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Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
So and I I I think many designers, myself included, like, back in the day or still a little bit today, we can get it wrong. You know, we can focus on the wrong things, just because we have this idea and we get a bit of tunnel vision, you know, without knowing, like, the business side of things. You mentioned that earlier. So if you in in one of the project projects that I'm working on, they have this list like these two or three things. We know it's currently kind of okay, kinda meh.
Nick:Yep. And we know it will be an improvement. It's not the most exciting work per se cause you already know what it's going to be. Mhmm. And then you also have this We are kind of live now.
Nick:This is what I always wanted to say. We are live. And we're officially live. We are officially live. Exactly.
Nick:I mean, this is just an experiment.
Tyler:I think I think one other big thing that will be I think we'll have to be aware of, especially in the SaaS space, is that I'm seeing a big shift in internal teams or internal tools. So because these tools are getting more accessible for context, generally, like the internals team who builds those tools, they usually get the lower end of the budget. So you'll you'll notice if you go into the enterprises will have, like, internal tools, but that'll be you can see the budget behind it. It's like low scope, low effort. We only have budget for this.
Tyler:Oh, yeah. But I'm seeing those teams grow, like, this year and to the next the next five years. You can buy a tool, but inevitably, it's like a one size fits all. And then if you're at that enterprise tier, what you're generally doing is, like, paying for a custom work to tailor it to your specific enterprise. So why not build your own tools?
Tyler:So I'm gonna see a lot of, like, friction in terms of, like, enter like, sales in terms of selling your SaaS product versus someone saying, well, I could just build my own tool, and then I can build it exactly how I want. I know exactly what our business needs for it to run. Why not build it internal? So I think that's gonna be an interesting challenge for current SaaS tools is to compete with teams who have their own who have who funded their own internal teams. Curious what you think about that.
Nick:Well, first of I can really relate to what you're saying. Like, the I've literally been in projects where they told me we do not use her test because only our employees are going to use this tool. And, yeah, that's when you're a junior designer, that's really a slap in the face because that because that isn't what you've learned in school.
Tyler:Yes. You know?
Nick:Yeah. I I I think if you have a colleague with a lot of agency and who's very AI curious, they will just experiment and build tools. I think you've shared something with me where you had a, like, a ticket creator, like a user story thing based on input. If Yep. Vaguely recall from from a few months ago.
Nick:Like, that's something you can create and you can show it to your team. And then when they're like, oh, that's interesting, they will maybe it will get adapted and people will start using it, and then the word spreads. Who knows? Before you know it, it becomes a big a big internal tool. And that's a risk for current SaaS tools.
Nick:Like, there are people who are going to replace you with something they create on their own. But I also have ideas on how to prevent that from happening, if you're if you're curious about it, because, accidentally, I talked about it today on one of my projects.
Tyler:Yeah. I'm curious what what your thought like, how do you like, if someone can create a tool internally and then they understand all the constraints and they only build what they need. So there's, like typically, if you're building a a SaaS that's it's for a specific vertical, it has all the edge cases built in. But, like, how do you compete as a SaaS product against something someone specifically tailored?
Nick:I mean, the feature bloat is really a thing. Right? Like, I just want to have this one thing, and now it's getting so big. Blah blah blah. Anyway, I think it's important to keep in mind that sometimes people just want to pay for a done for you type solution.
Tyler:Mhmm.
Nick:You know? They they just don't want to have the whole maintenance and hassle and all the stuff involved with running your own tools, or maybe people are not allowed to do so because that's a distraction from the thing they're they have to do on a daily basis. So, you know, so that could be something that applies to many companies. But the way to survive as a SaaS with that in mind is to be flexible. And that sounds a bit fake, like you something you would find in your random list school, like, you know, advise one, be flexible.
Nick:But it will make sense in just a bit. What I mean is, let's say you are someone who's someone with a high agency. Like, you're you build things. You want to design things, and you you are you're experimenting with automation and all that kind of stuff. If your current tool is not flexible, you're looking to replace it.
Nick:But if it is flexible, so it's has a connection with Zapier and Make and it has an MCP and that kind of stuff. Then you're looking, like, how can I incorporate this tool in my workflow? So that's the big difference. So if you want to survive, as it says, you have to open the door to the outside world. Let all these tools communicate with your tool because then it's just like piracy.
Nick:Like, back in the day, you would download all these music, all these albums, all the music because, you know, it's I'm not going to pay $20 for one album. Right? But now, then you have Spotify and Apple Music for, like, $10 a month. Those you'd rather pay $10 a month for you allowing you to be lazy and not having to do all the work. Mhmm.
