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Cinema Scope with Andy Nelson takes you on a captivating journey through the ever-evolving landscape of film. Moreover, it offers a unique and engaging perspective on the art of cinema.
Welcome to CinemaScope, where we venture into the chilling depths of cinema's genre landscapes. I'm Andy Nelson, your guide on this journey to bridge film genres, subgenres, and movements open ultimately deepening our understanding of them all. Today, we're immersing ourselves in the icy, brooding world of Nordic noir. Prepare to be captivated by the genre's bleak landscapes, complex characters, and haunting investigations as we uncover the secrets that lurk beneath the surface of Scandinavian society. Join us as we explore the key themes, motifs, and the profound impact of Nordic Noir on the global crime fiction scene.
Andy:Joining me today, I have professor of Scandinavian and Comparative Literature, Jakob Stuttgart Nielsen. Jakob, welcome to the show.
Jakob:Hi, Andy. Thanks for having me.
Andy:I'm thrilled to have you. This is gonna be a great conversation about a lot of really interesting stories. So let's just start getting a a sense as to your background. What initially drew you to kind of study Scandinavian literature and specifically Nordic Noir? And and how did it kind of lead you to kind of become, an expert in this subject?
Jakob:Yeah. It's it's not it's not a very gruesome story, I'm afraid, to disappoint, your your listeners. And as you said, I I come from from from literature and something as far away from crime fiction as Henry James studies. So it couldn't be further afield. But when I when I came to, to London to take up, my job here at University College London, now back in 2007 as a lecturer then in Scandinavian literature, I was amazed a few years later by going to the underground in London and seeing people everybody were reading Stieg Larsson, the girl with the dragon tattoo.
Jakob:I mean, coming from Scandinavian literature, that's not something you're used to do. I mean, you're not used to seeing people reading Scandinavian literature everywhere. So it was a bit of a, it was a bit of a surprise to see this. And slowly thereafter, journalists started calling me, trying to explain how can it be that these, you know, wonderfully happy, egalitarian, orderly welfare states in Scandinavia. They're producing so much crime.
Jakob:We saw the Wallander series coming out on TV. We had The Killing, you know, all these, the crime wave that started in Scandinavia around 2,009 in translation, at least. And so I started to think, well, I've gotta find out what this is all about. And I wanted to find out, you know, what is it that people know about Scandinavia? What is it they learn about Scandinavia through watching all these crime shows?
Jakob:And that's when we, decided in my department, Scandinavian Studies, to set up a book club. We call it the Nordic No Art Book Club. We thought that might catch on in 2010. And the idea here was really to engage with readers, with viewers, and try to understand what was it that they got from engaging with these, you know, incredible stories and and and crime stories about Scandinavia, and what kind of preconceptions did they have. And that took me to a, a really wonderful documentary on Nordic Noir, the story of Scandinavian crime fiction that came out on on BBC.
Jakob:So I really started sort of by accident to immerse myself in the world of Scandinavian crime coming from a completely different, area. And and and that's where I still am, you know, 15 years later, still asking answering questions now. You know, what is going on? And it has mostly been about literature. It's been about television series a lot here in the UK.
Jakob:And so I'm really thrilled about the opportunity to talk to you and your listeners about all the crime films that have come up because there are some crossovers, of course.
Andy:Yeah. I mean, it's such a fascinating, subgenre in the world of kind of crime stories, because it is so specifically set in one one part of the world. I guess, we should probably just start let's kind of get a definition as to, like, what Nordic Noir is. I mean, I've also heard Scandinavian Noir, and it's like, I know that, you know, there's kind of that defining part of the world, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Iceland, Greenland, I guess, is kind of included in that whole section.
Jakob:And the Faroe Islands. Yes. It's And
Andy:the Faroe Islands. Okay. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Andy:Right. So what is Nordic Noir?
