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The Pluck is the place for all things plucked strings. We explore how working pros write, record, and play music for plucked‑string instruments—guitar, bass, banjo, mandolin, harp, and more—through in‑depth conversations and real‑world examples of their craft.
Welcome to The Pluck. This is a show about how we write, record, and play music for plucked string instruments. That's guitar, bass, banjo, mandolin, anything with strings you can pluck. Today on The Pluck, I'm joined by Michael Kramer, a guitarist and composer whose work balances structure and spontaneity, the cerebral and the soulful. Now based in Nyack, New York, after years in the Washington DC scene, Michael draws on musical, scientific, and philosophical influences to craft music that feels as alive and dynamic as the questions it poses.
Jonathan:His trio, Superstring and the Cosmic Vibrations, and his co led large ensemble, KW Big Band, are laboratories for a creative vision shaped by daily practice, deep listening, and a fascination with how complexity emerges from simplicity, whether that's in particle fields, groove, or shared silences. He's currently working on new recordings with both projects continuing to explore sound as a way of being in dialogue with the cosmos. So I'm excited to dig into how he thinks about structure, feel, and mystery when he writes, records, and plays. Michael, great to see you again.
Michael:Wow, man. Thank you, Jonathan. It's amazing to be here. And hello to everybody who's tuning in to The Pluck. And, thank you so much for that introduction.
Michael:That was, that was lovely. Yes. I I appreciate all that. Thank you.
Jonathan:So where are we catching you in the the beginning of the week? So for everyone out there, we're recording here on a Monday.
Michael:Monday.
Jonathan:Where where are we catching you this time of the week?
Michael:Yeah. The beginning of a work week. I try to keep a, as normal quote unquote as scheduled as possible and, try to keep as much space on the weekends at this stage for my kids, who are growing. So, now that they're at school, I I just take the opportunity to settle into, a routine, tend to have these kinds of, like, seasonal routines, or sometimes they're even shorter, like months at a time or a month at a time. But I usually try to to define some parameters for myself, like, for a a day, and a week, and a month, and try to have kind of like, I don't know if goal is the right word, but just try to have like a a something that I'm working towards, like maybe a project.
Michael:Mhmm. And try to let that whatever I'm working on at the time, whether it's an upcoming gig or some composition project, some set of tunes. Try to let that structure how my day works. So this morning, I actually had the pleasure of spending some time at the piano. I have a a weighted keyboard, in my studio downstairs.
Michael:And I did that, and I spent a little bit of time on the guitar. And and then tried to set up the space to talk to you. That was that was what was going on today. So so that's more or less where you're catching me.
Jonathan:Right. Right. And for everyone listening, before we started recording, we were we were troubleshooting and, you know, set setting up the mics and the the the angles and all sorts of stuff. But there's a lot that happens in production. Yeah.
Jonathan:So very good. Very good. So so you said you were playing some piano this morning.
Michael:Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. I'm not like a a professional level player at all. I'm very much like a beginner level player.
Michael:But I you know, probably similar to most people who are serious about really serious about music, and especially, people who are interested in digging into scores or are interested in generally in composition or orchestration, and especially people who've gone to music school. Like myself, I have an undergraduate degree in music. So I had exposure to the piano in all of those different contexts even before I started to act like, I actually got a full sized, you know, weighted keyboard inherited, actually, I should say, from my uncle who my uncle is my was my mother's brother, and, he was the only other musician, professional musician in my family. He passed away a couple of years ago in 2023, and I have his keyboard now. So it's it's a there's something about, like, that instrument, in particular that I have this, like, physical connection.
Michael:We were fairly close and we would talk about music. He was always wanting to get a recording from my last gig or hear hear what I've been writing or, we would talk about all kinds of record you know, Brad Meldau bootlegs and, you know, Keith Jarrett records and stuff. Was kind of his bag. And and, so it's cool to sit down at the piano and have all of the those angles that those aforementioned angles, you know, the the composition, the just working through tunes, working through harmony, playing melodies, playing voicings, you know, looking at a score. I I have Mahler one and two Dover.
Michael:It was like, I paid, like, more in shipping than I did. You know? So I'll pop that open and just, like, try to, you know, look at some verticality or understand something about that at the piano. Mhmm. But I also have, like, that familial connection with him, which is a which is a wonderful thing to just kinda like let yourself feel that, you know
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:That connection.
Jonathan:You do you remember when that first that first first experience with him in in your life?
Michael:Man. Yeah. I I actually do. Now that you ask, I've I do remember I My mother got me this I don't remember how old I was, but I was probably like 10 or 11 when I got my first guitar from a pawnshop. My mother got it from a pawnshop.
Michael:And it was an epiphone, like with two humbucking pickups, like one in the bridge and one in the neck. And it was like a cream and it had the head of it was like a Jackson kinda like, you know, shredder looking like you know what I mean?
Jonathan:Yes. Like angle and thin.
Michael:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was it wasn't so thin, but it was like that style. Yeah.
Michael:Maybe Jackson isn't the right. But it was like, yeah, triangular. Mhmm. It was really cool guitar. And and a a gorilla like little amp.
Michael:So probably, you know, it was Thanksgiving. Like Thanksgiving was at my mom's house. So like all my cousins would come and he came over and and it came up that I had this guitar and like, he was like, alright, man. You gotta take me down to the basement and, like, show me. Like, I gotta see it.
Michael:And I couldn't even, like, play anything. Yeah. You know? But he was just like he was just kinda there and, like, encouraging and and sometimes discouraging. Like out of love, you know?
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:Like, know what I mean? Like, this is you know, he had strong opinions about like what was just like any musician probably. Like, certain things that I was listening to that he dug and certain things that I like, he didn't, you know? Do
Jonathan:do you remember what he didn't like that you played for?
Michael:Man. Yeah. Not not too much. Like, wouldn't say like he never liked I I think that like at that time, he was he was like one of the one of the first people to when I played, when I would play either, like, play music for him or play music, I actually, like, with him. He was one of the first people in my life to be, like, you you gotta, like, take the blues seriously.
Michael:In fact, he was the guy who showed me the you know, he showed me how to do this. I wonder. He showed me how to do the He like showed me how to do it. And he was probably doing it with like one finger. But Uh-huh.
Michael:You know? Uh-huh. So, like whatever I played on the guitar, it like at first for him, it it wasn't that, you know. And he was like, listen, man. You know.
Michael:Mhmm. You gotta like this is where you gotta Yeah. Begin and end and everything's gotta funnel back to to that. And so I think, yeah, looking back on that, I was like very lucky to have that in my life. And so, you know, that that's something that comes into the conversation, the fold, especially with the kind of music that I I've dedicated my life to, which is very different from the kind of music that you've dedicated your life to.
Michael:Right? Like, I don't wanna make assumptions about you.
Jonathan:Yeah. Yeah.
Michael:Yeah. Sorry. But my perception of you is this, like, really high level classical guitar musician. With commercial skills and, you know, you're totally like happening and all that all that stuff.
Jonathan:Well, know, it's interesting and like even like with classical guitarists, I know a lot of, you know, classical guys who and gals have who have started have, like, a lot of blues influence. You
Michael:know? Sure. Just
Jonathan:just just like playing around when we were younger in middle school and high school, you know, with our guitarist. We might be like studying classical music, but like, you know, we're wanting to like try out these like Jimmy Page riffs and stuff.
Michael:And, you
Jonathan:know, or BB King and, you know, you know, Robert Johnson things and, you know, and just playing around with that stuff. So like, you know, my my dad in particular was was really heavy into blues. He loved the blues. And so and he played the guitar for fun, and and he taught me my first my first lick on the guitar. It was a little bluesy thing that he came up with.
Jonathan:So it's like Beautiful. You know. You know, so Yeah. Yeah. So like
Michael:So so my assumptions are all wrong. Of course.
Jonathan:No. It's hey, we we wear we wear, I guess, multiple masks, you know?
Michael:Totally. Yep. No. Totally. I no.
Michael:And and that's that's beautiful. And I guess like yeah. That makes a lot of sense because even if you're very serious about classical guitar, you're still kind of playing a guitar and you're through the guitar, you could you're probably gonna encounter like, how can you not? I guess, how could you not encounter Robert Johnson. Or be curious about it.
Michael:Yeah. Absolutely.
Jonathan:Yeah. For sure.
Michael:Totally. It was definitely one of those things though for me that, sorry to interrupt.
Jonathan:No, that's alright.
Michael:Yeah. It was like definitely one of those things that when that when that would come up like later in my development, you know, when a teacher or an older musician on a gig would say, you you gotta take the blues seriously. Like or you you you know, something about holding holding a space for that that music and your development or in your concept of sound and harmony and melody and articulation and and all of that. Like, it it it it rooted back to, you know, the kind of, like, the earliest experiences that I had on in music, really, in in that instrument. So, like, it made sense from that perspective.
Michael:It wasn't like, you know, you have to get touched, like, seven or eight times, really, before you something makes sense. So probably when my uncle said that to me in the beginning, way back when when I was 11, I was probably like, you know, that's not what, like, incubus sounds like or say. Know? Which is actually kind of jive too because they totally take the you know, like, they're totally playing some serious blue, you know
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:Which you understand later. They're like, you you understand, like, that's their, like, accent on, you know
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:On the the on that that history. Like, so but anyway, sorry to cut you off.
Jonathan:No. No. No. Yeah. So so okay.
Jonathan:So, like, this this blues stuff was a real big inspiration from your uncle.
Michael:Yeah. Yeah. At that jazz records too, for sure. Like Mhmm. Later we would talk about mostly like jazz records, but yeah.
Michael:But I I actually remember to like it's funny. I I think about him all the time but I don't think some some of the stuff I don't think about very often and it's cool to kinda take an opportunity to think about it.
Jonathan:Of course.
Michael:One thing, he would say stuff like this that likes would I don't know. Like kinda I'll just say I'll just say what this one thing that he said to me one time. Like, early on, he was like, we were talking about swing music. He was like, man, you know, to me, Willie Nelson swings. And I was like, I didn't know what to do with that.
Michael:Yeah. At that time, we were just talking about what, you know, what swing was. And I guess I was thinking about swing from a not not like I I was thinking about swing from a more, you know, triplets, subdivisions, and and African derived rhythms, and, you know, music that came up through these these New Orleans ensembles into big band era, into all all you know, kind of then all the kind of spreading out, constantly spreading out through the American canonical jazz tradition. Mhmm. And so when he said that, I I was like I I just didn't know what to do with that.
Michael:I didn't like judge it. But I think that like, he kinda thought about things a little bit differently and a little bit out of the box like that. And I think what he meant maybe by like Willie Nelson's swings is that there's like pocket and groove and like propulsion and, like, like a like a rhythmic, like, feel and vibe. And just in terms of, like, placement. Like, not to be, like, sometimes these words can sound woo woo.
Michael:Right? What does it mean by feel? Like, you know, Willie Nelson has like a rhythm player and like also it's the way that he like sings, there's a there's a feel, you know. There's a rhythmic feel and a placement. Like, if you imagine a grid, you know, the way that he's articulating with his voice and emphasizing with his breath and playing his rhythm patterns with his guitar, it creates this, like, forward motion even if the tempo sags or takes off, which some some of those records do both.
Michael:And and I I I think that's more what he meant. So he we would kinda talk about things like that and he would say things to me that were like that, you know. And I think that he wanted me to, like, think about think about stuff like that and and not he also definitely wanted me to not, like, take as written, like, wrote, like, this is the 10 commandments of, like, everything that I was getting from music school. Because he didn't go to music school. You know?
Michael:So he was like I think he was trying to kinda get it, you know, get in the back door and be like, you know, you you don't you don't need all of that necessarily. Like, don't throw it out but like Mhmm. Really develop your own opinions and thoughts and and visceral connection. You know. That's what's more important.
Michael:Mhmm. Mhmm. So Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan:Oh, that's a new one. Willie Nelson for Swings. Yeah. Yeah. Willie Nelson swings.
Michael:He said that to
Jonathan:me. Yeah.
Michael:That's I didn't I didn't say that per se. I don't wanna be like quoted as saying that, but he said that to me.
