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The GGJ Podcast brings the spirit of Global Game Jam to your headphones, with people from around the world sharing how they found their way into game development. Each week, Susan Gold talks with developers, studio founders, and festival organizers about the twists, risks, and side doors that shaped their paths and communities. You will hear honest stories about creativity, collaboration, failure, and the messy, beautiful reality of making games.
Payment Due | AlexisJolisDesautels
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Intro
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[00:00:00] Susan Gold: This is the GGJ Podcast, a show about the games industry, the people who make them, and the communities that grow up around them. I'm Susan Gold, a game education trailblazer and one of the founders of the Global Game Jam. Each week we will be sitting down with a new guest highlighting their own path and journey.
[00:00:26] This is a space for honest conversation from Makers about creativity, collaboration, failure, and the messy, the beautiful reality of making games. So whether you're a young dev or seasoned, an educator, a student, or someone who just loves games and the people behind them, welcome to the GGJ Podcast. Take a breath, settle in, and let's hear directly from the makers themselves.
[00:00:49] Shirley McPhaul: This episode is made possible in partnership with the Global Game Jam, the world's largest game creation event. Bringing together creators from around the globe. A big thank you as well to the Global Game Jams. Headline [00:01:00] sponsors, Epic Games, Games for Change, and Xsolla for helping make this creative community a reality.
[00:01:06] To learn more and to get involved in the upcoming jams, visit global game jam.org.
[00:01:13]
Meet Alexis
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[00:01:20] Susan Gold: All right, so I am getting introduced to you, everyone. someone who's made a real difference in my personal life, be it in understanding design, understanding culture a large studio, someone who really educated me on what's really happening when it comes to huge, and I mean, really huge franchises. And who's real, who, loved to do game jams and design conversations and philosophy conversations. And I was so drawn to him. he was, in a small town in, the south of [00:02:00] France and we were both at the same conference and we just started talking.
[00:02:04] And, I think I've loved you ever since. This is my friend and our guest today, Alexis Jolie-Desautels.
[00:02:14] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: Oh wow. I love that. If only my mom could hear, what happened to my French name. Also I go by AGD, which makes me sound like, I don't know, cooler, I guess, or not, maybe it shows my age, but that's what I do with most, English speakers.
[00:02:29] So it's a thing.
[00:02:30] Susan Gold: Thank you, for letting me butcher your name. All right. So I just introduced you from my point of view. I would, you know, your wife or, how would she introduce you to the rest of the world?
[00:02:45] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: I will not answer that question, but I could. knows?
[00:02:50] Susan Gold: Okay. How would your best friend answer?
[00:02:53] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: okay. that's better. Um,
[00:02:54] I can try that. I'm a 44-year-old game developer, born and raised in [00:03:00] Montreal. I've been in games for 20 years now, so I started, I guess somewhat young. at the time. I come from a, half French half Quebecois. born from a French mom who immigrated, she flew France at the time. She wanted to live something different and she's, both of my parents worked in radio and television all their lives, and so I come from that kind of background. So communication and and the love of talking to people, I guess. And then I worked as a, as an actor when I was a young adult. and it was amazing and it's been very useful to me since. But my wife got pregnant at the time and I felt like I, I couldn't handle the pressure of soon to be a father and also working as an actor. And I was like this, I love it, but it's too crazy. What am I gonna do? I started so young, I can't do anything else. Et cetera, et cetera. And my wife actually told me, you should try to work in games because, You have an, like an understanding. But I was like, what am I gonna do? I've been an actor for the past five years. my resume says I can rollerblade and play saxophone. Nothing [00:04:00] that's an actor resume. If I remove all the actor crap, then it says nothing. I never finished a diploma. I studied like four different things. Japanese, history, medieval Japanese history, I studied, literature and writing. I went to theater and I never finished anything, which by the way is kids don't do it. please please don't do what I did. Because it's, especially nowadays, it's so much, it's so much
[00:04:23] harder to get anywhere.
[00:04:24] And I tell designers specifically, we, we will talk about design, but I tell them finish, whatever, anything. Anything at all doesn't matter. if you do a degree in, marine biology do with that and it, it'll still get you in a better place than if you never finish anything, which I did.
[00:04:37] Um, but yeah, I got into design. I was lucky enough to be born in Montreal, meaning by that, that there's, it was already a video game hub 20 years ago. There was so many companies, a lot of opportunities, I think. And I got into Ubisoft as a tester, like in the sort of yield backdoor, which again, I don't recommend so much these days because it doesn't really happen that way.
[00:04:56] a lot of test is, offshore, I want to say [00:05:00] into cheaper countries to run for companies. But at the time it wasn't the case. There was like a big testing floor with 300 testers. And that's how I got in. and then I worked my way up, talked to people, got a gig, got a chance to try a bit of design on a project, did that got the job.
[00:05:15] And then I started as a game designer. Working on the, top of the pile and just learning stuff and using a bit of all that, background from around to try to feed the design machine.
