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Always Be Testing explores the experiments, insights, and growth stories shaping the future of affiliate and partner marketing in B2B SaaS. Hosted by industry veterans, the show dives deep into real-world lessons from the people driving measurable impact at companies like Google, HubSpot, Ramp, Webflow, G2, and beyond.
Each episode uncovers what happens when today's most innovative marketers challenge assumptions, run smarter experiments, and build programs that scale revenue through meaningful partnerships. If you’re in affiliate, partnerships, or SaaS growth — this is your front-row seat to how the best do it (and what they’ve learned along the way
Tye DeGrange (00:01.657)
Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of the Always Be Testing Podcast. I'm your host, Ty Degrange, and I'm really excited to talk to Logan Dunn today. Logan, how's it going, man?
Logan Dunn (00:12.462)
It's doing good. I'm glad to be here with you, Ty.
Tye DeGrange (00:15.675)
happy to talk to you. We've had such great conversations. Logan is leading all things marketing at WISE, one of the most innovative companies in the smart camera game, and he can tell you all about it. So we've got a lot of learnings to share and a lot of good things to discuss.
Logan Dunn (00:33.614)
Awesome. Excited to be here.
Tye DeGrange (00:34.769)
It's been absolutely, absolutely maybe kicking it off, Logan. What what's something that the audience may not know about you?
Logan Dunn (00:44.952)
I mean we've talked about this in the past, but I have six children. It makes you know being an executive in our company and just managing life and marketing for a company that's growing fast challenge. there's that and then I don't know, I grew up in the mountains in the up over by Yellowstone kinda. So I grew up, you know, doing all the fun things, skiing, snowboarding, hiking, adventuring.
Tye DeGrange (01:09.819)
Wow.
Logan Dunn (01:14.348)
And now I live in rural Texas, very different.
Tye DeGrange (01:15.409)
I love that. It kind of feels similar to myself. I but did not grow up in Yellowstone, but grew up on a a ranch with a lot of fun things to do and activities, and I'm also in central Texas. So there you go. The where the Yellowstone thing is super cool. I've been there once and I absolutely was blown away and obsessed. Whereabouts in Yellowstone were you?
Logan Dunn (01:30.625)
Yeah.
Logan Dunn (01:41.922)
Well, we're southeast Idaho. We're about an hour and fifteen minutes outside of Yellowstone. we just would go up in the Hip Montana and going through West Yellowstone, really close. Or you could go equally, you could go over into Jackson Hole and cross into the south entrance. so I grew up skiing Jackson Hole and the other side of Jackson Hole, Grand Targuee, I'd go like two or three times a week. it was definitely adventure. Did scout camps up there. I didn't realize what I had. Like our scout camp was literally at the base of the Tetons.
And and I just took it for granted. And now I'm like missing the mountains dramatically, you know.
Tye DeGrange (02:18.64)
It's one of the things we miss most, having grown up in the, you know, the geographic diversity of Northern California and spending some time in in Seattle, Washington. I I don't miss a lot of things aside from family and friends, but the one thing I do miss in being able to hop in the car and be in the be at the mountains in a couple hours and real, real serious mountains that are nice.
Logan Dunn (02:42.763)
I didn't realize we had so much in common because in my office, I'm I'm at my like work office, but in my home office I have the three mountain ranges where I've lived. So I lived in northern California, so I have the Sierra Nevadas, I have like half dome in a picture, and then I've got the Cascades, because I lived up in Seattle as well. and then I've got the Tetons because I grew up around the Tetons. So those are the three ranges where I've lived and I love it.
Tye DeGrange (03:02.904)
Tye DeGrange (03:07.128)
I'm getting like goosebumps right now. We we have a we have a photo of Mount Pluto in our kitchen, where we used to go as a family. It was a it's a cool it's just like the North Star mountain. It's like 8,000 up in Sierra near the Sierra Nevadas in Tahoe. So that's amazing. I love that. yeah, and double the kids we do, I I commend you for that ability to juggle a lot of things. We may have to share some notes on
Logan Dunn (03:21.665)
Yeah. Awesome.
Tye DeGrange (03:34.848)
Optimizing time and how you keep it all together. That's that's how do you how do you keep it all together?
Logan Dunn (03:41.72)
I mean the truth is you survive. I was told once by another marketing professional worked at Amazon. He was like, When you're when you have six young kids, you know, just just survive, stay sane, get through. Like, this too shall pass. but it's it's also like it's a riot, it's great. I mean the way to do it is just get up early and stay up late and you know, I mean trying to balance myself. Like I went to got up early, kids are on school.
Tye DeGrange (03:44.644)
Ha ha ha.
Tye DeGrange (03:58.779)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (04:02.478)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (04:06.576)
Yeah.
Logan Dunn (04:11.669)
summer break, right? And so I got up early, w hit the gym before coming into the office, work in the office and then and then I come home and it's like another job until about nine o'clock at night. And then I get like a slow break before, you know, it's repeat and and start over.
Tye DeGrange (04:13.274)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (04:17.39)
Love.
