Beyond Your Default

"Hold on, let me grab my notebook!"

If you've listened to Beyond Your Default for any length of time, you've likely caught George and I saying this to each other during our conversations. That's because, like you, we're walking our own Beyond Your Default paths. Like you, we are doing our best each and every day to live a more meaningful, purposeful, and authentic life.

We don't think of ourselves as masters preaching from upon high, with every lesson we need to learn as humans on this earth completely in our rearview mirror. Quite the contrary! We consider ourselves works in progress. 

⚡ Go Deeper: The Healing Power of Forgiving Ourselves

That's why we invited Don Stanley (whom you'll learn more about below!) onto the show for our first Work in Progress check-in episode.

Unlike our regular episodes, in which George and I talk to each other about very specific and well-defined topics, our Work in Progress episodes put both George and I in the hot seat with Don, who will talk to us about how our own Beyond Your Default journeys are going. 
  • What have we learned?
  • Where are we struggling?
  • What are we looking forward to?
These are some of the questions you can expect us to explore as we take you behind the scenes for a raw and honest look of what we're working through. In this first Work in Progress check-in, specifically, we discuss self-forgiveness, fear, and the circles we're building for ourselves. 

Meet Don Stanley, Our Interviewer

Don Stanley is an internationally recognized digital marketing and sales coach, speaker and university educator. As the co-founder of Wisconsin-based 3RhinoMedia, he has personally guided a wide array of clients ranging from Fortune 500 companies, professional athletes, start-ups, non-profit organizations and solopreneurs through the ever-changing digital marketing and sales landscape. During his 20+ years in business and in higher education he has worked with hundreds of businesses and thousands of students.

Don is often asked to share his perspectives on digital media and he has been featured on some of the top business blogs in the world including the Content Marketing Institute, the Content Marketing Academy and Mark Schaefer’s BusinessesGrow.com. He also has been featured on TV, radio and media including Marketplace Radio, This American Life, ABC News, CBS News, NBC News, USA Today, Sports Illustrated, and he is a regular guest on numerous podcasts. In addition to his work at 3RhinoMedia, Don is an award-winning faculty member at the University of Wisconsin-Madison where he teaches courses on social media and digital marketing.

Key Conversation Points
  • Don's role in the Beyond Your Default family. 
  • What has surprised George and Liz about their own Beyond Your Default journey since they hit record on the first episode. 
  • The greatest challenges George and Liz have faced thus far on their Beyond Your Default journey — from reactions of our listeners and the uphill climb as you approach success, to the impact our conversations have internally and how much we needed this podcast for ourselves.
  • Reflecting on episode 9 about relationships, George talked about the careful circles of friends, family, and community he's cultivated to stay grounded, as well as the thought leaders and mentors who shape his thinking.
  • Calling back to episode 15's topic of self-forgiveness, Liz shared her struggles and breakthroughs with self-forgiveness through her abusive upbringing, divorce, and rebuilding her life from scratch.
  • George recalled themes from episode 11 about fear by opening up about the fears he's currently wrestling with, as well as how he's working through them.
  • Liz talked about how she works to ground herself through the massive life changes she's been moving through this year — as well as the massive differences between our perceptions of what grounding is supposed to look like vs. what it actually looks like. 

Creators and Guests

Host
George B. Thomas
A catalyst for growth!

What is Beyond Your Default?

What Is Beyond Your Default? "Everyone keeps telling me I should be happy, but I'm not." “I feel stuck.” “I have a calling, but where do I start?"

Right now, you have a choice. You can continue living within your default norms, playing it safe, clocking in and out every day, and scraping by to achieve what's supposed to make you happy hopefully. Or you can choose to accept the challenge of living beyond your default. Stop wishing to live your "best life” and start living your best life. Success leaves clues. And they're waiting for you to discover them.

George B. Thomas:

This could go one of 2 ways. People could be, like, why did you share that? Or people could be, like, that's inspiring. And what I've learned is it's leaning on the level of inspiring for people. And it's leaning on this, oh, I deal with that too.

George B. Thomas:

And it's leaning in on wait. You mean I'm not alone? These are core things that I love to hear because it's my fuel. Understanding that these things are being unlocked in other humans because I've had to unlock them in myself. But if I get to the key thing, Don, that I think and why I'm telling this story in the very close, like, time frame that we've been doing this, I have realized 2 things that are very, very important for a human to understand.

George B. Thomas:

I've realized how far I've come and how much work I've actually how far I still have to go.

Liz Moorehead:

Welcome back to Beyond Your Default. I'm Liz Moorehead, your host. And as always, I'm joined by George b Thomas. How are you doing today, George?

George B. Thomas:

I am doing absolutely wonderful, Liz. I am doubly excited for today's episode.

Liz Moorehead:

Yeah. Today is gonna be a little bit different than from what our listeners are used to hearing, so I'm just going to dig right into it. We talk a lot about the fact that we're not only here sharing our lessons learned throughout our lives, our thoughts, our opinions, our feelings about things like forgiveness, fear, the relationships in our lives, and so on. We reference the fact that we're works in progress ourself, that you and I, George, are are also walking this path trying to live beyond both of our default states. Periodically, you and I will make jokes saying, you know, oh, you know, let me go grab my pen and my notebook.

Liz Moorehead:

I need to go take some notes on this. I'm sorry. Can you speak directly into the mic to talk about how you manage parental relationships one more time? Just asking for a friend. Right?

Liz Moorehead:

For today, we actually have a very, very special guest.

George B. Thomas:

Yes.

Liz Moorehead:

And you know what? I'm gonna share a little bit about our friend Don Stanley. How are you doing today, Don?

Don Stanley:

I am doing fantastic and beyond excited to be here.

