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A show about Weird Stuff, hosted by AP Strange. AP interviews cool weirdos about their work, and invites friends on to discuss second sequels in franchises in a series called "Third Time's the Charm". Other fun surprises await...
Pardon me while I have a strange interlude. There is nothing else. Life is an obscure oboe, plumbing a ride on the omnibus of art. In the misty corridors of time, and in those corridors, I see figures, Strange figures.
AP Strange:Welcome back, my friends, to the AP Strange Show. Today's show is brought to you by the Fantasma Wine and Spirits wine bottle of the month club. Each bottle comes with its own ghost to help you drink the wine, so you can have a bit of you can have a bit of a good drink and good company with Fantasma Wine and Spirits. Look them up, and, we thank them for being our imaginary sponsor today. And our non imaginary guest today is a, paranormal investigator, a witch, a cosmic witch at that.
AP Strange:We're getting cosmic today. An author, a u ufologist, and an all all around wonderful person that I'm glad to actually finally talk to. Susan Demeter. Welcome to the show, Susan.
Susan Demeter:Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me on the show. I'm so excited to talk to you today. Yeah. I mean, we we talk we talk in in text, like, text format, but it's so nice to be able to hear your voice and, you know, and just have a real conversation.
AP Strange:Yeah. I agree. It it has been quite a while that we've been kinda connected through the Internet, the magic of the Internet, and I I love that. For all the bad things about social media and people talking badly about it. It's connected me to some really great people, so it's and you're one of them.
AP Strange:So it's
Susan Demeter:Oh, thank you. Yeah. Likewise. And, yeah, I feel the same way too. I I've met a lot of really great people, and I've I've been able to form some really lovely friendships with people that I may not have otherwise known if it wasn't for the Internet or social media because, you know, I'm I'm I'm still, like, I'm at that age where I still remember analog and, like Yeah.
Susan Demeter:And how amazing it was, the early days, the early like, long before social media was a thing where, you know, you could really connect with people that are into these weird topics that we're into. Right. And and, like, you could find people all over the world, and you might not, like, you know, in your own neighborhood know anybody like yourself, but there was the Internet.
Groucho:Yeah.
Susan Demeter:For better, for worse, sometimes for worse. You it's really fun to be able to connect with people that have strange experiences or are just into these subjects that, like, we're both into. It was really cool.
AP Strange:Yeah. Yeah. It is. And, I I think that part of the wonders of technology that that still amaze me because we're talking face to face and you're sitting in Italy right now.
Susan Demeter:Yeah.
AP Strange:I'm in Massachusetts and the United States. And to me, like, that was I always think of, like, Star Trek when I was a kid just watching, like, old episodes of Star Trek, and they would have a face to face video call. And the like, that's that's pretty low tech as far as that series is concerned. But I remember thinking, like, that would be so cool if I could just talk to somebody, like, through a video screen like that on the other side of the world.
Susan Demeter:Oh, yeah. For me, it was like The Jetsons. Like, oh, wow. Like, they they have the they're talking to each other, like, on TV. How cool is that?
AP Strange:And Right.
Groucho:And
Susan Demeter:being a little kid watching The Jetsons or, like, Star Trek and their communication device. Right? And now we have our our mobile phones, and that's pretty much what it is. And I'm pretty sure that some of these people were inspired by, like, Gene Roddenberry or maybe even Hanna Barbera. Who knows?
Susan Demeter:But I'm into inventing this technology, which is really
Groucho:cool.
AP Strange:Yeah. Actually, that is something I wanted to ask you about because one part of your book, Cosmic Witch, that that really made me smile and I enjoyed a lot was you talking about, like, pop culture archetypes of witch witches Mhmm. And witchcraft and how that kind of informed your own practice and your own identity as a witch. And,
Susan Demeter:for sure.
AP Strange:Particularly because you mentioned bewitched, and I'm just I thought that was great.
Susan Demeter:Oh, I understand. I mean, who who can't love Samantha Stevens? And she's so sweet. But at the same point, as a kid even, I was kind of pulled towards Andorra because Right. Andorra was just like she was unashamedly a witch.
Susan Demeter:She you know, Samantha was trying to kinda suppress her own magical power to fit in with society. And Endora was, I don't care about these muggles. I'm doing my thing. Right? So and just the way, like, she dressed and she was just this tough as nails kinda Agnes Moorehead.
Susan Demeter:I really, really was pulled in by that character, and I thought, like, she was so fun. You know, that whole series was really fun.
AP Strange:Yeah.
Susan Demeter:But, yeah, that that's a a lot of that, you know. And then, of course, you know, the movie The Craft and and Yeah. You know, it I think it helped to launch, like, a lot of witches or people that, you know, are drawn to that, which is really cool. You know, I think pop culture, of course, plays a role in these things. So
AP Strange:Yeah. I do too. And that's kinda like I mean, in starting this podcast, I had a couple different ideas for what I wanted to do. And, my
Groucho:my wonderful wife, who
AP Strange:always gives me great perspective, said, you could just do all the perspective, said, you could just do all of those things in one show. And I was like, hey. You're right. But I mean so, I mean, sometimes I'm just talking about a movie, but other times I'm talking about paranormal and spooky stuff. But I I I have long thought that these things really are intertwined.
AP Strange:You know? It's our pop culture representation of of weirdness, informs weirdness in real life, and it's kinda like a feedback loop.
Susan Demeter:So 100%. 100%. And I think it was, Whitney Stuber that was saying that we need better science fiction, in regards to his own experiences being informed by, like, 19 fifties, you know, pop culture version of aliens and and flying saucers and these kind of things. Right?
AP Strange:Right.
Susan Demeter:Yeah.
AP Strange:Yeah.
Susan Demeter:Yeah. So it does. It it does, like you know? And you gotta be careful about what you consume, consume, pop culture wise as well or take in too much of it. Like, I love horror movies.
Susan Demeter:I love love love them. It's my favorite genre. But I also have to take breaks because I do realize you're you're taking it in, And then just like doing a magical working, you have to kinda reground yourself after you you go into that kind of genre, or or any kind of pop culture because it does. Like, it it does inform
AP Strange:Yeah.
Susan Demeter:Things, you know, transpire in the real world. Sure.
AP Strange:Yeah. When I've spoken to Alan Greenfield in the past, he's recommended a a steady, a steady diet of Looney Toons cartoons and Mel Brooks movies in between heavy duty workings because you gotta keep a sense of humor with it too.
Susan Demeter:Oh, I keep a sense of humor through the working as well. Like, I just you know, I think it really like, it has to come from within yourself. And, and and if you're a trickster y, jokes y like person, if you incorporate that in, it's gonna work better for you. Like, everything I've ever done has that kind of funny trickstery type vibe. Everything that I've done that's that's worked out really well for me has had that because I think that's part of my personality.
Susan Demeter:Even my cards are like they're jokesters. So
AP Strange:Right.
Susan Demeter:It's like, you know, my tarot cards and their personality take on the the the personality of the person who's using them as well, I think. And, and and yeah. So I I incorporate it directly into I never take myself seriously even as I'm doing a ritual that I've crafted. I just I can't. I just I incorporate humor and silliness and, because it's it's coming naturally from me.
Susan Demeter:It's that's how it flows. So I think that when I'm speaking with the universe or whatever, it just flows better that way.