Tye DeGrange (04:21.572)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (04:28.676)
Yeah. The routines and structures, it sounds cliche, but are so important and I I've gotten a lot better, especially since having our second of three, where it was like, Okay, I have to get up soup you know, before them, get a workout in, so then you're kinda sane for the rest of the day.
Logan Dunn (04:47.853)
Yeah, exactly. Like I used to think, you know, waking up at like six thirty was early and now it doesn't even feel like it
Tye DeGrange (04:53.328)
Yeah, now that's sleeping in. That feels like sleeping in to me too. that was not the case for me before either. so wise. Running marketing, running the D to C side of it. It's such a fascinating business. You've taken it so far. I I think it'd be interesting for the audience to understand, you know, at a high level where you've taken it, kudos to you, and then sort of
Logan Dunn (05:00.148)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (05:23.054)
What does that next directional growth look like for for you leading out marketing for wise? I'm super curious about that and would love for people to learn a little bit about all the levers you pull, which are quite quite extensive.
Logan Dunn (05:37.388)
Yeah, so I've been at WISE for coming on seven years. and so WISE is only almost eight years old. So I joined WISE at it when it was about eighteen months old. so I've seen a lot of changes in how we do marketing. In fact, I joined WISE as a director of product marketing and I led all of our product marketing for non camera products and I went from there into leading our subscription growth.
Tye DeGrange (05:43.888)
It's amazing.
Tye DeGrange (05:56.271)
Yeah.
Logan Dunn (06:04.301)
So I did subscription growth for a year, helped us get like we started our our SaaS subscription for our cameras. And I did that for yeah, about a year to get us to our first one million in monthly recurring revenue, which was a big milestone for us. and I was there working alongside with our head of subscriptions, who's still here at WISE and is doing a great job. and then I I went from there to lead e-commerce and I come from kind of a background in e-commerce. So you know, I
Tye DeGrange (06:10.074)
Mm-hmm.
Logan Dunn (06:32.565)
I we still have a CMO, Dave Crosby, he's one of the co-founders. So he he leads like the branding marketing efforts. and then I am over our direct to consumer efforts. and so I've been in this direct to consumer position now for about four and a half years. It'll be five in the fall. I've been through five Q4s, which is like that's like game time for WISE. So it's aggressive. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. but as far as it goes, like taking Wise
Tye DeGrange (06:55.824)
Five lifetimes.
Logan Dunn (07:02.677)
next for the marketing perspective. why is this we've got a new president and COO. she's been at the company now for about a year. She's ex Amazon and we're really focusing a little bit back to our roots. I think I find that it's easy, especially in a startup environment, which I feel like we still operate in, it's easy to kind of divert and get into a just hustle mode and trying to do, you know, whatever you can do to grab
Tye DeGrange (07:29.648)
Mm-hmm.
Logan Dunn (07:31.532)
Share, you know, spend here, try this, do that, you know, always be testing, right? And but then there's a time where you've got to pull back a little and you've gotta recenter and refocus because you're you're you've tried a lot of things, you spread a lot of ways, and now you're kind of like, okay, so what's really working? What's our foundation? What's our core? and so right now I'm actually working on a strategic repositioning for wise.com.
not just not a site redesign. It's more of like a where does wise.com belong in the broader Wise now. so we we're distributing in Walmart now, Home Depot, Costco, Best Buy, of course, Amazon, right? So we're a much bigger brand now. And so what does our direct-to-consumer really do for our customers? And and what does each retail channel location do? And and going back to that.
Tye DeGrange (08:00.634)
Love it.
Tye DeGrange (08:20.473)
Mm-hmm.
Tye DeGrange (08:27.482)
Mm-hmm.
Logan Dunn (08:29.529)
route of making sure we have a clearly defined strategy. That's what I'm working on right now. Because I think that, you know, we're not really stopping some of the other things that are really working for us. But I think this is going to give us the focus and help propel us at a faster pace in the direction we really want to go. It it kind of laser focuses us. So that's really what I'm working on right now.
Tye DeGrange (08:46.362)
Yeah, I love that.
Tye DeGrange (08:50.532)
I love that. Appreciate that context. Can you give a little maybe blurb for the for the audience just around like, you know, it's a pretty competitive space. You've got some big names. I I think there's certain unique characteristics. You talked about getting back to your roots at WISE. Like, is there is there certain things that you think WISE has done that has allowed you to punch through, maybe punch above your weight and how maybe without giving away the secret sauce, like
How are you thinking about that? Because it it's just a noisy competitive world.
Logan Dunn (09:23.757)
yeah. I mean I think that the competitive advantage that we've had, we disrupted the space. you know, eight years ago when we started, the closest home security camera is about two hundred dollars and we launched the twenty dollar security camera. And now people don't expect to pay more than, you know, sub fifty dollars, I should say, for a home security camera. and of course we've expanded into other product lines and all of this, but I think the
The thing that allows us to punch above our weight is our kind of continual startup mentality. we launch more products than our competitors, period. we are faster moving than our competitors in many ways. And we have to be because we we don't have the budgets. We're we're up against brands that have you know, hundreds of millions of dollar ad budget. And you know, while we're still
Tye DeGrange (10:01.904)
Mm-hmm.