Liz Moorehead:

We are so glad you're here. Let me give a little bit of background because I know George has some human stories he wants to share about how Don has ended up here. But Don, for our listeners at home, is an internationally recognized digital marketing and sales coach, speaker, and university educator. As the cofounder of Wisconsin based 3 Rhino Media, he has personally guided a wide array of clients ranging from Fortune 500 companies, professional athletes, startups, nonprofits, and solopreneurs through the ever changing digital marketing and sales landscape. He also, in addition to working at 3 Rhino Media, is an award winning faculty member of the University of Wisconsin Madison where he teaches courses on social media and digital marketing.

Liz Moorehead:

And it's just such a pleasure to have you here. George, talk a little bit about how Don has actually already been part of the Beyond Your Default family behind the scenes

George B. Thomas:

for a while. Yeah. Without a doubt. So first of all, I met Don in the comment section of a company that I worked for called The Sales Lion and have had the pleasure of actually meeting him in person multiple times, hanging out, chit chatting online multiple times. We even did a little bit of a show back in the day before, I think it was on Blab.

George B. Thomas:

I think the guy that was called Blab. Was. And, you know, so Don and I have been hanging out, but there's a couple things besides knowing Don for since 2013. Right? 2014.

George B. Thomas:

Don's just a great guy, but Don's also a great guy who has been through it, I'll say. Meaning, we've talked about our historical stories as kids and adults and different things that, we have gone through. And so Don has been a guy who, like me, Liz like you, has been on his own kind of come up. You know? Let me be better.

George B. Thomas:

Let me create better. Let me think better, and I've always admired that. And here's the thing. Don's that guy that I know that whenever we're having a powwow, we're chit chatting, he'll be able to be like, oh, have you read this book? Oh, did you watch that video?

George B. Thomas:

Oh, I've got this quote by this guy or this gal, and I'm just like and I, you know me, I absorb that stuff. I'm like, bring it on. Like, let me add to my Audible that I already spend way too much money on. Let give me another one. Like, let me find something to walk to or to fall asleep to.

George B. Thomas:

But more importantly, Liz, Don has an educator's mindset, and one of the things that we talked about for the beyond your default journey is that and for us and for others, we're like, it'd be nice to have worksheets. And in the future, it'd be nice to have a workbook. And so I was like, Don is the resource king. He's an educator with an educator's mindset. He understands how to educate and then activate, and that's one of the big things that I want for the beyond your default community is, like, activation off of the conversations that are hopefully educating the listeners into some insights in their own life, their own beliefs, their own mindsets.

George B. Thomas:

That is why Dawn has been behind the scenes listening to episodes, working on worksheets that will release in the near future, and is just part of this I don't know what to call it, but this thing, this movement, community, podcast to live a better life, to be a better self. Dawn has been part of it and is gonna be a part of it as we kinda move forward.

Liz Moorehead:

I'm so excited about it. Although, as our listeners are about to hear, when we turned Don loose on our archive of episodes, Don had a delightful idea, which in about 45 minutes or so, we're either gonna love it or we're gonna be like, okay. So what have we done?

George B. Thomas:

What did we do? I saw the questions. I saw the questions, Liz, and I was, like, excited with a tad of uh-oh.

Liz Moorehead:

Yeah. Because that's the thing, listeners. He's not here to discuss worksheets today. No. No.

Liz Moorehead:

No. No. No. No. A few weeks ago, Dawn, you came to us and said, I have some questions for you too.

Liz Moorehead:

Would you be open to periodically turning over the reins of the show to let me ask you, circling back to the very beginning of this conversation, what your journey is like with Beyond Your Default and how it's going. And George and I both said, sounds great, Don. Let's do it. Did you just switch a nice mug to a naughty mug? Do you have 2 mugs, George?

Liz Moorehead:

I'm sorry to break the 4th wall here. I got very confused.

George B. Thomas:

So here's the thing. I have a existential crisis. I do have a mug that has the word nice on one side and naughty on the next because my wife has started to do the whole Christmas thing around the house. So if you're listening to this on the podcast and you wanna see what in God's name is happening, obviously, you could run over to the community because we put the video versions of this in there. But, yes, Liz, it's I'm trying to figure out today if I wanna be nice, George, or well, never mind.

George B. Thomas:

Let's just get back to the episode.

Liz Moorehead:

Don, I'm gonna turn it over to you. Take us on this journey. Alright. I'm not a control freak. You are.

Liz Moorehead:

Shut up.

Don Stanley:

I'm so glad you agreed to this because what I'm trying to do is to kind of represent the community. As I'm listening to the shows, one of the things that I've thought about is like, what might other listeners be interested in? And as somebody who listens to a lot of podcasts, gathers a lot of resources as, you know, George brought up, so thank you both for the very kind introduction, and I'm thrilled to be here as well. But I wanted to ask questions about, like, you're digging in, but I wanna know more. Because moving beyond your default is kind of a messy process.

Don Stanley:

Right? And so it's this experience of where we have to give ourselves permission as we're growing to push through and not have everything perfect. So I'm here to represent the community, the audience, and ask you some questions. The first question is for both of you. What I really wanna learn, you talk about the old Liz or the old George versus the George today and the Liz today.

Don Stanley:

So I'm curious in terms of more recent past, when you started this and since you hit record, what have you learned about yourselves since you hit record for the first episode up to today by doing this Beyond Your Default?

Liz Moorehead:

George.

George B. Thomas:

I was gonna be a gentleman and let ladies go first, but I'll go first. So there's a couple things that I've learned about myself, but there's a couple things that I've learned along the way. And so, you know, what has surprised me, let's say, along this journey, is that the reaction that other people have had to us doing this. And what I mean is I've gotten everything from, hey, this is gonna dwarf what you've done historically to I've had somebody basically send me a mini movie based on an episode that we recorded that I just watched the video. Now this does something to somebody when this happens.

George B. Thomas:

And when I say it does something to somebody, what I mean is you go into, hey. We're gonna do beyond your default. We rah rah. Yeah. Yeah.

George B. Thomas:

We're gonna be vulnerable. We're gonna be ourselves. We're gonna go through the process. You yep. We're kinda scared.