[00:05:25] Susan Gold: Yeah. But
Mentors & Inspiration
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[00:05:26] Susan Gold: was there anybody that helped feed that fuel that, were there people that were, like your muses or inspired you or mentored you?
[00:05:36] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: Yeah. Yeah. There were, I was, otherwise,I think none of that would've happened, to be honest. the first step was the user research lab was just founded, and it's a pretty big,nowadays it's, it seems obvious for people to run that, but at the time it, it was really new.
[00:05:51] And then,the Montreal Ubisoft Studio was building this big lab. I got a job there to, organize the internal tests, talking to the devs, what do you need? [00:06:00] Creating the forms. And then, observing the test, taking notes. And I learned a lot about that. And it was, so someone helped me get there.
[00:06:07] And then from that, someone helped me also get in design. a lead, uh, game designer on a project. Said, I got an opening, I got a junior who left. I'm gonna see people from, you know, internal resumes and stuff, I'm allowed to see you if you want to, but this is what you need to do.
[00:06:24] Susan Gold: can you talk about who that was?
[00:06:26] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: yes, it was a man called Sebastian Yale. He was an educator, at heart, which I think is probably the most important part of it. He was a smart guy, but he. Yeah, he left games. I think he, he was more interested about the education part and so he pulled me into saying, it feels like this is something you would want to do. You talked a lot about this to me. this is what you need to bring to the table. I'm not alone and I'm not the only person in the interview.
[00:06:50] So you gotta convince everyone there. And then, and that's how I got basically my first game dev job, like really imposter [00:07:00] syndrome on crack, because I was like, what am I doing here? but to be fair, the time in design there, there were no formal training. There was almost no studies 20 years ago.
[00:07:08] it was really marginal. and designers were treated as such as, well as a bit of a bunch of clowns to be honest. but so I was a clown. I became a clown that way.
Ubisoft
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[00:07:17] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: You, you've always been funny. I mean, that's first and foremost been one of your most attractive traits. you're smart, you're funny, but you're also, you had the ability to engage with people. So did you find when you, were working at UBI in those early years, were you helping define a lot of, ideas and how to work in teams? Because the team sizes got huge there. And why don't you go through like just a quick, I had this job Yeah.
[00:07:53] Susan Gold: and then this job, and this job. just and then what job did you have before you left?
[00:07:58] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: Yeah. So [00:08:00] when I got my first job as a clown, I was a game designer, junior game designer on one of the Splinter Cells games. And I spent the majority of that time designing one system, which was a sidekick. 'cause it was a co-op game, but it had a sidekick thing in single player where you could, someone would follow you around and you could do stuff.
[00:08:18] And those were like the good old days of, um, 'cause I hope they never come back of writing like a 200 pager GDD document. hoping it'll be used and people will read it. And actually, yes, no, they, they wouldn't. but that's what I did. So for a while I was sitting there and trying to figure out what's the best sort of experience
[00:08:37] And very little interaction with the people I, I should have been interacting with. The teams were already big, probably already too big. and then I did a bunch of games as a game designer. Hopefully I did smaller games. And I did much bigger games as well, like some of those Assassins Creeds and Far Cries are,they were getting pretty mental at the
[00:08:57] Susan Gold: What was your job when you were on [00:09:00] Assassins'?,
[00:09:00] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: Yeah. there were, there was a few things. by the time I, I touched assassins, I was already gone through, and I know this is something we probably will talk a bit more about later, but, I had already gone through the whole rational design era or episode and so it was interesting because one of the first things I did was interact with people working on the brand, looking for ways to solve some design issues because, and anyone will tell you, and all the haters will gladly write pages about it.
[00:09:27] Assassins is one of those brands that traditionally wouldn't take a breath. They would just chain and chain productions one game after the other. It was a game every year. but the games used to take three years to make. So it mainly, you had like multiple teams, no one ever stopping, never wondering like, why are we doing this?
[00:09:46] Should we be doing this? it's like the, what is it? in track and feel like relay the relay thing. You're running, you're already running, and then you put your hand and then someone gives you something and you keep on running and you never question, why did I pick up this thing and do I need it?
[00:09:59] [00:10:00] And those games were made that way. I recall very distinctly having a conversation with a lead game designer saying, Hey, we're doing this new thing now. This modern world narrative and we want to integrate, you know, like these webpages, widgets in the menu. It was the whole era of. Interconnectivity in games, you know? And so I was like, let's talk about the menu. Let's get some services, some life tiles in there. and this was at the start of their conception. And he told me, oh yeah, no, we don't, we're not gonna do that because, we're gonna do the menu, the exact same menu from the last game, and so the development file is locked. We've not elected to work on that. We're gonna work on something else. And so there's zero hours are gonna go into these menus, so we're not gonna do this. And I was like, but you, started two weeks ago. Like you're at the start of three years of development and you're telling me the conception phase is logged down for this thing.