Logan Dunn (10:19.723)
doing pretty well on our marketing spend. We can never beat them on our marketing spend. So we have to beat it in our marketing methods. and you know, products are just a surefire win. and then also something that our head of growth always says and as well as our CMO is is don't be boring. And our CMO, Dave Crosby, he's done a great job of helping not be boring.
Tye DeGrange (10:40.752)
Mm-hmm.
Tye DeGrange (10:46.288)
Mm-hmm.
Logan Dunn (10:46.775)
You know, being able to pivot fast, being creative, having a really strong brand tone. and then also really trying to focus on things that are mattering for our customers. Like we're we're seeing how much more customers are focusing on security and privacy. you know, Apple's really positioned strong there. but from our standpoint, we've developed like our own special encryption method that
Tye DeGrange (10:49.989)
Mm-hmm.
Tye DeGrange (11:04.698)
Yeah.
Logan Dunn (11:14.557)
allows our cameras to be more secure than the average. You can't even go out there into this space and find someone that hasn't had security breaches. And so trying to find like how do we set ourselves apart on this front and become, you know, really strong in the security and trust space as well. So it's just trying to figure out, you know, where are we positioning different yeah and speed is one and
Tye DeGrange (11:14.767)
Love.
Tye DeGrange (11:25.242)
Yeah. Love that.
Tye DeGrange (11:38.084)
Yeah. It's a great selling point.
Logan Dunn (11:43.689)
And then some of the other core foundational pieces is another.
Tye DeGrange (11:47.086)
Yeah. Cost speed, breadth of product and privacy. I love I mean, those are the things that come out for me which sound really compelling.
Logan Dunn (11:54.828)
Yeah, and cost continues to be one, but it's not it used to be our unique value proposition. It's not anymore. So we're having to bring in other other value propositions, like really find out what did the customers really want. Cost is for sure there. but we've got other players in the market now, like TP Link. they've come in at really low cost. you know, and others, you know, and there's a ton of direct to US Chinese brands that have come in.
Tye DeGrange (12:01.124)
Love that.
Tye DeGrange (12:09.796)
Yeah, important.
Logan Dunn (12:23.079)
And you know, American consumers seem there's a huge contingent of them that seem totally fine just giving their personal information to a company they never heard of. with servers, who knows where. but I think in general people are starting to get a little bit more aware of that. And we we kind of see that like as in any market, right? People start to get more like they're they're accepting anything that's new and shiny, and then they start to be like, wait, actually.
Tye DeGrange (12:23.215)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (12:31.32)
Yeah. Huh. Yeah.
Logan Dunn (12:48.993)
Let's think about this in our choices, you know. And so I think that we're hitting that phase and so we're gonna see these US based companies accelerate a little
Tye DeGrange (12:50.244)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Reminds me of like the wave of not to derail, but reminds me of like the wave of twenty three me where it was like, yeah, just give your DNA and then it was like, wait, maybe maybe not. not, you know, that's a that's a hot button topic, I know, but super it's super interesting to hear, you know, that evolution. I'm really excited to see, you know, what's next for you guys. You you talk you know, you you with you know, you've you've managed a lot, obviously, within marketing. had said subscriptions.
Logan Dunn (13:09.357)
Yeah, that's right.
Tye DeGrange (13:27.312)
There's now D you know, D to C is the focus. It would be interesting to understand like from what you can share, like, you know, you talked about Walmart, you talked about Amazon, you talked about all of these channels, and you obviously are thinking about the the D to C side. Is there something worth exploring around the how do you kind of balance that as an organization? in particular knowing you you want that distribution, you want those third parties.
It how might you describe how how wise balances that and how you you guys balance it the value of going D to C with more margin, but the distribution opportunity with the Walmart and Amazons of the world, how do you guys think about that for for retailers that are maybe trying to struggle through that too?
Logan Dunn (14:15.565)
Yeah. I mean for us it's consumer first. If you get too focused on your own I guess your own profit, your own growth, I mean that'll work for a little while, but unless you go consumer first, you're not gonna see lasting growth. and that's what we're noticing and seeing. And we're trying to go consumer first. And so getting out into these different retail locations, of course it's a growth strategy for wise.
But each one has to have a specific like role in what it caters to and gives to the consumer. like I talked about, we're rewriting where wise.com sits in the wise story for our customers. we're we're focusing on different tenets for wise dot com that affect how we interact with our retail partners. We're
If customers want to buy from retail, we're trying to encourage and allow customers to buy from retail. we are
Tye DeGrange (15:17.892)
Very Amazon level customer obsession, which I respect.
Logan Dunn (15:20.969)
Yeah, which all of our founders are are Amazon alum. And I do think that we we have that focus at the core. one of our core values is be friends with our users. and that's very hard because you have, you know, we have over twelve million users and it's like there's a lot of different wants and needs in there. and so we're trying to do the best we can, but like staying customer obsessed has really helped us to decide because if customers want
Tye DeGrange (15:42.81)
Yeah.