George B. Thomas:

Like, we're we're sharing some real stuff with, like, a lot of people. This could go one of 2 ways. People could be like, why did you share that? Or people could be like, that's inspiring. And what I've learned is it's leaning on the level of inspiring for people, and it's leaning on this, Oh, I deal with that too, and it's leaning in on wait.

George B. Thomas:

You mean I'm not alone? These are core things that I love to hear because it's my fuel understanding that these things are being unlocked in other humans because I've had to unlock them in myself. But if I get to the key thing, Don, that I think and why I'm telling this story in the very close, like, time frame that we've been doing this, I have realized 2 things that are very, very important for a human to understand. I've realized how far I've come and how much work I've actually done in a positive way to become who I am. And because of that work, I also realize how far I still have to go.

Liz Moorehead:

That's freaking beautiful. Mhmm. Mhmm. I mean, for me, it's kind of strange. There are a couple of things that have surprised me.

Liz Moorehead:

1, I thought, you know, I was probably gonna be a bit more of a passive conversationalist in this discourse, you know, that my role was really just going to be exclusively interviewer. George and I had a very interesting conversation a few weeks ago where you said, I have one thing I'm gonna say to you, and then I'm immediately gonna hang up the phone so you can't respond.

George B. Thomas:

And I did. I did. I hung right up.

Liz Moorehead:

You did. I was very upset at you, and it's been haunting me ever since. I jokingly call myself a catalyst for catalysts. And then he said, Liz, when are you gonna realize you're also a catalyst? And then he just hung up the phone.

Liz Moorehead:

And I'm like, well, okay then.

George B. Thomas:

I'm getting goosebumps, by the way, with her telling that story.

Liz Moorehead:

When we first started recording these episodes, I didn't have an office to work in. I was in a very small Airbnb. It was at the height of some of the stuff that I've mentioned passively through other episodes that it has been a very challenging and difficult time. Mornings when I would wake up and I would look in the mirror, I knew who was looking back at me, but there is that feeling of it's going to get better. It's gonna get better.

Liz Moorehead:

It's gonna get better. Right? Mhmm. It can't stay like this forever. So it was interesting to have to get up every Monday morning at 7:45 and sit down and, quite frankly, act like I have my ish together when on many of those days, I didn't.

Liz Moorehead:

What was also fascinating to me is that how perfectly timed all of these episodes have been. In a lot of cases, whether we're talking about in marketing or sales or just in personal development like we're doing right now, you're often building the content you need. You're building the resources and tools and conversations that you need because they're missing and they're absent. So it has really been genuinely a guiding light for me in addition to, Liz, I don't care how many times you cried over the weekend. You gotta be up at 7:45 in front of a camera with a mic and sounding like a human.

Liz Moorehead:

So that was probably the greatest surprise, but also one of the greatest challenges is that I had an appointment with our community. So I find it almost perfectly timed in a way, you know, for our listeners. We're recording this the week of Thanksgiving. And I love the timing of that in a way because I'm immensely grateful for this opportunity. George with open arms has brought me into something that has been very close to his heart for years, and that kind of scared me.

Liz Moorehead:

You know what I mean? You wanna make sure you're doing right by the guy who's always been a hand up, not a handout to you particularly through very difficult times in your life. But also at the same time, you know, it's like, this is his baby. This is his child. Like, this is one of the many members of his family, and it's been very close to his heart.

Liz Moorehead:

So it's been an incredible growth experience that I did not expect because I've been doing podcasting and content for almost a decade. This was like, alright. I'm gonna show up, but, like, I'm invested. And I like this guy, and he's my friend, and he's been there for me. So, like, we're gonna go do some cool stuff.

Liz Moorehead:

But it has become way more monumental than I expected, and we're only on episode 18. Yeah. What? How did that happen?

George B. Thomas:

Yeah. Mhmm. Man, there's there's so much goodness to that, and it is interesting, Liz. I hadn't really thought about this being right around Thanksgiving, but the fact of the matter is I'm actually grateful for you and being so much help in us actually bringing this to the world. I'm thankful for Don and the elements that he's, bringing.

George B. Thomas:

And, honestly, I'm thankful for the crazy, dicey, corrosive, exciting, celebratory life that God has given me that I am not short of stories. I am not short of near death experiences. You know, I am not short of amazing friends that, you know, we can tap into and have conversations with in the future, And I'm excited that we have gotten the response that we have gotten just out of the I'll call it a handful handful of episodes that we've done. So, I'm feeling very blessed and very thankful right now.

Liz Moorehead:

But are you ready to get into the big spooky scary questions? That's the thing.

George B. Thomas:

Well, that's the thing. Like, I know Don's gonna, like, ask us, like, challenges, and that's where it gets scary because I gotta talk about some real stuff. Anyway, Don, back to you, brother.

Don Stanley:

Those answers are just amazing. And and, again, you know, speaking just from a community perspective, because I I do a lot of work with people who are in points of struggle. And I just wanna say just a quick thank you, thanksgiving. That you all are doing this type of show because it's so needed. We're, you know, sharing your vulnerabilities, your path, saying, you know, you've come a long way, you've got a long way to go.

Don Stanley:

Liz, you know, knowing what you've been going through. I mean, it's just it's a beautiful thing to be able to have humans who are sharing their experience but also can lead. So on that note, what have been, George, some of those greatest challenges?

George B. Thomas:

One of the biggest ones is honestly believing that any money would care. And it's funny because some of the responses I said earlier, like, this is gonna dwarf anything you've done historically, which I've just tried to be a happy, helpful, humble human. I've tried to chase significance instead of success, but believing that anybody cares about the stories. And I I actually I was out at dinner the other night with my daughters and my wife, and I started to talk about my excitement of beyond your default. And my wife was like, wait.

George B. Thomas:

You mean that you're talking about your life? And I was like, oh, that stings. Right? But it's not a lie. It is truth.

