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Follow one church's journey as they depart from modern church growth trends and reinvent themselves by equipping everyday Christians to live out their faith in real life. Find episodes and show notes at www.dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
Danielle (00:17.56)
Thanks for joining us today. Welcome in. Today we're going to talk about lessons from the Eurythmics, shifting from growth to depth, mind mapping job descriptions and a really cool development tool. Hi, Derek. I'm fine. Great.
Hey Danielle, how are you? you know, good, good. Yeah, we're coming down the homestretch this week, so that's always good. I mean, I don't know.
always coming down the home stretch every week. Okay. Okay.
of a week.
Derek (00:44.774)
Although I do feel like I've come out of a very busy season. lots of, I'm teaching a lot of classes. So in addition to everything else, I had three classes going for the last six weeks. So everything just kind of wrapped up on that, which is nice. And they've been awesome too. So it's like bucket filling and also bucket training. Just because it's time and extra evenings and I haven't had evening stuff this much since I was a youth pastor, feel like. A lot of evenings.
Man, days. Man, you really lose that muscle. I'll tell you what. If someone asks me to do something on a Wednesday, I'm like, what? No. No, I don't know. No, thank you. Hey, so I thought we could talk about something interesting maybe. OK. So as some of you may know, we do like a really big Christmas program for our city.
What's Day?
Derek (01:38.317)
Yeah.
at historic theater downtown, a Warner Theater downtown, and every year I start to have like a series of dreams like leading up to it. It always happens. And so I have my first one. It feels like higher stakes than normal. It's not, but it's just the pressure we put on ourselves, right?
So this is a 10 year, this is 10 year.
Danielle (02:01.964)
Yeah, I was sitting on a table with Brian Leske and we were like, what about this? And everyone laughed for like a solid 10 minutes. Then we ended up doing it that year, like two months later.
And here we are 10 years later and still doing it.
Yeah, that's why like when we get into it, I'm like, we did this the first time with like two months notice. We're fine. We'll get there.
Right.
But it's a lot of work. It's lot of work. It's a huge stage. So you can't do some rinky-dink thing on a big stage. know, six or eight thousand people that come out to it and, you know, four or five services across those two days. So, yeah, it's but the whole city comes out. It's been wild to see it grow and...
Danielle (02:27.918)
how to really scale up.
Danielle (02:40.812)
crazy. yeah, you just feel, well you feel it more probably, but you just feel like the weight.
the weight. So are these dreams premonitions or what? what kind of...
I just they're just so the reason I wanted to bring up this dream today is because again our mascot was involved So we I get to the I get to the Warner, but the problem is the Warner is our 300 person Old worship center on 38th Street. that's the seating. Okay, but the stage is the Warner My dream. Okay, so I walk in and I'm like, okay. I'm like we're gonna need chairs You know, I'm like not panicking but I'm like, but then I noticed there's like stuff everywhere
This is your dream.
Danielle (03:20.31)
Everything's piled up on all this front of house tables and stuff. There's like glitter, sequins, there's all this weird stuff. And I look and there's this person laying on the bench. Guess who it is? Taylor Swift. And she's listening. No, I know she's listening and she goes, she's like, Danielle, I like this. She's like listening in the open. She's like, this is good. I think this is fine. I'm like, okay, great, cool. And it was just like she was a normal volunteer. It was just like totally normal. And so we're walking around. She's like, hey, I can do whatever you need.
You have a problem.
Danielle (03:49.196)
Give me like whatever assignment, whatever, tour me around and then we'll figure it out. And then she's like, I'm talking all casual. She's like, probably the best thing I can do is help Maddie with the stems. I'm like, yeah, that's fine. And then Travis is taking pictures with Carlin and Daryl. okay. And he comes in.
They're taking pictures of him or he's behind the camera.
They're doing like capture team. They're like going around taking pictures.
They're taking pictures of Travis Kelce.
And he comes over to me, he's like, I don't think this is for me. And I was like, okay. Yeah, that's fine. Do something else. So then he started bringing in chairs with John Phillips and they're doing stuff. yeah. And so as I think the actual point of the dream is, as the dream progresses, everything's getting more and more cluttered. There's just stuff everywhere. constantly moving stuff to like set down a computer. then, you know, that's what it was. It was like anxiety producing just like.
Derek (04:26.64)
The Setup Crew.
Danielle (04:43.114)
Stuff everywhere, too much stuff, too much chaos. And then it ended with Taylor talking. And she was like, hey, I've been thinking about it and I don't think you need my consent for this. And I was like, what do you mean? She's like, well, with the baby and everything. And I was like, well, no, we're not talking about your baby like as if she's pregnant. like, we're not talking about your baby. The baby we're talking about is Jesus. And she's like, yeah, okay, then we're good. And like, yeah, we're good. And that was like how it ended. So, okay.
Okay, so I have a couple thoughts. Do we have to talk about idolatry? No. Danielle, you seem obsessed.
Dream interpretation.
Danielle (05:21.334)
I'm actually not. I'm actually not. But yeah, I don't know. have been listening to her music. Her new one. So, okay, my question for you, that was a long intro there, but like, what is your like take on dreams? Do you think, yeah, what just hot take on dreams in general?
Okay, alright.
Derek (05:40.022)
So around my family, I have been known to be a fairly accurate dream interpreter. Because I do think we, our minds work themselves out in dreams. And so like, do think they are connected. don't think, I'm not like big into prophetic dreams or anything like that. Like I don't think we foretell the future or something. I mean, we can. The Bible talks about that being, that happening. So I think it can happen, but I don't think that's what usually happens.
Yeah.
Danielle (05:47.384)
Cool.
Derek (06:08.366)
I think what usually happens is our minds working stuff out and picking from symbols and pictures and things from our past and that kind of stuff. And I do think that there are general symbols that represent certain things. so, yeah, so whenever my kids have a dream, they always bring it to dad and we do like a whole thing. And some of them are, they're obvious to me, but they're not obvious to the person.