Jonathan:Right. Right. Yes. Michael's uncle said that. Yeah.
Jonathan:Yeah. Do do you know what song or songs in particular?
Michael:I don't know. Yeah. Don't know what he was thinking about. Think he was just listening to He was like listening to Willie at that Yeah. I'm not even sure what.
Michael:But
Jonathan:Do you think he meant swing or did he mean groove?
Michael:Yeah. That's that's what I was kinda trying to say. I think he was I I don't think he was literally talking about spang a lang, you know? Yeah. I was thinking he was talking about groove and placement and Yeah.
Michael:And like feel, really.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:Like feel.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:I think he was he was trying to get at like what is the, I think he was trying to say like swing isn't like something that's technical. Like Yeah. Swing is something to him anyway. Was something that's moving forward. It has a forward motion.
Michael:It has groove weight. It has a propulsion through time. And so, yeah. It was like his way of thinking about it, you know. Yeah.
Michael:Which was cool. It was beautiful, you know. Yeah.
Jonathan:Yeah. Love that. I love that. So let's let's fast forward a little bit. So Yeah.
Jonathan:So that you're speaking you started guitar around ten or eleven, would you say?
Michael:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, not seriously, but I I wanted That that was my thing was like, there were a couple of kids that I was going to school with, we were gonna start a band.
Jonathan:As as as we do, you know, at that As
Michael:we do.
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:Yeah. So I bugged my I actually wanted to play drums. Uh-huh. And I bugged my mother and and she I grew up in a townhouse in Germantown, Maryland. So like, I think she would have like like otherwise, you know, she would have gotten me drums but like.
Michael:Mhmm. She was just like, there's no way that's gonna like work, you know. So she No. And I think that the reason why she got me that electric guitar was because she was hip to the fact that like if you didn't plug it in, it wasn't very loud at all. You know?
Michael:Right. You
Jonathan:can have some peace and quiet what you want. Yeah.
Michael:Yeah. So, yeah. But I I didn't start getting serious about about it, until probably a couple years after that until I was like 13 or 14.
Jonathan:So like high school?
Michael:Yeah, exactly. Mhmm. That's exactly right. Yeah. And I had, at that point I had a teacher and I'd I'd had two really important teachers early on.
Michael:And, one was Jerry Lynn and the other is Jerry Kunkel. And to this day, two of the most important people in my life, you know, those early guitar teachers. Right? Like, they were just they were like, you know, it wasn't just about guitar. Actually, with Jerry Lynn too, he was he got me reading.
Michael:I I resisted it, like really hardcore. Like, I not not out of like I just and it wasn't what I was into. What I was more interested in, which is something that he also helped me a lot with, was just like learning tunes, like off the off the radio or off of CDs. And and he actually you know, maybe the first couple times we had lessons together, he would, you know, figure out whatever song I wanted to learn. And I had a CD and he would, like, figure it out and then write out the tab.
Michael:And then maybe after, like, a couple weeks, he was like, okay. Like, here's what I'm doing, like, when I'm figuring out. Like, here's what I'm trying to listen for. Like, I'm trying to listen for a bass line or I'm trying to listen for if it's a guitar. I'm trying to listen for some Are they open chords or are they chord shapes that I recognize?
Michael:Mhmm. Know, like, I I remember, for example, I wonder if I can play it. Like, I remember wanting to learn for example, you know
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:Whatever this is.
Jonathan:Yeah. Red Hot Chili Peppers.
Michael:Yeah. Yeah. So like that, and then and then the bridge Under the bridge.
Jonathan:Under the bridge by Red Yeah.
Michael:Mhmm. Yeah. So there that that's like the the chorus has like this f, like like two to to one. And then it's five chord, like a b chord, but it it's this this d shaped triad, you know. And and then the you know, in the beginning was like the the the c major shape, but for d up there.
Michael:And then the f f sharp, but like the e shape like that. So he like showed me that kinda stuff. He was like, you you know, I can like hear the voicing. I hear like the shape and then I just I find the root note. I recognize kind of the interval structure.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:And and then he showed me that for that that, you know, that the Friends bird claw. Like, I never watched Friends, but people told me, like, that Phoebe said that, right, about This is the bird claw. You know? Yeah. Yeah.
Michael:So, like, he he kinda showed me that the d shape. The d shape, but for a b. So he he would like show me kinda how to use my ear and also the logic of the guitar. I I guess, like the guitar logic and the the shapes that you find and that was that was like a huge step, you know. So he was he was like really great at that.
Michael:And then and then when I went, later in high school, I studied with that guy, Jerry Kunkel, was he's also he was the only, like, non family guest when I got married at my wedding. He's Wow. Really important person in my life. And he was an incredible incredible guitar teacher. But, again, like, very serious about, about reading.
Michael:He also another thing that he did that he introduced to me was, like, very early on, like, one of the first couple lessons. He would he gave me some arrangements that were written out of, like, Tenderly and, Yesterdays. And they were, like, like, chord melody solos that were written out. So not only was it, like, reading, but it was, like, the like, the voicings, of the of the way that the melody was voiced and harmonized under. So because he could tell at that point I was fairly adept with the the triad structures and the pentatonic structures Mhmm.
Michael:All the way, you know, all the way up the neck and how they connect. I probably wasn't like aware of the caged system, but like, I knew all the shapes already. So, he probably told me like, oh, you know, there's like, there's a way to think about it. Like, it's called caged and, you know, that's that. And then he but he was the one who kinda introduced the upper structure harmonies and and more complex support of a melody.
Michael:And and then the notion of like actually having having melodic movement that you're supporting. It's almost like this notion of like chords are an illusion in in some ways. You know, really it's just like contrapuntal. Everything's just counterpoint, you know. I don't know how you know that how you think about that or or or whatever but he he we talked about that, know.
Michael:We would talk about stuff like that and so that that was maybe actually, both of those guys got me listening to jazz records though. And and I there was a some like I don't know what it was. There's just some push towards, okay, you're you're serious about you're serious about music. You know, like, Hendrix and you know Jimmy Page and, you know, you know Clapton. And I also knew some of these other guitar players like like I was mentioning from Incubus, like Mike Eisinger.
Michael:He's a really creative guitar player, you know. Yeah. And I and I knew like some, you know, some of the stuff that made their playing work. And I also knew a little bit about Elmore James, you know,
Jonathan:and Mhmm.
Michael:Some of the some of the some of the cats that like I've I heard about because Hendrix, you know. Or Jimmy Page. Like, I I'd I'd I was already into it enough to, like, kinda figure out that question of, like, okay, you you really like Hendrix. Well, what what was inspiring to Hendrix? You know.
Michael:And then what and then look at investigate like what is that, you know. And then really kinda figure that out. So that's how I found Elmore James and
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:And really started to take Dylan seriously because as like a 13 year old Dylan, you know, it's almost like it's like, is this guy joking? Like when you don't have the ear for it?
Jonathan:Right.
Michael:And you you know, you did I'd like we didn't have the ear for, like, those that kind of folk music either. So it was almost like this alien thing. And then, you know, it was like, oh, Hendrix, like, really loves Dylan. And actually, all along the watchtower is a Dylan song. And then you're like, oh, yeah.
Michael:That you know, you kinda spent some time with it and then it you let it in. And and and then you and then you realize the depth of it from there. But yeah. So those both of those guys were were that was where I was going with it. Both of those guys were pushing me towards, like, from that, like, Charlie Christian and Wes Montgomery Mhmm.
Michael:And Miles and, you know, the Joe Pass for two o so records and train, like early train and and cannonball. And for for whatever reason, I I I'm not really entirely sure why I loved I loved that music. Maybe that was why. But for whatever reason, it was like, oh, you're serious about music. You know, you're actually taking this stuff home.
Michael:You're practicing. So this is the music that people who are serious about music listen to and study and play. Mhmm. And And it wasn't like in my household or anything like that.
Jonathan:It was on your own.
Michael:You know, it was something that came at that time and then I got really serious about it. It was introduced later and through that and through that way. So, yeah.
Jonathan:About what about what year are we talking here? If if you don't
Michael:Oh, good question. Like 2000 I was born in '88. So we're talking like 2001, 2000 to through 2003 was like Mhmm.
Jonathan:Okay.
Michael:My I guess I was you know, however old I was then. Mhmm. You know, starting to starting to actually get like serious and like a notion of like serious about listening. That was another thing too that was like a big deal was I probably spent more time I think this is true now too. I probably spent more time listening to music than I have like playing Right.
Michael:Music. And and and back then, that was really important. It was never like Like, I I mentioned the the my guitar teacher giving me giving me the the transcription kind of chord melody things, which again, I I don't remember what they were. I wish I did. But they were probably from a book, like a Melbae book and Mhmm.
Jonathan:A compilation.
Michael:Maybe they were Barry Galbraith. Actually, I think I feel like that's what they were. They they were Barry Galbraith record melodies. Mhmm. But they they would it was never just that.
Michael:It was always, like, here's this and here's a recording. And, like, check out, like like, don't even worry about, you know, reading this thing until you you, like, get the thing in your ear and in your body. So it's like, that was kinda, like, really deeply instilled and I kinda already had that. I I used like, that was one of my favorite pastimes as a kid. My parents had, like like two or three CDs.
Michael:One of them was Paul Simon Graceland and then there was like a Peter Paul and Mary. I was like, they're fine. My dad liked this band called the Fairport Convention, which is a lesser known like British, like, you know, kinda folk rock. Great great band too. So I would, like, I would listen to those records just like on repeat and like have, you know, some snack and like a football and just like throw the football up in the air and down and just listen to the whole, like, Graceland album.
Michael:And so that whole listening thing where my teachers at that time were like, hey, here's, like, here's, like, something to work on and then here's the record. Like, took the record part really seriously. I took the listening part really seriously. That's something that I noticed in some students, you know, which is I don't think it's a bad thing, but it's like some students they they wanna do they wanna do before they before they have something in their body. And again, I don't I don't think it's a bad thing.
Michael:But I I have I I don't know too much about this either. But I have heard like, you know, the Indian classical music tradition. Like, they don't even let them touch. They it starts like really young and it's like really regimented and they don't even let them like play or like touch anything for like years. They're just singing stuff at them.
Michael:And having them sing it back, you know. And you know, it's like listening. It's like, you know, this is like you're gonna get this in your ear and you get this in your body.
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:And so, I guess I, you know, I for whatever reason, I kinda had a little bit of that. And even even to this day, you kinda asked me about my like morning routine. It's more listening. It's like more what I'm trying to check out. I'm like really into the Carl Orr first symphony right now.
Michael:I love that shit. I love that
Jonathan:shit. Yeah.
Michael:It's like, I don't know. I don't know anything about it, but it just sounds amazing, man. And listening to those symphonies too, they like progressively get like weirder, you know? Mhmm. But that's like a big part of my day.
Michael:And it's something that you don't necessarily want to admit. You wanna be like, oh man, I'm doing all this stuff, You know? Right. Yeah. I'm like writing all the time.
Michael:Like most of the time, I'm not. I'm like just sitting there and just like listening and being like, wow. That is amazing. Know? Mhmm.
Michael:How
Jonathan:do you listen? Do well, let me back up. Do you listen any differently now than you did then or I'm sure you do and if so, how? How do you listen differently?
Michael:That's an amazing question, dude. Yeah. There's I I kinda got I have another story for you, man, to kinda answer that question. Yeah. So, like, when I was in college, and I won't say this person's name, because if I did, it would like really embarrass them.
Michael:But he's a good good friend and somebody who was when I was in college at Maryland, you know, there was this group of people that we were really serious about bebop music. And, like, in a dogmatic way. And I think it was very healthy for me at that time. That was kind of I was only, like, listening to recordings that were made between, like, 1942 and 1964. It's, like, really, like, specific.
Michael:It's like anything after that is like not and like, you know, maybe like if if you're gonna listen to something, listen to Louis Armstrong, like, that's okay. It's okay to listen to Louis Armstrong. But so like that's the group of friends and I remember like going to get some food with one of one of my friends from this this group, this peer group Mhmm. Of get and into his car and it's it's it's just like he turns on his car and he's blasting Pardon Me by Incubus, that band Incubus, which is a band that I loved. And dude, the look on his face, man, was like it was like it was like I saw him naked or something.