Logan Dunn (15:51.064)
product same day, then they should go to retail. if they wanted a day or two, Amazon's a great strategy. If they want you know, a solution and a bigger system with lower costs, they can come to wise.com. also working on our Marcom strategy out into the like not just communicating direct to our customers about us, but also about our retail partners and be being good partners with our retailers.
Tye DeGrange (16:07.79)
Like that.
Logan Dunn (16:21.073)
yeah, so I mean it's really thinking holistically about it and with the end consumer mind, like what what does each thing do in its role? And that's true in our marketing spend too. We've actually ditched most of our marketing metrics that are in the platforms themselves. We use those just as like maybe leading indicators, right? Like
Tye DeGrange (16:21.477)
Love that.
Tye DeGrange (16:49.872)
I love this direction. Yes.
Logan Dunn (16:50.721)
To comp yeah, compare, you know, compare how ads are doing against each other. That's great. Right. so see what's actually performing. But when it comes to what's actually performing for WISE, we are really just doing our own incrementality test completely. One thing we've done is we've broken out a growth org into not just it used to be inside of direct to consumer. And so we've now broken that out. we have a head of growth in
and he's been at WISE for a long time too, and he's done a great job of stopping just being about wise dot com with our ad strategy, and starting to say, nope, we've got to be about the broader business. And so now we're tracking media spend versus all the channels and looking at the incrementality as we spend and just looking at raw units, like what's happening with our units in our strategy.
Tye DeGrange (17:34.672)
Love.
Tye DeGrange (17:45.892)
Yeah. Yeah.
Logan Dunn (17:47.752)
And again, that's focusing on retail. So now we can we can move our budgets around a little more freely, pull from Amazon or Walmart or whatever to to benefit Amazon and Walmart, right? We're not pulling from them to because they're not doing well. We're pulling to put the money in the best place for wise and for consumers and ultimately for the channels as well.
Tye DeGrange (18:07.312)
Love. Love that. Are you, it seems like if I'm rehearing you correctly, obviously the incrementality is a huge question that you're attacking and measuring without reliance on platform, which is music to my ears. But are you headed down a path of marketing mix modeling MMM? And I'm just curious about that.
Logan Dunn (18:33.389)
I think we're headed down a path. We're not again, this is really hard because when you get into like the MMM modeling, you're relying on these other tools and what they do. And they, you know, whether it's North Beam or other tools, right? There's there's different advantages and disadvantages, and it's based on their model and how they handle it and all of that stuff. So we are headed in that direction, and right now we're kind of trying to say, how can we do this as much ourselves?
Tye DeGrange (18:45.156)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (18:59.716)
Yeah.
Logan Dunn (18:59.841)
By looking at our mix and then looking at just raw unit numbers. Like where are we driving and what campaigns when we spend here, here, and here are pushing up numbers there, there, and there for these channels. And so we're kind of saying, here where's our holistic marketing spend? And then what do our units look like for our campaigns? And when our campaigns happen, we try and look not just narrowly like on direct to consumer, which is the old way for us, but br
Tye DeGrange (19:11.972)
Yeah.
Logan Dunn (19:29.921)
you know, rather, how does this campaign affect Amazon, Walmart, others as well? And that's actually a huge learning we've had about like TikTok as well. like if you look at j like TikTok shop is growing really well for us, but it's also like we we actually don't see it as just its own channel. we see it as a way of of using it as a marketing vehicle for all the channels. And we see that in our data. We see we see like if you look at like
Tye DeGrange (19:34.554)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (19:50.832)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (19:55.824)
I could see that.
Logan Dunn (19:59.726)
Costs per view, TikTok's pretty cheap. But if you if you look at like marketing costs per sale, it's it's pretty expensive. And so you have to look more broadly in order to know if if you know investing in TikTok is actually really good for us or not.
Tye DeGrange (20:12.879)
It's
Tye DeGrange (20:17.37)
Yeah, I I love it it it feels like flavors of MM and I'm I'm hearing more and more, not to knock any of the third party tools, but I'm hearing more and more of a lot of brands are are owning and building some version of that internally and it's it's you know, you've you've got tech that's improving, you've got open source models that have improved, you've got if you have ex subject matter experts around data analyses, data science incrementality, that obviously is a great value.
Logan Dunn (20:36.397)
Mm-hmm.
Logan Dunn (20:44.599)
Yeah, we have our whole d we have a data science team. And that's been super helpful for us, yeah. And and like you said, like not knocking like these third party softwares like the triple well and the blot blot it and Northbeam and others. Like I they're they're good, that but they I don't think they're the be all end all for MM, right? They're they're input source to help you
Tye DeGrange (20:47.716)
Yeah, I would. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. We we're fans.
Tye DeGrange (20:58.446)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (21:09.07)
Yeah.
Logan Dunn (21:12.833)
guide you in that direction and to help you make better choices. But I don't I think you have to be looking also at your own data and and multiple data sources to see.