Yeah, like you say it out loud to another person the other person's like well, that's cuz you're
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of funny. I don't I don't dream much. Yeah. OK. And I'm actually concerned because I'm starting to get like I'm starting to get algorithm stuff of like if you don't dream, that's really bad because you're you're, know, body is not sleeping well, like you're not getting you're not getting to REM sleep. It means you have happening or something like that, which is also not good for you. so it's I actually have a little bit of anxiety around dreams right now because I'm like I probably should be dreaming more.
Yeah, but did you I did sometimes yeah, I've never been a big big big dreamer. Yeah, but Sometimes I do I do have a recurring a recurring one for my childhood of two one I walking through Like a modern zoo Okay, know, I'm not a big animal person but so for whatever reason I'm in this like it's all white hallways very stark
ever though?
Derek (07:35.296)
It's an inside, like an inside outside. So like glass containers that all the animals are in or whatever. And it just never ends. Like I just I can never get through it. The other one is kind of the opposite. I'm it's a baseball field and I get a hit. I hit the ball and I'm running to first base and keep falling down and can't make it to first. like I can't like I stand up and stumble again and stand up and stumble again and can never quite get there.
Yeah, so these are deep. Yeah, there's deep. But yeah, those are. Yeah. But I don't I don't dream when I do. It's it's usually meaningful like.
Yeah, I'm sure.
Danielle (08:18.51)
That's for me too. They're either like so profoundly weird that I remember them. Weird, terrifying, or yeah, I remembering it because it's like me and something. It's been a long time though. We went through a stint there where you were like, do we have to bring holy water to your house? Oh right, I know. Because that was bad though. That was something weird. Anyway, what are we doing?
terrifying ones. do.
Derek (08:40.224)
And there are actually I've had a lot of conversations recently about people that have been having dreams and stuff like so yeah, I don't know what's happening
Something, young men, what's the, isn't there like a young man dreaming dreams? Like End Times thing or whatever. So maybe you'll see visions because you're old.
Yeah,
Well, I've graduated divisions.
He's never gonna sleep. The guy's never gonna sleep. Let's just move him up to visions. Okay, thanks for indulging me. I just wanted to share my dream basically with you. Love it. Okay, so we're gonna move to our reinventing church topic for today. And this season, again, we're talking about the 11 shifts every church must make to be effective in our current cultural reality. And we'll start with something from Dave and Shane.
Danielle (09:26.722)
But I'm excited today because we're gonna get to talk about moving from shifting from growth to depth with our own pastor, Sarah Burt. Sarah is our pastor of content here at Grace. So she's very much in the genesis of like sermon series development. She does a lot of curriculum work, lot of her background is in teaching. And so she's just a great stuff. Yeah, which is super, super impactful.
Yeah, Sarah's just become one of my favorite people. She's a great deep deep thinker and just really awesome to have on the team So we're gonna talk to her about moving from growth to depth also secret little well not secret but like thing about Sarah is She's in your book untapped as one of the prime examples of what a high-capacity volunteer can look like so she's in our office our programming office 30 to 40 hours a week as everyone treats her
She's a full-time employee.
like so and she acts like so. So yeah, so it'd be cool to talk to Tara for a little bit.
Clarity House (10:35.874)
I was introduced to a metaphor recently from Andrew Herd's book, Growth and Change, that I have found just kind of turning over and over in my mind. And it was introduced to me in the form of a question. And the question is this, are you burdened to build a bigger barn or are you burdened for the field? Are you burdened to build a bigger barn or are you burdened for the field? Barns are focused on keeping what's been gathered and gathering in more. Fields represent what is still growing and yet
what is still yet to come. And it's a simple image, but I think it names attention, at least it has for me, that I think most church leaders feel. We often spend an enormous amount of energy building the barn, growing the attendance, growing, giving, growing program participation, while the fields are white with harvest. And as Jesus said, and the workers are few.
And I feel like, you know, that idea of the field being white with harvest is so true of our cultural moment today. And here's the thing, attendance and giving and program participation, those numbers, I mean, they matter, but they don't tell us the whole story, do they? They're not a great marker of success on mission. Jesus didn't say, go and make worship attenders. He said, go and make disciples. And so the question I don't think is just how many are showing up, but.
How are they growing up? What are they becoming? Not just what are they attending or what are they participating in? And if you think about it for a moment, all through the book of Acts, we see the people of God increasing in number, but that increase came as a result of God's people living and multiplying a Jesus-like way of life. I mean, that's the pattern, even maybe the sequence that is worth recovering. And I would say I'm encouraged to see that in churches that least we're engaging with.
we get a chance to work with around the country, there's a shift from a focus on just growing bigger to I think rediscovering some ancient practices of spiritual formation, things like silence and Sabbath and simplicity and scripture meditation and fixed hours of prayer. And in many ways, we're seeing that like a younger generation are really resonating with these kinds of things. And I do think it's a needed shift, especially after decades of kind of seeker sensitive kind of programs or
Clarity House (12:53.344)
or sometimes what was purely cognitive kind of gospel centrality, there's this hunger for a faith that feels rooted and holistic and transformative in daily life. Now, while this is helpful, history reminds us that it's very easy to overcorrect. Have you found that? And so here's the thing, formation that never overflows into mission risks becoming kind of self-focused, kind of an inner project that can lead to a
a spirituality that I think sometimes is fixed kind of on this kind of me and Jesus kind of fixation. And that's one of the reasons that when we come alongside at Clarity House church teams, we often help them identify first a compelling identity based, biblically grounded picture of what maturity looks like so that we have a target of knowing what are we actually trying to form people into. And we call this their dream disciple.