[00:10:49] And it was like that for a lot of things, right? So that's the, they used to call it legacy. That was a polite word. Oh no. Yeah. We can't change that. That's legacy, anyway. And so it's running, running, running, [00:11:00] running, changing the wheels while you're driving and then hoping things get better.
[00:11:04] So that was, That was hard, I think on those games.
Crunch
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[00:11:06] Susan Gold: So you know, we're gonna talk a about a lot of different aspects of your life, but Were you ever finding yourself feeling. too overwhelmed. Like you said, you're running, running, running. I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but were you ever experiencing any kind of burnout or any kind of psychological effects of this kind of schedule and rigor?
[00:11:32] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: Yes. yes, being the short answer. So there's a few things. I end up saying working a lot, is relative people, have different thresholds. Okay. Working a lot because you're about to create something great and you just need to push. Is hard, but it's, I think it's great when that happens, if you feel like that's happening, working a lot because of mistakes is all right, it's okay. working a lot because, there [00:12:00] was some shitty decisions made on the planning that gets really bad. And so I think there's a lot of different reasons why you may end up doing that. And the reason matters a lot because if you feel like you're crunching for the right reasons, then you get, take care of yourself. But yeah, do it if you think you can. push as much as you can.I used to do it more than I do now, obviously I was younger, I was like, yeah, boom, boom, boom. But I ended up in a few cases where I was like, this is crazy. We're doing all this stuff because of, a few shitty decisions or, you know, bad planning or planning in disregard of,like flags that you would've raised a bunch of times that were ignored.
[00:12:40] And then you end up in the trench and then yes, then you get damaged because you're like, I can't believe I'm losing sleep over this. I've told you six times. I got all the emails here. Like, why are we in this situation today? And you will have this, I think this will never disappear. Whenever you're working on a project for any project based work, [00:13:00] you are exposed to that happening.
[00:13:02] But, I think the industry got so much better. At large at managing that. so much better. I've been in meetings where I would see people planning the overtime. that was the thing. It's like, ooh, yeah, we're not gonna get through. This is a bit like too much. Okay, so let's start crunching here and then let's crunch all the way to here and then months in advance and then you go, guys, like you can't be serious right now.
[00:13:25] we already know this is not gonna fit. So you're telling me we know when we're gonna crunch and we just plan for that. And we don't tell people, we just go ahead and, you know, welcome to the trench.
[00:13:36] And I got myself in. Trouble in a lot of different cases, and I was probably a bit of an nas to a lot of people also in this those times because yes, I would push back or I would, I would get angry at like if I felt there were a lot of wrong reasons for these things to happen, then I would get mad and I would lash out not always in the best way because you're overworked and you are overstressed, so you're not gonna be the best version of yourself either.
[00:13:57] Right. So
Staying Sane
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[00:13:58] Susan Gold: So what did you do? [00:14:00] What at that time, what were your outlets? How did you keep yourself full? What did you do to maintain your sanity, your family?
[00:14:10] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: Yeah. well I had my wife, that was the first thing. Still is,
[00:14:15] wouldn't have done any of this without her. So I got lucky there that she picked me up, I wasn't that great, I think, to get picked up at that time, but she,I guess she had vision, that my kids and my kids, that was a great thing as, I mean,I've been really good for the longest time to leave work at work basically.
[00:14:30] I, that's the however you do it really. But that's the thing, because you can get a lot of crap, but then if you're able to leave that behind and just go back home or to your friends or your family, whatever it is you do, then you're gonna, you're gonna be good for a long time at some point. I will say, though, it, it'll catch up. It'll catch up because you can run really fast, but eventually it'll catch up because you're gonna slow down.
[00:14:55] at some point it did catch up to me and I did eventually hit a wall like [00:15:00] really fast because I was used to going fast at that time, and a lot of that shit cut up to me and then I had to pay the bills. So
[00:15:07] Susan Gold: We will talk about that a little bit more in a, in, but I wanna talk about 'cause when you went from Ubisoft, you went to another job,you kept moving. So at any point did you stop to take care of yourself other than take the wife on a beautiful vacation here and there?
[00:15:25] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: no, and I think it was a, I guess for me, one of the solutions, which is not bad, I'll be honest, it's not a bad solution, was to keep moving, to be in a better position to solve these things. but that, that also comes with its own weight and because it means you're trying to just go up and up and up and up and up and, because yes, I did end up in cases where some of that frustration I could get rid of because I was in a position where I could solve some of these things
RLD
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[00:15:49] Susan Gold: So then let's go to one of those answers that you came up with RLD. So I don't want this to be an RLD workshop. We'll point to a really good video on that. [00:16:00] But, why don't you put RLD into your own words, and then why did you become the poster child?
[00:16:09] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: So yes. I'll, don't worry. I'll do this quickly, briefly. Let's get, just get the gist of it. So, RLD we just mentioned rational level design is actually the first thing that we saw from Rational Design. It was invented by the guys at Naughty Dog. Back when they did a talk on it and it was just a way they would work.