George B. Thomas:

But there's gotta be a belief in that there are lessons that can be learned in that story, lessons that can be learned in that life, but the belief that anybody actually cares to listen. I mean, I'm just a 52 year old normal guy who happens to have a little bit of a spark with a professional career and a heart for humans. Right? Like, that's, like, who I am, but I had to believe and this is the other challenging thing or one of the challenging things. I had to believe that I was created to bring this to the world.

George B. Thomas:

I was given this path for a reason because it was a destination that would be the starting line or the, you know, enabling point for potentially 100, if not 1000, of other humans because they can get the fast track on what my hard head had to, like, beat against the wall to actually figure out. And the other thing that's challenging, and I'm facing this more and more, it's kind of like my wife's statement, my own internal statements, and I think just the way that the universe works, to be honest with you, and I'm equipping myself with this, right, mentally and physically, and that is, for me, one of the hardest or greatest challenges is just the understanding that the closer you get to where you're supposed to be, the harder parts of your life become. Because the universe is fighting back for you not to do the thing that you're doing and the good that you're bringing and the, you know, like, the unlocks to so many other humans. And so I'm willing to go through those challenges. I'm willing to fight those battles because I know that it can only last so long, and I'll break through the other side.

George B. Thomas:

But this, like, who cares? I'm supposed to be the guy, and, oh, buckle up. This might get tough. There are many times in my life where I would have just tapped out. Yep.

George B. Thomas:

Thank you. 18 episodes is enough. Let's go home and just be normal now. There are a lot of people out there that might be listening to those three things and be like, I'm good. I don't need that in my life.

George B. Thomas:

Meanwhile, we're sitting here, and we're like, let's push forward for the greater good.

Don Stanley:

That is amazing. Alright. So the idea of thinking about one of the episodes in episode 9, George, you talk about people that you surround yourself with. And I know that you have moved a lot in your time if you listen to the episode on home. I had no idea, by the way.

Don Stanley:

That is just I can't imagine. I've had to move 9 times over a 2 year period of time, and I can't imagine at that age. But you've been so mobile and you've had so much transformation in your life. Are there certain people, teachers, mentors, friends, family, whether or not you know them personally, that have helped keep you grounded through this process, being so mobile and the transformation?

George B. Thomas:

Yeah. And it's it's funny because I think one of the things that eventually I wanna talk about is the reason for the season, and I don't mean in a Christmas sense even though I am again drinking out of my naughty mug and my nice mug here today. But a reason for the season, meaning the people that are in your life, and there's some that are constant. There's what we'll call forever people, forever friends, you know, family, whatever. And then there's some that you just learn lessons from, and then, hey.

George B. Thomas:

That's what it is. And so I have to just start out, Don, with listen. The person that keeps me rooted the most would be God Jesus. Right? Like, that's just I know him.

George B. Thomas:

Don't know him. Know him. Right? We could have a whole conversation on that. But second to that, I have to list out my wife and then my kids.

George B. Thomas:

My wife and kids do a real great job at keeping my ego deflated, my head small, just being a normal human being. But then friends like Brian, Eric, Don, I would have to list you in there, and others, like because I I keep a core set of friends digital and in person that, are there for reasons. I would be remissed if I didn't go back to even before agency life when I decided that I wanted to be a pastor and became a youth pastor, and a lot of that had to do with a gentleman. His name's Dave Wright, pastor Dave Wright of Trinity Baptist in North Canton, Ohio. He's not there anymore.

George B. Thomas:

He's, like, Lebanon, Indiana or I think it's Indiana. Anyway, I'd have to mention Bill Wiley when I worked at Faith Ranch. He was the camp director. He's no longer with us, but very instrumental in my life. I have to mention my parents.

George B. Thomas:

I would even mention my math teacher even though, like, he kept me grounded in a very interesting way, but also he's been the fuel to, like, get me to strive for many years to go in direction. Liz keeps me grounded. We have some human time conversations above and beyond this podcast, but even this podcast in itself with the time that we're talking keeps me grounded. I'd have to mention Angus Nelson and Tim, the evolved men that, Don, you're part of, I'm part of, and meeting every Tuesday with them and and then us using Marco Polo to come. Like, in my life, right, those are the people where I'm like, these are the set of humans that keep me grounded.

George B. Thomas:

By the way, I'm very thankful that I can list out that many people that are physically in my life. Now professional life, I have to mention Marcus Sheridan. He was a freaking massive spark into who I became professionally. I have to mention Remington Begg. They're both historical bosses that I had.

George B. Thomas:

Right? But there were always deep conversations. There were always challenges. There were always words of wisdom that were kind of, like, helping me go in a certain direction. People like Anne Hanley, just the salt of the earth, loving human, Ian Altman, Joey Coleman.

George B. Thomas:

And, again, blessed to even say that these people, like Jay Baer, and I could go on. Like, these people know me. Like, if I reach out, they say hi. If we see each other in the halls, we shake hands. And so to watch their success and then also understand their normal human beings and to erode this wall for most humans of, like, well, that's them and this is me to realize, no.

George B. Thomas:

That could be me because they could be me as well. There's differences, but we can get past those. And then there's the people that I don't know that I just, like, watch and pay attention to. So, Don, people like Tom Bilyeu, Impact Theory. Oh my god.

George B. Thomas:

That show that show is like summertime sweet tea and a cigar for me. It's like, oh my god. I just wanna sit down and watch this show. People like Brene Brown. I saw her at inbound, and her ability to talk about vulnerability and me wanting to embrace that same let me just be vulnerable.

George B. Thomas:

Let me be the man that can be vulnerable in the world and in conversation. Books, Gay Hendricks, The Big Leap, Jay Shetty, Think Like A Monk, Oprah Winfrey. People are like, why do you love Oprah so much? It's not because you get a car, you get a car, you get a car. If you haven't listened to her podcast, super soul, go listen to her podcast, super Soul, then come back to me, and you'll be like, oh, I know why you love Oprah so much.

