Hosted by the Ivey Academy at Ivey Business School, Learning in Action explores current topics in leadership and organizations. In this podcasting series, we invite our world-class faculty and a variety of industry experts to deliver insights from the latest research in leadership, examine areas of disruption and growth, and discuss how leaders can shape their organizations for success.
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SANDRA CUSHNIE: When you are in spaces with folks who are different. And you're in places that are different than where you grew up or where you typically operate. You are going to make mistakes. Accept that.
SEAN ACKLIN GRANT: Welcome to the Ivey Academy presents, Learning in Action. Your source for contemporary insights, research, and expert advice on business. In a globalized business environment, effective cross-cultural communication is essential. In this episode, we explore how cultural nuances influence our interactions and the importance of understanding global business etiquette.
Our guests are Sandra Cushnie, global leader in diversity, equity, and inclusion at McCain foods. Kwafo Ofori-Boateng, Vice President and senior partner at IBM Consulting. And Mohamed Satti, associate professor of management communications at Ivey Business School. They share their insights on navigating cultural differences and fostering inclusive communication in international business.
Join us as we discuss strategies to enhance communication skills, enabling more effective and respectful work across borders and cultures. This episode is hosted by Bryan Benjamin, executive director of the Ivey Academy at Ivey Business School. Let's get started.
BRYAN BENJAMIN: Mohammed, I am coming to you first. I would like you to start us off here by framing the importance of cross-cultural communication in today's business environment. How does understanding and navigating cultural differences enhance organizational success and individual leadership success? So over to you Mohammed.
MOHAMED SATTI: Thank you so much Bryan. It's good to be here with the other panelists today. In today's world, it is very important for businesses, for organizations to be connected with others. And you'll be hard pressed to come across any kind of business that does any business in one part of the world. And so your clients or your vendors, or your employees are bound to be from other parts of the world.
And so I think it's very important for you as an organization to know how to deal with and to communicate with people from different parts of the world. This can be, simple things like how to greet, or what kind of message to send, or how to receive that message, or what kind of feedback to give and so on.
BRYAN BENJAMIN: So Kwafo, I'm going to go to you next. So from your perspective, what role does cultural understanding and awareness play in fostering productive meetings and conversations, especially where different norms and expectations factor in to the conversation? Whether it's overtly or even maybe some of the hidden ones that are not as obvious to others.
KWAFO OFORI-BOATENG: So the thing is, you make a statement. And you've got to think, how is this going to be received? You've got to think, what is the cultural context? What is the organizational context of how it's going to be received? So I'll give you an example. So about 10 or 15 years ago I was on an engagement in Istanbul. And so we're on engagement in Istanbul and we're getting all excited. And we said, we think the deal is close.
So the planes land from New York. The guys show up. And we think the deal is close means that get the lawyers out there and sign the deal. Actually, we think the deal is close means we got invited to the key stakeholders home to have tea and meet his family. So we were 1/10 of the way there. But because we missed the cultural nuance of what that meant, we just thought, oh, the guys is inviting us to his house. The deal is closed, we're done. So it's those sorts of things.
In within an organization, this becomes tougher. The norms and cultural nuances of an edict in one part of the world means something very different. So within an organization, how do you issue a DEI initiative in one part of the world that's supposed to be interpreted globally without putting in that cultural context?
So I think those are some of the nuances. And we've got to be pretty deliberate about it, because otherwise there will be all sorts of unintended consequences. Both from an internal cultural perspective and also from achieving the goals of in an organization with, say, fiduciary duties.
BRYAN BENJAMIN: Great examples. And I've been in a similar situation where I completely misread as I thought we were mile 25 of the marathon. And we were actually just mile one. And there was a lot more relationship building and trust building that needed to happen before we were going to progress.
So Sandra, I think that was a perfect tee up to you, especially your role in a global organization. So let's hear a little bit about how some of this is playing out from your perspectives and learnings.
SANDRA CUSHNIE: Thank you. And a quick visual description for anyone who needs it. Sandra Cushnie, a Black woman, mid 50s, shoulder length, kinky, coily, charcoal colored hair. That's what I'm calling it now. Bright white streaks in the front, big black glasses. So that's what I look like.