AP Strange:I believe so too. And, like, I've long thought that the phenomena operates better or, more actively, in engagement with with a a a form of playfulness. And and, and, yeah, and laughter. Like, that helps a lot. And, I guess that's maybe why I've never really been too drawn to, like, high rituals, ceremonial, western, like, hermetic style of magic, and I've read a lot about it.
AP Strange:And, like, when it gets to like, freemasonry pours me to tears. Mhmm. I hate reading about it. And I feel like I'm just going to mass or something at a Catholic church, which Yeah.
Susan Demeter:Yeah. No. It is there there's so much, like, there's so much like, my my husband comes. He's a freemason. His his father was a freemason in that.
Susan Demeter:And there is a lot of and even he said, like, the rituals and all that that they have to do, it is a magical working as they do it as a group even if some of them don't necessarily understand that that's what they're doing, but that's what they're doing. And it is there's a lot of understand that that's what they're doing, but that's what they're doing. And it is there's a lot of steps and, you know, the the way you have to do it in a precise way, even like the way you move your body has to be in a certain rhythm in a certain way when they're doing these things, and it can be like to me, that would drive me crazy, and I wouldn't be able to do anything magical under
Groucho:those 2
Susan Demeter:of them. That's as well. More power to these people, but it's just not you know, I'm doing the little magic.
AP Strange:But yeah. That's exactly where I'm at. And, like, I don't mean to disparage it at all because I can I absolutely understand its usefulness and the, the efficacious ness of of ritual and the passion play element of it and Mhmm? All of that. Like, I'm not saying it doesn't work or it's not good, but it's not something I would tolerate well, I don't think.
AP Strange:Like, I'm a little bit more chaotic and kind of a trickster
Susan Demeter:Yeah. Yeah.
Groucho:In my own life. So yeah.
Susan Demeter:Yeah. Yeah. You have to be able to vibe with what you're doing because if it feels unnatural to you I mean, I forget who I I was reading something. I was I I think it was a spell book of some sort, and I I always advocate people to just write their own spells and do their own their own rituals. But this one, they they were rhyming couplets, and they were beautiful, beautiful rhyming couplets.
Susan Demeter:But, I mean, I can't memorize that. I can't make I'm not you know, if I'm gonna have to try and, you know, speak in in such a way, it's just not gonna work for me. I'm either gonna be laughing or I'm just not gonna remember. So when I speak even with my deity or spirits or or I'm doing a magical working where I'm speaking, I do it from what's bubbling up from my my heart. I can't you know?
Susan Demeter:And and and that might be a joke or it might be funny or it might be but that's my personality, and that's where it's coming from. What I I I wouldn't believe in myself if I was trying to do things too too seriously. Although, I do respect people who do, and I understand that. But I just don't vibe with that. Like, I just I can't I've tried.
Susan Demeter:I can't.
AP Strange:Yeah. Well, I could see that's probably why we get along so well and enjoy each other's work because we kinda have that same mentality there. Yeah. And, also, we share the, affinity for the number 23, which which has its own trickster qualities to it.
Susan Demeter:Oh, it does. It does. It's definitely a number of chaos, and and then it's been following me. Well, it's my birthday for 1, but it's following me all my life in various ways. So
AP Strange:Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was a really cool part of the book that I didn't expect, because, I mean, I've, people that know me and follow me realize that I I I'm kind of a discordian anyway, and and discordianism 23 is a big thing. And and so, like, that wasn't what really popped up. That wasn't what I expected to pop up reading your book.
AP Strange:It's like a whole thing about 23 being a huge number for you. Because I'm like, I don't know. Is is Susan a secret Discordian? Or
Susan Demeter:It just happened to work out that way. Yeah. But I probably am a bit of a Discordian for sure. Like, I I'm very eclectic. Like, the book is called Cosmic Witch, I had a number of titles that I was I was thinking of, and I was lucky that I had a publisher that kinda gave me a, you know, a lot of leeway with the naming of the book, at least in English and, and and the artwork and all that kind of stuff.
Susan Demeter:And I had a couple of different ideas and and but cosmic, which was the first one, and and I was kinda like, oh, but maybe I could come up with something a little bit better than and then I did the cards, and the cards kinda told me to go with cosmic witch. Not tarot cards, but a set of cards that Greg Bishop had developed that were pre our ufology tarot cards. And they just have various different sayings on them, and they have a sigil on the back. I call them the disruptor cards. And, and I was thinking, okay.
Susan Demeter:I asked the cards, like, which, you know, what should I go with? And it just literally, the card I pulled out of, I think, there's maybe 50 or 60 of them said, go with the first one. Okay. That's pretty pretty direct cards.
AP Strange:Yeah. Wow.
Susan Demeter:And and that's how it it became the cosmic witch. But, yeah, it's it's I'm actually very eclectic, so there's there's a lot of things that I bring into my own craft and, that I would consider pulling from other traditions and, like, the but that little bits that work for me. So it's a little bit chaotic. Yeah.
AP Strange:Yeah. I mean, it is well yeah. And it's it's eclectic and very personalized for you Yeah. Which I think as we've kinda already talked around is is, it's really important in magic to to have your your own personality, expressed that way, you know, where where yeah. Because you bring UFOs into the witchcraft as well.
AP Strange:It's kinda like, hey. You got some UFOs in my witchcraft. You got witchcraft in my UFOs. But Exactly.
Susan Demeter:That's kinda unexpected. Nobody expects the UFOs in witchcraft.
AP Strange:Right. But it also makes perfect sense. I mean, there's so much corollary there. Like, I like how you you talk about visions of flying and and yourself flying, and then you talk later about the, Wizard of Oz and the flying monkeys, and then also, like, UFOs. Like, there's there's a poetic kind of subtle, numinous, overlap between Mhmm.
AP Strange:Between witches and and UFOs that maybe isn't apparent on the surface. But if you think about it in terms of what I call reality rhyming with itself is is Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it it does. It makes perfect sense even even if it seems unexpected.
Susan Demeter:It it it does. It does. When when I've had a number of people who've read the book and that have had UFO experiences and that have said to me, you know, I never related my UFO experiences before with my witchcraft, but now it's making sense to me. And Right.
Groucho:I I
Susan Demeter:like that. I feel good about that. If I if I've helped in some way inspire some new way of thinking, I I like that. The book's very personal. It gets into my own experiences, which as a kid were rough.
Susan Demeter:Like, nobody really wants that as a kid. You know? You don't wanna be seeing these strange little beings and not knowing what they are and knowing that they're not they're not normal. Like, even as a kid, you know, like, you know, I can't tell people. I can't go to school and say, oh, I saw this because they're gonna laugh at me and get beaten up in those days.
AP Strange:Yeah. I mean, for my when I had my own childhood experiences, I feel like I learned pretty quickly that I could only share it with people that I really trusted. You know? It wasn't something I was telling everybody. And, I like how you frame it, though, in the book as a sort of initiation.
AP Strange:So, the, you know, the having the weird experience itself being an experience or is kind of an initiation whether you whether you think of it that way or not. Right?