Nick:And it's fine for people to pay a little bit of money for it. Like, that's what a SaaS is. Like, you pay a bit of money, and you don't have to deal with all the stuff. So that applies here as well. Like, if the you have a flexible product, people are more likely to see if they can connect it instead of replacing it.
Tyler:Ah, so it sounds like what you're saying is that, like, this the future of SaaS products needs to be integration ready.
Nick:Very much so. I use TypeFully for content, as you I think you know. And I was a bit struggling, you know, to come up with content ideas and, you know, being consistent in in sharing my thoughts and sharing work and and all that, the stuff that's involved with content. And then last December, you know, early or mid December, they announced, like, we now have integrations. We have an MCP, and you can connect with Cloud Code, and you can connect with Zapier and, you know, the the big players.
Nick:And that, you know, lights went on for me. Like, woah. Wait a minute. Now I can connect to everything else. So I went from, I don't know if I want to extend my subscription.
Nick:I don't I think I might do something on my own now to, oh, this is cool. I can use it so much more now. And that mind shift is something I think I think it's worth an experiment or a theory, basically, like, that many people think that way. Like, I don't know if I want to continue. Maybe I should do something on my own.
Nick:And then you can take it all away by just opening the doors and allowing people to do that experimenting within within your walls.
Tyler:I think that's a really good I think there's a strategy behind, like, the integration for SaaS. I think it sets up the right signals to kind of spider web into an enterprise or, like, to to a person's usefulness. Like Yeah. There's this idea of, like, a value ladder. Like, you have your entry point.
Tyler:We've talked about it before. Like, your entry point, the free tier, and then, like, we kind of upsell along the way. But, like, if your if your SaaS is integration ready, you're you're basically setting up signals via those integrations to see what you should be building next.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:So, like, part of the strategy is, like, you first, it's to get someone the quickest to value. So we've built this product. Let's see if we can funnel them to, like, get their first win, and then they're excited to use it again. And then via those integrations, those will be the signals to what to build next. Like, yes, we integrate into to Notion, into Jira, into these different tools.
Tyler:What are people integrating the most? And that'll maybe signal you to use, okay. Maybe we should expand on, like, the CRM piece because a lot of people are heavily leveraging that integration on the CRM side. Might be an interesting move.
Nick:I mean, that's that's product thinking and lots of strategy right there. You know? And that's, I mean, that's one of the three pillars that you started this episode with for a designer in 2026. Right? So this is the the the project management slash strategy part.
Tyler:Yeah. I think yeah. Exactly. Full full circle here. Like, that understanding, like, how you grow your product is super important.
Tyler:Like, the the competition is is get the the quality is getting high. The competition is getting high. Like, what are this what what are, like, what are the tools or the levers you can pull to, like, differentiate yourself from the market and also grow, like, the product as a business? Like, it goes beyond like, I really think, like, the aesthetic part and how things look are like table stakes. Like, you should know that they are super important, one, and you should know them, and then let's move on to the other skill sets that you need to level up.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I think so. You know, it's something I think is also very important for a designer is something that happened this morning. Great discussion about known improvements and unknown improvements and where you should spend your time and and efforts, like, which of those two.
Nick:So and I I I think many designers, myself included, like, back in the day or still a little bit today, we can get it wrong. You know, we can focus on the wrong things just because we have this idea. We get a bit of tunnel vision, you know, without knowing, like, the business side of things. You you mentioned that earlier. So if you in in one of the project projects that I'm working on, they have this list.
Nick:Like, these two or three things we know is currently kind of okay, kinda meh. Yep. And we know it will be an improvement. It's not the most exciting work per se because you already know what it's going to be. Mhmm.
Nick:And then you also have this long shot. Like, we think it might be an improvement for something that's already quite good, but we don't know. So the amount of effort that you have to put in to just figure out if the idea you have will be a improvement, yes or no, is going to be that's going to be a lot of work. And then also, if and when you find that improvement, it's also very likely that it will be a lot of work to actually build the thing. You know, the the bar is already quite high in that part of the product.
Nick:So it's easier to bring that level two thing to level three thing rather than getting level three thing to a level four thing. Having that business awareness or being able to discover the known improvements and knowing what's an unknown improvement from your stakeholders is going to be very important. I think that's a a clear way for a designer to be valuable. You know, no thing to focus on.