Michael:It was like I was like, bro, I love that record, man. Like, you don't man, like and I was like, turn this shit up, man. Like, let's let's do it, you know. And and so and that that was like a really crucial point where I I kind of realized at that point I was I was I think it was good. Again, it was healthy but I had kinda developed this like academic, you know, every every time I listen to music, I was trying to think, like, okay, what what's this what's the key center?
Michael:Like, what are the you know, analyzing. Like, all the characteristics
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:Of gathering all the characteristics of each piece. And and I think and I and I do listen to music that way quite frequently, at least once a day for one record, or like one tune. And I and I think that, like, the deconstruction and the the character analysis it sounds so silly say. But I know, I think that that's a really important part of like my development and my everyday, absolutely. Mhmm.
Michael:But like that experience, it definitely viscerally connected me back to that like like listening to just just it's almost like the the pure like pleasure of the experience. Like it it's it's one of those things that you can get into you go deeply into a flow state, which is another kind of thing. It's like, why are we doing this like at all, right? Right. You know?
Michael:Right. Why? Why? What is the point? Like what is the really the point?
Michael:And that that's the point for me. One of the, you know, is that it's like getting into just a flow state where what I mean is like there's only it's almost like time is is not there. Time is not there and all that's there is your sensory experience and your conscious ness even in a sense, you know, just so, like, aware of this, like, aware of of of existence or whatever. And at that time, you know, you you're kinda leveraging this, like, this this auditory stimulus to to push you into the present moment. And that really is how I learned how to listen to music as a kid.
Michael:It's like, I could listen to that that even to this day, I I can listen to Graceland. It's like one of the primal artifacts of my life. It's like that record. Mhmm. And I could just immediately just like fall into it and time isn't there, which is kind of, you know, there's some trade offs.
Michael:Right? Like, if, you know, if I get groceries or something, I'm not gonna put that.
Jonathan:Right. Because you get lost.
Michael:Right? Yeah. I get lost in the moment. I really like I really will. I really will.
Michael:And my wife like is totally aware of this of this thing of like, you know, that I have, can't have music on in the background. Like, it's not like a background thing. I'm actually trying to work on that. Because I'm trying to work on doing that because I think that when you do put music on in the background, like for example, people who work with music. There's something to that.
Michael:I think it it moves it kind of creates like a a forward motion and a flow Mhmm. If you can have it there. But it's hard for me like to But when I listen, when I turn it on, I definitely like am My nervous system is like attuned to like you know zoning in on it. It's like
Jonathan:Right.
Michael:That's gonna be the center Mhmm. Of my focal thing. What were we talking about? I can't
Jonathan:No. No.
Michael:We This is awesome.
Jonathan:No. No. It's good. It's good. We're talking about the question I was asking is how you listen differently now than you did before.
Michael:Yeah. So that that I mean, that's that's kind of it. Like, that that experience of like, you know, like have that I had with my friend, in the car, it was like, you know, like this facade that we're pushing up. It's like we can, you know, it's it's a beautiful thing to hold space of being like really serious about really, you know, specific type of music and dedicating your life to that. But but it's it it's okay, right, to to have this other thing, like, you're if you're just deeply viscerally connected.
Michael:Right? So those two those two ways are listening now as a professional. Obviously, like, I can it's I you know, kinda even going back into the my guitar teacher, Jerry Lynn, what what he showed me of if I'm listening to a guitar, you know, you're just kinda collecting data. Like, you're collecting information
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:About like the the the way the way it sounds and how it sounds. Like, the the production. Like how it was recorded. The like what is is using heavy strings or light strings. Is using kind of a pick are they using?
Michael:What types of harmonies are they playing? You know, like these are just like characteristics Mhmm. And like information that you're gathering and because you have like trained your ear, you can, you know, you can identify these things and they can like inform your your like cognitive picture of of why that music sounds like it does. Mhmm. But the as a kid, was like all about that flow state of just like turning on the record.
Michael:I didn't even know it was called, but it definitely that's what what the experience was. It's like an optimal experience of just turning it on and just like, you're not thinking at all. You're just there. Interesting. And so, I try to I try to incorporate both, you know, both of those ways.
Michael:I think there's gradients, you know, so it's not just two. It's not binary or anything but
Jonathan:Right.
Michael:I try to incorporate all of that, know. I I try to Like, I somebody hit me to I wasn't really aware of Kate Bush, you know. Yeah. And somebody hit me to Kate Bush and so I'm gonna I haven't listened to any Kate Bush yet. But I have it like queued up, you know.
Michael:I'm just gonna turn it on and be like, do I dig this or like what, you know. Right. Just like, is it doing it or is it not, you know. Mhmm. But I'll probably also go back and, you know, listen to Coltrane transitions again and try to figure out how did that magic happen, you know.
Michael:Mhmm.
Jonathan:So you still you still listen to old stuff or you're still like wondering like
Michael:Oh, totally.
Jonathan:Yeah. Like Totally.
Michael:Yeah. But there's, you know, there's like layers. Right? There's there's the physical layer, I think, which is, like, your ability to, like, play and execute. And, like, you're kind of the physical layer is the things that are, like, grounded in your body that are about music.
Michael:And that that's in your ears and your your, you know, your ears can have a have a physical dimension in in how they're open or not. There that's that's kind of a part of that. So that has to be exercised in the day. Then there's also this sort of, like, this sort of, like, organizational cognitive layer, which is a different layer. Right?
Michael:Which is, like, all of the things that we all of the tools that we use, music theory, for example, being one, like, paradigmatic paradigmatic. Is that a word? Like, some one paradigm, you know, to make like sense. Other people have other things. Right?
Michael:Like, I love the example of Holdsworth which, holds Alan Holdsworth, if anybody doesn't know, he had his like own unique that He invented this, like his own notation system.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:And essentially, he would he, you know, these break down to, you know, modes, whole tone, the, you know, the various diminished modes, Dorian. Basically, every every whole whole half whole whole half, he basically put it into that all of that. He reduced to a Dorian thing and he used this like x notation Mhmm. For that. But so they like it's kinda it's theory but it's like its own way.
Michael:Like it it's own, cognitive organization of music. So that's another layer as distinct from the physical layer, which is like executing the ideas. But then there's this other layer, which is like that's like connected into like your your like breath and the singing quality. And this is the quality the breath and the spirit the spirit world too, I think, is or the, you know, that it's it's the things that are pushing you towards that flow state. And this is where the phrasing comes from.
Michael:And this is where this is the layer when you listen to something and it really is like resonating with you and it's pushing you into that like optimal place.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:That's that. Right? That's like the breath and the and the emotional the ability to like tug on your on your feelings. Yeah. And, and I think that those are three distinct layers.
Michael:And so when when you're listening, it's it's it's cool. And when you're listening and also when you're playing, you know, it's it's cool to kind of, isolate these layers, you know, whether you're warming up or whether you're practicing or whether you're performing.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:Maybe not performing. You don't wanna be like, you don't wanna be like, you know
Jonathan:Like performative.
Michael:Performative. Yeah. You don't wanna be performative. Yeah. Absolutely.
Michael:Well said. But like, it's it's cool to like isolate those layers but it's also cool to kinda come and put them play with putting them together. So, when you know, this is a very long way to say this. Like, I don't think that there's one way or there should be just like one way of listening to music, know. And the the distinct thing of like when I was a child, it was much more about like the flows.
Michael:It was only about the flow state because I didn't have any information yet.
Jonathan:Yeah. Right.
Michael:But now, you know, there's these there's these other layers that I can listen to. So sometimes I'm listening for that like, what is the where is the phrase the phraseology of of train, you know. Mhmm. I was just talking to somebody about that part, that record transitions. It's incredible record.
Michael:The the the take and there's this moment like, I don't know exactly when it happens but it's like This is like a fifteen minute piece of music. And there's this moment, like, three quarters of the way through where, you know, it's it's the quartet. It's Elvin, Jimmy Garrison, McCoy Tyner and Train. And that quartet had this it was it's one of the most full groups in terms of those three layers, like the physicality. You know, they're all such physically competent technical players.
Michael:The that organizational cons construct too. They're they're all such like cerebral players at the same time.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:And the way that they play together as a group. But then the phrasing too and especially that like eight bar this eight bar oceans oceans of waves that way that they're And there's this moment in like at like ten minutes in where Train has been play he's playing, he's continuing to play and everybody's playing so hard. And then he just, like it's almost, like, he's, like, goes into this, like, whale song thing. Like, he's, like, searching for something. And you you know that it's because he's like it's that singing part.
Michael:It's that breath part. It's the he's searching for something that he doesn't know how to get to with the organizational and the physical. Uh-huh. And so the only way that he can do it is it's almost like and it's it's it's crazy. It is so vulnerable and it's so amazing.
Michael:I I don't even know. I mean, he's he's like up in his altissimo and he's like pushing the he like he's like pushing the pitch until this like it's it's a really incredible thing to to listen to. But yeah. I mean, when you when you listen to that piece of music, you you can there's so much there to unpack in terms of technique. Mhmm.
Michael:There's also so much there to unpack in terms of organization.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:And intellect. And there's also so much there to unpack in terms of the the the phrasing and the spirit and the breath. And I think it's really important to turn that record on and and almost like the op optometrist. Right? You you put on your like one lens and then you try another.
Michael:And then you try another and, you know, try to listen to it with the with the beginner's mind, know.
Jonathan:Uh-huh.
Michael:But also try to then try to listen to it, you know, analytic analytically.
Jonathan:Right.
Michael:If you hear something in there that that's that you're just curious about what the content is, transcribe it, you know. Uh-huh. But you don't have to do like one thing. I I think to be a complete human being, you you wanna you wanna explore all of that, I think. Yeah.
Michael:Yeah.
Jonathan:It it feels like a it feels like a spectrum of some kind. Like, as you're describing it, that when you say gradient, I like I like that when it's like a gradient thing. And then and that it's not binary. It's not just organizational, and it's not just, you know, flow. But, like, there's this there's this kinda I feel like this kinda spectrum.
Jonathan:But but is it, you know, is it really just one way or the other? Or can you just have it all at once? Yeah.
Michael:I think, like, opt like, optimally, like, when you perform, if you're a performing musician. Right? Like, that's what I that's what I think Charlie Parker meant when he's when somebody asked him, like, are you playing on rhythm changes? And he just says, I'm just playing b flat. You know, and I think that, you know, of course, he knows that he's not just playing b flat.
Michael:Of course, he knows that. But I think that that's what he means, like, when you go to play and actually share. Yes. I think you're melding all three of those layers, the physical, the intellectual and the that spiritual thing. This is something that, you know, the the kind of the this trinity is something that's it's like foundational to, the human psyche somehow in ways that
Michael:are so obvious that I'm not even gonna say.
Michael:Totally not a religious guy by the way. I'm like totally not religious.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:But you know, I mean if you you look at like, I I actually heard recently in an interview, with an amazing drummer that he was this drummer was saying, like, everything is in three. Like, if and if in fact, if you listen to, like, birdsong, like, even the birds tend to, like, repeat their phrases in groups of three. And, like, just the the way that nature organizes itself in terms of threes.
Jonathan:And threes, yeah.
Michael:Yeah. I I you know, it's that's wonderful. I don't know if they're That's like really scientifically valid or anything but it's a beautiful thought and Mhmm. And it and it is true certainly that organizing things for the human psyche in in threes, there's something about that. That's almost seems just like, it's like a natural order of our experience.
Michael:But, yeah, you know, to your to your question is like, can you have the physical, the cognitive, and the spiritual in in in at the same time? Yes. I I think absolutely that that's what what you do when you're performing or that's what an artist does, I think, when they're performing is they they're, you know, in a way that's that's encapsulated, you know. All of those things are the driving force where the interface is there, whatever they're doing, they're they're playing or singing or, you know, but what's driving them is this kind of union or marriage of these three these three layers of their technique, their concept, and their their phrasing.
Jonathan:Mhmm. Mhmm. It would you say could could this define like a great musician or great player? You know? Can you have one without the other?