It's the kind of disciples of Jesus that their church is intentionally designed to develop and deploy, that their local community, their city desperately needs more of. Give a couple examples of this. It just was with Wabasi Bible Church in rural Indiana. And they're raising up disciples of Jesus who live as, now grab this, they live as secure sons and daughters, courageous connectors, ready storytellers,
and legacy builders, they want to see this, you know, second, third, fourth generation. Or I think of Menlo Church in San Francisco Bay Area, a multi-site church. And they're helping people embody what they call four kingdom priorities of living as, now grab this, living as an undivided follower, an unhurried friend, picture that in the Bay Area, thoughtful witnesses, and sacrificial developers. That sacrificial developers is their
their discipling language and it fits well in their context of Silicon Valley. But but here's why they care so deeply about the fields, not just the barns. They're raising the bar of what growing in depth should result in. And they connect formation being undivided followers or unhurried friends with multiplication, thoughtful witnesses and sacrificial developers.
Clarity House (15:10.526)
And I think what's helpful here is they describe what we might call a four dimensional kind of disciple. Someone who is living upward in relationship with God, inward in relationship with his people, outward in relationship to the world around them, and also forward towards multiplication in relation to a second, a third, and even a fourth generation. And I think this is what we see Jesus modeled in his life and his ministry where formation,
and mission were never separated. I mean, think about it, follow me and fish for men, abide in me and bear fruit, receive and give, you know, be with me and be sent. mean, the inflow of the one always led to the overflow of the other and the overflow, it was fueled by the inflow. So at its core, I think the shift of growing bigger, to deepening in depth,
is really about living in relationship and response to King Jesus. And I've found that two just really simple discipling questions that really kind of stir that kind of formation growth are simply this, what is Jesus saying to you? And what are you doing about it? What is Jesus saying to you? And what are you doing about it? And if I'm alongside someone asking that, then whatever they say is, how can I help?
And when those kind of three questions become the heartbeat of a church, I think the formation's finish line is not then just living with Jesus, but it's also living for Jesus. And so that times of prayer lead to moments of proclamation and that Sabbath-ing is restorative, but it leads to sacrificial serving and that fasting is powerful, but it also leads to feasting with sinners. And I think we see this idea of this growth to depth.
is not really an either or, right? In fact, I have a hard time even, know, articulating it as an either or. I just think it's a both and, but I do think one better serves the other. So the sequence of them really matters. I mean, Jesus, think about it. He wanted growth in numbers and he wanted growth in depth. mean, Luke through the book of Acts is tracking both. And even think about the apostle Paul. mean, think about this. In Ephesians 2.17 and Colossians 1.28, he describes God's mysterious plan for the church as both.
Clarity House (17:30.41)
extensive and intensive. It's extensive because the gospel reaches those who are far off. It's concerned and longing and burdened for the field. And it's intensive because in Colossians, Paul says he desires to present everyone mature in Christ. And so maturity is not merely gauged then by participation in worship or group, but increasingly living with Jesus and for Jesus, with our lips and our lives and our relationships. And I think that's the real shift from growth to death.
It's actually a depth of formation that leads to a growth in numbers, but the number is new followers of Jesus. So let me ask it again. Are you burdened to build bigger barns or are you burdened for the fields? Because how you answer that question will determine the type of discipling culture that you create and that you multiply.
Danielle (18:27.438)
Well, that was great from Shane. We're excited to be here with our very own Sarah Burt. Sarah has been very deeply involved in a lot of things here at Grace over the years, but especially right now, just reinventing kind of the way we train and what our discipleship pathway looks like and all those things as we're reinventing our own church in our Wake the Lake vision. So excited to talk to you about this today. Thanks,
Yeah.
Great.
We have like our own expert on our own stuff. All right, so let's start. So yeah, so let's dive in. I'm sure you're gonna have a lot of wise things to say. I want to give you time. Derek, first, like, let's just talk about just lay the land. Like, why do think it's easier for churches to like chase this numerical growth idea versus this depth idea? Yeah. What do you think?
Yes.
Derek (19:20.554)
I really do think it comes down to it. It's easier. It's easier to measure head counts than it is to measure actual change that somebody's making in their life. And that like you're so reliant on a store informal data gathering. So like story, is it really happening? And, you know, versus actually coming up with a real tangible ways to measure. people that are like in trying to measure things. Yeah.
It's just easy to go, yeah, we got five more people than we had last week, so it's a win. And it feels good. And it feels good. I think there's something about us that wants to feel like we're winning. And so it's much harder to know, people actually growing? Are they deepening their love for Jesus? How do you measure that?
I mean, the amount of hours that we've spent in meetings just talking about that question and like experts that we brought on staff and stuff. We're not there. We haven't figured it out yet. We're figuring it out. But it does take a lot.
It does take a lot and so part of it is literally just it's easier It's easier to count to count the people in the room and go are there more this week than last? It is yeah
And it is a measure of momentum. stop measuring. Yeah, you need both. Yeah. But yeah.
Derek (20:34.466)
Yeah, but I do think that you know, I do think that what we're talking about today does shift the conversation from just how many people are in the room because it's the quantitative versus qualitative thing that there is even just in the way we're approaching those rooms a qualitative change in how we are and and I think you know again, I'm sure we'll get into this but like I think even just some of the early results that we're feeling from like the
the training environments that we're creating are, for me, it has blown my mind that when we actually are giving people skills and not just new information, but skills that they, they're changing. You know, it's actually changing their lived reality of their day-to-day life with Jesus and with their friends. like, so again, hard to measure, hard to quantify.
But from a qualitative standpoint, I just feel like there is enough evidence even early on for us that this shift is gonna be well worth it.
So let's jump into that. just you've been obviously involved in a lot of this curriculum development and things even over the years like reading plans and stuff like that What principles like as Derek's talking about this and we're thinking through this what are what are guiding? Your design decisions nowadays. So we're moving from information transfer to transformation. So like what does that look like?
And I do think we've been doing that for a while, just trying to think of how things that we're resourcing and supporting individuals and groups with is more than just, I'm building my Bible knowledge and I could take a quiz and get a good answer. And trust me, I like to get, I like a good quiz. know, give me some old school sordrum. Yeah. But like making people, forcing people or inviting people, I guess would maybe be more to
Danielle (22:17.87)
quiz.
