The Weight Men Carry with Jake Ross, MSW, LISW-S

Show Notes

There’s a version of masculinity that looks strong on the outside but feels like silent overload on the inside. In this episode of Lumen, hosts Christopher Mooney, LCSW and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW are joined by Jake Ross, MSW, LISW-S, a therapist specializing in men’s mental health, to explore the invisible weight that many men carry. Drawing from Jake’s work with outwardly functioning but internally overwhelmed men, the conversation introduces what Jake calls the “Man Plate”: an expanding set of expectations placed on men today that ranges from provider and protector to emotionally available partner, engaged father, and steady presence under pressure. Christopher, Kenyon, and Jake examine how boys raised to value toughness and silence often become men who are expected to be emotionally fluent without ever being taught the language. They also explore Jake’s Appalachian lens, examining how regional values such as resilience, responsibility, loyalty, and community can serve as powerful protective factors against isolation, stoicism, shame, and unprocessed trauma. This episode offers a compassionate look at fatherhood, anxiety, emotional suppression, and the quiet cost of saying “I’m fine,” while offering practical ways for men to name what they’re carrying, reconnect with other men, and begin sharing a burden that was never meant to be carried alone.

To learn more about Jake Ross, MSW, LISW-S, visit the Ross Wellness Group website and connect with him on LinkedIn and Instagram. 

To book a free consultation with Christopher, Kenyon, or the other providers at Lumen Therapy Collective, visit lumentherapycollective.com. 

Follow Right Here on Instagram: @lumen_therapy_collective

Subscribe, share, and review Right Here on your favorite podcast platform!

Right Here is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or treatment. If you’re experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact local emergency services or a trusted mental health professional.

What is Right Here?

Right Here is a mental health podcast that explores the psychological patterns shaping our relationships, choices, and inner lives. Hosted by therapists Christopher Mooney, LCSW, and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW, each episode offers grounded, compassionate conversations rooted in clinical insight and real human experience. No jargon. No judgment. Just clear, thoughtful dialogue designed to help listeners better understand themselves and the people around them.

SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Mumen, a
podcast that sheds light on

mental health, relationships,
and what it means to be human.

I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW,
and I'm Kenyon Phillips, LMSW.

SPEAKER_03: Each episode we
unpack psychological patterns

that affect our relationships.

No jargon, no judgment.

SPEAKER_01: Just thoughtful
conversations to help you

understand yourself and others a
little more clearly.

SPEAKER_03: We are here with uh
somebody uh we are so excited to

be talking to today, a
like-minded uh therapist, uh

Jake Ross.

SPEAKER_01: Jake, we're so happy
you could join us today.

We I think we met on on LinkedIn
of all places, as as one is

supposed to these days.

And you know, I started reading
your posts and realized that we

I think we had so much overlap
in what Kenyon and I talk about

and a lot of the things you were
bringing up.

So, you know, we were like, hey,
we got to reach out to this guy

and and kind of see more of what
you're about.

So, you know, welcome, first of
all.

Tell us a little bit about you.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it.

Thank you so much for having me.

So I'm Jake Ross.

I'm in central Ohio.

I'm an L-I-S-W here in Ohio.

I'm also licensed in Virginia,
Florida, and Indiana.

And I'm really focused in my
practice, the Ross Wellness

Group, on men and men's mental
health, really niched down to

the millennial man, the new dad,
the new husband, the

high-pressure work environment,
trying to balance all the roles

and just really not feeling like
themselves.

And, you know, every day that
I'm doing it, I'm falling more

in love with this work.

Also very active on LinkedIn.

And I will say you two are some
of the many amazing connections

I've made there and couldn't
agree more on the overlap and

love getting in a room to talk
about this stuff that I'm so

passionate about with other
folks who are passionate about

it.

So thank you for the invite.

Amazing.

SPEAKER_03: Now I detect an
accent.

Jake, you want to talk about
your accent?

SPEAKER_00: Now that's a loaded
question.

So I am born and raised in
central Ohio.

I spent about 10 years down in
West Virginia getting my

degrees, and folks in West
Virginia told me I had an accent

because I talked like an Ohioan.

I think that, you know, we all
have little accents, but that

mine is just completely the
normal way to talk, which of

course is the funniest thing in
the world that A, there's a

normal anything, right, other
than sitting on the dryer.

And B, that we all have these
little idiosyncrasies that we do

in our speech, no matter where
we're from.

And I think it could be such a
cool way to get to know folks a

little bit.

But yeah, I think I carry a
little bit of my central Ohio

and a little bit of my
Appalachian that's in my DNA and

that's in my journey accent
around.

SPEAKER_03: I love that.

And we're going to come back to
the Appalachian aspect of your

journey and how it's motivated
you and inspired you and been a

huge part of your work.

But there's a version of
masculinity that you and Chris

and I have been talking about
that it looks strong from the

outside, but it feels uh it can
feel like a silent overwhelm or

overload from the inside.

We're talking about the
condition of being a man where

you're providing, you're
protecting, you're showing up.

But somewhere in all of that,
you're also carrying a certain

amount of anxiety that we don't
necessarily talk about.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's
this idea that you have all

these you you feel the pull for
all these responsibilities,

right?

And Jake, you mentioned like
that millennial, the millennial

man kind of like some of those
the responsibilities of hey, I

need to contribute, I need to,
you know, maintain and provide.

And then how do we how do we
actually deal with the anxiety

that that brings up?

How do we cope with it?

And Kenyon, you and I have
talked before about kind of what

that looks like, some of the
maladaptive ways that comes out

with anger and some other
maladaptive behaviors.

But Jake, what when you start to
think about the issues that men

deal with with mental health,
what are what are some of the

things that come up for you?

What are you seeing?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a great
question.

You know, I think for me, I've
been reflecting a lot lately.

I was I was diagnosed with ADHD
in December of uh last year, and

it's kind of really opened up my
perspective on my own

experience.

I've always been, you know, a
little sensitive, a little

emotionally connected, a little
whatever you want to call it,

but I felt a lot of big emotions
throughout my life, and it felt

like a defect.

You know, I felt like I wasn't
the man that I wanted to be.

I wasn't showing up as what I
thought I was supposed to show

up in the world.

And when I start to realize
where that message came from,

like, you know, that message
came from the TV shows I was

watching and the movies I was
seeing and my friends' ideas of

what it meant to be manly
whatever else.

And this year of my life has
been such a turning point of,

you know, actually being in
connection with all those

emotions, being able to talk
about them, know how they feel,

know what they do for me makes
me like a superhuman.

