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Conversations from the Hype Network; Business innovation, technology, and current events from a faith-filled perspective.
Arun: Well, welcome back,
Pastor Vance, Pastor Adam.
The band is back together.
Hey, I never left.
That's true.
You did, but we left you in the room.
Oh, right.
I was like, oh, you did.
Yeah, where am I?
Yep, yep.
So we'll be back, Pastor Vance.
Ps Vance: What was I up to?
Yeah, where were you?
Oh, actually, we were in Italy.
We were in Milan, uh, one of our
designers, actually the best designer
that actually designed everything FloCon.
Cool.
Her name is Jane.
She is actually the sister, this
is all, it's all intertwined, okay?
She is the sister of our
London campus pastor, Davide.
Her name is Jane.
She got married.
Milan, she invited us and so we
decided to respond to that invite
and Italy is always a good decision.
So Not a bad decision at all.
It was fantastic.
So we it was actually a quick trip.
We spent just a few days there
And you know what Italian
weddings They do it right.
Oh, never been.
Arun: Tell us.
Okay, so,
Ps Vance: so, so here's the thing, like we
felt so privileged because we got invited
to like the family rehearsal dinner.
We're like in like we're family.
And I'm like, wow, this is
this incredible, such an honor.
And first and foremost, just the.
The legacy of Italian family, right?
Uh, just the, the, the grandparents, the
parents, they're all Christian as well.
And so just deep roots in, uh, faith.
And it was, it was beautiful
from that perspective.
And then the actual wedding, Italian
weddings, beautiful scene on the
countryside in Italy, three hour ceremony.
So I don't even know if it goes as long
as Indian weddings, but, but three days.
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's three days,
but you know, for an American, right.
It's a little bit disorienting, um,
especially in the Italian heat in the
countryside, uh, to be three hours
because you have, you know, multiple
pastors that want to do sermonettes.
You want to have like every fam,
family member say a speech in the
ceremony, not even at the reception.
You want to have a benediction
and exhortation and encouragement.
You want to lay hands.
Everybody's laying hands.
Even Kim and I got called up at
one point because we're pastors
and we're like, Whoa, I didn't
know we were in the program.
Three hours in.
You start realizing, Oh, that's probably
why their divorce rates are so low.
Ps Adam: I don't want to go
Ps Vance: through that again.
Ps Adam: Because
Ps Vance: it's like you held
this hostage for 12 hours.
Yeah.
So it was a 12 hour day.
Uh, but it's beautiful.
It was incredible.
They show
Arun: love through food, right?
How was the food?
Ps Vance: Food was amazing.
I mean, Italian food's
the best in the world.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was really, really good.
Yeah.
Arun: So I just wanted to
jump right into one topic.
So there's a overarching kind of
theme that I want to talk about.
We got through 25 episodes.
This is the first time we're
back since the 25th episode.
So I kind of wanted to, it's been two
episodes, but I wanted to like realign,
you know, while we're doing the podcast.
Yeah, let's recalibrate.
Recalibrate and stuff, but before
we get into that, I just wanted
to drop a little piece of news.
Okay.
You know, uh, the DOJ is here.
They dropped an antitrust lawsuit.
That's right.
I just wanted to speak to all
the Android users out there.
We might get iMessage on Android.
So I just wanted to throw it out there.
Hold strong guys.
Hold strong.
You know, I
Ps Adam: wouldn't be, I
wouldn't be mad about it.
Arun: Yeah.
Ps Adam: Cause the green bubble,
I know it's such a, like a minor
inconvenience in life, but when it's
one person in a group chat of 15,
It really wrecks the whole chat.
It really, it really
wrecks the whole chat up.
Uh, and you know, all this time,
I don't think you're changing.
I don't think you can
have going to convert.
Some people are called, some
people aren't, and they will
never be converted to the way.
Ps Vance: So we are renting this pod.
We just take technology.
We take technology and put
theology in all of technology.
Ps Adam: Yes.
And anyway, but Hey, that could happen.
If that happens, I ain't mad about it.
Isn't
Ps Vance: that already
happening in the EU?
Or, or is it that, uh, basically you can
install any app or is it also iMessage?
Arun: Yeah, I think iMessage is just
like a symptom of like a larger problem
of Apple making it hard for you to use
anything outside of their ecosystem.
Um, and I think the EU is the one that's
really pushing it because, um, they are
the first ones to start this kind of like,
Anti competitive kind of nature that Apple
has with like the rest of the ecosystem.
So is that anti competitive?
Like
Ps Vance: let me ask you this
opposite of anti competitive.
It's weird.
Right.
Ps Adam: At what point,
let me just ask this.
Like at what point, so Apple develops
the, what we would call the best in class
product and it's charged at a premium.
I mean, to get the iPhone, you're paying
probably four to five times as much as
an Android, uh, in some cases, for sure.
But, That's not like
there is no other option.
If you're not willing to pay that,
you can go and buy an Android.
Is this become non competitive,
like whatever the push is?
It's just a question.
I'm not even advocating for
Apple's position or what.
But at what point does the government
come in and say, Oh, you can't be
too popular or you can't be too,
you can't make too much money.
Ps Vance: I think that's
the question, right?
I think the question is what should be the
government's involvement in this scenario.
So if we just talk about business, I
do think that, you know, The government
should have some involvement if there
are things like collusion, right?
So if there are, you know, let's say Apple
and Microsoft are the top two companies,
um, creating, uh, phone devices.
For example, that's probably not
the top two, but let's just say for
example, um, or even like a better
example, Apple and Google, if they were
price fixing, if they were colluding
to price fix, yes, the government
should get involved because that is.
The definition of anti competitive.
Right.
They're not competing anymore.
Right.
Right.
Um, in this scenario, it's not
clear to me what's anti competitive
Ps Adam: because it's not a monopoly.
No, you have options.
You have options.
Like if Apple was the only phone
maker and no one could break in the
market because they just monopolized
every telco, everything there was.
I get it.
I feel like that is, you know, some
backdoor deal that was done with a
government agency or something like that.
That's what you want to government for.
But there is, there's even more than
just Google, Android, and Apple.
There's
Ps Vance: other competitors.
And, and the, the thing that I think
people are calling foul on and using
it as an example is the App Store.
For example, right?
So if you have an app in the
App Store, Apple charges on all
transactions within your app, 30%.
Yep.
Again, I don't think that's competitive
because there's other App Stores
outside of the Apple App Store.
Right.
So if you don't like their
rules, go to another App Store.
You know what I mean?
And so I feel like just some of the
places where it's calling foul is
not Actually, in alignment to the
true definition of anti competitive.
Um, there has been situations
though, so like Epic Games.
Right, where they literally
kicked the bucket.
off, I believe.
Uh, and I do think that didn't help
Apple's case because it was a situation
where they literally didn't allow
Epic Games to be in their ecosystem.
Ps Adam: What was the
reason for kicking them off?
Ps Vance: I forgot what it was, but
I think it was something along the
lines of The way that they were maybe
trying to backdoor the transactions,
um, and things like that, because
they didn't like the 30 percent fee.
But again, if that was the case,
I could be getting it wrong.
Don't quote me.
But that's just another example of like,
hey, at the end of the day, if you're not
playing by their rules, it's their rules.
Ps Adam: That's my point.
That's my point.
Like, I just feel like there
is, you know, we're always at
risk of government overreach.
Oh my goodness.
And I am very much a proponent for
as small a government as possible.
Yes.
And I do think that government is
essential in certain sectors and
certain, you know, uh, when you're
creating rules and things like that.
But, You know, I think the, in a
capitalist society, the advantage of
actually building the best in class
product and dominating a market is
different from monopolizing a market.
And I feel like what we've got with
Apple is Apple is dominating the market.