Jakob:That's a great question. And after 15 years, I'm not I'm not sure I'm anywhere closer. I'm, like, one of those detectives who would have really never find who the murderer was in the end. So, I think that's part of the deal. And thinking about it as a genre is interesting as well because it is a if it is a genre, it's a genre that is using and reflecting, appropriating lots of established genres in crime fiction, both in literature and in film and television, coming from many other places, notably American hot, you know, hotboiled crime, whodunits in Britain.
Jakob:And can we really talk about the genre just because these genre films, these genre novels have been written or are set in a particular region, which we call the Nordic region or Scandinavia? That's an interesting question. And there are some traits that people have then been, lashing on to saying that this is what defines Nordic Noir. And some of the things that we have often heard going right back to the beginning of when people started using Nordic Noir as a concept, as a phenomenon, was that, of course, there has to be in Scandinavian languages, of which, as you just mentioned, there's quite a lot of them. In the beginning, it was mostly Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, that people thought of as belonging to the genre.
Jakob:The setting had to be recognizably Scandinavian, and we can get to later when we talk about the films what that might mean, what constitutes a Nordic landscape. But that was something that people really thought about that is associated with a kind of mood as well. So, a melancholy melancholic mood, it's all sort of in grayish tones. It is dark, and that's why people have associated probably with the sort of a film noir set, especially in the TV, side of things. We have very dark cityscapes, gloomy.
Jakob:It's always raining. Right? That's one of the characteristics of the Shangri. Raining or snowing. Yeah.
Jakob:It's raining or snowing. And then we have these detectives that are always like disgruntled, morose. They, they, you can see a lot is going on inside. Maybe not so much, action on the outside. We could talk about that later.
Jakob:But there's a lot of sort of psychological stuff going on with our detectives. And strong female leads was also something that people have mentioned. And finally, it was particularly outside of Scandinavia. It came associated with quality TV. A lot of these American television shows, The Wire, Sopranos that were, going on at the time.
Jakob:And the sort of the Scandinavian shows, no matter what kind of stories there were, were associated with sort of a high brow quality TV. Something that you could be allowed to watch TV even if you were an intellectual or if you were
Andy:a high brow consumer.
Jakob:And and, of course, it wasn't at all produced for for that particular segment In Scandinavia, this was family entertainment, if you would have it, or it was like prime time television. And when it traveled abroad, it became associated with sort of a high quality television.
Andy:Gotcha. Now part of the name, noir I I mean, film noir obviously is a very prominent, genre in American, cinema. But just to clarify, like, just because it has noir in the title, we're not saying that, like, it's it feels very different from film noir. There's not like femme fatales or the the you know, you're following a protagonist who falls for something or makes a bad decision and ends up going the wrong way in life. Like, this is totally different.
Andy:It's just noir. It's just kind of the darkness. It just kind of gives a sense for the mood, I guess. Right?
Jakob:I think so. And and and some people also associate it with the brand more than a genre where sort of everything that came out of Scandinavia, no matter what genre it was in, whether it was crime or thrillers or, drama or historical drama, it all became lumped into the same package of Nordic noir simply because it was Nordic and because it was associated with, you know, a bit of sort of psychological interest. You know, maybe social criticism was also some of the things that people have been thinking about. The Noir part, I guess, in some of the films, some of the early films, you see some aspects of neo noir maybe more that was, that could be associated with the 19 seventies, 19 eighties, but definitely a a step further away from from film noir, as the way it's understood.
Andy:Right. Right. Right. Now you've kind of talked a little bit about this. There's there is kind of this global impact that it's had as far as, like, especially these TV shows and the books and everything.
Andy:And, you know, a lot of these TV shows that started as Scandinavian shows have been remade, like The Killing is a Perfect Example. Like, we've had the American remake of that as well. So, I mean, I just think there's something important about Nordic Noir as far as this global reach that it has been having the last several decades. And that seems to be kind of an important part that I don't know. Did it surprise people, or is it something that has kind of created more recognition for it?
Andy:Yeah.