[00:16:27] They would parse down the work moment to moment in linear games and control, try to control everything. That was the way they worked at the time. Ub, some people in UB figured, okay, we're really good at the top down stuff. So defining the experience, getting the p, the pizazz, the rear, But we're not so much in control of the moment to moment of the mechanical aspect of games.
[00:16:49] basically the Hollywood aspect was great. The Nintendo aspect not as great. That's the way we explained it. So there was a push, a n internal push at UB to say, let's try [00:17:00] to construct a framework, a design framework by which we will increase our control and quality of the small stuff, the nuclear design stuff.
[00:17:09] And so. It was inspired by the RLD and it became a whole set of things, the RLD being part of it. And so it ended up being summed up as just rational design or rational game design, which includes, everything from how do people learn, how they retain information, how does, how do the thumbs work?
[00:17:30] What's hard, what are the skills that you ask of a player? What are, how can you name them? Can you deconstruct moments of gameplay, et cetera. So there was a whole framework centered around those ideas. And I was part of that initial development and training. There was pretty, you gotta give that to ubi, you gotta give it to the French.
[00:17:49] They rented a castle outside of Paris for a year and a half. I was there for six months. I was living in a little house not far from the castle, and they would fly [00:18:00] 20 developers every two weeks from all around the world to be basically. prisoners of the castle grounds for two weeks and to go through a formal training and with a bunch of workshops like this crazy nine days of program to go through all the different facets of rational design.
[00:18:18] And when I came back, I kept on doing it and I kept on working on it. It just became, it was a big answer for me, I think to some of the questions of it's crazy that we don't have a better control over the craft because there has to be something more than it feels good, or Oh yeah, this is cool.
[00:18:34] You know, like, uh, we did this because it's cool, is like the worst thing I can hear from a designer, I think still today. So it, that's why I got so motivated by that idea that so many people in other fields have asked those questions and they actually came up with really brilliant answers. A lot of those we can use as is or with very little, adaptation, we can turn to games.
[00:18:57] Use it because games [00:19:00] are, captain obvious putting my cap, but games exist because there's a gamer, so there's someone interacting with your system, and that person is usually a human being. So if you understand everything about the human being, you can create a better experiences.
[00:19:14] it's really not more complicated than that, but it's very hard to do, obviously.
[00:19:19] so that was a big thing for me. And it still is. Yeah.
[00:19:21] Susan Gold: and so, did some of this come from your earlier work? how did we get from here to now, this being like you're still doing talks about RLD.
[00:19:34] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: Yeah. I don't know. I think it was, well, like I said, I guess it felt to me like it was a, it was the rational part of me that wanted it. Then I didn't know until I, I stumbled into the initiative and I went like, guys, this is brilliant. Yes.
[00:19:50] it shapes the culture of design. So that's really influential because then you can see it later in
[00:19:59] Yeah. [00:20:00] Yeah. That's true. And I guess aside from the technicalities of the whole thing for sure, the most important part is the mindset. And again, this is fighting the intuitive, cool factor mindset of design. Like old school design, if I wanna call it that. It was fighting that saying,you know, embrace failure.
[00:20:18] Abandoned ego, look for solutions, don't look for ideas. It was like a lot of these little statements that some of them we've been hearing a lot now and great people like integrate them more naturally. I've seen, like from students nowadays, I'm always so impressed by how there's, I think there's a general evolution of the mindsets that I, I see in a lot of them.
[00:20:41] And, that's a very, reassuring thing to me because whether or not they were directly exposed to that, they were exposed to the, to zeitgeist of these ideas that were not natural. They were not intuitive when I started design at all.
[00:20:53] I remember being in play test and the level designer looking at behind the mirror, looking at a guy playing his map and the [00:21:00] guy's lost, and the level designer being like, oh man, why do you guys always give me like these guy's a complete Like, he can't play my game. Where do you find these guys?
[00:21:09] And I was like, dude. It's your fault. You designed a level. If the guy is lost, it's your fault. So you should observe him and figure out how you're gonna prevent this from happening. You know? So it's all those, yes, it is a mindset first, and then methods and tables and documents and for sure.
Jams
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[00:21:30] Susan Gold: Well, one of the other things that, you and I have in common about design is this love of game jams, and that is like, um. Some of the things that you have done in game Jams have blown my mind. I, I don't know how to explain it. I'll let you explain it, but
[00:21:49] you add a level of complexity that I think,you need to explain
[00:21:54] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: For sure, actually the year after we met.
[00:21:56] Susan Gold: with the same people there in Montier, just so happened that there was a will and an [00:22:00] interest to riff off some of those rational stuff that I was exposing then.
[00:22:04] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: And, I got asked, oh, maybe we could create something. We have a lot of schools. There's a lot of interest. and with a good friend of mine who was actually part of the different students program here at Ubisoft, we built a thing called the Gatcha.