Well, probably not even, I think,
you know, when we look at Apple
usage to Android usage, definitely
within the U S uh, globally though,
Android dominates the market for sure.
So if we'll just look isolating
U S are we trying to penalize
somebody for dominating the market.
Because of the culture here
where people are prepared to
pay top dollar for best product.
Arun: It's true.
Yeah, and I think the argument for
Apple is that they've always built
hardware and software together.
And it's compatible.
And so the way that they pitch it is
that the software that we do it today,
The reason that we build it is for
the hardware that we built, right?
And so Google does the same thing.
And people say, Oh, no,
Google is more open source.
You, anybody can build a version of
Android if they wanted to, but Google also
has certain rules within that as well.
So either if you follow their rules,
you'll get all the latest updates.
If you don't, when you fork their
projects, you will, you'll get broken.
If any changes come, if you
don't follow the rules, right.
It's kind of like you're saying, if
you're going to play in this space,
It's your decision if you want to,
you know, play by the rules or not.
So yeah.
Um, so it's interesting.
It's interesting to see.
I just hope that it does because
iMessage is all I asked for just
to kind of end this narrative of,
you know, one way or the other.
Do you think
Ps Adam: iMessage would be enough
for the government to go, okay, cool.
Is it the blue green bubble thing
that's actually at the basis
of it or is it the app store?
I honestly
Ps Vance: think that there is politicians
and legislatures right now like doing
all of this because of the green bubble.
That's what I wonder, like it
seems so It's personal and petty.
It seems petty, exactly.
Arun: Let's sue them.
At the end of the day, I feel like,
you know, all this is Wait, wait,
Ps Vance: let's break it down though.
When we talk about the annoyance,
It's not the color, right?
Is it the color or is
it the functionality?
The color
Ps Adam: just represents
the functionality.
Yeah.
That we can't heart the same box.
Yeah.
We have to start a new
text that says, Hearted.
I, you know, it just
really messes up the feed.
You can't thread it,
Arun: you can't, yep, yep, yep.
But the funny part is, and I don't
want to get too technical about this,
the only reason that's happening is
because Apple hasn't upgraded their,
like, Ah, you said this before.
The episode, uh,
Ps Vance: 14.
5, where he had a whole diatribe on, It
was at minute 43, if you need to fast
Arun: forward.
I will die on this hill.
Um, but I do want to talk
about one other thing.
There was, um, recently on Twitter, if you
were scrolling through, you probably were.
There were so many videos of this
new AI platform called arcads.
ai.
Um, and what they did is they have a bunch
of actors where you could just feed in
any information you want and you could
generate all of these ads really easily.
And it looks like indistinguishable
from any influencer marketing
that you would see out there,
like the shaky video recording in
the car, all that kind of stuff.
And I'll pull one up for you guys
to see, but I was thinking about
this while I was watching that.
I was like, there's so much like
revolutionary tech that's coming out now.
And like consumer tech
that we can get to use.
And I was thinking about like this
tinfoil hat kind of moment of government.
When like the internet first
came out, it was like a military
kind of experiment first with
ARPAnet GPS that they first did.
And then it came out and
we were all able to use it.
Right.
There is advanced AI.
That I feel like is already out there.
Of course, that we're just not aware of.
And we are, this is like the
trickle effect of it, you
know, being exposed to us.
I don't know what you
guys think about that.
I don't
Ps Adam: even think that's tinfoil hat.
I think we just recently saw this,
uh, water vapor machine and it
literally draws molecules of water out
of the air and turns it into water.
Okay.
So you can, and, and everyone
was amazed by this tech, but then
they say, hang on, Hang on, the
government's had this for like 10 years.
So the government has been able to
go into remote areas, just put one of
these machines and draw water out of the
air and feed their troops with water.
But the government has
had it for 10 years.
That on the commercial market
would be industry changing, right?
You know, you think about how
many people in poverty and they're
digging wells to find water.
Well, we've got machines that can do it.
Okay.
So the government will always use
a system for maybe a decade before
it goes to public, public market.
So what we're seeing, I think in the
AI market is definitely in technology
and industry and all that kind of stuff
within the, probably the military sector.
Way before we get to public market.
For sure.
I
Ps Vance: mean, even with
like cell phones, right?
Military had this technology decade
before it was commercialized.
I like that point.
Oh yeah, for sure.
I like that, that point you made
though about, um, you know, uplifting
people out of poverty, uh, I think that
that is a pretty significant point.
And over the course of time, why concepts
and ideologies like capitalism and just
the idea of technology and innovation is
something that we're so passionate about.
It does.
Lift up human beings, right?
It does raise the tide, right?
It does create opportunity.
Um, and these things are really
important for us to protect
and to keep talking about.
Um, so, but yeah, I, so what is this?
Arun: So this is arc ads.
So if you were to watch this and I
can, I can put the audio on pretty low,
but, um, Like it sounds just like the
way that the camera works, very shaky.
It looks like somebody's
recording in their car.
You can't really tell
all the like, hang on.
So you're telling me
Ps Adam: this
Arun: isn't a, this is
an AI generated video.
That's not a person
Ps Vance: that's.
So
Arun: that's based on a real person.
Okay.
They have actors in store.
That's why they're able to
get it such high fidelity.
But, but what she's saying is prompted.
It's all prompted.
Wow.
So like, if I wanted to create marketing
ads for like overflow or vibe, Okay.
You can hire.
Oh, like, so if I
Ps Vance: wanted to do a bunch
of reels talking about overflow,
different cuts, it would be the same
Arun: person.
Ps Vance: It would be me.
Arun: It would be based on me.
No, it would be based on their actors.
I think that's how they get it.
God.
Okay.
Ps Vance: So they've trained on a preset.
Uh, that's why their quality is so high.
Okay.
That makes sense.
Arun: And so it's a, it's a
cool idea of how to do it.
So you basically have all these
actors, but you can just generate
content absolutely like quickly
without people being able to
realize that it's, you know, I mean,
Ps Adam: unfortunately the, the
actors have a limited lifespan, right?
Because, you know, if you're selling reuse
the same product over the same actors,
like, hang on, this guy's just pushing
people's products, you know, the whole
Arun: market right now for AI
influencers, they're, they're creating
their own following their, Oh, stop it.
Oh, it's that makes sense.
It's
Ps Vance: because it's kind of
like, um, cause they can be perfect.
Ryan Reynolds.
Yeah, there might be a limit,
but he can promote 20 brands.
Exactly.
25 brands.
Exactly.
Arun: So why not create an influencer now?
It just does your bidding forever.
You don't have to worry
Ps Adam: about anything else.
Right.
Yeah.
Sure.
So if they get to a level of fame,
then it actually makes it more valuable
for the, to have that person, that AI.
But promoting a product.
Ps Vance: Um, can it do campus passers?
No, I'm just kidding.
Arun: I mean, honestly though.
Yeah, why not?
Different locations.
I mean, we have holograms coming out too.
Languages.
Oh, the dubbing right now is amazing.
Unreal.
I would love to have, we
should start using that.
Yeah, we should.
Yeah.
Whenever we do a global Sunday,
Ps Adam: let's, let's do it.
Whenever we try it Sunday, let,
and then we can do a report back
on the pod, on the hype pod.
Well, even just
Ps Vance: to watch parties in
Ps Adam: Frankfurt.
Why don't we just try it?
Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
I, because they can do it it in real time.
Right?
Or maybe slightly delay.
Arun, how many languages
do you speak with ai,
Arun: Anything with AI guys?
All right.
So before we do it, so this is
what I wanted to talk about.
I just wanted to get into that.
I was just thinking about some stuff.
Thank you.
So I wanted to realign on some
of the vision for the podcast.
Um, I know in our podcast
descriptions, we don't really do it.
I love
Ps Adam: that.
We're not doing this in
a, in a planning meeting.