Sarah (22:32.076)
be more reflective internally and externally. So I think about like our reading plans, for example. It used to be that we just like give people scriptures and ask a bunch of questions. Now the structure is more like, okay, read, we're starting with scripture still. Here's a couple ways to reflect. Those reflection questions are leading them from like, okay, just observe to like, what would this mean? You know, what does this mean to like, okay, now ask yourself.
how does this apply to me in my life? Where do I see this in my life? Where do I need to confess, you know, depending on the scripture and then prompting a, well, what will I do next? Like, what is my next step? How do I take this from here to there? And so that's like a simple structure, but even building in their opportunities for people to flex a muscle that maybe they haven't had, like how do you confess sin? Well, that might be a no brainer for someone and somebody else is like, you know, so like, here's the three simple steps to like,
you know, how to pause for a prayer of confession right now and receive the forgiveness of Jesus, you know, like embedding that, writing that in, teaching people how to pray, those kinds of things. And making next steps not like big lofty, I'm gonna go change the world. Now what's the one, who's the one person that you can reach out to and say, I'm sorry today, you know, if that's the thing. things like that in like an individual reading plan and then transferring that to a group.
Right. Yes.
Sarah (23:56.446)
The larger structure would be like, how does the group connect? How's the group growing together? And then how are we, how is the group then gonna go and live this out? So if our mission is following Jesus as we live out God's story every day, everywhere, we want these times in either the group or the chair to be like a fueling station, just like a Sunday morning is the fuel. And you can measure how many people stop at the gas station to fuel up their car. But like it's fueling them for somewhere.
It's fueling them for something. It's fueling them for someone. so hopefully not just information and inspiration, but also sending them out this compelling thing of like, I can do this at home. I can do this in my workplace. I can do this. So I hope that answers.
Yeah, and I think my personal greatest surprise, one of the greatest surprises in this whole thing is that we're similar in this way and you are too. People are not, guess, naturally like introspective to have you say like, now how does this apply to me? Like, that's not just something people, all people do. Some people do. But like to just to it felt so simple for you probably to like break that down. But it has been transforming people's experience with those tools for sure.
Right.
Derek (25:12.398)
Yeah, and one of the phrases that I think was so helpful from Dave when he originally worked with us was, and we've talked about it on this podcast before, but the move from wow to aha. And so, do we want our people going, wow, Derek or Sarah really knows the Bible and that was a really great sermon, or that was a really great class that I was at, or do we want them to go, aha, I can do that? And I think,
you know, even just for us shifting how we present things and going like, can do this. This is not this is not like come and watch us do all the spiritual gymnastics and clap at the end that how great we were. But it's like, no, no, no. We want to frame this in a way that you can do it. Yeah. So talk about how how just spiritual rhythms and practices, how we've built that into our resources so that they form people, not just inform people. So why don't you talk a little about how we build that stuff in?
these days or how you're thinking about it as you're writing material or curriculum.
Yeah, I think some of that is small, small shifts, small changes in how you prompt, how you transition. Even if it's an individual reading plan, you're transitioning somebody from one thing to the next, from reading scripture to asking a question or what. I think there's some small things you do. I think of something as simple as just pause and take three deep breaths.
Hmm.
Sarah (26:37.838)
Right. There's like something, I mean, you know, scientifically breathing is pretty important. it's like, something like that.
Three.
But something like that, there's a shift in the brain to then receive differently, you know, what's about to come at you. And I think that that's like a subtle, you know, not a big like whatever, but puts you in a posture where you're ready to receive. So any like small shift that's gonna do that, that's gonna slow somebody down, give space for silence, like ask an open-ended question and let it hang there for a minute.
Training life group leaders for example, and you don't have to fill in every gap You know with silence with words like it's not necessarily more words Maybe it's more pause and reflection and prayer So I do think there's like some little bit of that like simple and those come out of spiritual rhythms and disciplines you know that people have been practicing for thousands of years, but I don't know that we've done them in community as well as maybe people have done them individually and so trying to incorporate some of those kinds of things
into community practices. I think we've done a lot of, we do this in preaching, we do this in teaching, we do this in training, where we allow people to express their own barriers or their own, what's holding you back? You wanna move from here to there, or we all wanna live with more peace, or we all wanna be better friends, but hang on, let's just pause and acknowledge where we fall down. And that...
Danielle (28:00.898)
That's good.
Sarah (28:13.632)
I maybe for someone like me who's an introvert just like allowing that space for me to be really honest first with myself and then it's like, turn to a partner and tell them I get a little vulnerable and express, know, and then at the end of something like that, hey guys, just let's confess. Like confession isn't this like heavy confession is an aha moment that allows the spirit to come in and then start to do something new. So those are specific.
One of my favorite questions around that, you just triggered me, that we were starting to ask in lot of our courses is like, if this thing is so important, because I think everybody agrees on whatever that is. So if prayer is so important for the Christian life, why do we do it so infrequently? just like framing, if evangelism is so important to the mission of the church.
why don't we do it more? And then just letting that question sit and letting people go, well, here's why I don't do it more, because this and this and this. And then, like you said, then just to confess. But I love that framing. Because I think we all agree that this is important. And then we probably all agree we don't do it enough. So like, where is that gap? I think naming the gap, helping people name the gap and confess the gap is really good.
And doing that in a space with others, see people's simple exercise. know, everybody, we put up six broad categories of barriers, come put a sticker on the two that are your top two. And then everybody goes and sits down and it's like, other people stickered. I am not the only one. Right. With this. And so then then then there's this collective like, OK, so we've all got that out of our system. And now we're going to move forward together and learn to do this differently. So.
Really?
Danielle (30:00.898)
Yeah, that's really cool. that's also a really good difference of the shift because if you're just sitting in a room of like 500 people, 200 people and you're hearing a message, obviously that's all still good. But it's very inspirational and aspirational. And you can sit there and be like, I'm never going to do this. I'm the only one.
Alright.