Jonathan:You know?
Michael:That's a really interesting question. I think that I don't know if it's consequential like that, you know? Like like there's examples for exam of people that try to see if I could think of a of a good example of somebody who we might, you know, call great
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:That is more I mean, certain certainly, there's examples of people that you, you know, we hold to the highest regard that are maybe tending more towards just having physical virtuosity.
Jonathan:Right.
Michael:And having less of like, early overtly, like less like organize organizational like concept and maybe let you know. But I don't know if there's, like, a cause a causal thing of, like that seems to me to be such a such a a subjective
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:Thing. Right? Like, you know, so you know, certainly we all can agree on Segovia of the greatest guitar players ever. Right? Like, or or or whatever.
Michael:The greatest Yeah. Certainly there's something in the zeitgeist. But I don't know if there if it's a metric. I think it's more of a it's just more it's more of a, like a philosophy of how to you asked me what where I was at with my week. Right.
Michael:I'll just be trying to begin on that, you know.
Jonathan:Yeah. Yeah.
Michael:Right. It's a way to, you know, go move forward. Like, move forward through your day and through your week and through your Mhmm. Development. Yeah.
Michael:Mhmm. Mhmm. Less like a measurement tool. Mhmm. You know?
Michael:Yeah.
Jonathan:So so let's let's kind of let's take that idea and go into your guitar playing.
Michael:Yeah, man.
Jonathan:So so like, you know, you know, you what what what happens when you pick up your guitar? You know?
Michael:Well, should we find out?
Jonathan:Let's find out. Let's find out.
Michael:Yeah. Sure. Yeah. This is one of the things that I'm I'm kinda getting more into is just picking up and just playing kind of freely. Mhmm.
Michael:And, you know, one of the things that I'm I was thinking of there is just the guitar has been sitting here and, you know, I'm just trying to get get in touch with my touch and in touch with the sound. And so in terms of those three layers, I'm thinking really in terms of, like, the physicality. Like, just just understanding, like, where my body is at that moment. And but also, not just doing something like, you know, like This is something that I like to do sometimes. Speaking of of Holdsworth, you hear a lot of You hear you hear a lot of stuff like that in his playing, which is like it's like shape oriented stuff.
Michael:So and and but even when I do that, I'm trying to kind of use my ear with it. But that's a good way to get into your physical body is just play the shape. So like all all I'm really doing is I'm just playing like with one, three, and four. I'm not even really thinking about a key or anything. Mhmm.
Michael:But that this is this is kind of something that I would think of as being like purely physical. Uh-huh. And so not having any of the other elements like organizational or like phrasing necessarily involved in there. But even there, you don't you know, you you could just kind of run up and down the neck. So, what I was doing here, you know, I started out, I just thought, like, it would be kinda cool to, like, you know, what like, I just thought, like, it'd be cool.
Michael:It'll give me a bar, you know. And then I wonder just like what this fourth stack sounds like and feels like in the room. Uh-huh. I'm here. I I have my headphones so I can't like hear really that well.
Michael:But what were you gonna ask?
Jonathan:I was just gonna ask you to describe describe you know, you just mentioned force. So they answered part of it. So Yeah. You're you're playing a chord in force. And then and what's this what's this like this line you're doing around it?
Michael:Oh. Oh. Yeah. So those are two separate things. So
Jonathan:Okay.
Michael:What I'm what I was thinking about at first was I just started to kinda play something and I probably I think I played something that had a a harmony that was moving and it went somewhere. So I was just trying to really just feel and feel the instrument Mhmm. And feel like where I was in the room. Mhmm. So it's like this we we were talking before about like the physical, the organizational, and then this like spiritual like getting in touch with phrasing.
Michael:Mhmm. So I was because you know, I'm kind of I'm cold. Yeah. Like or I haven't played, I was just gonna get in touch with like the physicality.
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:But I was trying to describe like how the these other layers kind of creep into it and I don't only think about the physical the physicality.
Jonathan:Right.
Michael:And so that's what so there was this sort of voice leading thing that that ended up happening and I was just playing freely. And that's as distinct from, like, really being what I was playing before. This is this kind of holds worth in thing. And it's sort of like a symmetrical pattern, not in terms of intervallically symmetrical, but in terms of like physically symmetrical.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:And so and that that would be that's not what I did. But if I really wanted to purely be like in the physical realm, I might play around with something like that. Another example would be this is kind of a fun thing. You know, stuff stuff like that or like That's this is me thinking about, again, like like interval intervals. So like a like fifth stacks, this kind of fifth stack and then the this this is spanning a fourth on the guitar.
Michael:So then groups of three note three notes plus one note, three notes plus one note. And the reason why I can do that and why it's physical and symmetrical is because I can say down, up, down, and then sweep to here. And then come back down. And then I can kinda work out those kinks in physical space. So this is like really purely physical.
Michael:Like Mhmm. Sometimes I might play something like that, but in this case, I'm really only thinking about the physical feel of like the guitar. And I'm trying to get like work on like also like the sound and like my time feel. Even if I'm playing like rubato. I'm still trying to work on like like my like my time feel and like my rhythmic like drive and articulation.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:Even if I'm playing rubato. Like, if if that I'm not sure if that really makes a lot of sense because it it sounds No.
Jonathan:No. It makes it makes sense. I just wonder I wonder if it's getting into the intellectual area, the cognitive area. Because you're thinking of the fifths, you're thinking of, you know, patterns in in your right hand, you know. Yeah.
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:So and and here's why it's not. So I'm not think I'm not categorizing it yet. I'm not actually thinking about this. I'm just thinking about this with my hand. Oh.
Michael:And so, there's a symmetry here. It's really just a shape. It's physically. Right? And so, if I do something like this, I don't even like know what this is.
Michael:And it's symmetrical not like intervallically symmetrical, not like Slynimski symmetrical, but it's symmetrical in terms of like every single string is just four three one. Yeah. Where the three and the one are separated by a minor third. So I'm like stretching my hand a little bit. Uh-huh.
Michael:And so that's the physicality. Right? Now
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:If I'm from there, if I get into intellectual space, that's when I start to introduce organizing like harmony and putting this stuff onto like a musical form and a structure. So I might start to think about places that I could use this. So I might play like Something like that, you know, where so now I'm thinking about like, okay. That that time I was thinking about the form of a song called Alone Together, which is in d minor. Right?
Michael:So now I'm like putting that's what I mean by the cognitive. Yeah. So now I've got a key center. I it and I've got all the places that it goes. And I've got like something to ground like these physical shapes.
Michael:And I actually I realized like I don't like the minor seven. Like, this is like a huge like a this is like a huge harmonic nerdery like
Jonathan:Oh, go
Michael:But for I I actually I don't like like if I'm playing this song, All All The Things You Are Oh, No. No. Alone Together. There's a couple of harmonic things that I noticed that I did. So this will be the stuff that I I think about, that that are that are are like really bad.
Michael:Like, if I was like teaching myself, I would say, don't do that. And like so one of the things was I've noticed I played something like this. So, I'm playing like a minor seven sound on a on a one on a d minor one.
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:Don't ever do that on a song like this. Why? Because that minor seven, you're signaling it's a it's a especially in this case, you're signaling that it's a tension that needs to resolve somewhere. Even if the song functionally doesn't do that, you're this is not a stable sound. Right?
Michael:So we talk about this, like, minor six or minor major seven. That's a stable sound. So that would so that would be more of the sound. So that was like one of the things that I noticed about like physically now. I I tying back in I'm tying the physical layer into this, organizational layer.
Michael:Where, like, in my exercise, was thinking about this is a Dorian sound. It's not. It's a melodic minor sound. So now, I'm thinking about, okay, I'm organizing that one chord as a melodic minor sound. The shape of it is then different on the guitar.
Michael:Right? Like the the seventh is raised. So Mhmm. Where if I had before, I'm just playing fifths, sweeping them. And then I'm I'm coming back up to go back down, where I have this as a minor seven.
Michael:This is the one sound. That's the one sound.
Jonathan:Okay.
Michael:So like that's that's me then folding in the the organizational layer into the physical layer. And then if I'm gonna go a step further and and then bring in this this spiritual kind of breath layer, I might start by, you know, like, I'm warm. Right? So I might start by just playing less. I might say, and really focus on like what I'm hearing and like and like singing through my soul.
Michael:Sounds so kumbaya. Why'd you say it out loud?
Jonathan:When you translate the stuff into words, then it's like like sometimes it just got loses.
Michael:It loses it. It's crazy.
Jonathan:Yeah. Whatever it is. It's like it's not translated. You know?
Michael:Yeah. It's totally not. It's like totally meant to be in private you know or you know, but I but what I would do is I would really you know interrogate the decisions that I'm making and make sure that my ear is the driver rather than my hand. So I'm like And in in reality, I actually saw this interview, with John Battiste and he made this beautiful point like where he was talking about improvising. Was like, sometimes you just gotta let your hand do what it wants to do.
Michael:Uh-huh. And I was like, dude, thank you for fucking saying that, man. Like, it's like, cause it's so true. Right? It's like so true but he has the balls to like say it Yeah.
Michael:Because he's such a badass, you know. Yeah. So like that to me, that's like the physicality. Right? So some and in practice, you you do have to let that in.
Michael:But with the spiritual breath layer, a lot of this is is is is taking out the hand and just really listening. So if I'm here, you know, I'm really just trying to listen to where where do I hear. And I usually get, you know, And so I'm just really trying to, like, make decisions that and sometimes I go wrong, like sometimes I go wrong, but I'm trying to use my breath and my sense of phrasing, like really be connected to to what is the next note and do I have room for it in my in my breathing. If that makes Mhmm. If this is making any sense.
Jonathan:No. Makes total sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael:And so really trying to I'll go for something that I might I'll take a risk. Like, I I played I played, like a may a major seven. I got to a minor, g minor chord. Mhmm. And I remember and I kinda played this was a bad, ear decision, but but I I played like both sevenths at the same time.
Michael:But I noticed that it it kinda kinda felt I don't know. Somehow felt it felt how I felt in that time. So maybe there was it was like I was letting my subconscious in. This is something that I probably would have never played. It's not practical.
Michael:It's not ergonomic. It kinda hurts. Yeah. It's a big stretch. But it was like I don't know.
Michael:It just it wasn't a mistake. Right? Because it's like, oh, like I don't know. It's kinda like
Jonathan:How'd how'd you do it so quickly in in the moment? Because I mean, how do you how do you explain that?
Michael:Oh man. Yeah. That's that's a really good question. It's I think it comes from I think what you're talking about is the the art of, improvising and the art of, like, making these decisions and then executing them. And it's a combination of a lot of work just like this.
Michael:Like, just what I just explained of, like, going through in the practice room, like, going through those three sort of domains of, like, really getting getting together, like, physically. You know, play like, can I can I play sixths? Like, in f major in a way and then go away from that. And like can I even just like do that like physically?
Jonathan:Physically. Yeah.
Michael:Then can I do it in a way that like I understand harmonically like the organizational framework of like what am I what are the harmonies that I'm implying? And how could how might I use that on a form? Like, I I think I I even, you know, did something like that in a in a turnaround or or something as a very natural place to do it. If if I'm, you know, if I if I'm in in f and I'm just saying three six two five, you know, I could just go. That would be a minor, d seven flat nine, g, g minor, c seven flat nine to f.
Michael:You know, so that would be like, I've got physically, I can play this. Right? Physically, I can do that. But like, where do I where could I do it on a song form? And how could I use it to make sense?
Michael:And then there's this layer of this the spirituality of, like, the breath. Right? Of, like, the how how do I phrase it, you know? You know, that's that was how I was hearing it in my head just then. Mhmm.
Michael:And so, that's like in the practice room. Right? But there's also you have to have lots of to really be like to get to a higher level, you have to have lots of like experience. Because like, I mean, right now, you know, the the the the reality of it is like there's an amplifier pointed at me. I've got like these headphones on, Like, we're together but like there's a camera on.
Michael:You know?
Jonathan:There's a wall.
Michael:So like for like Yeah. There's a there's a wall. But like the Yeah. But it's also it's like there's like an element of like pressure, I guess.
