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Rewrite your practice growth playbook.
Hosted by Dan dal Degan—known to many as Triple D—this bi-monthly podcast pulls back the curtain on what it takes to thrive as a corporate retirement plan advisor in an increasingly tech-centric business world.
As a former powerhouse sales leader at Salesforce and Oracle, now sitting on the board of Great Gray Trust’s holding company, Dan’s sales experience and curiosity provoke compelling conversations with top advisors.
Each episode of ‘Gray to Great’ focuses on the crucial parts of the business that often get overlooked: prospecting, referral business, challenger selling, client service, tech adoption, and cutting-edge marketing tactics.
This is where the playbook is rewritten, offering listeners sharp, actionable insights that go beyond investing to fuel lasting growth and success.
Tune in to learn the strategies that separate the leaders from the pack—because in sales, there are no gray areas.
Dan Dal Degan (00:00)
Welcome to Gray to Great, the podcast where we will pull back the curtain on what it truly takes to thrive as a corporate retirement plan advisor in today's tech-powered business world. I'm Dan Dal Degan but all my friends call me Triple D. As a former sales leader and CEO and now board member of Great Gray Group I know that success in this field goes beyond the numbers. In each episode, I'm going to team up with one of your peer.
retirement plan advisors to bring you the strategies that separate the best from the rest. From prospecting and referral business to challenger selling and tech adoption, we're diving deep into the parts of the business that too many of us overlook. Whether you're here to sharpen your skills or if you're looking for the next big idea, this is where the playbook gets rewritten. So get ready for sharp, actionable insights that'll take your practice to the next level. Because in sales, there's no gray area.
Dan Dal Degan (00:47)
Welcome to another episode of Great to Great. I'm Dan Del Degan, your host, and we're joined today by Mark Forbes, one of the leaders in the retirement plan advising community that's been kind enough to offer his time and perspective and valuable experience for us. Welcome, Mark. Great to have you.
Mark Forbes (01:03)
⁓ thank you, Dan. I really appreciate it. Looking forward to our conversation.
Dan Dal Degan (01:06)
As am I. And as we talked in preparation for this, you intrigued me with the concept of the starting line and the finishing line. I'd love to dive into it at the start here. I think our listeners will get a lot out of this. So tell me, what is the concept that you introduced to the planned participants with whom you work? How about the idea of planning for a finish line?
Mark Forbes (01:25)
Well, again, great to be here. So planning for the finish line, everybody has to get up to the starting line, right? And when I'm talking to participants, my goal, I try to really take complex issues and break them down so people can understand. So get to the starting line. They have to understand that the concept of saving your retirement can be a little intimidating for some. But really, when you break it down,
you put the basic building blocks of making my contributions and these dollars go into investments and we don't want them to be intimidated by the investment side of thing. That's what we find sometimes is people say, hey, I've never invested before. I try to break that down. So breaking that barrier, getting them to that point where they say, yes, I can get this process started. I don't have to start with 10%.
I think that's the big thing is making it a simple process so they can understand easy concepts, non intimidating. I think we can get them rolling down, get them started and they'll hopefully have that good finish years down the road.
Dan Dal Degan (02:27)
That's great. And along those lines, as you're introducing the concepts of the starting line and the finishing line for plant participants, what are some misconceptions that you find are common that you're having to dispel along that journey?
Mark Forbes (02:39)
Yes, well, and going back to that concept, it's not where you start, it's where you finish. So going back to the starting line, I tell people, look, if your budget allows contribution-wise for 2 % or 3%, that is a perfect place for you to start. There's not a perfect roadmap for anybody. Everybody has their individual roadmap. And what I try to encourage them is,
get into the game, and then every year, let's look and see if you can make an additional one, maybe 2 % contribution to build that over time. The concept of small increments over a period of time is something that we try to emphasize. And so you cannot get it all done in one year. You can't get it done in five years. It's a marathon, not a sprint. And so we want to ease people into that.
