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A new D&D podcast from a Christian perspective.
speaker-0 (00:00.302)
you
speaker-1 (00:19.948)
Welcome, welcome back to Dungeons and Disciples. My name is Tony Venda.
And my name is Joshua Shaw. Welcome back everybody.
Yes, we are excited to bring you this next episode. And one thing that's very different about this is Josh and I are not in the same room staring at each other.
Dun dun duuuun!
He's not sitting on one couch and I'm not sitting on one couch. Well, I'm sitting on a couch. I don't know what you're sitting on.
speaker-0 (00:50.638)
I'm sitting on a chair. Office chair? Yeah, it's not the most comfortable chair in the world. But you know, it's a chair. I'm blessed to have a chair.
Yeah, so we're trying something new. This is a virtual recording. Doesn't mean it's gonna be any less fun or exciting. We're aiming for quality content. Well, content will be quality if you guys deem it so.
Yeah, it's literally up to you. Not up to us.
The quality of the recording, that'll be interesting to find out on the tail end of this. just cross your fingers. Well, I'm crossing my fingers as we're recording. You don't need to cross your fingers because it's already gonna be done and over with by the time this premieres. So.
As you're, like, in this moment right here, like, yes, we're recording, but right now what you're listening to is what's done.
speaker-1 (01:44.896)
I hear Josh's sweet voice in my ears and I hope he hears the same on the other end. His own sweet voice in his own ears.
sweet voice in that bald head.
Yeah, I'm still keeping my hair next to nothing.
If it makes you feel better, I'm going the opposite way. My wife wants me to grow my hair back. It seems like you're to back. Yep, until I get a manic. I've been slicking back for over three months now.
You're going for the Viking look? I'm digging it.
speaker-0 (02:15.32)
Going for the viking look! Now, do I look like a viking? No, I look like a nerd that plays D &D.
You look like a leprechaun like you fit in our family. I mean you were in our family, but like blood wise
Yeah, how many times I get asked, is that your brother? Like, in Christ. Yes.
You and I look more alike than my brother and I look alike.
Yes, this is true. It is scary. We need to post a picture of us on our Discord. I feel like we haven't done that yet.
speaker-1 (02:48.715)
I don't think we posted pictures on our Discord. We have Of ourselves.
We need to. That is an update for 2026, those who have joined Discord.
Thank you for being there.
Honestly, honestly, we will get better.
Yes, we will. And I'm not entirely sure how to use a Discord or run a Discord, but it's what I've been told is a good thing to have, to commune with each other and talk to people. Listen, if y'all had questions, I'd be on there every day answering questions and talking to people. But there's slow days and there's not so slow days and it's great. But the other day I sent a picture. What were you gonna say?
speaker-0 (03:32.28)
no no, you're good, keep going.
I was gonna say, the other day, maybe yesterday, maybe the day before that, I did send a picture of my recently rearranged D &D book. Well, bookshelf of fantasy things. That was, I reorganized, I'll just say that.
It does and it looks beautiful and they there's still a couple comments on there about asking about the heroes feast book in there and that if you've made anything from the heroes feast book
I have not actually, and I need, this is why I need to go back on Discord and look at our Discord and answer some of these questions.
Folks, as we continue on through our own podcasting experience, we will get better as time goes on. We are not perfect. We also, man, I just feel like 2025 as a whole has been a crazy year. You know, but we're still rocking and rolling. We're still recording and I'm so blessed. I just, I'm blessed, you're blessed. Yes. And we hope y'all are blessed too.
speaker-1 (04:28.59)
Absolutely.
speaker-1 (04:41.579)
I'm blessed.
I'm so blessed. Hallelujah, I'm blessed.
I love it. They're fantastic live by the way.
I know, incredible.
So good. But yeah, to answer your question, I've not made anything from Heroes' Feast. That's gonna be rectified over the holiday break.
speaker-0 (05:02.19)
I have the book too and I haven't made anything, I'm gonna be honest with you.
I just saw it literally on the clearance section at Books-A-Million in our town and I had to grab it. It was like 10 bucks.
Maybe we can both make something and post it and see what happens.
Heroes feast potluck. Jarek has the book too. We gotta have a potluck of Heroes feast things now. Everyone has a potluck. let it be known henceforth, here hitherto from thine special day, Wednesday, December 10th, we will have a Heroes feast potluck.
let's do it.
speaker-0 (05:38.754)
We're not making an oath, are we?
It needs to, I'm just saying in the next three months we will have a Heroes Feast potluck.
okay, I mean, I just read Matthew five a couple of days ago and I'm afraid to make any oaths. I listen, I say at some point I think we can get this organized, but I'm definitely scared to be like, yes, or I promise.
Well, we just got through Thanksgiving and all the Friendsgivings that different people had and all that type of thing. Let me just say, I don't think I went to a single Friendsgiving. And I'm okay with that.
Folks, by the way, if you're still eating leftovers, it's time to throw them away.
speaker-1 (06:18.52)
Yeah, this is what, two weeks after Thanksgiving?
Yeah, it's time that stuffings gotta go that man. She's is bad unless
Unless you froze, there are people that freeze and that's a wonderful thing. And then you pop it back out little by little. That's freezing and then the stuff is fine. But if the leftovers are still in the fridge from initial prep day and cooked.
it's gotta be blue by now. It's blue. It's blue.
That's right. If that turkeys... Yeah, I don't even want to go there. Anywho!
speaker-0 (06:54.615)
That's another debate for another time.
Yes, how long are leftovers good in the fridge?
The real debate that we truly need to settle is the debate that we're going to talk about with our classes tonight.
OOB! We have a surprise in store!
We do, we do. You know, Tony prayed before we started the episode and he was just like, Lord, thank you for the preparation that Josh put into the script. And I kind of felt bad because as a person who preaches the gospel, I hit those times where I can do all the preparing, everything that I possibly can. But then there are those moments where you're like, all right, time to do this. And the Lord says,
speaker-0 (07:42.19)
hold up, that's not what you're doing. And I said, I almost in the car, said, I almost looked at the Lord in prayer and I was like, excuse me? Like I had any authority over it. And he's like, let's do this instead. And I said, all right, you the boss. So that's what we're doing. And I'm excited. Folks, we've been traveling through character classes and discussing those.
Thank you for holding on for the ride for the entire year. I didn't think it would be a whole year of it, but it's been very fruitful conversation. I've learned a lot through character classes and just understanding what they do, the semantics of all the classes. I have, I don't know about y'all, but I have such a great expanded knowledge now in that. one thing that we're doing differently tonight, and you can even see it by the title of, we're going to settle a debate tonight.
Right and it truly comes from the fact that I finally watched the D &D movie When the wizard faced the sorcerer so good, but that's exactly what we're gonna do We're gonna go over not one but two character classes wizard and sorcerer Comparing between the two
Can I say something and get something off my chest real quick? It just so happens that you may have watched the movie, but I fell asleep about halfway through the The look on his face,
Ooh, yes.
speaker-0 (09:25.218)
You're part of the reason why the box office was so low. Are you kidding me?
No, the box office was the... That was the theater. I either rented or found online the movie, or on like a streaming platform. And then I fell asleep. Listen, it was a long day. I was exhausted. I threw this on to like entertain the evening. I was home alone. I think Jamie and Charlie were in New York at the time. And...
repent of your sins.
speaker-1 (09:56.34)
Yeah, I just fell asleep on the couch watching the movie. I don't even know where I left off, to be honest. It may have been like 20 minutes into the movie, to be honest. Less than half the movie. I gotta watch it.
I won't judge because it took me years to watch it out of pure laziness. I'll repent of my sins. Before I take the splinter out of your eye, I'm going to take the log out of my own. I'm going to take the biblical approach. I apologize, but you got to finish them.
At least I attempted.
speaker-1 (10:24.982)
I will, I will. The part that I saw was good.
Good, it's all good, in my opinion. Again, another debate for another time. But let's jump in to Wizard and Sorcerer. It's gonna be a good time. So what we're gonna do tonight is we're gonna compare side by side with each other, but we're gonna do something a little different. So we'll start off by reading the opening introductions to both classes. I'm gonna take Sorcerer and Tony is gonna take Wizard. Wizard.
And we'll start off kind of like going level by level and we'll have a little bit of open discussion in the middle of it and just seeing the comparisons and where we line up. And then right at the end, we'll see if we can settle this debate. If there, no, I'm not saying if, there is a debate.