Jakob:I think it was a a massive surprise, especially for the television production companies. We have to remember that, especially the the Danish television dramas that were produced, sort of in the the 2,007 and the next decade, that they were produced for a a national audience, and they were produced with with that audience in mind. So a very local they are very local stories. Some of them are even dealing with everyday politics. In Scandinavia, a show like Borgen is a political drama that became a very famous show after the killing is certainly very, very local.
Jakob:So it was a surprise that these local shows seem to travel so well. They're also very different in in the way that they narrated that story. So let's see. The first season of The Killing was 20 episodes with 1 murder. I mean, who could have imagined that a story like that would would, you know, you know, grip the attention of people everywhere.
Jakob:And then The Bridge is another example, which very much is about, you know, a Danish cop and a Swedish cop and all this sort of, small disagreements and differences of national ideas and and, languages and stuff. How could that be, interesting to others? And there's been, remakes of the bridge. I think last time I counted, there were 7 or 8 different remakes set in different sort of border regions around the world. So it it's been quite, and it's very difficult today to think back to a time when there was no Nordic television internationally.
Jakob:Right? Where Right.
Andy:Yeah. Where
Jakob:if you were watching a a Nordic film, you were a film aficionado going to some art house cinema. These were not things that you would have access to. And I think just developing this list of films you were watching today, that would have been impossible before streaming, before the kind of technologies we have today, and also before television formats were internationalized the way they were. And I think I think Nordic Noir or Scandinavian Freim, had a big role to play also in the shaping of that audience. I mean, one of the first, shows that were produced by Netflix was Lilyhammer,
Andy:which has the you know, the first one.
Jakob:Yeah. Exactly. Well, the first one, set in sort of in Norway with an American mafia person sort of living anonymously in Norway and the kind of tensions between those. So I think, yes, it's a huge surprise and something that has been played with ever since. And to me, Nordegnoir is really only Nordegnoir in this perception of the border crossing aspect of it.
Jakob:That it's really only Nordegnoir when it translates into a sort of globalized or at least a transnational media landscape. Because, I mean, in Scandinavia, they're quite happy to talk about Danish crime fiction, just crime fiction, right? Or Swedish crime fiction. They see all the differences between the national, genres or the national ways of representing their own nations and the kind of things that they do. But as soon as it travels outside, it becomes a regional thing.
Jakob:And outside, you can see all the coherence between the the different, national styles or, the different narratives. So, yes, I agree. Nordic Noir is really a, a global phenomenon. It's it's a national phenomenon also in the way that we perceive the Shangri as as sort of a whole.
Andy:Well, let's let's take a step back and talk about where it came from because, like, I hadn't heard of Nordic Noir before, like, in in sometime in the last 10 years, it kind of was something that became an earworm probably with the popularity of the dragon tattoo with, the millennium trilogy. But, I mean, it started in literary origins is my understanding, and and kind of, like, that's where it grew from from. And, obviously, there had been crime stories. I mean, one of the films we'll talk about in our member bonus segment, is a is a film from the seventies. And so, I mean, there there's obviously crime stories out there.
Andy:So at what point like, what's the shift? How did it get to this place where we have Nordic Noir?
Jakob:Well, the term started, in 2,010. Okay. So it's a fairly new phenomenon thinking about Nordic Noir as a as a term that covers multiple, narratives that seems to have something in common apart from them just being crime stories. But, But of course, as you say, there's been crime stories going back to even before Edgar Allan Poe in the Nordic countries. There was a massive success with Schuylkill and Walr in the 1960s, 1970s.
Jakob:And this was the period, I think, one could say that Scandinavian crime fiction becomes its own. And in that case, Swedish crime fiction with Schuylkill and Valer starts becoming a literary field that sort of relies on its own stories. Previously, a lot of Scandinavian crime fiction published would be recognizable, if not adaptations, then at least very similar to the whodunit tradition, the clue puzzle, maybe sort of ironic takes on the hotboiled genre because it's it's very difficult to make San Francisco and Los Angeles, in in Scandinavia. But but there but a lot of the, a lot of the crime fiction up until the 19 6 seventies was always, you know, imported or sort of Scandinavian versions, recognizable versions of other traditions. But the Schwerle and Valu, you get sort of a sense that we have a particular kind of Scandinavian take on the crime genre and in that case, the police procedural.
