Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Tell Me More is a weekly podcast hosted by Katy Reed Hodges and Luke Stehr, where they unpack the Sunday sermon with Dr. Dennis Wiles. This podcast is designed on the premise that Dr. Wiles always has more to say than can fit in a 35 minute sermon - so we have fun discussing it here each week. We hope that in listening you are educated, encouraged and more connected to the pastor and his teaching!
Welcome to Tell Me More. My name is Luke Stehr, and today, Dr. Wiles and I have a conversation about Psalm 122, what shalom is, and about the people of God and Jerusalem. And we hope it is a helpful conversation for you in this time. Well, we are here doing tell me more. My name is Luke Stehr.
Luke Stehr:We got Dr. Dennis Wiles today. We're missing Katy. She's taking the day off just to spend some
Luke Stehr:family time, and that's a great thing to do. Mhmm. And we're thankful for a church that gives us time off.
Luke Stehr:Mhmm. Yeah.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:She's had a crazy week though every night. She has. All through the weekend. Yeah. So
Luke Stehr:So it's a busy season in our church's life, ramping up for spring, new budget year, getting new committees in place. So if you aren't super familiar with our church, we had, you know, deacon ordination council last night, approved some new deacons that will ordain next week. But it's we're in the midst of budget development, committee selection, chairs rolling off, new chairs rolling on. So it's just a busy time in our church's life. So Katie is taking one of her vacation days and we are glad she is doing that.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Even though she has to be in a meeting tonight.
Luke Stehr:She does have to be in a meeting tonight. So All good. It is all good. So I took a day yesterday. You know?
Luke Stehr:It is what it is. I heard
Dr. Dennis Wiles:you had a great day yesterday.
Luke Stehr:It was a day. Cowtown marathon.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:I ran the Cowtown marathon. Ladies and gentlemen.
Luke Stehr:It's a good thing you didn't have to watch me try to sit down in this chair, and you will also not see me try to get up from this chair, because it is a process.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Do do you have one of those 26.2 stickers to go on the back of your vehicle?
Luke Stehr:You know, I I don't. Okay. Maybe I should get one.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:You just let your just that you did it do the timing.
Luke Stehr:I did wear my medal into the office building this morning. Okay. Cool. So Cool. It's in my office if you wanna see it.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Yeah. So it's not a participation medal though. It's a medal for finishing.
Luke Stehr:Finishing. I did not win. My grandmother asked me if I won or gotten the 1st place. My grandmother, I love her, does not know a lot about competitive running. But to win a marathon, in case you didn't know you did, running is basically your full time job.
Luke Stehr:Yeah. That's right. So It's crazy. I did not win.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:We believe you won, Luke. You're a winner to us. I got a medal. Just that you finished. Dude, seriously.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:So 26.2 miles. Okay.
Luke Stehr:But it was a good day at church yesterday. Just I watched the service. It's a sweet day. I love baptisms. I love getting to see baptisms.
Luke Stehr:So it's I love again that we have church that we live stream and people can come back and watch. Mhmm.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Sweet day.
Luke Stehr:It was a very sweet
Dr. Dennis Wiles:day yesterday, but a
Luke Stehr:sweet day. Of guests, new members joining our church, which is what we love to see. Mhmm. So good good day at church.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Yep. It was good. Sweet day. 2nd Sunday of Lent Easter season.
Luke Stehr:Yeah. And we are continuing to walk through the Psalms of Ascent. We are. As we move through this season of Lent into Easter.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And
Luke Stehr:you preached on Psalm 122 yesterday. I did. And so The 3rd Psalm of ascent. The 3rd Psalm of ascent.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:The Psalm of David.
Luke Stehr:K. How do we know that it's a Psalm of David? Just in case, you know, someone doesn't know, kind of, what's happening in the Psalms. How do we know what do we look for when we're determining who wrote a Psalm?
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Well, that is a great question. I meant to tell you, we're now sponsored by Perrier Line. I don't know if we're supposed to announce it or not. I mean, actually, I'm just drinking that today. But,
Luke Stehr:I was watching If they want to sponsor us
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Yeah. Sure.
Luke Stehr:By all means, Perrier.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:I was watching Matt Homar's podcast last week, and and he has a taco company every week that provides tacos.
Luke Stehr:Called Tacos al Pastor Yeah. Which is a great pun. Yeah.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:I know. But, we're not gonna be sponsored by tacos. So, for those of you who don't know, I don't eat Mexican food. So that will not be any will be will not be a potential sponsor for us. But, you know, what's interesting about the Psalms when you look at the Psalms, the ancient texts the most ancient texts we have of the Psalms include the little pre scripts, which is quite fascinating to me.