George B. Thomas:

I'm on YouTube or TV, like pastors, pastor Lance, pastor Steven. I love TD Jakes. So these are all people that I'm paying attention to. And, again, super blessed that I've kind of created this relational box, physical, virtual, whatever you wanna call it, where I have these just great set of humans. And if you pay attention in different segments of my brain and body and spirit and to just kinda make this holistic human map of pieces and parts that I wanna pull and who I wanna become when I grow up.

Don Stanley:

That's outstanding. That actually gives me, you know, thinking about that and yet your response, it's like great exercise for us all to do is to think about in the different parts of our lives, the people who we have to be thankful for including I'm a big fan of Oprah and Tom Bilyeu as well. You know, people that we might not ever met or may never meet, but they're helping us on our path to move beyond our default. I've got so many thoughts in my mind, but I wanna move on to the next question. The next question is for Liz.

Don Stanley:

And I think so far, my favorite episode, I hate to pick favorites, but I'm going to is I think episode 15 on self forgiveness because it's something I am working hard through right now in my struggles in life. And, Liz, your story been very inspiring to me as you work through your process. And you've talked a lot about your divorce, your parents' abusive upbringing. What are some of the themes of self forgiveness that you're still working on?

Liz Moorehead:

You know, when I saw this question and you and I talked about it, I knew that this was the question that needed to be asked based on how my body physically reacted to it, which was to run immediately several states away, which means it's the conversation that we need to have. You know, self forgiveness is a theme throughout these things. You know, you were talking earlier about how you were amazed that George moved so many times when he was a kid. I I'm looking back over what my life has been from 2019 until now. I've been divorced twice from the same guy.

Liz Moorehead:

You know, because why do something soul crushing once when you can do it twice for twice the price? You know, it's always super fun. I don't regret it. And my upbringing, there was alcoholism in the house. There was a a lot of physical and verbal abuse, and it it made for a really unstable upbringing.

Liz Moorehead:

When I think about self forgiveness and how it has come through in this, I now understand actually why George wanted us to talk about forgiving others first before self forgiveness because he and I, when we were planning those 2 episodes, because it was a pair of episodes episodes that we did. Right? Before we spoke about self forgiveness, we talked about the importance of forgiving others. And I was never quite clear on them, like, wait, but shouldn't we be talking about self forgiveness first? Shouldn't it go the other way around?

Liz Moorehead:

And George was like, no, no. It needs to be that way. And he's absolutely right. Because it started with my ability to forgive others in my life, and then you kind of land on the self forgiveness aspect. You know, I had to think about, when you grow up as a kid of abuse, one of the things that they do not talk about is that even if you don't become an abuser yourself, you still mimic behavior you saw when you were a kid.

Liz Moorehead:

So I grew up in dysfunction, so I mimicked dysfunction because I didn't understand how to function in a, quote, unquote, normal way. And in fact, the things that felt the most psychologically safe to me were the exact precise instable or unstable environments that I was trying to get away from. So I spent years kind of in this very weird cycle of replicating the very things I was trying to get away from. The funny thing about self forgiveness that I've realized is that it is very hard to forgive yourself for things. Like, there have been days where I've woken up where I'm like, oh my God.

Liz Moorehead:

So Liz from 2 years ago, 2 months ago, 2 weeks ago, total moron. We're just gonna have to move on. You know? Like, that's hard. And, you know, it I think it's funny to say it that way, and we can laugh at it that way.

Liz Moorehead:

But I think there have been moments, and I've talked to George about this, where, like, I'll wake up, but I'm like, I don't know how I'm supposed to move forward because now that I'm looking at my past behavior through new lenses as I've grown up, how do I forgive myself for that? There are people who have every right to be very, very mad at me, but at some point, you're not punishing yourself for any good purpose. At some point, you have to decide, are you someone who is allowed to have made mistakes and just live your freaking life? I don't always feel great about that, but I do have to remind myself, you know, like, Liz, you're not a serial killer. Like, you're not looking at like, you're not you screwed up.

Liz Moorehead:

You screwed up multiple times. You were a hot stove toucher multiple times. Like, you sometimes have to learn lessons the hard way, but you eventually get there. But, I'd say the other big theme too, particularly, is realizing that I don't need to forgive myself for anything. Like, there are certain moments where I'm sitting here just feeling, like, absolute dog crap about myself.

Liz Moorehead:

The relationship I have with myself is still one I'm healing and working on a lot And it takes a lot of work because, for me, the biggest challenge is that, like, I am an only child of 2 only children. So I have no aunts, uncles, or cousins. I I have no brothers or sisters. I am my own safety net. I am my own support network, especially since now that I'm divorced.

Liz Moorehead:

So, like, all of this, like, all of this has to come from within. But I think one of the things that has been the most illuminating is realizing that sometimes I was holding myself accountable for things that I did not need to hold myself accountable for. Yes. That I was making myself responsible for the feelings of other people and not understanding that I am not responsible for everything. Yes.

Liz Moorehead:

You know, because that was how I was painted growing up. You know, the mistake, the thing that ruined things, all of these different things. And it's very corrosive narrative. So, the biggest theme of self forgiveness is self forgiveness is hard, but you also have to make sure that you are looking at your life clearly. Because when you get into these cycles,

George B. Thomas:

a what you said, Liz, just because I think there's things that people when they hear that will be like these moments for them. I think it's a deeper episode. It's a future episode, deeper topic. It's this idea of understanding what I'm responsible for, what I'm not responsible for, what I can change, what I can't change, where I need to give myself grace, where I need to push myself to get better. There's a whole rubrics around, like, what you were talking about that I can't wait to dig into in future episodes.

Liz Moorehead:

To give a perfect example, I'm not gonna speak to specifics about it, but I started noticing a pattern with a specific person in my life where if I would say something and it triggered them, they would literally say something to the effect of, well, you said this thing to me and I don't like how it made me feel. And my initial reaction was to try to make them feel better and to try to, like, fix things and to feel bad and to apologize for making them feel bad. And I didn't say anything that inflammatory. They were literally walking around saying, I don't know how to sit with my own discomfort. Now it's your problem.