I would agree that every organization will see increased diversity now, increases of people who are different, who have different lived experiences, who have different perspectives, all of that. As the global DEI leader, the challenge is not to try to export the values of one place and the norms of one place all over the world. At McCain, our founders famously said, as they started to expand McCain foods from Florenceville to different parts of the world, "drink the local wine."
What that means for us and how we continue to use that some 68 years later, is to say that we do need to take the time to understand the norms, the cultures, believe the people when they share with us what things mean and not export. In this case, my Canadianess and my North American perspective on anything, but especially when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion. Not exporting that wholly around the world.
BRYAN BENJAMIN: I love that perspective. I've been fortunate in my career, as well as a personal life to travel fairly extensively and experience cultures. And I think there's almost nothing better than going to a culture, immersing it, feeling it, seeing it, hearing it, tasting it. And you have that appreciation. What about employees that maybe haven't had that direct exposure, but are interacting with different cultures in their day to day roles? How do you help them drink the local wine when maybe they don't have a direct opportunity to do that?
SANDRA CUSHNIE: Yeah, that is tricky, I will agree. However, there is learning that we can do. Quite frankly, one of the better things that came of the pandemic was that to a certain degree, the world got a little bit smaller because we got more comfortable with using technology like this to bring people from disparate parts together, to have connection, to have conversation, to build awareness and understanding.
There's formal training, there's informal interactions. I think those are things that go a surprisingly long way as a global organization with employees that travel around the world. So we do have employees in 55 countries around the world. We also offer our employees a service called International SOS. And that is the service that helps folks to understand. And Yes, it's around cultural norms and practices, but also basic safety. Health and safety when folks are traveling.
So there's these levels. So I would say, there's all the way from extremely formal to very informal ways that folks can get awareness and understanding and exposure, even if they haven't had the opportunity to literally drink the local wine.
BRYAN BENJAMIN: Wonderful examples. Mohamed, I'm going to bring you in on this one because in your role, you're interacting with students from all over the world. What are some of the things that you've been able to do to increase cultural awareness, understanding, connection?
MOHAMED SATTI: Well, in my role as a professor at Ivey, what we do is, we usually have a session with all our students, be they undergrad students or grad students, in which we walk them through the nuances of cross-cultural communications. The things that many of us take for granted. So maybe the concept of time, whether to arrive to a meeting on time or not depending on which part of the world you are, how you shake hands, whether or not you make eye contact.
Here in the West, we teach students that when you walk into a meeting, you have a firm handshake and then you look someone straight in the eye and so on. In parts of Africa, parts of the Middle East, when you look someone straight in the eye, that is not the best thing to do because it means that you're challenging that person, especially if the person is more senior to you in rank.
And so these are some of the nuances of cross-cultural communications that we talk to the students about. Most of our grad students come from different countries, different parts of the world. So some of them are exposed to these things. And so the discussion is very rich that way. But for our undergrad students who are mostly local students, they're really fascinated by some of these differences.
BRYAN BENJAMIN: And I think when you talk about fascination, often it's tied with curiosity and learning. And your comment about-- it's one thing is to understand and appreciate a nuance that might be different. It's another one to actually recognize that something that may be a norm and expected in one part actually could have the opposite or unintended consequence. That sort of firm handshake and eye contact is a great example.
I've traveled to parts of the world where business cards are very important. And I very rarely hand out business cards in Canada. It's just changed the direction, where I've recently was on a trip and I actually ran out of business cards. I wish I had brought more. But it's an understanding and it's a great way to build that first connection with someone.
Kwafo, in your experiences and travels, thoughts on how you bring that cultural awareness and connection into the organization and support leaders.
KWAFO OFORI-BOATENG: Yeah, so I think there are a couple of levels to this. So I work for an organization that's in probably as many countries as we are not sanctioned not to work in. If there's no sanctions against working there, we're working there. But what you find is, I mean, back to your original question. And it's really saying that, if you don't have direct exposure to a culture, what do you do?