Yeah. What's really excited about this thing is that I'm actually going be going through the wizard. Like reading through the player's handbook as having played a wizard from the 2014 rule. So this is I actually have not intentionally gone out of my way to read through all the new updates in the 2024 player's handbook. So this is refreshing to me, seeing the new differences in the 14 wizard versus the 24 wizard.
Mmm.
speaker-0 (11:35.454)
so it's gonna.
speaker-1 (11:43.042)
I'm so excited.
speaker-0 (12:12.404)
exposure to the strange magic of another plane of existence, or a glimpse into the inner workings of reality. Whatever the origin, the result is an indelible mark on the sorcerer, a churning magic that can be passed down through generations. Sorcerers don't learn magic. The raw, roiling power of magic is part of them. The essential art of a sorcerer is learning to harness and channel that innate magic.
allowing the sorcerer to discover new and staggering ways to unleash their power. As sorcerers master their innate magic, they grow more attuned to its origin, developing distinct powers that reflect its source. Sorcerers are rare. Some family lines produce exactly one sorcerer in every generation, but most of the time, the talents of sorcery appear as a fluke. People who have had this magical power soon discover that it doesn't like to stay quiet. A sorcerer's magic wants to be wielded.
That's so cool.
Pretty cool. Now, let's figure out what a wizard is.
Okay, let me just rephrase that. Let me just read that last line from A Sorcerer again. A sorcerer's magic wants to be wielded. That is such like a... From a game that has such a story-driven aspect to it, that line right there is such a story-driven line. A sorcerer's magic wants to be wielded. So anyone who's playing A Sorcerer, y'all can have some fun with that.
speaker-0 (13:43.232)
And I think that single sentence alone is a clear definition of how your character should be played in The Sorcerer.
Absolutely, your magic wants to be wielded. imagine, imagine trying to resist the magic. What kind of storyline that can yield. Imagine setting up your world in a, DM, okay, DM's perspective. You set up a world that is very low magic, where magic has been something of the distant past. And all of a sudden you have someone,
Ooh, okay now.
speaker-1 (14:19.338)
in the adventurer's family line who finds out that they're a sorcerer. And they try to hide their magic for whatever reason, whether it's against the law now, whether it's just against the religion. Crown of Candy, for example, from Dimension 20. It was a very low-magic world outside of the world of Candia, which was where the adventuring party was from.
So like outside of the nation's borders, magic was frowned upon and it was looked like a thing against the church. And so the church, the bulb, the great bulb above was the only thing that permitted miracles, so to speak. So magic, yeah, it's just cool. Like imagine coming from a world where you have to hide or stifle your magic for whatever reason.
So we can see then that sorcerers, just by their definition alone, have incredible opportunity for storytelling.
100%. I think I found my next character. I say that almost every week, don't I?
We haven't even got into the character. We know you we're not we're so the debate yet
speaker-1 (15:28.908)
Listen, wizards are cool too, but like, sorcerers? We won't know until you talk about That line is intriguing. Anyway, we'll read about wizards, shall we? Okay, wizards are defined by their exhaustive study of magic's inner workings, AKA third nerds. They cast spells of explosive fire, arcing lightning, subtle deception, and spectacular transformations.
What?
speaker-1 (15:55.128)
Their magic conjures monsters from other planes of existence, glimpses the future, or forms protective barriers. Their mightiest spells change one substance into another, call meteors from the sky, or open portals to other worlds. Most wizards share a scholarly approach to magic, again, nerds. They examine the theoretical underpinnings of magic, particularly the categorization of spells into schools of magic. Renowned wizards such as Bigby, Tasha, Mordenkainen, and
Yolande, that's a new one for me. I've not seen that name. Yolande, Yolande. No, Yolande. Y-O-L-A-N-D-E.
Loravin, help us out, help us out.
Yolande have built on their studies to invent iconic spells now used across the multiverse. The closest a wizard is likely to come to an ordinary life is working as a sage or lecturer. Other wizards sell their services as advisors, serve in military forces, or pursue lives of crime or domination. But the lure of knowledge calls even the most unadventurous wizards from the safety of their libraries and laboratories into
crumbling ruins and lost cities. Most wizards believe that their counterparts in ancient civilizations knew secrets of magic that have been lost to the ages, and discovering those secrets could unlock the path to a power greater than any magic available in the present age.
speaker-0 (17:26.232)
So Tony, it looks like if we were to take similarities right now. So we can see that they're arcane spellcasters. But the difference, the main difference we can see just from a description alone is that sorcerers have a magic, their magic comes from within versus wizards, their magic comes from the art of study and scholarship.
learned magic.
interesting. So I feel like that's a huge different component that we need to take into account as you debate whether or not you want to be a major spellcaster and exactly how you want to build story plots.
Yep. Well, I'll even say from Zook, if I were to play Zook again, Zook was my character from our last shared campaign together, was a, he was a wizard and he studied books in this pirate island that he grew up on as they kind of came through, you know, the shop. So,
Zook was learning constantly and found spells over time and started just kind of, yeah, building a spell book theoretically. And that's how he became a wizard. He wasn't born necessarily with the power, but found out later that he contained a certain amount of power that led to cool story arcs in the whole campaign. And no, Jerrick, you did not kill my father. Thank you.
speaker-0 (19:02.996)
And that's the debate for now.
No, that's another debate that we settled. My father did not die in that underground. Messed up Frankensteinian lair.
Anybody that joins our Discord, you want to get into this debate or want to know the story, we'll chat about it.
We will chat about it. And I will even get on a video chat with you guys to have this conversation. Craziness.
So then Tony, you bring up a really good point. So we get into the semantics now of sorcerers and wizards, right? So once we start to go through these, breaking down obviously the standard things with both classes, like as a level one character, you gain all the traits of the core sorcerer traits tables and the wizard traits tables. You gain the sorcerer level one features and wizard level one features.
speaker-0 (19:57.934)
All this multi-class options. We understand that right? Yes, but One thing we do need to discuss and do and open up with which is exactly what the source book opens up with is spell casting mm-hmm the biggest difference in regards to sorcerer versus wizard Folks you will find that sorcerers The biggest key difference here is that sorcerers will have
A more limited amount of spells than wizards do, but the sorcerer spell list is permanent. Versus wizards, you will find a wide variety of spells, but only a certain amount can be prepared per day. So I'm going to read through the level one spellcasting for sorcerer for obviously more detail and then Tony will go through for that for wizard. So I'll just touch base on level one just in general for sorcerers.
That's right.
speaker-0 (20:55.746)
Level 1 Spellcasting for Sorcerer. Drawing your innate magic from your innate magic, you can cast spells. See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting if you want to know more about that and its deeper semantics. But the information that I'm about to detail below will show us how we can use those rules with Sorcerer spells, which appear in the Sorcerer spell list later on in the class description. If you open up a physical book, you'll see a list of spells. Cantrips. For Sorcerers, you know four cantrips of your choice.
Light, Prestidigitation, Shock and Grasp, and Sorcerer's Burst are recommended, but that is not the only four. Whenever you gain a Sorcerer level, you can replace one your cantrips from this feature with another Sorcerer cantrip of your choice. But again, we are discussing Sorcerers at this moment, once you pick a cantrip, it stays until you have the opportunity to switch. That's another we'll touch on that in just a second with Wizards.
When you reach Sorcerer levels 4 and 10, you'll learn another Sorcerer cantrip of your choice in addition to those, as shown in the Cantrips column of the Sorcerer Features table. For spell slots, the Sorcerer Features table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your level 1 plus spells. You regain all expended slots when you finish a long rest, pretty standard for all spell casting.
For level 1 plus spells, you prepare the list of level 1 plus spells that are available for you to cast with this feature. To start, you choose two level 1 sorcerer spells, and they give you a couple recommended ones, but not anything you have to do. The number of spells on your list increases as you gain sorcerer levels, as shown in the prepared spells column of the sorcerer features table. Whenever that number increases, choose additional sorcerer spells until the end number of spells on your list matches the number of sorcerer features
on the table. Simply put in a long paragraph you're given a list of spells and you have slots to choose how many spells you can have for sorcerers those begin to be permanent. So pick carefully. Pick carefully.
speaker-0 (23:01.144)
but it does say whenever you gain a Sorcerer level, you can replace one spell on your list with another Sorcerer spell for what you have, spell slots. So only gaining level can you do that. Just note that Charisma is your spell casting ability for Sorcerer spells, and you can use an Arcane Focus as a spell casting focus for your Sorcerer spells. Also at level one, you gain Innate Sorcery, and based on the backstory and what we have read about Sorcerers,
This states that an event in your past life left an indelible mark on you, infusing you with a shimmering magic. As a bonus action, you can unleash that magic for one minute, during which you gain the following benefits. The spell save DC of your sorcerer increases by one. You have advantage on the attack rolls of sorcerer spells you cast. You can use this feature twice and regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.
speaker-0 (24:00.854)
So, kind of a lot there, right? When it comes to spellcasting, this is both wizards, this is both sorcerers, and any other spellcasters, a lot of words are jumbled up inside of that combination. As you build your spellcaster, this is when you open up the book to say, what spells do I want, how do I want them in relation to my character, and what are available to me. That is in...
level one description of all of that right there. Just open the source book to choose your spells. And a personal recommendation, a little tidbit, I typically pick spells based on my character backstory. That's just me. That's what I like to do. I like to say this is my character. This is what I feel like my character would have.