Susan Demeter:Yeah. At least it's initiating you into the idea that, reality is not exactly as we live it in our day to day lives. It's much more richer, and, there's a lot more going on around us than we are normally aware. So it and it gives you that that sort of, you know, that that knowledge, and that knowledge can be frightening and very disruptive. So Yeah.
Susan Demeter:And then in many ways, and that's how initiations are described as being painful. Even, like, going back to the Freemasons, the you know, they use the sword in that in in a in a way to remind of the pain. Right? Like, I think so it it's it's it is an initiation, particularly if it's something that's happening on a on a regular basis and not just, you know, a one off. I I've investigated UFOs as well, And sometimes people just have one experience, and then that's it through their life.
Susan Demeter:But then there are others that seem to have had numerous things or when I would speak to people about their UFO experiences. And once they meet me and become comfortable with me, tell me that, yeah, you know, I had this really strange experience I can't explain. But, you know, when I was growing up, my aunt's house was haunted, and we all knew it was haunted because we had these strange experiences there. So for some people, it's like a lifelong thing. And, and and that can be very frightening, you know, and and, yeah, causing a lot of pain and and whatnot until you can kinda suss it out as to how you're gonna live with these experiences.
AP Strange:Yeah. And classically in ufology, I feel like, if you are a more materialist like NYCAP was back in the day or, Buford tends to be, they find it problematic when there are what they used to call repeaters. You know, like, a one off case was more believable than somebody that had repeatedly seen UFOs, And that's not even taking into account other paranormal phenomena. You know? And I I feel like that that that's something that, for the longest time, made people less credible if they had a variety of paranormal experiences.
Susan Demeter:Exactly. Exactly. And it's weird how they like, I I did a chapter in, Jack Hunter's book, Deep Weird. And I I touched upon a case from France where initially and I think it was he was a doctor, if I remember if I'm remembering correctly, that, it was a doctor and he had had this experience and and he had gone on and has gone into the French media and whatnot, and he seemed like a very credible, respected witness who had this, sighting. But then, like, a couple years later, he went on to have other sightings.
Susan Demeter:And with those sightings, everything was kind of downplayed. It wasn't in the media anymore, and it seemed as if he had lost credibility simply because he was having more than one experience. So
AP Strange:Yeah.
Susan Demeter:The idea of the of the book Deep Weird is kind of exploring, like, people's, their boggle factor, so to speak. So Mhmm. You can have this strange experience and once, okay, but 2, 3 to oh, no. Now that's too much. I can't accept that.
Susan Demeter:And this is, unfortunately, what people who have these repeat experiences face. Like, you know, one encounter, okay. But several, oh, you're making it up or you're crazy or whatever. Right? So
AP Strange:Yeah. I mean, it does make sense because, I mean, for for the average person that doesn't consider these things all the time. You know? Mhmm. The less crazy people out there.
AP Strange:But, you know, people maybe, like, only consider it in terms of fiction or, you know you know, they never had their own personal experiences. Although, I don't think those people really exist. I think everybody has weird experiences, and it's just whether you choose to recognize it or not. You know?
Susan Demeter:Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure. I I I think so. And, you know, like, I I remember getting into some sort of philosophical debates with psychics, you know, early on when I was I was starting out investigating all these things and the with the idea of, you know, children are closer to the veil, so therefore, they'll experience more things.
Susan Demeter:And I used to say, I don't believe so. I think what's happening here is children are more they're more easily to vocalize, you know. Like, if they see something strange happen. Right? Like, say, for instance, all of a sudden, one of these stuffed animals behind my desk here comes floating along.
Susan Demeter:I know you the audience can't see it, but I'm holding this cute little, Halloween kitty. Am I making her
AP Strange:Yeah.
Susan Demeter:The screen here. Okay. So a child will say, oh, look. There's a cat floating by that woman's head. But an adult will just, you know, the did I just see that?
Susan Demeter:You know?
Groucho:And these
Susan Demeter:things, these paranormal things, they tend to be very subtle and happen very quickly. So an adult will start to rationalize it, where a child will vocalize it and they won't learn to rationalize it until they're told to, until they're like, oh, no. You couldn't have seen that. That's impossible. You know?
Susan Demeter:When when when children start being talked to in those terms, that's when they're discounting these things. So I would get into these, and I could be completely wrong. Maybe they are closer to the veil. I don't know. But I do the children are more likely to vocalize weird stuff, you know, like, hey, what's that?
Susan Demeter:But an adult who might be like, am I really seeing this? Is this something else? You know?
AP Strange:Well, when you think about it too, I think from what I understand of of developmental psychology is that by a certain age, you've you've pretty much wired yourself for what what your reality is. I mean, when you're very small, when when like, when I had my experience as a really young kid, it's a couple, you know, amorphous, areas of light that entered the room and started talking to me. I hadn't formed an opinion of what was possible in the world yet. I mean, every day as a little kid, you're learning new things. You don't know how the world works.
AP Strange:Right? So when you encounter something really strange like that, you might not even register it as strange. Just like, oh, there's here's a thing that's happening. Exactly. Exactly.
AP Strange:Why don't I just go talk to these balls of light? You know? Like, let's see what they're all about. You know? It's, yeah.
AP Strange:And I I mean, I I think people maybe need to think about or, I mean, if you have children too, I mean, you're you're, you you see you see how children learn and grow, and and it it makes a lot more sense. Yeah. Yeah. So so when my son was small, it was it kind it kind of allows you to to relive that in a way, you know, seeing them learn. So
Susan Demeter:Did did your son also have these experiences? Do you mind if I ask?
AP Strange:Not that I know of. I mean, he, he never really told me anything like that. But I don't know. Now he's a teenager, so he doesn't talk to me anyway.
Susan Demeter:Yeah. It's that it's that
AP Strange:age. Right?
Groucho:Yes. It's
Susan Demeter:that age. Yeah. I have 3 girls and 2 of them have had strange encounters of their own. So
AP Strange:Yeah.
Susan Demeter:Yeah.
AP Strange:Yeah. And I mean, that's a strange thing too is when it's generational like that. You see that a lot in in the in the case histories of, experiences where, like, their one of their parents had an encounter or, their children continue to. So I don't really know what that's all about, if there's a genetic propensity for that. But
Susan Demeter:Mhmm. Yeah. I gotta I have to wonder that too because so my father, he was a scientist and an engineer, but he had a UFO encounter on the Gulf of Mexico, when he was doing some fishing there. And I had no clue about that until, I had my first UFO encounter as an adult. And I talked to my dad, and I said, you know what?
Susan Demeter:I think I saw a UFO. And he and he said, I believe you. And and he said, you know, I I gotta tell you something. I saw one of these things, and it was in the Gulf of Mexico. And I was blown away because I had never heard this story from him before, where my mother was very open about experiences she had, not necessarily UFO ish, but with ghosts, with a little being, a pan like being, when she was very small, still living in Europe at the time and in a rural location.
Susan Demeter:She had, like, a little fawn person, a little man with with butts that you described to me like pan. I'm so like, I both of them have had strange things, and then my grandparents had had their own stories in that. So I have to wonder if it does. There's something about certain, you know, families or or family makeup or whatever that allows people to have these experiences more readily. I I don't know.
Susan Demeter:So but,
AP Strange:Yeah. It's an interesting question. I mean, like, I know my brothers had plenty, and well, I mean, the house we grew up in was more or less just kinda haunted. And there's a lot of, poltergeist activity going on. But my brother approaches it totally differently when he's had really scary encounters.
