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This podcast and community breaks the silence, shame, and fear that often surrounds sexuality, unwanted pornography use, and betrayal trauma and helps you embrace your God-given sexuality with courage compassion and connection. People just like you share their stories of recovery and forgiveness and experts teach principles, share insights, and provide real tools to help you rebuild trust and develop healthy sexuality. Ask your questions anonymously and expert therapist, Rachel Denton, will answer them and discuss practical tools to help and gain insight as to how ecclesiastical leaders can play an effective and powerful role in your healing. Join Crishelle Simons as she breaks the silence and together we can create a culture of courage, compassion, and connection.
This podcast is brought to you by Reach 10. Reach 10 is a non-profit with a mission to educate and help young adults overcome the effects of pornography and betrayal trauma and create healthy relationships with themselves and others.
Join the community at @breakingthesilence_reach10 or visit reach10.org.
We share these views to open the dialogue and educate on these tough issues and to create a healthier culture of sexuality. The opinions and views shared by the host or guests do not constitute as professional advice or services and do not necessarily reflect the views of Reach 10, and we don't guarantee the accuracy of any statements you hear. Reach 10 is not responsible for your use of information heard in this podcast. We keep learning, and invite you to join us as we build a more open, compassionate, and courageous culture.
Ep 2.4 Carlie Palmer Webb - Faith Values and Sexuality
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Crishelle: [00:00:00] welcome back listeners. we are so excited to be joined today by Carly Palmer Webb. We've had her before and I'm stoked to have her back because she is just a white and a beacon and just so awesome. So today we're gonna be breaking the silence with Carly and we are going to be talking about. Where our faith values and sexuality meet, and how to bridge maybe some of the gaps that you might feel when it comes to those three things. And so without further ado, Carly, will you just take a second and maybe just introduce yourself to our listeners?
Carlie: Sure. Thanks. So happy to be here. Thanks for having me back. Well I am a sexuality researcher, which is maybe not a really common career choice, but I have been a sexuality researcher for several years. Basically, I. Went [00:01:00] to school and instead of doing the clinical track to become a sex therapist, I decided to do the research track, which means that I spent grad school doing stats and and data analysis so that I could better understand the research that exists and contribute to the sexuality research that exists.
And there's a lot of cool research going on specifically around religion and sexuality, which. I'm pretty stoked about. So that is my background. And now I do a lot of education as well. So I educate specifically Christians who have grown up imp purity culture about sex and sexuality, and try and help them bridge the gaps between the things that you introduced Chelle.
What else? I'm married to a wonderful man named Dalan. I have a baby on the way that is gonna be here [00:02:00] any second. So we're anxiously awaiting the arrival of our little one. Very, very anxiously. that about sum my life up right now.
Crishelle: Beautiful. Beautiful. And she's often known as the Christian sex educator and that's where you, is that your handle on Instagram and,
Carlie: Mm-hmm.
Crishelle: sweet. And her courses are awesome and I can't recommend her page, her website, like all of the things, everything. Carly is awesome. So,
Carlie: You are so good to me. Thank you.
Crishelle: She's just, you're just doing so much good in the world, and I just want more people to know about you. I, I send all of my friends and family who are getting married or like, basically everyone actually married, unmarried, like everyone, everyone I send to you, like go check her stuff out.
Carlie: I appreciate it.
Crishelle: So, hi, [00:03:00] I'm a big fan.
So when it comes to our faith and our values and our sexuality, maybe, what are some of the common gaps that you have seen in your, in your research, in your work?
Carlie: Well, I think the biggest one is honestly just that, that so many of us past Carly included, think that they're in conflict with each other, and I think that that's the, the primary issue that I see for a lot of. Religious individuals they feel as though their faith and their sexuality, especially during periods of singleness.
Are fighting against each other somehow, or there's no way for them to coexist in a good and happy way. And I think that's [00:04:00] the most unfortunate and problematic dynamic that I see with the people that I work with. And also in the research that we do, is that can turn into pretty easily a. A lot of guilt about sexuality, a strong dislike of their sexual self or sexual desires.