Luke Stehr:Yeah. In Hebrew, that's verse 1.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Yeah. So in other words, when we like, when I look at my NIV translation, in italics under Psalm 122, it says, a song of ascents of David. Well, that's a pre script or a notation, whatever. You know, sometimes it'll say a maskel or a song of Asaph or something like that. Right.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:But, those particular notes are actually in the original texts.
Luke Stehr:Yeah. I have my Hebrew text open. That is verse 1 in Hebrew. Yeah.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:So it's fascinating. So if you see that in your Bible, that's the that's the notation that the the collectors of the Psalms, which I do think David was probably one of the primary collectors, you know, of the Psalms, lets us know sometimes who the author is, what the setting was occasionally. So
Luke Stehr:Yeah. And sometimes it's ambiguous if it David wrote it or if it's dedicated to David because in Hebrew, it's ledavid, and that l participle means to, by, for, with. Mhmm. So it could be dedicated to David, written by David. Mhmm.
Luke Stehr:But a lot of times we credit authorship to David for those laddavid psalms.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And like this one in the NIV it just says of David. So, you know, we think David is the author here and it's the 3rd Psalm in the Psalm of the Cent. And it and it is, it's kind of an arrival psalm, as I shared yesterday. You know, you're on the journey to Jerusalem. Here's one of those you would read as you made your way into the city.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:You know, your gates, your feet are inside the gates, the text says. And and, of course, David has written this one. So David I mean, you can look at David 1 of, I mean, 2 different ways. On the one hand, David was at times a pilgrim to Jerusalem. I mean, he did make his way there, but then eventually he's gonna live there and this is gonna be known as his city, of course.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And when you go visit Jerusalem today, you know, there's kind of the ancient part of the city they still call the city of David, you know. So, you know, this was his home. This is where he chose to to live. And, of course, Solomon's gonna build the palace there. They're gonna build the temple there.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And so it it it was a very special city to him. But this to me is the psalm of of celebration. You know, we've arrived. We're in Jerusalem and and and David brags on the city. It's almost like when you get to, verse 3, I guess it is.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:He says this Jerusalem is built like a city closely compacted together. I think most of us read that with the sense that David is saying, this is a real city. You know, this is not just some rural village, you know, like our fishing village like Bethsaida or Capernaum or Nazareth. You know, those were those were villages. This is all old in.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Yeah. This is fortified, sure enough, bona fide city, you know, and it's it's got all the things you would think of in the ancient world that go with a city. And this is where the tribes come to worship. David says this is where the throne is. So, you know, it's a celebration really of the uniqueness, the beauty of Jerusalem.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And as I as I said yesterday in my sermon, I don't know how to it's hard to compare it to a city in our culture.
Luke Stehr:Yeah. You talked about how it's the spiritual heartbeat of Israel.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:It is.
Luke Stehr:And we don't
Dr. Dennis Wiles:we don't really have that. I mean, I know that Alabama is thought of as kind of one of the central core, you know, geographical regions in the nation, rich in resources, produces a lot of incredible scholarships from all over the world. A lot of things are invented in Alabama, but, but it's still not Jerusalem, though. Right? People don't make many spiritual pilgrimages there unless you're from there.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:But, but no, we just don't have anything like that in our psyche because we don't, you know, we don't have that kind of geographical connection, if you will, to to a sacred place. Now, I would say probably to most Christians today, Jerusalem would still be viewed that way a little bit. We refer to Israel as the Holy Land and so it still has that feel, if you will. Right. A little bit, if if I can say it respectfully, as being, a a place that is rich with spiritual meaning to the people of God.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Both Jew I would say Jew and Christian and Muslim. I mean
Luke Stehr:Yeah. There is Muslim meaning in that place.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:You go there today and, you know, you go to Temple Mountain. I mean, it's it's owned and operated by Muslims, you know. And so, you have a mosque up there, you know, and you have the Dome of the Rock is there. And so it is, it's a holy place, you know, for for Muslims. I think that's where they believe, Mohammed departs the world.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:So, of course, for the Jews, they believe, obviously, that's where the temple was. So that's the most sacred place in the world, particularly for orthodox Jews. And for Christians, the place where Jesus was crucified, you know, just outside from there. So
Luke Stehr:Yeah. And I think
Dr. Dennis Wiles:that's It's a city like no other, really.
Luke Stehr:It is. And that's something to be aware of too as you talked in your sermon. There's a there's you probably living in Arlington. There's a better chance you know a Muslim than you know a Jew. Yeah.