Yeah.
speaker-1 (24:52.184)
And that's a very good way of doing it, though, too.
Tony
go, yeah, go. That's a very good way of doing it because thinking through how you're, as you're building a character, everything you do moving forward has to reflect, I mean, just like in your own personal life, how did you get to where you are today? You've learned certain skills, you've learned certain abilities, you've done these things. You wouldn't be able to just pick up a violin just because you randomly
saw it on the shelf at the music store and we're able to start picking it up and playing it just because you know how to play saxophone. You'd have to learn that ability or I don't know where I'm going with this, but like.
I know.
speaker-0 (25:41.654)
You're true. You're correct. And that's one key difference when we come to sorcerers, right? A sorcerer, and depending how you wanted to do it, me personally, as a sorcerer, I'm gonna pick spells that fit my backstory. Some people, when we debate between sorcerer versus wizard and who's better, as you're about to outline, as a sorcerer, I'm not bound to that based on my character building, but that's what I would do.
Yes.
speaker-0 (26:11.562)
As a wizard, I'm not. As a wizard, you can, you can choose spells that still fit your backstory, but you have a wider variety.
Yeah, and let's learn a little bit about that. Okay, buckle up folks. The wizard spellcasting portion is a little bit longer than Sorcerer, so here we go. At level one spellcasting, as a student of arcane magic, that's the first difference, by the way, between Sorcerer and Wizard. Sorcerer talks about the innate magic, whereas Wizard, again, just a touch on that, as a student of arcane magic, again, the learned version.
You've learned to cast spells. See chapter seven for the rules and spell casting. The information below details how you use those rules with wizard spells, which appear in the wizard spell list later in the class description. Cantrips, just like a sorcerer, you get cantrips. You know three wizard cantrips of your choice, Light, Mage Hand, and Ray of Frost are recommended. Whenever you finish a long rest, you can replace one of your cantrips from this feature with another wizard cantrip of your choice. This is cool because after every long rest, you have the option to
flippy floppy, some cantrips if you choose. Different than a sorcerer. That's only changing when you're leveling up and gaining another cantrip, so to speak. When you reach wizard levels four and 10, you learn another wizard cantrip of your choice as shown in the cantrips column of the wizard's feature table. Now, spell book is a new thing different than a sorcerer. The wizards have their spell book. Your wizardly apprenticeship culminated in the creation of a unique book, your spell book.
It is a tiny object that weighs three pounds, contains 100 pages, and can be read only by you or someone casting Identify. You determine the book's appearance and materials, such as a gilt-edged tome or a collection of vellum bound with twine. The book contains the level one plus spells you know. It starts with six level one wizard spells of your choice, detect magic, fa- yeah.
speaker-1 (28:16.588)
Detect Magic, Feather Fall, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Sleep, and Thunder Wave are recommended. And let me tell you folks, those are some good ones. Whenever you gain a wizard level after one, add two wizard spells of your choice to your spell book. Each of these spells must be a level for which you have spell slots, as shown in the wizard features table. The spells are the culmination of arcane research you do regularly. Spell slots.
Those are great ones.
speaker-1 (28:44.44)
The Wizard Features table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your level 1 plus spells. You regain all expended slots when you finish a long rest. Prepared spells of level 1 plus. You prepare the list of level 1 plus spells that are available for you to cast with this feature. To do so, choose four spells from your spell book. The chosen spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. The number of spells on your list increases as you gain wizard levels, as shown in the Prepared Spells column of the Wizard Features table.
Whenever that number increases, choose additional wizard spells until the number of spells on your list matches the number in the table. The chosen spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, for example. If you're a level three wizard, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of levels one and two in any combination chosen from your spell book. If another wizard feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don't count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature.
but those spells otherwise count as wizard spells for you. Changing your prepared spells. Whenever you finish a long rest, you can change your list of prepared spells, replacing any of the spells there with spells from your spell book. Spell casting ability. Intelligence is your spell casting ability for your wizard spells and spell casting focus. You can use an arcane focus or your spell book as a spell casting focus for your wizard spells. Now there's a section here called expanding and replacing a spell book.
I would just recommend if you guys want to dive deeper into that, go ahead and read that. That's a big old thick few columns. But there are ways you can expand your spell book and copy spells into your spell book after picking up things like spell scrolls throughout your adventures. But go through the player's handbook or the free rules on D &D Beyond and go take a look for yourself. A lot of information, folks. It's cool stuff.
And then you still have ritual adept and then arcane recovery.
speaker-1 (30:41.216)
You ready? To continue on with Wizard level one ritual adept. You can cast any spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and the spell is in your spell book. You needn't have the spell prepared, but you must read from the book to cast the spell in this way. Arcane recovery. You can regain some of your magical energy by studying your spell book. Whenever you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover.
The spell slots can have a combined level equal to no more than half of your wizard level round up and none of the slots can be level six or higher. For example, if you're a level four wizard, you can recover up to two levels worth of spell slots. We're gaining either one level two spell slot or two level one spell slots. Once you use this feature, you can't do so again until you finish a long rest.
You truly need to be a scholar to understand how to play this wizard class.
Preach.
I guess there's a pretty key difference right there is that sorcerers can tend to be a little bit more straightforward because when you character build it's like here's my spells versus wizard you really do have to be methodical with it.
speaker-1 (31:52.972)
Yeah, but let me say this. Don't any listeners out there that are feeling a bit of overwhelm from the amount of information that we're presenting to you through the books.
Don't let that stop you from doing anything in these classes. Both are very manageable. And if you have a good DM, which most DMs out there are knowledgeable enough to help you in this kind of thing, or if not, find someone who is, don't be afraid to ask for help and learn something new.
I did not know what I was doing when I first started playing my wizard. And let me tell you, it was the most fun learning experience on how to play an arcane class that like, man, Zook was a blast. Truly a blast standing on the edge of a ship firing fireballs from my hand at the ships behind us. Anyway, that was a lot of fun and didn't know what I was doing at the time and it was okay and it was great. And Steven worked with us.
Yes.
speaker-0 (32:51.342)
The thing is, with any arcane spellcaster is there's two elements to D &D, right? You have the role-playing element and then you have combat element, right? you you don't have to be intimidated by the combat element of it, like Tony said. There will be time and opportunity to learn that and a good DM will have grace. But also focus on the fact to have a character in your mind.
And if a wizard aligns with that character, play the wizard. You know? Or play the sorcerer, whatever lines up.
That's a lot of good stuff.
there is. Tony I'm going on to level 2 with sorcerer here. This is where it starts to get really really good after all the information from there. Level 2 for sorcerer you gain a font of magic. You can tap into the wellspring of magic within yourself. This wellspring is represented by sorcery points which allow you to create a variety of magical effects. For sorcerer you have two sorcery points.
and you gain more as you reach higher levels as shown in the sorcery points column of the table shown below. You can't have more sorcery points than the number shown in the table of your level and you will gain all your sorcery points when you long rest. You can use these points to fuel the options below along with other features such as Meta Magic that use those points and we'll cover Meta Magic here in just a second. So a couple of these other features you can use your sorcery points on.
speaker-0 (34:30.764)
converting spell slots to sorcery points. You can expend the spell slot to gain a number of sorcery points equal to the slot's level, or you can create a spell slot with them. As a bonus action, you can transform unexpended sorcery points into one spell slot. The creating spell slots table shows the cost of creating a spell of any given level, and it lists the minimum sorcer level you must be to create a slot. So for example, if you're trying to create a level one spell slot, it would cost two sorcery points,
and a minimum sorcerer level of 2. And there's another table on the page that you can look at to describe that as your character levels up and more spell slots you gain. And at level 2, you gain something called Meta Magic. Because your magic flows from within, you can alter your spells to suit your needs. You gain two Meta Magic options from your choice from Meta Magic options later in the class's description. You use the chosen
options to temporarily modify the spells you cast. To use an option, you must spend the number of sorcery points that it costs. We, in just a moment, will go through all the metamagic options. We just want to go through all the levels to save the time because where Tony's was a little bit complicated with spell casting, the sorcerer gets more complicated between subclass and metamagic. So Tony, go ahead and read your level two.