Sometimes a quite dramatic effort to shut down their sexual desires and, and sexual self. So I'd say that's the biggest one.
Crishelle: Yeah, I, I mean, as you were talking about that, I just feel like I was sent back to Pastor Chelle. I was like, oh my goodness. That was so me,
Carlie: Same totally.
Crishelle: oh, it was so hard, so, so hard.
Carlie: It is, it is. It is such a challenging road to [00:05:00] walk, especially because we're trying to be good. We're trying to follow God. Like all these people that I work with that are sharing these things with me are such good people, and they've really dedicated their lives to following God in really beautiful ways.
But this specific part of their faith journey and their life is so painful oftentimes. There's so much shame, there's so much guilt and a lot of really negative self-talk and self thought. It's unfortunate, but you know, we're, we're working on changing it.
Crishelle: Yes. Yes. That's definitely what we want because I think also I think there's a lot of fear.
I think there's a lot of fear in there too. So I. To compound all of those things. I just feel like it can be very paralyzing and, and, and also pretty hopeless of [00:06:00] like, how do I bridge this gap and, and where do I start?
Will it require marriage for me to ever bridge this gap? Does marriage solve it? I, I, I just feel like there's a lot of. A lot of question as to what to do different.
Carlie: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Especially, especially when you're not sure what's okay and what's appropriate, like when it comes to your faith and your sexuality. It is, it's a difficult situation to be in when you feel like you need to make a change in this area, but you don't know what you're allowed to learn or do, or, yeah, it's tricky.
It's totally tricky.
Crishelle: That's so true. I feel like I remember googling once, like how far is too far as a Christian or so like,
like not a helpful Google thing, by the way.
Carlie: Google's
Crishelle: any, any helpful results. Just fyi, like it [00:07:00] was so hard to know. It was so hard to know. Like, I don't have, I messed up. What, what now? And that's just like in that moment plus all the other things, like, is it okay for me to read this book?
I'm not, I'm not married. Like, is it like, I just remember feeling so anxious all of the time,
Carlie: Yeah. Yeah, same.
Crishelle: of the time about it.
Carlie: Same. That was very much my same experience and I got married when I was 28, so I had quite a while of Trying, trying to figure this out while single. Thankfully it didn't take me all the way to 28 to realize that I could learn. I actually did grad school and became a sexuality researcher before I got married.
But I spent so much time wondering, I. What if I was doing this wrong and wondering if I was going too far and like apologizing to God for [00:08:00] every little sexual thought or desire I ever experienced it. Yeah, it's, it's rough. It is. It can be so uncomfortable.
Crishelle: I just, I, I just feel like I, I know we spent like a little bit of time going back to I am so relate to that apology prayer.
Carlie: Yes.
Crishelle: I remember
saying it so many times
Carlie: Yeah.
Crishelle: and now looking back, I'm like, what was I thinking?
Carlie: I know, know it. It's, I know. Same. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Crishelle: But I also look back and I'm like, you know, at the same time, I feel like I also am grateful. I'm grateful for those moments because it helped me want something different,
if that makes sense. It helped me want something different. It also helped me, and in a lot of ways, I feel like it did protect me for better or for worse,
Carlie: Probably both. Some of both.[00:09:00]
Crishelle: Yeah, that's true. That's very true. But I just wonder like how could that be done differently on, in all stages? How can we bridge the gap and, and allow our faith and our values and our sexualities to live in harmony? I.
Carlie: Well, I think it's important for us to recognize, it sounds like you and I had pretty similar experiences in this regard, but there were good things happening, like our desires to be good, our desires to follow God, our desires to align our behaviors with our beliefs. Those were all good things. And and our efforts to make that happen.
Were coming from a really good place.
Crishelle: Definitely.