Some people want to be aggressive right out of the starting blocks, right? They're ready for a hundred yard dash and we're ready to talk to them. But some people need that ease into the process of saving for retirement, learn the basic concepts. We don't try to go over anybody's head. want people to feel comfortable where they're at and where they can actually, where they can be 20, 30 years down.
Dan Dal Degan (03:45)
very great habits to form, including as you're suggesting, Mark, the notion of really getting in touch with the value of compounding interest. The earlier you start and the more regular the habitual contributions, the better off as you're nearing that finish line years later.
Mark Forbes (03:58)
Yes.
Absolutely. We use visuals in some cases. Some cases we don't. But one that I really like is it shows a chart of, hey, you're at 4%. You continue that path through the next 20 or 30 years. You have a nice retirement income. But let's look and see if you do that extra 1 % per year. And it's exponential growth that when they see it visually on a chart, it just kind of almost
takes a breath and say, wow, I can actually have that amount and it's just 1 % more per year in savings. And, you know, we go into the discussion of pre-tax and Roth and what's best for them. But the basic concepts are get those dollars automatically from your check. Sometimes for people, that's just the toughest thing is they want to save, but they don't know, hey, this is an automatic process. it's automatic. I don't have to do anything every paycheck. Great. Because I would probably spend that money and
I would have probably done the same thing in my early years too. it's, you don't, learn. Yes, yes.
Dan Dal Degan (04:54)
Power of automatic withdrawals, right? I don't have to
think about it and I'm not likely to spend it on something else if it's automatically invested for me. That's great. So Mark, let's go back in time a little bit. Love to hear your origin story. What were the events in your early stages of your career as a young man that led you to retirement plan advising?
Mark Forbes (05:01)
⁓ Exactly.
Well, probably like a lot folks say don't go to college or don't go to some type of a school to become a retirement plan advisor. So I graduated in the business degree. I knew I wanted to get into business, but I actually started my career with principal. It used to be principal financial group prior to that. I'm aging myself. came in a couple years before it was called Banker's Life before that. And I worked
Dan Dal Degan (05:41)
I'm old enough to remember
those brands as well, Mark. Yeah. It's right.
Mark Forbes (05:43)
Anchor's Life, a good old Drake University in Des Moines, Iowa, where it's kind
of a breeding ground for a lot of principal reps, which is a good thing. But I worked two years, my last two years of college, about 20 hours a week. And I was fortunate enough to pay medical claims, which got me up my foot in the door. And after graduation, boom, I got a group and pension sales job in the Chicago office for three years. Did a good enough job where they wanted to move me to Atlanta.
Dan Dal Degan (05:50)
That's right.
Mark Forbes (06:09)
and did the same thing in Atlanta for seven years and then ended up in Tulsa for a few years. it was intentional, unintentional, I guess. You find that path that has interest. It got more more interesting. It was a way to generate a good income and it built over time. So was a good career path for me. I tell people I'm institutionalized in the retirement sector. So that's pretty much all I've ever done.
Dan Dal Degan (06:32)
That's
great. I love the double entendre of that. ⁓ And you were, it sounds like you were open to opportunity. As simple as that sounds, don't you find as you counsel young people, both, in your own family, as well as outside among your friends, that being open to the randomness sometimes of when and where opportunities arrive at your doorstep is so key? Has that been your experience?
Mark Forbes (06:35)
You
Yes, you have to pivot and you have to try a number of things. Now, mine maybe didn't so much go a number of things, but I was open once I got my foot in the door with principal. Who knows, it could have gone in a different direction. can't say for sure nobody else would, but absolutely. You want to have a wide net and look at those opportunities. I talked to some folks that were in this business. They were successful.
They like their job, they woke up in the morning and said, hey, this is a pretty good thing to do. And quite frankly, I don't want to make it sound, I don't want to say cheesy, but you're out there every day trying to help people, honestly, is give them the guidance to get them on the right path so they can actually save for retirement. So it's fulfilling when you see somebody you've been working with for 15 or 20 years as an employee at a...
whether it's white collar, blue collar, whatever it is, and they actually start to achieve their goals, it's a good feeling, it really is.