Level two is a scholar. While studying magic, you also specialize in another field of study. Choose one of the following skills in which you have proficiency. Arcana, history, investigation, medicine, nature, or religion. You have expertise in the chosen skill. Super cool.
And then honestly, levels three through five are pretty basic for just about any classes I've discussed in the past. level three, you gain a Sorcerer subclass, which we'll talk about in a moment. Level four becomes an ability score improvement. And level five, you gain something called Sorcerous Restoration with Sorcerers. It says when you finish a short rest, you can regain expended sorcery points, but no more than a number equal to half your Sorcerer level rounded down.
speaker-0 (36:41.418)
Once you use this feature, you can't do so and again until you finish a long rest.
Same thing here with wizard subclasses. You gain at level three, a wizard subclass of your choice. You have options between the abjurer, diviner, evoker, and illusionist. And those are just detailed and we'll go through those in a moment. Subclasses specialization that grants you features at certain wizard levels for the rest of your career. You gain each of your subclasses features that are of your wizard level or lower. And level four, again, ability score improvement, just as the other classes have as well.
And level five, for a wizard, you do something called Memorize Spell. Whenever you finish a short rest, you can study your spell book and replace one of the level one plus wizard spells you have prepared for your spell casting feature with another level one plus spell from the book. Super fun.
Now folks, I do want to detail a difference here. For a sorcerer, you have a little bit more options in terms of coming into Meta Magic, and then as you increase level-wise, you'll start to see some progression. So for example, for a sorcerer past level five, you do have another kind of what we would call like an upgrade into level seven versus wizard. You...
I'm not going say you cap out at level 5, but you don't gain anything until level 18. You literally go from here's level 5 and then you shoot up to and then your next big upgrade is level 18.
speaker-1 (38:15.358)
Yeah, in terms of like bonus things per level, yes, utilitarian things per level short. But then when you start hitting level four wizard spells, level five wizard spells, level six wizard spells, boy, boy, did those get fun.
Yeah, a wizard is a beefcake at level four. Magically. And stays a beefcake for a long time. It's still squishy, so don't get me wrong. A sorcerer becomes a beefcake still early on, but it still takes time. I feel like it's a little bit of slower progression depending on how you do it, but a sorcerer or a wizard just gains it all so quick.
I'm still squishy though.
speaker-0 (39:04.322)
but I do want to come to the kind of a little bit more complicated portion, a more complicated portion when it comes to the Sorcerer just in general. We talked about that at level two, you do gain what's called Meta Magic. Now in the book, there is a significant amount of Meta Magic options. I'll read them and maybe go over some, not a whole lot, but you'll see why here. So,
When you use Metamagic, the following options are available to your Metamagic feature. These options are presented in alphabetic order. You can use Careful Spell, Distant Spell, Empowered Spell, Extended Spell, Heightened Spell, Quicken Spell, Seeking Spell, Subtle Spell, Transmuted Spell, or Twin Spell. It looks like most of them require one sorcery point. The only things that require two sorcery points are Heightened Spell,
and quicken spell. Rather than taking the entirety of the time trying to read through these spell options, which I probably could, but honestly, you'll probably become overwhelmed very quickly. Know that all these metamagic options are available to you. You don't have to just choose, say like, okay, I'm a level one character. My metamagic option is going to be careful spell. They're made available to you to utilize. So as a sorcerer,
If you have two, we're going to use this as an example, you're in a combat scenario and you have two sorcery points. You say, I want to use one sorcery point to use empowered spell. This, for example, says when you roll damage for a spell, you could spend one sorcery point to reroll a number of the damage dies up to your charisma modifier, minimum of one, and you must use the new rolls.
You can use empowered spell even if you've already used a different meta magic option during the casting of the spell. So those options are available to you that you can utilize. Just know that because they are available to kind of take that into account as you walk into a level two combat for your character.
speaker-0 (41:21.48)
and just be wise with how you use them. for any other options that you want to use, you can look at the source book to read all about these spells and they all have different advantages to them.
All right, Tony, I think we can touch base on our subclasses now.
Yeah. Wizard subclasses. To begin, a wizard subclass is a specialization that grants you features at certain wizard levels. As specified in the subclass, this section presents the Abjurer, Diviner, Evoker, and Illusionist subclasses. Abjurer, shield companions and banish foes. Your study of magic is focused on spells that block, banish, or protect, ending harmful effects, banishing evil influences, and protecting the weak. Abjurers are sought when
Baleful spirits require exorcism when locations must be guarded against magical spying and when portals to other planes of existence must be closed. Adventuring parties value abjurers for the protection they provide against the variety of hostile magic and other attacks. At level 3, Abjuration Servant, choose two wizard spells from the Abjuration School, each of which must be no higher than level 2, and add them to your spellbook for free.
In addition, whenever you gain access to a new level of spell slots in this class, you can add one wizard spell from the Abjuration School to your spellbook for free. The chosen spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots. In level three, Arcane Ward, you can weave magic around yourself for protection. When you cast an Abjuration spell with a spell slot, you can simultaneously use a strand of the spell's magic to create a magical ward on yourself that lasts until you finish a long rest.
speaker-1 (43:04.962)
The has a hit point maximum equal to twice your wizard level plus your intelligence modifier. Whenever you take damage, the ward takes the damage instead. And if you have any resistances or vulnerabilities, apply them before reducing the ward's hit points. If the damage reduces the ward to zero hit points, you take any remaining damage. While the ward has zero hit points, it can't absorb damage, but its magic remains.
Whenever you cast an abjuration spell with a spell slot, the ward regains a number of hit points equal to twice the level of the spell slot. Alternatively, as a bonus action, you can expend a spell slot and the ward regains a number of hit points equal to twice the level of the spell slot expended. Once you create the ward, you can't create it again until you finish Long Rest. That's some pretty cool stuff.
Dude, they're just like magical droid, I guess.
speaker-0 (44:02.008)
Sorry, I had to Star Wars reference in there.
Of course, for a diviner you learn the secrets of the multiverse. The counsel of a diviner is sought by those who want a clearer understanding of the past, present, and future. As a diviner you strive to part the veils of space, time, and consciousness. You work to master spells of discernment, remote viewing, supernatural knowledge, and foresight. Level 3, Divination Savant. Choose two wizard spells from the Divination School, each of which must be no higher than level 2.
and add them to your spellbook for free. In addition, whenever you gain access to a new level of spell slots in this class, you can add one wizard spell from the Divination School to your spellbook for free. The chosen spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots. Level three, Portent. Now this is one of the most frequently used by portent rolls. Glimpses of the future begin to press on your awareness. Whenever you finish a long rest, roll two d20s and record the numbers rolled.
You can replace any d20 test made by you or a creature that you can see with one of these foretelling rolls. You must choose to do so before the roll and you can replace a roll in this way only once per turn. Each foretelling roll can be used only once. When you finish a long rest, you lose any unused foretelling rolls. That came in so clutch.
was probably one of the greatest things that we had in our campaign.
speaker-1 (45:30.048)
Yeah, it just changed. It just changed things. It changed the game. The look on the DM's face every time he said Nat 20. Nope, you got a three.
Just the annoyance. That's one of those things where it's so fun because you can roll a d20 and you can be excited that you get a 20 because you can use that. But you can also be excited to get a one because you'll be like, ooh, I could rehab it.
Yeah, this says you must choose to do so before the roll. But we played in a way to where like, I would say home rules applied where it was very free to say, no, you didn't get that nat 20 against, you know, my buddy over here. You got a three instead. And that's, think, a super fun way of playing it.
I agree. kind of like that home rule better in my opinion. again, not not counting out against any DM that wants to play hard by the book.