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:Right? Yeah. There's an element of like, okay. It's like, you know, we're gonna record this then it's like going out of my hands. So, lot of people will be like, in that situation, they'll just play safe.
Michael:They they don't feel like They would Like, some people just would never play that because they they don't they're not comfortable with the unknown. Right? They're not comfortable with that unknown. And so that's where like the experience of like playing a lot with other people in rehearsals And playing on all kinds of different gigs of all kinds of different, you know, levels. Some of them like wallpaper jobs.
Michael:Some of them concerts, you know, where people are like hanging on to every note, you know. And the experience of like being comfortable with taking a risk. Right? Because in reality, it's like with the spiritual element, I'm trying to be connected to absolutely everything. I'm trying to let my that the the force.
Michael:I used to call it like the brute force because that that used to be the only thing that I ever had. So, I didn't know very much about harmony and I kinda sucked at the guitar. So, it was like it was only like that's like the thing of like when you're just there and you just you just want something to come out. Right? That's the spiritual.
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:Right? So that's what I mean when you're working on that. And you kinda have to you it takes a lot of experience and practice of being in that situation of being vulnerable, and getting like something together in those other two layers to commit to those those decisions, you know, to those those each micro decision. But I'll I'll say this too and it's it's not thought. It's not in the realm of of thought.
Michael:And a lot of times that, like, urge to play something is actually not melodic or harmonic. Actually, it's it's it's it'll be rhythmic oftentimes for me. It'll be in the in the realm of rhythm. And my ear and my intuition then takes over and kinda fills in Because of the work that I did, especially in that middle layer, the organizational layer Mhmm. It kinda fills in information most of the time.
Michael:Not all the time. But most of the time that makes sense with the harmony. And the voice leading becomes okay and good.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:So, yeah. It's it's not in the realm of like, I'm not thinking about like the like categorically, what is the harmony of this song? Right. What is the harmony of this this this movement right now? I'm actually just thinking like You know, I'm like I'm like, I don't know, like, what's gonna come out, like, necessarily, but I don't I'd I'm not, like, guiding all of that all of that, those decisions, like, with my intellectual, like, thinking brain.
Michael:Like, it like, the one thing that I am kinda guiding in real time is like, do I wanna play a short phrase or a staccato phrase? Like, that time I really wanted to this is what we do when we wanna emphasize rhythm, we is wanna emphasize the front ends of the attack. So, I was thinking, you know, short short. I keep on doing that. That was the other decision that I wanted to say.
Michael:So this chord, a lot of people play d play a two five to to a and then two five to f. Really, the the harmony is not that. It's actually this this It's actually this, like diminished chord. Like e seven flat nine almost. Mhmm.
Michael:So that's, that's something that
Michael:I just noticed that I kept on doing. But you know, I kept on making the decision because I'm not thinking about that but Mhmm. But that that that's to say like where does the where does the the the decision come from in real time? Well, it it doesn't necessarily come from that that intellectual organizational part. It actually Like the thing that's that's driving the decision is the sort of the rhythmic placeholder.
Michael:It Does that make sense?
Jonathan:Yeah. It's it's kind of like that's It feels like that's the anchor. Like, you anchor on the rhythm. Like, you like, like, it's almost like a starting place. Like, you're launching, you know, somewhere, you know, from from the rhythmic area and and then the other stuff falls into place.
Jonathan:Is that is that what you're Totally.
Michael:It's a totally it's yeah. I think I think exactly right. I should've just said that.
Jonathan:No. It's okay. Yeah. It's okay. No.
Jonathan:It's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Like, what what you're playing is is like it it is again, it's like this beyond words thing that's going on.
Michael:You know?
Jonathan:Yeah. So it's it's truly amazing of what what is coming out out through your hands and and through your body and and things like And so so just so just naturally, you know, there's a natural, you know, sense to it. And it's, you know, it's it's so in tune with, like, of what people do the best. When when you find that someone's doing something like they really know how to do and that's a really a part of them, like, there's an essence to that. To, like you know?
Jonathan:And it you know, in your case, it's it's like the guitar playing, you know. And and of course of course, we can categorize it, but it's you're playing the guitar, you know, and you're playing music, you know. And you know, you got someone else that could be just like a computer whiz, you know? And now that's their natural being. Like, they're so natural of,
Michael:you know,
Jonathan:wow, they can code stuff and, you know, know, know, create, you know, Microsoft. You know, so Yeah. You know, it's like, yeah, people are so you know, it's like this natural thing about it. So it's just so it's so beautiful to hear you hear you play and and do your best to put it into words because it's so So hard to put it into words, you know, these things that we do that we know we do really well. We just don't know how to say it, you know?
Jonathan:And and so, I mean, that's that's, you know, part of the reason why we're here is to see what what can we do? Can we can we peel back these layers? You know? You know? Can we do that?
Jonathan:How how do we do that? You know? Mhmm. You know?
Michael:Yeah. Yeah. It's it's so it's so beautiful. Yeah. Well, continue.
Michael:I don't wanna
Jonathan:No. No. It's cool. It's it's just I'm I'm I'm in awe of just of of this. I've always been, you know, personally very fascinated by, like, jazz guitar playing.
Jonathan:And and I can I can do a little bit of it, you know, but, you know, I I will be honest? It's like, you know, it's it's a different language. It's it's a different language. You know? I I studied classical guitar and Mhmm.
Jonathan:You know, very classical guitar pedagogy. And Mhmm. That's its own language. And Mhmm. You know, and learning that that way of thinking and feeling and executing and, you know, it's its own thing.
Jonathan:It's like Mhmm. And then and then you have like this world of jazz and that's that's its own language too. And it's it's just remarkable of how how it's like it's all music and it's all great, but it's a different language. You know what I'm saying?
Michael:Totally I do totally know what you're saying. I Yeah. There's something that you said that was really interesting though to me that I would like to go back to and unpack a little bit because I I actually do think about it a lot and it's this you you're saying the people who are in their natural state and it tends to be to like trickle down into like a very particular discipline. So this is something that's like really interesting to me and because I also am we It also ties into your your characterization of classical guitar versus jazz guitar like commercial you know, guitar could be looped into that as well. Mhmm.
Michael:As being different languages too. I but I think that there's this mean, absolutely you're you're right. Like in most people, who get to a high level at something, it's like there's one discipline. Right? It's like they're classical guitar players or they're jazz guitar players or you kind of were alluding to like a Bill Gates, like some genius like programmer.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:And it doesn't tend to be I I I think about this all the time actually. It's like there's this There was in time of history this notion of a renaissance person. Somebody like Michelangelo. Like who was apparently a pretty killing musician. Like, we don't have recordings of his playing, obviously.
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:But, like, apparently, he was like a pretty good musician. Like, he could hang with the that were like pros at that time like in the courts or whatever. Mhmm.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:And obviously, an amazing scientific mind. Most people know him for his his painting. But he had the He had reached actually And not just him, I I think it was a time where this was more common. You know, people were more cross, discipline and deep Like they had breadth and they also had depth. And and that is really fascinating to me because I I have a lot of diff you know, various interests.
Michael:In addition to like the the Just the regular, human being aspect of it and like just being a parent and being a husband and I I would loop that into it too, right? Like, and it's something that I think that if we can I try to do this a lot? If we can think of, in a sufficient layer of abstraction. Right? Such that we could apply this kind of backing, like, soul force to, like, whatever we're we're doing and then fill it fill in the context and, you know.
Michael:But if we could back up enough conceptually, to such that we're we kinda become these open capacity vessels for, like, our ability to go, you know, go deep into various different things. That to me, that's like what what's really interesting, you know. So I think that what you're saying is absolutely true. You know, there's distinct linguistic differences between I I would say it's those three layers really. Like the phrasing the phrasing, the way that you organize things on the instrument and the way that you physically play is the most obvious.
Michael:You know, most people see this whole right hand thing is like that's like a huge deal. You know? Mhmm. If you just put just put let's just do this. Like you put your hand up the camera and look at mine.
Michael:Yeah. You see? Yeah. I
Michael:know. That says it all right there. Look at those beauties, Yeah.
Jonathan:Know. They they they are a little long but Yeah. And that's usually a sign of something. But
Michael:Yeah. You know what they say.
Michael:Long fingernail, you know?
Jonathan:No, no, no. Let's not wave it. I could practice a little more let's say let's say that.
Michael:Oh oh that's oh I I see what you mean. Yeah yeah yeah. It's like a pick. It gets like worn down. Yeah.
Michael:But that's cool. But you know I mean physically it's a whole different like method of producing sound. Right? So Right. Abs absolutely.
Michael:But I think that there are there is a layer of abstraction too that you consciously you could develop like if you're curious about both. I was I was avidly discouraged from going from taking classical guitar seriously. I think I I I am grateful for that in in some respects because I didn't really have time, you know Mhmm. To get physically prepared to really, you know, do it at at any sort of level. Mhmm.
Michael:But so so you you know, I'm I'm I'm reinforcing what you're saying, but I I also do think that there is a level of abstraction that you could you could attain as a human to give yourself capacity to go. It I don't think it's like fate or like written in the stars or something that you only have to do like one thing.
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:And that your pure you know, the purest expression of like, Yeah. I really appreciate you saying that. And I feel that, you know, when I play I feel I feel that I'm processing. Like, this isn't going in. I'm but I'm not thinking about you know who's great at talking about this is Eric Gales.
Michael:Because like he's the way that he says it is like how I feel about it. He's like he'll talk about this and he'll like get emotional. He'll be like, I just think about like when I'm playing, I just I think about the grief, my unprocessed grief and I think about like my depression and my issues, my addiction and I think about my what I can do better like tomorrow for my relationships and, you know, that's that's kinda That really to me is the is verbalizing the most natural expression of your truest humanity. And, yes, I've worked really hard and think about that a lot is when I play. When I play, it's like a pressure valve for all that shit to come out.
Michael:Right? But Mhmm. I don't think that there's some some thing where that that's the only that that that was the only thing that I could have ever done or something like that. It's like, it I think that there's a layer of abstraction that you could you could get, you know, you could come away from the thing, and you could use that to organize your ability to go to gain mastery in other if you had time. Yeah.
Michael:Like somebody like a a Da Vinci, you know, and who who was like the highest level cat. Was like a all of these different things, all of these multidisciplinary and, you know, things and I just wanted to make that point because I think about that a lot and and it's really interesting to me, You know?
Jonathan:It's almost like a like a an aim to be a musical polymath. You know? Like yeah. And there's Yeah. And and there's a there's a few there's a few like notable artists out there that can crossover, you know.
Michael:Sure.
Jonathan:You know. And Sure. Yeah.
Michael:Herbie Hancock is the example that always comes up amongst jazz musicians. He has a undergraduate degree in electrical engineering, I believe.
Jonathan:Really? I don't
Michael:know. Yeah. Yeah. And I I don't think that he has professionally done very much with it but like it's it's like obvious in his curiosities and the way that he he has structured some of those records that that he did. Like, the with stuff with, the Vocoder, like, Sunlight and, is that what that record's called?
Michael:With, Just Come Running to Me is on that and, you know, it's it's like, you know, obvious that he has that propensity but that's somebody that that comes to to mind and I think Joshua Redman has like a law degree or something. From like Harvard. Right?
Michael:Something like that, you know.
Michael:Mhmm. Something not music for sure. I know Aaron Goldberg is another piano player that a lot I think his thing is like, it's maybe psychology or neuroscience, you know, something like that. Mhmm. There's another amazing jazz piano player in New York who is Has a degree in like astrophysics or
Jonathan:something. Yeah.
Michael:Dan Tepper is amazing.
Jonathan:It's like like May. Brian May has
Michael:Well, Brian May is the
Michael:Did you mention that the other day too? Yeah. When we were talking.
Jonathan:I don't think so. I don't think so. But it was Oh, yeah. It was in line
Michael:That came up.
Jonathan:With what we were talking about but I I don't know if I mentioned it.
Michael:Yeah. That's come up in conversation, in some conversation that I had. I thought maybe it was with you. It could've been with somebody else though but that very thing. Yeah.