AP Strange:Like, I might hear the story from him, but then if I ask him about it again later, he's like, no. I never wanna talk about that because he thinks it's just going to encourage it, which I I he might not be wrong. You know? But he just he doesn't want it to come back. Yeah.
AP Strange:Nope. That's buried. That's buried in my memory bank. It's not coming out. You know?
AP Strange:So he does kind of the opposite of what I do where I'm always poking
Groucho:at it. You know? So
Susan Demeter:Yeah. Well, that that's one of the things that you have to like, you know and and I've cautioned people before as as an investigator and researcher, people that do wanna go these deep dives. You know? If you do, you know, if you start like, for instance, you're in a haunted house and then you decide you're gonna bring in a Ouija board or you're going to try to make a communication or use EMF detectors or bring in a ghost hunting team or whatever, This can actually amplify it. So you have to and that's that's as long as you're prepared to live with that, then that's okay.
Susan Demeter:You know? I can
AP Strange:Sorry, man.
Susan Demeter:Voice, but you should be aware that you can you can amplify it. And and, and then you're living, you know, with even more crazy stuff happening. So
AP Strange:Yeah. No. And it's certainly something to be aware of, or you could just kinda generate it whole cloth out of nothing.
Groucho:You know?
AP Strange:I think I heard you on a a show at one point talking about the Philip
Groucho:experiment. Yeah. Yeah. I I
AP Strange:know that's kind of a favorite of yours. Right?
Susan Demeter:Oh, it's a favorite of mine. Yeah. Because I also got to meet some of the participants, and and I met the, their scientific director, Joel Wheaton. Wow. And and so because I wanted to replicate it, and I I did do some experiments, not in the same sense, so I did them online.
Susan Demeter:That'll be part of a secondary book that I'm writing, which is more of a magical cookbook, so to speak, of of things that I've done to provoke the UFOs, or coax them out, so to speak. And and part of that was inspired by ARG Owen. So, for any listeners that may not be familiar with it, it was a group of people in Toronto under the auspices of the Toronto Society For Psychical Research that decided they wanted to test the idea if they could create a ghost out of a fictional story. Now they got a group of people together. They were very diverse, but part of the screening process, which I found very interesting, it's relating to what we were talking about earlier about playfulness, is that the, people were given a task to pick out a children's book, something that, you know, resonated with them, a favorite childhood book, pick a character, and act that character out.
Susan Demeter:And what they were looking for are people who are creative and playful. So now they did they did screen them for psych psychological problems or anything like that to make sure that they were psychologically in a good place, which you really should be. This is why grounding is so important. If you get involved in doing, a culture rituals or or that, you should really try to make sure you're in a in a good head space or take a break from it. And same with paranormal stuff.
Susan Demeter:And, and anyway so the these people got together and they created a fictional story that sounded believable enough, but they purposefully included historical details that were inaccurate. Okay? In trying to ensure that they could not be conjuring up a real historical figure,
AP Strange:and
Susan Demeter:they came up with Philip, And he had a whole backstory. He had this love affair and this all this kind of stuff, this bad marriage and blah blah blah, and he was set in a certain time. And at first, nothing happened. Okay?
AP Strange:Yeah.
Susan Demeter:But as they went forward, they decided that instead of just sitting in a room and talking this out, they were gonna get, like, a round, old Victorian style table and put together an actual seance like surrounding. And then they started to get psychic, phenomena such as the the table was levitating. They were getting, like, wraps, like knocks, like poltergeist stuff, to answer their questions. They were questioning Philip. This stuff went, it it went so well that they actually moved the table to Ohio State University where physicists were studying these rats.
Susan Demeter:They went on television. All all this all this stuff happened that came out of it, and then they wrote this wonderful book, Conjuring Up Philip. Now they according to their their director, Joel Wheaton, they had wanted to conjure an apparition, and that didn't happen for them. And, and but they they were very happy that they had these psychokinetic, or, you know, this physical phenomena that that happened with the wraps and the levitations and things like that. And then once they got that formula down, after Philip after that experiment ended, they were doing fun things.
Susan Demeter:Like, they they conjured Santa Claus on Christmas. So they they they're conjuring Father Christmas. Other groups, they had success with right away, and and part of it, they realized, was the surrounding. It was just it was being in that kind of environment and when, of course, people became comfortable with each other, like, when they were starting to joke and laugh and do things. And I found the same thing as well, like, when I was ghost hunting.
Susan Demeter:It was always, like, at the end of the night when, you know, we're having our Tim Hortons coffee and our doughnuts and joking around. And that's when something happens, and that's when the equipment's all packed away.
AP Strange:Right. Naturally.
Susan Demeter:So yeah. So Philip Philip, really inspired me to want to try and replicate it. Now initially, I wanted to do it by conjuring an alien, but I thought to do that in a group setting is kinda hard to do. Because, like, with a ghost, even a fictional ghost, it's a human being. Okay?
Susan Demeter:I'll bite a dead one, but it's a human being. Now an alien is inhuman, so people's psychological reaction to something inhuman is going to be different. And the fact is is even if, like I tried to think of ways to kinda control the the narrative, like, say, okay. Maybe maybe the alien has crashed on earth and needs our help giving us the power over the alien. Does if that make sense to you?
AP Strange:Right.
Susan Demeter:Yeah. So the alien is coming to us in a humble I need something from you, and this is why I'm here. But no matter how I tried to work out a scenario of doing that, I thought the f like, ethically, you know, even if people didn't believe or or you know, I didn't want the the thought of maybe an alien, you know, coming into someone's bedroom window in the middle of the night kind of thing. Because there's there's a lot of scariness around, you know, like, communion and things. And this is in the pop culture, and this is in people's minds.
Susan Demeter:So I don't wanna be responsible for harming anybody if I'm bringing them in to do an experiment with me. So instead, my experiments were more surrounding doing, creating UFOs and having, hopefully, having other people in other locations witness them. So we did have success a couple of times, and, and and that's gonna be part of the the future book that's gonna be coming out describing that, how it was done, if anyone else wants to try and do it. But it you can do that. Like, you know, it it can be it can be done.
Susan Demeter:It can be accomplished. So
AP Strange:Yeah. I mean, that's that's pretty wild stuff. I definitely look
Susan Demeter:forward to wild. It is wild.
AP Strange:Look forward to reading about it. Yeah. And but I do wonder sometimes about Philip. Like, what happened to him after? Like, the poor guy was just kind of invented and came into being and then people just knocked back
Groucho:to him.
Susan Demeter:Okay. So the Olin's the what the Olin's felt is that they proved their point, that this was a fictional character, that all of these these ghosts and and whether it's poltergeist phenomena or that is emanating from us and from our mind.
AP Strange:Yeah.
Susan Demeter:However okay. There is no way of knowing even if, say for instance, it's a fictional story that they're creating a persona. How do they know that some other spirit, human or inhuman, didn't grab on to that narrative and just played along with them? Okay? You can't you know, you'd if if you're accepting of that, and I am, from my you know, it's it's, of course, it's my own personal noses based in my experience, but I believe that there are all sorts of spirits out there.
AP Strange:Yeah.