Everybody else is doing this and I'm not like
All
What am I supposed to do? And just instantly be rubbing shoulders with people that... Yeah, I love it.
Derek (30:30.894)
The other thing that you brush by, Sarah, that I just want to name again is that, you know, I think inviting people to think about it from their own perspective, you know, and we've talked before here again about like that autobiographical moment of like, think about a time when you did X, Y, or Z, or when you struggled with X, Y, or Z, or whatever, and when as soon as you can, in a training environment, as soon as you can get somebody in an autobiographical moment like that, all of a sudden, the information that they receive or the exercise that they do or the tool,
that takes on, there's some statistic around it that's ridiculous, but they'll remember 80 % more after they've had a moment of autobiographical ref... That whatever comes next after that, they'll remember or implement so much more than if you just dive right in.
Right.
Sarah (31:17.198)
Because you've you've suddenly moved them past just their brain to like their heart There's some sort of emotion attached to that There's some sort of you know feeling attached to that experience that they're remembering for themselves and and we are holistic people and so any I guess the breathing thing any any practices that we can incorporate that Involve the entire self mind heart body all the things I think but again, those are they're not huge leaps. They're small
you know, those are small things to implement that make a huge difference.
Yeah, I want to ask you both a question now. So from an organizational standpoint, think about our church overall. What has to change when a church starts prioritizing formation over attendance? So if we focus on formation and deprioritize attendance, what has to change? You want go first, Danielle?
Yeah, I mean, this might seem weird, but I think the culture has to become a storytelling culture. And even like a celebratory culture. We're not. And that's why it sticks with me because I'm like, if we can and we'll get to that in another episode, but if we can like unlock that and gatherings and things like that, like a way to do that. Because even just thinking like you guys that are.
on the front lines of piloting all these trainings and things like that. You're you're good. You guys are like so fired up. You're like telling all the stories. And then even for me, I'm like, cool, this is awesome. I'm so jazzed by it. But now I'm like. OK, now what can know this and how can they know it? And, know, how can we celebrate those? Like I called my neighbor. They hung up on me 20 times. We had breakfast the other day, like, you know.
Danielle (33:05.803)
We have to shift that culture. And I think we're trying, but I think it's gonna be critical.
That's good. How about you? You have any thoughts on that?
think it ties in with that. Like if we're calling people to, you know, the everyday everywhere, wherever they live, work, learn and play, then we need to be able to equip and support for the live, work, learn and play, which would include, you know, hearing their stories, providing a way that people can tell their stories, but also like, how are we supporting them? What does it look like for us to like, to know how to equip business leaders?
to live out God's story in the business world. We need to learn, but we need to know and understand how to support and encourage those things. it's the, mean, you've talked about this a hundred thousand times from assimilation to multiplication, but the assimilation can't not still be good. It has to be great. But in that other side of the things, well, we're in ministry. We know how to do the ministry stuff. Do we know how to?
Yeah, that's great.
Sarah (34:11.214)
to walk out these walls to support people the other six days of the week. And so I think it's been critical for us, and you guys have modeled this really well, of like, we will continue to learn. We will continue to be informed by, we will continue to grow outside these walls as ministry leaders just as much as we're asking people to go outside the walls and lead. I think that that's critical.
Yeah, I think about simple steps like, know, because again, this podcast for ministry leaders and so lots of people listening are ministry leaders. And so I think about like, even how do we adjust how we see our job? Yeah. Like what is my work? you know, I think about a little, I've done it a couple of times now. I have to prevent, resist the urge to like require all of our staff to do this three times a week or something like that because I'm fired up about it. like,
to visit people in their places of work. And again, for small church pastors right now, they're like, duh, dude, we do this all the time. Or like to visit people in their home. And honestly, it's not just that, like not just the visit, but then it's the connecting of dots of like, you visit somebody in their office and say, hey, show me around your floor, your whatever. And you go back to their office and go, how's Jesus showing up here?
how are you bringing your faith into this place? And like just a couple of key questions like that. And all of sudden dots are being connected, like even in somebody's home. Like what's God up to in your neighborhood? Like if you walk into somebody's home and go, what's God up to in your neighborhood? And they're forced to wrestle with that question and go, wow, I haven't thought about that. Like to me, part of our thing is just like dot connectors to go, Jesus isn't a Sunday deal. how is...
So anyway, I think about that too and just some like little that's not a big organization shift, but like for church leaders to be thinking about how do we view our work?
Danielle (36:05.26)
Yeah. Well, and even within the walls, we've been reigniting this, but thinking of our work more as developing people first, and we've always been about this, but reigniting that. Even the people that are in your own ministry who are volunteering, they still have a life outside of your church. That's right. So you can impact that through those channels as well if you're focusing on their development over the task that they're doing or whatever. Yeah.
Well, and you're, you know, it is a large church. Your span of care is finite. You can't do that for every person at the church. Go to every place of it is. But you do that for one. And then they they then turn to their colleague and they're like, hey, I was got, you know, they've got to. And suddenly, you know, that that starts it. It's an aha. Yeah, it's an aha. Like, somebody. Yeah, God cares. And he's working here.
Yeah.
And he's not only working on Sundays. I don't have to go find him on a Sunday once a week.
yeah.
Derek (37:08.046)
All right, so let's name some tensions. The tensions between the need to grow wider, and I think all churches and ministries experience that. I mean, we want to grow. Like there's a, that's an element of like health and success and like, is God really moving, working? Like numbers should be expanding. The tension between the need to grow wider and the need to grow deeper. And how do we think about those things and develop some sort of a healthy
approach to those two sides of
you
To me, this tension just starts with its and. You know, like, you know, just looking at the Great Commission, you know, making disciples of all nations, well, right in there is the and of like deeper and wider. But we also have that example of from 11, you know, after the crucifixion and resurrection to today, the church has managed to live in the tension.
Yeah, that's good.