Michael:Brian May. It's particle physics, right? He's like a particle physicist?
Jonathan:Yeah. Something like that.
Michael:Something like that. Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan:I mean, talking about this kind of like how the brain works like know, in our interests. Right? You know, how the how the interest in you know, it's you know, a lot of us have so many interests outside of music, but, like, there's there's there's some somewhere some mysterious connection between these outside things of music, you know, and and then and then doing doing music well. And at the same time, you know, it's an interesting angle.
Michael:Dude, would say that it's not somewhere. I would say that now you're getting to the realm of what it means to be an artist. Yeah. Right? Which is something like that I strive for.
Michael:I'm not very far in like actually building an audience for myself or whatever but I do think about this and I I think that an artist is somebody who can viscerally make those make those connections like for you. So what that makes the music about so much more than just what it's about. It's it's it's like Mhmm. It's almost like the, the key to writing good dialogue is to never say what the conversation is about. You know?
Michael:It's all subtext. Right? It's it's you're presenting the the world through this, you know. You're presenting the world through your your lens of it's not just the music, it's not just how you look at d minor. Mhmm.
Michael:You know, it's it's actually and it's not explicit either but it's like there's like a depth there that you are exposing that. I think that is one of the most visceral kinds of experiences of true artistry that is when I hear it like that it's obvious to me that it's about so much more than what is explicitly being you know, played.
Jonathan:Yeah. And it's interesting how that's done through instrumental music, you know.
Michael:Yeah. Totally. Right? Yeah.
Jonathan:You know, and it's some Totally. And sometimes we can base it off the title of the chart or something, you know. Mhmm. But that's only one part of it.
Michael:Totally, man. Yeah. Also like instrumental music, you're saying too also like a two, sometimes like a two's are like that. Like I think about the it's the Leo Bra. The way that whatever he ends up doing, you know, this kind of shit like whatever he
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:I can't remember. You you probably know that shit. You know what I mean?
Jonathan:I haven't played it already. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael:Yeah. And like he gets all up here. Whatever he do. Whatever he does, like to me, that's like, you know. And it's like an etude.
Michael:Right? Yeah. But it's Right. To me, it's like so emotive. Mhmm.
Michael:And I don't know what he you know what he was feeling or I don't know if he's probably not reading about astrophysics or something. But I do know that when I listen to that like somebody like yourself like playing that really well, it gives me a sense of awe when I look at the night sky. You know. It's just like, you know. I think that's what we're talking about, you know.
Michael:Yeah.
Jonathan:Yeah. Yeah. When when this music evokes a memory.
Michael:Wow. Yeah.
Jonathan:Yeah. Or or like the feeling of that memory.
Michael:The sense memory.
Jonathan:Yeah. Yeah. The sense. Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan:Absolutely.
Michael:Mhmm.
Michael:Beautiful, man.
Jonathan:Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Wow. How beautiful.
Jonathan:How beautiful. Yeah. And So I like to pivot here.
Michael:Sure.
Jonathan:Yeah. If you don't mind.
Michael:Not at all.
Jonathan:How you feeling?
Michael:I feel great, bro.
Jonathan:Good.
Michael:I feel good. This is wonderful for me. This is awesome. I really appreciate you asking me to do this. I'm having a great time.
Michael:Yeah. Yeah. I love you too, man. We should be in touch more, dude. Like, you're one of those people, like, you're good at it.
Michael:Like, every now and then you reach out and I'm always like, oh, yeah. I love this cat, man.
Jonathan:And we're we're talking about that the other day, how the importance of of keeping up. Yeah.
Michael:Totally.
Jonathan:Yeah. And it gets away from us. Just with everyday life, how busy we are. Yeah. And all the things going on and stuff like that.
Jonathan:Whatever it is, you know, sometimes it's hard to keep in touch. And it's like you think of the person, but you don't always reach out.
Michael:Mhmm.
Jonathan:You know, and I, you know, I you know, I thought of you for this. You know, when I was thinking like, you know, it's like, you know, this whole thing about The Pluck, you know, just bringing in these, you know, having these conversations about everything that we do as, you know, string pluck string players, you know, like guitarists and whatever. But it's like it's it's a pretty wide field. And I was like Yeah. Well, you know, I'd love to have someone who's like a jazz jazz guy.
Jonathan:You're like my first thought.
Michael:Thank you, man. You gotta listen to some more music, bro. I gotta send you some records, man.
Michael:Yeah, man. Yeah. Well,
Jonathan:it helped that I knew you, you know. Yeah. That's for sure. Yeah. Going back to Shenandoah.
Michael:I get it. Yeah. Yeah. I totally get it, man. Right.
Michael:You, man. It means a lot. Yeah. It's really cool. Yeah.
Michael:It's a it's a funny thing too. Like I Just thinking about the guitar angle, like it's For me, it's like an angle that I I don't know. I have like a complex relationship with, but without like realizing that I do. You know, like coming into the whole thing of like learning how to do it at a high level or like whatever. Learning how to do it well, know, being like really interested in it.
Michael:A lot of the things that that really got like got me like really curious and focused were the things that were not actually played by guitar players. They were played by piano players or saxophonists or especially the jazz cannon. It's like, I mean there's some incredible guitarists in the jazz cannon. Don't get me wrong. But a lot of like the groundbreaking music that, you know, the the really like cutting edge stuff, maybe until like recently with Rosenwinkel, you know.
Michael:Maybe, you know, around the the February, you could kinda make an argument for Rosalindinkle like playing linguistically in a way that was like, you know, pushing the the pushing the language forward.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:But other than that, you know, since Charlie Christian, you know, Charlie Christian was this musician that that pushed the guys who came up with bebop into bebop rhythmically.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:This eighth eighth note propulsion kinda angular angularity and and syncopation and nuance in the eighth note line and and harmonic descriptiveness in the eighth note line. But like still a melodic shape and and and, sense, you know. He was the kinda like the cat for them. And then since then, it's like there's this historical period where it's mostly like saxophonists, pianists and like that are like pushing the language forward. Know, everybody talks about Bird, Charlie Parker.
Michael:Obviously. He was one of one of those guys. And then moving forward, train. Was another saxophonist. But like after that Brecker and then maybe after that like Mark Turner and I'm probably you know miss you know, missing when you start naming names, it's always a it's always a hard thing.
Michael:But like, but the you know, getting into this point of like the guitar. I play the guitar but I've most of the music that I've studied for a long time was not like guitar players. You know, in terms of the way that that the music was organized. And and that has been you know, and then when I was coming up too, there was this guy who's like famous now, I think we're the same age, was speaking about like cats that like are doing it, Julian Lodge. I think we were both born in '88.
Michael:Maybe he was even born in '89. But he is this amazing amazing amazing guitarist and he sounds like a guitarist.
Jonathan:Like,
Michael:the things that he plays are somehow nobody else plays like that, but they're also somehow like so idiomatic to the instrument. And that's something that I've been thinking about lately too because a a lot of like what I try to do and the way that I hear is it's a function of the way that I've developed, is like not idiomatic. You know, and that thing that holds worthy kinda thing because it comes out of the train thing
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:It really resonates with me and it's it's In some ways, you could make maybe an argument that his thing is you know, shapey and guitar y in certain ways. But it's certainly not in the way that that Julian's playing as, you know. Julian will play like. He'll play all that stuff, you know. Like like stuff like that.
Michael:I I don't know. I I can't do him. He only he could do him.
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:Yeah. I love that. But it's like it's it's it's like very rooted into the history of the way that people play the guitar and it it is idiomatic in to the guitar, know, the the doing something like that, like a double stop. It's just very like even even Hendrix. You can't even say it's country or something like that.
Michael:It's like even Hendrix would do that kind of thing. You know, right? It's the same thing. That kind of stuff, you know, that that's like it me, that's like idiomatic guitar y. That's that's Hendrix's flavor on that bluesy country thing.
Michael:But Julian has that, you know. And that's that's something that I'd like I wouldn't say I consciously avoided it, but it it was something that when I don't know, when I heard him doing like what he's doing, especially when he started to play with the telly, it was like I was just like, oh yeah, like I had neglected like all of that.
Michael:Yeah. I totally like just, you know. And
Michael:and you know, then start to kinda get back into that. And and it's it's an important thing. Like it's important aspect of of it. Like, you know, I I know your whole thing here is is rooted around this kind of the entry point. Right?
Michael:It's like the plucked instruments. So the guitar or the banjo or the mando or the you know, hope hopefully you have all these kinds of people coming in there. Yeah. And there there are these ways to to to play these instruments that are you know, at at one time you know, idiomatic, but at the at the all the other time you know, they're kind of your own your own touch and your own sound concept. Like he's a perfect example of somebody who has just this pure expression.
Michael:That is this like synonymous with the instrument Mhmm. Which is so deep and heavy and like very almost in a way very very grounded in that kinda like the classical sort of you know, classical musicians or what we call, you know, classical musicians are kinda like that in a sense. Right? Like, they're so masters of their of their instrument and what they can do is idiomatic to their their instrument.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:And so much of what I've tried to
Jonathan:Yeah. Can you
Michael:explain is like Yeah.
Jonathan:Go ahead. Can you explain like what you said something about being unidiomatic, like the the way you
Michael:Oh, yeah.
Jonathan:Play. Can you explain what that means? Or or or should Yeah. Give an example?
Michael:Oh, totally. Yeah. Like, I mean, so like let's say like, I'm thinking about this. This is a tune called Invitation. I might like wanna play something like this.
Michael:You know, it's it's like but what what was thinking is at first was this kind of idea that going from here to here in a way that's I don't know. I would make an argument that that's not it. That's not idiomatic. That's something that I had to kinda work on Yeah.
Jonathan:A lot. Okay.
Michael:Because I would hear like Michael Brecker or like Uh-huh. You know, like McCoy be like these larger interval larger intervals. Right? Yeah. That would be something that's like not idiomatic.
Michael:Whereas, you know, something that's like All of that is like just like right there, you know, this especially this. You know, it's all it's all right there, you know. It's it's like they kinda go going back to that original thing is sort of all in this sort of e e derived open chord like c shape, you know, and you know. Mhmm. You know, the the it's what's what's more natural than that?
Michael:It's like a it's like written for the guitar, you know. Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan:You know
Michael:what I mean? It's it's it just lays well.
Jonathan:Can you Yeah. Can you play in the same style but in that unidiomatic way?
Michael:Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So if I was gonna go like, until Yeah. You know what are you know
Michael:Rob. You know, like
Michael:like angular and and and and and I kinda found ways to play that and there's people who can like you know, there's people out there who can do all kinds of stuff. But there's there's some things like like the ways to like organize it in a way that the wide interval thing that is like manageable. And one of those I kind of alluded to it before is this, if you take like a pentatonic scale and you kind of, most people know this shape. Mhmm. And most people know this shape.
Michael:This is like the second box. Yeah. On the guitar. And if you kinda like put them together, play three notes on one string, one note on the second string, and then three notes. You're automatically gonna get some more of that like, fourth y stuff.
Michael:And then the double notes, which is a very saxophony thing.
Jonathan:Because of a different like key.
Michael:Yeah. Yeah. Because like because like because when I've got this this box here, I've got the b flat here, but I'm combining it with this box. So now I'm getting into the physical thing. Right?
Jonathan:Yeah. Right? You know? Yeah.
Michael:But I'm kinda then I'm getting into the organizational thing whereas I'm, like, using it over the I'm using it over blues. And then roping back into that, like, sort of spirituality, like, phrasing is like, what? How am I gonna do it? You know, reminds me of I one of my favorite piano players of all time is is Mulgru Miller. And Mulgru Miller is like one of these players that he's he's incredible improviser.
Michael:Like, don't don't get me wrong. Like, he was incredible improviser. But he would play stuff that that, like, you knew was worked out. Like, there's because you've because you'd heard it. Like, he had, like you know, he had language and he had he had phrases that he would reuse.
Michael:But the way that he would play it was, like, in a way the way that he would place it on a form, it was like still fresh and surprising and inevitable at this all at the same time. You'd be surprised, but has this feeling of inevitability. And so when I do when I'm doing stuff like that, like I'm kind of forcing it in there. Mhmm. But I'm always thinking about like Mulgrew in that way of like, I'm forcing something in there.
