else?
Davina:Is it just Sure. Flexibility, work from home some days? What is it?
Erin:So it's shifting quite a bit. I know at least when I was applying for jobs, it was always money, and I think most of my peers were the same. It was I was in business school, and so coming out, it was who could get the higher salary at that point and be able to afford the new apartment. Where now it really isn't the case. And you have, much like in European countries, I think it's very similar now where, like, a lot of people are living in the basements of their parents' home or they're living with other family members.
Erin:And so and I they're very transparent during an interview because it's a remote position I have to ask you to do you have a place where you'd be able to work from home? And that has really shifted in into salary is not their priority. They would rather work on a lower salary. And even if it's not hybrid, they wanna make sure that they can go run to a doctor's appointment, and they don't have to take a PTO day. I hear that over and over again, not feeling like they're under constraint even if they have a really high billable hour requirement.
Erin:That's not a big deal to them as long as some of that work can be completed at home. Where I see pushback are these firms that want 5 days in the office in New York City, for example, where a lot of people live in the surrounding area. And it just makes it less attractive when they have competing offers. So often, we'll we'll lose a candidate, not just because of salary, but because the firm isn't flexible on their, you know, work from home policy, you could call it.
Davina:Right. Right. So, you know, our audience is made up of smaller law firms, and I know New York is kind of a a very different scene. That's where a lot of people go to work for big law. And Sure.
Davina:And certainly small firms can't compete with that. Or do you think this factor is what makes small firms more competitive as sort of this ability maybe to be more flexible and let people work from home or develop a different culture. Do you think women owned firms kind of stand out in that area or not based on what you're seeing?
Erin:Question. Yeah. So I only hire for small law firms, and throughout the nation, but a lot in New York, obviously, because I'm based here. And, definitely, so many of the candidates that I interview, especially for looking more for that mid level 5 to 7 years, you know, I think of it coming from the banking world as, like, they've already put their time in. They have the strong foundation.
Erin:They've made the money, and they're recognizing that they didn't really have a life. And so a lot of the things I hear during these interviews is I didn't have time to go find a partner. I didn't have time to have children. Now I'm worrying about egg freezing. A benefits question that'll sometimes come up.
Erin:Are these firms offering any support for fertility treatments? This is definitely a lot more common within the last year or 2. I was not getting that question before. You know, how how is it working in terms of benefits? Does this cover just me or my partner and my children?
Erin:So that's definitely changed. Where I would say the women owned and led firms stick out specifically is all from relatability. So if I'm, recruiting for a firm that, is run by 2 mothers, for example, there may be something in the job posting catering to that because people wanna work for people that understand it. I hear that all the time, how they're really appreciative of they get it. They have kids themselves.
Erin:They're able to run this firm. They understand if my kid gets sick at school, I might have to run them home, you know, and then and then come back to work. And so I would say it really comes down to a point of relatability with the women owned firms.
Davina:Mhmm. Mhmm. I just I'm I'm kind of, like, floored by this idea that somebody would expect some support in fertility treatment, out of their employer. Right? I don't I I I don't I can't imagine of the small law firm owners that I've talked to that that would even occur to them or even be a benefit they would offer.
Davina:And how does that is that common that that's come up?
Erin:It's yeah. It's becoming more and more common that it's coming up. I would say the competitive factor, what big law does, still offer as a benefit, is a lot of these larger law firms will offer those fertility benefits. And so similar to a corporation. Right?
Erin:A lot of tech companies offer it. And so when we have candidates coming from big law going into small law, that's when we typically see that question. And then, yeah, it's obviously very expensive for a small law firm to be able to offer that. So we usually counter it with what we have. You know, the firm may offer a 100% fully paid health insurance.
Erin:And so that maybe $500 they would have been paying a month can go towards, like, an HSA or to their fertility treatment or something else. And so, honestly, it gets very strategic in the final stages when we know we have an offer out. It's almost being proactive and knowing in this today's higher market, it's so competitive. They may come back with a negotiation. And how are we going to make sure if fertility treatments comes up, if PTO comes up, how can we make sure to take the culture or a unique benefit that the firm offers and be able to counter with that?