Tye DeGrange (21:16.602)
Yeah.
One hundred.
Yeah. I think once you cross over certain thresholds and certain sizes of spend and channels and complexity, it's like there's a world where those become, you know, really, really valuable to sort of level up. But you guys are even beyond that stage. Yes.
Logan Dunn (21:34.466)
Yeah. Yeah, because it gets more noisy. Well, I don't know if we're beyond it or I I think that maybe in some ways we are, but in some ways we're we're a little premature for that as well. I think the main point here is like the the more you spend and the more campaigns you have and the more channels you have and the more everything, the more complex everything gets. And at that point you need more data to look at. And I I would say any marketer who's
Tye DeGrange (21:46.192)
Mm-hmm.
Logan Dunn (22:04.033)
Who's I guess starting to see scale of their org will learn this. But you ha you cannot just rely on a single source. And so you're really trying to just take a bunch of different sources and make sense of it. And you have to realize the limitations and strengths of each data source and go, but the ultimately, and this is what we've learned is ultimately we have to say how much money's going out the door and how much, how many units are coming in from where.
And kind of mapping those to our campaigns. And again, that's just a source. and then we have to have other sources to kind of guide us along the way to help us interpret and tell you know, what's true.
Tye DeGrange (22:41.434)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (22:45.956)
Yeah, I love that. And not not to go too deep or open up too much of like your internal workings, but is there worlds where you can look at non spend factors like promotion or seasonality or conver you know, conversion aspects or product aspects that are compelling that might drive some of those revenue numbers in multi channel? It it's sort of a Okay.
Logan Dunn (23:09.463)
yeah. A hundred percent. I mean we we put those in. We have regular weekly business reviews and we those are all factors that will affect it. and different channels have different seasonalities. you know, Home Depot's really big in the Father's Day space and Labor Day Memorial Day. It's just really strong times for it. Walmart's really big in the back to school time, although maybe not as big for our category.
You know, Amazon, of course, has invented Prime Day and now everyone kind of follows. And so we we definitely throw in those promotional strategies. And we see, of course, as we have promos going, we see our marketing spend have, you know, much lower CAC. just because we're also piling on our promotional dollars now to it. And so, you know, customers are getting a better deal and so they're easier to reach. And we have to consider all that, or you end up just
burning a hole in your pocket from doubling down on your marketing costs promo and and and spend, you know?
Tye DeGrange (24:06.479)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (24:10.98)
Yeah, 100% yeah. I I love that. It's a it's definitely principles of of proper MM, even though you're not maybe full on. It's there's a lot going into that from a data science and measurement perspective. one of the things you've talked a lot about and we've had the pleasure to collaborate on is just creative optimization, right? You've you've thought deeply, you've seen a lot in this game. You talked a little bit about how that's one of the benefits of the platform for folks maybe less up to speed or
you know, maybe have some some testing or creative optimization background, how do you think about setting that up well and properly?
Logan Dunn (24:49.217)
Yeah, I mean there's two there's two sides to creative optimization. One is you have to have a good like idea generation and pipeline. like your overall campaigns and like you have to have someone that's got a really good creative mind. Like that really is helpful. Like if you can get like Dave Crosby himself has like four point three million YouTube subscribers and
Tye DeGrange (25:08.228)
Mm-hmm.
Logan Dunn (25:17.513)
on his own channel and yeah, you know, I mean you know, but he's like he's got a sense of like what's gonna hit and what's not and there's a there's a real power to that because it it gives you like a directional what should we create, when should we react, what are good ideas, what are not. but that's only directional. Like
Tye DeGrange (25:17.934)
Not bad. Not bad. We're number three in marketing, but we're not quite there yet.
Logan Dunn (25:43.822)
No one can predict what's gonna be viral and what's not. Like and you know, anyone who thinks that they can is just means that they've struck gold a couple times and been lucky. you know, it's just it's just directional. So then what you have to do is you have to just test. and especially with AI, that's been huge for us is just just cranking out the ads. So we throw absurd numbers now of ads into the platforms.
Tye DeGrange (25:56.484)
Ha ha.
Logan Dunn (26:13.753)
like for a single campaign for single product for a couple week, you know, two to three week campaign, we'll we'll put a hundred ads now in, a hundred pieces of creative. because we can just create them so fast. And and we do it all ourselves just with AI tools. We're not using like a we're not even using like a third party ad AI tool per se. We're actually just using just our own just
the big models, the big AI models and just creating a ton of ads. And we see only a handful of them stick. and we base them off of some of our again creative direction from the start. and then they differ per platform too. but at the end, like I said, a handful stick, we'll only see out of those hundred, maybe two or three will actually carry the campaign. But unless we've got that, it won't s like you'll always settle on two or three 'cause the
you know, Meta and Google, they they like are gonna optimize your ads, but you've got to give them a big enough bench. I think of it like my kids play high school sports and you've got your different sizes of high schools, right? You've got your 1A up to your 6A. And and the reason you don't just have a 1A competing with a 6A is because a 6A school has like the high school might have 1500 kids to pull the same you know 22 player football team or whatever it is, you know. and
Tye DeGrange (27:37.444)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (27:41.454)
Yeah. Good analogy.