Carlie: All of those can still exist and in fact can be quite a bit more effective and meaningful with an acceptance and appreciation [00:10:00] for. Ourselves as sexual beings, and I think that's what you and I were missing was the intentions were good. Right? I always, I can't help but think of the Princess Diaries quote when she says, the concept is grasped.
The execution is a little elusive, you know? We, we really, we, we were on the right track. We just had a, a really significant gap in the information and understanding that we had about healthy sexuality that kept us from maybe engaging with it in healthier ways. So
Crishelle: And, and I just wanna also like, let's just imagine for a second maybe instead of cuz I feel like my, my experience was to suppress my sexuality and to. So like, run from it. And, and most of that [00:11:00] came from just a lot of pain that I grew up with in my family of origin and, and I just didn't ever want to experience that.
And so if I hid it, then it would never, wouldn't be a problem. Right.
Carlie: That always
Crishelle: spoiler alert, it didn't work. But let's just maybe imagine for a second if we were having a conversation with someone who, who maybe on the opposite side was like struggling with pornography or, or on the other side is having a difficult time with maybe their, their sexuality is maybe running the show more than they want it to
be. Does that make sense? What would that I. Go ahead.
Carlie: I would say interesting. Interestingly enough, those two struggles can come from a really similar place.
Crishelle: Interesting.
Carlie: meaning for a lot of us, suppression is the way that we deal. You know, like [00:12:00] it's, we think that sexuality is bad. We think that our sexual, sexual desires are bad, so we just try to shove 'em as deep as we possibly can into ourselves.
That's coming from a place of A place of fear, a place of guilt for a lot of religious individuals, sexual explorations or se unwanted sexual behaviors kind of come from the same place. Like they don't know how to manage it in healthy ways, so they seek out. They find sexual outlets that can be hidden, right, that don't require them to be engaged with other people, that don't require them to be knowable, and, and they use those as a way to navigate their sexuality. In the [00:13:00] dark is what I would say like in secret, because they don't know how to do it any other way. And oftentimes these unwanted sexual behaviors, which I realize are not always unwanted, but for religious individuals, things like pornography are often engaged in, in a way that goes against their moral beliefs, right?
So I think for a lot of religious individuals, these unwanted sexual behaviors are coming from, like they don't know where to find good information. They have some curiosity, they have some desire, they don't know what to do with it, and so pornography or masturbation becomes an outlet because they don't know what else to do.
Right. In both cases, the suppression or the engaging in behaviors that don't align with your beliefs, neither is a healthy [00:14:00] approach, right? Both are not preparing you for healthy sexual relationships. They're not contributing to sexual wholeness. But you know, and ironically, both can kind of, well not be solved, but so much healing and goodness can come for people on both sides, just from healthy faith-based education.
Crishelle: Beautifully said. I feel like as you were describing that, I was seeing like it's two sides of the same coin, almost like either, either one of those reactions and, and I'm sure that it's not just like A or B, I'm sure that it, you could land anywhere.
Carlie: Right.
Crishelle: And maybe you have some of both, right? Maybe you have some unwanted and some suppression unwanted sexual behavior, acting out, and then also suppression.
Right? I, I'm sure, I'm sure it's more of a [00:15:00] spectrum, but I, I feel like as you were explaining that, I also. I also was like, wow, it's so amazing how we do, we try to hide from, we try to hide from God. We try to hide from just like Adam and Eve hid from God, right? Initially, and, and that's often how we want to solve our pain or solve our not knowing what to do is we're like, okay, we'll just hide
Carlie: Yeah,
Crishelle: and, and how that usually, Doesn't lead to healing.
Right? And so I love this idea of, of faith-based education setting us free. I think that's so awesome. And so what, yeah, how do we go about that? Where do we, where do we go?