We're just going to do
this live on the pod.
I was like, is this
Ps Vance: a Q1 review publicly?
Yeah, I think
Ps Adam: so.
I think, are you, are you
reviewing this right now?
I think so.
I'm ready to be reviewed.
You know, I think people will be surprised
to know that we've never had a, This
Arun: is the only time
I happen to you guys.
It would be very sad
Ps Adam: if they
Ps Vance: weren't surprised.
Ps Adam: They're like, they're listening,
we ain't surprised at all guys.
You ain't fooling us.
We knew.
You ain't fooling us.
It's very obvious.
I love it.
I'm sorry.
Arun: Hopefully they're surprised.
Um, so we always, the one through
line, intersection, faith.
Uh, technology, um, innovation,
that's like the, the one through line.
Um, the one thing that we've thrown
around a lot is kingdom builders and
like, we're looking for kingdom builders.
The, I don't think we've ever
really defined what that is.
Is it the products that you're building?
Is it how you're building?
Is it, you know, just because you're
a Christian, you're a kingdom builder.
So yeah, so can you guys
define what that is?
What is a kingdom builder?
Ps Vance: Yeah.
Vince, you want to start?
Yeah.
I mean, this is actually a
really great topic because.
Part of the impetus of even this podcast
and the wider network that we're building
here with hype Is to be a broader net to
those that are actually not yet kingdom
builders Right because kingdom builders
is a very specific thing But we know
that A lot of times people are just on a
journey and that journey for the sphere
of influence that God has blessed us
with is typically in the realm of company
building, entrepreneurship, innovation.
Um, even if you're at a big company,
uh, there's an entrepreneurial spirit.
You're an entrepreneur
within these companies.
And so a lot of the things that we talk
about in this podcast and through our
network and through our events are really
centered to equip and empower that person.
Typically in tech, but not even
in tech that has a spirit of
entrepreneurship on their life.
That's trying to better their life.
That's trying to better their life through
career advancement through entrepreneurial
ideas that can be monetized so that
they can provide for their family.
But where kingdom building comes into
play is that if this hype network can
be a place of equipping, it's for a
very specific purpose, because we're
not bait and switching anybody out here.
We're pastors, right?
Um, and we have started
this incredible community.
called Vive Church, which most
of the network is a part of.
But we have a lot of people now
coming from all different churches
all across the nation at this point.
But a good core of this network knows
about Vive Church, this church that
we started, and we're not backwards
about the fact that a lot of what
we do is tied to how do we Further
expand and extend the kingdom through
this container of vibe church.
Um, and if you don't go to vibe church
and you're meant to be a kingdom
builder at your local church, awesome.
Praise God.
Then that's contextual to you.
Um, and so specifically, quite
specifically what a kingdom builder
is, is somebody that sees their
career and their resources and their
finances, but As a means to extend
and expand the kingdom, right?
Not just for themselves, not even just
for providing for their family, or even
just providing a personal legacy, but
to be able to submit a portion of that
unto God in a way A connection with
community to grow the local church, right?
And so that's what a kingdom builder
is, is, is literally if we believe
the kingdom of God is the bride of
Christ is the church, then we have
as Christians, um, and especially
as entrepreneurial Christians that
are making money, that are building
businesses, that are serving people in
the marketplace, have a responsibility
to extend and expand the kingdom.
Ps Adam: Yeah, I fully agree.
I think the, uh, a more simple simplistic
way to put it, the way I put it is kingdom
builder is another way to say motivation.
What's my reason?
What's my reason to actually
optimize my talents and my giftings
in building capital and building
companies that can produce high
yields, not just for self, not just
for selfish gains, but for selfless
kingdom building the kingdom of God.
And so.
But what we find and what I have
found over the years is even company
builders can run out of motivation.
Oh yeah.
Why am I doing this?
What's the reason?
Just to get more money.
I'm quite comfortable.
Well, kingdom building gives a brand
new motivation to say, well, I'm going
to kill it in business because the
kingdom has a large gap of the vision
is here and the gap is finances.
Let me fill that gap.
And, uh, that's what a kingdom builder is.
It's a minister in the marketplace is
somebody who's using their business.
Even if their business isn't
necessarily kingdom focused, right?
So they may be building an, a product,
uh, you know, say it's Uber or some
product, it's not, not kingdom focused,
but the kingdom yield is from the
profitability of that company because
those yields actually flow into
the kingdom to advance the kingdom
Arun: purpose.
So then while, so while the product
might not be kingdom focused directly,
Um, do you guys feel like as a kingdom
builder, there's certain values that
you need to impart, um, onto your
business, or is it still just about the
yield that comes back to the church?
Ps Adam: Yeah, I think you definitely need
to have a kingdom focus as the, as the,
you know, like, let's put it this way, as
the CEO, the founder, your orientation is
we're going to build this to XYZ, right?
Uh, for, for this purpose.
So the orientation has to be as
a board, are we okay with giving
away X amount of our surplus?
Or are we, are we really good
at building into the foundation?
Like, uh, one of the things we've got a
lot of founders who will do their founders
pledge right from the beginning of the
company formation when the company is not
even profitable, but when this becomes
profitable, we've already committed way
back here that at the foundational level.
We're building the kingdom of God,
not just a product or a company.
And so I think, you know, one
of the base levels is, are we
going to tithe off our profits?
As a company, not just an individual,
um, they're kind of kingdom builder
principles, or are we going to have a
goal of raising about X amount of dollars
each year through this business to be
a vehicle to give above and beyond?
Arun: Okay, cool.
Anything else about that?
Ps Adam: No, that's exactly right.
Ps Vance: And I, to, to your
question about, um, Does it need
to flow with kingdom principles
in terms of how you build your
company to be a kingdom builder?
Um, I'll say it the other way, to
be a kingdom builder, it definitely
needs to flow in terms of finances
to building the kingdom where
you're not a kingdom builder.
Right.
Right.
But in terms of should you
build your business with kingdom
principles, I think that would
maximize your opportunity, right?
If we believe that the Bible, um, is a
blueprint and has undefeated principles
that have stood the test of time.
If you're looking to build something
enduring, if you're looking to build
something sustainable and not just flash
in the pan, it would behoove you, you'd
be smart to build with kingdom principles.
Ps Adam: Yeah.
One other thing I would say in there is
kingdom builder might be the inspiration
for someone who's like motivation.
It was also guardrails.
To be a i'm either a kingdom builder or
an i'm an empire builder and sometimes
you can be an empire builder because
you're building your empire, but You
become very selfish and it becomes greed.
Yeah.
And I think having an orientation
towards the kingdom Really takes
you out of building your own empire
and i'm building a bigger kingdom.
Yeah
Ps Vance: Somebody said
this recently to me.
I thought it was pretty cool language.
He's like, um, Are you
driven or are you led right?
Right.
Because, uh, the spirit
leads and demons drive.
Um, and so are you, this guy's from
the South, um, you know, are, are
you building a legacy or a dynasty?
Arun: Yeah.
Ps Vance: Uh, legacies last, um, right.
Dynasties, you can build it, but along
the way, you'll probably destroy as well.
And so you should
Ps Adam: text him back.
Are you building a kingdom or an empire?
Exactly, exactly.
Ps Vance: I'll help you.
I'll just end on this clip.
Uh, minute 14.
So, so, I think that's right.
I think there are things that you
can do to be successful, obviously.
The reality is, is that success going
to sustain, is there going to be a
multi generational legacy to it, right?
And we know that the kingdom endures.
That the church has been going
for a couple thousand years,
and I don't think it's stopping.
Um, actually, quite literally, it
will continue until Jesus comes back.
Arun: No, I love that.
And so, what I want to do also on this
pod is to see if, like you said, how do
we bring more kingdom builders Right.