It's a superpower and it's not a
weakness.

It's a feature and it's not a
bug.

And I think 99.9% of the guys
who walk into my office are

thinking similar things, feeling
similar things, and throwing

that on the table and saying
that, right?

It's actually we're we're
tougher if we talk about it.

We're we're stronger if we ask
for help.

It really just kind of shifts
that whole paradigm.

SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that.

Yeah, absolutely.

Jake, I'm wondering, is that
were these things coming up for

you before you found your way
into this work, or was this

something that you were doing
this work in mental health, and

then all of a sudden you were,
you know, kind of reflecting on

it and you're like, hey, this
this is the thing that really

matters.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Another great one.

You know, I've been I've I got
working with a new therapist

about six months ago or so, and
it's my first opportunity to

explore internal family systems,
and I've been so intrigued by

IFS in general.

And can you give us a quick
breakdown?

SPEAKER_03: Because we're we're
committed to like being

jargon-free.

Can you just give it a quick
breakdown on what IFS is?

Internal family.

SPEAKER_00: Yes, thank you so
much for saying it.

I am trying to be jargon-free as
well.

I appreciate that.

Um, so internal family systems
is an evidence-based therapeutic

practice coined by Richard
Schwartz, and it's a lot of this

focus on we have these different
parts inside of us, you know,

these different parts that feel
like they're not manly enough,

that, you know, they're being
judged, that they're not going

to be accepted, whatever else.

But these parts start to get
into our psyche, they get into

our self-talk, and then they
drive our behavior.

I am a cognitive behavioral
therapist at the roots.

And in cognitive behavioral
therapy, everything is about you

have a thought, it makes you
have a feeling, and then you go

and do the action, right?

And that feeling is not bad.

It's the action.

When I go punch the wall because
I'm angry, that's when I end up

having negative consequences,
but having the anger isn't.

So I wheel all that together to
say I brought up internal family

systems because I think I was
born to do this work.

I don't remember a time that I
was not overly empathetic to

everything around me.

I don't remember a time that I
didn't want to help people.

I told people I wanted to be a
teacher when I was a kid because

it was like the thing I knew
that helped people.

I was before I found this field.

So I say all of that to say it's
been a 36-year journey of me

finding more and more out about
myself and feeling more and more

like I am in the exact right
place at the exact right time

until I take one more step
tomorrow, and then I'm even more

in that right place.

But it's kind of a combination.

I didn't really get into my own
mental health journey until I

was 27.

So I would say for the first 27
years of my life, I was feeling

all these things, witnessing all
these things, and not

understanding them.

And for the last nine, I am
actively trying to unwind and

understand them all.

And as I do that, I realize I'm
not the anomaly.

You know, I sent a text to my
two best friends who had kids

before I did when my daughter
was born, and I was just like,

what do we do, guys?

Like, this is hard.

And they're just like, oh yeah,
dude, we we've had a side text

chat going on without you since
both of our kids were born,

because this is really hard and
exhausting, and we need one

another.

And I'm like, we're best
friends, and I had no idea that

you guys were struggling.

And I'm actually a therapist.

Like, I could talk to you about
some skills that might work with

this struggle.

Like, let's all talk about this
more.

So I really like that it's as we
normalize it more, it's just

more of walking into the same
rooms with the same people and

realizing that they're having
the same struggles as us.

We just weren't saying it.

SPEAKER_01: That's incredible.

Not saying it and not and and
not feeling like they could

reach out, right?

Like people kind of like not
feeling that there is that there

are other people to kind of
include in that circle.

SPEAKER_00: Like it's a flaw,
like it's a weakness, like, you

know, I haven't talked to anyone
who's got two kids under five

and is trying to work full time.

And it's like, actually, I wake
up every morning and I'm like,

this is cake.

I'm not stressed about anything.

You know, there's no burning
fires, there's no thing that I'm

not gonna be able to take care
of.

Like, this is hard if you have
all the money in the world, if

you have all the support in the
world.

No matter what you have, it's
still hard.

And what does not talking about
it do for us?

You know, I think for me, that's
another bit of my full circle

moment.

My my second child is my son,
and he's gonna be two in June,

and he's likely gonna have some
of these same things that I

have, and I don't want him to
feel like I did for the first 27

years of his life.

So I'm gonna model that it's
fine to say, man, I got broken

up with by that girl I thought
was the love of my life in fifth

grade, and it's caused me a lot
of negative emotions, and let's

talk about those and what we do
with them.

SPEAKER_03: Totally.

My heart got tranced in fifth
grade too.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that seems to
be.

I think mine was actually I'm
gonna go mine was in first

grade.

SPEAKER_03: Destroyed.

SPEAKER_01: Destroyed.

Ooh.

Girl ratted me out.

I was I was I was joking with
one of my friends writing

writing bad words on a piece of
paper.

Ooh, and she brought the she
brought the piece of paper to

the teacher and uh I can't trust
her anymore.

Destroyed.

Oh yeah, it was over from that
life therapy.

I had to become a therapist
after that one.

SPEAKER_03: I love it too that
you're modeling vulnerability,

Jake, because I just want to I
love seeing men model

vulnerability and that you
reframe it as courage.

Like, hey, this is the brave,
tough thing to do is to talk

about the hard stuff and to ask
for help.

That is just to me, that's so
brilliant.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.

And you know, it's funny.

I think I'm just putting this
connection together as we're

talking, but y'all don't know
because we've only met behind

the computer.

But I'm like six, five, and I
used to be like 300 pounds.

I've lost about 100 pounds in
the last year, which has been

another part of my journey.

But I've always been this like
really large guy with a really

deep, loud voice.

But you know, everyone always is
like, oh yeah, he's just like

the big teddy bear.

Like I've never been the
masculine, I'm gonna throw my

weight around, I'm gonna be this
really big tough guy.

And it's all worked out for me.

So why do we think that we have
to be that way, right?

And what do we get out of being
that way?

SPEAKER_03: That's a wonderful
point to make.

You definitely give teddy bear
vibes.

And modeling again, modeling
something other than the big

tough guy is so important,
especially for future

generations of men.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's
that's kind of the key.

Uh, you know, as we I think
about that all the time with my

own kids, my daughter and my
son.

And my son actually turned 10
today.

So I'm like, I this is this is
really appropriate as I'm going

through and kind of like
reflecting back on uh his his

process and and our relationship
together and just kind of the

messaging.

We were we were camping this
weekend for Cup Scouts are out

in the rain and it's 40 degrees,
it's super cold.

