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You are a business owner who wants to prioritize people and planet over profits (without sacrificing success). That can feel lonely—but you are not alone! Join host Becky Mollenkamp for in-depth conversations with experts and other founders about how to build a more equitable world through entrepreneurship. It’s time to change the business landscape for good!
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:00.945)
We're back for our discomfort series. How are you doing, Faith?
Faith Clarke (00:04.406)
I'm good. And I'm pretty psyched to kind of trace this line between a moment in time and a feeling that it produces and how that can lead to discomfort and conflict.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:18.749)
Yeah, and I was naming some bigger things and you're like, what about some like little just everyday kind of conflicts? like, I have the perfect story because it happened last night and I'm still sort of sitting in. I've mostly shook off the discomfort, but there's still a little lingering there. And it's the silliest of thing that I think anybody in a relationship can probably relate to. So I'll just quickly give the background. In Missouri, where I live, we don't get that many gorgeous days and it was a beautiful day. And I love sleeping with my windows open when I can. love that fresh air.
So I had the windows open last night and my husband said to me as we were going, you know, going to bed, getting ready to sleep. He was like, if it gets too cold in here, I'm going to shut that window. We have arguments all the time as I'm perimenopausal about how cold the room needs to be. And I was like, whatever, fine. You can do that if it gets too cold. All right, great. We both fall asleep. No problems. Some point in the night, which I now know was 3 a.m. I'm awakened by my husband saying it's raining. The water is going to come in the window. If we're not careful, you might want to shut the window.
Faith Clarke (01:10.158)
I'm out.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (01:18.781)
And I thought, well, I was pleasant. I was just nice, like, oh, having a lovely evening. I didn't hear the storm. I was just sleeping through it. And now I'm awake and not because of the rain, but because of you telling me I should shut the window when and yes, my my side of the bed is closer to the window. There's that. However, he had said he would close the window if it got too cold. And I said, well, you said you were going to close the window if it got too cold. I'm not cold. It's raining. And in my mind, I think. Well, why are we both awake right now?
Faith Clarke (01:21.932)
You're out. You're just out.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (01:48.647)
Previously, only one of us is awake. You could have just taken care of this and then potentially gone right back to sleep. And I might not have never, I might not have ever woke up. I could have just have a lovely evening instead. Now we're both awake and I'm really annoyed with you. I'm now angry. He did quickly apologize. And then when I brought it up again in the morning, I said, you owe me an apology. He said, I apologized last night. I'm like, I know, but I'm still angry about it. And so he apologized again. And he's like, you're going to have to let this go. And I'm like, and that is accurate. I do have to let it go because at some point it's not worth holding onto.
But it was very annoying. I was very frustrated. And I think it created more conflict in my story of it was there was a bigger conflict than his story of it. So we can talk around this now that we have the lay of the land.
Faith Clarke (02:31.692)
Well, I'm curious about the story that you had that fueled your upset when he said what he said. Like what does that mean? What are the, some of the things that you believe about that moment? Cause if for example, not to be facetious, but his legs didn't work. You, you, you wouldn't like it wouldn't fuel the same upset as it fuels. No. So what are some of the stories you have that.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (03:00.731)
Yeah, I mean, first, I had the story that he had already, I felt we had established ground rules that if the window needed to be shut in the night, he would do that. Okay. I can also easily get into his head on the same story. So, which is helpful, but right now I'm not. So in my mind, he'd already broken the established ground rules. Secondly, my story is that was really selfish, right? You're awake. So now I need to be awake too, right? Like it.
Faith Clarke (03:12.994)
No, no, yeah, we'll let you know.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (03:26.083)
it felt a little like in my head, it's this kid going, well, if I can't sleep, nobody can sleep, right? That sort of a feeling of it felt pretty selfish to me, which also felt kind of disrespectful and lack of caring for my sleep that his needs were more important than mine. So I think those were sort of that's.