Dan Dal Degan (07:51)
And I love the themes you're using to describe this journey, Mark, as you've used the phrase education and comfort level many times in describing the journey that you and planned participants go through. What is your method for that? Because as you also appropriately said, these themes can be somewhat intimidating and even archaic depending on a planned participant's background. And how do you demystify that and make it more approachable?
Mark Forbes (08:14)
Yeah, so we try to, you again, it starts with the easy concepts. If we're having a one on one meeting or a group meeting and we do a lot of both. ⁓ Some of my communications are on site. We do teams, we do phone calls. But at the end of the day, we have to convey the message that saving for retirement is is very important. And quite frankly, a lot of times
I'll use reference that, you probably have family members that are retirement age. And they'll say, yes. And I will reference that. And they'll say, well, some of them are doing really, really well. And some of them aren't. And so they can see the end result, even though they might be 20 years away. They can see which path they potentially might go on. And so trying to give them that concept of, saving for retirement, basically, you're giving yourself
an opportunity. So when you get to that point, I tell people when you want to turn the work switch off, you determine that it goes off. And when it goes off, how long it goes off, some people retire and come back and have to do something else. They get bored. But the ability to have that financial freedom and knowing that they can they can rest and relax a little bit once they hit their 60s or whatever the age is, is extremely
important and it's a great feeling for us to see people achieve those goals.
Dan Dal Degan (09:29)
You've hit their mark very subtly and quickly on another really important concept in retirement planning, is emotional readiness. Financial considerations aside, you mentioned, know, folks that might get a little bored and decide to go back to either the same vocation or something else. What's been your experience with trying to help your plan participants with that part of the preparation to still find purpose and meaning in their activities post retirement?
Mark Forbes (09:55)
You brought up a great segment or great look at this because I've had conversations in the last number of years and even very recently with some folks that are very well set and ready to retire. They're afraid like a lot of folks, okay, when I pull this rip cord and I'm not having to go to work, what's my purpose in life? What do I wake up and do?
Dan Dal Degan (10:17)
Right. Yeah.
Mark Forbes (10:19)
There's certain things everybody can do, but you have to have that motivation to get you going every day. And a lot of people struggle with that. truly, it is tough. I mean, I can think if I, I certainly want to retire someday, but if I woke up tomorrow and said, hey, I don't have to go in and work. What's my plan? And so that can be equally important. At that point is finding that next stage in life, whether it's.
Taking a part-time job to keep yourself busy or you know your wife tells you to get out of the house You're boring. You're boring me. You're driving me crazy work for nonprofits things like that So those that's the other side of it is you've got to have that that strategy a lot of people will build that pile of Assets and cash and then what do I do now? And so it's kind of interesting. You know, the dog finally catches the car what happens next and so
Dan Dal Degan (11:13)
Great analogy.
I love that because you're right, most of the retirement planning goes into the financial considerations and not as often perhaps on everything else you're describing about finding purpose and not just filling a calendar but giving somebody that next chapter in their lives to feel like they're getting self-actualization just like they did maybe even more so they did in their primary careers.
Mark Forbes (11:15)
What in the world?
Yeah, it's their mental and physical health then at that point. If they've got the financial part of it taken care of, it's the mental and physical health that they want to maintain. it can be a great adventure, but you want to have some type of a roadmap of what you want to do, for sure.
Dan Dal Degan (11:45)
rep.
And how often do we see people hit the reset button on retirement with retirement 2.0 when they say, I'm going to do it right this time.
Mark Forbes (11:54)
Absolutely.
Yeah. And I've had people that have enjoyed their career, but once they retire, then they find a whole other career and something that whether it's a hobby they can actually make money in or it's something else. So it just gives them that next chapter to look forward to. But we want to help them find that next chapter, which is extremely important because
Dan Dal Degan (12:15)
And those
must be really gratifying stories when you see them unfolding.
Mark Forbes (12:18)
Absolutely, yeah, it is. It makes you feel good. And I'm thinking, well, I need to get my ducks in a row so I can have some success like this. I don't want to be.
Dan Dal Degan (12:23)
It does at
some point point back to us like, hmm, maybe I should practice what I preach.