We have a lot of builders, maybe more
people that might not be builders,
but how do we bring them, you know,
with that purpose, like you guys are
saying that like kind of defines it.
And so there was this, um, idea.
So I listened to, you know, a
bunch of like startup founders, um,
Millionaires, you know, kind of what,
how they think I like to quote unquote
millionaires, quote unquote millionaires,
you know, uh, you never know.
Right.
You never know.
You really never know.
So, um, there's this, um,
idea from Paul Graham.
He's the co founder of Y Combinator.
Um, and so he.
Positive, like you shouldn't
try to be a visionary.
And so let me just read
off, um, what he was saying.
So he kind of compared with like Bill
Gates and Mark Zuckerberg, where they
started with something very small.
And then they tried to solve that and
then from that grew into something bigger.
Whereas I feel like as visionary,
you just stumbled upon it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ps Vance: No,
Arun: but I
Ps Vance: mean, like exactly where
we just stumbled upon the Facebook.
Okay.
Right.
But
Arun: you try and solve these like
niche problems or these smaller
problems instead of trying to
tackle this much larger problem.
Right.
Um, and then maybe that larger
picture becomes almost impossible.
Like you'll, you'll hear like, oh,
it's like tackling, uh, um, like
a hill versus like, We're having
a mountain or something like that.
Um, and so like, but it's kind of counter
to how I've seen you guys, you know,
build with vision, like grand vision.
So just kind of curious what,
what your thoughts on that is.
Ps Adam: Yeah, look, I, I'm
completely opposite opposed to that.
I believe in vision, but I
don't believe vision gives you
clarity to what you're building.
I think vision creates ambiguity
to what you're building.
So what vision does is it
creates problems or creates gaps.
Okay.
And what it does though, is it
allows gap fillers to come in.
Not everybody is a visionary.
I think.
You can cast a vision, but most
people try and cast vision to
get clarity about their life.
They put a vision board,
this is what I'm going to be.
That's not really vision,
that's just a road map.
Vision actually creates an
impossible task for you to do on
your own, or it creates a gap.
So every time we cast a vision
to the church, I'm creating this
huge gap of finances, wondering
where's that going to come from.
Huge gap of skill, who that's going to be.
And that's what it does.
It creates an ambiguity that has
started to create a necessity for
me to find the right people to fill
those gaps and the right things.
So I think, and you know, the
hill versus the, uh, the mountain,
um, you need different gear.
You know, you don't use ropes and
picks and spiky shoes or whatever you
use to climb a mountain, climb a hill.
You just walk up.
Right.
And so it's a less
friction, uh, mode for sure.
But to prepare for a mountain requires
a different preparation process.
Um, I don't think they're
in the same category.
Ps Vance: Well, first and
foremost, you can't convince me
that, uh, Mark Zuckerberg and
Bill Gates are not visionaries.
Okay.
So they very much are.
Uh, they're in the category of Elon Musk.
They're in the category of, uh,
these great business builders.
Um,
Arun: but do you think just to
interrupt, do you think they
knew how big their companies were
going to get when they started?
Ps Vance: Um, I have no idea.
I don't know them.
If I were to have a take, I would
say that based on what I see from
afar with somebody like, uh, Mark
Zuckerberg and Bill Gates and what
they put out, um, into the world.
They seem like people that
are very intentional about
thinking about the future.
But
Ps Adam: I think to that point, maybe not
when he was in college, Mark Zuckerberg.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm talking about starting.
I think at that point maybe it
was just to find girls, right?
But I think now the way that
he's building is with vision.
Oh, a hundred percent.
Interesting.
So there is, it may not be at the
conception because he was a teenager,
you know, like a college kid and all
of a sudden they got traction, which
sometimes you don't have vision until
you've got a little bit of traction.
Yeah, sure.
Yeah.
Then vision kicks in.
Arun: And that's what I think I'm
trying to see if, you know, Maybe that's
what Paul was trying to talk about
was when you're first starting, maybe
you haven't had any traction at all.
Well, I
Ps Vance: think Paul is
talking his book, right?
So what it is, is that he
has a business model with my
Combinator of wanting to index.
Right against people that actually
know how to solve problems and build
businesses, but he only needs to
get, um, a certain amount, right,
that become actually viable to
have really epic returns for him.
And the more and more he can attract
people that fundamentally know
how to solve problems, the more
and more he can exploit market.
So, for example, right, there was a
whole season where it felt like Y.
C.
Was, um, exclusively funding like
B2B software businesses that were
like plug ins to salesforce, right?
Because that was like a land grab.
Enterprise sass was, it
was a land grab, right?
Um, does every one of those founders
need to be a visionary to spin up
an enterprise sass software so that
they can flip it to salesforce for a
billion dollars in five years so that Y.
C.
Can get a return because they
get 7 percent of that company.
No.
Right.
They don't necessarily need a
bunch of visionaries to do that.
They just need a bunch of really
smart people that know how
to solve problems to do that.
So he's kind of talking his book,
but as a, as a, if you widen the
aperture for just the YC game that
they're trying to play, if you talk
about, The Steve jobs of the world.
If you talk about truly the
iconic companies, absolutely.
These companies are visionaries, right?
Like you cannot create a
trillion dollar company of you.
Jensen is absolutely a visionary.
Have you been to the Nvidia HQ?
He's absolutely a visionary.
Ps Adam: Yeah.
And I don't think that.
You can overcome the struggles of
what it means to be a founder and
entrepreneur without a vision.
I think just the struggle set that
you're going to actually encounter in
the process of being a company builder
will, you will give up without a vision.
You will hit the roadblock and
you won't push through the wall.
Um, do I think that there is, um, a
process where vision is, where like
it doesn't have to come at the very,
very beginning before you start your
first, you know, thing, you can just
build somebody else's vision for awhile.
But I think to be.
Yeah, at the level of a trillion
dollar company, you know, a unicorn
I think has to come around vision.
Arun: Yeah, no, that makes sense.
So so maybe let's um, reframe this
problem So now it's about how do
I find as a kingdom builder or
maybe a budding kingdom builder?
How do I find a product?
Um, that I'm trying to be
passionate about, build and
get my vision around, right?
Like you're trying to find the product.
And so one way that, um, I heard
about it was that you, the greatest
products are solving problems for
the people that are building them.
Like, like that's what you're
trying to solve, right?
It's like some issue in your life
that you are trying to solve.
That will build the greatest products.
If you're trying to solve somebody
else's problems, you might not
have the same kind of passion.
Ps Adam: I think what's better
way to frame that is what
solves everybody's problem.
Not somebody's problem or just my problem.
Cause it could be just a unique
me problem, but what's going to
solve a lot of people's problem.
We're talking about market now, right?
Market cap.
So if is the problem that I face just
unique to me, you know, even, okay.
Um, you've got a very good beard,
very great beard, but not everyone
can grow a beard that well.
So maybe you come up with a solution for
when you're shaving and you got all this
beard, you know, dust on the sink, you
know, I'm talking about I'm there, but
it's like, man, I just like a tool instead
of splashing water all over my thing.
What if there was this cool brush?
I'm just going real, you know,
granular little product design.
I designed this beard brush.
But is that just for me and the
Iruns or is that across all men?
Arun: Right,
Ps Adam: you know, so what's a
problem to all the male race?
Even the ones who can't grow beards.
You see what I'm saying?
You know like they're So I think you're
gonna say is this a problem for me?
Is this a problem for humanity?
Arun: Right.
Ps Adam: Is this a
problem for the male race?
And I think that that really is where
you've got to get a vision I think
the vision for the church It's such
a big vision because it's the great
commandment, it's the great commission,
go into all the world and, you know,
expand the kingdom of God, right?
Baptize, make disciples.
So I think when you're getting a vision,
I would make sure that the vision's big.