Faith Clarke (03:43.788)
Yeah. And I feel like that's the big one. His needs are more important than yours. And then that fueled what was the physical feeling in your body.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (03:54.085)
friend, I couldn't even get back to sleep then, which really aggravated me because I was mad because he woke me, but then I couldn't get back to sleep because now I'm aggravated. I'm annoyed. felt, I felt like itchy. Like I, like I wanted to do something. Like I could feel this feeling of retaliation. Like I even, he immediately is back to snoring and now I'm awake fuming, right? So then I'm like, there's this, I could feel that my toddler part, like nobody can sleep. Then I, if you can't sleep, then if I can't sleep, nobody can sleep.
I felt that start to rear its head in me wanting to wake him up and be like, you woke me up, now I'm waking you up. I didn't do those things, but that's that. So I felt this like, I just felt itchy. I felt this tension of like, wanna fight back. I felt a fight, but I didn't because I also knew two wrongs don't make a right. But that was the feeling. Yeah.
Faith Clarke (04:42.702)
But mean, is like that, right? Anger is about injustice. And so it's energy to handle injustice. And so my needs are more important than your needs. And you're like, that's blatantly, as far as your story about yourself is concerned, that's not true. And it's an injustice to kind of be acting that out. And so yeah, it's super activating and alerting. And three in the morning is not the time for anger.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (05:09.085)
No, I definitely was not well resourced at three in the morning to deal with those feelings.
Faith Clarke (05:15.31)
Right. And I think the story also illustrates the, you know, I always, I like to separate things. I'll say, what was the stimulus? Somebody woke you up. So what's the actual thing? Cause you know, we have had that experience as mothers before, a kid wakes us up and we don't wake up with rage. Not all, I mean, there are times, there are times. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (05:34.629)
Well, not always. There have been those times too, even with my kid.
Faith Clarke (05:41.558)
like something happens and the situation can't be fully processed in the moment and you have the quick response that moves from discomfort to rage. And so part of our own self-regulation and care in that moment is how do we move back from the story that gave us the rage either to say, hey, this rage is useful at 9 a.m. and by at 9 a.m. I may have more of my executive functioning to.
think through what I need to do about this rage, or even to kind of create a different story for yourself that helps you rest. Because fundamentally what we're saying is if we can have more restorative conflict navigation strategies, including how we tell stories about our discomfort, and then how we share those stories in community, know, sounds like there's some community sharing that will continue with you and your husband.
But yeah, just when do we share those stories in community? How do we share those stories in community? How do we build the ability to share our stories easily so that we can move from discomfort into being seen and heard versus moving into the anger of the story because we just weren't witnessed in the moment, you know, so.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (06:58.333)
Well, and what I did and not to turn it into like a tidy lesson with a bow necessarily, because I'm sure I could have done things better. mean, again, I was still kind of harboring some of that in the morning. But like you said, some of that is put a pin on some of that for when it's time. But in that time, I was laying there, so I'm feeling the itchy. like, want to just want to bring his neck, you know, that kind of a feeling of like, how dare you? It's not how dare you. Right. The injustice, like you said.
And I was feeling all of that. And then as I started to like settle in a little like, okay, I can lay here raging or I can try to get to sleep. I checked in with my body and I was like, I actually need to use the restroom anyway. Now that I'm awake, right? I might as well go ahead and do that. So I got up, I used the restroom and all of this just was like, now I'm having some time for my nervous system to kind of regulate, calm down.
because that anger was punctuated briefly, right? I felt that rage. And then I started to like breathe a little bit. I took care of my bodily needs. And as I'm coming back to bed, by that time, just even through that, I started to think, okay, there's this part of me that's still with that anger of like to spite him. I'm going to leave the window open and let the rain get all over the floor and ruin it, right? And quickly started to realize I could do that. That is one avenue I can go the throughout.