Yeah, I saw that on Dimension 20 as well, fantasy, in fantasy high seasons where Adaine was a divination wizard and she would call out the roll after it had already been rolled. And that was a cool thing that Brennan allowed. And I'm like, great, let's keep doing that because it was wonderful. For the evoker class, create explosive elemental effects. Your studies focus on magic that creates powerful elemental effects such as bitter cold, searing flame, rolling thunder.
speaker-0 (46:45.016)
Keep it going. Yes.
speaker-1 (46:57.966)
Crackling Lightning, or Burning Acid. Some Evokers find employment in military forces serving as artillery to blast armies from afar. Others use their power to protect others while some seek their own gain. Level 3, Evocation Savant. Choose two wizard spells from the Evocation School, each of which must be no higher than level 2, and add them to your spellbook for free. In addition, whenever you gain access to a new level of spell slots in this class,
You can add one wizard spell from the Evocation School to your spellbook for free. The chosen spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots. Level 3, Potent Cantrip. Your damaging cantrips affect even creatures that avoid the brunt of the effect. When you cast a cantrip at a creature and you miss with the attack roll or the target succeeds on a saving throw against the cantrip, the target takes half the cantrip's damage, if any, but suffers no additional effect from the cantrip.
That's cool. It kind of beefs up your cantrips. Pretty fun. And illusionist. We've subtle spells of deception. You specialize in magic that dazzles the senses and tricks the mind and the illusions you craft make the impossible seem real. Illusion savant at level three. Choose two wizard spells from the illusion school, each of which must be no higher than level two and add them to your spell book for free. In addition, whenever you gain access to a new level of spell slots in this class, you can add one wizard spell from the illusion school to your spell book for free.
Yeah, it does.
speaker-1 (48:23.842)
The chosen spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots. Also at level three, you get Improved Illusions. You can cast illusion spells without providing verbal components. And if an illusion spell you cast has a range of 10 plus feet, the range increases by 60 feet. You also know the Minor Illusion Cantrip. If you already know it, you learn a different wizard cantrip of your choice. The cantrip doesn't count against your number of cantrips known. You can create both a sound and an image with a single casting of Minor Illusion.
and you can cast it as a bonus action.
I wish I could do illusionary role playing and things better. That's one thing I really want to get better at.
Yeah, it's pretty cool. I didn't do really any illusionary magic when I played.
I've always been a little intimidated just because I don't understand it fully.
speaker-1 (49:14.68)
The illusory
It can be challenging.
It can't, that's okay.
Alrighty, so last but not least folks, you're probably like, my gosh, are we done yet? The answer is no.
Then we put it recording for an hour.
speaker-0 (49:35.566)
Alright, it says a sorcerer subclass is a specialization that grants you features at certain sorcerer levels. This section presents aberrant sorcery, clockwork sorcery, draconic sorcery, and wild magic sorcery. We're going to start with aberrant. An alien influence has wrapped its tendrils around your mind, giving you psionic power. You can now touch other minds with that power and alter the world around you.
Will this power shine from you as a hopeful beacon to others? Or will you be a terror to those who feel the stab of your mind? Perhaps a psychic wind from the astral plane carried psionic energy to you, or you were exposed to the far realms warping influence. Alternatively, you were implanted with a mind flier tadpole, but you transformed into a mind flayer, never occurred. Now the tadpole psionic power is yours. However you acquired this power, your mind is aflame with it.
At level three you gain psionic spells. When you reach a sorcerer level specified in the psionic spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared. At level three in particular, you have Arms of Hadar, Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts, Dissident Whispers, and Mind Sliver. And at level five you have Hunger of Hadar and Sending Spells.
At level 3 you also get telepathic speech. You can form a telepathic communication between your mind and the mind of another. As a bonus action, choose one creature you can see within 30 feet. You and the chosen creature can communicate telepathically with each other, while two of you are within a number of miles each other equal to your charisma modifier. To understand each other, you must mentally use a language the other knows. The telepathic connection lasts for a number of minutes equal to your social level. If it ends early,
You use this ability to form a connection with a different creature. So that's all about the mind. Next is Clockwork Sorcery. The cosmic force of order has suffused you with magic. That power arises from mechanists or a realm like it, a plane of existence shaped entirely by clockwork efficiency. You or someone from your lineage might have become entangled in the machinations of Modrons, the orderly beings who inhabit mechanists.
speaker-0 (51:55.768)
Perhaps your ancestor even took part in the great motor on March. Whatever its origin within you, the power of order can seem strange to others, but for you, it's part of a vast and glorious system. Level three, you gain clockwork spells. Some of these clockwork spells for level three are aid, alarm, lesser restoration, and protection from good and evil. Level five, you gain dispel magic and protection from energy.
In addition, consult the Manifestations of Order table and choose or randomly determine a way your connection to order manifests while you are casting any one of your Sorcerer's Spells. And you would roll 1d6 to determine the Manifestations of Order. And you can go ahead and observe that in the book when you have an opportunity. Level 3, you also gain Restore Balance. Your connection to the Plane of Absolute Order allows you to equalize chaotic moments. That's pretty cool.
When a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself is about to roll a d20 with advantage or disadvantage, you can take a reaction to prevent the roll from being affected by advantage and disadvantage. You can use this feature a number of times equal to Charisma modifier, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest. It's like you're shaping the clockwork of time and order. It's very cool. Number three subclass is Draconic Sorcery.
Your innate magic comes from the gift of a dragon. Perhaps an ancient dragon facing death bequeathed some of its magical power to you or your ancestor. You might have absorbed magic from a site infused with a dragon's power, or perhaps you handled a treasure taken from a dragon's hoard that was steeped in draconic power. Or you might have a dragon from an ancestor. Level three, you gain draconic resilience. The magic in your body manifests physical traits of your draconic gift.
Your hit point maximum increases by 3, and it increases by 1 whenever you gain another sorcerer level. Parts of you are also covered with dragon-like scales. While you aren't wearing armor, your base armor class equals 10 plus your dexterity and charisma modifiers.
speaker-1 (54:05.536)
super cool.
At that same time, you also gained Draconic spells. Level 3, you gained Alter Self, Chromatic Orb, Command, and Dragon's Breath. And level 5, you gained the Fear and Fly spell. Very useful and crazy cool spells. And the last one is Wild Magic Sorcery. Your innate magic stems from the forces of chaos that underline the order of creation.
You or an ancestor might have endured exposure to raw magic, perhaps through a planar portal leading to Limbo or the Elemental Planes. Perhaps you are blessed by a fae being or marked by a demon. Or your magic could be a fluke with no apparent cause. Whatever its source, this magic churns within you, waiting for any outlet. At level 3 you gain a wild magic surge. Your spellcasting can unleash surges of untamed magic.
Once per turn, can roll a 1d20 immediately after casting a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot. If you roll a 20, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a magical effect. Now, when you scroll down, I've done this as a Sorcerer with Wild Magic. When you roll a nat 20, so you would get a d100, roll that, and then if you scroll down, there's a lot of cool effects that can happen.
I had the fortunate effect of turning into a flower pot.
speaker-1 (55:38.476)
a wonderful potted plant.
It was awful because you can look at any other magical surge in there and be like, this is dope. This is so... I turned into a potted plant in the middle of combat being chased by a worm like from the movie Tremors.
It was wonderful.
Continuing on, level three, you gain Tides of Chaos. You can manipulate chaos itself to give you advantage on one D20 test before you roll the D20. Once you do so, you must cast a Sorcerer's Spell with a spell slot or finish a long rest before you can use this again. If you do cast a Sorcerer's Spell with a spell slot before you finish the long rest, you automatically roll on the Wild Magic Surge table. And the one last thing I'll mention with this particular subclass,
The other three subclasses you gained initial spells, but this one you don't because it essentially replaces those spells with Wild Magic Surge opportunity. So just keep a note as you build.
speaker-0 (56:46.516)
And that, is our long-winded view class.
Yes.
You know, we do, but it's useful information, but I guess the question is, Tony, reading these subclasses, what is your final verdict?
through it.
speaker-1 (57:08.366)
Bro, as much as I love a wizard, I think that I would probably lean to play a sorcerer next. It's super cool. It's just so... Honestly, it's that one line that got me about the sorcerer. A sorcerer's magic wants to be wielded. It's just...
Ding ding, that's my vo-
speaker-1 (57:36.674)
That is, a storyteller, it can't get much better than that. Like, you have something that's built in your character that has to be released, that has to come out. And that can go so many different ways.
I agree, you know, I think it could be intimidating to play a wizard and while I do think they're cool and I do think they have magical, like they're magical beefcakes. Of course. I just look at the scope and the realm of a sorcerer. Yeah. And I don't choose and I don't settle this debate off of brute strength. I take a look at combinations of
potential of opportunity regarding combat, but also role-playing opportunity. And it sounds like folks that Tony and I have settled the debate and choose sorcery.
listen, there's gonna be plenty of y'all that disagree and think wizards will be. I hear it in my head too. And that's okay, let us know in an email, send us an email and let's hear your, what's the word I'm looking for? Your preferred class. Hit us up in the Discord and say, hey, we very much prefer a wizard for these reasons.