Logan Dunn (27:43.584)
And they can just, you know, they just you have so many things that they just rise to the surface, these best players. And so their overall becomes just so much stronger. And it's the same in our ad creative. It's like if you only give them a one A input for ad creative, you're gonna get you're still gonna have your top three, just like you would in in sports. But if you give them a six A level of creatives, you're still gonna have your top three, but they're gonna be a better top three overall and they're gonna perform better.
Tye DeGrange (28:01.306)
Yeah. Yep.
Logan Dunn (28:13.333)
And so again, so it's that direction and then it's that testing. And you have to like have those two kind of combined together. And that's what we've moved into this this marketing of growth org, because now it's serving the entire company rather than just serving just D to C.
Tye DeGrange (28:21.989)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (28:31.024)
I love that. It's a very Texas analogy with our high school sports and football being king here to say the least.
Logan Dunn (28:34.771)
Yeah. I have never had sports. That's right. Sports is just such a Texas thing. you know, we had the mountains like we talked about at the beginning. that's what I grew up with and that's what people wanted. But here in Texas, sports is what they do.
Tye DeGrange (28:43.121)
Ha ha ha.
Tye DeGrange (28:52.046)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's it's beaten into everyone. can't even get a ticket to the the local high school here, but that's another story for another time. That's fascinating. When when you when you port those a hundred in, you kind of touched on it and kind of answered, I think, the the the the the the exact summary, but if if if you don't mind, what kind of again, what kind of evolved in the thinking? So like you you ported the hundred in like your volume went up.
got the direction, which I love. Got the six A mentality you talked about. Did
Like, is there is there can you speak to maybe how much it got better? Because I think it's interesting to note without giving the details of the data of like this was the ROI, this was the CPA or whatever, the CTR. I'm curious, like, how much better is it for a brand to think about you need to have this much volume? Obviously, it's very different for each brand, each spend, each campaign, each auction, each competitive set. But yeah, I I really think that's a big call out of like, wow, you actually
Logan Dunn (29:53.611)
Each category. Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (30:00.101)
will benefit this much. If if there's something there, I'd be curious to learn about it.
Logan Dunn (30:02.797)
Sure. No, no, I yeah, I can give some generalities. And and one thing is it's you know, I have a good buddy who runs an Amazon marketing agency and and he does a lot with consumer products, like food products and other things and it's very, very different market. I think that that category, the market that you're in, is gonna perform differently. it's gonna have different strategies. And it and your strategy is kind of based on the white space for what your competitors are or aren't doing, right?
and so so what I say might not apply to every category, but I definitely think they should try. It's not it takes a lot of work, but it's not really hard to go and to do it. It's it's just about the volume and really getting that out there and regular refreshing. a lot of times what people want is ads, ads are becoming like a a set it and forget it type strategy. And even though they know that that they're not set it and forget it.
Tye DeGrange (30:50.244)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Logan Dunn (31:02.569)
What's happening is is they're they're forgetting it still for too long. You know, they might be coming back and refreshing monthly, and that's probably too too long. especially in today's ultra competitive ad space. now as far as direction goes, on what have we seen? So it was really interesting for us. Let's just take med meta, for example. We actually saw less traffic come in for the same amount of spend.
Tye DeGrange (31:11.29)
Yeah.
Logan Dunn (31:29.153)
But what we saw was about 10x conversion, like literally 10x. Like w and it was because we were hyper-targeting our ads, hyper-targeting to specific products, not just like the brand. So we're like, this ads, these hundred ads are just for this one wise camera product. not like the broader wise, like this specific use case camera, you know? and then we are
Tye DeGrange (31:36.741)
Wow.
Tye DeGrange (31:57.339)
feeding the algorithm, more options, more students in the six A analogy.
Logan Dunn (32:00.852)
Yeah, that's right. But also we're feeding them like again, if you go back to that six A analogy, like we're we're feeding it like for a single thing. So like if you take a hundred ads but it's for your bigger brand, like that's not enough. But if you take a hundred ads for s one specific product, that's now your mix that you're looking at. And so
Tye DeGrange (32:22.158)
It it it that's crazy. The ten X is absolute crazy. Wha what type of a ad volume were you feeding it prior to that, if you don't mind me asking?
Logan Dunn (32:30.697)
Not very much. Like, I mean, we were feeding it, you know, monthly refreshes of like a handful of creatives f across all the campaigns. Just looking at stuff that had you know, really high frequency you know, like customers have been seeing it a ton, you know, it's like, okay, this one's time to refresh. And so we changed from and that's this is actually one the problems with with going agency side, in my opinion, is
Tye DeGrange (32:32.186)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like okay.
Tye DeGrange (32:41.978)
Got it.
Holy cow.