Okay.
Ps Vance: Yeah, I like, uh, the idea of
understanding your market and the way
that we think about it at Overflow is
we're also thinking about what can we do
to where, you know, Our product can be
something that people interact with daily.
That's like the Holy grail.
Right.
Um, right now on average people interact
with our products like monthly, right?
Cause uh, we're a giving
software and so a lot of people
are giving on a monthly basis.
So that's awesome.
That's not bad engagement.
Monthly engagement is great.
Uh, but we're always thinking about ways.
How can we start becoming, so
here's, here's a cool thing.
If you can be, if you go to your
screen time and your top apps.
If you can aspire to be in like
the top five to 10, that's so hard.
Yeah.
Oh, that's so hard.
But how cool would that be?
Um, and we just dream
about it at overflow.
Like, wow, what, what, what would
it look like if a generosity app?
Ps Adam: Yeah.
Ps Vance: Um, was a top
10 app in our usage.
Uh, that'd be cool.
What would that look like?
You could have had,
Ps Adam: uh, your, your
stock portfolio in there.
Arun: How much can I give today?
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
And that's awesome.
So Um, just looking into that as well for
like for you when you talked about growth
and you're talking about there was also
this other thing that I was looking at
where it's it's not more about growth.
It's more about retention.
So you're looking at these, you
know, daily active users for you.
monthly active users for people
that are using your platform.
How do you differentiate
between getting new users versus
retaining the users that you have?
Ps Vance: I think it's
all about retention.
Yeah.
Um, I probably have a different answer for
the church because I know I have the same
Ps Adam: answer for the church.
Well,
Ps Vance: for, for overflow specifically,
it's all about retention, right?
We, Uh, especially when you
have a limited sum of resources.
Uh, so that's why in tech startups,
you raise rounds successively, right?
So maybe over the course of
time, you'll raise 100 million
in total before you go public.
But no V.
C.
Typically, we'll give every
single round up front.
That's why there's a seed and an
A and a B and a C because they're
seeing if with the this stage, this
trunch of financing, you're capable of
getting to the next milestone, right?
And so, um, With a very limited amount
of resources for each stage of our
business, we need to make sure that
we're not spending it on people that
are just going to leave anyways.
Arun: Yeah.
Ps Vance: Does that make sense?
And so we have to make sure
that our retention is actually
over a hundred percent.
Right.
And you might think that's a high bar,
but that's where you need it to be.
Right.
Is you need to make sure that, okay,
somebody that's entering in as a giver
on average into overflow, are they still.
Doing a giving activity
this time next year.
Did I retain them?
And actually why I say over 100
percent is because the Holy Grail
is not that they just gave the same
about, but they, they gave a little
bit more because, you know, the thing
in finances specifically is inflation.
Right?
And so you don't even want them to be
giving the same dollar amount you want.
And so obviously some people do
turn right, but then you want some
people to be And so we're, we are
like, that's one of our top metrics
is it's called net dollar retention.
And we actually look at it, not
from just our customer standpoint
of what our customers are paying us,
but from our actual like end donors
and their activity on the platform.
And that's a good measure of,
Hey, is our platform performing on
behalf of our customers in a way
that's allowing our customers to be
successful in stewarding their givers?
Arun: Yeah.
And before I let you answer about the
church and the difference there, I think
we talked about iMessage and Apple ingest
earlier, but that stickiness is the
reason they do that is to make sure that
people don't leave their platform, right?
For sure.
And it's a key metric for every
company that's out there, right?
Lock them in, lock them into
your ecosystem, forgiving.
I'm not sure how you guys are doing
it, but it's like, How do I make it?
So this is the number one place to give.
Exactly.
And now I don't, if I anything give,
I'm gonna go to overflow to give.
And that's like, like the mindset you
need to have for all your customers.
Right?
But you were saying once I, once I've
Ps Adam: tasted the blue bottle
bubble, why would I go green?
Why would you go green?
Why would, no, I think it's
the same for the church.
And it's probably shocking to people
to hear that like, hang on, what,
how's the church more about retention?
But over the years, you're gonna find,
once you are a church builder, you see
how many stupid slogans churches carry.
Mm-Hmm.
. And one of the popular ones that I've seen
over the years, and there's still churches
today that will have this as their motto,
or maybe their mission statement, it will
be, we're a church for the unchurched.
So I come to your church, I
expect to see no Christians.
I expect it to be completely
for unchurched people.
Well, then you're not a
church, you're a social club.
Because a church is
where the saints gather.
It's where the saints grow.
It's where the saints find community.
It's where the saints learn about Christ.
It's where we gather
around the Lord's table.
It's where we worship, where
we, uh, we grow in our teaching.
We learn here preaching.
Now we bring unchurched in.
But the hope is not that
they stay unchurched, right?
It's that they become churched that they
become christ followers And so the idea
is that we are trying to yes have an in
Uh a front door, but we're meant to have a
very very tiny back door That the the back
door is so tight that nobody gets is lost.
We're actually building the
church So it's not just a through
street or a through tunnel.
Let's come through touch them and see
them You No, no, the church is about
retention, net retention across the globe,
that each person who converts to Christ
actually stays a Christian, stays in
the church and then builds their legacy
and their family within the church.
So we are a church for church people.
We want to have the greatest
church in the world, uh, that
will have new people coming in.
But ultimately, we're not
built for the unchurched.
We actually, because if we were a
church for the unchurched, we wouldn't
do worship, we wouldn't do preaching.
We wouldn't do any of the,
we wouldn't do communion.
We wouldn't do it, speak in tongues.
We wouldn't pray for people.
We would do a concert.
You know, I mean, we would do, maybe put
a little film on or something like that.
What would unchurched people like doing?
Ps Vance: What's your
perspective on, um, evangelism?
Um, how do you think about that for VIVE?
So I think
Ps Adam: evangelism is a key.
It's not even a key role.
I think it's a key metric for everybody.
I think everyone's an evangelist.
So there's no like office of
the evangelist at VIVE church.
We want to empower
everyone to be an inviter.
Okay.
So therefore, when they're invited into
the atmosphere of faith, They hear a
message, it's challenged within them,
and then they go on the journey of
becoming a faith follower themselves.
Yeah, so evangelism is not an event.
Evangelism is a people.
It's a people it's an invitation
your world is meant you're
evangelizing your world So when
you think about the church, right?
there is actually a tipping point where
The amount of new guests coming in has to
be met with uh, uh a certain percentage
It's usually like an 80 20 rule That
80 have to have the culture or be faith
based Before you lose the culture really.
I mean you look at this weekend.
We're going at the time It's recording.
We're going into Easter weekend And
this weekend we're going to have high
visitor ratio Well, we also want our
church to all show up so that a new
guest doesn't talk to a new guest I
want a new guest talking to a regular.
I want someone interacting with someone
who's in the church Because when a new
guest talks with a new guest they get
critical What do you think of service day?
Well, man, he uh, His accent's
a bit weird, you know, whatever.
But, but if they talk to a regular,
they're going to be like, Hey,
what did you love about today?
Not what did you think?
So that's not in a critical response.
It's in a complimentary response.
I'm drawing out the best bits
and I'm trying to integrate
you into the community.
So that's retention through evangelism.
Yeah.
You know,
Ps Vance: this, uh, new thing
that we did in this past year with
instituting membership, That's one
of the next steps, actually the
final step or next steps program.
It'll be really interesting because I
think it'll be probably the most accurate,
um, metric that we've had ever at Vive
Church to truly measure that churn.
Arun: Yeah.
Ps Vance: Right.
Because if ever, if somebody went
through that whole process of
becoming and signing up to be a
member and making that commitment,
um, Um, and would have to, you know,
intentionally opt out of being a member.
I don't know how exactly we
would do that mechanically.