Tyler:Yeah. I think the percentage of error that we're gonna be get moving forward is gonna be so small that we'll have to validate our bets. And then Yeah. Like, what I'm seeing a lot, like, to your point is a lot more incremental iterations or shipping things more incrementally. So, generally, you're shipping like an MVP, but I I see a world where, to your point, like, the long shot, you'd probably want to ship, like, a point three verse versus, like, a point five or or or a one to see, like, oh, should we continue building even though it it doesn't meet it doesn't fully push a user to the end of their task.
Tyler:Like Yeah. Let's let's make measure like, the risk is too too large. Like, let's validate early and kill things before they get too bloated and the costs Yeah. Like, development costs get way too high.
Nick:Yeah. I think so. So I I think that's that's one of the the great things of our current time. You know, the I think we're behind the age of crappy MVPs. Like, I think they will be less crappy out the gate, like, first version.
Tyler:Yeah. Because the the comp like, again, competition's gonna be too high. Like, a crappy version doesn't beat a good version anymore.
Nick:No. No. So at the same time, the amount of slop is also going to be more, going to be higher because it's way easier to build just something, not really think it through and just launch and see what happens.
Tyler:Yes. Yeah. So the and then I think another differentiator, like, the the the founder led product, SaaS products, are gonna be how you inch ahead. So to your point, there's gonna be a bunch of slop out there. Like, there's a bunch of tools that you can get.
Tyler:Like, which one do you pick? I think the the anchoring on someone's emotional, like like, connecting with someone individually versus the the enterprise is gonna be the way to go. So I'm seeing a lot of founders jump on podcasts creating content as as the main funnel. But I I'm I'm understanding or I'm connecting with this founder, and then I'm learning why he's building his business. So I'm connected to the vision rather than the product immediately.
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:This person is the funnel to, like, make me adopt this this tool. I think branding is gonna be the differentiator or, like, super important or, like, table stakes, like, this year and the next. It's like, what difference the one slot from the next is the person behind it and then their vision. Like, it'll be a slot today. But Beav, and I believe in this founder that he's gonna build the tool that eventually I'm gonna love and adore.
Nick:Well, I I can see that. You know, people are sharing articles and podcasts with interviews where they well, where they interview, you know, big names within our world, and then they're like, you look at this. I can really feel this too. Yeah. Might be something I should do for my own strategy, appear more on on shows, you know, where there's a you know, my market where they're already there.
Nick:You know? Yeah. I used to do so in 2023, 2024. I haven't done so in a while.
Tyler:Yeah. It'll it'll feel like double duty. Like, it feels like, well, I'm I'm a content creator. I'm not a business owner. Like, it's both.
Tyler:It's the it's part of the marketing. It's I I'm sharing my vision, talking, articulating, talking in in in realms in the inter or pockets in the Internet where my users live. Yeah. And then I'm bringing in business that way so I can get to the work. It's it's basic it's it's basically extending the sales call into into social media.
Tyler:That's how I kinda see it.
Nick:Yeah. How much should a designer do that type of networking, both on the job and off the job, do you think?
Tyler:I think I think we're in a world of relationships. We've we've talked about it before with when you're engaging with recruiters, like Mhmm. You're you're every relationship or moment matters. It's gonna be very important. Like, when you're in a sticky situation, what is the line?
Tyler:Your net worth is your network. So it's Yeah. Back in the day that if I were to get to be that 100% designer, like, that was it. Like, the more the better I am a designer begets more business. That's that's not the case.
Tyler:It's who you're talking to, your relationships. That's Mhmm. What facilitates Yeah. Getting getting more more contracts.
Nick:Yeah. I think that's true. You know, build it and they will come. It's not it's not how it works. Yeah.
Nick:But then also, you know, do not talk as if your audience are also designers. You know, that's that's a mistake I made for a long time and I see many people make also. Alright. So, I mean, we have quite a few things for a designer in this changing world. Mhmm.
Nick:You know? But I don't really think we even talked about actual, like, hard scale design, color theory, psychology, and gestalt and layout. Does that mean that it isn't important anymore, or did we just forget it?
Tyler:No. I don't think I forgot it. I just assume here's my here's my thought. I think we're not like, it's very easy to think that we're forgetting, like, that stuff doesn't matter. Like, I'm seeing in my post lately when I'm when I'm doubling down on the other skill sets that it's like, oh, well, then the the core skill set of designer doesn't matter.
Tyler:Typography, layout, etcetera, white It is the first thing you should have, and you should be really good at it. Mhmm. Full stop. Yeah. And more.
Tyler:Like, that's the first level. Like, the reason I'm not talking about it because I I assume if you're a designer, you love that part. You eat and breathe, like, design theory, learning the history of it, learning all the skill sets. Yeah. Yes.