I know, I hear all this
speaker-1 (59:02.378)
So I would love to know those reasons. So please reach out to us.
Now if you do disagree, I'd rather see it an email on Discord than you giving us a one star on our podcast review. So let's not go that far.
No, we could choose to disagree and still love each other.
The truth remains, all joking aside and what we would prefer, you know, we say, let's settle the debate. But in regards to that title for this episode, the wizard versus sorcerer is a debate I don't think we're ever going to be able to settle.
And honestly, they are super close to the set. Well, let me rephrase this. They're not close in terms of...
speaker-1 (59:48.6)
how they became who they are. They're close in the sense that they're both arcane spellcasters. They use arcane spell lists. They both have a D6 hit die. They both rely heavily on mental ability scores. And these are just some of the comparisons and things like that. they're both kind of like in the same vein of, you know, you want to play a magical character, you can do so in either direction, and either would be fine. I think it's a lot has to do with...
how your party is made up and how you choose to either, you know, play in the spotlight as a specific character and everyone deserves spotlight at different points in the campaigns and how you choose to interact really is kind of the deciding factor. If you already have another wizard or you already have another sorcerer in the party, maybe be the other or you can both be sorcerers or you can both be wizards. But it's all about what...
fits the party the best in what's at your table.
And so we can agree then that both have a.
Both have huge roles.
speaker-0 (01:00:56.13)
And that's the thing with these classes is that D &D has them for a reason. Like they don't just exist because they're the same. They exist because they are different and they exist because they are useful. And I would like to use this opportunity to transition to our biblical conversation. You know, we talk about settling this debate of like,
wizard versus sorcerer. And I really was praying about it. And I thought to myself, you know, I can recall just so many of these like grand debates in the Bible. You know, we see the religious debate against Jesus. yeah. You know, we received that. We see Jesus calling them hypocrites and we see
Pharisees calling and the Sadducees calling him hypocrites the two predominant religions, right? Even after Jesus's time we start to see Paul preaching to the Gentiles and the Jews are coming at him like Why are you preaching on circumcision and with you know crazy debates and even to our generation now I One of the big things I've been doing is I don't have social media But I've been on YouTube recently and watching YouTube shorts
And it's all debates. Like it's all debates of Christians debating whether it's someone who's Islam or Mormon or, you know, or each other as a matter of fact. But I just, I, I'm gonna phrase it this way.
Yeah.
speaker-0 (01:02:47.328)
As I was preparing and praying for the episode, like I so desperately wanted to talk about it. And I felt the call of the Lord just say, that's not the debate we're trying to settle. The debate we're trying to settle is.
Yeah.
speaker-0 (01:03:06.446)
I wouldn't even call it a debate. I would say what we're trying to settle the score to is shutting down the noise and canceling out all the stuff that we hear around us and getting back to the heart of it.
Yep.
And really folks, there's not like a generalized topic at this one. Our goal, but this last half of the episode is truly, we just want to our heart. You know, we don't have grand philosophical things to say. You know, the Holy Spirit is just going to lead this moment. And it's because with the debates in the world, you can
it's always, it just feels like side against side and denomination against denomination and just so much stuff that we need to settle that debate and say, let's get back to the heart of worship. Let's get back to the heart of Jesus because that's what we're missing. We're missing the truth of the fact of
Maybe somebody and I may not agree on some semantics of the word and that's not what we're trying to talk about tonight. But at the end of the day, I should be able to look at my brother or sister and say, listen, we may not agree on that semantic, but we do agree on is this. Jesus is your Lord and Savior and he's mine. We've believed in our heart, we've confessed with our mouth and guess what? That's enough.
speaker-1 (01:04:54.978)
Yeah.
That truly is it. And we should encourage and lift up our brothers and sisters and say, we can't be living in those semantics. What we do need to live in is how do we embody the fruit of the Spirit? How do we live out the gospel and the commandments of Jesus that he laid out? And if we're not, how do we lead those to do it?
Yeah, it's funny that you mentioned the commandments that he laid out for us. That was one of the debates that the Pharisees had even brought up. Which of these is the greatest commandment? They're talking about the law of Moses and they're talking about, you know, all the different laws that they had for themselves created over time, like not doing work on the Sabbath, which Jesus broke. All of these...
quote unquote manmade laws and religious laws that the Pharisees had put in place over the millennia prior to Jesus. From the time of Moses when he received the 10 commandments and the people held fast to that law for so long and all of these laws are in place and only to realize that the person to fulfill the law was standing right in front of them and they just didn't even see it.
Like, it's crazy. So they're still arguing the semantics of like, which of these is the greatest commandment? In Matthew 22, it says in verse 34, but when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced all the Sadducees, they gathered together and one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him, teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law? And he said to him, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
speaker-1 (01:06:52.782)
This is the great and first commandment and a second is like it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." Like that last statement right there in verse 40, on these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets. a friend of ours preached a sermon, Richard, he spoke on the great commandment in like
It was so cool hearing him talk about like, nothing else mattered commandment wise if you're not getting these first two. Like, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and the first commandment. And the second is like it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. So if you're not loving God with these conditional things in mind, and if you're not loving your neighbor, the second being like the first, loving your neighbor.
Hmm.
speaker-1 (01:07:51.948)
with all of these conditional things attached to it. How then can we expect to fulfill the rest of the law and the prophets? Like all of those things. And it's just, they're debating all the nuances of the little microcosms of the daily things. And it doesn't matter because they're not doing the first two.
Well, and that's the crazy part about it is that nothing, you can do nothing apart from God. Like John talks about that, right? And Jesus was essentially saying in that when you don't love God and when you don't love others, you're going to fail every commandment thereafter. You're going to fail everything that the law outlines. had, I mean, we take the Old Testament 613 commandments.
613 that they're trying to follow and they're trying to live with right and Jesus says You want to know the two you want to know the two commandments that I need you to do? love and love
Yep.
speaker-0 (01:08:59.148)
Right? Because without that, we're nothing. First Corinthians, or I'm sorry, hold up.
I gotta say is I feel people miss that mark. Huge. The loving portion.
I mean, I think we'll always not be perfect at it.
no, you know, but I'm even saying like the ones that Jesus was talking to, they missed it completely.
And that's the problem, right? And that's, that's why, that's why I don't disagree with debates. I don't, think they're necessary, you know, in a way, in a way they're necessary. Like we, the, the word of God does outline that we had, we are to be prepared to defend the hope that lives within us. Right. But the problem is, is that we interpret that scripture to say, I need to scream at this person until my point gets across. I need to pound into them this knowledge.
speaker-1 (01:09:38.274)
Yes.
speaker-0 (01:09:54.754)
that I need to have. Right. But first Corinthians chapter eight, the very beginning of it, right. It says now about food sacrifice to idols. Let's stop right there. I understand that this particular scripture is talking about the food sacrifice to idols, right? Like the following of what Paul is going to talk about is about idol worship. It's about when you partake it. I understand it's about that, but Paul introduces this concept by saying this.
We all we know that we all possess knowledge, but knowledge puffs up while love builds up
The problem with modern day debates about this kind of stuff is there's a lot of people out there not coming from a posture of love. They're trying to win people over a posture of knowledge. They're trying to say, I know what I know and it sucks to be you if you don't know it. And that's the problem is I was not brought into the church that way. You were not brought into the church that way.
I think it's like theologians like Westhoff historians. I love those things because historians like Westhoff do an incredible job describing biblical historical accounts and brings to light information that that truly do convince people. But there's an also additional part of that that you have to come to true faith in Jesus Christ is saying
I have now received all of this and all this data. I received all the data that I have and now I have to make a decision. I'm teetering on the fence of I don't believe in Christ. I've never that I'm speaking hypothetically for a person who hasn't not myself. I have this information I'm teetering on the fence of I don't believe but I'm starting to see this evidential stuff that does make me believe and true faith in Christ.
speaker-0 (01:11:57.686)
Salvidic faith looks like okay. I have this data this data now and I am seeing and hearing about people being transformed by this Jesus I'm now going to put my trust in them and trust in him and Here's the hard part following that and where the debate lies in is So often we're trying to get new believers or non-believers to act like Christians
Why should we expect a non-believer to act like a Christian?
That's a fantastic question. It's like.