Erin:That the firm offers
Davina:and be able to counter with that? And and and the thing that comes to mind too is this idea of sort of, uniformity. Like, if I'm if I have my law firm and I'm hiring for my law firm, I may have somebody that comes along that has no interest in having children. And how do I make that right or make that balance right for them if I've got somebody else who wants a fertility treatment benefit. Right?
Davina:So I I you know, from a business owner standpoint, that's a very interesting little puzzle that, I'm shocked really that somebody's asking for that. Because day in and day out, when I work with business owners, that's something that I've never heard. It's never come up. Things that come up are things like, health insurance and retirement and these kinds of benefits. And so that's interesting.
Davina:Yeah. I wanna shift gears a little bit and talk about LinkedIn. Because one of the things that's very interesting to me in working with women law firm owners is a lot of times when they're hiring, they go to Indeed. They go right to Indeed, and then they just put an ad on Indeed, and they just let it sit there. And one of the things I've been encouraging a lot of people are really not just encouraging, but telling them they have you have to be more creative in this market.
Davina:Because a lot of markets, it's highly competitive. There's a a low employment rate for, lawyers in a lot of markets. It's hard to compete. Sure. You can get lawyers to put their applications in.
Davina:And so one of the things I've, you know, said to people over and over again is you need to try a multi pronged strategy, and you might have to be more proactive. So, LinkedIn is an obvious tool and yet a lot of law firm owners don't use it because they're not on the platform. They don't like the platform. They're not looking for jobs. So they don't think, oh, job people who were seeking jobs will be on LinkedIn as a platform.
Davina:Tell me what your experience is with LinkedIn and why do you like it as a platform for this?
Erin:Sure. So I would say the first thing with LinkedIn, I've I've been on it for quite a while in terms of LinkedIn. You know, the speaking, the training aspect. And the number thing one thing that I like about it is that I can go investigate a candidate a little bit further. They have a profile on the platform that is public.
Erin:Indeed is kind of like an extended paper resume where, you know, it's like if somebody puts a testimonial on a website, they technically could have went and copy and pasted that text, or it could be unfortunately not actually somebody's quote. Where on LinkedIn, if we look at a recommendation, somebody has to go there and leave it themselves, which is extremely powerful. And it's the same thing with LinkedIn when we're talking about a job post. I look for consistencies between a resume and a LinkedIn profile, and the second I don't see that, it's a huge red flag. Are they trying to cover up that they've jumped around from because I just saw this last night from position to position.
Erin:I see it a lot, and then they have to tag the fur well, they should tag the firms that they're working with. And so if they didn't tag it, it's usually a red flag. Right? You know, potentially, is that not actually their employment? And so there's ways to look further into what it is that they're doing.
Erin:The third thing is the activity section. So are these, people engaging in conversations that are positive? You know, are they avoiding conversations like politics, religion? I always look at the activity section. The other thing you'll find in activity section is, did they possibly just start a position somewhere and celebrate it on LinkedIn, but not put it on their resume?
Erin:You'd be surprised how many times I see that so that they're not showing, like, wow. I've been at this firm for 6 months. I'm not gonna put it on my resume, but it is being celebrated on LinkedIn simultaneously. The other thing is the featured section. I've seen a lot of, controversial blogs, believe it or not, written by these candidates, on various topics, usually not having to do with their career necessarily, but it's in their featured section.
Erin:And so this employee would potentially be a representative of your firm. Is that the type of employee that you wanna hire? So that fits that's really why with LinkedIn. The other thing I would say is I'm really not a big fan of Indeed because it doesn't give us this extra access. And in addition to that, it's not targeting people in the same way.
Erin:So LinkedIn uses better AI filters and just filters in general so that I can target the right people. You know, if I want a probate paralegal, for example, I can search that really clear so I can run a job post, but then at the same time, target people. And I'm tagged as the job poster so they can refer back to my profile and say, oh, wow. She's hiring for law firms, but she has a focus on culture which usually draws them into.
Davina:Right. And I wanna be I wanna be clear. When I said Indeed as an example, it could be ZipRecruiter. It could be career builder. It could be, one of you know, it could be WiseHire.