[00:22:17] It's a game challenge. And it was the idea that we would do a student focused game jam. But. They would try to instill, um, I think a lot of notions that I felt would go beyond just the fun and, you know, the idea of jamming. And so the Gatcha was centered around a few simple ideas.
[00:22:35] The quality of creation comes from constraints, which is a simple principle. And then there's a French, author who said it well, um, before me. And it's counterintuitive. People think that the more constraints you add, the less creative they'll be.
[00:22:50] But of course it's the opposite. So that was the first idea. Second idea was like, these were students well advanced in their programs that were about to hit the market and go and work in [00:23:00] studios. So the Gatcha was about giving them an experience that would reenact. The hardships of working on a real game inside a studio with a real team, which none of the jams usually do.
[00:23:14] And that's fine. That's not the general I, purpose of jams. But we were saying, no, this is gonna be the purpose of the getcha. And so what we did is we created a bunch of cons, constraints. We gamified basicallythe jam. And actually I have, I'll just show you quickly because I have them behind me always at the ready.
[00:23:32] These are cards that were created for that system, right? the cards of the destiny. And simply put, we would've like around a hundred something students. We would separate them by trade designers, programmers, artists, and the other guys. So basically audio and whatever else we had.
[00:23:50] And we would force random teams on them. Which again, you usually don't do in a jam. And we would force large teams, and by large I mean 10 and to [00:24:00] 13 people randomly, they would assemble, come in front of the table and they would be forced to draw five cards of the destiny.
[00:24:08] And these were categorized by either a gameplay challenge, a technical challenge, or an experience challenge. Easy, medium, hard. So if you're greedy and you pick a lot of hard things because they're worth more points. We did this thing where if you fail the card, you lose the points. And this is basically teaching people. be focused on your decisions, which is something you need to do in games. If you try to do everything, you will fail. And, you are gonna work with a large team. You don't know most of these people, you will have to organize yourself. You would've to leave ego out the door. You got 72 hours, you're not gonna sleep much. Things are gonna get hairy really fast. But if you do manage to work out those kinks, you will have a game so much beyond anything you could expect from a jam because there's 12 of you for three days with everyone from all the fields you need. And we ended up with [00:25:00] some games being really, really amazing in a surprising state.
[00:25:03] And so we ran actually to say, I looked the other day, we did nine editions of this. Actually we, because of COVID and all that, we stopped right before the 10th.
[00:25:11] Susan Gold: yeah. Well, I took that same kind of card to Destiny and I brought that into the classroom. So it was a way to level up their skills and
[00:25:22] like I said, I learned so much from you and like when I got to visit you at the Ubisoft user research lab, I got to understand how and why we were collecting the data and, able to get at you with other researchers doing very similar work and how this data collection now really influences games to this very day.
[00:25:47] So,so through all that, you have moved. From studio to studio.
[00:25:54] you know, we alluded to some degree, you kinda experienced [00:26:00] total burnout. you said, it catches up to you. How did it catch up to you? When did it catch up to you? How did you know you were on fire?
Burnout
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[00:26:13] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: I think it, this is gonna depend on, um, each and everyone, it depends on how you're wired. I knew a bit how I was wired, but I discovered a lot more since then. Obviously I'm not a person that I think is, I will say naturally susceptible to this, which is stupid. Judgment because you can't compare. But as a person, I'm pretty aloof, mostly able to leave these things behind. I don't get chicken easily and, et cetera. Butyou're still, you. Accumulating debt, it's only that it doesn't affect you as much, which is cool, but maybe not at all, because then you build more debt and by the time when it blows up, it blew up like really good. but I guess, for me it was a lot of a few different places where I experienced a lot of toxicity,in daily work. And that was one of the most damaging things. And by that I mean,[00:27:00] people being, mean to other people and or to myself, but also to other people being witnessed to a lot of just shitty people doing shitty things.
[00:27:07] that's the way I'm gonna sum it up. This can happen everywhere and anywhere. but the thing is this, when the stakes get higher, those things create more damage
[00:27:16] you can't brush it up and go like me.
[00:27:18] Susan Gold: Because you were now creative director, that's the role you were in. after you left Ubisoft, and you went from studio, you had achieved, what I thought was like the pinnacle of success. Creative director,
[00:27:32] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: Yeah.
[00:27:33] Susan Gold: to me.
[00:27:34] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: Yeah. And it's what I wanted, uh, to do, it's what I dreamt about to some extent. So yeah, I've been very fortunate. worked hard, obviously, but very fortunate as well. you know,that's just the way life is. But yeah. So, so the stakes get higher,
[00:27:46] I and so when you care a lot, it's great, but then you get more damaged. that thing that broke me, which I think is a threat to anyone who's been. Let's say in games for a little while is I was in a [00:28:00] situation where, the best way for me to describe it is I was like, those, those un blue helmets guys, I don't know how you call them in English, it would say Cascade Blue in French, which is the guys with the blue helmets, which are Yeah, they're deployed to
[00:28:13] Susan Gold: The peacekeepers,
[00:28:14] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: peacekeepers.