Sarah (38:14.19)
And it swings, right? The pendulum kind of swings a little bit back and forth between the two things of like, well, let's just get as many people, it's the awareness versus, you know, like actually letting it settle in. So let's just make as many people as possible aware of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Let's just like put it out there, right? And media changed that, you know, historically not that this is a history lesson, but I think of like a Billy Graham, right? He's able to reach the whole world.
with the simple gospel of Jesus Christ. That's awesome. And then suddenly at the local level, I think that's where, I feel that you've talked about this before, Derek, the difference between like the church in general and what we should be focused on, and I'm a local pastor, right? And so I think that's where the whole like shepherding the flock, pastoring, you know, the people where God's placed you. I do think that's a challenge for us to like look, do the deep work of.
Yeah.
Sarah (39:10.946)
looking at what that means. So even with an eye to if you're doing it well, it will grow. You will need more parking. If the deepening is going well, people will be so compelled by Jesus that they will then invite and it will grow wider.
Yeah, right.
Derek (39:27.906)
So my question always to house church pastors who don't like organized churches is to just say, if it works? We're just going deep in my living room. What if it works? Because if you go deep in your living room, guess what's gonna happen? People are gonna be drawn to that. And those people that are going deep are gonna start telling people about Jesus because that's part of going deep is that you actually tell people about Jesus and then what if those people come to Jesus? And then what if your living room is too small? And then what if you have to need infrastructure and like...
And so yeah, it's not, I love your and comment. You have any thoughts on that?
I think, I mean it was gonna be mine, you said it way better than I was going to, but just, it's so much easier to be black or white. This like living in this gray tension is very difficult, but I think we have to continue to set our intention on that. Because then we'll just fall into that whole pendulum thing Sarah was talking about.
I think also, if I'm being 100 % honest, some of the tension I feel is...
Danielle (40:34.252)
I think there's a chance that some of us can attach certain whims and preferences and things to the name of Deeper or even Wider. Especially when you're messing with stuff. So I'm kind of like for myself, but also for other people just kind of like looking out for that like a hawk, just kind of like.
Wow. Yes.
we can spiritualize our preference.
Derek (41:03.254)
Yeah.
Where did that idea come from? Or why do feel that way? Or those deeper questions about stuff.
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and not even just preferences, but I even think about just like personal tradition. one of the conversations I've had recently is like people saying, grace is in a praying church. I want a praying church. And the conversation, one of the recent conversations I had is here's how I translate. So help me if I've got this wrong.
Yeah.
Derek (41:38.412)
when people have said that to me in the past, here's typically what they've meant by that. They've meant grace doesn't have a Wednesday night all church prayer meeting. It's a program request masked in spiritual language. I don't think you measure whether a church is a praying church or not by whether they have a Wednesday night prayer meeting that the church is invited to. I think there are other measures and metrics that determine whether. So it just goes to what you're saying.
Sure.
Derek (42:08.398)
we do need to watch out for those. You know, the other common one is, you I just need, I need the preaching to be deeper. You know, I need deeper preaching. Exactly. But it's always like, know, it, know, we were just in the back again. But you know, coming from a person who's been a Christian for 25 years, and then it's like, Hey bro, guess what? Guess whose job it is for you to go deeper into the word for you.
You guys need to get it together.
Danielle (42:23.138)
More dude.
Derek (42:34.284)
Not mine, it's your job. Like if you're not getting deep enough stuff from the scriptures yourself after 25 years of being a Christian, I can't help you.
heard this, but someone had an object lesson for that and they were like, how demeaned would you feel if I sat across a table from you and scooped the food up and put it in your mouth at a restaurant? As two adults in their 40s and I am just, I'm literally feeding you because you just can't do it. And I was like, yeah.
Has it grown?
Derek (42:59.422)
Yeah, I need to be fed.
Derek (43:06.702)
But I think that, you know, I think this and concept of just going wider and deeper, I think is right. And I think, you know, just go back to Acts 2, 3, 4, and go, the church went from 120 to 3,120 in a day. And, you know, the Bible talks about that transition and the day, you know, and I imagine all of the complaints, you know, it's not just the four of us at Mary's Bible study after...
know, synagogue on Sunday. Now all of sudden there's people beating down the door, and because God was doing a work, and I think you look at how they navigated that, and it wasn't like, no, no, no, no, we're not gonna grow, we're going deeper, or vice versa. There was this, I love reading that section of scripture through the lens of like, what did the Holy Spirit do, and what did the apostles do in response? And there's a synergy there. There's a movement, and they met from, in the temple course, they met from house to house.
Innovation.
that came from growth and they were saying, we're gonna go wider and deeper. And we're gonna navigate this thing. So I just like that picture.
Yeah, well and you think about Paul, know, he went into temples and started there He also just went into the marketplace and did that, you know, so there was like hey those of you who are Jewish I want to take you deeper out in the group, know the expansion of it, but yeah, it's the Holy Spirit intention
Derek (44:29.324)
Yeah. Anyway, Sarah, how has this journey toward depth changed your own walk with Jesus? So as we've been going through this as a church, organizationally, we've been in lots of rooms together where we're talking about making this shift and it's easy to just think of these things as like program decisions. But I think as we are all, we're walking through this as followers of Jesus ourselves and we're being affected by some of these changes that we're making on a big scale personally. What has that been like for you?
You
Good, hard, very stretching. I actually had this scripture come to mind in Psalm 16. This is David writing, and he says that the boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places. And we read that recently and was like struck by, what does he mean by those boundary lines? And I don't, mean this.
Maybe the wrong interpretation, but this is what I feel like God was saying. Like I took this boy. Sorry, from shepherd over sheep to like shepherd king over the whole of the nation. Right guys. I'm not equating myself. King David, but that recognition of like, if we will, if we will follow, if we'll give it all up, he's going to stretch those boundary lines to places that you didn't think you were going to go, you know,
Mm.
Danielle (45:36.866)
Mm.