Carlie: Well, I think the first step is just recognizing that we can experience what's sometimes described. I really like this description. It did not come from me, [00:16:00] but the phrase sexual wholeness is one that I really like. I think the first step is recognizing that we can experience sexual wholeness. In any life stage as a religious individual, like I can fully embrace my faith in God, my faith in Jesus Christ, and myself as a sexual, being in, in every stage of my life, single, married, divorced, all the things like whatever, they will look different in every stage depending on what your values and your beliefs are. But it's possible to do that. You never have to live being afraid of feeling guilty for your sexual self.
Crishelle: That was so refreshing. Like even as you said that I [00:17:00] feel like I felt it deep within me and just resonate. Also, I feel like there was a little 21 year old Elle that was just like, what?
Carlie: I know. Hold up.
Crishelle: No way.
Carlie: Yeah,
Crishelle: Just 21 year old me, like all like, up until like probably 25, like all of me was like, what? But I, I, I, but I also felt that resonate, that it's true that, that we can have sexual wholeness. That it is possible no matter what your, your stage of life is. And a couple months ago I was having a conversation with my sister.
And I just told her, she's like 10 years younger than me, so she's dating and in college, and I just told her, I was like, I just want you to know that I trust you. I totally believe in you, and you're gonna figure it out. And I, I, yeah, I want you to know [00:18:00] that, first of all, and second of all, I want you to know that I know that Jesus Christ, his grace is sufficient for everything and anything and all the things. And, and then the third thing that I want you to know, and what I really wish for you that could be different than it was for me is that instead of having so much anxiety, you can approach all of this with confidence
Carlie: Mm-hmm.
Crishelle: and, and you can in, you can have just more assurance as you figure out what it is that you want in your life.
And in your relationship and in your, in your relationship with God, in your relationship with whoever you're dating and your relationship with yourself, I want you to have confidence. And it was, it was such a beautiful conversation because I realized that in order for me to like come to that realization, I, it was [00:19:00] years of of education, just like you're talking about years of me.
Searching for a different way than what I had been experiencing in approaching my sexuality, and it was so freeing.
Carlie: Yeah, yeah. So if anyone needs that pep talk, call Chelle because every young adult needs it.
Crishelle: Totally.
Carlie: Yeah. I just, I think that we are living. Below our privileges when it comes to our relationship with God, the closeness that we experience with God and the love that we feel from God. think a lot of that gets blocked.
By our own self-loathing and guilt tied to sexuality. Like I really do think [00:20:00] that exploring I'm not saying exploring your sexuality, like behaving in ways that you don't, that don't align with your values. I just mean like educating yourself on sexuality, coming to understand God's purposes behind your sexuality.
I think that not only are those things really empowering when it comes to living a sexually whole life, but also I really do believe that they. That doing so can open these new I don't even know how to describe it, can open this whole new relation part of your relationship with God that has, that maybe you haven't been accessing because of the guilt and fear that you're experiencing.
I really do think that this process can bring you closer to God, not the other way around, which I think is what a lot of people fear.
Crishelle: That's so beautiful. I just keep thinking [00:21:00] about Adam and Eve hiding and them being so scared, hiding
Carlie: Yeah.
Crishelle: like, I messed up. I can't. And, and then I'm
Carlie: God who told them to hide.
Crishelle: that's definitely
Carlie: He wasn't like, you guys should be ashamed of yourselves, which is what we often think, right?
Crishelle: In fact, like when they did come and talk to God again, God, like, he was just like, okay.
Let's get you close. You are naked. That's fine.
Carlie: And
Crishelle: Like it was not even like, I can't believe you're naked. Like there was no, no sassy comments from God. It was like, let's move forward together. And it was, I think that's so beautiful and so freeing because that has been my experiences. I have come to know and experience God more and more. That's how he responds. He, he's not like, shame on you. He's not, you messed up and now you're not worthy. It's [00:22:00] like, I am here. I am with you. I'm so glad you came to me. Yes, let's, let's go, let's, let's move forward together. And I, I hope, I just wish everyone knew that that's how God. Sees and views them, and I'm sure that I, I'm sure that will come, I, I'm sure in like 10 more years or whatever, I'll be like, wow, I still didn't understand his grace and his mercy and his love even then, and it's because it's, it's so, he's totally there for us.