First of all, I think that there is the level of deliberateness about it. So you have to know as you go and work in parts of the Middle East, what the cultural norms are, and what's good, what's not. You also have to understand that what you were used to in your culture-- and I'll talk about culture in two ways. I mean, your culture as in your societal culture, is where the norms differ.
In the business world though, it becomes a question of the business culture. And that's what I want to stay for a moment, because I look at most organizations and you almost say, what is the culture of the organization? The culture of the organization has to do with some things like, what's your view on integrity? What's your view on diversity? What's your view on being bold?
There are some cultural things that are organizational culture. And that translates pretty well. That translates pretty well across languages, across societal cultures. The thing is that-- to Mohamed's point about looking people in the eye --you can still be bold and innovative without necessarily making people feel threatened. In an organization it's making all the people across all the geographies aware of what the organizational culture is. And that ought to be the overarching thing that you present as an organization. If I'm speaking in the business context.
However, you've got to work with people. So then you have to very deliberately understand how do you greet, how do you talk to people, how do you address people. And I've worked in many geographies. But there's some places you go. You're in Thailand, you know how you delineate hierarchy, same with many other parts of Asia. So I think those are the things that come into play. But none of that supersedes the organizational culture because otherwise you lose yourself.
BRYAN BENJAMIN: It's a great point. I really appreciate you framing the organizational culture. I don't know who coined this. But it's something I hold near and dear is, whether you define culture or not within your organization, you're going to have a culture. So you might as well be deliberate about defining it. Or it's going to define itself. And it might not define itself in the way that you would hope that it would.
So let's go back to you Sandra. And let's talk about culture within the global context. At the end of the day, the common thread is we all work and collaborate within McCain, but come from different backgrounds and come from different geographies. How do you interplay between organizational culture and individual cultures?
SANDRA CUSHNIE: That one is interesting. So Kwafo to your point, what I've done as a global DEI leader is to set up a framework and a structure within which we play. I don't presume that it is going to be the same in Toronto as it is in London, England, as it is in France.
So I work with partners who are very well acquainted with how to get things done at a regional level, while there is still a global structure. And the global structure is a systemic one. It's about leaders, structures, policies, practices, procedures, and interactions. So set the frame and work with my regional leaders in terms of how that gets operationalized on the ground.
And there is an overarching statement that I make in almost every training class that I have. All beliefs are welcome, all behaviors are not. At the end of the day, to the point that's made, there is a corporate expectation of behavior. It is one of respect, it is one of regard. And when someone steps outside of that, we have mechanisms to deal with it, because at the end of the day I am an HR executive and there are HR mechanisms. That's how we operationalize that idea of what is the culture here and what is the expectation.
BRYAN BENJAMIN: I'm going to throw this out to all of you. Feel free to chime in around. Have you encountered situations where maybe the local culture or norms clashed with the organizational culture? And maybe clash is a little bit too harsh of a word, but weren't as aligned as you would like them to be. And what that looked like? And how you navigated that?
SANDRA CUSHNIE: Absolutely, that's true. And I don't have to go very far in the world to find that actually. We had an unfortunately a number of cases this year where we had folks that had some unfortunate things to say out loud in very public forums.
That's where as I say, our internal mechanisms kick in. So we do have a code of conduct. We do have an expectation of our employee's behavior and behavior that falls outside of that and is unrepentant and unwilling to change. Well, that individual has some choices to make. Sometimes it's our choice, sometimes it's theirs.
BRYAN BENJAMIN: Kwafo.
KWAFO OFORI-BOATENG: No, I was going to say, I have to agree with that. I mean, granted, we're all sovereign human beings, right? So you employ a bunch of sovereign human beings. It's their choice to actually be part of a larger organization or not. So I mean, people are entitled to their views. But if their views are orthogonal to the views of the organization, then you're not welcome.
But I do think, but in a less polarizing or maybe in a more typical way, you find things like-- this is back to the edicts. You may have an organization that has a view of LGBT. Or you have an organization that has a view on how equality is defined and treated. And then you've got cultures. If you operate in global organization, how does that translate on the ground? How do you translate?