Luke Stehr:But it has special significance for the Muslims in our community. It
Dr. Dennis Wiles:just does. And it took on kind of a theological life of its own, so to speak, you know, in the imagination of Jewish theologians and their poetry. And, I mean just like right here, you know. And so, it's it's hard for us to to grasp that as a westerner and as someone who lives in the US because we don't have anything to compare it to. We just have Jerusalem, you know.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Right. So it still has a certain special place in its imagery as woven into eschatology, you know, about the New Jerusalem. So there's this whole connection with the city of Jerusalem and just with the idea of Jerusalem and the very presence of God on earth. You know, it's just, it's just a very special unique place. And, so like I said, I've been there.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And and, you know, as a Christian just visiting Jerusalem, I mean, yeah, I mean, it has a certain, it's it's just connected to our heritage as as Christians because this is where Jesus walked and taught. And, you know, where he was crucified, where he was resurrected. Right. You can't get more foundational to our story.
Luke Stehr:It's usually important.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Yeah. And so, anyway, so, yeah, I just wanted to I just wanted to highlight that for our people, Sunday morning that that and particularly in this era when this was written and when the Jews were going to the Jerusalem for these pilgrimages, there there was just nothing else like Jerusalem. It is the heartbeat really. Center is the centralizing city of, of their faith and naturally with the temple there. And then by the time of Jesus, you know, Herod decided, King Herod, that he wanted to, if I could say it respectfully, somewhat Romanize the temple.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:I mean, he wanted it to have the grandeur and the beauty, if you will, of ancient Rome. He had already done that to the port city of Caesarea, Maritime. So Caesarea dedicated to Caesar becomes this basically huge Roman city with, with a port that was built with Roman concrete and, you know, has a coliseum. I'm gonna say coliseum, more more an amphitheater rather, and, has a hippodrome, you know, for chariot racing. I mean, it it basically when you're if you're welcomed into Israel at the port of Caesarea, you would have thought you're arriving in just a massive Roman colony,
Luke Stehr:if you will.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:So Herod wanted the temple to have kind of that feel, and, he died before it was finished, but the temple was was basically accentuated in the kind of the garrisons around it and, you know, like when Jesus is in Jerusalem and he says something like, you know, one day this will no longer be standing. Well, they're they're sitting there looking at these workers putting these massive stones in place because it wasn't finished yet. It's a it's a construction project, biggest construction project in that part of the world. And, and they're looking at Jesus like, so you're sorry to say what now? You're talking about this?
Dr. Dennis Wiles:You're talking about this building? And of course, you know, they had no idea that the Romans would come in in AD, 70 and basically just destroy it completely. So and it's and it's been destroyed ever since. But, so it was it was just, Jerusalem had just such a role, if you will, in in the life of Israel that you just I don't think you could exaggerate it.
Luke Stehr:No. I don't think so. And so some other things that you talked about on Sunday, you mentioned that Jerusalem has its root, in the Hebrew word shalom. So that's the final kind of suffix of that word. It's shin, lamed, mem, or would be the Hebrew letters, which form the continental backing of shalom.
Luke Stehr:Right. So it's it's a city whose foundation is peace. And I think in English, when we talk about peace, it is ceasefire, which I recognize is a tricky word to use in context right now.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:It is today, isn't it?
Luke Stehr:But that's when we speak in English about what peace means. It is ceasefire. It's stopping conflict.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Right.
Luke Stehr:We even often talk about peace as we achieve peace through aggression or more conflict to get to peace. That's right. That's not what shalom is in scripture. And so
Dr. Dennis Wiles:I was
Luke Stehr:wondering if you could help expound on shalom, what it is, what it means. Mhmm. I have some quotes that I brought, but I wanted to pick your brain.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Well, I think that I think you're exactly right, Luke. We we tend to associate peace as as a circumstantial manifestation. You know, we we look at our lives, and if everything around us is okay, and there doesn't seem to be any massive struggle or challenge, well, then we're at peace, you know. Yeah. And you you kind of begin to associate peace with that external manifestation of your reality.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:When actually shalom is more of an internal word, you know, to me. It's more of an internal state of being. It's a manifestation of the presence and the blessing of God in your life. And so it's about flourishing and everything wholesome and the fact that that God has provided something for you. Now I will say this.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:I think that as you start thinking about messianic era peace like the prophets, I think I think the idea of shalom starts off as this internal manifestation, but they saw it as an all encompassing. Yeah. The age to come. You'll beat your
Luke Stehr:swords into plowshares and your spears into pruning hooks.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Lions laying down with lambs. Yeah. And and, so that whole idea of the manifestation of peace. But even at much deeper level than just the absence of conflict. It's basically restoring everything to God's will and God's plan.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:That's how I view shalom. It's it's like the plan and and the will of God on display in God's creation, you know? So it's all encompassing kind of thing. So
Luke Stehr:So if I if I could share a few quotes. Mhmm. Chris Watkins, who wrote a book called Biblical Critical Theory, if you like to read nice and heady stuff, I'd recommend it.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Even the title makes you nervous, right?