[00:28:15] Yeah, un peacekeepers. Thank you. They're deployed to some of the most horrible or difficult situation, and most of the time they're not really allowed to do anything. Right. They can't really shoot, they can't really defend, they can't really take in, they have a lot of these rules, and I think some of them we've heard about, they would come back and be like PTSD from the inability to act on. They were there, they were able, they were capable and they couldn't do it. So of course, to a infinitely lesser extent, I was in a situation where I felt like. I've not out done all this to be in a situation where I watch these people just burn money and burn other people and not care.
[00:28:54] and eventually, it was spring break, so I went on a vacation, which was amazing. Got some sun [00:29:00] with the kids. Great. I came back and I never did. Basically I, on the Monday morning, I couldn't get out of bed. I, I just physically couldn't get up. And my wife looked at me and she was like, you're, this is, this is not working.
[00:29:13] and I had broken, I, I didn't notice, but I couldn't come back from that distance. And it was just too much. And then it took me like, I don't know, eight months to get back in a somewhat correct shape, to work. And that was, it was brutal. It.
[00:29:29] Susan Gold: So what did you do to get yourself back to work? I mean,I, as one of your friends, I've been looking for you. I had to seek you out. did you tell many people what was going on? how did you deal with it?
[00:29:45] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: Yeah, I was very, forth with,because, well, I think it's important. But, um, yeah, people around me would know, my colleagues would know. they did. And people I would, talk to eventually.
[00:29:55] I, in my family, people will know. I told them I'm on a leave. I broke [00:30:00] down. This is too much. And I'll be honest,I, sought out help immediately and I was like, I don't. I need to fix this. Whatever it is. I don't care. I don't mind, I have no particular opinion or, stigma about it. Whatever do I need to do. I got the therapy, took, medicine,everything I could to get back on track. And I wanted to work, I wanted to get back in a place where I would be doing what I love. And I remember telling people, I just wanna do my job. Just let me do my job. Which is a crazy, it was like one of those mantras I would be like, just, I just wanna do my job, like in my fever, sleep. But, yeah.
[00:30:37] Susan Gold: But, you also, you have a particular workout,and like you, this is something that kind of has kept your sanity
[00:30:46] for a long time. So why don't you talk about that for a moment?
[00:30:49] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: Yeah. it's KenDo. KenDo is the, Japanese, martial art of fencing, And most people would know KenDo because they would've seen, people wearing armor screaming [00:31:00] very loud and hitting other people with sticks. And that's what KenDo is. I make it sound dumb and simple, but it's an amazing martial art.
[00:31:06] but it's, it, it's a practical martial art, meaning that it's a combat system that you actively use against an opponent. So it is applied like boxing, I guess you could say, or fencing. And so this is a, yes, this has been amazing at 10 years. It, I'm sure it was a big part of, of the, of a balance as well, just because it's great for the body, it's great for the mind. Interestingly, and that was probably the hardest part, is when I hit that burnout, when I hit that wall, I couldn't do it anymore. I couldn't do anything basically for a while. Not nothing at all. And because I had also, the role of the instructors at my dojo, then that was responsibilities.
[00:31:42] I stopped teaching, as well, I couldn't teach, I couldn't do anything where something was expected of me, which is horrible because you feel like I, you people stopped. I can't. I just can't.
[00:31:53] and I was. Lucky in the sense that I had, that whole depressive episode was work related. And I [00:32:00] said, I'm lucky in the sense that my life was great, still is. And I could rely on that
[00:32:05] I wanted to, like I said, I wanted to get back to work. So at least it was a situation where I could try to map the, what is the road to that.
[00:32:11] And even with my employer at the time, which, and I was a behavior at that moment, great company like with the biggest independent here in, in Montreal. And, they were very supportive and it was like, how do I, what's my roadmap to get back? What can I get back on that is like gonna work and that is proper?
[00:32:27] and we did figure it out and I got back and then I had a great year after that. So I was really, lucky and happy for that support. And I get, I got to do my job and I got to work on that and solve it.
[00:32:37]
[00:32:37] Susan Gold: coming back from that and then being able to go back to do your job and now you even moved on from there and you have even more responsibilities. you wanna talk a little bit about what drives your moves between studios and, how do you know the timing is right for those kind of moves?
[00:32:59] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: [00:33:00] That's a good question. I don't know. I don't know if I know. I'm motivated foremost by, two things. So the mandate is very important. I don't care so much about, let's say, the specific game or the specific brand, because I guess because I was lucky to be part of Ubi and I touched like a lot of these amazing franchises that, any dev would dream to work on, rightly so.
[00:33:24] But because of that, I guess very quickly I was like, yeah, that's actually not the most important thing. And the whole notion that, you know, and I'd say this to designers all the time, like you think you wanna work on something you love as a gamer, but that's actually a trap and it's probably not the best idea when you start.