Michael:So it's like, am I like improvising? I don't know. This is like gets into a really weird kinda gray area of like Mhmm. Do you you know pre do you pre plan or do you play like licks or or or what do you do? Mhmm.
Michael:I don't know but all I know for that is I try to just think about like how to play this thing
Michael:in a way that's like like natural
Michael:in a sense. I'm I'm trying to I'm trying to not have it sound like, hey, here's something that I practice. Right. I'm trying to have it sound like a melody that's like has movement and inevitability. I just unplugged my guitar by accident.
Michael:Sorry.
Jonathan:Yeah. That's alright. Yeah.
Michael:Yeah. I can't even remember what the what your
Jonathan:About the Well, it was the it was trying to figure out what you meant by un enigmatic.
Michael:Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's what we were talking about. Yeah. So like if I was gonna play in a way that was or actually I could play like more in a straight bebop way too And show you show you a little bit of that.
Michael:So, if I want want let's see. That's so that that to me is more it's not necessarily idiomatic to the guitar, but it's like more based on language that was developed in this kind of collective cohesive, you know, melting pot, boiling pot that was like Harlem in jam sessions in the nineteen forties. And mostly by people who actually really played like that, which was different from how like Charlie Christian might play. It's like Charlie Christian might play in a way that really is more idiomatic to the guitar. And that it's more triadic.
Michael:So, he might play something more like this. You know, so he's playing like more triads that lay on the guitar and like scales and some, like, chromaticism in there like that. That kind of lays, you know, a little bit more on the guitar. Whereas when you get into bebop, you get these like kinda weird like weird like larger interval leaps, you know. And they don't always And now that it's not necessarily idiomatic in the sense that you don't hear a lot of guitar players playing like that in history.
Michael:Mhmm. But it it You can make it more idiomatic in in as much as like I'm not moving my hand very much. Like I'm playing like in position. I've kind of figured out ways to I haven't worked any of that out. I didn't know what I was gonna play, but I'm kind of playing in these scale shapes.
Michael:So so it's it's it's it's in it's into the idiom of the guitar even though it's like not idiomatic to the guitar and as much as it was like written for a guitar or written by a guitar player. But it's like you can you can put stuff like that on the guitar in a way that lays pretty well and work out like your right hand and left hand coordination, whether you're you're playing legato or or not or whatever. There's ways where you can make it lay. Whereas something that's really not idiomatic is something that you would have you have to really like work towards. It's something that just really does not lay well.
Michael:Mhmm. You know, so what I was talking about that kind of thing would be like lines like You know, stuff that like that I would hear like something maybe like Keith Jarrett doing. Mhmm. And it's like, all I'm kinda really doing is I'm really just thinking about this c seven and I'm just thinking about this tonic. Mhmm.
Michael:And I'm just thinking angularly how to create direction and movement towards that pitch. And I and I hit like every scene between here and and you know. And so that that to me is not idiomatic and it never will be. It's like if you're gonna if you're gonna play that way, you really have to investigate especially like that physical layer of like how is it how do you even like just make the sound happen? And then you also have to understand like the intellectual layer.
Michael:Like where does that come on in in terms of a song form. Right? And that's in like in, you know, the physical layer too has to do with like tempo and stuff. It's like there's tempos where I could kind of play like really fast like a bebop tempo because it's like it's like local and it's not idiomatic to the guitar, but I can make it. I can put it into my caged system or you know, I can I can I can put it into some system that we have as guitar players that we can organize?
Michael:So, you know, from that and that I know that I can kind of move around with facility with. This other thing is like there's I there's kinda systems sort of, but the not really. It like sort of breaks it breaks a lot of the conventions. There's a lot of jumping around and it's more about the melodic like like thing. And but whereas it's stuff that on the piano, it's really not that hard or on a saxophone sometimes you get this like angularity and it does lay.
Michael:So like the tempo would not be an issue, for for how those kinds of lines could be expressed. And so that was really what I was talking about. It's like, it's it's kind of idiomatic. It's it's is a complex word word, but I guess I'm using it in ways that of like does it how does it lay and can I make it like can I can I work it into a system of organization on the guitar that like we already
Jonathan:have? Mhmm.
Michael:Like a three note per string scale for example. Mhmm. Or a you know, a box or a position. Mhmm. Or is it something that I'm actually really like just following the interval structure on a on a single string which is sometimes that's what that stuff ends up being, you know.
Michael:Mhmm. Yeah. That's a that's a really good question. It's a really interesting question.
Jonathan:Yeah. Yeah. The whole the whole thing about what's idiomatic or not, there's it's a it's like a real it's like a fuzzy gray area
Michael:Totally, man.
Jonathan:About that. And and Totally. Yeah. And it's a
Michael:Totally. Yeah. Man, I I I have something on that, man. Because you know, you guys, you classical guys, like you have pedagogy. Right?
Michael:You have like various methodologies. And for jazz musicians, especially jazz guitar players, but even blues and rock guitar players like, maybe nowadays there's more pedagogical things. But, like, there there's not really, like, that same like, there's, you know, schools of thought. Right? So you you have someone like Matheny who he develops his kind of this very personal, like like, really really developed, but it's like really personal approach to how do you kind of play arpeggios and scales and organize like, you know, like the like there's things that he does.
Michael:That's like this. You know that
Jonathan:that Mhmm. Mhmm.
Michael:Then And he does like the Pat Metheny yodel.
Jonathan:I didn't know that was the boy's poem.
Michael:Yeah. The Pat Metheny yodel. I'm not very good at it, but he does it like so fast, you know. Uh-huh. And he's kinda doing like a saxophony thing.
Michael:But it's like, he's figured out and and it's what it is, it'll be like, I think this is how he does. He's like, pick, pick, pick, and then he hammers on from nowhere. And then this line, if there's hammer ons from nowhere. Right? So he has these like ways of playing these things that he plays, which to him, they're idiomatic to him in his own way of playing.
Michael:And it kinda does lay like when you get the system, but it's like that's, like, not you know, the only way that I know that is because, like, I'd watch, like, YouTube videos of him and, like, slow you know, like
Jonathan:Uh-huh.
Michael:Looked at exactly, like, what is he doing? What is that thing that, you know, he does all the time? Yeah. And and it's it's so it's but it's not like there's, you know, some pedagogy book that where there's an exercise, you know. Right.
Michael:Right. For an a two To do that.
Jonathan:Or something.
Michael:Yeah. Yeah. So like what is idiomatic is so much more It's so much more like subjective and personal.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:You know? In our world, maybe that Not to say that there's not uniqueness in individuality. Mhmm. But like you guys have like at least directionality in terms of your pedagogy and we don't we don't have that.
Jonathan:Yeah. But it's it's like a whole different approach to the instrument. I find, you know, it's a whole different approach, you know, at least traditionally, you know. Yeah. Because, I mean, you mentioned so much about your earliest years, you know, learning stuff by ear and things like that.
Jonathan:And and where, like, a classical guitar starts. You know, they they start with, like, you know, reading, like, the first string, open string just like Mhmm. You know, pluck, pluck, pluck, the just reading the notes and just doing repetition of reading those notes and getting the right technique and putting your hand in the right place and things like that. It starts with reading. It doesn't like it usually doesn't start with listening unless you're exposed to it.
Jonathan:Know you're exposed to like classical guitarists and this is what they sound like and that's cool or or you go to concerts. Know I was younger, I grew up in a city where classical guitar was very prevalent at the local university, at Stetson University, where I did my undergrad. And Okay. You know, and I, you know, started with a classical guitar teacher and in that in that school. And then there were, like, guitar workshops every year that I would go to.
Jonathan:So I was exposed to that in person, you know? Mhmm. And so that's where I heard it. Yeah. But Beautiful.
Jonathan:Yeah. But for like, you know, jazz and jazz and rock and commercial music and stuff like that, usually usually that is picked up by like, you know, hearing records or going to clubs and and and and like hearing it and then taking what you're hearing and and then learning the instrument. So it doesn't come from it doesn't come from a like a long line of structure, you know, that's been written Yeah.
Michael:Yeah. No. Totally. Yeah. It's it's that's such an interesting thing that you you mentioned and of like how you're how you're exposed to it.
Michael:The this world, the world of classical guitar, you know, in general and also, know, my similar like coming into from another angle. And what it really what is really interesting to me that I think about a lot is like, you know, what what is the like the place like in in the society like at large for these these the arts. Right? And and and I think a lot of us are exposed to music nowadays through education. Especially these kinds of these kinds of music that that we end up playing.
Michael:Maybe this is like an obvious statement. Mhmm. But it's like we're we're exposed to it through the schools or through teachers, like private teachers.
Jonathan:Yes.
Michael:And we're less exposed to it like through the marketplace or like through our our community.
Jonathan:Yes.
Michael:Right? With with the ex they could with the exception of people that came up in the church, know, which is not me and I don't think it's you either. Right? You know, but that's like one exception of like maybe in the current like modern world of people of kids getting exposed to music from their directly like from their community members. Right?
Michael:But it's it's like a really interesting kind of thing in terms of then how does it pervade and percolate into the the rest of our lives. And, yeah. It's it's just an interesting point that I think about. It's like it leads to this other question of kind of like, how can we or what sort of is the purpose of what we're doing? Like, you know, and how can we share it appropriately.
Michael:Know? Mhmm. Which is really an important thing about like what you're doing with this. Know? Mhmm.
Michael:Know, doing a podcast is a great is a great you know, kind of modern way to to to get to get people exposed you know to something. But the the point is that if they're not being exposed to it by the marketplace or they're not being exposed to it by the like their communities. Which is like, you know, it's like really interesting to think about like Mhmm. Because we dedicate so much of our lives to it.
Jonathan:Know? Yeah. Because we're in it. We're in it. We're in the field.
Jonathan:Right? Like like Yeah. We're in that field and we can see it. But like on the outside, it's like, you know, music is is not just for us, but it's for everyone who doesn't play music too. You know?
Jonathan:And Absolutely. And and the exposure of that music, I mean, where does that come from? It comes from community. It comes from the community. It comes from school.
Jonathan:You know, it comes from, you know, the Internet, you know, finding it online and stuff. You know. But there's a friction now about the Internet, you know. I know I know with the younger generation, there's some friction going on. And I've I've read reports about this, like, wanting to go out to actually like experience things, know, getting away from our screens, you know.
Jonathan:Yeah. And things like that. Yeah. So I feel like I feel like speaking of the Renaissance you were talking about earlier. Right?
Jonathan:Speaking of the Renaissance, like I I feel like we could be going through some kind of Renaissance in a way, you know, especially in our arts that that that we could we could if in areas where it's not lively enough, we could we could bring more awareness to live music for all ages for all ages, you know.
Michael:Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I feel passionate about that too. And like also like, I I I've also read that too.
Michael:I think that there's a there's a push in the the younger, generation of some younger kids are like, they're not buying the racket. Right? Yeah. They're like, this isn't the real world. Right?
Michael:They understand, you know, you you know, the body, the human body is like primarily water. Right? I mean, so in the way that sound travels through water is like really incredible. Like, the it it in other words, it travels through you. And so I think it is a visceral experience for somebody who's only ever experienced music, you know, from something like this when they actually somehow get into a room and they feel.
Michael:Yeah. They feel the I took my kids to see Peter Bernstein with Mike Ladan, an incredible organist. He had a he had a b three that he rented and it's just like because I wanted them in the feel of the organ. Yeah. You know?
Michael:Yeah. And it was so cool, know? And Yeah. So I think that I think that you're right. Like maybe maybe so.
Michael:I I don't have as much optimism that you know, the the market powers are gonna like you know, bend over so quickly in a But it but it is something that that is that it is something that we can do is you know, organize in terms of like smaller do do like smaller kind of concerts, local concerts and make them like available and affordable to people, just in the local community. I mean, that's something that you some local communities do really well and it's such an important thing. Like just to expose people, you know, to expose people to this kinds of especially these kinds of music that aren't like, commodified so well. It's really it's really challenging to, for to for that to like, know, certain types of music, the kind of music that you're you're so incredible at. The kind of music that I've dedicated my life to to like commodify it in a way in some in some sense certain certain there was a time for it in the marketplace.