Luke Stehr:Yeah. But it's a great book. He defines Shalom as the webbing together of God, humans and creation in equity, fulfillment, and delight. Mhmm. So this is Mhmm.
Luke Stehr:Creation at its most edenic
Dr. Dennis Wiles:That's right.
Luke Stehr:Point of meaning and what it's supposed to be. Exactly. And then he talks about in this age to come, with the conflict we experience, that the world experiences, he says conflict is not the ultimate truth of the human condition. And there is a peace that is deeper than any violence.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Mhmm.
Luke Stehr:Though violence will continue to haunt all human societies in this age. Mhmm. So violence, conflicts are gonna be just part of what life it's all. Unfortunately. Unfortunately, in this age.
Luke Stehr:Mhmm. And so when we think about the internal shalom, I thought about your sermon made me think of Philippians 4. And Paul writes, do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition with thanksgiving, present your requests to God and the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, meaning it moves beyond even if your external reality is not peaceful. There's a peace that transcends that.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Correct.
Luke Stehr:The p which transcends all understanding will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Mhmm. And that is that's beautiful to me. And I think that connects to Jesus when He says my peace I give to you not as the world gives or when He says in this world you'll have tribulation, take care of overcome the world. I said I'm saying this to you so that you will know my peace can be with you, John 16:33.
Luke Stehr:And this is that Pax Christi, the peace of Christ you talk about as opposed to the Pax Romana, which is Which is complex power combination.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:I mean, yeah. Yeah. Rome's definition of peace will be a little different than our understanding of peace. And I think even the way Jesus accomplishes peace, you know, for the Romans it was just a full expression of power. And it's almost like the Romans even used religion, if you will, as a means of controlling the people, you know.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And so think about that, the temples they had were expressions of Roman power and all these authorities of all these gods, and it was a way that they they communicated a certain
Luke Stehr:Well, and you could worship whoever you wanted as long as you also worship Caesar.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:That's right. As long as you stayed in the Roman pantheon, you were good. And, so Jesus, it comes and offers just something so different than his kingdom is so different than that. And it's it's it's built upon the return to the Garden of Eden, so to speak, this journey back toward the shalom that God offered at the very beginning to humanity and the restoration of God's creation and the display of God's glory. And when all that's on display in Christ, so He creates a whole new temple, the people of God.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:You know, that's what Jesus does. He he he he, he offers us a replacement, if you will. That's how I view the cleansing of the temple, it's usually referred to. I I see Jesus basically saying the temple is no longer in effect. So his his actions in Jerusalem show us that that the temple's era of relevance ends with Him and now there's a new temple that's arising and it's built on Him, it's built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And we're now the temple of the Holy Spirit and it's alive, it's dynamic, and it is it's a manifestation of shalom. It's an expression of shalom. It should be an ambassador for shalom.
Luke Stehr:As God's people, we're called to be shalom bringers.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:That's right. So I love all of that and I love how Jesus leads us there. I think Paul captures that in his writings. I think, Peter does the same. So an imagery of us now being this new building, if you will, that's been constructed by Christ through His Spirit.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:It's just a beautiful picture and it connects because to me the foundation of all of this is in our Old Testament. Testament. I mean, that's where all the imagery comes from. It's just rooted deeply in the old testament, which, you know, without the old testament, we wouldn't understand that temple imagery, we wouldn't understand the priestly calling of Christ and our our role as priests. We wouldn't understand Him being the Son of David or the son of man.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:You know? So the the old testament is is kind of the school that we have to go to, if you will, to understand all this so that we can fully embrace the full expression of it in Christ. So it's just a beautiful thing to me. And I just love the I I like the fact that even many Jews today when they greet each other they will say shalom and it's an expression of a blessing. It's almost like the pronouncement of a hope, you know, for you.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:It's not just hello, you know, it's I'm hoping something for you, and and and I'm I'm expressing my desire for you to experience something really meaningful and powerful. And, my wife has used that for many, many years. And whenever she says goodbye, you know, she closes out an email, more often than not, it's closed out with shalom. And that's her wish for you, her blessing on your behalf, you know. So, yeah, it's shalom is a beautiful thing.