And so at so many points I was
thinking like, hey, is this is

this where I I would have
thought like hey, you gotta just

toughen up and get through it or
do I be a little more caring?

Like there's it's it's at every
level.

It's like dealing with the hard
stuff, but then it's also

dealing with this, the the small
things in life.

And how do you how do you convey
to your kid what is appropriate?

And and sometimes you do want to
say, Yeah, you gotta get up and

brush yourself off and keep
going, but other times you have

to be a little more caring.

So it's trying to find that
balance too.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

And I love that.

Like, you know, I'm so huge on
resilience.

I know we're gonna talk a lot
about Appalachia, but a lot

about what I love about
Appalachia is the resilience.

And, you know, I I that's such a
great example of we can say,

like, okay, that was tough and
and let's get to the other side,

right?

I my daughter's four years old.

I'm pretty sure she's 14 with
the way that she interacts

emotionally.

And I just always say, hey,
we're having a big feeling.

Let me know when you're ready to
get to the other side, right?

If you want to run around
screaming, throwing stuff for a

minute, go for it.

And then let's sit down and
let's talk about what we were

feeling and what was going on,
and let's show that we have that

resilience to learn from it and
to move forward.

And I think that's the
difference of rub some dirt on

it, suck it up versus, oh, that
really had to hurt.

How are you doing?

How can we get better?

And it's probably gonna happen
again.

How are we gonna bounce back
quicker next time, right?

Get knocked down seven times,
stand up eight, whatever that

old analogy is.

But yeah, I really love that
resilience frame there.

SPEAKER_03: I do too.

And one of the again, one of the
focus points that you you've

talked about is like, okay,
there's going back to men,

outwardly functioning men who
are kind of like internally

overwhelmed.

Is that a fair way to put it?

SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_03: And you have this
idea, the man plate.

This concept, which I love man
plates.

About what men are caring now.

And and uh we're we're big into
food metaphors, right?

We talked about the negativity
buffet in another episode.

So yeah, I'd love to hear about
the man plate.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's a
funny thing that just totally

has taken on a life of its own
and it fits so well.

But you know, the example I
give, I my dad is an awesome

dad.

I really could not ask for much
better of a dad, except for the

fact that we never really talked
about like emotional

regulations, and he told me this
second half and push-throughs

sometimes, and he was doing the
best of what he had, right?

I don't hold it against him, but
he was also traveling 70% of the

year because, you know, I don't
know if you can tell.

I never wanted for anything.

I had a very privileged
childhood, got to do everything

I wanted, got to go to school
where I wanted all those good

things, right?

So he was providing, he was
protecting, he was being a

husband to my mom, he was being
a dad to me and my sister, and

he did all those things well.

And I think he was exhausted,
right?

I think it was still a really
tiring experience.

And what he didn't do was be
that emotional grounding

presence.

He didn't have those
conversations.

When that girl broke my heart in
fifth grade, I was talking to my

mom about it, right?

And I don't want to be that for
my kids.

I want my kids to know I'm
always here, I'm the steady

place.

You can talk to me about
anything.

But that's like a really big
piece of the plead, right?

Like I talk about it like it's
real easy.

And hey, just come do therapy
with me and we'll get there in

no time.

Like it's a continuous
improvement project.

I'm working on that every day,
and I think it's like I threw a

big old porter house on my stake
that was already full with

entrees and sides.

And now what do I do, right?

Do I do I move something off?

Like I guess I could just quit
working, right?

We don't need money to make sure
that they're emotionally

regulated.

We can be homeless and they have
really good emotional regulation

and we'll be okay.

Like, I don't think that's gonna
work out well.

I can not show up as the the
husband that cares about my

relationship and and then see
what happens there, right?

But I don't think that's gonna
turn out well.

I could not care about
protecting them.

I can just say, yeah, anyone can
be around you at any time and

people can walk into our house,
whatever.

Like, no matter what, I'm gonna
have the negative consequence.

So my plate didn't get bigger.

You know, I work remotely, where
I hop from meeting to meeting on

the hour, and I work way more
than I should because I can

always hop on my computer at any
point in time, right?

So all of those pieces also grew
while we threw on this big old

porterhouse steak and said, get
through it, deal with it, and

don't eat it too quick, because
then you'll get sick, right?

Like what's my perfect playbook
here?

SPEAKER_03: Right.

Right.

Less cream spinach, I guess.

SPEAKER_00: I can't remember
that.

SPEAKER_03: I love cream
spinach, so I know.

SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say
that's better than steak for me.

SPEAKER_03: Right.

Seriously.

So we're basically our what I'm
getting this is the sense that

our responsibilities as men have
expanded.

Nothing's been removed.

And how do you help men with
this?

Like, what do we what do we have
to acknowledge to to kind of

make this easier or make this
livable?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I
think the first thing is

acknowledging that suck, right?

Like we we have to say that this
is hard and we have to talk

about it, and we have to know
that I don't know about y'all,

seven days in the week, I
wouldn't say that four of them.

I am on the clean plate club.

I did everything that I wanted
to, and I'm proud of all of it,

right?

And and that's okay too, right?

We're gonna show up as 120% of
ourselves some days, and we're

gonna show up as 60% of
ourselves some days.

And how do we make sure that the
overall average is an area that

we're happy with?

I really enjoy doing the man
plate audit.

Let's look at your man plate,
right?

What is your mashed potatoes?

What is your cream spinach?

What is your porterhouse steak?

And then look at your values,
right?

I mean, if you all can't tell, I
love what I do.

Like I legitimately think I was
born to do this.

The only thing that I love more
than this is being a dad to my

two wonderful children.

So when I'm working through
dinner because I'm so passionate

about providing for them, is it
really matching up with my

values?

Because now they're not seeing
me at dinner.

We're not doing our daily
gratitude exchange at dinner.

Like I'm I'm losing out there
and I'm trying to spin it and

say, well, it's important
because I'm providing and I'm

doing this thing that I love,
but is it really what I value in

the right priority?

And I think when we go through
that audit, we start to see, oh,

well, I keep saying yes to this
person who, you know, wants to

randomly hang out with me when
it works for their time.

And maybe that's not a value of
mine.

Maybe I would rather take care
of myself, take care of my kids,

give myself a break, rest,
right?

Like we didn't even talk about
what what part of that plate is

our rest, what part of that
plate is our self-care, our

relationships outside of our
family and our spouses, right?

SPEAKER_01: Right, right, right.

Jake, I'm wondering.