Tyler:Yeah. But it's easy to get lost in that. So I don't think you should forget about it. It's it's yes and for me.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Yeah. So I I what I really like in what you just said is the I should be really good at it and more.
Nick:The and more part, it feels like it's almost a requirement to get hired and to survive on the job.
Tyler:It's what our differentiator was in the market in the first place. We design, and that's what's unique about us. And then that's our vehicle into to the rest. Yeah. Like like, we can do we're gonna be able to do all the business thinking, all the development work.
Tyler:What what makes us unique and separates from the pack is that design background.
Nick:Yeah. Well, but I I also mean within the design community from designer to designer. Like, if you have competition, as a job seeker or as a freelancer, the things the the thing that makes you send out is going the extra mile. And that's what you said with the and more part of your sentence. Like, I don't think that's going to be optional anymore.
Nick:No. The base level of what people expect from a designer is going to go up, and you have to find your new extra mile just to stand out again. And I think that's a good thing. It means that we're getting better as a profession.
Tyler:Yeah. I think that's what it's gonna be. And then the out the the added value into it, like, if we go back to the idea of, like, this builder person, you're we're gonna be, like, we're gonna be constantly working. There's not gonna be that period where there's no design work this week or there's no development work this week because we're we're we're blocked. It's jump in where you fit in, and let's help to grow this business.
Tyler:And then you have now you have this this Swiss army knife with skills that you can jump in where you're where you need it. You're not waiting because it's not design turn. It's not design's turn yet, or it's not project management turn yet. It's it's let's I we we can jump in where we need to.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Just an example of that is the founder of another project flagged me in this course with a screenshot, like, hey. This is what it's looking like now, and I don't think it feels right because of these reasons. Look.
Nick:I looked at it. I was like, yep. Makes sense. I think I agree. I told him I'll work on it.
Nick:And me working on it is just going into the code base, look you know, looking it up. I already know the improvement, doing it, and putting in the the PR for review. Yep. And then it's done. You know, it's small enough that I can design it and code directly.
Nick:You know? Just I'm just being summoned, basically. There's always work. Just make this quick test, this quick improvement. And that's a lot of fun, actually.
Nick:And it feels good to just tinker away on something and make it slightly better. So I'm I'm very happy and very much looking forward to all the changes of this year. I do not have AI fear at the moment, at least. I'm currently riding the wave of excitement in in terms of design plus AI. I think it's very cool.
Nick:I I can would consider myself a builder. I really enjoy that that name, crafter. When I play a game, I'm always the crafter.
Tyler:There you go. You're already there, man. You're already there. Like you said in the beginning in last episode, you're you're ahead of the pack.
Nick:Yeah. Well, I I try to be. So and I think that's a very safe strategy. Like, you know, you have people who are very concerned about AI. Like, it's going to take away jobs, which it probably will.
Nick:You know? But if you are in a group and you're concerned that the whole group is going to be faded away, the best position to be is on top of the group. You know? Like, you're the the you're in the best position to jump ship. And it's it sounds very selfish, the way that I'm putting it, but if you are already, like, AI native and AI curious and already building and designing and doing so many things, you have so many bets open that whatever happens, you're likely at the front of the line when you have to go somewhere.
Nick:So I feel quite safe as a designer this year.
Tyler:Yeah. I'm I'm with you a 100%. Like, if you're one of the people who are not afraid to kind of stretch themselves, yeah, You're good.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's a bit of a a silly one liner, but all you have to be is curious about the things that are changing. Experiment a little bit, see what sticks, and then you should be fine, basically.
Tyler:It's gonna be fine. Just work just it'll be fine. Just work your face off. It's fine.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I just took a two and a half week break, so I'm yeah.
Nick:I think the balance is there, but that might be my silly European brain talking.
Tyler:No. I'm with you. I'm aligned.
Nick:Yeah. Oh, well, that that's good. Like we should as cohosts of this show. Right? Yeah.
Nick:I think so. Alright. Well, I hope that this has this has been helpful. You know, it's just a it turns out to be more of a free format discussion on the future of design and AI and and soft skills. Yeah.
Nick:Good one.
Tyler:I think good one. I think there's some decent nuggets in there. Yeah. We had our magic hats on. We're seeing the future.
Tyler:I hope this helps.
Nick:Yeah. We should review this episode in a year and then laugh about all the silly things we said.
Tyler:Let's do it.
Nick:Alright. Cheers.
Tyler:That was a great episode. So if you like this content and wanna hear more, please like and subscribe.
Nick:Yeah. And if you want to see more, please go to designtablepodcast.com, Spotify, Apple Music, all the big players, and more.