[00:33:40] So I keep on wishing to people, I wish you work on something you don't like, that would be the best move for you. But I, anyway, so I look less for the brand itself. but the mandate is very important. What is it you need? What can we build? this was a big part of what attracted me because I love behavior and like in, in the best of terms, I was not looking to [00:34:00] move.
[00:34:00] but this thing came up and I was like, yes, the mandate, the why, the big why behind has to be. Really clear. and that's really important for me. And then obviously, again, you'll hear this a lot, but it's true. it's the people in the end, at the end of the day, it's the people.
[00:34:14] Because we all, with the years, I could name a bunch of people that I personally disliked working with or that I think are horrible human beings. Like we all have that list. And that's fine.
[00:34:25] Susan Gold: or even people you don't know, and then you start interacting wing and you recognize those traits that become more important.
[00:34:32] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: And it is a lot about what I said before,respect,op openness to failure, like the love of the process I think is very important, especially when you're building something from the ground up. You must be interested about how you're gonna do it. Not just like throwing stuff and hoping it sticks.
[00:34:48] That's that's not a process. That's how you get bad experiences, I think. But so, so I get drawn to those things. and yeah, and this is why I moved like a few months ago because,this new initiative came up and [00:35:00] it was from the ground up. It was a great people that the idea is completely crazy, but the mandate is fun.
[00:35:05] So I figured, okay, there's something to build there. Hopefully I can provide some of my,experience and ideas there. And,
The Ladder is a Lie
---
[00:35:12] Susan Gold: So those are the kinds of challenges you're seeking out at this juncture. Those are the kinds of things you're looking to do. Is it something that would benefit our listeners? Are there things that, maybe when you think about the people that are part of the global Game Jam that they should be looking at or thinking about as they're developing their own skill sets and trying to someday be a creative director?
[00:35:44] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: Who knows. The, so first thing is, how can I say this? The, the ladder is a lie. and this has been an issue traditionally in games. I think it's gotten better in some studios, but you'll see what I mean. traditionally, you start a position, let's say you're a designer, [00:36:00] and then eventually you design your design and you do games or whatever.
[00:36:02] Yep. you're doing good. And so you might end up being a lead, lead game designer. Uh, and that's probably already the first mistake because traditionally that was the only way to evolve. It was the only way to evolve, saying, well, now you have experience. You no more, you can solve problems andyou've gone through some hardships.
[00:36:21] So now we're gonna give you this lead position, but it's not the same job. Some people are never meant to be leads and probably they don't want to, but they feel like that's my only way to keep on progressing. And they may end up doing the same thing with creative direction or game direction as an example.
[00:36:39] But again, it's a third job. It's not the same thing. And so my message today when I talk to designers or when I teach is, these are three different jobs, so be aware of what each one entails and then discover which one you want to do. And you might change later, that's fine. But just be mindful of that. It is not a, it is not a straight A ladder [00:37:00] straight up because maybe I wish in 15 years you're like the most expert ninja unicorn, super senior principal designer person, and we might need that on a project. And you tried lead and you're like, I don't like that director is like a different game. Maybe I don't wanna do that. Maybe I'm just like a super. Uber experience designer, and that's what I do. And we absolutely need that. Those are not the same jobs. So you gotta figure this out. what are you good at? Try different things, but think about whatever, what I think the progression is, what is it?
[00:37:31] Or if I could choose, what is it I would do, you know, like there's some days where I wish I would sitting down as a designer and writing designs because I still love it so much. And, but it's not my job anymore. And I actually, if I do that, it's probably an issue for my team.
[00:37:47] And then, You gotta look for the thing you love doing daily. And for designers, what I mean is fall in love with design and not with the game you're doing. And
[00:37:59] What I [00:38:00] said before, if you're lucky, you work on a game for a German studio that is catered for the eight to 12-year-old girls and it's about running a ranch with horses, and that's, you're the lead designer, you're the main designer on that game. if you're lucky, that's what you get because then you got, you, you will have to love design because you probably don. Care about running ranches, and you're not a German 12-year-old girl, so how do you do a good job? You need to love the job itself. You need to go okay, so how, what are the issues? How do we tackle this? who's this, little girl? What does she like? what's the console we're playing on? What's the historical like? And go through like the billions of questions and tap in all the fields like psychology, neurosciences, fashion, architecture, like whatever it is you need to fall in love with that process. And that's how you keep up doing it and that's how you become good to, 'cause then you can solve anything. And that's what people need. They need to designers who can solve anything.
Community
---
[00:38:54] Susan Gold: That's true. That is true. And we will have a lot of problems. Now I have one more [00:39:00] question about, community in you. you live in Montreal, which is, happens to be a gaming hub, but how do you interact with the community? What's the importance of community to you? how has that helped your growth as a maker and a developer?