Liz Moorehead:

And that's a different conversation to have if I'm sitting here saying, well, your sister is a duck, and your hat looks stupid. You know? Like, then, yes. I am an equitable player in that conversation, and they have a right to feel discomfort.

George B. Thomas:

Yeah. But if you said, hi. Good morning.

Liz Moorehead:

Yeah. It's one of those things where sometimes you can end up being a triggering force in somebody else's life. And and to be clear, you know, there's still plenty of other places where I'm like, no, Lizzie, you're the ding dong. You did that. You're gonna have to sit with that.

Liz Moorehead:

But I think it's easy to fall prey to that idea of you are responsible for everybody's emotions and how they experience the world. And that comes from trauma and stuff that I'm working through, you know, because when you're a kid growing up in that kind of environment, you're hyper vigilant. The feelings of everybody around you are of the utmost importance because that's where your safety comes from. It's a bit of a tight rope walk, but yeah. So self forgiveness, work in progress.

Liz Moorehead:

Working on it. But we're getting there.

Don Stanley:

And again, for somebody like me trying to represent the audience in this case, that's so helpful to hear because, you know, it hits to me into the ownership episode of what do we own about what happens with other people's reactions and experiences. It hits to the idea of surrounding ourselves with people who push us to be better, but also love us for who we are, that balance. And then also to the idea of, you know, this is what it takes to move beyond your default. And it is not easy, but it is worth it. And I know I'm gonna be listening to that clip multiple times as that is one of my biggest challenges is I think sometimes we've shared parts of our lives of, like, how do you move forward and reach that thing?

Don Stanley:

And George, you've said this a couple of times, and I think this is a huge part of moving beyond your default, which is, you know, you can't really truly love others until you love yourself. And loving yourself is hard because you have to love the messy parts, the things that nobody else knows about you that are sitting in your head and yeah. Wow. I wanna transition to the next question about, you know, and I think this relates in many, many ways is what are the fears, George, that you're currently working on and moving through in this season of your life? You know, as you continue to explore your own ways of living beyond your default?

George B. Thomas:

This is my question that I have to take a deep breath before I get started. I was like, no. Where did this come from?

Don Stanley:

You didn't get out of this.

George B. Thomas:

It's funny because I listen. We've done episode on fear. Right? And I'm like, false evidence appearing real, and I have really worked a lot on not being that, like, fear guy and trying to step out and do things. And, again, this is gonna tie right back to, like, I've come a long way, but I realize how far I have yet to go.

George B. Thomas:

There's really three things that I boil this down to that I still would say that I have a level of fear around. The first one is fear of success. I have come a long way since 2013, meaning in my professional life from an inbound 0, a HubSpot 0 to an inbound and HubSpot Hero, and really helping a lot of people and getting emails that I'm super humbled by. Like, he's the goat and, like, what? No.

George B. Thomas:

I'm just the guy helping people with HubSpot. It's a chip slow down, homey. Chill out a little bit over there. And that's been fun. But to look at where I'm at now and understand the complete mind explosion of what has happened in my life over the last year and roughly 6 or 7 months around some key concepts of being able to achieve what you wanna achieve, a new mindset on money and what it really is in our life, the true power of network and connection, the ability to just let go and things be successful, The idea of 1st player energy versus 2nd player energy.

George B. Thomas:

I look at all this, and I hear these people. Again, I referenced at the beginning of this. This is gonna dwarf anything that you've ever done. Excuse me? Kinda cool where I'm at, and I don't know what above this even looks like.

George B. Thomas:

And that starts to get scary for me. Right? So this idea of, like, what is the next level? What are the next stages? What is I just oh, I like, I have to meditate when I start to think about this.

George B. Thomas:

Yeah. I'd start doing deep breath.

Liz Moorehead:

You know that you hit a nerve with George when he stops speaking in acronyms and starts speaking in.

George B. Thomas:

Yeah. Yeah. So future success and what the next 2, 5, 10 years looks like. And, again, fear mixed with excitement. And we'll get to why, like, because I love that we're gonna talk about, like, the future and and stuff like that.

George B. Thomas:

But the other one too is and this is gonna sound weird for me because I totally have a growth mindset, but I fear growth. And by the way, yes, success and growth are 2 different things. What I'm talking about here is growth as an organization, as a company that I started. What I'm talking about here is growth as a human because I think sometimes you can grow too far or grow too fast, and then issues show up. So I wanna be very careful of not to lose myself through expedited growth, whether it be personal or professional.

George B. Thomas:

And so I'm always kind of like, am I doing too much? Am I doing too little? And, again, that anxiety and the need for deep breaths and meditation shows up, and I'm like, alright, dude, man. Or you just quit freaking overthinking it and just, like, let it be organic. But is organic enough?

George B. Thomas:

And then you go back into the cycle. The third thing, and I saved the best for last, by the way, it's the thing that I think I think about most. The thing that scares me the most is not screwing it up. Not screwing it up. You've put in so much work.

George B. Thomas:

You've put in so much time. You've become who you need to become. You're creating the things that you feel led to create. You're trying to impact the world in a certain way, and I've seen so many people get up into the, like, upper echelon mountain peak of their life that they wanted to get to and calling back to the closer you get to where you're supposed to be, the harder parts of your life are gonna become. I am always looking at how am I gonna f this up.

George B. Thomas:

Like, what am I gonna get blindsided by? What am I not paying attention to? Man, that scares the ish out of me. Don't screw it up, dude. Just do your thing.

George B. Thomas:

But those are the 3 things. Right? Fears of of success, fear of growth, and fear of just screwing this whole thing up, this journey that we're on.

Don Stanley:

That's, pretty pretty, powerful to be thinking about what the success element, you know, we often think about growing and growing into where we wanna go and that sometimes that, like, why are we being held back? And sometimes it's that fear, like, well, what if I get there?

George B. Thomas:

Yeah. Then what?

Don Stanley:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, Liz, got another question for you. And as you've talked about your challenges, how do you stay and I think of this in particular with the holidays coming up, and I know this isn't a holiday episode.