So you're talking about like
this audit and kind of finding

the what the cream spinach is,
what the potatoes are, you know,

you go through and kind of
identify what's on the plate

now.

What do you think has changed
over the generations?

Like are have have the
responsibilities themselves

actually changed?

Are the things that we're
responsible responsible for

changed?

Or is it just different portions
of it?

Or is it both?

SPEAKER_00: That's a great
question.

I do I do think that they've
changed.

You know, I I cut my teeth in
social work and child welfare.

So I've heard a lot about what
happens to kids in this world.

So I'm like the most paranoid
dad in the world, right?

My daughter asked me the other
day, like, when can she go sleep

over at so-and-so's house?

And I'm like, oh, when you're
28, I don't know.

We're not giving sleepovers,
right?

I worked with juvenile sex
offenders for four years.

I'm not letting you into
anyone's house that I'm not eyes

on supervision.

So I think that part of it, on
top of like the, you know, I do

some work and some training
around teenagers and kiddos, and

I think about this like I was in
high school 20 years ago, and I

could go run around these
streets of the neighborhood and

nobody worried about anything
that was happening.

And like, we don't have that
now.

You know, I've got a fenced-in
backyard that I don't really let

my kids play in unless I am out
there watching them.

Like, there's so much paranoia
about everything that's

happening.

And then I'll bring on or bring
back the like, you know, I think

COVID and the pandemic just
changed our world of work.

It was already drifting a little
bit.

I was fortunate to be in a
remote role before COVID made

everyone remote, but I haven't
gone to an office in eight

years.

You know, I rent an office
part-time.

I haven't gone to an office for
a 40-hour work week since 2018.

And I love it.

I love the freedom that it gives
me.

I love that it allows me to do,
you know, laundry and dishes

during the workday sometimes,
things that like I don't think

my dad had a chance to do when
he was working, right?

But it also makes it so easy to
say, oh, the kids are down.

And, you know, my daughter said
to me the other night, like, why

are you always working after we
go to sleep?

And I'm like, because my goal is
that we're gonna have this

amazing thing that none of us
has to work if we don't want to.

And if you guys want to come do
this with me when you're adults,

then you can.

And I don't want to do it when
you're awake because I love

having that time with you.

So I do it when you're asleep
and when you're at school.

And, you know, that hurts.

That hurts to say, but back to
my man plate, back to my

priorities, back to my values.

I don't want to miss one
sporting event when they are

teenagers.

So I'm trying to build this
business that will allow me to

have that freedom of time.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

And it's like it's it's this
constant process, I think, that

we get quite in of trying to
give our children something we

we either didn't have or we
wanted to be different.

Right.

And that's and that's where I
think we get kind of I don't

know, that's always uh a focus
for me.

I look at like, you know, what
was my experience growing up?

What, you know, what what did I
have?

What did I want still?

What where do I feel if there
was any kind of deficit or even

just a discrepancy in that?

And and and kind of how do I
provide my kids with that too?

And that's what I hear in what
you're saying is like, hey, I

still had what I needed for the
most part, but there were a

couple of these things that I
just I want this to be different

for my kids.

SPEAKER_00: That's so spot on,
and I keep telling my parents in

the nicest way possible that
they've set me up for failure

and that I want better for my
kids than I had.

And I just told you I had it
pretty darn good.

So how do I make it better,
right?

I mean, one thing is I'm gonna
get them the emotional

regulation piece, they're gonna
know that we can talk about

that.

But that's really easy for me,
right?

I can do that in my sleep,
making sure that I can pay for

them to get two degrees in a
state that's not Ohio, making

sure that I can always be here
to support them in any way that

they need.

Like, I I had this awesome
childhood, and I still have

lingering impacts from that, and
I want better from my kids.

And I also have this like pie in
the sky idea that my kids aren't

gonna be 36, talking about how I
messed them up when they were

kids, right?

Like, that's gonna happen
inevitably.

My kids are gonna talk about how
we talked about too many

emotions, right?

I was I was too emotionally
connected for them.

But back to the values and the
being a dad is my most important

job, and being a good dad is my
number one priority.

So, how do I do that?

And how do I do that while still
keeping all the other plates

spinning?

SPEAKER_03: I can so relate to
that.

Yeah, I can so relate to that.

And and uh I'm somebody who
never thought I was gonna have

children.

And so to have them in my early
40s, I have two has been the

great.

I mean, it at the time I didn't
think I could handle it because

I was so caught up in I'm gonna
scrum up.

I don't, you know, I've got to
do better, I gotta do better

than I had.

And the reality is it's like I'm
learning as I go and thank

Hopefully I can ask for help.

And I just love how you're
again, again and again here in

this discussion modeling I
aspire to be emotionally present

for my children, emotionally
regulated, offer them everything

that you know that I want them
to have, that I hope for.

I've heard that our children
become who they are because of

and in spite of who we are as
parents.

SPEAKER_01: I think that's I
that sounds like the right

equation, which is which means
you have you have very little

control or but you assume all of
the responsibility.

It must have been because of me.

And then anything that anything
good that happened will have to

my wife.

This idea of like, you know, our
kids are not 50-50 split of us

either.

They are they are their own kind
of being, they're their own

entity, they have their own they
have their own resilience.

How else do kids come out of
some really awful situations and

do wonderful things or just
different from what their

families are?

So we have to remember that too,
I think, as parents, that we we

can certainly impact and and you
know kind of inform how our kids

develop and grow and and the per
the person they become.

There is another factor in that.

It's not a 50-50 split.

Absolutely.

Right.

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: And speaking of you
know things that uh children go

through, Jake, you referenced uh
earlier, uh, you know,

Appalachian uh your experience
in social work and you know,

seeing what what kids go
through.

And I'd love to hear more about
that.

And I'd also love to hear how
those Appalachian values can

also, you mentioned resilience
can also be protective factors.

And you know, it would just be
great to hear a little bit more

about that because I've read
Demon Copperhead, but that's the

extent of my which is an amazing
book and I highly recommend it

to anybody.

One of the Pulitzer for a
reason.

But yeah, it would be great to
just hear more from you in terms

of your lived experience with
it.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%.

I'm gonna go on a bit of a
winding road because it all ties

back together.

But also, please read Demon
Copperhead if you haven't.

Also, what you're getting wrong
about Appalachia is a really

interesting read after reading
Demon Copperhead.

So I, you know, again, born to
do this, really privileged,

lucky, every ball has bounced my
way my entire life.

