096 | David Gluckman | That Sh*t Will Never Sell: Drinks Brands. From The Bottom-up (And Sometimes Not!)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

Join us on this episode of the Maffeo Drinks podcast, where Chris Maffeo chats with drinks industry legend David Gluckman about the fascinating world of drink innovation and product development.

David shares insights from his recent book (That Sh*t Will Never Sell), offering a look back at the history and evolution of the drinks industry.

The conversation covers iconic brands he created like Bailey's, Ciroc, and Tanqueray Ten, product ownership's importance, and consumer research's often flawed nature.

David also discusses how great brands can be built without conventional testing and the critical role of liquid excellence. Tune in for an engaging discussion that blends business acumen with the art of drink creation.

The discussion provides insights into the importance of ownership, consumer behavior, and the significance of product distinction in brand building. David also emphasizes the value of real-world testing over consumer research, reflecting on his approach to developing iconic spirits.

Aspiring brand builders and drink enthusiasts will find valuable lessons in this engaging conversation.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

00:29 Guest Introduction: David's Journey

01:19 The Bailey's Story: Market Research and Success

04:43 Brand Development Philosophy

09:36 Challenges in Spirits Marketing

12:38 Product Innovation and Differentiation

25:44 Ownership and Long-Term Brand Building

32:07 Conclusion and Farewell

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

David Gluckman

Creator | Baileys | Tanqueray 10

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia drinks
podcast where brands are built

bottom up.
I'm Chris Mafael and in each

episode me and a new guest crack
how drinks go from 1 bottle to 1

case to 1 pallet hit.
Follow and leave a review to

help new drinks builders find
it.

Now let's break it down
together.

Hi David, welcome to the Mafia
Drinks podcast.

Thank you, delighted to be here.
It's a great honour to have you

such a personality in the drinks
world, innovation and product

development.
I just finished reading your

book on my flights this month.
It's fascinating to hear the

stories, especially from
previous generations of drinks

industry because we tend to
think of the drinks industry as

it is today.
But to read and listen to all

the stories you have been
through, it's a fantastic

privilege.
Thanks very much.

I mean, I think we sometimes the
failures were more interesting

than the successes.
All have lessons and stories to

tell.
I enjoyed writing his.

That's fantastic, David.
Thanks for sharing your

knowledge with us today.
Let's start.

A most famous story from you is
obviously Bailey's.

So I guess we need to start from
that one.

Sure.
So when I was reading your book,

I was taking notes.
People on the plane were

thinking I was crazy because I
was book on one hand and

notebook on the other.
And reading or listening to the

your recent episode with Philip
Duff was interesting.

The story about the market
research you did when you

started with Bailey's, when you
created the the recipe and

wanted to test it in the market
before selling it.

Management.
I remember all the listeners

know my A version for consumer
research.

I like to test things on the
ground for real, not really

doing desk research and focus
groups.

But there was this story that
someone was naming is a girl's

drink and calling it names.
And then in the end, in the

first trial in a bar, you
realize that the first people

who actually drank it where two
policemen when they finished

their shift.
So can you, can you tell us that

story?
I think it's very fascinating to

start 2.
Things We were fairly new to the

job.
We'd been in it for a couple of

years and at that stage, which
was the early 1970s, market

research was a fairly new
phenomenon.

I knew very little about it.
We thought we'd do some focus

groups because that's what
people said you should do.

I suddenly realised what a
flawed system it was.

One macho guy in a focus group
stood up and said this is a

girl's drink.
I wouldn't drink this in front

of my friends.
And once you make a remark like

that, everybody agrees with you.
But then we looked at the

glasses and they were all empty.
People obviously liked the

product but weren't prepared to
admit to that.

And likewise, we got negative
comments in women's groups.

I think they both point out
flaws in like, research.

We thought let's get some hard
data, let's stick bottles in a

pub and see what happens.
And I kept going back to this

pub and the bottle just stayed
there gathering dust.