Davina:It could be one of any sites. So we're not singling out Indeed in case anybody from India listening into us. We're just talking about different platforms and how we might need to be a little bit more proactive and use the data that's available. And LinkedIn is a place where people go first thing people do when they are looking for a job is they go in and they freshen up their LinkedIn profile. And so that if you're not I think you're if you're a law firm owner and you're not looking there as part of your recruiting and and networking there as part of your recruiting, you're missing out.
Davina:Certainly, you can use some other platforms like Facebook, where a lot of people are just really engaged at Facebook. They know a lot of people, but it's not the same thing as LinkedIn, which is designed specifically for career and work and that kind of thing. Right?
Erin:Yeah. And I think, you know, when we're looking at other platforms, it's really just access. Right? The other platforms don't give us that online presence, because LinkedIn is the only recruiting site that's considered social media technically. So it's profile oriented with something that's a lot 5.
Erin:We could have a profile on Dean, but it's not like this living profile, like, on LinkedIn that tracks all of our activity. So that's really the key difference, and it's just giving us more insight. I would say with LinkedIn, there's a lot more going on in an effort to improve the platform because it's working for both sides. It's working for the individual and the firm. And so they're constantly looking at how can we make sure that the firms are finding the right match versus just the number of applications.
Erin:I'd actually rather see less applications and more of a match. And so I've seen a lot, a lot of improvement over the past 2 years. Some of it's with AI. Some of it's just creating, better filters. How are they targeting candidates to make sure that they're seeing applications?
Davina:Right. Right. You when you, want something that you said earlier. Let me see if I can remember now what it was because it just went out of my head. Something you said earlier about candidates going on and, they're missing they're celebrating something on LinkedIn, and then they're not putting it on their resume.
Davina:One of the things that I know co crops up as a problem for and I'd like to get your opinion on it. Problem for small law firm owners is someone has been out interviewing. They took your offer. And then a few weeks later, they're quitting because there's another offer that's coming now that used to be death to your career back when in the 90th when I was my you know, gold coming up in my career. If you if you took an offer, you stuck by an offer because if somebody finds out that you took an offer and then left and and took another offer, they're going to think you're not a good person and not very you
Intro:don't have
Davina:a high integrity loyal. Than what you write. So is this something that LinkedIn can help us sort of figure some of that out?
Erin:Question. To an extent. So if they posted or, you know, if it's celebrated at least, then yes. So it's gonna be more helpful than another platform that wouldn't provide that activity section necessarily. It's one of my biggest pet peeves.
Erin:I had it happen twice this summer where we had not just attorneys, but support staff, sign offer letters. And the I will say the offer date was a little far out, which is you definitely there's more risk that you're going to take if it's a further out, start date. But they did after signing it. They went ahead and said that they were no longer gonna take the position. And, you know, as as someone who hires, there's 2 factors here.
Erin:Number 1, I'm never gonna consider this person for another position. They tend to be early in their career. So they have their entire say if they're in New York, they have their entire life to go. They will likely come across me again, and they're going to come across the firm who is highly connected. I'm in woman on law.
Erin:I know a lot of the attorneys in that organization. And so if someone signs an offer letter, say, for someone in that organization, it's probably naturally going to come up that, hey. You know, we hired somebody or think about from a reference perspective. There's so many different issues that to what for maybe another $5,000 more in your salary that you negotiated so early on your reputation is critical as you said. So I definitely think there's ways we can avoid it, but there is always that risk with a candidate.
Erin:And I think that, you know, I always advise firms that we post a job and I review candidates. So when I'm doing a targeted search, I do not go out and seek people that don't have open to work for recruiters open. So there is a feature where only if you have a recruiter license, you can see that. Because what tends to happen is the people that don't have open to work very well maybe just kind of playing the system and interviewing, getting an offer to go back and, negotiate internally. This is something else that happens.
Erin:But if I can at least see that, like, they are seeking, then there's a much less risk for that. But a lot of other recruiters do targeted searches for, just say, the top candidate at x firm because maybe the other attorneys saw them in trial and how well they performed. So you do have to be very careful of that as well.
Davina:Yeah. Yeah. I think you make a very good point about the how how when when we make an offer and then putting some long delay on it and then accept expect people to sort of sit out there and wait until we're ready. Yeah. I see this happen, you know, where, a lot of attorneys talk about hiring slow, firing fast.