I had an opportunity to go do an
internship in a residential

treatment facility when I was
17, 18 years old out in Camden,

New Jersey, which, if you don't
know Camden, New Jersey, look it

up.

Um very rough area.

You know, at the time when I was
there, I think it had one of the

highest crime rates of the
country.

And I'm from central Ohio in
this little suburb that's very

privileged and safe and whatever
else, right?

So I walk into this facility and
I see these teenagers that are

living here being supervised
24-7, and I'm like, wait, they

did they did that thing?

Like, I was doing that thing
with my friends last week, and

nobody told us we had to go live
somewhere that we were

supervised 24-7.

Oh, because we had parents that
had resources and knowledge and

time and ability to tell us what
we were doing wrong to keep us

from getting into more trouble,
whatever else.

And it was just this realization
of we all are born and we have a

set of cards in our hand, and
they are not all equal.

And I was born with close to a
royal flush, and these kids were

sitting with a two and a seven
off suit and trying to figure it

out.

And I think that's what really
got me into and passionate about

the field of social work.

So I got to go redo that
experience for a couple summers,

about three summers between high
school and starting college.

And then I go down to Marshall
in Appalachia.

It was my only backup school.

Ohio State didn't accept me.

I'm still a really big Bukar
fan, but at that point in time I

thought I was too good to go to
Ohio State if they didn't want

me at main campus.

And I'll still tell you they
missed out.

I mean, look at all I'm doing,
right?

Resilience in action, folks.

Exactly.

And I wouldn't be doing any of
this if it weren't for that

experience.

So I'm also thankful for Ohio
State.

So I went down to Marshall, and
it's about three-hour drive from

Columbus into Huntington, West
Virginia.

And I pull in and it's just
like, I did a three-hour drive,

but was I in a DeLorean?

Did I hit a time machine?

Something like something
changed, right?

It feels very different in
Huntington than it does in

Columbus and way more than 180
miles difference.

And a part of that is
Appalachia.

And it was really weird at first
trying to understand what was

going on, why I was feeling that
way.

Also, like feeling more
comfortable, feeling like

everything was a little bit
slower, a little bit more at

ease.

The people were really nice,
right?

I always make the uh
juxtaposition of like walking

through the streets of
Huntington versus walking

through the streets of New York
City.

Like in Huntington, people stop
you and say, Hey, do you want to

come over and have dinner with
us?

Because you seem like a nice
person.

And in New York City, I like
think someone's going to fight

me because I smiled at them.

And it's just a really hard
dynamic for my Appalachian roots

to get used to.

But while I was down there, I
said, I'm gonna try to do some

more social work.

So I found this amazing
nonprofit, Children's Home

Society of West Virginia.

They've been around since 1896.

They do really great work.

And I had the opportunity to
work there about the entire time

I was in school, which also
helped with my bachelor's and my

master's.

They paid for a part of my
degree since I was getting

social work degrees.

I was able to do all my
internships within the system.

So I got to learn about
everything that we did.

Emergency shelters for kiddos,
you know, seven to 17 that

needed a short-term to midterm
stop between placements, foster

care and adoption.

I got to open up foster homes,
open up adoptive homes.

I finalized something like 30
adoptions while I was down

there, which was still the
coolest thing I've ever done in

my career.

And I miss it so much.

And then I got to go work at
like the advocacy advocacy

legislative level in working for
six nonprofits throughout West

Virginia.

So that was really when I fell
in love with the Appalachian

culture.

I did a lot of work and research
on, you know, coal companies

that came in and took our
valuable resources and didn't

really invest in the community
to make sure that it was going

to be okay.

And that's part of why
Huntington felt so different

being 180 miles away from
Columbus.

And then how that was happening
with resident treatment

facilities and with kiddos in
care.

They were going out of state.

The state of West Virginia was
paying for their care.

Kiddo was coming back, and there
was no investment in our

community, so they ended up in
the same situation that they

were.

And that's really where I
started to see this has been

happening to Appalachia forever.

People from the outside look at
it and say people are stupid,

dumb, rednecks, they don't have
any money, they don't understand

how to pull themselves out of
this, they're drug addicts,

whatever else it might be.

But in reality, like I will
argue with anyone that it's the

best, best region in our country
for sure, maybe the best region

in the world, and part of that
is the people, and part of that

is the nature, and that
resilience that has shown up

after outsiders come in, judge
us, take from us, leave us with

nothing.

And we just say, cool, what's
next?

Right?

You want to go fishing today?

You want to go on a hike?

You wanna go replant our field
because we don't have anything

growing, right?

Like we don't let that slow us
down.

And if you can be resilient in
the face of that, then what

can't you be resilient in the
face of, right?

And that's why I'm so passionate
about the culture and the

resilience.

There's also a lot of other
Appalachian values that I'm big

on, you know, love of place.

I always joked that I would
never come back to central Ohio

after I graduated high school
and I moved back here in 2016.

So, you know, I love this place.

And I also feel very conflicted
that I am just two counties away

from the Appalachian region, and
all I do is talk about

Appalachia.

Like, I just want to move an
hour over into one of those

counties where I can say I'm
actually living in Appalachia

again, right?

But I love place and I love
being a friend that people say

is a good friend and a family
member that people say they're

proud to be a part of their
family.

And those are all Appalachian
values, right?

Familiism, making people
comfortable when they're in your

home, all of those things that
back to the human condition,

right?

We're we're all suffering from
this condition.

We're all social beings.

I think Appalachia does such a
great job of harnessing that.

The only thing that they don't
do a great job of is talking

about when it's hard and, you
know, really being open to

discussing all the downsides of
that and the difficulties of

that, right?

We have the highest suicide rate
in the country.

The diseases of despair are
through the roof, all of which

makes sense given the things
that we just listed off for why

that resilience is important.

But I'm hopeful that I can get
us talking about all those

things more and really harness
the power of the region.

SPEAKER_01: Jake, you mentioned
diseases of despair.

What are those?

SPEAKER_00: The diseases of
despair are suicide rate,

cardiovascular issues, and
substance addiction issues.

unknown: Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: Wow.

That's just incredible.

I'm thinking my head's kind of
reeling from all the the

protective factors, the strength
that are regional, that are

values, that that that people
that Appalachia uh breeds.

And then there's this there's
also, I guess, uh from what you

just said, an understanding that
strength is stoicism, not

talking about it, just quietly
suffering, and unfortunately

that results in the risk factors
you just lifted off, including

suicide.