And then just the night before
we went to Dublin and I went

again and 1 bottle had
disappeared.

And I don't think the policeman
thing says it was acceptable as

a male drink.
I think it's just a lucky happy

accident.
But that persuaded me.

That said, Showtime, we've got
something here with the

agreements of my client.
He was quite adventurous.

We decided not to show the
research report.

I think it's barely used in
Ireland anyway.

Margaret Research.
It was a bit of cheap, but I

think it created the foundation
for everything I ever did after

that.
I really loved reading when you

showed the results of that
research.

You know, if I remember I was
like at the 10 year anniversary

party, you know, Bailey's had
sold already 4,000,000 cases.

Just that year, yes.
Yeah, and and it was like

unreal.
Now when you like.

So what?
What what was their expression

on that one?
See their faith.

People thought it was very
funny.

I was thinking about your
philosophy of bottom up brand

development and I think Bailey's
burger mould in the sense that

Bailey's grew up in
supermarkets, not in bars.

That was quite a rare thing.
I think perhaps there are two

categories where supermarket
development provided the basis.

Drinks like Bailey's.
Bailey's were built on tasting.

You'd put it in the supermarket
and you'd have people give their

tastings and something like 40%
of people who tried it bought

it, which was phenomenal.
You'd never get that with the

Spirit brand.
If you could do that with wine

brands like Blue Nun.
Wine was new to people with Blue

Nun, and if you tasted Blue Nun
in the supermarket and you

didn't know much about wine, you
might be converted quickly.

With spirits, it would be
difficult to do tastings of malt

whiskey in the supermarket and
expect it to work or some new

category for it like tequila in
the UK.

The amount of money you expect
to pay for it is also

substantial.
Bailey's is relatively cheap

compared to whiskey.
Yeah, as a price point, let me

ask you a question.
Let, don't we go back to product

development now that you're
bringing up supermarkets, there

is this, I think I heard this
from when you were speaking with

Philip Duff, the challenging bit
like staying on the bottom up

thing of regular FMCG mindset
where it's like building

distribution, doing advertising
and let's see the result versus

this spirits brand building,
which is ultimately a slow

moving category.
What's your take on that?

I think that's up to you.
I mean, could you imagine?

All done going into supermarkets
and making a quick conversion.

It's a product you have to
learn.

It's a product you have to see
other people drinking in order

to adopt it.
So that's where this bottom up

theory, which I agree totally.
I'm a great believer in the old

fashioned operators in the
drinks business, people like Abe

Rosenberg who built J&B in New
York.

You know, a whiskey with an
Italian name with a terrible

pack designed with this terrible
yellow that looked as if it had

already been watered down and
yet he made it to the biggest

selling Scotch whiskey in
America.

Likewise, Sidney Frank building
brands like Grey Goose and

Jägermeister of geniuses.
These guys were.

I think what happened in the
business is that there was a

movement from FMCG into the
alcoholic beverage business.

The old fashioned guys became
discredited as unscientific, but

I think they understood the
science better than the FMCG

guys.
They understood the way the

market worked and I think it
still works like that today.

They have been infusions of mega
success in a short time through

influencers like Diddy and
George Clooney.

These people have tremendous
currency behind them, but

whether they have the currency
to sustain the brand over time

is another question.
And this is a fantastic point

because I wanted to get to that
old school people like Abby

Rosenberg and Sydney Frank.
I really feel there has been

this movement of FMCG people in
the drinks world.

So all of a sudden the movement
has shifted to easy volumes,

quick volumes in off trade at
the discredit of the on trade,

which is ultimately where you
used to build those brands.

And I'm assuming now because I
wasn't there, but probably like

seventies, 80s, it was still an
industry ruled by hands on

people.
If you looked at one of my

heroes, the late Michel Roux,
associated with two fantastic

successes, Absolute and Bombay
Sapphire.

Sapphire was incredible.
He worked on it for 10 years and

they sold it to Bacardi for
$1.94 billion.