Danielle (45:50.986)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (45:56.59)
preparing you all along the way, like, and I've said this before, like, I think small and God has repeatedly stretched that boundary for me over and over and over again. I mean, thanks to you guys and people, but yeah, it's just that willingness to like, okay, God, I'm gonna follow and where are gonna take me? And for me, he's stretching me from smaller to bigger. For other people, that might be like,
The reverse thing like you have grandiose ideas about yourself. I'm gonna pull you in I want you to get a yeah, I think it's like How awesome is our God that he would personally? Call and move each of us even while we're in the same church on the same journey with the same mission to do the same thing, but Yeah for me. I just feel tremendously Honored and those boundaries are hard, but they are falling in pleasant places like I am quite certain that this is the journey that
that.
Danielle (46:32.238)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (46:52.566)
Not only I'm on, but I'm on it with you guys.
Yeah. Thank you. That's cool. I think about a room we were in the other day that, you know, we decided to, you some of our team were saying, hey, because we're piloting all these new things. And some of the team were saying, hey, we, you know, we need to know a little bit more about these classes. And so I decided to spur the moment in the moment to just like pull one exercise out of the intentional friend class and just use it in the room. It's a little five minute.
Use it and it was called the now to next prayer and just said okay I want you to think about off friendship a new one that you want to build an existing one that you want to deepen or a broken one that you want to restore Yeah, so call one of those names to mind and we're gonna pray for them this now to next prayer We're gonna identify where are they now? What could breakthrough look like and where might they be next and the room is in tears? Yeah, and and it's this moment of just like all of us were just like
weeping, praying for our friends and just going, this shift for us from going, we're not just gonna be about, we're gonna create stuff that allows people to actually integrate their faith into their daily life. And when I see even what it's doing to our leaders and to me and to you and to you, and like as we're walking through this, it's just such a cool thing. anyway, church leaders who are listening.
Let me, we've shared a lot of really, really, really practical stuff today. And I would just encourage you, if you're still kind of chasing numbers and making sure that the attendance is up and to the right every week, man, would you just experiment with one of these things that we talked about, like even just building a rhythm into a training or doing an autobiographical moment or that question, if this is so hard, why do we do it so infrequently and open up a moment for some confession or whatever?
Derek (48:42.604)
I just think taking one of those little steps and seeing the power of going, we're going to lean into formation, into depth versus just growth, I think would be a great step to take. So Sarah, thank you so much.
Thank you. I love the pleasure.
Danielle (49:06.956)
Okay, so let's move on to our Behind the Curtain segment. This is something we just like to share, something that we're actually doing at Grace in real time. We already talked about Christmas earlier in the episode, but something that happened with our staff this past week, we have these things called development hours where, what is it, once a month? Don't quote me, once every other month, something like that. Anyway, every once in a while. Yeah, we do like an hour.
Thank
where we focus on, we really wanted to turn our attention to the idea of like development as individuals, as staff members, and just lifting up that competency for everybody. So we're having development hours where we focus on different things. And this week's was on mind mapping our job descriptions. Another word for, some people might say like concept mapping or spider diagram, but basically it's that idea of those bubbles, like a bubble connected to another bubble divided up.
Yeah, so you want to talk a little bit about how we do.
So I realized that, because it was funny as we were coming back, because this is like a follow up to some of the training we've been doing around untapped church and how do we equip, develop, resource volunteer leaders in our church. And so we kind of followed up that study with these four skills that we're now training. so mind mapping, it's not obvious right off the bat how that applies to
Derek (50:34.638)
Developing volunteers, but it is very much connected. And I realized that my dumb way of saying it, that I said it in my book. I talked about breaking big jobs down into small jobs. And that's basically what mind mapping is. There's a lovely thing to call it. I called it breaking big jobs down into small jobs. But when you think about it, that is deeply connected to our ability to
That was funny.
Derek (51:02.87)
recruit and empower volunteers because until we can get our jobs down into pieces that can be given away or that we're good at and can do, we don't necessarily have names for what we're inviting people to participate in. so, and obviously the flip side of that is just helping to empower people in what God's called them to do. But when it comes to this kind of like moving the church forward,
we have these jobs that need to be done. And in order to get people to, or to allow people to serve in those ways, we need to break those jobs down into smaller jobs. And so the mind mapping thing is a way to do that. And I just think that Erin presented some great tools for us to consider. And basically everybody just took their job description. Our job descriptions are pretty simple here, three or four points. And basically just had us create a center
you know, for those jobs. And then out of that circle came a series of four or five circles that are connected to that job and says, what are all the things you have to do to get that job done? And it just breaks it down and breaks it down and breaks it down into its smallest, you units.
Yeah, I think the cool thing too, there's a couple of other things that happen. One is, one of the, we've talked about this, one of the barriers to like finding volunteers is feeling like you don't have the capacity to do so. And so this really helps you see on paper, what actually am I responsible for? Because job descriptions, ours are really good. I think ours are really effective, but even so, like it can just get, you can get out of scope. Those words on a page. you can make it.
be something it isn't, it can go all kinds of ways. So it also helps, I think, like center the person around what are the most important things that we need to accomplish here, I need to accomplish here. And then in some ways it's counterintuitive, because as we were doing it, I was thinking like, okay, we're getting down to like task. Like once you start branch, branch, branch, eventually you start to get to like actual tasks. And that's not the point. But then you get, the cool thing is when you see it,
Danielle (53:14.69)
then you can reverse engineer and cluster, like, okay, this is an ownership area. That's how my brain works. He tried to get us to ownership at the beginning, but I had to go all the way out and then pull back in. But I think that's a cool way, too, to then you're inviting people to something that it's a pie piece they can own. Versus, can you make the copies? Yeah, you might make copies, might be part of it, but you're owning the health of the office team or whatever.
That's right.
Derek (53:42.126)
Yeah, and the other thing that it does, I think for the person doing that exercise, and again, it did for me as well, is you start to kind of branch it out, is then it forces you to ask yourself question for yourself, not just for the volunteers, but for yourself, like, what are the things only I can do? Yes, that's a good question that we ask a lot around here. Yeah. But it's like, what are the pieces of this that really I need to do or only I can do?