That's going to create more conflict for us tomorrow when he sees the floors are ruined and he gets upset because the window wasn't shut and I was the one who had wanted it open and all of the things. I'm like, I could do that. We can have that fight. could basically, if you said sort of push pause on this and allow that anger to resurface tomorrow in an even bigger way. Or I can recognize there is water getting on the floor and that isn't good. And I can deal with that. And then we can talk about the
other part, the smaller conflict tomorrow without it now needing to become a much bigger conflict because I have been in my sort of obstinate, I'll get you way, allowing the floors to get ruined. So I went and I shut the window so it was very open, only a very small amount. Now put a towel down so that any water that got in wouldn't ruin the floors. I now felt more comfortable in my body because I had used the restroom. I was able to then lay down.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (09:17.071)
and kind of let that go knowing that I'm not fully over this, which is why in the morning in his mind we were done because he had apologized. In my mind, we weren't yet done, but I was able to have it dissipate enough that I could get some sleep knowing I can revisit this in the morning. And by the way, first thing when I woke up, you owe me an it was there and I was ready and you owe me apology. But I wasn't raging. It was a much calmer place to be. Right. It was a very different experience than if I had let
Faith Clarke (09:34.572)
You revisited it.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (09:45.085)
The feelings continue, left the window open, said tomorrow we're going to really have it out. So like I felt like the response that I ended up having was good because I and I think so much of that embodiment we talk about. I listened to my body and was sort like, what does my body need right now? And as I was able to get my body to a place where it felt more comfortable, because also probably I woke up angry because I also I needed to use the restroom. Right. So as I woke up, now I have the discomfort of the anger, but also like some physical discomfort. So relieving some of that and just saying, OK,
My body's more comfortable. I can do the thing that is sane here, the rational thing to do. And then I can deal with this other piece of
Faith Clarke (10:24.334)
I think that this movement through what are the choices available to me is part of the restorative path. If I'm not able to choose what feels like, if I'm not able to choose my choice, you know, then that's part of the thing. Because as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking another really powerful choice can be to leave the window open.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (10:51.997)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (10:52.808)
And it isn't your fault alone if the floor gets wet and destroyed. And that a person who sees, it's like me with the kids, not to equate, you know, your situation with me with the kids, but like I walk by and I see the towel on the ground and I leave it and I walk by because I'm like, somebody, somebody else needs to see that. And I'm watching it for three, four days and I am choosing to watch that. And then in the moment when I choose to pick it up,
I try to choose my choice. I'm like, no, this is about my nervous system. This towel is irritating me. Me picking it up is not about these actual humans, not like I'm enabling or helping them. I am trying to settle my own nerves. And so I choose that choice as well. And so this is about the agency that we all want to have. And in so many, we're talking about light examples at home, although...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (11:38.183)
Right.
Faith Clarke (11:49.322)
All our examples at home set us up for how we are in the workplace where, you know, in your story, you have a lot of agency. You can go back to your husband and say, Hey, this sucked. And a lot of times in our work spaces with our clients, with our colleagues, we don't feel that freedom to say, so, so we're stuffing it and we're stewing and we're angry and we're showing it in other places, including in our blood pressure, because we can't really make that kind of quality decision to choose our choice.
and bring it back to the table when we want to and when we need to bring it back to the table.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (12:24.859)
Yeah, because another very real choice would have been I could have woke him up and we could have had it out then, right? We could have fought this out. We could have talked about it. We could have worked through those things at three in the morning because I was awake and there was that part of me that was like, I'm he should be awake. Let's you know. So that that was a very real choice. And I'm not to diminish that choice. I think that's also a very valid choice.