Luke Stehr:So Okay.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And we're supposed to pray for it, you know. What's interesting is in this text, and why would it surprise me? David says in verse 6, pray for the shalom of Jerusalem. Well, yeah. Jerusalem is at the heart of the community of Israel.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:It's the it's where the ultimate layman, I mean I would say the tabernacle, the house of God was already there during David's lifetime. His son, of course, will build the temple there and, and it will become the spiritual, theological, economic, political capital of Israel and David says, hey, pray for shalom. Yeah. Particularly in Jerusalem. Well, that that made perfect sense to me as, as the people of God praying for Jerusalem as that as they should.
Luke Stehr:Yeah. So as we think about how we come to understand Jerusalem and this age of conflict that we find ourselves in, and you briefly talked about this on Sunday, but I was wondering if you would want to get more into it. I'm sure people
Dr. Dennis Wiles:in our
Luke Stehr:church have questions. Mhmm. Is there a difference? And, again, we're about controversial, perhaps. Definitely controversial.
Luke Stehr:Is there a difference between Israel, the nation state
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Mhmm.
Luke Stehr:And Israel and scripture?
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Yeah. Right. Well sorry. Well, yes. Of course.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And, you know, I think probably what I would say, just preface it all, you know, when you when you look at the state of Israel today, I think most people will know this the the political entity today that we know is Israel, obviously was created by the Allied Powers at the end of World War II. And, so think about that era, think about what had happened, you know.
Luke Stehr:Yeah.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:I mean, the atrocities of World War 2, and the Holocaust. And, and so when Nazism is defeated by the Allied powers, which it it was it was just such a manifestation of evil, So the question I think for the allies was, okay, now what do we do? How do we rebuild Western society? Or what is this supposed to look like, if you will? And so, you know, they had to had to make some allowances.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:I mean, for example, you know, you you've got 2 primary allies, which sounds kind of remarkable today, Russia and the U. S. Now obviously Britain would have been our biggest ally, of course. But in terms of sheer numbers though of soldiers and somewhat of a hatred of Nazism would have been the Russians. So it's kind of fascinating that we were 2 giant allies in World War 2, you know.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And so, you can have Stalin and The world
Luke Stehr:has changed.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Roosevelt making a plan together, you know, on the phone with each other. So, yeah, it's just fascinating as it all changed. But a part of the of their decision was to somewhat divide the spoils, if you want to view it that way. So even down to the point of dividing the city of Berlin, which was a fascinating decision, if you think about it, You know, you take this massive city in Germany and say, okay, tell you what, from here eastward we're going to let the Russians have control. From here westward, the Americans will have control.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:What a what an interesting decision that turned out to be. And so they had a little wall right down the heart of the city, you know, to divide it. And I'm not I'm not sitting in judgment overall. I'm just saying it was just I look at it and think, wow, what an interesting decision, you know?
Luke Stehr:Right. That
Dr. Dennis Wiles:must have been, for them. Well then the question was what about this, you know, this land that's been disputed for so many centuries, in the Middle East? And the allies said, look at the look at what's happened to the Jews during this period of time. Yeah, in Europe. So we need to provide them with a homeland, a place where they can return to.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Now there were already Jews living in that part of the world, obviously, but still. And so they decided to
Luke Stehr:But post Ottoman Empire invasion, most of the Jews from that region had migrated into Europe.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:That's right. You probably could you probably could argue that maybe the most ancient connection in terms of just lineage of Jews might be even in Rome, to be honest with you, you know, because the Jews migrated to Rome so early, and they've been living there ever since the 1st century, so Rome might parallel Jerusalem or Israel with the, you know, the contention of who's got the longest lineage of of of a of a population of Jews living in in one region. But regardless, so the decision was made to reestablish the nation of Israel. So 1948, that takes place. Rome has had, speaking of Rome, had an interesting history with Jews as well.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:You know, the Roman Catholic church, unfortunately, at the height of its power during the well, really not the height of its power, I guess, but as it was reclaiming its power, that's a better way to put it, In kind of the post reformation era, in the mid 15 fifties or so, Pope Paul the 4th, I believe, he decided the the Jews are to be blamed for the crucifixion of Jesus. And so there'd been a population of Jews living in Rome for centuries, like I said, dating back to the 1st century. And so he decides to section them off and place them in a in a quarter, if you will, right next to the Tiber River, which was a terrible place in Rome at the time. They didn't have the embankments they have now. So the Tiber flowed overflowed all the time and it was dank and just just, you know, and no clean water and all that.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:So he basically forced all the Jews to move into that quarter. Then he had a, actually just a a fence, if you will, built around it, actually a wall. And so all the Jews in Rome had to live inside that community, if you will. And, just and then over time, they instituted so many terrible things. For example, eventually, every Sabbath, the Jews had to come stand at the gate.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:They and they couldn't leave. They had to come stand at the gate and, a a Roman Catholic priest would preach to them every Sabbath outside of one of the little churches that was just outside the wall there. And then every year, they had to petition the pope, could they still live in Rome, could they still stay there, so they had to go all the way to the Arch of Titus. And if you know anything about the Arch of Titus, it's at the upper end of the Roman Forum and it's dedicated to the general who destroyed the temple. It was Domitian's brother.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And inside the architectural frieze of the arch of Titus is the oldest artistic depiction of the menorah, dates back to AD 80, and it shows Titus in his chariot coming back to Rome and with all these Jewish slaves and they're carrying the artifacts from the temple and they're carrying the menorah. So it it is an arch dedicated to the destruction of Judea, if you will. Yeah. So the pope in the 1500, 1600, 1700, 1800s would require the leader of the Jews to come to the Arch of Titus, request permission to live in Rome again, pay a tax to live in Rome. He would then be turned around and, one of the officials, sometimes be the pope, somebody somebody designated, would kick the man in the rear end, knock him down on the ground, and basically give them a blessing to live one more year in the Jewish quarter.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:I mean, think
Luke Stehr:this is a people group with a long history of persecution Correct. After the New Testament ends. Yes.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Just just you look at it and you think, what?