Susan Demeter:How would you know? You you really wouldn't, you know.
AP Strange:Yeah. So again that hasn't really talked to anybody ever and is just like, well, I guess I'm Philip now. I'll play along. You know?
Susan Demeter:Yeah. And, I mean, if it was created as an egregore, so just even just a a type of tulpa like thing, I mean, eventually, you would hope that they would be able to send it on its way. But, again, maybe not. And that's what I had to consider with creating, like, a gray alien or any type of alien encounter in that with that methodology. Well, what if I what if I'm I'm now unable to at least for other people, you know, if that makes sense.
Susan Demeter:And I don't wanna have somebody's child terrified because they took part in an experiment and then, you know, months later, the alien is popping up and, you know, peeking in their windows or whatever. No.
AP Strange:So one way around that maybe is if you, tried to conjure, like, Alf
Groucho:Mhmm.
AP Strange:Or, like, Mork from Mork and Mindy.
Groucho:You know? Just like
AP Strange:so I've been really silly. You know?
Susan Demeter:Yes. Yes. Exactly. You could you could try to do that, do it that way, and that would be fine. You
AP Strange:know? Right.
Groucho:I
Susan Demeter:was just thinking along the lines of that standard grade. We need to see if it could be done. But I can't think of doing it in a way with a group of other people that would make my own personal self feel comfortable that I'm being a 100% ethical with people even if they're consenting to do something. I don't wanna be bringing harm onto others.
AP Strange:No. That's really important because yeah. I mean, there certainly has been a lot of harm done in the name of investigating specifically UFOs, but a lot of other things too. I mean, ghost hunting and, the, obsession with demons, at least in the, pop culture kind of reality TV sense.
Susan Demeter:For sure.
AP Strange:And, you know, that can be very harmful when you have a family that's dealing with mental health and addiction issues and you come and tell them it's demons. It's like you can really, really harm people that way. You know?
Susan Demeter:Oh, yeah. Yeah. A 100%. You know? Like, it's, there I I think there's, yeah, there's a lot of ethics that are are are questionable practices within the ghost hunting community and the UFO communities for sure.
Susan Demeter:So you you have to be careful around these things. And, yeah, the overuse of the idea of demons, which do exist. But, again, I, I would caution that they don't necessarily exist as as in the, you know, pop culture or, you know, the Abrahamic religions viewpoints of them. But at the same point, if you think you're dealing with something that's so evil that you have to command it and this, you know, then it's probably better you're not dealing with these things. Like, why?
AP Strange:Right. I mean, there's
Susan Demeter:No one wants to live a horror movie, or if they do, that's that's awful. Like, no.
AP Strange:No. I I agree with you entire I think that's probably one of the things I wanna was thinking about when I got into the whole Bewitched thing earlier is, when you think about magic well, no. Now I have a lot of thoughts going on, but I'm gonna try to try to get through all the points. But, yeah, as you say, if you're thinking about magic like Tiphonian, OTO stuff with Kenneth Grant and whatnot and working like HP Lovecraft into Crowley's magic
Susan Demeter:Yeah.
AP Strange:And, you know, people can say, well, like, Lovecraft is fiction, and he didn't even believe in this stuff. You know? So so, like, that's gotta be all hokum. You know? But, like, no.
AP Strange:I mean, anything you put in it can come out of it. Now and I have to wonder, why on earth you would pick Cthulhu? Well, I mean, I'm I'm living in a country where we reelected Trump, so I guess that's but if you can pick a pop culture archetype, why Cthulhu? Why, like, elder gods that are out to, like, warp your mind and and, cause you to kill people and go in other dimensions and what are like, to to me, like, why not why not Bugs Bunny? You know?
AP Strange:Like, why not?
Susan Demeter:Uncle Arthur or something from BW.
AP Strange:Uncle Arthur.
Susan Demeter:Yeah. Like, he's great. Pauline, come on. But, I I I my view and, of course, like, I I don't judge people. You know, you do what you wanna do.
Susan Demeter:But, I mean, it's the same kinda idea with people that kinda vibe towards a sort of vampirism as well. Like, I don't put people down. Like, if you you wanna do that, that's fine. But if you're gonna be conjuring, you know, Dracula because you think you're gonna which is also a fictional character, but still you're conjuring, and you think this is somehow gonna give your soul a mortal life or something. You gotta be really careful because there's a lot of negative and nasty things that are already out there.
Susan Demeter:And I think that if a person is maybe drawn to that form of magic, okay, like, I'm going to, you know, call up 4th Cthulhu from the depths or whatever, I think if you are not in a psychologically good place or if you are, you know, in feeling powerless maybe and this is giving you a sense of power, maybe you need to step back
AP Strange:Yeah.
Susan Demeter:And and think a bit about why you're drawn to certain things. And like I said, I love horror movies. I actually, you know, really appreciate HP Lovecraft. Yeah. I used to have on on on my Facebook profile, you know, Cult Studies Miskatonic University as my education.
Susan Demeter:But I thought I might attract certain people that I I might not want to. People get the wrong idea about me or whatever. I I shouldn't really care, but I do too. Right? But, yeah, it's like, I I don't wanna live a horror movie.
Susan Demeter:And if you put out there that this is this is what you're conjuring, it's like using a Ouija board. Ouija board, I can use. It's not gonna bother me now. But maybe as a teenager, when I thought I could be, you know, conjuring what who knows what that I couldn't, you know, cope with
AP Strange:Mhmm.
Susan Demeter:Where I had that fear, then it's it's I could I could create something really horrible for myself.
Groucho:And
Susan Demeter:why would anyone want that? You know? That's why I also I I I talk about Ouija boards as well. Like, sure. It's a game.
Susan Demeter:You know, Parker Brothers sells it. But at the same point, if you're putting your beliefs into it and you believe what is put out in the horror films that this is a gateway to hell and blah blah blah blah blah, you might conjure that for yourself. And Yeah. Who needs that?
Groucho:You know?
Susan Demeter:You're not I I no. No.
AP Strange:Well, Ouija boards to me are are kind of a, a funny thing because they get dismissed out of hand because people just say, oh, psychomotor effect. So mystery solved. All psychomotor effect. And then you're like, okay. But suppose that it is the psychomotor effect moving the planchette on the board, and you come up with information that you should not have known.
AP Strange:How do you explain that? That's not explained away by the psychomotor effects. You know? What if, poltergeist activity happens in the room that you're in while you're using a Ouija board. And that's what happened to me k.
AP Strange:One time I ever really did it. You know? Yeah. I had just had had immediate poltergeist activity in the room. So Mhmm.
AP Strange:That's always one of those I I I think with every every kind of paranormal event, phenomena, tool, story, there's so many layers to it. And and I think people have a tendency to oversimplify, which is, which is problematic. But, it's always so interesting to think about it. It's like because there is a push and pull. There is, like, a feedback loop where, there's perfectly rational things going on.
AP Strange:There's very silly things going on, and there's downright spooky things going on. You know? Mhmm. I mean, there there there has to be the right mixture, the right cocktail to make to make a really profound paranormal experience, I think.
Susan Demeter:Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And and and it does. And and people do should keep that in mind when they're doing these things, for sure.
Susan Demeter:You know?