It's not gonna happen. We get so mad at people like, do they not argue this? Why they not act like that? Like, what do you want from them, dude? They're not saved. They're gut. They are living in the world. You're trying to yell and debate them about something they don't believe in. You're not convincing them with an argument of semantic. The best thing we can do
Yeah.
speaker-0 (01:13:03.692)
because knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. So the real question is how are you loving them? How are you presenting the word with grace and truth at the same time? Because Jesus combated debate with Pharisees and Sadducees with a woman in John eight and says, the law says we should stone this adulterous woman. They basically just said, this woman has done like vile
Gross things that we've witnessed personally sure and mosa says we need a killer straight up and jesus takes time to pause And they're hounding him and they're hounding him and instead of saying this is what the lot like debate debating the semantics Jesus gets to the root of the heart and says You know what? Okay If you have sinned if you have no sin in your life and you've never sinned
Go ahead, toss the stone at her.
do it. You think you're sinless? Toss a stone. What did he do in that scenario? Even those with knowledge of God and that all of them around there noticed and recognized that they are not without sin, that they are not without problems, and they could not cast that stone.
bet you some of the people in the crowd were the ones committing the sins with her as well.
speaker-1 (01:14:39.818)
there had to have been someone in the crowd that was doing something to then call out her sin.
unless she's the one saying, hey, I've done all this wrong, bringing herself to be stoned. But I don't think that was the case. So the ones who are condemning her had to have known.
they dragged her in front of him.
Yeah, so I bet you, if I would bet you a dollar that someone in that crowd was committing the sin with her and they weren't being the ones gonna be stoned. No. So.
And that's the thing is like Jesus was saying in essence too, you're just as guilty as she is. You may not have committed adultery like her, but your sins are equal to this woman's. And what did he say to the woman? He said, your sins are forgiven. Go now and sin no more. That's where we need to be leading people is
speaker-1 (01:15:38.254)
Mm-hmm.
speaker-1 (01:15:42.573)
Yeah.
And I get it. People are gonna become defensive. But the scripture I mentioned earlier, which is in 1 Peter chapter 3 verse 15, that says, be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. Right, the end of that scripture says this, but do this with gentleness and respect.
Why? Because Jesus did the same thing to them. Kind like what we joked about earlier. You have to take the log out of your eye before you judge the splinter on someone else.
Thanks.
We're in the business of bringing people to the kingdom. But so often we're trying to build our own kingdom out of
speaker-1 (01:16:30.456)
Mm-hmm.
speaker-0 (01:16:36.554)
and no one wants to participate in that kingdom. They want to participate in the kingdom with the heavenly father that says, I know what you've done, but I still love you. You don't deserve my grace. Yeah. I still call you worthy. This so many people I'm sure listening or listeners that you know, someone that has been condemned and shamed.
Yeah.
speaker-0 (01:17:05.634)
because of the gospel of Jesus. And for one, I'm sorry. And two, maybe they meant well, maybe this debating person to you or your friend, maybe they meant well, and they don't know how to communicate that gospel. But the heart of it is
We don't need debate.
When we say to give a reason for the hope that you have, you simply just have to go to people and share with them what Jesus has done for you.
something I'm writing a sermon on actually that really speaks to my heart and I hope this speaks to someone is I started reflecting and pondering when the Egyptian I'm sorry the Israelites came out of Egypt
God told them so many times.
speaker-0 (01:18:05.888)
reminded them of where they came from and said, I am the Lord your God. I am the God that brought you out of Egypt. I am the God that did this. I am reminding them because I think in the wilderness the enemy was getting to them.
and saying, you guys are nothing. Look at where you came from, your slaves, your prisoners. You don't know what to do out here. But God said to them, no, that's not your identity. Your identity is that you're my children.
You sure, you were a slave, but look where I brought you from. And the reason I'm a sermon on that is because I think so often we debate out of our own shame. We yell out of our own condemnation or we attack.
because we haven't dealt with our own eGyps. We're so held down by scars and we're so held down by pain.
but Jesus himself bared scars.
speaker-1 (01:19:26.242)
Yeah.
And it wasn't afraid of them. He went up to Thomas and said, listen, you're doubting, you're scarred, you're hurting. You won't believe until you see something. Look, look at my scars. Look at the holes in my hands and the cut on my side. Jesus wasn't afraid to hide those scars. He recognized what they were. And they were to a benefit of Thomas.
Mm-hmm.
but people need to know what we've been through, what you have been through.
Yeah.
speaker-0 (01:20:06.37)
because there's someone out there that has that is or has gone through the same thing that doesn't know Jesus and they need to see you and that is the defense you raise for the hope that you have in you not the semantic of what color the church floors need to be not the semantic of you know Hebrews chapter six study it on your own time not the semantics of
Pre-trib mid-trib post-trib like I learned in school like that's not the semantic That's that's that you can have cool conversation about that with your buddies who have been in the word for a really long time You can I'm not discouraging that I'm discouraging that with people who don't have salvation and they need to see the love of Jesus in their life Mid-trib pre-trib and post-trib
you.
speaker-0 (01:21:01.14)
is not going to save people. Jesus Christ is going to save people. And what is truly going to save people is to say, dude, you have that scar too. You were abused. You were an alcoholic. You were a drug addict. You got shamed out of the church. You had identity crisis. Me too. How about we go grab a cup of coffee? Because I want to share with you how I got through that.
Yeah.
That's what we're missing. debate, this dude, this debate is like, these debates I watch. I don't know, man. They just, they hurt my heart sometimes.
Yeah.
I mean, good on you people that, you know, that you feel called to it in that kind of evangelistic field. I'm not saying every debate I watch is wrong inherently, but...
speaker-0 (01:22:05.492)
I just feel deeply passionate at the fact that there is a lot of people that live in Egypt that are still bound in Egypt and they need to see the God that's about that desires to open their Red Sea. I Tony, what do you think? What do you think about all this?
No, I think there's a time and a place for...
debate, I just don't think it needs to be our first impulse. I don't think we need to jump to debate first. think we first, as Christians, need to show love before we show an argumentative spirit or trying to prove a point or trying to do something for the sake of whatever. We can even say it's for the sake of the gospel or for the sake of the kingdom. But like, I don't ever want to be caught in a situation where I'm just arguing.
partially to hear my own voice or whatever the thing is, but I don't ever wanna be arguing and say it's for the sake of the kingdom, yet not representing Christ in a Christ-like way. Because, I mean, like we said, there's time and place for it, but a debate just for a debate's sake is not worth it when you can display and you can prove.
point for the kingdom louder in loving action than you can with words on a debating stage or across a table at Thanksgiving arguing with Aunt Jane who thinks she's right about whatever thing, you know, it's not worth it. Because going back to, you know, going back to the Matthew verse, like,
speaker-1 (01:23:48.398)
Yeah, it says, should love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, mind. It's the first and greatest commandment and the second being like it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. So if you're not first and secondly displaying love, then we've got it all wrong.
So even the great debaters that we've seen on YouTube shorts or whatever, I don't know, Richard Dawkins and all these atheist debaters that we see battling the super Christians or whatever, the creationists, there are some really smart people out there.
huh.
But the smarts don't get you anywhere in the grand scheme of things because we can be too smart for our own good and we can try to logic our way out of the gospel. And I think that's what a lot of people try to do. But again, I think showing love is just, I'm just a big sap. And so Matthew 22 speaks to me.
I mean, think too, it's like, there's nothing wrong with knowledge. know, the Proverbs indicate the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Right. I'm not saying knowledge is bad, but Paul is correct. Knowledge, too much knowledge just puffs up. And like, there's nothing wrong with studying. There's nothing wrong with doing like what Wes Huff does and becoming a genuine historian. But every
speaker-1 (01:25:08.183)
Yes.
speaker-0 (01:25:26.52)
conversation I've seen him in with anybody, even if they're not a Christian, West Huff evokes a spirit of, I still love you, even if we don't believe the same thing. And that's really the biggest indicator. And I actually had this in full transparency when some Jehovah's Witnesses came to my house. My whole heart, and again, this is transparent, Josh.
Yep.
speaker-0 (01:25:56.94)
My whole heart was I need to get to my point of the gospel across to them. And it came from a heart where it was like I had a genuine heart that I wanted to share the gospel.
But at same time, the Lord convicted me. I did so much talking. And Lord said to me, Josh, you didn't even let them share their heart.
Not in the sense that I need to be open to what they believe. That's not what I'm trying to say, because there is foundational differences between a Jehovah's Witness and what we believe as Christians. That's a fact. Research that, study that. But what the Lord was getting at was relationship also had to be established.