And that becomes a dicey issue. It becomes a really dicey issue, because to issue an edict on equality as a corporation, you are not thinking through religious, cultural, societal. There's a lot of other underlying things that you've got to think through, because when it is implemented on the ground in wherever, all over the four corners of the Earth, it's going to be implemented with those things in mind.
Unfortunately, again, the corporations culture should supersede everything. So unfortunately, I've had situations where we walked away from very lucrative clients and lucrative deals because, how do you go back to the ranch and explain to the people that you just shook hands and are doing a deal with an organization that does not believe in what we believe in as an organization for the sake of $1?
We had a client who indicated that we couldn't have somebody with a hijab on the ground in their offices. Well, we terminated the deal. It was like, what are you going to do? Our best person happens to wear a hijab. We took it that, you are forcing us to put out less than our best foot forward, so we're not doing it. But those are some of the consequences. When you have an organization that stands behind that stuff, I think you have already started to communicate what your culture is to your employees and your other clients.
BRYAN BENJAMIN: The saying, actions speak louder than words. I think where actions and words are aligned, that's a fantastic example. And it does mean tough decisions. But it would be very hard, I would think, to stand with any credibility if we say, this is what we espouse to and this is what we hold important. But in this case, we were willing to do something a little bit different, and those tough decisions.
And Sandra, your comment around, sometimes it's the person's decision. But sometimes it needs to be the organization's decision, is we're just not going to stand for something, or allow something to continue on, once the perspectives have been shared and the opportunities have been offered.
Mohamed, I'm going to bring you into the conversation. One of my favorite words whenever we're having a conversation on leadership is humility. So how do humility and openness help build bridges in cultural business relationships? So maybe from some of the conversations you've had in your classes. But also you've interacted with so many organizations throughout your career as well too. So start us off on the humility angle here.
MOHAMED SATTI: What I would say to this is that as an organization, when you go to a different culture, be humble, be willing to learn, accept the local cultures, the local traditions, the local values, and so on. And you have to be open to these ideas.
One example I always give to my students, Bryan, is that I used to live and work in Kuwait for many, many years. And I think my first week on the job, I walked into a meeting and there were males and females in the room, and of course I was shaking hands and so on. And when I got to one of the females, I offered my hand and she wouldn't take it.
Not in a rude way or anything, but it was just part of the culture that males and females don't shake hands. And so now I laugh and smile about it. But at the time, it was a very humbling experience and a steep learning curve. If I had perhaps taken the time just to learn a little bit about the local culture and so on, it would have saved me a lot of embarrassment.
Another example I have also about handshakes is from my time in Ghana. I used to again, live and work in Ghana. I remember once walking into a room with a bunch of people. And I think I saw one or two familiar faces. So I went straight up to them and started to shake hands. And they said, no, you don't do that.
In Ghana you start shaking hands from the right hand side. So they pointed me to that direction. They said go there and start working your way across the room. So again, it's part of the culture, and a very steep learning curve of course. But if you had taken the time to learn and be humble, it saves you a lot of embarrassment.
BRYAN BENJAMIN: It's a really important point. I think there's probably two aspects. So what can you do ahead of time to educate and understand? I'm also a big believer of, how you respond in the moment is also quite telling. So the handshake maybe caught me by surprise.
However, how I hold myself when I'm learning, right then and there, whether it's thank you for that insight. I wasn't aware of this. I will endeavor to learn more about that. And then you go over to the right and see your way through. I've been on both sides of that. I've had others learn. But I've also been in situations where I've learned in the moment as well. Sandra, Kwafo, what are your perspectives on humility and maybe in the moment, learning opportunities like Muhammad just touched on?
SANDRA CUSHNIE: I think humility is absolutely essential, as is the ability to learn how to apologize. I think that those things go together. When you are in spaces with folks who are different and you're in places that are different than where you grew up or where you typically operate, you are going to make mistakes, accept that. And be ready to be ready to apologize and move forward.