Um, that'd be a good, you know, metric
to understand and also understand why.
Right.
Arun: Oh, sorry.
Just really quick.
Can you describe for the people that
maybe don't go to Bible Church, what it
means to be a member of Bible Church?
Ps Adam: Yeah, a member of Vive Church
is, it's actually a new thing that we
implemented about a year ago because
as the church has been growing across
the globe, um, I started to realize
I don't know who's in the community,
who's not in the community, who's a
visitor and who's just on the fringe.
And really as a leader of the community,
I need to know who is the community and
who's looking to come into the community.
And so there was no differential line
in the early years of the church.
We categorize membership as activity.
If you were a giver, a tender, a regular
attender, then you were a guest, uh,
by default, a member, but as the church
grows and you can't really measure
individual activity as accurately, we
really felt like now we need to create
a membership so that people who are
saying, Hey, I'm part of this church.
And there's a differentiator
between who's just an active
goer and still on the fringe.
Now to make a member up, there are
certain characteristics of a member.
You attend more than you don't,
you commit to the tithe, and
you commit to the vision.
That you are actively engaged
financially, uh, and physically in
the church, showing up, turning up.
Um, and it's not like a country
club membership where you, you
pop in, you know, once a month.
The idea is that you're actively
building with your presence and your
gifts and your talents to the church.
And so it's a membership agreement.
That says, Hey, I want to say, yes,
I'm a part of this church and there's
membership benefits because, you know,
you think about the size of the church
when we were small, you know, there was,
you know, maybe a handful of weddings
a year and maybe hopefully not, but
maybe there was a, a few funerals here
and there, but when the church gets
to thousands of people, And there's
hundreds of weddings and number of
funerals that can happen in a year.
The demand on the staff
and the team can be huge.
If someone just loosely is connected to
the church, well, it becomes a membership.
Um, I said benefit to, if you're a
member of the church, where you can get
your wedding done through the church
Ps Vance: and your
Ps Adam: funeral.
Ps Vance: Kind of refreshing
ourselves on this.
It reminds me, we used to say this
thing, uh, we even used to say it at
VIBE, but the church world used to say
it, belong before you believe, right?
Actually, This new membership thing
that we're doing in the past year is the
highest level of belonging Because it's
the highest level of commitment, right?
It's not just a flip it Oh, I belong
because I showed up and spectated
a worship experience, right?
And I felt seeded that worship experience.
No, I belong because I committed to
going to these courses I committed
to understanding the culture.
I committed to understand what I'm gonna
sign up for and I decided to Intentionally
that I would like to sign up for that one
Ps Adam: of those heinous statements
that took him to the church like church
for the unchurched or belong before
you believe was very hard to belong
in the church in the body of Christ.
If you don't believe in Christ, so
it became a really quippy tool that
empowered people who really didn't
know what they were talking about to
say, well, even if you don't believe
we're such an accepting community.
Well, no, you're attending the community.
You don't belong in the community.
It's, it's like saying, I'm
a part of a pickleball club,
but I don't like pickleball.
Ps Vance: Right.
Ps Adam: That's crazy.
That's crazy
Ps Vance: talk.
Right.
And I think we get confused sometimes
where, um, if, if we say, um,
hey, you're not a member in this
church, uh, that's automatically,
uh, saying we hate that person.
It's like that couldn't be
further from the truth, right?
We believe that people are created
in the image of God, that people
that are image bearers of God,
they deserve a certain dignity.
And the church over history has
been one of the most compassionate
people groups of all time.
Literally where churches have
existed is where transformation
in communities have existed in the
way that you just treat people.
Somebody else, like another human
being, but it also doesn't mean, so I
actually have this other thing where
it's like, sometimes I feel like the
altar calls and some services at some
churches that I've been to is too easy.
You can like, kind of like put
a little finger up and say,
you can scratch your face.
Like, yeah.
And it's like, it's like you're opting in.
Have we taken this?
Like, if you just believe in receive.
Verse out of context, because,
because the thing is like.
It's almost as if, if you make that
decision, it's an awesome decision
because it's really great news.
It'll change the trajectory of your life,
but it's almost a decision of like fully
radically submitting all of your life
Arun: to
Ps Vance: a whole new way of living.
Correct.
And I feel like people sometimes
don't understand the gravity of that.
It's that's a, Big decision.
I love the way that you
Arun: described it once about when
you come up to the altar, you're
preparing yourself to be altered.
Yes.
And it's like, I think we've discussed
it before, but it's like you don't just
come as you are and stay as you are.
You're coming to be changed.
So like when you are making that
decision, it's almost a disservice if
the church doesn't Like implore how
difficult of a decision that really is.
Oh,
Ps Adam: you know, we, you,
you just mentioned it before.
I think people would probably hear me say,
um, whoa, pastor Adam, that's so harsh.
You can't belong if you don't believe.
Okay.
I would say I'm more caring
because I'm not just caring
about their attendance in a seat.
I'm caring about their
transition of their life.
I'm caring about their transformation.
So I'm not saying you belong here until
you believe, because I'm going to make
sure I do my job to help unpack the
gospel and get you into a believing state.
That's what I believe.
Now, ultimately, uh, if it's
convenient or casual, we say it
this way, slippery in, slippery out.
That's why we built steps into the church
because you have to take big steps out.
It's like churning as a customer.
You want them so integrated into the,
into the platform that for them to
take out the platform, that's good.
They have to go through five or six steps.
Because it's so integrated in
different areas of your life.
I want to subscribe.
But what is the reason?
Exactly.
And I think that's what really it
should look like to retain like their
whole families in, you know, it's
not just their Sunday attendance,
but I'm building into the vision.
I'm on a team.
I'm using my gifts.
I'm really connected to community here.
That, for me, is what we
call the five finger grip.
And the enemy is always trying
to pull people out of the church.
But if you've got a five finger
grip on, meaning giving, serving,
uh, friendships, um, family, kids
in church, I've got at least five
fingers on this hole in this church.
But if I've only got attendance on
Sunday, that's like a one finger grip.
I could easily get that
ripped out of my hand.
Ps Vance: Well, that's right.
I mean, it's kind of for our word
this year, uh, deeper connection.
I actually do think most
people just want community.
And what's harder for
people is deeper connection.
Correct.
Vulnerability.
Right, because at the day, the
church is the family of God.
And so to decide to be part of a
family, if you really think about
that, that's a big decision, right?
Well, because your whole world
Ps Adam: changes.
Ps Vance: And it comes with a lot of mess.
Yes.
It comes with, uh, a lot of dynamics.
Mm-Hmm.
. And, um,
Ps Adam: I tell the
story of our friend Pete.
Yeah.
Remember when we did CrossFit?
Yep.
And, uh, Pete was a, a, a ex bikey.
Mm-Hmm.
spent a lot of time in prison and he was
at the CrossFit gym that we would go to.
It was Vance, myself, me and
Adam Han, uh, for a while.
Yep.
And, uh, but, but Pete, he called
me Preacher and I said, Pete,
why don't you come to church?
Mm-Hmm.
. He came to church.
Tattooed up and, um, he's
sitting on the front row.
I'm preaching.
He responds to Jesus.
Epic moment where he's on the altar call.
He's crying.
I'm crying.
This is awesome.
Lead him to Jesus.
I go to him afterwards.
I said, Pete, that was awesome.
How do you feel?
He said, you know what?
I feel light.
And I'm like, you feel light?
And he goes, yeah, I feel
like a weight is lifted off.
I'm like, that's exactly
what you're meant to feel.
We hug each other.
And then he's going to bounce.
And I sit on his way out.
I said, Pete, I'll see you next week.
He goes, yeah, what's next week.
And I said, this.
He's like, Oh, this is every week.
You see, it wasn't just a decision.
It's about a discipleship.