Luke Stehr:All over Europe, anti Semitism is rampant. Absolutely. Just pervasive.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And horrific. Yes. And so so again, you think about, I mean, the atrocities experienced there. And so, you know, once Italy becomes a nation, you know, 18/70 and, you know, Victor Emmanuel becomes the first king of Italy, well, he just does away with all that. He has the walls, the gates opened and tells the Jews you live anywhere you want to in Rome.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:You're Roman citizens. You've been here longer than most of these Romans have been, you know, so it finally ends in 1970. But that anti Semitic spirit was still prevalent in parts of Europe. So anyway, so 1948, actually the Jewish community in Rome had a celebration at the arch of Titus. Once the once the state of Israel was established, they all gathered at the arch of Titus and they marched backwards through it.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Mhmm. You know? And and the imagery is was for them, ancient Rome now lies in ruins. You know, here's the Roman Forum. And, and Rome no longer has has power over us, if you will.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:So, so once they were granted that status and then Israel became a secular state, which is what Israel is today. The nation of Israel is a secular state.
Luke Stehr:It is a Yeah. It's not a bureaucracy.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:No. It's a political entity. And, and and I'm I'm very friendly toward it. It's our greatest ally as Americans in the in that part of the world. And so we have a lot of, affinity for Israel, the state of Israel today.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And, they are our partner in things like democracy and democratic ideas and human flourishing and all kinds of things that were connected to Israel. And one of the challenges that the state of Israel has today is it is surrounded by enemies. And so that that puts the nation of Israel today and the people of Israel today in in a very, somewhat of a vulnerable position in my opinion. Because if you think about it, many of the nations around them, it's their intent to destroy them. And and that's a daily, reality.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:I can't imagine what that must feel like if you wake up every day just because you are a certain ethnicity and you live in a certain geographical spot. Pretty much everybody around you wants to destroy you. That's a reality that's so foreign
Luke Stehr:to us.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:I mean, if we woke up every day and and all of Mexico and all of Canada had declared war on us and was attacking us, you know what I mean? And but even that wouldn't work because we're so big, you know? But Yeah. So I can't even imagine what the just the the psyche of a modern Israeli Jew must be like, you know, when you live in that kind of tense environment.
Luke Stehr:And have for generations.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Yes. And and there's so much blood in the ground. So my heart goes out to them, the suffering. There's not an anti Semitic bone in my body. I'm I'm so grateful for the fact that that homeland was provided because I think that was the right thing to do.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:But as you know, Luke, it's created so many complexities because you had people living in that land who had been there for generations, you know, who weren't Jewish Right. Ethnically. And so they had to somehow be resettled. They had to figure all that out. It was, you know, it was, there's no easy way to do that.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And, so that's created tensions that still exist in there.
Luke Stehr:And it's important to remember too that those people living in the land, a decent number of them were Christians
Dr. Dennis Wiles:who
Luke Stehr:come out of the earliest wings of the Christian church.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Right. So you have a lot of Palestinian Christians. So it's just a it's just one of the most complicated places in the world. So with all of that said and his great appreciation that I have for the nation of Israel, the secular state of Israel, understanding all the connections we have to them as allies, all that's given to me. But if you wanna talk about Israel in the Old Testament and the people of God in the Old Testament, the descendants of Abraham as they're treated in the Old Testament, That's a different conversation than the secular state of Israel.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Yeah. You know, those those are 2 different entities.