Not a bad return on 10 years
effort.

I'll bet he did hardly any focus
group.

He probably went with one basic
idea in his head and that became

the brand I love that kind of
brilliant.

What do you think about if we go
back to the Sydney Frank that

I'm familiar with on
Jägermeister, there is a focus

on a clear drinking occasion.
There is this focus on let's own

that occasion.
Was there something similar like

that on JB Success back in days
I.

Think Dave Rosenberg builds it
in certain types of outlets.

You know where you get a girl to
come and sit at the table, ask

her what she'd like to drink and
she says champagne?

In this case it was J&B and he
persuaded people if they were

invited to a table, I think they
were on the West side of New

York and he built it from there.
I love J and BI, think it's a

fantastic brand.
I tried to develop 2 variants

which is in my book. 1 was
called Jet and the other was

called Sub Zero.
I just like that approach.

I read the story of how they
built Absolute in the US.

Again, fantastic piece of on
premise the magic.

Yeah, I remember when I joined
SAB Miller, the very first

meeting I had was it was a
gentleman that, but he was an ex

Hennessy guy.
He made a speech and I still

remember every single thing of
that speech because then it was

recording and we were handed
over CDs.

With the actual speech, it was a
45 minutes on my drive to the

brewery every morning.
I used to play it.

At some point I knew it by
heart.

One of the things he was saying,
he was actually talking about

absolute vodka was about
pricing.

The issue with a lot of these
brands that you know, reach

scale but then at some point
fade away is also the fact that

as a consumer your buying power
increases.

So at some point if you are a
loyal absolute consumer,

absolute becomes too affordable
for you because you start to see

it in promotion.
You started seeing and you know,

in corner shops, you start to
see it everywhere and you start

to look for something better.
And that's where the game of

Grey Goose, Chirok and Belvedere
starts to come into play.

Is connected to what we were
saying about the off trade scale

and distribution, because the
scale that comes from

supermarkets and scale bottle
shop is usually at the expense

of profitability and pricing.
At some point the price goes

down and you become the maker of
your own issue because then

people in bars, they want to be
seen any more drinking that

champagne or whiskey exclusive
bottle because it's not

exclusive anymore.
The moment you make it mass, I

need to be seen with another
brand in my hands.

That's the beauty of
competition, what you try to do

is come up with something
better.

I loved working in mainstream
spirits because it was such a

challenge.
How do you come up with a new

vodka?
Vodka is colourless, odourless,

flavourless and so how do you
come up with something new?

I think I did it twice and much
to my disappointment, nobody

ever used the product.
Story set myself to disciplines.

The first one was a sales guy
going into a bartender saying I

want you to take this product.
The bartender says why?

I've got six other products like
that on my shelf.

Why do I need #7 I would then
say here's the reason why you

need #7 that was the first
discipline.

The second discipline was guy
sitting next to you at the bar.

You get chatting, he offers you
a drink and he says, what are

you drinking?
And you say, do you mind if I

have a tank or a 10?
So he says why that You should

be able to tell him why you
wanted the tank or A10.

In both cases, the marketing
people and the advertising

people seemed to be uninterested
in the product point of

difference.
In the case of Tabro 10, for

example, when we lost sapphire
through mergers and

acquisitions, when the AG O was
formed, we had to get rid of

sapphire painful $1.94 billion.
We had a brief to come up with

something to compete in that
sector.

We try to come up with a sexy
pact and respectable brand name,

but I thought, let's go further.
Vodka is 20 times bigger than

gin and I remember reading stuff
by vodka drinkers who said the

reason we reject gin is because
it has that bitter, dirty taste

which you get with juniper.
So I said, why don't we produce

a gin to appeal to vodka
drinkers?

There's a hell of a lot more of
them, so therefore you need a

much smaller share.
How do you do that?

You take out The Dirty taste and
put something back in.