It's about a, my life
is going to change now.
My habits, my patterns, if I have any
chance of actually sustaining this walk
with God, I need to reorient my weeks.
And this is where I think
a frustration comes from.
Pastors around casual church attendance,
especially in places like California,
when there are so many things vying for
your attention, people think pastors are
just want more people in the service.
No, no, we care about
your spiritual journey.
We care about how your life is going
to look when you don't have the
consistency of Sunday attendance.
On your radar and it becomes casual
because you're not really going to
have the opportunity to grow deeper
in christ Without the cadence and
the rhythms of weekly disciplines.
Ps Vance: Yeah, I I heard this said
the other day I thought it was so good.
No is a no to one thing Yes is a no to
a lot of things Right, and so I don't
think people really realize that when
you say yes to jesus You're actually
inadvertently also saying no to a lot of
things, and I don't mean that to paint God
in a picture of being a no God, because
we know he's a yes God and an amen God.
But at the same time, there is a
lot of things you are choosing now,
um, in that decision to follow Jesus
that you are now foregoing, right?
And, um, yeah, I, I, I like that,
uh, You know, example of, of Pete,
because, you know, even in that
example, what you're trying to help
disciple him on is now, Hey, there's
a, there's meant to be a new focus
Arun: on
Ps Vance: your life, right?
There's, there's this actually rebranding,
uh, you know, uh, process that we're
going through at overflow right now.
And we're looking at all of
our competitors and one theme
that we actually identified in
all of our competitors is that.
They all are going, uh, you know, we talk
about zig and zag on this podcast a lot.
The way that they're zigging is
they're all saying they want to be
the one stop shop technology platform.
for all churches, um, which kind of
creates this situation where they're a
jack of all trades, master of none, right?
You know what I mean?
And so while they're
zigging, we're going to zag.
Um, actually part of our new
brand refresh is actually
talking about this idea of focus.
We're never going to build a CRM.
We're not going to do video streaming
for your services, but we will be the
best fintech platform for the faith
space the world has ever seen, right?
And because of that focus, we
are so fired up because we know
it's going to bring potency.
There's going to be power.
There's going to be an opportunity
for us truly to be the apple, right?
The best in class solution.
For that lane.
And I, in the same way, I do believe that
there is this call back for churches.
Right.
And I'll even say this, this
call back for pastors to start
remembering, Hey, what are the best
things at the world that we are?
As a church, what has God called
me as a pastor or maybe you're, um,
a staff member at a church, what
has God called me to do primarily?
It's not that you can't do more
things, but it's like primarily
what are we called to do?
I love what you said before, Pastor Adam,
it's the best thing that a church can be.
Arun: Yes.
Ps Vance: It should be a Hub Ed activity.
Yes.
It should be at all
these different spheres.
Yes.
Should be an empowering place.
But at the end of the day, if it's
all those things, but it's not a great
church, then it became a community center.
Arun: Exactly.
Ps Vance: Um, and so I think
that's like really important to
understand what your core is.
Arun: Yeah.
I love what you said about, um,
when you say yes to something, you
have to say no to a lot of things.
And I think that might be something
that's a struggle for a lot of people
that are trying to figure out what their.
Idea is it's, I think a lot of
people like to be the jack of
all trades, the master of none.
Cause when you take that risk of
saying this is the one idea I'm going
to pursue, um, I think that's like
a hard decision to have to make,
but I think you do have to do it.
Like you have to say yes to this
idea and put all my effort and
love the problem and go for it.
Like what kind of advice do you guys have
to people like taking risks in that way?
Ps Adam: Yeah.
Well, I mean, one of the chapters in my
new book is, uh, no is the greatest yes.
And that is like being able to say
no to things empowers your yes.
It creates a potent yes.
So the fact you look at marriage,
what marriage is the one yes.
And how many people on the planet?
How many women on the planet?
There's a billion.
Four billion.
Four billion no's is what you're saying.
Because I'm saying yes to one person.
Good.
So no to everything else is a
very strong and empowering yes.
And I think that what becomes,
uh, what even mitigates risk
Is defining what my yes is for.
I'm going to say yes to building
this, not this and this and this and
this, but I'm going to build this.
I think that that definition
actually helps you be more risky.
Ps Vance: How have you
navigated pastor Adam?
Um, things that you have said yes to
that maybe over time has been clarified.
Maybe that should have been a no, or
maybe in the season it should now be a no.
How have you navigated that process?
Ps Adam: Yeah.
Wow.
That's a great question.
I think the, uh, I think age maturity,
uh, will help you illuminate what
you probably were ignorant of before.
Um, I think saying yes to certain people
in different seasons, um, I would say
no to now, uh, knowing what I know
about what it takes to build things.
Um, I also think that one of
my greatest strengths is one
of my greatest weaknesses.
I'm a believer in people
saying I'm the same.
And, uh, at the same time, if I start
not believing in people, I'm going to
lose really kind of the core of who I am.
Totally.
And so I think you'll have to be
able to, I put it this way, you've
got to be willing to be hurt.
You've got to be willing to make it wrong.
Make a mistake.
If you're afraid of getting it wrong,
you play it so hesitantly That you
won't believe in people unless they're
perfect good But what that also means
that if you're willing to get it wrong,
you will get it wrong But it's it's kind
of knowing how much can I just trust in
people hoping for the best Giving them
the best But willing or okay with being
disappointed and dealing with that.
I
Ps Vance: think that's brilliant.
Um, and I think about it also from
an operational standpoint, you
know, this, this example might be
a little bit trivial, but even in
my own life, I'm like, Oh, wow.
Okay, cool.
In certain seasons, those recurring
meetings made sense in the season.
I'm at right now.
Some of those recurring meetings.
Right.
Don't make sense anymore.
They're not recurring anymore.
Right.
And I'll prioritize certain people.
I prioritize my one, one pastor Adam
and certain people in my life and
my executive team and, you know,
my wife and all that type of stuff.
But then you start realizing, especially
if you have Then said yes to a couple
more things that you feel called to and
that you should be consistent with that.
You need a another level
of discipline, right?
Right.
To assess.
Okay, cool.
Yes.
My no is from here on out is
going to be the greater empower
to my yeses going forward.
Arun: But I also want to say like even
the ones when you, let's say you said
yes to something and you've come to
maybe realize I should have said no.
You still probably learned something.
And that's probably more, I don't
want to say more valuable, but so
invaluable in the way that you do have
to go, you can't get that experience
unless you've gone through it.
Ps Adam: You have to go through it.
Arun: Yeah,
Ps Adam: no, it gives you ammunition.
It's, it's literally a
definition of maturity, right?
Like even, okay, let's take this.
One of these skills that I think is.
When someone's got it, it's awesome.
It's called discernment.
Now, generally women have discernment
on another level of men, right?
But my wife has discernment.
And what people ask her all the time
is how do I get that discernment?
And she always says, uh,
you have to be rejected.
Like you have to be hurt.
You have to experience pain in life
to understand what that tonality
was that someone used when they
were saying what they were using.
And what you're picking up is the
inflections and the disconnects
that you've experienced on the other
side of hearing that tone before
to have a discernment to go, Oh,
I think they're lying to me, or I
think they're trying to play me.
Uh, and, and I think, unfortunately,
it's a learned experience through
the hardships and the sufferings.
Now here's sobriety.
Can I do that?
Not in reflection, but can
I do that in real time?
Wow.
So someone's going to be talking
about this Sunday, and I can say
it because it's going to be after
Sunday when this airs, Easter Sunday.
So this is a recap from,
uh, this Sunday was
Ps Vance: exploding, man, we had,
Ps Adam: like.
No, but just, I really want to unpack how
we often look back on a situation and we
go, oh, I learned that, that, and that.
But maturity is how do I
apply it in the situation?