I guess my question now, and I
kind of know the answer for what

you've been saying, is how do
these Appalachian values that

you've had such incredible
experiences with, how do you use

them to help men, you know, your
male clients who are struggling

with the man plate, overload,
not being able to talk, et

cetera?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, it's
so funny.

You asked me the question of
like, you know, how I got into

this and I started talking about
being born to do it and whatever

else.

And like from this peak of my
life journey, mountain, looking

back, it's like you were you
were chopping down trees on your

way up, right?

Like it was such a clear path
that I couldn't see then.

But all of my work in general, I
attribute to my papa, who I lost

to suicide when I was seven.

And that was such a traumatic
event for me, partially because

he was my best friend.

I mean, he picked me up from
school every day.

You know, both my parents worked
and my grandma worked, so he was

kind of like my babysitter, and
we spent so much time together.

And my wonderful family didn't
do well of talking about

processing that with a
seven-year-old.

Again, empathize if I have to
try to have that conversation

with either of my kids at seven,
I am not gonna have the tools.

And I went to school for six
years to have the tools, right?

But it made such a gigantic mark
on me, and that is really what I

carried for 20 years until I
finally started doing my own

mental health work.

So I say all that to say I do a
little bit of training and

speaking on the side, and I had
this call of, hey, we're looking

for a trainer to talk about
resilience and trauma-exposed

youth in Appalachia.

From Miami University of Ohio, a
big university here, and I was

really excited about it.

And I'm like, wait a second.

I w I've worked with trauma my
whole life.

My master's is in rural
Appalachian social work, and I

love resilience.

Like, I think I am the most
well-suited person to do this

training.

So I start putting it together,
and I'm like, I need to figure

out all of my life history as
I'm talking about some of these

stories and everything else.

And that leads me to realize my
papa is uh was the Appalachian

man, right?

Born in Tennessee, lived there
most of his life.

They were living in Steubenville
when I was born.

Steubenville is in Ohio, in one
of the Appalachian counties,

very much an Appalachian region
city here in Ohio.

And then they moved to Columbus
right after I was born because

now there was, I think, five
grandkids in the central Ohio

area and they wanted to help
out.

And, you know, looking back, I
start to realize I think taking

my papa out of Appalachia
definitely didn't help with what

he was dealing with, right?

And then he had to stop doing a
business, stop being the

provider, and let his wife go
make the money and be like the

stay-at-home grandpa in what,
1995, for a guy that grew up in,

you know, the the 50s and 60s
and 40s.

Like that had to be a really
difficult pill to swallow.

And now that comes full circle
for me of, oh man, what what was

he thinking?

And why wasn't he talking to
anybody about it?

And did he know that you don't
have to act like the tough guy?

You don't have to be the
provider, you don't have to have

everything put together.

You could have gone and said,
hey, I'm really struggling with

this transition.

What should I do?

So I think there's a large part
of me that wants to be the

therapist that I could have
gotten my papa to come talk to

before all that happened.

I think there's a large part of
me that wants to be the

therapist that I could have
talked to for the first 26 years

of my life before I got to do
it.

And I really want to be the
therapist that all of the guys

out there that are dealing with
similar things can talk to.

But I was in Marietta doing
Marietta, Ohio is right on the

Ohio River and is in Appalachia
as well.

And I was doing a presentation
there, and I'm sitting in this

like, you know, tiny hotel room,
stuffy, I don't like it,

whatever.

But I'm just like, I feel more
at peace right here than I do in

my house that I have built
around everything that I love.

So I make sure I get my dopamine
hits anytime I take a step.

And what is it, right?

And it's like that I am in
Appalachia.

And how we define the
Appalachian culture, you know,

the ARC, the Appalachian
Regional Commission, has a

outline of all the counties
across the 13th state region

that are considered Appalachian
counties, but there's a lot of

discourse on what's really
Appalachia, what's not, right?

But something about crossing
into that culture, into that

region, is freeing for me, is
makes me lighter.

And I feel it when I go to
Hawking Hills for a weekend with

friends, I feel it.

When I go to West Virginia to go
back to the people that I met

while I was in school, I feel
it.

And when I'm in Columbus, where
my entire amazing support system

is, my whole business has been
built, all of these things, I

love it here.

I love my life, but I don't feel
that lightness, that calmness,

that quietness.

And I just think that there is
something so powerful about

that.

SPEAKER_03: The love of place
that you highlight there.

Yeah, I really feel that
palpably.

And thank you for telling the
story of your pop-pa and the the

dangers too, inherent in that
tale of emotional suppression,

writing, like pushing down our
feelings instead of processing

them, talking about them and the
unbearable stress uh and

disconnection that that can lead
to.

How much how big a role in terms
of the again, I keep going back

to men.

But you know, in terms of the
men you're working with how big

a role does connection play?

Because Chris and I love to talk
about cultivating connection,

right?

Just as a general therapeutic
practice, but particularly with

men.

And we did it, we did a whole
episode, episode seven, uh of

Boys Don't Cry about how men,
how do we get men to talk?

So I love that one.

Part of it, thank you.

And part yeah, that's how we
started talking, probably.

But connection was a big part of
that.

SPEAKER_01: It was.

And then also recognizing, you
know, the the words I'm fine or

the two settings we have, which
is just silence or anger.

Right.

Right now, that's that emotional
suppression.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: It's all just it it
just comes out or it boils and

boils and boils until it comes
out as anger or something

explosive.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

How do you cultivate connection
with your clients, Jake, and

encourage them in that way?

SPEAKER_00: And I love that, you
know, anger versus suppression,

like the amount of guys that
come in and say, I don't really

feel any emotions.

Like, really, what's the last
time you got pissed off?

Like, oh, on my way here,
somebody cut me off.

Like, okay, so you feel that
one.

We're really in tune to that
one.

Can we try to find one other
one, right?

But I'm so big on connection.

I I have this thing called the
Millennial Man's Playbook.

It's like 10 skills traits that
I think if we have life's a

little bit easier.

And the first one is the trusted
tribe, right?

And I am pretty big on I think
your trusted tribe can be as

large or as small as you want
it.

I like to keep like a
medium-sized, cultivated one

because I care about having that
depth of relationship.

But again, I'm so fortunate and
lucky in every ball bouncing my

way.

I, my two best friends that I
was talking about with the

kiddos, like we met when I was
15, and they were they're a year

older than me, so they went to
Marshall the year before me.

So that was why I went to
Marshall.

And here we are 21 years later,
and we're still great friends,

right?

And I know that everyone doesn't
have that.

Like I laugh about the we're
only friends because we were

happened to be born in the same
place and go to the same school,

right?