Luke Stehr:Yeah. I mean, I even think about the original promise to Abraham to Abram, which is through you all the families of the earth will be blessed. That's exactly right.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And so it's a constant calling that you find in the scripture beyond Israel, beyond the borders of Israel.
Luke Stehr:The prophetic vision of all family all peoples of the earth
Dr. Dennis Wiles:will come
Luke Stehr:in the mountain of God and the law will be written on their hearts.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:That's right. Even God God even says, my house will be a house of prayer for all the nations. Yeah. For for all the people.
Luke Stehr:So And we think that's a new testament vision. Yeah. But it kicks off with Abraham.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:It's in the old testament. It is. It's God's plan. So it's it's like God's God focuses attention on Abraham or Abram originally, and then Abraham, and then all of a sudden through Abraham, the attention goes like this, it goes out to the entire world. And so the message and the hope of of God for the world is through the Jews.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And so Exodus 19, you will be a kingdom of priests, you will be a holy nation, you are going to represent Me to the whole world. So there was this calling, this missionary calling that the the the unfortunately that Israel in the Old Testament never fully lived into. And, but the promise of a new day coming when the Messiah would come and that Messiah was gonna be the one who bring all of that. He was He is the Messiah to the Jewish people, but He is also the Savior of the world, right? And so when Jesus comes, well then that vision really expands in a powerful way.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And Jesus says, you're going to take me, be my witness So, this is beyond when Jesus says you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in Judea, okay, so we're in Israel, in Samaria, we're still in Israel.
Luke Stehr:Despicable, but still in Israel.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:We're still there to the ends of the earth. So, the calling of Jesus for His followers is beyond the territory of Israel, the the the geographical location of Israel. And so when I said Sunday morning, I'm mom as I'm a new covenant theologian and I'm not territorial in my theology or in my eschatology. That's what I was trying to tell you.
Luke Stehr:Eschatology being study of last things.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:That's right. Where we're all headed. Where is this thing going? Yeah. And so, you know, you have several views of that today.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:But my understanding of the New Testament is is that the promises of the land and all of that have already been fulfilled for Israel, under the old covenant. Is how I would view it. And then when I come to pass just like like 2nd Corinthians 1 where Paul says all the promises of God are now yes in Christ. Okay? So just just think about that for a second.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:All the promises of God are now yes in Christ. That's 2nd Corinthians 1. Okay? I got it. Okay?
Dr. Dennis Wiles:I'm I'm gonna take that and go with it. You know, I believe that's what I believe the Bible teaches. And so my understanding of the land and those promises to the land have already been fulfilled under the old covenant have nothing to do with the new covenant. The new covenant to me is not land focused, it's not territorial. It's about the prevailing message of the gospel to all the peoples of the world.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And so the land of Israel today, the nation of Israel today, the city of Jerusalem today for me does not factor into my eschatology. It's there for its imagery.
Luke Stehr:It's not the new Jerusalem
Dr. Dennis Wiles:for you. No. The new Jerusalem is the new kingdom of God. Yeah. You know?
Dr. Dennis Wiles:It's it's just a pervasive expression of the ultimate conquering of all that is.
Luke Stehr:Right. And to bolster that point, when we think about the new Babylon in Revelation, we aren't thinking of a literal Babylon located somewhere in Iraq. That's right. We symbolize that. That's
Dr. Dennis Wiles:right. That's the enemy.
Luke Stehr:So apply that same hermeneutical lens to the way that Jerusalem gets talked about in Revelation. It's not a literal geographic place.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Exactly. Now realize that you know, that the one of the challenges we have in American evangelicalism today is that there was a certain theological hermeneutic that was introduced to the US that that just fit well for whatever reason into the US conservative
Luke Stehr:Into the culture.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Psyche. You know? And it's it's the it's what's known by theologians as dispensationalism. And the idea that that that there have been several dispensations, if you will, and God has worked in each one of those dispensations of time. Right.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And he's worked differently in all of them. And and and it it's it's like a, it it it it's a theological lens that is just overlaid on the biblical text. And, I was I was reared in that. That's what I was taught.
Luke Stehr:If you're thinking of, like, a pop culture version, Left Behind series would be a fictionalized version of theological dispensationalism.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:That's right. There are tenets of dispensationalism that are fine, that that I believe are biblical. But the overall perspective, I've rejected it as a true hermeneutic. So the idea that Israel, the children of Israel, the literal physical children of Israel, Abraham, are God's chosen people forever. And now we are living, the dispensationalists would say we are living in kind of a suspended time, if you will, it is called the great parenthesis where God is working through the church.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:But one day he's going to remove the church through the rapture and then he'll get back to his work with Israel. Israel once again will be the chosen people of God and the instrument that he will use on planet Earth. Well, I just I just reject that as a true hermeneutic. Right. You know, I I believe that the church we are now the people of God and it includes everybody.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:There are Jews and Gentiles, it's everyone is now a part of this who is a part of the body of Christ. God is working through the body of Christ today and we are the instrument that He's going to use. And and I believe that is that to me is clearly taught in the new testament from my perspective.