And, and I think for me, the, the bridge came. In, in bridging this gap when I realized that God really did love me,
period. And I know that that's like so simple and, [00:23:00] but, but that helped me to realize that he loved every part of me. He loved my sexual side, he loved my emotional side. You love the, the side that gets really upset when she's scared. Like she, he loves all of me and, and his grace is sufficient for all of me.
Carlie: Yeah. Simple to say, but it, it is hard to get to the point where we believe it.
Crishelle: Totally. And it's okay. It's okay if you're like, man, I'm not there. It's okay if you're not there yet. I've been studying the New Testament this year, and I, I know we're, but that's the whole point. We're talking about God today with the Christian Sex Educator, and we're going there ladies and gentlemen, but I, I just think of the man who, who who's, who brings his child to the savior and is like, will you, will you heal my son?
And I hope that that's right. [00:24:00] I didn't get as much sleep last night. My toddler was very, very active. But I, and, and he, he is asking the savior to heal him, and the savior turns to him and says, do you believe? And, and the man says, I believe, and then he says, help thou my unbelief. I love that so much because if you have even a smidgen of faith, bring that faith.
With you did this conversation with God, with, with yourself, with other people, and then ask him to help you the rest of the way. I have that conversation all of the time with God because yes, I believe, and I have a lot of me that's like really freaking out. I'm not
Carlie: Yep. Same.
Crishelle: and so I just, I, I just hope that we can bring the faith that we have. To this and, and recognize that his grace is even sufficient for the faith that [00:25:00] we need.
Carlie: Yeah. Yeah, and specifically in this conversation about sexuality, like I recognize that a lot of people who are going to listen to this are, are likely feeling like, oh, we are far too far gone. You know, like we are way past. This like young adult, just barely starting to date, seriously, time to explore and learn about your sexuality.
Like I know that, that some of you who are listening are feeling like, I, I have spent years suppressing these feelings, or I have spent years trying to manage a struggle with pornography and, and it's not, it's not working right. Like I'm, I'm too far gone.
Crishelle: Yeah.
Carlie: But it just, I, I feel really grateful that too far gone doesn't exist, especially with God.
But in this case too, I [00:26:00] mean, I have seen such beautiful change and healing take place for all kinds of people in all different life stages when they learn to. both God and their sexuality in this space. Nobody's too far gone. Just doesn't exist.
Crishelle: Beautifully said, and I'm so glad that you brought that up because yeah, I feel like that's another one of the, the lies that we tell ourselves is that like, well, I've, I, it is just not possible. Like, yeah, 10 years ago, five years ago, last year, yesterday, maybe.
Carlie: Yeah.
Crishelle: But not now. And it's just definitely not true.
It's definitely not true. And, and yeah, it might not be as simple as like, oh, I read a new book and I have like reached sexual [00:27:00] wholeness. That's probably, it's probably not it,
Carlie: right.
Crishelle: it's not what it was for me. Or like, I'm getting married tomorrow, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna definitely be at sexual homeless like, Also probably not.
Probably not gonna,
probably not
Carlie: I mean, it's a journey like anything else, but this is a fun one. This is a really fun one to go on. Highly recommend it.
Crishelle: Definitely. Oh man, it is so fun. And it's so fun because I feel like on this journey of bridging this gap, I've learned so much about myself. I've learned so much about my husband, I've learned so much about God, and I've laughed a lot along the way, and I have, I've had so much fun, but I've also been like, wow, God really is so good and just like so surprised at. How so [00:28:00] surprised at how good he continues to prove himself to be?
Carlie: Yeah. I love that.