AP Strange:Yeah. Right. I I think being lighthearted about it is is a big part of it. I feel like that's probably something I've said so many times that maybe people are sick of hearing it, but I think it's important.
Susan Demeter:It is very important. Of course, it is. It it should be the way we are in general, just having to negotiate the the never mind consensus reality, which is, like, the horror show lately. Like, we have to
AP Strange:Right.
Susan Demeter:You know, I mean, we can take the things we're doing seriously, but not ourselves, I think, is is is is good. Like, you know
Groucho:Yeah. Yeah.
Susan Demeter:Yeah. Yeah.
AP Strange:Because, I mean, there are serious concerns. So, like, lightheartedness and playfulness begets kindness, and kindness is super important. Yeah. And I I really appreciate that you take such, measures to be ethical with the investigation as you were explaining earlier, with an experiment like the one that you were talking about, conjuring an alien and stuff. Because one of one of the things I I think of paranormal and UFO studies as being a double edged sword because you don't need qualifications to get into it.
AP Strange:Right? There's no barrier to entry, which is kinda good. But on the other hand, that means there's no protocols and there's no codes of ethics. So, that's bad.
Susan Demeter:Yeah. Well, common sense and kindness and and empathy for other people should be what's leading. But even in the way that, like, I've never really liked the ghost hunting TV shows because a lot of them, you have people screaming at supposedly, you know, deceased and these are deceased people. And even if they were nasty and mindful, they were somebody's baby at some point. Somebody might have loved them.
Susan Demeter:I mean, they're human. Is this how you would wanna be treated? Talk to me.
Groucho:You know? Like Right.
Susan Demeter:Yeah. Do something. Or you're screaming. In other words, screaming at demons or whatever. It's like, if I was a demon and I'm like, what?
AP Strange:Yeah.
Susan Demeter:Yeah. Yeah. Okay. There has to be a point of being ethical and understanding, you know, and I think that that sometimes can get lost in the idea of being spooky entertainment.
Groucho:Yeah. Right.
Susan Demeter:You know, a ghost is a a former alive person.
AP Strange:Mhmm.
Susan Demeter:You would wanna treat you know, how would you wanna be treated if you were in that situation? You know? As a point of entertainment or, you know, approach these things with compassion. It's like with the whole demon thing. And I I was having this conversation with my friend, Greg Bishop, is that, you know, when it comes to the the the high ceremonial magic and commanding demons and so, it's never really felt good to me personally.
Susan Demeter:I it's like, you know, if I wanted to commune with the demon, I might say, hey, you know, demon, do you wanna share a cup of tea with me and we'll have a chat? As opposed to trying to command and bind and the because, of course, they're gonna be nasty and angry and not because they've been oppressed and bound anyway. Like, so why do you wanna further make them suffer? Yeah. Like, if you treat them as you would another soul or spirit maybe I'm being naive here.
Susan Demeter:I don't know. But I'm just saying, if I wanted to talk to a demon, I'd be like, hey, demon. Do you wanna have some brownies with me and tea, and we'll chat on the mountain top over here? Like, I'm not gonna bind you. You can come or you can go.
Susan Demeter:I don't care.
AP Strange:Right. Well, I have casually said before. I'm casually naive.
Susan Demeter:I don't know. Maybe I'm
AP Strange:Yeah. I I have casually said on podcast before, like, you know, I think demons get a bad rap and people are like, what? And I I forget who I'm talking to sometimes because not everybody's you know? But I I mean, I I'll just say it. I love demons.
AP Strange:Like, I I love reading about them because there's so much and, like, I have I have a copy of the dictionary in for now in the other room, the Jay Colin Duplantis one. And it's in the original French, which takes me forever to read because
Groucho:Mhmm. I I
AP Strange:know a little French, so, like, I I can kinda piece it together through context clues and learn words as I go. But, but, I mean, the the the drawings I mean, one of my earliest books on weird stuff was, it was just called monsters by Pearl Epstein, and they had a picture of a of a demon on the front. He's the unicorn headed guy. Crap. Forgetting his name now.
AP Strange:But, but I was I was, I was, like, amazed with that as a kid. And so I feel like ever since I was little, I had this kind of, like, affinity for for, demons. And I think there's just a whole range of them, you know, that Oh,
Susan Demeter:there's, yeah, there's a bunch of them, and I think some of them are are worse than others. Some of them are real sweethearts. I'm sure.
AP Strange:Yeah. I mean, I think they could
Susan Demeter:not saying that sarcastically either.
AP Strange:No. I know. I know. Because, I think they could be more accurately be called infernal spirits and
Susan Demeter:Yeah.
AP Strange:You know, and there's a whole range of those. And it's really interesting to see how, in a collection like like, Duplantis, how, you know, it really is a dictionary. He's he's including all kinds of things. But how gods in some places became demons. And and they sometimes it goes back and forth.
AP Strange:So you can see how, you you know, that it's a it's a matter of who's looking at it when. You know?
Susan Demeter:Exactly. It's like some of these old pagan gods that that school of thought that they they're actually were made into demons by the early religion or the early Christian religions or Abrahamic religions to kind of, you know, take away their power and bind them and say, okay. These are the these evil fallen angels. So, yeah, I I I hear where you're coming from. And I would think that, like, you know, if you wanted to work with them, you just have to keep that in mind to be respectful.
Susan Demeter:But at the same point, I wouldn't if you really buy into the Exorcist film and movies like that. Like, because because you're gonna because that's gonna it's almost like that cocreative process as well. Right? Like
AP Strange:Right.
Susan Demeter:If you're gonna but, I mean, I think they're interesting too. I think they're they're more interesting in some ways than the than their angelic counterparts.
AP Strange:Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, I don't know that I necessarily wanna talk about it yet. But, but I I mean, there have been times where I'm looking into stuff, and it does almost seem like there's, one of one of the demons is trying to tell me stuff and trying to lead me a certain way. And I'll just be like, okay.
AP Strange:Well, this seems like an ancient entity that is maybe above my pay grade, so I'm gonna put this aside for now. Yeah. For sure. You know, when you feel a little bit of fear and trepidation like that, maybe that's the best thing to do is to just kinda back away, you know, and give it some time to make sure
Susan Demeter:I would give it some time and and but, I mean, I think when it comes to a being like that, there should always be and you always have that a little bit of trepidation. Like, I would be shocked if you didn't.
Groucho:Right.
Susan Demeter:But, you know, because they're they're they're a different type. They're even different than the nature spirits, which is is is where I'm kind of at, especially lately, I've been really drawn to certain plants, and those spirits. But but when it comes to, like, the demons in that, I think it's wise to always feel a little bit, you know, like, you're you're dealing with something that is is is far more ancient and and is not, you know, human. Therefore, we can't really guess intentions and agendas and things like that. So you should always approach with
AP Strange:Yeah. Especially the ones that have, attributed to them, a lack of trustworthiness. Like, there are certain ones that are like, the this one always lies to you. Like Yes. So it's gonna try to trick you.
AP Strange:So they're not all that way, but, you know
Susan Demeter:No. No. Of course not. But you should do what what feels what feels best for yourself and, like, only if you you really want to. Like, I, you know, I I I will meet these on the other on the other plane, but in in in more of a sleep or meditative state.