Don Stanley:

The holidays can be challenging. But how do you stay grounded and manage yourself as you're dealing with these massive changes?

Liz Moorehead:

I think becoming very comfortable with the idea that what we want grounded to look like and what it actually, you know, staying grounded looks like in practice are 2 wildly different things. I think we think of, you know, staying grounded, staying managed, you know, moving through big upheavals in our lives. We have a very kind of Instagram aesthetic viewpoint on it. Right? That it's calm, that it's filled with meditation.

Liz Moorehead:

You are this beacon in a storm that allows things to move through. No. Shit is hard. Okay? Divorce is not called happy, fun explosion time.

Liz Moorehead:

It's called divorce. And it's not fun.

George B. Thomas:

I like that even better, though.

Liz Moorehead:

I know. Right? Like, it's not fun. These are times that are going to be hard. I think sometimes what happens is that we believe in order to stay grounded or to be able to say that we're checking the grounding box, that we can't break down.

Liz Moorehead:

I have cried a lot. I have allowed myself to feel lots of feelings a lot. And when I say allow, it's not like I went, oh, Liz, you can go ahead and feel this. I didn't have a choice. Like, the tears were coming.

Liz Moorehead:

The rage was coming. The yelling at the sky. The, is this what surrender looks like was actually something I yelled in my car once while crying with my head pressed against the steering wheel. And that was in, I think, June no. It was in July.

Liz Moorehead:

It was in July. So how do I stay grounded? By getting up and just doing the damn thing every single day, and knowing it's not gonna be perfect every single day, that success isn't being some impenetrable feelings beacon. I'm a human being. As I've kind of come out of some of the aftershocks of some of the stuff that's happened over this year and over the past couple of years, quite frankly, The timeline of events here is that I originally got divorced in 2019, moved to Connecticut in the middle of February, and 2 weeks later, the entire country shut down.

Liz Moorehead:

And so I got to do an extreme version of dating yourself, which was really fun. I was it was basically a cliche, A divorced cat lady living by myself. And I was living in New England, which had some of the strictest rules right away. You know, like, you couldn't see people you I couldn't I didn't see people for months who I knew in person. Like, it was a really intense experience.

Liz Moorehead:

And then going through the the divorce again this time, it was excruciatingly painful because I made the right choice of this isn't right. And we've talked about this on previous episodes, so I don't I don't feel the need to go back there. I made the purposeful choice this time to blow things up because I learned what I needed to know and I knew it was time to go. Grounding now for me, it looks like understanding you're just gonna have to get up and live by a set of principles. And sometimes those principles are gonna shift.

Liz Moorehead:

They're gonna become more clear. They're gonna become more refined. And it does actually also involve some meditation. I mean, I would say, if we wanna get a little bit more tactical here, I would say the thing that has stood me in the in the most stead, a good stead, as I've gone through this grounding process is getting really clear about whether I'm looking at things through a lens of reality or through a lens of fear, and really becoming a master of my mind. That has required me to look at myself and say, so what are my escapist tendencies?

Liz Moorehead:

Because it's not always just fear. There are lots of other ways that kind of stuff shows up. And in some ways, you know, especially going into the holiday season, and I'll speak to that in just a moment, you know, it has been very challenging doing this on my own because there is no other person there. There's no mom. There's no dad to call.

Liz Moorehead:

There's no sister. There's no aunt who I just happened to have a really good relationship with growing up because they've all passed away. Most of my family is no longer here. It's scary. It is a terrifying thing because you finally have to look at yourself in the mirror and go, so what are my own trap doors that I built myself?

Liz Moorehead:

And where do they exist? The other thing too, though, is learning to be open with people is not something I'm very good at. So, I'm very lucky this year that I'm actually spending Thanksgiving with a friend. But the only reason I'm spending Thanksgiving with this friend is that he and I had a conversation where I was trying to explain to him, you know, hey, I have some trust issues and I know that they've kind of hurt our friendship in the past, and I wanted to talk a little bit about where they came from. I explained to him, you know, you've always been this really important person in my life because you do small things that are small to you, and they're very big to me.

Liz Moorehead:

I explained to him and I said, you know, Christmas during the pandemic, you were the only person who got me a Christmas gift. He didn't know that. And I said, yeah, you didn't have to do that. You randomly called me and said, hey, are you at your place? And I said yes.

Liz Moorehead:

And he came over and it was a game called throw throw burrito. Like, it's it's a game. Like, it wasn't it's amazing too. And I said, you know, that is an example of you doing a small thing that has an outsized impact for other people, so never underestimate that. And I explained, you know, I had spent Christmas on my own.

Liz Moorehead:

He's like, well, why did you spend Christmas by yourself? And I said, well, who because I I had nowhere to go. And then randomly he blurted out, what are you doing for Thanksgiving this year? You should come over. So it's this long winded explanation of of saying, you know, grounding is messy.

Liz Moorehead:

Grounding must be done with purpose. You have to find ways to master your mind. And at some point, to use the metaphor that George talked about in the episode about relationships, at some point, you are a cold piece of coal because you are deciding to keep yourself segmented from other people. So I'm learning how to be vulnerable with other people and ask for help because that's not something historically I've done very well.

George B. Thomas:

Okay. So I have listed down that we need to do an episode on what in the world is grounded anyway. Yeah. Because I think that's like, a word that can go a 1,000 different ways.

Liz Moorehead:

There's meditation. There's also screaming. Okay? Like, that's just telling me.

George B. Thomas:

Yeah. But, Liz, it's funny. This is gonna be very short so we can get into the last little bit that we wanna hit on this episode because, Don, I I do value your time, and I value the questions that you're asking and where this is making us go from a mental standpoint and where listeners are being taken on these additional journeys that they wouldn't have had. But I wrote down as you were talking, Liz, grounded and a question mark. Does it actually equal for many of the listeners unrealistic expectations.