Michael:And and it's interesting to be to be a composer and a and a write a writer and an arranger of music in this time to to kinda try to carve out your the people, that are actually willing to come to your like to your show or
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:Willing to, you know, exchange money for for the product, you know.
Jonathan:Yeah. For the
Michael:Because it's it's it's hard to commodify it. It's like it's not really what what what we're offering is not really commodity. It's actually like you said, it's like an experience and it's the flow state. It's come join me in communion with Yeah. Yeah.
Michael:So
Jonathan:Yeah. We're we're not
Michael:It's hard to bark at that.
Jonathan:We're selling something that's intangible.
Michael:Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
Jonathan:Yeah. That's
Michael:That's right. Right.
Jonathan:That's right. Like you you can't hold it. You can't feel it with your with your touch, you know, sense. You can't you can't do that.
Michael:It's ephemeral too in a sense. Right? Like that's one of the beautiful things about it. It it can I think that's the one of the things that about it that's so powerful in terms of its ability to draw you into the present moment is that it is an ephemeral experience? Right?
Michael:It moves through time and your and your body today is also moving through time. So even your relationship with recordings is is ephemeral, right, in a sense because you're not the same, you know, you're not the same Adams that that you were a decade ago. And But you've probably been listening to some of the same recordings. So that's a really interesting thing. But it's it's really hard to, it's really hard to package that.
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:Sorry. But, but it's it's Yeah. It is really important to, you know, expose as much as we can to like community type concerts or like local like bar games.
Jonathan:Yeah. Well and and
Michael:Get out there and play the shit that's not like on the radio yet.
Jonathan:And educate and education. Like the exposure at a young age. You know, in school and stuff. Know, the importance of arts in the schools. Know?
Jonathan:Absolutely. And you know, God bless the teachers for sure. Like the music teachers. And and and just how much they provide for the students there, you know, through you know, bringing
Michael:A thankless job.
Jonathan:Yeah. Yeah. It is. And and you know, I'll just say briefly, you know, had a couple couple years of experience I told you about. Yeah.
Jonathan:And and you know, there's there's a lot of joy that these students I can sense that their joy, you know, from from not just learning the music, but but, like, witnessing it and being exposed to it or experiencing it even from their teacher like just watching their teacher play and we know that experience watching our teachers play,
Michael:know. Absolutely.
Jonathan:You know, there's there's something really special about that. And then you have like a guest. If you have a guest at a school, you know, that's another experience for them. And all these like little little kind of droplets of of of these chances for for a younger mind and soul to to to witness art, perhaps be inspired by it, perhaps to try it on their own, perhaps to support it later in life. You know, if they never do it, then they can support it.
Jonathan:You know, a lot of it starts at such a young age, you know, when when we we don't have we don't have like the adult world like pressing down on us, you know, or or keeping us busy, you know, that education that that age is so so important.
Michael:Absolutely.
Jonathan:Yeah. For for for our music and for for them and our community and society and just us as humans and It's so Absolutely.
Michael:Yeah. It's it's such a funny thing. It's because you know that there's this other thing. I I think I heard Kenny Werner say this like and this probably applies to all types of music but he was talking about jazz music in particular. Education is such a fertile ground for people to be exposed to music that's not commercial at the time.
Michael:Because it's one of these things that when you learn about it, like you you get that feeling that you just described of when you're a kid and you watch your teacher pick up a guitar, and it's just like the coolest thing. Like, your thought in in at that moment and your thought in those kinds of moments as they follow you through your life is not, I wanna go buy that thing. Or I want Mhmm. Your thought is, I gotta learn how to do that. Like, I need to like know how to like Yeah.
Michael:I need to learn about it, you know. I need to like learn you know, I I think that maybe and maybe that's like not a universal thing. Maybe that's just what people like us think. But but it it it is it does speak to like the the power of like the coupling of education and exposure like in general. Know?
Michael:Because there there I do think that there is that that visceral thing of like when you when it first grabs you and it first takes you in, it your your instinct in general, at least mine was. And I and I know that this is true for a lot of people just through talking to other people and and saying, yeah, that's right.
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:And the way that Kenny Werner expressed it too is like that. It's like you you hear this thing and you wanna you wanna learn it, you know. You don't necessarily you know, because the the the a kid who's exposed to candy or something is gonna be like, they wanna have it and eat it but in order to do that they they have to buy it. So they wanna buy the candy.
Jonathan:Right? Whereas
Michael:like, you could could make the same argument. It's like you could have the experience. You could say, oh, I'm a child. Like, I wanna have this I wanna have that and take it in. I wanna have it eat and listen to it.
Michael:Auditorially eat
Jonathan:it. Yeah.
Michael:So I buy the record. But that's not what happens. It's like I wanna learn how to like make that, you know. I you know? Uh-huh.
Michael:A kid doesn't eat an m and m and say I need I wanna be a chocolatier,
Jonathan:you know. Yeah. Or I wanna make m and m's.
Michael:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael:They they wanna take they wanna take in more of it. This is something actually that's kinda palpable. I I Yeah. Mhmm. So Yeah.
Michael:Yeah, man.
Jonathan:Yeah. Very cool, man.
Michael:Yeah,
Jonathan:dude. We'll have to do part two and three and four and Bro, I
Michael:would love to. Yeah. I would you know, I would love to talk to you like about get more about your I hope somebody does that or on your show, you know, get more like information about you. Mhmm. You know?
Michael:And you have so much to offer, man. You know? For sure.
Jonathan:You know, this is my only this is my second time recording a podcast. Oh, cool. Yeah. So my my second episode, let's say. So Cool.
Jonathan:So I've been I've been cautious just about how much well, how much I speak for one and then how much I say about myself because it's it's about the guests. Yeah. It's not about me. But I understand we gotta have some conversation too. So yeah.
Jonathan:So I try to keep it in balance. Yeah.
Michael:No. That's that's really interesting. There's there's this great, documentary. I like it a lot. It's called Stutz.
Michael:It's, Jonah Hill did it about his therapist, Paul Stutz. And like it's it's on Netflix now. It it came out in like 2022, but it's a it's a really great documentary, first of all, just like in general. But Yeah. It it is really, really, really heavy the way that the the you know, it's like the way that the therapist kind of explains to Jonah, like that the interviewer is actually the kind of the hero.
Michael:Oh. You know? Or at least that he has to, you know, in order for the thing to get like to really have substance, know, he has to find a way to to inject him himself. Know, inject like information about himself and his past too. Encourage So you to check that out and
Jonathan:like Yeah.
Michael:You know, kind of
Jonathan:That that
Michael:not saying like you know, you did
Michael:a great job, man. Yeah. This is great. And we didn't even talk about writing at all Yeah. Or Yeah.
Michael:I would love to talk about that, at some point with you, man. Yeah.
Jonathan:Could we we could do another, another one on writing for sure. Yeah. Great.
Michael:Like a specific like only.
Michael:Mhmm.
Michael:Yeah. Mhmm. Oh, man. That's probably the only way to do that.
Jonathan:Yeah. We Oh. I you know, consider this like this is like opening the door, you know, conversation. Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan:You know, it's
Michael:And arranging too. Right? Arranging. Yeah. Right?
Michael:Because like so many guitar players like do you know, somebody or string players. Right? Because we have the the advantage of like kinda having all the harmony there similar to the piano. Mhmm. Like so many guitar players like they they write there.
Michael:They can write because the entry point is like the you know, we don't have to think that much about how to build chords and stuff. So Mhmm. You know, and and nowadays with like, you know, Sibelius and Dorico, the entry points are actually writing digital, you know, music in a in a software engine or is is it just makes it so so little friction.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:And it might be an interesting thing, you know, to to have that like an arranger track, know. And like is in particular like an arranger track, right?
Jonathan:Mhmm. And
Michael:in a composer track too, you know, composition is very rich area because like you like you were kinda You you were showing me I guess it's the only other episode, but you you were taught that that was really powerful the way that the way that you guys talked about the way to like write for a specific person on the guitar. Yeah. And that the composer coming over, the guitarist going over to the composers and collaborating like Working together.
Michael:That whole
Michael:Yeah. There's the guitar stuff but then there's also just the world of like composition. Like Yeah. The world of music that you can play on the guitar that's not necessarily written for the guitar.
Jonathan:Yeah.
Michael:Yeah. That's really fertile too and it's hard to like cram it all in.
Jonathan:Yeah. It is. It is. Yeah. And I I love I love to talk more on that.
Jonathan:And it's interesting. I guess this is the first experience, and it's only the second episode, but it's the first experience where I feel like we need more time.
Michael:Oh, yeah.
Jonathan:And not saying that I didn't need more time with the first one, but Yeah. You know, Jason is a super busy, super super busy guy, you know, touring and all sort of stuff. And Sure. And I know we all have our things, but it reminds me of a a conversation I have with one of my mentors who said like, yeah, like, you could you could record the podcast but like, you know, split it up because you're gonna have a lot to talk about, you know. And and he's right.
Jonathan:Yeah. He's right. You know. Absolutely. To to cover this world.
Jonathan:And and and also I see it too, you know, I'll I'll kind of speak openly here. And that is that is like, you know, this is meant to be a resource for those who are curious, of course, about the art of doing this. And that could be for the player. It could be for the composer, someone who wants to write for it, someone who just wants to discover more ways of seeing it and things like that. And that it can evolve much further than us having the conversation.
Jonathan:But some of this we can notate. Some of this we can compile into documents of some sorts. Things like that. That's how I see it. That's how I see it.
Michael:Totally, man. Yeah. That's awesome. That's great. Yeah.
Michael:I'm like so humbled that you asked me to do it. And it was so much fun and I would yeah. I'd definitely love to do it again.
Jonathan:Yes. Yes. Definitely. I I loved hearing you play. That was that was so cool.
Jonathan:Thanks. That was so cool.
Michael:Thanks, man.
Jonathan:It sounded great and
Michael:Thank you. I love playing, man. So yeah, I love Yeah. Be cool to just do one of just playing too. Yeah.
Michael:Right. Get more into that. Kinda get more into kinda talking about talking about some different approaches and more practical like kinda things. Mhmm. That's another possibility.
Michael:Mhmm. Yeah. Sometimes sometimes it's like in in this in this forum, I'm not in it very often, but it seems like an opportunity to talk about like less to be less like education oriented. Yeah. Like, I'm not like trying to teach something.
Jonathan:Right.
Michael:I'm trying to, you know, trying to talk about how I do things. Like, really, like how That was kinda how you started. Was like, what are you doing and how do you think about the things. But it could, you know, it could also be good to like, I could see that there could be value in some people coming to to this platform and wanting like practical a practical takeaway. Mhmm.
Michael:You know, something that wasn't so, what's the proper word? Like, I I think of Kumbaya, but it's not the right
Jonathan:Like like on the fly?
Michael:Or Yeah. Like or like, know, for me it's like it's like a personal thing. It's like Mhmm. Some of the stuff that I was talking about is maybe it shouldn't. I wouldn't
Jonathan:No.
Michael:I mean, I wouldn't want it to apply directly to somebody else. Right. Like, would be cool if they took, you know, took something from it and then made it their own or whatever. But whereas, like, you could talk about, alright. Here's how you could think about a a c seven or like, you could talk about those wide intervals and it's like, well, here's how I actually like make that happen.
Michael:Mhmm. Because you you know, it is there is the brass tacks element of it too. That's like another interesting avenue to explore maybe.
Jonathan:Mhmm.
Michael:So
Jonathan:Yes. Yeah. Definitely. Well, Michael, it was a really, great pleasure to have you on the Pluck today and to share all of your wisdom and experience and stories and hearing you play and hearing you, you know, you try to put into words what's happening, you know, with the guitar in your hands. It's really beautiful, really beautiful stuff.
Jonathan:And so thank you. Thank you so much, Michael.
Michael:Thank you so much for having me, Jonathan. It's an honored. Thank you. Until
Jonathan:next time. Alright. Take care.