Mark Forbes (12:29)
Yeah, can't watch Jeopardy all day and
yeah, can't watch Jeopardy all day and play golf every day. So you need to need to have a path for sure.
Dan Dal Degan (12:36)
you.
So speaking of that finish line, metaphorically that you're highlighting for us, and I love that concept, as people are getting close to the finish line, you've used this phrase that I love as well, which is, it's not much how much you have, it's how much you keep, which certainly suggests being prudent with tax planning. I'd love to hear you expand on that and what your experiences have been with helping the plan participants that you guide through that.
Mark Forbes (12:59)
Yeah, the spend down of what you have and that financial look going forward because I was just reviewing some charts by a very large investment company and it's very true. The tax planning side of it is extremely important. You want to partner with either your CPA or an advisor that's very adept in that drawdown of funds and how that's spent.
But the other interesting thing was there's a misconception sometimes too when people, okay, I know I can spend X dollars every month. Well, As we age, most people actually continue to decline their spend, even though the medical costs go up, your other associated expenditures tend to gradually go down over a period of time. So I think that budgeting aspect and the tax spend down aspect is extremely important.
And that would factor into, you know, legacy assets that you want to pass on to a family or another organization. So I think it's extremely important that that overall planning is put into play. you know, it's been said many times, people climb mountains and they say, but the riskiest part of that whole climb is really the descent. Right. So you want to make sure that as you descend and as you spend those assets, they're spent wisely.
from a tax efficiency standpoint and nobody wants to run out of ⁓ retirement funds. those are the things that we try to encompass with our team and talk to people about that spend down and make sure that they're on a good path for sure.
Dan Dal Degan (14:32)
The descent down the mountain. I'm gonna remember that metaphor. That's a great analogy. So as you are coaching the plant participants with whom you work, Mark, especially on that part of the journey where they're nearing that finish line and you're taking into account all those tax considerations you mentioned, the idea of a personalized plan.
comes into play. How do you do that at scale, especially when you work with organizations that have many planned participants and some of your interactions need to be one to many? What do you advise participants to do to have some hands-on guidance to really craft the right kind of personalized plans?
Mark Forbes (15:05)
Yeah, first thing is whether they work with myself, our firm, our team, or somebody else, make sure you have somebody you trust and you have confidence in and what they're, the advice that they're gonna provide to you. It can be challenging for individuals to find that particular person, but our goal is to align them with those types of services if they're.
Dan Dal Degan (15:28)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Forbes (15:32)
looking for that and it just depends upon what their current financial situation is. But we want to give them all the financial planning tools and spend down information that's possible out there. So I think, you know, it's that we have a lot of participants that may have their own other financial advisors and we just want them to, you know, pair with somebody that's going to look for your best interest from a fiduciary standpoint and, you know, have your family involved, make those types of decisions. So I think
Dan Dal Degan (15:39)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Forbes (16:00)
very, very important from that standpoint.
Dan Dal Degan (16:02)
That makes a lot of sense. And as you prepare the planned participants with whom you work for that part of the journey, do you see ⁓ a common thread in the kinds of questions or even concerns or anxieties that people are dealing with that might have you playing both operational guide, but in some cases, family counselor as well?
Mark Forbes (16:21)
Uh, yeah, it can, it can sometimes, you know, because there, there's so many, uh, important decisions that they, have to make in, that stage in life. They're, I tell you one thing that's a fair concern for folks now is, know, social security is, is obviously going to be a part of, um, retirement plan right there. A lot of people have concerns about 20, 33, 34 is there going to be a benefit reduction there? What are my healthcare costs going to be? And so.
Those are real questions. What's the family situation? Do the parents still have to provide some type of financial support for other family members? And so those can get a little, those conversations can get a little personal, a little sticky, but they need to be had. Because you work your whole life, you wanna have that successful retirement. So you've gotta consider all those factors. The financial.
and the personal side of things. And sometimes those aren't easy conversations, but they have to be had. They really do.