[00:39:18] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: the answer is not nearly as much as I should. I think that's my general, observation with time. I personally I've done it mostly through teaching because it is, it's something I love doing and I hope I do have the hope that it's useful to some extent. but that's how I do it.
[00:39:34] that's my main vector I've done it internally a lot over time, but also then externally, and that I think that has become very, important and useful for me. and of course, you will hear teachers say this, but like the amount of.
[00:39:44] That you learn by teaching is completely insane. it's invaluable. because there's a few things. Well, first you end up having to master the things you talk about as much as you can. Like you have to,
[00:39:58] Susan Gold: and also because you're challenged [00:40:00] by,people and a lot of them much, much smarter than you are.
[00:40:05] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: Some of them will become more amazing than you are hopefully. and you have to. Answer to the call, right? you gotta go up to the plate and play your part. So I love that pressure for me is a very healthy pressure because it is made of,goodwill and, enthusiasm.
[00:40:21] I love having a student that's a bit of an ass challenging me, trying to corner me to a question, and I think that's great. That's a great way to do it because it's in the spirit of working with ideas and looking for failure and then just trying to better the process.
[00:40:35] And, so I've, I've gained a lot over the years by doing that, I think.
[00:40:39] Susan Gold: and I think it also helps, at least for me, keeps me engaged a little bit more and, and really. One of the reasons why I wanted to do this for the community was because I still wanted to be motivated about the industry. I still wanna [00:41:00] show people that, someone like you who has been very resilient throughout, a career and really share with 'em that a, it takes a lot of wherewithal, but it also takes a lot of drive, which I think you show so much of.
Wrap-up
---
[00:41:16] Susan Gold: but you know, uh, I, I guess as we're starting to wrap up this interview, how would you like to end the interview? What message or thing would you like to emphasize, you know, and you people to leave with?
[00:41:31] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: so I will share what I generally think. And, and hopefully it doesn't sound like too pompous or grand because it's not meant to be. So video games. Is the most powerful medium in the history of mankind. That's what it's, and for very simple reasons.
[00:41:45] it uses the most advanced, I immersion and technology, it's interactive games are about systems and people interacting with them. And so therefore, it has the potential for the most powerful experiences available to mankind.[00:42:00]
[00:42:00] And in that way, we should be very passionate and feel very, fortunate to be, involved in working games. But we should also think that it's, we have a responsibility to keep on pushing it. because we are working for the better man of mankind.
[00:42:18] Potentially through games, aside from the products, aside from all the usual stuff, the bunnies everywhere, blah, blah, blah. Of course. But use that to create something more. And, that's my, that's my deep feeling about this.
[00:42:31] Susan Gold: Well, and I think that comes full circle. like you said, how you grew up, this whole idea of acting and performing in front of people and in that whole idea of how you interact with people as being that key thing. And that brings us back into how you've evolved your career as well as, really I think help share concepts and ideas about how to design and design with the player in [00:43:00] mind as well as really, I think, been one of those people that has set the little fires and things in motion that have gotten us to open our eyes, gotten us to look at user research a little more carefully before we used to just collect it.
[00:43:19] A lot of it, and then. And, a and the work that you've done in the,and although you may not think you've helped the community a lot, I know that at every studio you've worked in, and we're not talking about small studios, you have helped thousands of people through teaching for Ubisoft on teaching future designers, teaching current designers, the people that have been able to influence you, who I think are, another conversation altogether.
[00:43:50] but the truth is that, there is this person and you have been [00:44:00] incredibly integral into how we make and play games now. And not everybody is going, oh, it was a Alexi, but it was my friend Alexi, and I think. We need to thank you. Thank you for your time here on the podcast. This was so much more fun than talking to myself.
[00:44:23] It always is talking to you and to be able to share with our audience what I think is, a very special person, someone who has made my life a lot more interesting and has given me so much more understanding of design. And I really thank you for always helping to level me up as a person. And, in our show notes, we'll put, links to whatever you want us to.
[00:44:54] but, if you guys get a chance, check out Alex's RLD [00:45:00] talk because they will really make you think again about your whole design process. Thank you so much my friend
[00:45:07] Alexis Jolis‑Desautels: Amazing. Well, thanks a lot for doing this, by the way. Of course. Not just for me, obviously not just for me. I love talking about this stuff. You know, it, we could do it for hours, but, thanks a lot.
[00:45:15] Susan Gold: No, thank you Alexi, and love to your family. And thank you very much for joining us on the GGJ Podcast.
Outro
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[00:45:23] Shirley McPhaul: Want to get involved with the G GJ podcast, we'd love to hear from you. Please send your ideas, suggestions, and questions to ggj pod@globalgamejam.org and tell us who you think we should be talking to next. What stories or issues matter most to you about the future of games, and help us highlight the people and practices that make a sustainable, creative life and games possible.
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[00:46:09] Catch us on substack and on YouTube and anywhere else you find podcasts. This has been the GGJ Podcast. Thanks for listening and keep making games.