Luke Stehr:That's Galatians affirming that Christ is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Exactly. You know. And so, you know, and even the imagery that's used in the New Testament to refer to the church were called the Israel of God by Paul, were called the diaspora by Peter in 1st Peter 1. Well diaspora was, as you know, was a technical word just for Jews who lived outside of Palestine. And Peter takes that word and says to all the diaspora, all these Christians are living all over the world.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:I mean, we're we're the people of God. So when I see the challenge, the admonition, the encouragement, pray for the peace of Jerusalem, I start with the Old Testament. I believe fully what David meant was pray for the shalom of Jerusalem.
Luke Stehr:The literal physical Jerusalem. This is what David would have had.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Yes. This is our heartbeat. This is our home. We want Jerusalem to thrive. Amen.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:You know? I've been a Jew in that era and up to the time of Christ. Of course, to me that would be a physical reality right now in 2024. Of course, I pray for the peace of Jerusalem, literally. I'm talking about the city
Luke Stehr:of Jerusalem. Yeah. We want God to bring shalom to the entire world.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Absolutely. So Jerusalem
Luke Stehr:is included in that.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Right. And it's a troubled spot right now. It has been pretty much my whole lifetime, Luke.
Luke Stehr:I mean, I was a kid.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:You know? I'm I'm I didn't really understand it when I was a little boy, but I do remember bits and pieces of of the challenges in the mid sixties, you know, in in Israel. But regardless, yes. And so we stopped yesterday in the sermon and prayed for the peace of Jerusalem, the city of Jerusalem, the nation of Israel, because I believe we should. But that is not connected to my eschatology.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:That was not when I think about the admission for us today praying for the peace of Jerusalem, I would take that to be an admonition to pray for the shalom of the people of God, for the church. We are that new Jerusalem as I understand it. We are the Israel of God today, so we should pray for each other. We should pray for God's shalom to be manifested within the people of God and through the people of God, with the emissaries of it. Right.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:And so that's how I would interpret that today. I realize that puts me a little bit of a minority with some evangelical scholars. I'm okay with that, because I know my heart in it. I know what I mean by it. And, but yeah, that's where I would point us to to to pray for the shalom for the people of God and to me that would be the church, we're the new temple, we're the manifestation of the body of Christ, and and we're supposed to be colonies of heaven on earth.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:So we're supposed to be showing the world. Here's what shalom can look like in a community. Here's how, you can live in relationship with each other.
Luke Stehr:Yeah. You don't shalom alone.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:That's right. You know? Just like, as I said Sunday morning, you know, you you listen to Ryan Hodges' testimony that he gave in, in in in that video Sunday just about how their life, he and Katie, has been enriched, blessed, they've been cared for in this body of believers. And and then Casey Fagan gets up as our preschool minister says, I'm new here, but I'm seeing that all over. It's not just writing Katie's testimony.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:I'm watching you. I'm watching you care for each other. I'm watching you love each other. My family's experienced that. Our daughter has been dealing with with breast cancer, and I've watched this church rally around her and walk with her and bring shalom to her family.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:They have looked at physical needs, emotional needs that people in our church have felt her children have had, and and and they've rallied around her. You know, they have brought something that that's what the church does. Well, that's what we're supposed to bring to the world. So I'm praying for that peace of Jerusalem for First Baptist Arlington.
Luke Stehr:Yeah. It's the webbing together of God, humans, and all creation.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:May it be so. You know? So that's how I would interpret it. And, and that's why to me, it's it's the territorial side of it. I have a deep appreciation for the Holy Land, I said that Sunday, because of the story and what's occurred there and our connection to it from a spiritual historical perspective.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Absolutely. But it doesn't factor into the future plan of God for me and my understanding of the new testament. So
Luke Stehr:Okay. Well, enough said. Well, I think that is a great place for us to end. So if you have made it through, thank you. And we're glad that you listened.
Luke Stehr:We hope it was informative and formative for you. And we will be back next week.
Dr. Dennis Wiles:Thanks for listening to the tell me more podcast today. You can subscribe to this podcast on your app of choice, or you can visit us at fbca.org to find out more information about the podcast and our church. Thanks for listening. Have a good day.