Davina:And I'm definitely a fan of firing fast, but I think we need to hire a little quicker sometimes. Certainly, a lot of law firm owners will wait too long until they're in desperate need of somebody before they start looking. And then they may have it in their budget to add them down the line, and so they make them wait, or they don't get the offer letter out. They don't move quickly enough because attorneys are busy. Law firm owners are busy.
Davina:And so they're like, oh, I didn't have my offer letter or I didn't I didn't you know, I let them sit out there. And then I'm wondering why they didn't take my position because I didn't move forward quickly. This is probably some place that, somebody like you really probably can help with. Right?
Erin:Yeah. Yeah. Driving that process? You're speaking my language. It's yeah.
Erin:There's a lot of, you know, where I tend to see this happen a lot is where there's several partners, and it takes so long to coordinate an interview. So when I work with a firm, I coordinate the whole process, but there's still that period of at least, especially in the summer months. Well, so and so is out on vacation. Now this person's out on vacation. You're actually better off going higher when everyone's in the office.
Erin:So even if that's in the fall because we're probably gonna lose candidates. You know, all these attorneys only have so much time, and so they're almost wasting time unless we can all get on board and maybe take that 30 minute Zoom call if you are on vacation just to keep the process moving. You know, a question I get all the time from, partners is, do you think this person's interviewing elsewhere? Of course. Especially because I'm not doing a targeted search for someone who's not looking.
Erin:And even if they weren't, they're you know, everyone's eyes are always open, right, to the next best offer. Well, not only that. I mean, that's such
Davina:a dumb question from a partner because, well, wouldn't you be if you I mean, you know, like, wouldn't you be? Right? Right.
Erin:It's it's always a possibility.
Davina:Expect that. But I do think that's a that that is a very, in the market being as competitive as it is as a small law firm, if you're wanting to add lawyers, particularly if you're just adding your 1st or second, 3rd lawyer, something like that, really being, prioritizing that. If you're gonna hire, prioritize it and make it you have to put it on your calendar and get it done, and it's a higher priority. Yep. And I think sometimes we get sucked into the busyness of things, and we theoretically want to hire, and we start a process, and then we leave people out there hanging, you know, and then you wonder why we don't get candidates.
Davina:So I do think there is a there is a a philosophy that moving a little quicker on hiring is probably better. And if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out because you can honestly take 6 months to hire and still hire somebody who doesn't work out. Right? And I think the what what I see is a lot of perfectionism, particularly with women law firm owners. There's a lot of perfectionism.
Davina:I want I'm looking for the perfect candidate, and I want I want to be perfect about how I do this. And I need the perfect offer, and I need as opposed to, like, the messy middle, can't we just, like, try it? Yeah. And the worst that can happen is they don't work out. And within 90 days, you'll know, and you'll find somebody now.
Davina:Right?
Erin:There's there's 2 things with that. I'd say I recommend a lot of firms to, like, probationary period of 60 to 90 days. I rehire under my structure within 90 days. Honestly, you'll probably know within 2 weeks to 30 days if something's not clicking or if they don't have any work ethic. You know, but there needs to be something in place if there's any doubt about that candidate possibly, you know, or, checking references too, making sure a lot of firm owners will tell me, well, we don't need to check references.
Erin:Who would give a bad reference? You would be surprised. I if I'm if I'm, checking three references, it's very possible. Wanna you know, think about different stages of life these people were at. Right?
Erin:So when were they at that firm? I hear it a lot where they'll be like, you know, so and so has a great personality, but maybe they, you know, they they miss the mark on on these assignments. And it's like, well, they need to be really accurate. The last thing I'll say about that is a lot of homeowners want this perfect candidate, but they're drowning in work, which is why they wanna hire, and then they could be billing these associates out. And so there's a lot of revenue as I'm sure you know.
Erin:Right? Yeah. That they could be making at least even during that probationary period or getting their trading up and running so that they can go ahead and start to bill and make more money. I tried to I really try to get firm owners to look at it from a more from a revenue perspective sometimes too so that they're they're not just looking at the perfect person, but how is this also gonna increase their profitability of the firm?