Faith Clarke (12:44.71)
you could have made the choice not to have it out and still wake him up. Like, no, no, I'm not getting up right now. You saw it, you do it. And then I'm pulling the sheet over your head, even if you're not sleeping. It's the ability to know what's in front of you. Like, what are some of the choices that I can make in my fully grown, agential self? And, you know, I'm willing to handle, you know, the consequence of the towel, the water, whatever it is. It's like, my goodness, is that what happened because we left that there?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (12:49.091)
Right, there's that choice.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (13:00.466)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (13:14.702)
Hmm. You know, I mean...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (13:16.187)
Right. And then different days I might make different choices. Right. Yeah. And in different parts, at different times in my life, I would have made different choices. Last night, I think because I had up until 3am had actually gotten some good sleep and because I was in tune with my body to know the things that I needed. And honestly, at that point, I was like, as mad as I am about being awake, it was clear my body kind of needed to be awake anyway to deal with, you know, going to the restroom. And so I'm like, there I think I was resourced enough.
Faith Clarke (13:19.338)
Absolutely, absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (13:44.869)
in that moment to be able to handle it in a way that felt good. Did it feel great? No, like, you know, there are parts of me that there are still things about that that I'm sitting with like, but I feel good that my floor isn't ruined, that I was able to like not make my husband not get any more sleep because the truth is he wakes up much earlier than I do because he has a very early schedule. He's up at five every day, you know, so he had to be up in two hours. We could have been up fighting and all of that, or I could have made him do it and he wouldn't go back to sleep.
And then I would feel bad the rest of day. Do I need to know? But I might have. like in my mind, I felt like I chose the path that felt the best for me in that moment, right? And for the best for our relationship in that moment, knowing full well that we're going to end. Yes, this morning I made him apologize again, but we'll probably yet have one more conversation about this too, because I also want to give him that space.
Faith Clarke (14:24.27)
Thanks.
Faith Clarke (14:34.476)
At least.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (14:38.023)
to not have it be just an argument for him to be able to express what his thoughts and feelings were in that moment. I have an inclination of what they were. I think in his mind, I was the one who wanted the window open, so I should be the one to have to deal with it, and that I was prioritizing my feelings over his, my need for the fresh air and the cool air over his need for sleep. And the fact that I had prioritized that meant that the storm woke him up, right? So I can easily see now in my regulated state,
couldn't at 3 a.m. in my regulator's state, I can see where he was probably coming from, right? I can see where he was probably feeling the exact same things I was feeling, right? The exact same feeling.
Faith Clarke (15:16.75)
And in his, he decided, he felt discomfort. He had some upset from going to bed with the window open. And then he decided the choice he made was to wake you up. And so, you know, we could invite him to the conversation to say, you know, what are some other choices that might have been aligned with the world we want to create? You know, and as again, for most of us, we're not resourced and regulated enough to be able to say,
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (15:22.237)
Mm-hmm
Faith Clarke (15:44.846)
What's the world I want to create here? was listening to Sonia Renee Taylor talk about how can we be in collusion with love? How can we be in a new imagination versus in this old imagination? So as we're here in this moment at three o'clock with discomfort, how can we build our tiny skills to be, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, what, what's the world I want to build? What's the way, what's the thing, the pattern, the habit, the culture between us that I
get to participate in right now at three o'clock as this man has woken me up about this window, you know.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (16:19.985)
Right. And I think for him, where he felt resourced in that moment was the reaction he had. And so for us to, think the healthy piece of this is can we now have, in my mind anyway, where this could go from we've had conflict and I just see it as a thing that like a blip in time or where it can become healthy conflict that actually furthers our relationship. Right. So there's that choice now, too. I had the agency in the moment.