Dan Dal Degan (17:18)
And that's great. And so what you're bringing is a willingness to ask questions which might feel on the surface to be uncomfortable, where you really got to probe into that next level of planning and readiness, which is great. And I'm also curious, your firm, Strategic Retirement Partners, you mentioned the rest of the folks with whom you worked there as a team.
Do you find yourself besides advising plant participants? I imagine as younger people come through their career paths that are the younger version of Mark Forbes that you recall, how much of your time and energy do you find is also spent talking with other up and coming plan advisors on the journey and what you've learned from it?
Mark Forbes (17:57)
Yeah, a decent amount actually and You want to mentor and be a resource to those folks because I tell you what I've been in this business for about 35 years so I'm aging myself and there are always things that I come across that I didn't I wasn't quite aware of that or some new concept and I want to I want to you know help that young advisor that young consultant out so they can make the best decisions possible
for their particular clients, but it's just a tough business. And quite frankly, the advisor community, we're getting older. There's a lot of us gonna be rolling out of this business and we need more good, smart, fiduciary minded advisors. So we wanna bring in the best we can to kind of continue on that legacy with our clients and deliver that service because it is important. mean, some people say, well, the advisor.
They're just charging a fee. Well, yes, we obviously we do earn a fee for what we provide. But at the end of the day, I think that guidance and advice, hopefully they find that value. And I think in most cases that guidance and advice with a fee is probably going to be more beneficial than if they try to do it by themselves.
Dan Dal Degan (19:03)
Certainly, and especially as
you look at the delta between well or not so well managed plants over several decades. The amplitude just widens. If you're doing it right, the upside is tremendous and certainly many times over it pays for itself.
Mark Forbes (19:20)
Absolutely, absolutely. As I say, I'm an amateur plumber, but I know my limits. So when it gets a little murky, I call the real plumber. And lot of people can manage a lot of their financial aspects of their life, but there are certain things that you probably want to call in a professional to give you that guidance and put you in the right direction.
Dan Dal Degan (19:41)
That's a great comparison. We could probably apply that to any of the home fix-it skills from electrical to carpentry to HVAC. Yes, I can relate to that. So, Mark, let's go in the imaginary time machine we often talk about, which is to go back in time to give advice to a young Mark Forbes. What would you focus on?
Mark Forbes (19:48)
Yep, absolutely. Know your limits.
boy. Well, yeah, if I start with finishing up college, probably study a little bit more, but that's okay. That's past behind me and GPA is a GPA, but I, in all honesty, I think you kind of alluded to early when you are looking for that career path, have a widen that and look at all financial, if you're going into the financial side of things, there's a lot of different things we can do. But I would say,
partner with a firm and people that have never won a very good reputation, good solid financial base, but a firm that's going to also want to bring you up, up, up, not just be a person there, somebody who's partner with another advisor, somebody who's willing to give you that advice to get you to that next level. And that's tough. mean, a lot of people are so competitive, but you want to work with people that...
have the firms and your best interests in mind. And so that could be challenging, but I think if you do your research and look around, I think that's great. And be a sponge. Learn from everybody. Probably learn from more of your mistakes, certainly, than the winning situations you're in, because that's how things are figured out, right? So learn from everything that you do.
Work hard every day and it will come back in return for sure.
Dan Dal Degan (21:21)
That's great advice, Mark. Even good for old guys like me.
Mark Forbes (21:23)
Well, you know, we still got a little mileage left on the wheel. So there you go. Yeah. Yeah.
Dan Dal Degan (21:27)
That's right. We're never done learning. That's right. Well,
thank you, Mark. I appreciate your generosity in sharing both these experiences and your point of view on this whole journey with retirement planning. And join us soon for another episode of Gray to Great. Thank you.
Mark Forbes (21:41)
Thanks, Dan, appreciate it.
Dan Dal Degan (21:43)
Thanks for tuning in to Gray to Great. I hope you're walking away with a few new ideas, a few bold strategies, and a bit more fuel to take your business further than ever. If you found today's conversation valuable, make sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with a colleague. The best way to stay sharp is to keep learning together. So I'll see you next time right here where we will cut through the noise to bring you what really matters. Until then, keep pushing forward because there's no gray area in achieving success.