Davina:Right. Absolutely. That's my yeah. You're speaking my love language. Right.
Davina:And that is that is getting that. And I often will sit with people and do the math and say, this is so much money you can do on the table by, like, sitting on this, but Right. Tell us, so do you identify as a recruiter or not? What do you call yourself? Because I know you have to differentiate, but tell me tell me kind of, like, what you call yourself and how you think you're different besides the fee.
Davina:We know the fee is different. Yeah. Yeah. What how how are you how do you think you're different?
Erin:Sure. I love this question. So I don't advertise the word recruiter myself because they tend to get a bad rap. Right? Because a lot of the times, people are like, well, I used a recruiter, and it didn't go well.
Erin:And I really wanted to come in and I it's not like I have a career in recruiting, or recruiting for law firms. I'm very different in that way. And so I will sometimes use it if somebody's not understanding a model or if I'm getting up and giving, you know, like, my elevator pitch or something like that that I will do recruiting, but it's very different. And so, in addition to the fee, I typically call myself a hiring manager, specialist consultant. I'm really doing hiring consulting because I come in and manage the entire process.
Erin:I'm not just emailing a firm. Hey. Here's some resumes for my database. And I'm not working on 30 positions at a time, so I'll typically take 5 to 10 max at a time. And they're not at all the same stage.
Erin:If I'm at 5 positions that I'm hiring for, well, then the other 5 are probably in final interview offer letter. So I have a lot of concentration on it. I'm in contact every single week with those firms. These firms that come to me and say we wanna work with you is because they're working with recruiters for 6 to 9 months and they still don't have that result. I hire a legal staff management and c, junior and senior associates.
Erin:So that's another difference. And then I'm managing from rewriting the job post to what actually works, how are we showing the culture, to conducting the 1st stage interview so that there's no time wasted. That's also very different. And then I will also go ahead, and schedule all interviews with the firm. I check references.
Erin:My whole thing is, yes, I'm helping you hire, but I'm also trying to save you time so we're not putting it off. I will write the offer letter. The only thing I don't do is background checks. That's up to the firm. But I do it from start to finish.
Erin:And like you said, I'm really staying on top of them so that we're not losing these candidates. So it's a very more personalized experience, I would say.
Davina:Yeah. I love it. I love it. That's and I think it's much needed. We don't have enough of that because so I'm in the process right now now of hiring a a media marketing person, but I'm doing it as a, a contract on a contract basis.
Davina:And so Okay. There's a company that I use and they handle all of the interviews. They handle those they write the ad, they do the interviews, they give me prelim you know, then they give me recommendations and they video the interviews and here you go. And then I get to sort of follow-up with them and then I take it from there. Right?
Davina:So I and I think that's a tremendous service. And I found that very useful for contract, positions, not not in the legal field, but in other types of admin and marketing and those kinds of roles. So I love it that this is something you're offering for law firm owners because I think there's a real need for it. It's one of the big challenges that law firm owners have is we're busy. Right?
Davina:We're you know, if you're growing the firm, you're trying to do everything and you know you need help, but you're almost too busy to get the help that you need. So it's a wonderful, service. How do you think what do you think sort of helps you to get well, let me ask you this. What do you, the res how often does it how long does it take to get results that for most firms? I mean, can you give us a gauge?
Erin:Sure. I would say not results, but completing the process, 30 days to 4 months max. The only time it really takes 4 months is if we're looking for a unicorn. And it depends on how flexible the firm is. Right?
Erin:So when they're saying the perfect candidate, but they need it and there's no flexibility, we're gonna look at 4 months travel. And it depends on the time of the year. The April to June is extremely competitive law firms. Everybody is hiring. And, honestly, October we'll see this year how it pans out, but maybe October to December as well.
Erin:But the most competition is April to June. And so, yeah, it really just depends. Oh, it's very different with every firm, I would say. Yeah. But, no, I love
Davina:the brand I love the range that gives people a range. It shouldn't be 6 months to a year or whatever. They, you know, generally speaking. And I also like that you shared that there are seasons that everybody's looking because I know this is something, we often discuss is, you know, is now a good time to be hiring? You know?