Logan Dunn (33:00.367)
a lot of times the agencies have so many clients that that's kind of all that they can touch with it. So if you do go agency side, you need to make sure that your agency is giving you like maybe dedicated people or dedicated amount of hours per week or something, because you need that dedicated to your account. And so, you know, big thing is is we brought it in-house and we and then we just we went to just a ton of creative on these single products.
Tye DeGrange (33:06.117)
Yeah.
Logan Dunn (33:30.253)
And you know, and it's not just the creative, it's like the testing. It's the you know, it's just that you have a broader pool to do all that stuff and to put it all into and and it's the targeting, right? We have these hundred ads for this one product on these narrow targeted audiences, which is why our traffic declined, but and our spends stayed high based on our traffic. but in the end, what we ended up seeing was just
Tye DeGrange (33:31.728)
Makes sense.
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
Logan Dunn (33:58.188)
Really, really good conversions. We found people who are really ready.
Tye DeGrange (34:01.796)
I love that. I love that. Yeah, it's it's so fascinating. This it kinda goes in waves and I think, you know, there's this is where we like the third party partner angle because it's just it's a lot of work and a lot of cat herding so we can find that we can take it off the plate. not to spin it into our messaging, but obviously, you know, you know better than anyone. the brand the d the brand of consumer messaging has to be part of the mix. It's
Meta, Google, you know, re Amazon, et cetera. How mu obviously our thesis, and we've talked a little bit about this around, you know, the trust isn't what it used to be. People are not trusting brands as much in today's business environment over the last, you know, fifty years of changing sentiment and changing culture and everything. And there's this explosion of kind of the third parties of of saying, like, hey, this is why WISE is great. And like having
the realness factor and the authenticity, which is often overused. I guess I'm curious, you know, where are you seeing wins there? Where are you seeing that working or not working? And is there a future there for WISE around like, yes, we have to have a world class wise to consumer messaging. Yes, we we've leaned into some wins there and value props, but I'm curious where those third parties play into Wise's
wise strategy from a marketing and acquisition perspective.
Logan Dunn (35:33.698)
Yeah, definitely. I mean, and you have to know your category. So for the consumer electronics category, these electronics kind of review sites are really, really big. You know, it's and it's probably gonna be very similar in supplements, pharmaceuticals, you know, stuff like that, right? But each category is gonna be different. if it's a really broad consumable, like a protein bar, you know, you're probably gonna be better off focusing on the micro influencers.
in the you know Instagrams and TikToks and stuff and that's where your strategies would be focused. So you have to look at like what is your strategy. And I think everyone needs to be doing the micro influencer work for sure. but we also had a have a big strategy on close relationships with these media review partners. We had a time where we lost their trust. we had a security incident like I said everyone has seen stuff like that. And so what we in st yeah instead of just
Tye DeGrange (36:14.853)
Mm.
Tye DeGrange (36:29.85)
Yeah, you're not alone.
Logan Dunn (36:34.443)
Kind of folding and saying we give up, throw our hands in the air. you know, we double down, changed the way we did security, remodeled it, and then we went back to them and said, Hey, like, look at this, check this out, look what we've done. We put in all this money money, energy, and investment into creating a solid, secure product. and we found that that, you know, their interests are to
I mean, they make their money by protecting the consumer. They make their money by by giving good recommendations. and so for them it's like we had to show them that we we were worthy of the consumer trust. And then we did we've done, you know, a lot of PR campaigns and things around this to really work with these this side of the I guess like the external audiences that are
Tye DeGrange (37:31.322)
Yeah.
Logan Dunn (37:31.534)
That are va vetting our product. So that was really important to us. But that again is kind of a category-specific thing. And then we spend quite a bit of money, mostly on TikTok more than Instagram for us, on sample programs, influencers. We built our an entire Discord that's just for creators. And we manage a Discord for creators that allows us to create relationships to do incentives for these creators.
Tye DeGrange (37:54.874)
Love that.
Logan Dunn (38:00.002)
And this is managed by we have a separate social commerce team. And and that social commerce team, like that's what they do. So huge. Like you you in today's world, you have to have these voices. And I think anyone who's seeing success right now knows this and is and is kind of doing that. But if so, if you're not, then you're probably behind and but there's no better time to start today than today, right?
Tye DeGrange (38:08.528)
I love that. Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (38:22.383)
Amen.
Tye DeGrange (38:26.02)
Yeah, we l we obviously know how much we we love helping support on that world and advi you know, advising, educating, recruiting, finding the creators, finding the review sites. But it is fascinating and
Logan Dunn (38:36.375)
And that's been our biggest for the affiliate standpoint, by the way. Like there's different kinds of affiliates, right? And that's been our focus for the affiliate is these bigger creators and then these micro influencer creators. you know, some people it might not be that approach. It might be some of these you might have a lot of margin. You might be able to go into like the racketans and others. You know, the quality of clicks that you're gonna get there is totally different. And that's a different play, and it might be great for your category. But for us, this is the play that we saw from the affiliate side.