We made it with fresh botanicals
and fresh fruit and we gave it

of of sweeter, fruitier taste.
And here was a gin for vodka

drinkers.
So what do the ads say for Tank?

Great tan at the moment.
Stanley Tucci, Drexel, he's a

lovely guy, but you could put
Stanley Tucci alongside any

product category from collars,
the wrist watchers and it'll all

be the same.
People would think he's that,

but nobody says it's the gin for
vodka directors.

This is a different bladiver in
gin and this 20 years ago I came

up with the idea and they've
never used it with Database.

And the other one which pisses
me off even more, I think is

Syrah, because we were given a
brief to come up with a

competitor to Grey Goose.
My feeling is you should always

come up with a product that's
different.

How do you do it with vodka?
I remembered we went to Tbilisi

in Georgia in the 1990s.
I was talking to a guy and I

said, did you ever drink vodka
in Georgia?

And he said sure.
And I said, well, what did you

make it of?
So he said grapes.

I thought what a fantastic idea.
Took that back to Georgia, but

they weren't interested.
But I brought this out for Ciroc

and I looked at all he had did
he used for Ciroc and they were

all about him.
Nobody ever mentioned grape, the

world's precious Venus tasting
vodka made of pure white grapes,

which I would have sourced in
California, not in France.

There's a story in my book about
why I hate Ciroc.

It hasn't got so much to do with
Diddy's downfall, but more to do

with the fact that they never
use the real point of

difference.
You know 2 vodka guys in a bar

and one guy orders to rock or
whatever it would be called and

he says why are you ordering
that?

Oh it's great vodka.
You ever tried great vodka?

Wonderful clean fresh tape.
The good story to the bartender

and to the consumer.
Yes, love what you're saying

because one of the questions
that I used to ask a lot, I've

stopped asking it was that's the
stuff from the liquid or from

the brand personally.
Everybody knows I'm a very

liquid driven person.
It's funny because we agree on

so many things that we spoke
twice.

For me, it's crucial in the
selling story because that's

exactly what you should talk
about.

That goes back to my point about
consumer research.

If you do consumer research,
what do you expect?

9 out of 10 people to like your
product?

But I think that means your
product's very average.

Do you actually want one person
out of 10 to be fanatical about

your product?
But nobody will go to market

with A1 in 10 preference.
Things like espresso martini,

for example, didn't start in
focus groups.

Some guy just had the brilliant
idea of putting them together

and it called on.
Goes back to your theory.

I'm stressing this point often
that we tend to look at these

huge categories, but you still
need to sell the first bottle,

the first case, the first pallet
you're, you are many years ahead

of worrying about how big the
category is.

Your previous example on the
vodka category being much bigger

than the gene category was
another kind of aspect because

it was big company challenge.
But when you are a founder of a

small brand, what are you
worrying about, the vodka

category or the gene category?
When you actually should do

something that is really, as you
said, one person that is out of

10, that is really fanatical
about your taste profile and be

able to explain it, be able to
amplify that story so they can

say it in a dinner sitting next
to a guy or a girl at the bar.

Because I, I remember what you
were saying with Philip.

Now that you were saying, I
don't want to be able to say

because I like it.
Why do you order that one?

Because I like it.
It's a stupid answer.

Not an answer at all.
And I think I got that from my

early advertising background
working for companies like

Procter and Gamble to give a
reason why one cleaners better

than another and why not apply
that.

That's the best of FMCG goes
down to the foundation of the

product.
I think if you're an innovator,

you remember things that people
tell you or you remember things

that PUC, see Rock came from a
conversation in Tbilisi in 1995,

You bring that sort of thing
out.

So I think to me there are two
elements in brands, one I have

no respect for and the other I
have enormous respect for.

Well, I don't have no respect
for.

If you look at the latest
version of Tanqueray 10 on the

front of the bottle after the
word Tanqueray, the most

prominent words to read are
batch distilled and handcrafted.

And people use it all the time.
Distilled 8 times?