Arun: That's good.
Ps Adam: You look at Jesus.
As he hung on the cross.
Wow.
In real time, he was forgiving.
Masterful.
He wasn't looking back going,
okay, I forgive him now
while they were killing him.
Wow.
In real time, he was applying
the principles of forgive.
Wow.
Crazy.
That's good.
But that's maturity.
Now, I mean, let's scale that
down to a business sense.
When I'm walking through a hardship, can
I be learning in that moment to go, Hey,
I'm suffering right now, but instead
of just praying, God, get me out, Can
I have the sobriety to say, God, show
me what I can learn in this moment.
And I do believe discernment
can be learned even for guys.
Okay, guys, come on, come on,
Ps Vance: man.
Ps Adam: It's harder, but you know, cause
I don't think we're as sharp at times.
Ps Vance: But at least in business, right?
Cause I'm learning, I'm learning.
I'm, I'm, I feel like I'm still young
and, but I'm growing and I'm learning.
And I feel like.
When I hear people within my company
or fellow entrepreneurs in the
marketplace and things like that, my
discernment is much more dialed in
than it was four years ago, right?
Like I can tell with certain
questions that I ask how deep
of a thinker this person is, how
serious they are about their idea.
Um, you know, whether or not they
are going to follow through or not.
And then I can pretty much tell like
pretty quickly at this point, or even
after a couple conversations of tests
that I put out in front, if you're a
real one, like if you're in, and I talk
about that even with my own staff as
well at overflow and I try to build in
these characteristics because I've seen
it now, I've seen a lot of examples, but.
To your point, Pastor Adam, and maybe what
Pastor Kira teaches on so well is that
that discernment does come through pain.
It comes through mistakes.
It comes through rejection.
And so Jensen, From NVIDIA said this
very jarring thing that that went viral.
He says, I wish suffering on all of you.
Yeah,
Arun: yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ps Vance: I was like, wow, I
don't know if I'd ever put it
like that to stand for kids.
But he said it because he said.
You know, I, I say that with all glee
because at the end of the day, what
produces greatness is character and
character can only be shaped by suffering.
And I was like, wow, man, I
don't know if Jensen's a believer
or not, but he's preaching.
And um, and I think that is definitely
an ingredient that's important.
Ps Adam: I think I fully agree with
that, that, uh, that concept that you
can't build character without suffering.
Mm.
I think it's.
It's that suffering, but you know
It's interesting when I think about
it in the formation of a company.
There is a season in a company where
the company You you really rely on
individual character and integrity.
Yeah, but then I think you You
have to get to accountability, you
know, so you have to have systems.
So it's interesting that you want
everyone to go through suffering,
but I think only the company leaders
actually apply that to their life.
Ps Vance: I think so.
And I also think that, uh, there's a
difference between suffering that will
inevitably happen because, uh, forces
beyond your control will always inflict
that versus self inflicted suffering.
I don't know if I believe in that.
Right.
Like if, if you're suffering because of
mistakes that you made based on negligence
and based on, um, things that you could
have controlled, um, that's something
that you definitely need to learn.
Ps Adam: It's funny, I was talking
to somebody that today, uh, and
talking to them about that there's a
company in them that they want to be
a founder of, uh, but they want to.
Spend the next few years before they
start the company, actually broaden
their understanding, learn a bit
more and make some more connections.
In the thing, And I originally
was like, bro just run out the
brick wall and bust through it.
But he said, what if I arm it up first?
And I ran to the brick wall and I thought.
Wow.
That's really cool.
That's cool.
Concept.
If your goal is still the brick wall,
but let me get some armor on that's cool.
So that I can actually endure it.
Uh, I thought, Hey, that's
a smart way to approach it.
Arun: So you've
Ps Adam: still got the goal of busting
that brick wall, but I'm just going
to fortify myself a little bit more
because my frame may be a little
Arun: fragile at the moment.
Smart.
Yeah.
But there wasn't a whole, like, I mean, I
don't know if people still say fail fast.
And it was kind of that I need to go just
see what it's like and learn the hard way.
It's kind of like the suffering.
Like this is kind of like your way
of saying I'm gonna learn faster
by going through the suffering.
The other way is saying I'll do
a little bit more preparation.
Everybody else is suffering.
Ps Vance: Yeah, maybe, maybe a better way.
A term that other people
used to as fail forward.
So maybe the goal is not like,
I can't wait to fail fast.
Like that's probably a silly mentality,
but it's like, if I'm going to fail
and there's going to be failure along
the way, probably can I learn from it?
Well, I don't think the
Ps Adam: fail fast
concept is plan to fail.
It's more like, how do I not
stay down from the failure?
It's not like, well, I'm going
quickly get some failures out here.
No, it's like failure happened.
I didn't really look for this.
But how do I not just stay in despair?
You gotta bounce back.
I gotta bounce back?
You gotta bounce back.
That's the fail fast.
I think that's the concept in Silicon
Valley is failure's gonna happen, so just
how quick is your bounce back effect?
That, that.
Yeah.
Ps Vance: That's like the
title of the podcast, right?
Like if you lasted this long, this
is your reward because that I would
say is probably top three ingredient
of being a leader, entrepreneur,
a builder of anything significant,
because you will get knocked down,
but how quickly can you bounce back?
Ooh, that's so good.
I like that.
Arun: And Patrick Kira talked about in her
last message last Sunday about, there's
a lot of us that, you know, we'll start
something, but we won't really finish it.
But I think you have to have this.
To be able
Ps Vance: to finish, to be able to be
Arun: a
Ps Adam: finisher to make sure that you
have, uh, anybody can start something.
I think starting is easy.
Starting is sexy, but finishing
completing creates a different mindset.
Ps Vance: You know what it is?
It's, it's the run example, right?
We had a run club and, uh, we
didn't, we didn't achieve it.
Um, because a lot of people slacked off.
Um, and some people didn't even start,
but some that started didn't finish.
Right.
This is what I've realized.
It's actually shame and guilt.
It is one of the things, maybe not
the whole thing, but what happens is
you get on a roll, you miss a couple
of days, and then you just throw
the baby out with the bathwater.
You're like, ah, like, and you
feel so bad and you pile the shame
and you just, you just let it go.
Right.
And you don't actually, you
don't actually do the work to
bounce back and to keep going.
Um, not even to like, Try to make up.
I mean you made the decisions the last
two days to miss it But to keep going to
try to go again to run again to start a
new rhythm to start a new habit, right?
Well, I think it's
Ps Adam: also cheap
Ps Vance: wins,
Ps Adam: right?
Like you get little wins and you you
you make that like Jesus Palm Sunday the
triumphal entry He could have been like
look the praise the people I made it No,
but he went all the way to the cross.
So he finished it I mean you
talk with someone with a six pack
You No one says got a six pack.
Now I can eat what I want.
No, no, they, they know they have a
rhythm every day to keep the six pack.
And so it's the continuance that is a key.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, this is not that
I've ever had a six pack.
I heard Arun, you talk about
when you had the six pack
Arun: back
Ps Adam: then.
Arun: This is a great pod guys.
Thanks for, um, you know, entertaining us
with all this, um, great wisdom as usual.
Uh, Um, but for I did appreciate
that's what I came for tuning to
the video podcast if you want to
see the beer subscribe, but for
everybody out there that's listening,
if you do have any questions.
We're all very accessible people.
I mean, these are probably the
two most accessible pastors.
Come to Vive Church.
Come have a conversation with them.
They drop this wisdom for free.
Yeah.
Um, but become a Kingdom Builder.
I mean, this is a lot.
What a great goal
Ps Adam: in life.
Just to set your true north as being,
I'm going to be a Kingdom Builder.
Arun: Yeah.
It's good.
We're excited to see what you guys build
and uh, cheers for the podcast guys.