Susan Demeter:And, and and if I start to go into it, I I have ways that work for me that I can just sort of end that. Like
AP Strange:Yeah.
Susan Demeter:But Well,
AP Strange:that yeah. That's important. Like, I think of it as, like, establishing boundaries like you would with a human being. And that's
Susan Demeter:why We always have agency and and with these beings as well. So we it's good to remember that. So yeah. And then and when you're meeting these things, it's the same as when you're meeting humans. I mean, sometimes people seem really nice and cool and then you find out, oh my god.
Susan Demeter:That person's, like, can't trust them. But and it's the same in the spirit realm. Right?
AP Strange:Yeah. I think so. Yeah. I think that's a much healthier way to look at it. And as you alluded to, there is a danger in anthropomorphizing, you know, projecting human motivations and intellect and, emotion onto non corporeal entities because they may not think like us at all, you know, or perceive things like us at all.
AP Strange:So
Susan Demeter:Exactly. Yeah. Right? I mean, it it it's it's the same with anything within the spirit realm. Or even if, like, say, we we wanna contemplate the existence of actual aliens from other planets and other worlds, it doesn't even if they look like us, which is possible, I I buy into the ideas of Rupert Sheldrake that, nature re patterns itself.
AP Strange:Yeah.
Susan Demeter:We have the same building blocks throughout the cosmos. So why wouldn't things develop a certain way that would be similar? But even if it's similar, we have no idea if the civilization developed similarly or
AP Strange:Right.
Susan Demeter:You know, if and so you can't really say what an alien is thinking or what their agenda would be or what their agenda would be with us. You wouldn't you wouldn't know because they're alien. Right? Like, they're they're not, you know, they're not even of nature. They're not even here where we can you know?
Susan Demeter:Right. We're just starting to understand, like, you know, nonhuman intelligence on this planet. We're just scratching that surface through, you know, the majority of us. Right? So
AP Strange:Yeah. I mean, I live with a couple nonhuman intelligences in my house. And, like, my cat, I have no idea what her identity is most
Groucho:of the time. Yeah. I
AP Strange:don't know what she's looking.
Groucho:So, but And that's
AP Strange:a helpful way to think of it, I think. Just think about your pets. Like, you may have some kind of relationship and communication with your with a pet, but still you don't really understand how they perceive things. And we like to anthropomorphize them as well. You know, attribute human qualities to, like, a cat or a dog.
AP Strange:Mhmm. That may be illusory. It just might be a way that we form a bond with them. But, but, yeah, it's helpful to think of just animal and plant life on this planet
Groucho:Mhmm.
AP Strange:When you're when you're thinking of of other nonhuman intelligences. You know? Exactly. Instead of just treating it as a one to one equation, they're gonna be like us because they're intelligent. You know?
AP Strange:Yeah.
Susan Demeter:Yeah. They're they're they're coming to this planet, and they're they're sending their probes, and they're gonna be doing this and that just like we would do. Right? Because they're exactly like us. You know, only a few steps ahead
AP Strange:in technology. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, that's where I take issue with well, I don't I don't really take issue with it. That's that's where I diverge an opinion from from a lot of scientific thinkers.
AP Strange:You know? Like, kinda like the way Avi Loeb talks about sending probes and stuff like that.
Susan Demeter:Yeah.
AP Strange:It because it is it is a little bit anthropomorphic. It is kind of a little bit, like, well, this is probably what we would do if we were sending out or trying to explore something. You know?
Susan Demeter:Yeah.
AP Strange:It makes sense. I mean, it's solid. It it I think it's a solid point, but at the on the other hand, it's like, well, they might think completely differently. I don't know.
Susan Demeter:So Well and that's the thing. And I find, like, with a lot of the people that are, you know, coming into this topic post 2017, they really haven't studied the literature. Yeah. They're not really that all that familiar with the topic. They don't understand, like, the paranormal aspects that seem to be interwoven with all of these, you know, these experiences with UFOs the way, like, say, Alan Hynek was, you know, which is why we love the Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind movie because, which I I I did a large part of, my, reframing the debate, the the book with that Robbie Graham had edited back in the day, was based in that film because what impressed me is how so much of the paranormal, like, the the telepathy, the poltergeist activity, the synchronicities, all these things were interwoven in the film because of Allan Hynek, because he took the time to listen to the, you know, the the witnesses.
Susan Demeter:And he started realizing, no. Wait a second. There's a lot more going on here. And I believe at the end of his life, he did believe that this was a paranormal thing where the paranormal was part of it, where a lot of people like Abby Loeb, they're coming into this and they're only thinking, oh, these pilots saw these objects, and, obviously, they must be probes because, you know, we send out probes. And and maybe that's true, but I would be really shocked if that is the simple truth of it all.
AP Strange:Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Susan Demeter:Don't think so.
AP Strange:Right. Well, I mean and Hynek, you know, he's the one that coined the the term highest strangeness.
Groucho:You know? So Mhmm.
AP Strange:Yeah. There's a lot to be said for Hynek. He he was really groundbreaking in a lot of ways. But I think also, I read that he was is he a Rosicrucian or something like that? Like, he was part of some
Susan Demeter:Yeah. Some secret society. And ballet were were were Rosicrucians at one point. So I think that they did, and I know that there are pictures of them with Anton LaVey back in the day. So they were exploring the occult, occult knowledge about UFOs
AP Strange:Yeah.
Susan Demeter:At some Yeah. Yeah.
AP Strange:And it's and so, I mean, that's really cool too that he was open to that, going that far with it. You know? So, so we're kinda at an hour or so now. We can wind down a little bit, but I did wanna mention at least or talk about your your new website, newish or refurbished website It's, paranormal studies and intuition website. Yes.
AP Strange:That's really cool.
Susan Demeter:Oh, thank you. Yeah. I I I restarted it up. I used to have a website, Para Researchers of Ontario. And, unfortunately, I let the domain and and and the site get away from me, a few years back, and it it recently, you know, went offline.
Susan Demeter:And so I thought, well, you know, instead of trying to recreate the the original website, which I I first put together, I think, in 99, 97, something like that. Yep. That's how yeah. What time in the early early days on the Internet? I think the first incarnation was GeoCities for those that remember GeoCities.
Susan Demeter:But, so I've recreated, it in part, and I'm putting up some of my older case files and stuff that I'm doing currently as well because I still like to go out and ghost hunt. I still like to go out and look for UFOs and you know? We don't really have much in the way of Sasquatches here in Europe, but I'm trying to coax him here. But that's another story. That's another another day because that'd be yeah.
AP Strange:Well, maybe maybe you can go find an alpine totsle worm.
Susan Demeter:I might. Who knows? But I'm also kind I also visit Canada often as well. So, yeah. So I'm interested in all this fun stuff.
Susan Demeter:So there's gonna be new stuff and some of my old stuff that is, being revamped. I as well, I did a a a spook light investigation in Ontario many years ago. It's I I actually, it's being published in a peer reviewed journal, so I'm really excited about that. But I may take parts of that and put it on the website as well. So, yeah.
Susan Demeter:Yeah. You know, I I just I I hope to create a space where people see that, you know Yeah. There's other other strange strange folk out there as well that take this stuff seriously. But at the same time, maybe not ourselves as serious.