I think one of the things that I hear a lot from folks is how uncomfortable it gets when somebody over-indexes on the apology and makes it all about them, and it gets uncomfortable. So an efficient way of apologizing and continuing to move forward. By all means, let's avoid making the same mistake. It's not that you won't make mistakes. You will make mistakes. Try not to make the same one over and over again. That's what I would add. Kwafo, what about you?
KWAFO OFORI-BOATENG: This notion of humility is important because obviously we all know that most of communication is listening. And the moment you take the humility out, you're approaching it with an arrogance that says that I'm right and you're wrong. Yeah, I'm not even going to listen. And I think that becomes-- I look at myself, for instance.
So I was born in Africa. I did most of my meaningful professional education in North America. And now I work in, and live in Australia. Moving from North America to Australia, I'm like, ah, I know this place. They speak the same language. Watch the same cartoons. Simpsons is popular here too. You get into this arrogance without realizing, say hey, I could do this. So you almost stop listening and you stop having the humility.
I think the more difficult thing is-- if I had been sent to Japan, or I had been sent to somewhere with a very stark difference, I may have caught myself and said, no, I've got to learned something. But I think you get caught up when it's almost like, it looks about the same, smells about the same, must be the same. So just you don't listen.
And I think this is where a lot of-- it's easy to get tripped up to say, actually how business is run in New Zealand is very different from how business is run in France and how it's run in the UK, even though you may think it should be generally the same. So I think that's where humility comes in from my perspective.
BRYAN BENJAMIN: What a great example. I remember early in my career, I had the opportunity to live in the UK. And I had actually a similar mindset as, oh, my biggest challenge is going to be learning to drive on the other side of the road. It's like, actually, there's going to be many more nuances that I encountered pretty quickly.
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So in today's society of heightened EDI, how do we balance the need for an individual to change and/or to align with the organization's culture? And I like the flip of this is, how is the organization adapting to accommodate and embrace different cultural preferences of individuals? This could be relevant for organizations that maybe have operated in many countries for many years. But I would imagine it's equally important for organizations as maybe they expand into new geographies for the very first time.
KWAFO OFORI-BOATENG: So I would say on this one, in my experience, any organization that does not understand having that level of diversity means that you have group-think. It means that you are actually in danger of talking yourselves into a certain direction that doesn't represent society at large, or even your clients. So I think an organization understanding the importance of DEI is an organization-- is actually reflecting the reality of the world they live in. That's the first one.
The second one is I think, you will lose. And I think it's a great question because you will lose the best and brightest if you don't accommodate that level of diversity of the best and brightest. So you'll actually go down a path to say, all my employees should look this way, talk this way, and act this way, therefore, that's all I'm hiring. Well you just missed out on the other 90% of society.
And I think that's where organizations are increasingly-- and Sandra, it would be great to get your view. But I think the deliberate investment in DEI efforts-- which by the way, these days are getting more and more challenged. It's not because it's nice to do. It's actually got a much more Machiavellian reason, which is aligned with the principles of the fiduciary duty of these organizations, which is to say, if you want to stay alive, be competitive, attract the best and brightest. You can't pigeonhole yourself into anything.
SANDRA CUSHNIE: I agree with that on so many levels. I mean, when I have the conversation with folks where they ask me somewhat unwisely, what's the business case for diversity, equity, inclusion? There's three ways that folks will come at that. They'll answer that by saying, oh, it's the right thing to do. Yeah, sure, Kwafo, what you just said is the next one, which is there is a compelling business case that has been longitudinally proven to be true, that inclusive and diverse organizations do better.
There is no reason to believe that organizations are going to go backwards and become more homogeneous. There's no reason to believe that. So there's the business case. And then again in an organization, I lean on the fact that we have an expectation of how our employees behave. This is why we pay them. And we lean into our code of conduct. Yes, there is adaptation, there is also expectation.
MOHAMED SATTI: I mean, I always give the example of Canada. So last year the government of Canada told us that they accepted 450 or so thousand new permanent residents. This year that number is going up to about half a million. So whether we like it or not, here in Canada organizations have to adapt to diversity because diversity is coming to them. No longer are we seeing diversity as something that we have to go to, but it's coming to us. And I think that's one way to look at it and to try to adapt and embrace it.