George B. Thomas:

Meaning, are they changing the bar based on the day versus they wake up in a shit storm and they're still trying to do a normal life high jump that they would do during a everything is okay amazing day. And, like, being able to move the expectations of who you are and how you should or can show up, There can be different levels of grounded anyway. Again, future episode, Don, take us back into what we're supposed to be talking about.

Don Stanley:

This is what I love so much about following this journey and then also being able to be here. It's just my head is exploding with so many amazing thoughts from you all. I mean, the whole idea of you just said, Liz, about, you know, grounded means sometimes just screaming into the steering wheel and pounding, and that's okay. You know, we need to do that. We need to release, and that's a part of getting ourselves to grounded.

Don Stanley:

And with that, you know, just again, very, very powerful answers and episodes, and I just am so grateful speaking for the community for what you 2 are doing and what you are offering here. Which leads me to my final question because I am very excited to see about where the show goes and like as we learn to you know, I definitely love the master your mind. And I think that's a big part of what I wanna do as I follow this in 2024 and beyond. So for both of you, leading into 2024, what are you most excited for when it comes to Beyond the Default? Thinking about not only the podcast, but the community for yourself and for others.

George B. Thomas:

Liz, I'll let you go first on this, and then I'll close this bad boy out.

Liz Moorehead:

Of course he does. Of course he does.

Don Stanley:

And and he had the nice part of the mug showing as he did that, by the way.

Liz Moorehead:

I did. I did. Because he's not allowing me to hide anymore behind him, which is okay. I see the naughty mug. I see the naughty mug.

Liz Moorehead:

Choices are being made here. What am I most excited for? You know what? George, you said something earlier that really resonated with me is that you have a fear of success, and the reality is so do I. And you and I had a really great candid conversation about it a few weeks ago.

Liz Moorehead:

And because beyond your default has been unexpectedly triggering for me. I'll be honest. Like, not just like, beyond the conversations that we've been having, it's just I have always been so afraid of being a disappointment and letting people down. And that, you know, that's just my lot in life to be the the disappointment. And so when I think about what I'm actually very excited about is that maybe in some ways that makes me the right person to do this.

Liz Moorehead:

That, you know, when I think about what I'm most excited about, this is the first time in my life I'm looking back at my entire path. The good, the bad, the very, very ugly. And thinking, well, I was the only woman who was equipped to walk this path. And what if there was a way to show other people through it? George's book is called Beyond Your Default.

Liz Moorehead:

Mine is called confused screams of a cake in the oven, which probably gives you a very good idea of our different personalities.

George B. Thomas:

That's it. That's it. So, Don, I love this question for so many reasons. So let me just hit some high level stuff, and then we'll get everybody back to being able to think about couple things, what they're grateful for, what they're thankful for, and what changes they can make in their life, how they can start to live a life beyond their default. But when I think about the podcast, the community for myself, for others, I break it down like this.

George B. Thomas:

For the podcast, I'm super excited for, like, the exciting topics. And what I mean is we've been doing this episode, and I already have listed out and will comment and attach list to it, giving ourselves permission to grow, what are we really responsible for, what in the world is grounded anyway, and navigating the trap doors of our life. Like, that's 4 episodes in the future that I'm like, yep. We need to talk about those at a deeper level. And so this idea of just exciting topics that real humans have real hurdles with, and they need to be able to close the mental gap on them to get to the aspirational point that they're trying to get to.

George B. Thomas:

With the community, this is not the first time I've built community. I actually just feel like I've been built for community from the ground up and who I am, but the idea of being able to serve others inside of a community at a deeper level to really be there to love on them and help them. And and in my mind, it's the digital hand up for others like Don, like Liz, like myself, who are just like, man, I've always imagined that I'm supposed to be here, but dang it. Why am I stuck? I've got a fork in the road, and I don't know to turn left or turn right.

George B. Thomas:

Man, I just why does life suck? What doesn't? And so, like, if you're struggling with that, I just I'm excited to serve others in those moments. Myself, I started saying this in my professional life a couple years back, and I'm like, oh my god. This is what I was leaning to and this is where I'm going for myself.

George B. Thomas:

I'm super excited about this idea of significance. I'll talk about that in a hot minute. I'm gonna get somewhere real quick in a minute. For others, again, I want others through this process to love themselves. I want others through this process to trust themselves.

George B. Thomas:

I want others through this process to know themselves and to come to the realization that they are enough and to come to the realization that they can do extraordinary things as they move forward. For others, that's what I would wave a magic wand, pray, hope, whatever I gotta do for that piece. And so, really, if I boil this down, it comes down to, like, helping others, this idea of a hand up for the entire world, whoever this finds, by serendipity or by design, giving them a hand up, Learning more about myself along the way. Right? At the very beginning, I said, man, I've done a lot of work.

George B. Thomas:

I've come a long way, but, whoo, do we have a journey to travel yet? And being able to tweak my life along the way based on the exciting topics, based on the research that we do, based on the conversations that people are sending us in mini movies and, like, emails and different things that now all since it's like Star Trek. Sorry. It's like this borg mentality or mindset. Right?

George B. Thomas:

I know. I'm a nerd. I'm a nerd. But then really leaning into this being a catalyst for growth. Okay?

George B. Thomas:

And here's the thing. I was born in 1971, and I don't know when I'm gonna check out. I have no clue. It could be tomorrow. It could be 20 years from now.

George B. Thomas:

It could be 30 years from now. But I know that the most important piece, and I'm stealing this from somebody else. I didn't make this junk up, but the most important piece is that dash in the middle on my grave stone. Born 1971, died this date. Today, ladies and gentlemen, I am working on the dash in the middle.

George B. Thomas:

And for me, one of the things the dash in the middle is that I wanna be able to create this community. I wanna be able to build this podcast. I wanna be able to launch the book and know that somewhere in the dash in the middle that I went from a high school dropout, somebody who didn't believe in themselves, to a published author with who knows how many people in the community that I have created micro ripples in the ocean of life. And that when I do finally check out, that I can just simply ask this question. Can you please show me the ripples?