AP Strange:Right. Yeah. Well, it looks like you were able to do a little bit of both ghost hunting and UFO hunting in Norway recently. I
Groucho:don't really know that.
AP Strange:But, like, Norwegian Lights, I don't have the name of it right in front of me, but it was some that's something that's always fascinated me.
Susan Demeter:Oh, the Hasdalen Lights? Yeah.
AP Strange:It was Hasdalen. Yeah.
Susan Demeter:Yeah. It was wild because when we were there now, normally, I have done things before with media in the past, and, usually, nothing paranormal is gonna happen when you have film crews around and whatnot. But in this case, we did we did have a brief sighting of the actual, Hastellan lights. My husband has been observing them. He's been involved in that for a good 30 years now.
Susan Demeter:His interest is in these lights.
AP Strange:Right.
Susan Demeter:And, and so we we did that, and we also we went to this cathedral, which is, one of the most haunted cathedrals in in all of Europe. It's very well known at least in Scandinavia, Nidros Cathedral. And I had a a a ghostly encounter there where I felt, like an apparition had walked directly through me.
AP Strange:Yeah. That's
Susan Demeter:So that's all on the website. Yeah. And I include other people's experiences as well and some pictures. And, and with the Stalin Lights, anyone can really go up there. It's it's above the midpoint of Norway.
Susan Demeter:So, you know, it's quite cold up there, so I'd suggest visit in the summer. If you can do it, it's worthwhile. People do have very strange experiences up there. And the nights, for some reason, are are often seen. Hynek went there in the in the eighties and and investigated because so many of these people living in in rural Norway, which is very picturesque, just setting alone gives you that feeling that there's magical things afoot.
AP Strange:Yeah.
Susan Demeter:And, and and so that and just even just going there for that is just wonderful. But there the people there have had a number of experiences over the years, including seeing, like, these these strange, cryptid like beings and UFOs and and light phenomena and all sorts of strange things happen there.
Groucho:So Yeah. Yeah.
AP Strange:I mean, it's it's a fascinating place, and it was somewhere that I had heard about years ago and then kinda forgot about until I saw you post about it recently. And I was like, oh, man. That's really cool. I didn't realize Massimo had been looking into it for that long. He's
Susan Demeter:Woah. Yeah. Yeah. He he originally because, like, he had, gone to a, like, a market like, a flea market type thing that they they have here, in Modena, Italy. And, he happened to see a book by Jenny Randalls of of all people who was wrote about it in 1 in this book.
Susan Demeter:So he bought this this book for, like, €3 or something like that. And and he and he was reading it and he became really fascinated. And he's like, oh, these people are actually you know, they're doing scientific stuff out there because he's an astrophysicist. Right. So,
AP Strange:but He knows his science.
Susan Demeter:He knows he knows his science, but he's also really open to this weird stuff. Like, he's he's actually the you know? Well, he married me, so he'd have to be.
AP Strange:Oh, right.
Susan Demeter:But, but so he's been going up there for for years, and and and he's very interested in in all these things because she was in the Galileo project in that too. Yeah. But he he's, like, he's also interested in in the consciousness aspect and and other things. But he he he learned about it from a book at Jenny Randalls, and then he wrote to Erling Strand who runs project test, Alan, or did at at that time. And, and that's how they they started a collaboration together trying to figure out what these things are.
Susan Demeter:And he has some interesting pictures as well that he was able to take, images of these plasma lights, and some of them are really fascinating. Like, like, to give you an idea, one of the images he has looks like there is within the plasma ball a rectangle. And at the same time, at a place in Stalin, a rectangle was cut out of the ground, like the shape of a rectangle in the ground, and they didn't know how. Like, this is huge, huge mound of of tundra dirt, which is, like, partially frozen, and it was missing. And they didn't know.
Susan Demeter:So, like, as above, so below in my mind, but also the idea of this rectangle to me suggests the doorway.
AP Strange:So Wow. That's yeah.
Susan Demeter:Bomb. Or a
AP Strange:box or or, like, coffin of some kind. You know what I mean?
Susan Demeter:Yeah. It's
AP Strange:also, like, go away.
Susan Demeter:Yeah. So, I mean but it's like when I was there, I didn't feel any sort of like, parts of it felt a little strange, and some of the people's experiences there were frightening. But to me, it felt like a really peaceful, beautiful place. This is my own impression, and and, whatever there is is actually really kinda joyful and fun. So Yeah.
Susan Demeter:That may be a reflection, I don't know, of
AP Strange:Right. Yeah.
Susan Demeter:How I wanted to be. Yeah.
AP Strange:Partly what you bring with you. Yeah.
Susan Demeter:Yeah. Yeah.
AP Strange:And we don't know what other factors play into it, like the time of year or, like, anniversary dates of things and you know? Who knows? You know?
Susan Demeter:Who knows? Who knows?
Groucho:But
Susan Demeter:people do have these experiences. So but, anyway, we could talk like this for hours and hours and hours. Like We could.
AP Strange:For sure.
Groucho:We could go to the pub
Susan Demeter:and might be there till, like, you know, all all pulling all nighter talking.
AP Strange:Yeah. Yeah. But for the listeners, you can absolutely read about all this stuff too on on Susan's wonderful website, and it is paranormalstudiesintuition.wordpress.com. Yeah. So I I had that much pulled up.
AP Strange:So I have a spinning wheel. I don't know why it won't look.
Susan Demeter:And then I also I also have a blog where I do, like, a a lot of different book reviews and things. And then I have my main witch witchy website, which has got other spooky goodness in there.
AP Strange:Yeah. And you're on TikTok as well? Are you still doing that? Or are you
Susan Demeter:I'm not I'm not doing TikTok so much because, I mean, like, there's just so many hours in a day, and you really gotta be good at cutting the video in that. But I might go back to TikTok, but, I mean, I I do have my socials up there, and people can reach out to me. I'm I'm really open to hearing about people, who you know, other witches for 1 and people who are, like, having these high strange experiences. I'm always interested and open in a very nonjudging way.
AP Strange:Yeah. Because on your other website, you you tend to have, like, experiences that people sent you that you're sharing with permission. Then it's sometimes
Susan Demeter:anonymous. So it's Yeah. I did that for, like, 20 years. Like, I have a huge amount of of of material of people. Sometimes they'll let me use their names most often than not.
Susan Demeter:No. So I I can't. But, yeah. But a lot of the high weirdness.
AP Strange:Yeah. Fascinating stuff. And and your book, Cosmic Witch, is wonderful, and I recommend anybody that hasn't Thank you. Hasn't read that.
Groucho:Lunch. Thank you. And
AP Strange:It has a great cover by Red Pill Junkie, Miguel Romero, yeah, who also did the art for this podcast. So
Susan Demeter:I love it. I love it.
Groucho:I love what he's done
Susan Demeter:for isn't Miguel the best? Love you, Miguel. You're listening.
AP Strange:Okay. Well, this has been wonderful. And like you said, we really could. We could be talking for hours and hours and probably won't ever run out of things to talk about. So I'm glad we've finally had this opportunity to have the electronic face to face conversation.
Susan Demeter:Yeah. Me too. Me too. Let's do it again.
AP Strange:Oh, yeah. We definitely will. Alright. Thank you very much, Susan.
Susan Demeter:Okay. Ciao. Alright.