Who cares?
Who knows, It doesn't mean it's

meaningless.
Maybe something distilled once

is better than something
distilled 20 times.

And and the other side of the
coin is benefit.

What does it do for you?
What does it taste like?

I've looked at the website for
ketos and buried in the copy is

a line so smooth you can drink
it straight.

That's a benefit.
That's not a process.

Nobody cares how it got to be
smooth, they only care that it

is.
And that becomes a thing I.

Remember a fantastic ad from
from Apple when they launched

the iPod and everybody we're
focusing on is it 4 gigabyte, 10

GB, 20 gigabytes, you know, and
they were saying 1000 songs in

your pockets.
That's what I want to know.

No, that's fantastic.
Oh, that's the old fashioned

principles, the thing.
And if we go back to my earlier

example of the the guy sitting
next to you at the bar buys you

a drink tank rate 10, you say,
Oh, why are you having that?

Because it's hand crafted or
because it's bashed?

It's silver.
What bullshit is that?

You know that's not a reason a
salesman goes into a bartender

and says, look, I know you've
got 10 gins, but take #11

because it's batch to seal.
Now, I know if you're Diageo,

he'll take it.
But if you're a small operator

trying to find your way into the
marketplace, batch to seal

doesn't cut it.
He'll throw you out.

He'll he won't know what you're
talking about.

I'm coming from beer now.
Beer is all about rotation

because there is a shelf life,
you know, and when I started

working with spirits brands, I
know that, you know, sales

people were really focusing on
the distribution side of things

rather than on the rotation
because what gets measured is

the bottle on the back bar.
So as a sales guy, I can go in

and your fantastic restaurant.
Can you please put the number 10

bottle and #11 bottle on the
back bar And you would do it.

Maybe you know, maybe you for,
for free to taste it or it's a

that's an investment.
It's made of €80 kind of

investment for you.
But it will close on the shed.

While with beer, you know, if
I'm blocking a tap and maybe

you've got 3 or 4 taps, then all
of a sudden it's a rotate.

First of all, you have to throw
away the beer, you know, it is

not, it doesn't stay there for
10 years, it's rotten and you

have to throw it away.
And 2nd, like the next time I

come in to do a bar, it's like
don't, don't sell me that thing

because nobody buys it, you
know?

So the reason mindset needs to
change within the spirits

industry on really how to
forward selling the second

bottle of that brand, not the
first bottle of that brands

like.
So yeah, no, you're absolutely

right.
What would you like to drink?

I like that cocktail, but it's
with gin.

And then maybe can have a
conversation, say, oh, but you

know, we make it with this gin
that it's actually very fruity

and very mild on botanicals and
on juniper.

So you if you like vodka, you
would like a drink with this

gin.
Exactly, giving the bartenders a

reason to recommend it, which
makes a difference.

I wrote something on LinkedIn
and I said liquid versatility is

the kiss of death.
Brand owners and salespeople

say, oh, you can do anything
with this brand.

The liquid is so versatile that
you can make any drink with

this.
Tell me the characteristics and

then I'll tell you what I can do
with it.

But you know, be clear on what
you want it to be.

I mean, is this good on a gin
and tonic?

Is this good on a martini?
And another example, Hendrix,

the reason why there is the
cucumber in the serve of the gin

and tonic is because there is
cucumber in the gene recipe.

You know, it's not that they
made-up.

Oh, I love cucumber.
Let's use cucumber just because

it's fun, you know, So you see a
lot of gene brands trying to

steal from Hendrix the cucumber.
You have no connection with this

cucumber.
Why are you using it?

You have to be brave.
You have to accept that you can

build a business where maybe two
people under 10 are motivated by

that.
They will become your pioneers.

They will become your champions
and other people will see them

ordering it and say what the
hell is that in the gym and it's

a piece of cucumber and that's
how.

But things build like that.
They don't don't like that.

And I think that understanding
is your philosophy and I think

it's mine too, although I don't
have your experience.