BRYAN BENJAMIN: One of the things I love most about Canada is our amazing diversity. And I think it can be a real competitive advantage if we harness it effectively. I even think about my kids and some of the friends they've been able to make over their lifetime. They've got a global network already of understanding different cultures and different nuances. It's absolutely fantastic.
I want to touch on something a little different, but incredibly relevant. I didn't actually acknowledge this. Our panelists are joining us from different parts of the world. So while the sun is just rising here in Toronto, in London, it's long set, Kwafo, in your part of the world right now. I've been on global teams for a lot of my career and had to navigate different time zones and ways of connecting. Kwafo, can you start us off in the conversation about, how do we build connection and inclusivity when we're dealing with some real challenges that someone might be 15 hours ahead or behind someone else?
KWAFO OFORI-BOATENG: COVID helped a lot. Before COVID, we all jump on a plane and spend a lot of dead hours trying to convene somewhere. But I think that technology means that we're all very used to doing something like what we're doing right now. But then that actually presents its own challenges, which is well, so New York sets the time and then everybody else follows. Or London sets the time and everybody else follows.
What I've found works is two things. One is, in any 24 hour period, there's got to be at least four hours that is mutually convenient or reasonably convenient for most people. And that's when you do a lot of your group conversations. The second one is, asynchronous communication is OK too. We don't actually need to be staring at each other watching our movements all the time. You can actually have asynchronous conversations.
I was actually quite thrilled earlier this year. There's legislation certainly in Australia, that came out that said, there's the right to disconnect. So increasingly, we are seeing right to disconnect legislature coming out, which is to say, you can't abuse your employees. You can't abuse yourself by saying you're always on, because otherwise that's what's going to happen. You're going to be always on.
So it's almost to say, look, working hours are whatever it is, 9:00 to 5:00. And you have the right to not be available outside those hours. And that's OK, because in a 24 hour period, you'll get to it. And I think that's important to reemphasize, because otherwise we really will run ourselves ragged trying to follow the sun.
SANDRA CUSHNIE: From our perspective, one of the things that we do is, we do encourage people to plan their day. So on a day like this where I-- frankly, I started my calls at 6:00 AM Eastern time. I'm going to wrap my calls probably 3:00 to 4:00 PM. I'm not going to choose that this is the day that I'll jump on a call with our team in Australia starting at 10:00 PM.
There is a reasonability that needs to be applied. We're adults, we need to be able to look at our day and plan our day accordingly. There isn't an expectation that we work a 24 or 27 hour day. That's ridiculous. There's got to be reasonability. And I think that that's how we apply it here at McCain foods.
BRYAN BENJAMIN: Just having that open conversation, so maybe someone prefers a 6:00 AM call and someone else prefers an evening call in their part of the world. And that's how it works. And so trying to understand some of those nuances, but recognizing that probably doesn't make a lot of sense to do the 6:00 AM on the same day that I'm doing the 10:00 PM. That is not sustainable. I can't see anyone productive at both ends of that continuum.
And Kwafo, your comment around, not everything requires an on camera live conversation. Sometimes we default to that. Oh, let's book a meeting so that we can talk this through. We've talked a lot about in-person interactions. What about cultural differences when it comes to written communication or something that maybe is less interactive in the moment? Anyone want to comment?
KWAFO OFORI-BOATENG: I've got a quick story. A few years ago, before AI, somebody sent me an email. It opened with dear exalted leader. And I knew that it was a translation that just had gone completely wrong. But I think these days, what I find is communication and language are two different things.
I can have entire conversations and I know that I'm on a translation thing. They're on a translation thing. And we had a complete-- exactly, Google Translate, your friend. I've had entire interactions with people on Google Translate. And I know they can't speak a lick of English. And I know I can't speak a lick of Mandarin, but that's OK. And that's where we're getting to. So I think that's one thing.