Then once you've identified that you could even like color in those yeah parts of the pie or whatever. That's just like that's me. I know that's me Then that's what also allows you to go. Okay, so some of this other stuff I could give away like I don't have to do this, right? Either because it's outside my scope of gifting or you know, it's or I know somebody who could do that really well. But I think that's the other value of it. It helps you really say here's the stuff that's that that only I can yeah
Yeah, that's good. Yeah, really good exercise. We were talking to you on our team just about, I think that was our team or somebody on my team about just the idea of like, it's not really fair to say like, you put the time in now and you get the time back later. That is a little bit true because you can put more time into your passion or whatever. But really what you're doing is you're right sizing and trading. So you're saying like, this is the thing that only I can do or the things that only I can do. And then these are the people now.
that I'm gonna develop to do the other thing. So you switch from like, maybe this is just small stupid example, but let's say you only have four tasks in your job description. By turning those other three tasks, keeping one, and turning those other three tasks into ownership areas, you're then trading time. It's less time, but you are spending time developing the people. But I think that's a trade-off because then, or it's a good trade-off because then they can do the same thing and develop more people, same thing.
It's what's going to make the
Derek (55:35.31)
Yeah, it's the way you explain the ministry. And you're right, there is a time trade off. I do think that the time trade off is big upfront. Right. And then it decreases as we go as people get more comfortable in those roles. Although then you do get into the pattern of having to replace that role sometimes. there always will be time to recruit, equip, help people to step into those roles. But yeah, the...
you're trading the time from doing it yourself, which is then allowing more people to participate in ministry. like on Sunday afternoons when I go home with my tongue hanging out after a long day and cry on my chair because God let me do this again and I got to see impact that God used me, that we get to invite more people into that moment. There's nothing more compelling than to go, I got to be used by God.
Thanks
Danielle (56:34.327)
Yeah, totally.
And if we can share that moment with more and more people, man, the church.
it's so awesome. agreed. Agreed. Okay.
comes alive. I just made a note to myself. try to include the link or something in the show notes about mind mapping just so people could have a, it's a common thing out there that people can probably just Google it, but we can show them maybe one of the tools that we use.
on that. Great, yeah good idea. cool. All right so speaking of tools let's move on to our last segment tips and tools. have, sorry I made you talk so much during that I'm realizing, you have your tool today is four surprisingly simple practices that fuel development. Yep. So this will go right along with it.
Derek (57:13.172)
And actually this is it is related to this mind mapping thing because it is the one of the workshops that I'm leading in this same series. And so when we're talking about, you know, what are some of the skills that we need to develop to help develop volunteers? These are some of the development skills, the four of them that I came up with. I'm calling them four surprisingly simple practices, because really, when we think about like developing volunteers again, it's not just recruiting people. It's going.
And it's not just handing off tasks. It's not just delegating tasks. We're saying we want our leaders to be developing people. And developing people means there is a task component, but there is a, you're discipling that person component too. And so how do we do those two things? And so these are four practices that I think help us do that. And they are quite simple. And so,
We're including the tool, so I'm not gonna cover it all right now, I'll just give one little snapshot. The four simple practices are intentional encouragement, catalytic conversations, on-time training, and candid feedback. And so we're just kind of building out what does it look like to do those four things on a semi-regular rhythm with people that we lead. And I just have a hunch that development
is is downstream from those four practices. So if we can just keep those kinds of things in the rhythm, we will be developing people. And so, for example, I'll just give you a I'll pick out one of them on time training. So there's you know, obviously, we do lots of upfront training and trying to equip people for what they're doing. But on time training. So I know that, you know, my my I did the 13 year plan.
These are good.
Derek (59:05.786)
of seminary. So through shout out, shout out Ted Trinity evangelical divinity school that doesn't exist anymore in Chicago. but yeah, 13 years.
exist anymore because he can't came everywhere everywhere
There were lots of remote sites. They were before their time. So yeah, my master's degree was through TEDs, but I remember comparing that as I was going through it to my undergrad degree. So I got my undergrad degree both in Bible and philosophy, but very ministry focused. But I wasn't doing ministry. So I got my education, I got my training, but I wasn't in it. And the 13 year plan,
Yeah they were!
Derek (59:51.904)
was because I was in it. Because you're in it, yeah. And so taking classes when you're in it is way different. And so it's that concept that go, like as people are in it, as your volunteers are in ministry, like when, as soon as they feel the pressure of like, crap, I don't know what to do, or I'm out of my depth, or how do I have that conversation, to be able to have ready training at that moment is way more effective.
yeah, the name
They remember it. They'll never forget it almost. so trying to figure out how do we build in those on time training opportunities as people hit those moments of, man, I need. And so my example is like as we've had people on our staff leading more and more of these trainings, it's like you ask them to do a training for our whole staff and they have this, no, where do I start? What do I do?
And then we followed that up with, we got the four of them in a room with me who does lots of trainings and goes, here's a simple template for how to prepare a And I could see the relief. Okay, okay, I've got something to work with. But now those people know, you know what I mean? But it was on time. we had front loaded that and took our whole staff through a how to lead a training, nobody would remember it. But when it's on time, when the pressure's on, I'm feeling the, now all of a sudden it's.
very meaningful. that's that's a little bit of a riff on the on time training when there's three other practices, the tool that will include willing will also include lots of detail.
Danielle (01:01:28.898)
That's really cool. Yeah, it'd be like if you taught a 12 year old driver's ed. What are we doing?
Yeah, exactly. Right. And four years from now when they need it, they'll have forgotten everything.
You're wasting time. Yeah, that's good. Okay, cool. All right, think that's it for today. If you like this episode, you can tell us by leaving a rating or review. The most important thing you can do is share it with somebody who you think might need it. And you can find detailed show notes and related resources over at DerekSanford.com forward slash reinventing church. That's where you can also subscribe to his weekly newsletter, get all the latest free tools and posts. Well, sweet dreams. All right. Thanks everybody.
Sweet dreams