I'd create the brand and other
people make it happen.

But that's the crucial thing
because if there is an

understanding and an agreement
and an alignment between two

people like us, that's where
brands succeed.

Because you haven't invented it
in an ivory tower.

You know you have invented it,
but you have already made it bar

proof and bartenders proof.
How would the one going back to

this ownership thing, I think
but probably 51% of the reason

why Bailey's was successful.
But the guy who bought the idea

was a man called David Dan, who
was the managing director of

Gilbey's of Ireland, whose brand
it became.

And he was a fanatical owner of
the brand.

Not a day would, not an hour
would pass.

But he wasn't trying to sell
Bailey's to somebody else.

I think this concept of
ownerships, you know,

undervalued the business.
It's everyone's looking for kind

of general consumer preference,
but that.

But I remember there was a brand
of whiskey that felt about

200,000 cases a year in America.
And I'm told that 90% of this

volume was in Northern
California.

But I suspect that the reason it
was so successful was there was

one guy in Northern California
who took ownership of the brand

and made it successful.
And I think ownership's very

important, particularly in
categories like hard spirits,

you know, which are a long haul,
slow build categories.

How many products don't succeed
not because the product had some

fault, but just because
essentially either they were not

they didn't believe in it or
politically they were pushing

another brand or somebody didn't
buy the idea.

Because the issue very often
with these things, with

generational changes within
companies, is that knowledge get

lost and then you make up your
own stories of what it was now.

And this is the reason why I
love you writing a book about it

that stays on paper, not just
talking about rumours and stuff

that I heard in the corridors
times.

Sometimes what happens is that
people assume they know and they

create something and discard
opportunities.

Just don't like David.
I like Chris.

I don't like Chris, you know,
and I like his idea or I don't

like his ideas.
Rather than actually like being

really focusing on on what
matters.

Let me ask you this question
about one of the things that you

were mentioning in the book.
You know, you, you just like

I'm, and I'm reading now, like
people don't know what they

like, but they like what they
know well.

That's a that's a condemnation
of market research, which says

that if you give people
something that they know about,

then they're going to say they
like it, but it doesn't take you

any further down.
That's the line on the front of

my book, which says from the men
who solved the world where they

didn't know they wanted again
and again.

And I think that's the essence
of what we've been talking

about.
Develop things that people don't

know they want.
They don't go and ask people

whether they want a piece of
lime in your beer.

In the words of the old Nike
commercial, just do it.

And the way we operated was very
simple.

We never tested alternatives,
Never.

So therefore we saved probably
20,000,000 lbs.

During the course of my years at
Diageo YDV, we never tested 1

liquid against another.
We said to the liquid people,

give us the best cream liqueur,
gin, wow to this strategy that

you could produce.
And we went with that.

And because we didn't spend huge
amounts of money researching, we

saved a fortune.
If I go back to my own

experience, for example, the
Spider Metalian, I started

working professionally in
Scandinavian in the northeast of

Finland, Weed and Denmark, and
they were all more or less dark

markets.
And I always had very little

money in what would be AMP, you
know, advertising promotion of

back then we were calling it
marketing budgets.

So there was the biggest strike
of luck for me that I'd never

had the money.
And if you don't have the money,

you don't dream about spending
them on useless stuff.

You know, which I consider
certain researches to be like,

because the moment you spend 50
grand, 100 grand on a research

and then your budget is 300
grand, you know, you have burned

1/6, half, 1/3, whatever that
would be depending on the budget

and, and the research.
And then what do we do with

that?
Do we wait one year to be able

to have another budget to be
able to spend it?

I think this is driven by the
new age of analytics now with

especially with social media and
so on.

Now this AB testing and let's
try AB testing on this web page.

Let's try AB, let's try this and
that.

And then at some point it's just
like totally useless.

So at some point, you to take
you need, you need to trust your

gut.
You're never sure you have to

trust your professionalism.
You know, if you're in the

business, you'll pay to come up
with decisions.