Crishelle: So,
Carlie: love that. And this, this part of ourselves, the, the capacity for sexual relationships, the desire to connect with other people sexually. I wholly believe that it was a part of our creation, like. God put this in us for a purpose. And he didn't wait. He doesn't wait to give it to us until we get married, which seems like it would make this process a little bit simpler,
Crishelle: Amen. Did that,
Carlie: might feel less desired to get married, but, but we are sexual beings from the day that we are born for our entire lives.
We don't become sexually or sexual when we become sexually active. This is a part of who we are. Our whole lives, and God [00:29:00] created us that way. So hating this part of ourselves, hiding this part of ourselves, being ashamed of this part of ourselves, it's totally unnecessary and really super discouraging. So,
Crishelle: discouraging. I also just wanna add in there also maybe hating the sexuality of others. I, yeah, I, I feel like that was, I remember a conversation with my therapist where he was like, you know, any man that you date or marry is going to have a sex drive? And I was like, no. Which is laughable. Now, at the time, not, it was not, it was not a joke. It was not, not something I even wanted to consider, but I no matter what your pain is, no matter what stopping you or, or maybe the roadblock for you in having sexual wholeness there's hope. And that's what I hope [00:30:00] that each of you walk away from this episode with is that there is so much hope.
And when you bridge those gap, when you bring your faith, your values, and your sexuality into harmony, there is so much joy and peace available for you.
Carlie: Amen. My friend,
Crishelle: Anything
Carlie: like, that was just so beautiful. I'm like, Done. But then my brain's like, wait, all these other things. So I'm just gonna ruin that beautiful ending and just say one more thing. Just because, just because you, you thought that you shared right before you wrapped it up so beautifully that I'm gonna ruin. Brought to mind there will. There will be people who listen to this episode who have had such negative experiences with sex and sexuality outside of their control, that it will be really, [00:31:00] really difficult to view sex as a good and happy thing. I recognize that sex is used and abused for. Awful, awful things in the world, and if you have been a victim of some of that, I am so, so sorry.
That's so unfair. I just, I just want them to know too, that there's hope in that space too, for believing again that sex is good. That it is. It can be used for terrible things, but sex and sexuality themselves are not what's terrible. What's terrible is the choices that other people have made. Right. It, there is still hope, even [00:32:00] in those really heavy situations, for believing that this part of yourself and this part of your current partner or future partner is good too.
Crishelle: Beautifully said, and I'm so glad you went there and listeners, and, and I, I just hope again that you walk away knowing that peace and joy and harmony and relief and healing are possible for you.
Carlie: Yeah.
Crishelle: So thank you so much, Carly. This has been such a beautiful discussion. And listeners again, you can find her at the Christian Sex. Wait, is it, what's your Instagram handle? I just
Carlie: Sex Educator, everything's the Christian Sex Educator, so that's how you can find me on Instagram. My website is the christian sex educator.com. If you can remember that, you can find all the things.
Crishelle: [00:33:00] Perfect. And again, she's got such incredible resources. Her emails are awesome. She's got a learning to orgasm course or what is it? It's not even a course, it's
just
Carlie: a guide. Yeah.
Crishelle: awesome.
Carlie: You can get it for 99.
Crishelle: Free 99, my favorite Price. But she's also got some incredible courses for every stage of your life for being single, for newlyweds and engaged couples and for people who are married.
And it's just, she's blessing the world. And if you, you know, resonate with any of the things that she's shared, or if you're like, I wanna have sexual wholeness in my life, go find her. Thank you so much, Carly.
Carlie: . Thanks so much for having me. It's been so good to be here.
If you or someone, you know, has struggled with unwanted pornography use and are done, trying to change on your own, go back a couple of episodes and listen to Chandler story. He shares how he found the courage to come out of hiding to [00:34:00] find the support he needed to make lasting change.
Chandler then created relay a group recovery program to help you quit porn by making it easier to have effective accountability, self care tools, and meaningful connection with your support group. Anytime you need it right on your phone.
Definitely go back and listen to my episode with Chandler. It's so great. Or use the link in the show notes to try relay out for yourself. You don't have to go at this alone anymore. You've got this.