But now we have turned it into
this amazing relationship.

And I lean on them all of the
time in my most difficult

seasons of life.

They are the people that I am
talking to.

And, you know, we joke, like
sometimes it's the the brosetta

stone language, right?

The talking crap and making me
take it and we're laughing.

And there's a part of me that's
like, damn, I wish my friends

like could just, you know, care
and have a real conversation

with me.

And there's another part that's
like, they're they're doing the

best that they can and they're
trying to make me laugh because

they know that I'm about to cry.

And I appreciate that, right?

But I love the idea of the
trusted tribe.

If people don't have it, I
really try to get them to

cultivate one.

Even if it's one person that you
felt like you were close to at

one point in time, shoot them a
text and don't say, Did you see

that basketball game last night?

Say, What's up?

How are you doing?

Hey, do you have a minute to
chat?

I'm dealing with some heavy
stuff, right?

I don't think anyone says, like,
no.

Nope, I don't want to talk to
you.

No, I'm not gonna be that person
for you.

But I'm also really big and I'm
doing some work here in Central

Ohio that I hope I have more to
talk about soon on third spaces.

There's no third space for guys
my age.

And when I say third space, I
mean we are at home a lot, we're

at work a lot.

And what's the other place that
we go, right?

I can put on a great event that
says, hey, you want to come make

some male friends and talk about
what's going on in your life,

and I'll be there, right?

And I'll make friends with
myself and I enjoy hanging out

with myself, so that'll work.

But guys won't come to that.

How do I say, let's do this
thing that's gonna be fun?

And also maybe you find someone
that has a similar interest to

you, right?

I'd suggest for my guys a lot to
go on that meetup site, right?

Find a find a hiking group and
go hiking and try to talk to one

person.

I just I think the more that we
try to make those connections,

the easier it becomes.

But how do we put it in an easy
spot in this super virtual

world?

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

It and it's also normalizing it,
right?

It's it's normalizing this idea
that we can go and we don't have

to be, you know, we can go and
just kind of hang out there.

It it there's not some
preconceived kind of.

Yeah, where you have to go and
talk, you have to go and open

up, you have to go and like it's
it's not like you know, there's

gonna be a therapist there
making everybody share, but it's

this idea that, hey, we can just
go hang out, we can go hike, we

can go fish, we can go do
whatever.

We can we can go knit if that's
what you're interested in, like

anything.

Right.

Just making and making that all
okay.

And and it's kind of like, yeah,
I like that idea, Jake.

This kind of like creating this
this environment that the it

kind of restores that sense of
community again.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

And you know, the part that I
have to say is probably the

coolest is I thoroughly believe
this is infectious.

You know, guys come into my
office, I will always tout that

I prior to prioritize the
therapeutic relationship because

it's the only data point that
really shows that it gets us to

the successful outcomes.

I think they start to feel that
connection here in the

therapeutic relationship sense
and they realize that it's

valuable.

And then they come in the next
week and they say, you know, I

actually talked to this buddy of
mine and we're gonna go out with

him and two other people, and
we're all gonna sit down and

have a have a beer, have a meal,
and and talk about everything

that's going on, right?

And it's like, sweet.

I didn't just get one person to
be passionate about connection,

I got them to go talk to others
about it and really snowball it,

which is a really fun
experience.

And I also think it's that I use
this example often because it

makes me laugh really hard.

I think that I am successful in
my business because guys want to

come talk to guys when they
finally want to get into

therapy.

But I've had five therapists in
my life and one of them was a

guy, and I saw him like twice
and said, I don't want to see

you anymore.

And I don't want to admit to it.

But I think there's a part of me
that thinks, I can't go talk to

another therapist who's also a
man and tell him I'm struggling.

What if he wants to take my
family?

What if he wants to take my
business?

What if like why is that in my
head?

Why do I think everybody wants
to take anything?

Yeah, exactly.

100%.

So, you know, I think that's
such a barrier for the guy who

talks about it every day and how
it shouldn't be a thing, it's a

barrier.

What does it feel like for the
one that hasn't even been able

to come to terms with why
they're feeling that way?

SPEAKER_01: Right.

That's a really interesting
point.

You know, I was just thinking
like when I said, like, oh, what

if he thinks you're weak?

I'm thinking of that like how we
just we have preconceived

notions about who's nurturing
and who's not.

And this idea that it's uh it's
almost like this idea that men

can't be nurturing, right?

That we we can't we can't have
our emotional uh part exist.

We can't be nurturing and still
be strong.

It has to be one or the other.

And that's that's not true.

Both can coexist.

We can be strong, we can we can
still have all the

responsibilities that we that we
have on our plate, but we can

still be nurturing and in touch
with our emotions and say, hey,

this is hard.

I'm gonna keep doing it, but
it's really hard.

And do you go through that,
right?

That's but I I I think we we
probably walk around with a lot

of these preconceived ideas and
and feelings about that.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

And that competitiveness.

Thank you for highlighting that,
Jake.

I hadn't even occurred to it,
but it it's there.

It's Heinbrain stuff, maybe,
from like early man or

something.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01: Or just kind of
ingrained generationally, you

know, that's or both, probably.

Or both, right, or both.

SPEAKER_00: Like there's just as
much of a likelihood that my

female therapist is gonna think
that I'm a weak baby for talking

about it, or that she's gonna
think maybe I should niche down

to the millennial man because
I'm not as stressed as this guy

is.

I can go take all his business,
right?

But that's how it doesn't cross
my mind because she's a female,

and in my rational mind, like
that sounds a little ridiculous,

but it is definitely what
happens in my lizard brain.

SPEAKER_03: Totally.

I love it.

Well, thank you so much for
joining us today and sharing.

What I'm getting from you is
just like all these tools, you

know, that are that are so
wonderful and so much

permission, you know, modeling
permission that, hey, it's okay

to say I'm not fine all the time
and help.

And that these are actually
tremendously courageous things

we can do uh for ourselves and
for our kids, you know, for our

families, for our partners, for
everybody who's in our community

and in our family we care about.

There's that idea that it it is
really time for this idea to

just be put to bed, I believe.

You know, that like uh uh Strong
man is you know unmoved and

stoic.

And I love stoic philosophy,
don't get me wrong.

But being able to model, hey, I
need support, I need help.

And I love too that you are the
teddy bear six foot five guy who

aspires to be emotionally
available to his kids and to his

everybody in his in its circle.

I certainly I certainly share
that aspiration.

SPEAKER_01: Jake, I'm wondering
what are some things that people

should look for if they if
they're like, hey, maybe this

kind of makes sense for me.