Davina:And one of the things I'm always telling people is in the year, people any point that's like a transition point for people that end of year inner energy, we're going into the new year, new you mindset.
Erin:So a
Davina:lot of people think that means changing jobs in the spring, that spring rebirth energy before we're going into summer. You know? I I so I can see where those are certain seasons. And summer is probably not a big season because a lot of people are traveling and that kind of thing. But maybe just before back to school is if they're trying to change.
Erin:Yes. I would say that there are candidates looking in the summer. It's more difficult for somebody like me to manage Affirm's hiring process just because everybody's on vacation. So it it's that transparent conversation in the beginning. Are you willing to dedicate the time?
Erin:Are you willing to take a Zoom convocation? Can we coordinate everybody, or do we need to wait? Because it's also it doesn't look great to the candidate either. Right? If we're trying to coordinate with all these partners and really nobody can coordinate, then it's not I don't think it necessarily looks, it doesn't reflect on the firm positively, and I'd rather make sure that that firm reputation is upheld.
Erin:And so I'll have that conversation with them. I'd say really the only 2 months that I see a little bit of a downturn is August January, from both sides. So in both of those months, even though it's new year, new me, Affirm was just getting back. They have to tackle any work that they didn't handle end of December. A candidate probably wants that.
Erin:I'm thinking of people who start in January, and they want that, say, 2023 to 2025 on the resume.
Davina:Yeah. I'm I'm thinking it's the it's they're looking in that December time frame
Erin:Oh, gotcha.
Davina:For the for the new year. Right? So
Erin:They may.
Davina:Starting work starting work in January someplace near. But yeah.
Erin:They might. It I'd say the end of the year, more firms wanna close out those roles they have open.
Davina:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Your, give me, give me some, like I don't want you to give away your whole secrets in how you do it. But are do you use personality tests in your interview process?
Davina:And what value do you think that brings? If you wanna share which ones you like, that's great. If you don't, that's fine too. But what value do you do you think that people should be doing that as part of their process?
Erin:Sure. So two things. A lot of the times when I'm hiring for somebody I work with, like a law firm coach or adviser that has told this firm, maybe as a long term client, you need to hire, and then they match them with me. And so in that case, the person who's doing advising usually has their own chosen assessment. Not that it's their assessment, but it's like a DISC assessment.
Erin:If they go ahead and ish if they want to issue it, I will send that to them, and then they usually analyze it on their own. Second situation is I am certified in culture talk. And so starting next year, we're going to be start starting culture surveys that the firm and the candidate will have to take to look for that match. It depends on the assessment. I find often with personality tests, it can really, limit somebody in terms of being judged just by that test because everything else could be great.
Erin:And the test was the only red flag. What if they were having a bad day and that's when it was due? So just be cautious. I like to I like for people to consider everything, not just the personality test.
Davina:Well, and it may or may not be. I remember taking a personality test one time, and I was kind of at a low point in my life at the time. And I took it. And and then a few months later, I took it again and had a completely sort of different results. Yep.
Davina:And I it was fascinating to me because it was like the shadow self of the person of this person. Right? Mhmm. So it was it was a really interesting thing how the results came out. But I I but I I love personality tests, and I definitely recommend certain ones to my clients too.
Davina:I have preferences. Your, any any final sort of thoughts or recommendations that you have for people if they are considering now, I really need to hire. I need to staff up in the new year. What what should they be thinking about? What should they be doing?
Erin:They should always be one step ahead of hiring when they want to hire. So for example, I have a lot of people come to me and I'll sit during consult, I'll say, when are you looking to hire? And they'll say last night. I jokingly. Right?
Erin:But it's
Davina:Yeah. They're not kidding.
Erin:Really right. They're not kidding and it's not ideal because it just I see a lot of pressure created among other people in the firm, among the candidates. And then what starts to happen is they'll issue offer letters very quickly, which I do not have control over I can advise versus having another interview, for example, checking references, having the background check. And so always, you know, I would start to consult someone like myself or, you know, someone that's in the hiring process 30 to at least 30 to 60, 90 days out from when you wanna hire. Because we'll also advise you what is the salary bracket that you need to pay.