I also have agency now to think, I want this conflict to just, do I want to just let that go? We move on from it. And it doesn't harm us because we handled it, we've handled it well enough. Or do I want to become this thing that actually could move us forward in our relationship? And to me, the way that it could do that is if I broach that and we set up some new sort of ground rules and we come to some new agreements about what in the future might this situation look like, right? So maybe in the future, would, instead of saying,
If I get too cool, I'm going to shut it. That he's the agreement might be if this becomes uncomfortable because you want this window open for you, you're going to have to be the one who's responsible for what happens with the window in the night. Or he says, I'm willing to accept having the window open because I know it makes you comfortable. And I will be the one who takes on whatever happens in the night if it needs to be managed. Right. Something. But like, and it's a small example, but it's like you were saying, it's how we do anything. It's like, I have the choice now. We as a couple even have this choice.
to allow this small conflict that really is kind of in the grand scheme of our long relationship, fairly meaningless, but we could actually use this to our advantage, to better our relationship by improving our communication, setting up some new boundaries and guides to some rules together that we use in the future to avoid future conflicts, right? So I think that that's also something to consider. And not every little conflict I think has to lead to that, but there is like that invitation and that.
of that agency again, the choice that you could, that you can use this conflict as something that actually becomes the impetus for improvement.
Faith Clarke (18:24.27)
So I think two things, that I do think every conflict has that opportunity and we should take it. There is an opportunity to fine tune our engagement with each other's So yeah, what you did last night was not blow things up too, too much, but the story difference is still there. And so another night, the snow comes in or
mosquitoes come in or whatever it is, you know, and it's back because the difference exists. And I think that there is, there's an opportunity to actually have a body, body honest release of the, this doesn't really matter based on the, the, the things I'm prioritizing, the intentions that I'm holding. This doesn't matter, which means it disappears or this does matter. And if it matters, then am I going to engage with this, with this person?
Or am I going to engage with it somewhere else so that I can kind of have a reckoning? And I think what I've noticed certainly with my clients is because of the, don't want conflict to happen. As soon as we're not feeling pissed, then we're like, great. Right. Versus building the ability to say, wait, there's a story underneath this.
What's this? My, our stories are in conflict and my story belongs to my nine year old self and your story belongs to your 12 year old self. And these people aren't going to let this rest. And so how do we care for our inner selves as well as care for the other person and come up with the type of shared story that helps us move forward. And it feels dramatic over a window, but the more often we do it, the easier it becomes in the places where it actually really, really, really starts to matter.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (20:14.577)
Well, exactly, because if I don't have these muscles built in these small ways where there's not a lot of, the stakes are very low. We're not getting divorced over this window, right? Like that's just not a thing that would happen. But if I can't do it in these low stakes moments, then when the stakes are really high, which we've had those in our relationships specifically around parenting and parenting differences and challenges there. And those are high stakes and have been high stakes moments where
Faith Clarke (20:24.514)
stakes are very low.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (20:42.947)
It has been scarier about what does this mean for our relationship long-term. If I can't do it in the little ones, in the high-stakes moments, I won't be equipped to do it at all. And then that can lead to serious problems. Where here, these are the opportunities to work those muscles, to practice, right? To build up the muscles so that they're there and ready in those high-stakes moments.
Faith Clarke (20:51.406)
and
Faith Clarke (21:02.614)
And I think the stakes always just acknowledge that the stakes are often safety, resourcing and power. You know, I'm going to lose power. I'm going to lose safety. I'm going to lose resourcing. And whether that's true or not, that is kind of what we want to be able to say, is this really what's going on here for me? What, you know, what's, what's my inner thing that's making this so difficult.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (21:24.797)
Yeah. And maybe, maybe the next conversation we can talk about some higher stakes things too, because that might be interesting to sort of compare some of this. So thank you for this conversation. I feel better, honestly, about the, I mean, I was feeling okay, but I feel good about followup to this when he comes home. So little, little does he know what awaits him. Right. We're working this window out, buddy. Thank you, Faith. I hope that these conversations are helpful for other people too, as their deal. I mean, because you don't get through a day without discomfort.
Faith Clarke (21:40.352)
good. Let's hand him a mediation agreement. We're going to like, we're going to work it out.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (21:54.797)
and certainly not through a life. So thanks, Faith.
Faith Clarke (21:54.924)
not even one.