Maybe I've been bottling stuff
up, maybe I've been feeling this

this way.

SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Yeah.

I mean, you know, I think it's
about being honest with

yourself, right?

Do it on a the drive into work.

Don't don't turn the radio on
and sit with your thoughts and

your feelings for five minutes
and just see what's coming up,

right?

Like when I get in my worst
spots, I it feels like I am just

waking up and checking boxes
until I get to go to sleep and

check boxes again, right?

And I thought that feeling was
normal.

I thought I was doing a good job
to keep pushing through it, but

I don't feel like that now.

It's like I get to wake up and
and draw what the box is going

to be and then jump into it.

So really being able to sit with
those feelings, be honest with

yourself and hold yourself
accountable to what is going on.

And I think give yourself the
permission that it's okay to not

even know if you need it or not,
right?

I the way that I set up my
practice is I do a free

30-minute consult call before
you get booked.

So it's like, you know,
absolutely no pressure.

Call me and let's talk about
what's going on.

And I encourage any guy to do
that, right?

I I often talk about
preventative mental wellness.

And why do we go to a therapist
when our life is falling apart?

What if we went to a therapist
because we weren't really sure

where our life was going and we
were worried it's gonna fall

apart, and then we get the tools
so that it doesn't fall apart?

I promise, so much easier as a
therapist to give you the tools

to keep it from falling apart
than it is to help you put it

all back together, right?

So if you are resonating with
any of this, go sign up and meet

one therapist, right?

See what's up and talk.

Don't you don't have to commit
to I'm gonna do a 10-year mental

health journey with 19 different
modalities like Jake's doing

because he's obsessed with all
this stuff.

You can just say, I'm gonna go
talk and see what comes out,

right?

I love when someone walks into
my room and says, I don't know

where to start.

And I say, that's a great place
to start.

Why don't you know where to
start, right?

Because I feel like I'm checking
boxes and I'm exhausted every

day.

Well, what makes you exhausted?

And bam, now we're talking about
the things.

But overall, I think it is get
rid of this narrative that

you're weak for noticing it,
that you aren't a man because

you're feeling it, and instead
say, I'm the strongest man

around, and I'm gonna say, This
is what I'm feeling, this is

what I'm noticing, and I'm gonna
go talk about it.

Even if you're only role
modeling for other young men in

the community, in society, it's
gonna go a long way.

And the only way that we get
this whole mentality shifted is

if we all slowly do our part and
hope that it's as infectious as

I think it is.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's great.

That's great suggestions.

And I think that is the the
being able to just sit with and

recognize these things as we
feel them.

That's it's kind of the hardest
part, right?

Is that to actually just take
five minutes, you said, and and

just kind of just do a check.

Hey, what what's what am I
feeling in my gut right now?

Beyond anger, because there's
always uh other stuff below it.

So if that's the one, look look
a little deeper than that, but

really just reflect and just
note it.

I think just being aware is a
great start.

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: And I have to add to
that, sorry, it's just too

timely.

With that anger thing, I I was
recently at a conference, it was

the Wendy's Wonderful Kids
Conference.

It was a really cool experience
for me.

I got to see some of the
adoption workers that I had

worked with in the past.

And there was a presenter that
was talking about anger and how

anger is a secondary emotion,
and it's almost always rooted in

fear.

And I was like, she's not right.

And then I start thinking about
all the times I've been angry,

and I'm like, she's exactly
right.

And you know, that was a big
turning point for me of like,

when I got really, really angry
in relationships, when I got

really angry in a workplace, I
was scared I was gonna lose

someone.

I was scared that I was showing
up as an incompetent person.

And now I realize, okay, it was
fear.

And when I call out the fear,
when I see the fear, I don't do

the angry thing.

I don't get the anger.

I say, what can I do to help
acknowledge this fear and

address it?

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

I will add, and and Kenyon knows
this, I'm constantly on the

anger is always secondary as
well.

It's pain and fear, right?

It's it's both those.

And ultimately we're afraid to
feel pain, so we'll do anything

to avoid it, right?

But this idea that if we're
feeling anger, and and I I love

doing this exercise with clients
anytime.

It can be traffic, it can be
somebody cutting you off.

It is there is pain and fear, or
pain and fear going on there.

And and it's it's a fun exercise
to just kind of really dig down

and see how that how that
contributes to anger.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

I totally agree.

And then, you know, you take it
a step further and tie it to all

the times that you got angry,
and then you let that anger

produce a negative outcome.

And now we're looking at wow,
that pain or that fear ended up

getting you this thing that was
way more painful or certified

that fear.

SPEAKER_03: Right, right.

I will say the less I as I grow
older, the less I act out in

anger, the easier my life is to
navigate.

SPEAKER_00: 100%.

The less I act out in any
extreme emotion, right?

The amount of my life that I
spent regretting my actions

based off of extreme emotions
that I don't have to deal with

now because I just feel it, sit
with it, and then go decide what

I'm gonna do instead of reacting
to it.

Like I have freed up so much
time, enough so that I can be

running this business and trying
to turn it into a group while I

try to launch a nonprofit as
well.

So yeah, well worth it.

SPEAKER_02: I love it.

And so, Jake, if if listeners
want to find out more about you,

where should they go?

SPEAKER_00: You can find me at
therosswellnessgroup.org.

I'm also on all the socials.

I post on LinkedIn five or six
times a week.

And my Instagram is getting way
more active as well.

I'm at the Ross Wellness Group
there.

Um on LinkedIn, I'm just Jake
Ross.

There's quite a few of us.

I'm putting together a LinkedIn
group of Jake Ross's, but I have

a blue-collared shirt on and I'm
smiling with glasses.

So hopefully that'll help you
find me.

SPEAKER_01: What an amazing
community that Jake Ross is.

I love that.

I want that t-shirt.

That's right.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.

Thank you again for being with
us today.

Of course.

Thank you for having me.

This was awesome.

SPEAKER_03: Thanks for listening
to Lumen.

If today's conversation
resonated with you, we encourage

you to follow, review, and share
Lumen with anyone you think

would appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01: We'll be back soon
with another conversation

designed to bring a little more
light to the human condition.

I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.

And I'm Kenyon Phillips, LMSW.

Until next time, take care of
yourselves and each other.

Lumen is for educational and
informational purposes only and

is not a substitute for therapy,
diagnosis, or treatment.

If you're experiencing a mental
health crisis, please contact

local emergency services or a
trusted mental health

professional.