I'm not going to get to the, I'm not going to win someone for the kingdom by outsmarting them or out-bibling them. But imagine just hearing someone's heart where they're at, like where they currently are, what they currently believe. Like as a, if we use a military example, you're not just going to run in the middle of a battlefield without a battle plan or without knowing the area or reconning the area.
Like that's being an idiot and you're gonna die out there if that's what you do. But then you can survey the area when you can recon the area and you know what you're looking at. You can start to go from there. When you see the heart of somebody, you have to recognize like this is where they are. They're here right now. And the prayer needs to be God.
speaker-1 (01:27:34.156)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (01:27:48.574)
Show me how I can start planting seeds. Help me to be steadfast in my faith. Help me to never waver. Help me to become planted so I can deliver your gospel like never before.
And that's where we want to be at, folks. That's our heart of sharing this, is that.
There's a lot out there. There's a lot of people. There's a lot of hurt people. And there's a lot of lost people. But this is a challenge to you. For one, look at your life and how you talk to people and ask yourself, how am I sharing the gospel? Am I trying to pound with knowledge? Or when I talk with somebody, do they see love coming from me?
speaker-0 (01:28:47.754)
if you've been a victim of such as what we've described.
speaker-0 (01:28:56.598)
and you know Jesus. Ask the Lord to bring someone into your life who has the same hurt and ask the Lord and give you the words and the wisdom to share that too.
And finally, maybe you're listening and you know somebody who needs to hear this, who has been sitting on the fence.
About like what do I believe? I hear this but then I feel this way but and they're just on that fence I'm gonna say a very powerful little story that I heard about this fence. Go I heard a story one time that said a man lived on earth and for he for this entire life he was in debate and back and forth whether to believe and he finally dies and he gets up to heaven and he sees
for it.
speaker-0 (01:29:50.616)
And he's on a white gate, like a white fence. He's just sitting on the white fence. To his left is green pastures, beauty, so many things he didn't even realize he would see. And on his right side, there's a decrepit burned field that looks like people are just wailing there in agony. And he stands and just looking at both sides of the land.
and he starts to feel somebody grab him and pull him towards the decrepit field.
speaker-0 (01:30:26.979)
and he says to this figure, wait, I haven't made my decision yet. I'm still on the fence.
And this decrepit figure, evil looking figure, looks at him and says, the fence is mine too.
speaker-0 (01:30:46.39)
there is no on the fence.
people, children of God. There is no on the fence.
We have a decision to make and maybe you know someone that needs to live into that decision. And for those that hear this story that are new to this podcast, that are new to even the faith or not, or I haven't even made a decision yet. You need to know something that we love you, that there is a God waiting to show you His glory, to fill you with His Holy Spirit, to show you love.
that there have been people that in your life that have cast stones at you for who you are. But God does not cast stones. Jesus Christ does not cast stones at you. Jesus Christ will meet you with love. He will be honest with you. He will ask you to depart from sin in your life. That's truth. But the grace comes in this, that he desires to bring you into an eternal kingdom.
and to have you walk a life that is far, not just in heaven, but also on this earth, that far surpasses anything you can understand. And he wants to bless your socks off, not just financially, not just physically. He wants to bless you in ways you can't imagine. He wants to be with you. He wants to dwell in you.
speaker-0 (01:32:19.96)
and all it takes is accepting him. He's not going anywhere. He's here. But he wants you.
That's the message we're trying to share.
Tony, any closing thoughts on that?
As you were talking about the fence, my mind went to Revelation 3, talking about the lukewarm Christian in verse 15 and 16. It says, know your works, you are neither cold nor hot, with that you were either cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
you
speaker-1 (01:33:07.016)
That's a very clear picture of the fence from a biblical standpoint and a very clear picture of, you know, being lukewarm even as a Christian. Like, we're not going to get into the whole topic of like salvation loss and like, can you lose your salvation once they've always saved? That's like semantics and tertiary stuff that
We don't need to cover that today. But talking about being a lukewarm Christian, like, and how we're going to be spewed out of His mouth.
Just, it brings me to the point of self-reflection. Where in my life am I showing, you know, that I'm on fire for the Lord? Where am I showing that, like, I have cooled down? Like, where are the things that are, or I should say, what are the things that are keeping me from totally being on fire?
speaker-0 (01:34:38.958)
Yeah.
and for grace to abound so much more because He is the God that keeps pulling us back in. So don't ever feel discouraged, even if you are in a season of being cold or lukewarm. Neither hot nor cold, I should say. But yeah, just take a moment and think about that this week. So that's my challenge and moment of encouragement, hopefully.
Well, Tony, think we have done extensive amount of conversation on all topics.
I completely agree with that.
Tony hates long episodes sometimes because it's triple the amount of editing work for him. But he loves talking anyway.
speaker-1 (01:35:25.102)
You know, it's...
I do enjoy this conversation on a regular basis and it needs to be more regular and it will be more regular.
Well,
Tony, let's let him go and let's give him our socials and pray it out.
Yeah, yeah, we'll get to it. I was, no, I'm very excited to be at this point in the episode, not just because we're wrapping up another good episode, but just because like we're getting closer to the holiday season and it's just exciting all around. And 2026 is going to be amazing and I'm so excited for it. And here we are. Socials, we are on Facebook and Instagram at
speaker-0 (01:35:46.604)
He said, we're not done yet.
speaker-1 (01:36:11.97)
Dungeons and Disciples. That's the word and spelled out, Dungeons, A and D, Disciples. And our email, if you'd like to reach us, send an email is dungeonsdisciplesatgmail.com, no end in that one. Again, dungeonsdisciplesatgmail.com. We have received some new emails recently and thank you guys so much for reaching out. I do love reading and Josh loves reading those encouraging words from you folks and just.
amazes me. We're not advertising this, folks. We're not really pushing this as we, as content creators probably should. So the fact that it's reaching new people on a regular basis, we're so grateful for that. And if you haven't left us a review or a rating on iTunes or Spotify or whatever, honestly, it would mean the world to us and help get this out to more people if you did so.
It does help a more than you would think.
Yeah, and we don't usually ask for it. Wow, I feel like really weird asking, hey, rate and review the show. That's a weird feeling. It's just not the word groveling, but like, you know, it's a simple request.
I can recall one time in an episode where we actually...
speaker-1 (01:37:26.894)
Once or twice we've done it, like, yeah, it doesn't happen often. So here's my formal, formal request to rate and review the show for this week. Again, that gets it to new listeners as we're constantly seeing, and we're so grateful for you folks. We are in our Discord channel and that will be in the episode description as well. So I'm so excited for where we're heading with all this stuff. And we have now officially only one more.
character class to do after this episode.
like praise the Lord
Unless we want to do like a bonus episode of Artificer. Maybe that could be our first Patreon episode. Patreon is in the works, folks. If you guys have any desire to kind of see more bonus content and like even to like, you know, an online meet and greet with us, that's a weird thing to say. But like any kind of bonus content you guys are craving or wanting, whatever. I'll even design stickers. How's that?
No, I don't.
speaker-1 (01:38:31.426)
It'll be fun. Then we'll start shipping out some stickers. I love stickers. My water bottle is looking blank in a couple of spots, so I need to fill my water bottle with stickers. Anyway, thank you folks for bearing with us for so long. It has been an amazing pleasure again to be on mic with my wonderful friend and brother, Josh. And do you have any other closing remarks?
I don't. I'm just eager to pray.
Do so and we shall conclude.
Heavenly Father, in the name of Jesus, Lord, thank you. God, you are so good. And Lord, I just am reminded every day I wake up when I see the sun that you are so good and that your mercies are new every morning. Holy Spirit, we lean on to you for wisdom, understanding, and even knowledge. And God, while there's going to be a lot of debates,
There's a debate every day that we can run into, whether with coworkers, friends, family, or even just what we see online, God. We pray that we would just not succumb to the noise. We would just lean into you.
speaker-0 (01:39:42.434)
and God that we would communicate out of love, grace and truth as you have called us. Let us not get so caught in religious routine, but in relationship with you.
God, we may be the only Bible that someone ever reads,
So we pray that you would give us wisdom. We pray that you would bless us, bless the listeners. And God, as Moses asked you, as we go forth presenting your kingdom and bringing people to the one who gifts eternal salvation, Lord God, as we move forth, show us your glory.
so that we are always reminded of your love and reminded of all of who you are. Thank you, Jesus, for this time.
and it's in your name that we pray and we give you all the thanks, honor, and glory in Jesus' name, amen.
speaker-1 (01:40:50.388)
Amen and amen. Thanks for listening everyone.
Bye!