Erin:You may not necessarily know what that is. And so, you know, it's November. If you're looking to do budgeting at the end of this month or beginning of December for next year, if you haven't already and you wanna hire in q one, well, then when you find out the market rate salaries are pretty high right now, it actually might be a q two higher, which then you're even being more proactive. But it's important to know your numbers. And if you don't know what that salary is gonna be, it's extremely difficult to plan for it.
Davina:Right. Right. And I think it's great. I think that's the number it's one of the number one questions that, law firm owners have is, well, what should I pay this person? Right?
Davina:And they kind of, you know, other law firm owners aren't sharing with them what they're paying. And so they're trying to figure it out. And so it's a great to have a resource for somebody to ask about that. I wanna do one follow-up question on the culture discussion that we had earlier because I I have one more question about that. I know we're kinda jumping back, but Sure.
Davina:How can Affirm assess their culture and really understand sort of what their culture is? Because in our minds, we may have as as the business owner, we may have an idea of, well, this is what I think my culture is. Right? And and a new candidate coming in, working there may have a whole different take on it. So how can we get dialed into what exactly our culture is so that we can not only sell it better to people Mhmm.
Davina:But also embody it, really?
Erin:Great question. First would be, I like to interview people that have been at the firm for a really long time. So I will ask who has remained at your firm for 5 plus years, for example. I'll interview them 1 on 1 if it's okay with the partner, then I'll ask them what has made them stay, especially as they're getting these recruiter messages. Some type of assessment related to culture.
Erin:So that's some of the work that I will do when we have these surveys to see what are the consistencies that we're finding so we can more label and explain it to these future candidates. It's easy to say, you know, we have monthly team lunches. We do this. And it's like, well, right, is that a benefit, or is it your culture? Like, what does it really feel like to sit in a seat at this firm?
Erin:What does it feel like on a Monday morning to go to work, right, or the night before Monday starting the week? That's really your culture, not a monthly team lunch. That's an amazing benefit, and we need to sell it. But how and how can that new hire enhance the culture? So making sure that we're we're talking about during a hiring process almost what's the missing piece.
Erin:Right? If I have a firm, for example, whose mission is diversity, equity, and inclusion, for example, that's a that's a big thing today in tonight today's hiring market. How are we making sure that candidate is also gonna to enhance it? And that doesn't mean necessarily they have to be diverse, but that they're gonna be in line with that mission. Right?
Erin:So leaning on the missions and the values is not necessarily your culture, but how does everyone at the form how does everyone at the firm in that community enhance that and make sure that they're followed?
Davina:Right. Right. I think there has to be some intentionality behind it too. Right? So if you want to be attracted to candidates, I think this is something that requires giving it thought beyond just kind of, like, coming into work every day and going, well, I don't know.
Davina:Our culture is, you know, inclusive. And then you look around and it's clearly not. And you because you haven't given it, like, any sort of dedicated I think you have to be intentional about these things, especially in certain when you're at live in certain markets. You know? Correct.
Davina:Right. Yep. So, alright. Well, tell us how we could connect with you and find out more about you if we want to, do so.
Erin:Great. Awesome. Yeah. So my name is Erin Anderson. It's s e m at the end.
Erin:And LinkedIn's a great way. You can definitely, you know, if you follow me, I'll also see what I'm hiring for. So I know a lot of firms like to do that to see what's going on in the market. You can message me on there. Otherwise, assume my email will be in the show notes, but it's info at your brandnetworker dotcom.
Erin:You can email for free consultations. I also provide, free salary comps. So if it's something that interested to know, especially during a planning phase right now, where does the salary stand from a range perspective for what I'm looking to hire for in the New Year? It's a great time to do so. Wonderful.
Davina:I love that. And I I know a lot of people really appreciate sort of that salary count to give them a good idea of where are they thinking the right thing. I know it's been very shocking for a lot of people, in the last year, what last couple of years, what paralegals have an expectation of. And they'll say, well, I could hire an attorney for that. You know?
Davina:So it's really good to get more information about what's going on in your marketplace. Right? So that sounds like it'd be very helpful. Erin, thanks so much for being here. I really enjoyed our conversation.
Davina:I think our audience is going to eat it up because so much good information you've shared.
Erin:Thank you. So much for having I mean, I appreciate
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