The other thing I'm finding with cross-cultural communication is understanding when-- the number of times I've sent a quick email or quick text. Hey, can you tell me what the number was for last quarter? And the response I get back is, well good morning to you too. I didn't get into the preamble.
So I think that's important as you start dealing with written communication because you then don't have the advantage of saying, I look pretty happy. So when I said, hey, what's the number. I'm not angry. I'm not-- there's all sorts of stuff that get lost in translation. So I think it's important to be aware of the fact that your words, Yes, you've conveyed it, what are you dropping out? Are you missing out on feeling, on nuance, on how it might be received?
MOHAMED SATTI: That preamble is extremely important. From my time living in the Middle East, when you sent a message or an email to someone, you don't just get into it. There has to be a formal greeting. And you have to ask about their health and how they're doing. And Arabic is a very flowery language. And so there's lots of greetings and so on.
So similarly when you're closing that same message, it's not just thanks and goodbye. No, you have to wish them well and wish their family well and that kind of thing. So again, very different from our Western perspective, where as you said Kwafo, you just get straight into the message and you need information and that's it.
BRYAN BENJAMIN: And very important, I think, perspectives and understanding. And I've seen that as well too. Some is very formalized emails, like dear so-and-so. You realize, taking the time to do that means that the meat in the middle of the email gets a different level of attention and appreciation. Sometimes email is not the best way to communicate or written. So toggling between the two, when you want to actually be on camera versus asynchronous moment.
I'm going to go around the table, the virtual table here one last time and ask each of you to share parting comments, thoughts, ideas, suggestions. Each of you gave fantastic insights and real tangible examples. Who wants to give some final thoughts first here?
SANDRA CUSHNIE: What I'll do is, I'll wrap together the themes that I think the three of US built. So what's important here? We talked about humility, we said listening, I added apologizing. Overarchingly, it's about learning. And it's about that willingness to put yourself in a place of learning and really leaning in with humility.
And certainly, how I have navigated this space as someone who is a Canadian now working in lots of different countries and lots of different contexts, I have discovered that no one expects me to know walking in. And so they appreciate that humility and that openness. That's where I would go.
MOHAMED SATTI: Obviously, communication is incredibly complex. And culture, of course, is equally complex. My point here is that we tend to focus on all the differences that we have with other cultures. But there are lots of similarities too. And I think we should take that into consideration.
So if someone invites you in another country for-- or lets say, a meal in their home for instance. The expectation is that you walk in with-- I don't know --a bunch of flowers and a box of chocolates. And that's always appreciated. And no matter the culture, no matter the country, the region that you're in, there's always an appreciation in that.
BRYAN BENJAMIN: That's a great point. Even within some countries like Canada, we've got different nuances from Coast to Coast to Coast. So Sandra, you were just talking about spending time on the East Coast, spend a lot of time in Central Canada, Western Canada. There are different nuances within that.
So it might not be macro-cultural pieces, but interactions and connections, and even how we unfold in conversations. I'm going to keep that in mind. I'm sure Mohamed, you've seen that in your classes all the time with students coming from not just different parts of the world, but different parts of Canada.
MOHAMED SATTI: I think my parting thought based on this conversation to everyone is, it's about being deliberate. Everything we talk about, apologizing, listening, all that stuff. It's about being deliberate about it. It's not just going to happen. And the moment you almost take your eye off the ball and stop questioning, am I doing the right thing? Am I being observant enough? Am I being empathetic enough? Am I being anything enough? You're starting to lose it. So I think it's staying deliberate about it.
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SEAN ACKLIN GRANT: Thank you for tuning in to learning in action. We'd like to thank our guests, Sandra Cushnie, Kwafo ofori-Boateng, and Mohamed Satti. Learning in Action is produced by Rachel Jackson, Joanna Sheppard, and me, Sean Acklin Grant. Editing and audio mix by Carol Eugene Park. If you liked this episode, make sure to subscribe. You can also find more information by visiting ivyacademy.com, or follow us on social media at Ivey Academy for more content, upcoming events, and programs. We hope you'll join us again soon.
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