I mean, we solved one of the
research cost issues very

simply.
I did it and I have a low

threshold of boredom.
So whereas the research company

might suggest 8 focus groups, I
got bored after 2.

So we never did more than two
focus groups on anything because

it was a waste of it was a waste
of money.

And you know, it was all of
diminishing returns sets in

quite early on.
But I think one of the reasons

we didn't engage marketing
people in the process of brand

development because not letting
people overthink everything.

So therefore they say, well why
call it Bailey's?

It's not typically Irish.
And so you test 6 names and

consumers bring it down to the
lowest common denominator and

that's what you go with.
We went to the best judgement of

a home order, people who knew
the business.

Let's wrap up with the last
piece of advice on the long term

brand building.
The fact that it's not really

like an FMCG game.
The spirits industry is not

really like a fast moving.
The majority of people I speak

to tend to rush it.
You know they want to make

millions very fast.
What would be your?

Advice.
Well, my recommendations would

be to think about the God, the
ball sitting next to you who

buys you a drink and ask you why
you have that drink.

Think of a good plausible
answer, which is not because

it's been disill 25 times or
handcrafted because he won't

understand that.
And likewise with the bartender

is this ownership?
The more people you can get to

feel that they own your brand.
And I'm not looking at getting

consensus on what the name
should be or the packaging

should be.
The more people you can persuade

that they own your brand, the
better.

And I think never forget the
product.

It's so, so important that you
achieve product.

Excellent.
And there's another thing that

Abe Rosenberg is alleged to have
said.

You know, the ritual of putting
a coffee bean into Sambuca

Romana and setting it to light.
And rumour has it that somebody

asked a why or when you should
blow out the flame.

And they've said when everyone
in the bar has seen it, which I

thought was, you know, if you
can get people talking about

your brand for one reason or
another.

And those rituals like the lamb,
the lime in the in, in the net

are so important, you know,
finding ideas that is

distinctive and different.
But I hold the title of my book

to Abe because he, the Sir
Anthony Tennant, took a bottle

of Bailey's to New York in early
1975, just after launch.

And he gave it to Abe to try.
And they looked at the

labelling, which he said
reminded him of soldiers

uniforms in Vietnam, which is
not a very popular thing to say

at the time.
And when he tasted it, he looked

up and said that shit will never
sell.

And that's the title of my book.
David.

So let's let me give you some
space to let the listeners know

how they can find you, where
they can find your book that

shit will never sell, and how to
get in touch with you.

Well, they can get in touch with
me by emailing David at TSWN

s.net.
That's the initial bill.

That shit will never sell.
They can buy the book on any

online site either as a
hardback, A paperback or a

unique ebook.
I sat down to Rise at ebook age

82 and said how can I make it
more he than any other book it's

ever been.
So not only can you read it, but

you can watch it because there
are over 100 YouTube links on it

and you can listen to it.
Some of the most famous

commercials, wonderful
characters and my whole journey

traced in Phil.
So they're all available

worldwide now.
So please go out and buy it.

I'm sure you'll enjoy it.
I'm recommending it myself

because it was a a fantastic
read.

One of the key things global
giant company because IDV was a

big international company even
before the agile was full.

How a giant company can operate
like an agile start up and

operate successfully.
This is the most amazing

management I've ever come across
in my whole life.

Anyway, Chris, it's been an
absolute pleasure meeting you.

Thank you for giving me a forum
for my mad thinking.

It was a pleasure and mad
thinking is always welcome on

the Mafia Drinks podcast.
Thanks.

Thanks a lot, David.
It was a absolute honor.

Thank you.
Thanks for listening to the

Mafia Drinks podcast.
If you enjoyed it, please hit

the subscribe button.
Also a small ask.

Please leave a review wherever
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Feel free to contact me for

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Mafia or on Instagram at Mafia

Drinks or at mafiadrinks.com.
And remember that brands are

built bottom up.