Tye DeGrange (39:04.228)
Yeah. But I l I love the th the out of you know, it it's logical thinking around because XYZ was successful for XYZ brand, we're not necessarily gonna follow, we're gonna measure what is successful for Y's. We're gonna look at each one in its own merit and we're gonna we're gonna come in with a very thoughtful approach, which it's sounds very obvious, but I'm s I'm shocked because we see so many reps in movies of this where
Brands going with a lot of preconceived notions. Yes, some of those are valid, some of those are real, but I think having a very open, semi open mind around these partners and seeing where the data's coming in and then investing appropriately is is sounds like where I've seen you operate and what you're you're sharing with the audience, which I think is very valuable.
Logan Dunn (39:49.244)
absolutely. And it has to be, has to be it's for your category. Like some things like we heard that from other people that are like, man, you gotta try this. It's gonna be so good. And it didn't work for us. And but we tried it. like I said, that was actually our learnings on the affiliate space. Like affiliate is incredibly important for us, but not for us specifically. Again, for our category and our strategy and our margins and our business and the way it works.
It didn't work very well for us to go into the racketans, the honeys, the Capital One Shoppings, the the credit card offers. And that's that works great for some people. And it's fantastic. And it's you know, for them, you know, I think about the airline industry, right? And like for them, it's gonna be a very different dynamic on grabbing customers and just getting that next sale is so important. And for us, it's about building long-term relationships and getting subscribers.
Tye DeGrange (40:40.57)
Yes. Yes.
Logan Dunn (40:46.079)
Which happens on the back end. So we end up spending way more money on the front end. And maybe as we get like bigger and bigger and we have more money to spend, we'll we'll put money back into there. But it didn't work for us. So we shifted our our money to different kinds of affiliate strategies, like these micro influencer samples, playing really only with the bigger players, creating our own Discord network for these influencers. And that's what worked for us. So a hundred percent you have to be testing because if you just do what everyone says, you'll be like, What?
Tye DeGrange (41:06.661)
Love.
Love that.
Logan Dunn (41:14.433)
Why didn't this work? And it's because your business is your own and it's a little bit different than everyone else's.
Tye DeGrange (41:16.42)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (41:19.778)
Amen. Brilliant. Logan, just amazing like learnings, thoughtfulness, thinking around testing. always appreciate our our chats. just kind of coming down the home stretch of, you know, a few, you know, good things to get folks knowing you more, like we kicked off with. But is there anything from like a learning resource or AI or book or book recommendation that is just maybe top of mind? It doesn't have to be even work related, but is there
a book or resource that you're like, man, I want to share this with the audience.
Logan Dunn (41:53.16)
yeah, I saw this question. have a couple of thoughts. I think everyone should be investing in t learning time when it comes to the AI tools. If you think that using AI just to write, copy and create and do market research is is what you should, you're behind. you know, you really need to get into and there's there's free things on YouTube, but there's also like Coursera has some really easy, cheap courses to about learning the fundamentals of AI and more than fundamentals, like you gotta really get into like
Tye DeGrange (41:54.368)
What?
Logan Dunn (42:23.081)
Using AI for BI, using AI for research, and and I mean you've gotta really dig into the different topics. You gotta learn how to create agents that work with agents and creating tools and thinking of of AI as like replacing things that humans actually do rather than just being like a nice little assistant on the side. so I think that that's a incredibly important thing. And as far as books go, the one of the books that just is
stuck out to me. I read it since I've been here at Wise. I read it a few years ago, but it's and it's an older book. It was published in 2013, but it's called Trust Me, I'm Lying, Confessions of a Media Manipulator. and that book just opened my eyes to kind of the importance of following where the money goes and understanding that when it comes to how the media works and how to get earned media. and it's a fun read. Super fun read. The author is
He is very cheeky and irreverent. Yeah, so it's a good one to read. And it's a short read too, by the way. It's only like a couple hundred pages.
Tye DeGrange (43:26.148)
I love it. I will be adding that to my list today. That sounds too good.
I love that. Brilliant. Brilliant. dream dream trip or vacay, and we talked a little bit about mountains or any anything that you suggest or recall that was awesome.
Logan Dunn (43:44.267)
Yeah. I will say my wife and I recently went to Menorca, Spain, one of the Belaric Islands off the coast. That was a dream trip. We already did it. and our next dream trip is the Philippines. I've heard the Philippines is just amazing. It's safe to go there right now. we've had friends that have gone there and so that's that's where we're headed.
Tye DeGrange (43:57.231)
Awesome.
Tye DeGrange (44:00.859)
Love that.
Good for you. That's fantastic. Fantastic. Where can folks reach you if they wanna ask questions or connect and learn
Logan Dunn (44:13.559)
Yeah, just LinkedIn. LinkedIn's the easiest thing. I check it. I probably don't check it daily. It's not my job, right? I'm not in software sales. but I I'll I'll check it pretty regularly and get back to people.
Tye DeGrange (44:22.415)
Tye DeGrange (44:27.962)
Amazing. Logan, awesome to see you. And can't wait for more, man. Have an amazing rest of your week. Thank you for joining.
Logan Dunn (44:34.839)
Yeah, thanks.