Jakob:And of course, they didn't grab it out of the blue air. You know, they they took it from Ed McMahon in in some ways, but they really started thinking about how can we use the crime genre to talk about current political issues or current social issues, ethical issues that matters to people in this location in Sweden at time. And then you will find something similar around the same time in Norway. You have Gunnar Stolessen, who starts writing sort of Norwegian hardboiled, crime series. You have neorealists in Denmark writing psychological thrillers that are also very much investigating.
Jakob:What has happened to these Nordic states in the sort of post welfare state, if if we might say that, in in this sort of in in an age of crisis, in in an age of redefinition of what it means to live in these sort of small nation states to the far north that is becoming part of a much wider globalized, maybe some would say, neocaptalist, society, consumer society, and what have you. So that is when I would say Nordic Noir as a as genre, as a style, starts to develop without it being called Nordic Noir. Of course, this is just, you know, Swedish crime writing, Danish crime writing, and so on and so forth. But with Sherwin Valley, we start having that. And it's also the time where they start having international, impact.
Andy:And that's like because they're the authors of the Martin Beck series of detective thrillers. And and that's is is it when they start kind of, like, with that umbrella of, like, the Martin Beck novels that suddenly that is what causes that international reach?
Jakob:Yeah. I mean, they're not called the Martin Beck novels by them. They have a subtitle for it called novel of a crime. So they can conceive these 10, crime novels as their sort of they call it a scalpel, that they take apart the welfare state, the social democratic welfare state of the time. They are, of course, police procedurals as we would come to know them, but they're also full of social criticism of, you know, characters who are having issues with this and that.
Jakob:I mean, they had this welfare state in Sweden that they're describing is a dystopian welfare state, which of course didn't really, it's not realism, of course, at the time. But they saw there were some aspects of the welfare state that left some people behind and they were trying to investigate what happens to people living in this particular kind of a welfare regime or in in this kind of, society where everything is modernizing, everything is centralizing, and we have this growing state. What happens to all the old things? What happens to the police?
Andy:Who goes back behind.
Jakob:Right. Exactly. And it was also a time with where you have a lot of these novels. You have Vietnam War demonstrations. You have issues around modernization of the urban environment.
Jakob:You have the, reflection of the million homes program that we had in Sweden at the time, where the social welfare state starts to building all these new cities, where they moved all the workers out, you know, after sort of the duration of the city centers. So you have a lot of processes, social processes that are really changing society. And these crime novels were used to try and understand what is happening and also sort of poke a knife into sort of the self confidence, I think, of this sort of highly modernized, welfare state.
Andy:I mean and each of the countries had their own version of that, essentially. Right? Like, they all have their own governments. They all, the people are, have their own sets of beliefs and everything. But within that, because of just the changes in the world and everything else, they they all are still dealing with some of these issues of the wealth changes with the welfare straight state of different elements that are part of kind of these, social and political issues that they're all examining through these stories?
Jakob:Yeah. I think so. They they don't all have their own shiva and valor. As I said, and hot world crime is a really good reflection on the kind of oil boom that is happening. And he has one of his novels is set in Stavanger, which is the oil capital of Norway.
Jakob:So you have the literature that that deals with those kinds of changes to a to a nation that saw itself as as a kind of a backwater and becomes this sort of major player in sort of with capital and influx of of all sorts of of things from the from the great globalizing world. And in Denmark, you have a much more I would say it's it's sort of turning inside to investigate the psychological ramifications of of a of a new set of values that are coming in. And we find that in some of the crime novels written in the in the sixties seventies in Denmark, which are psychological thrillers, I would say. And and they also became, international films in their own right. And we see the first international adaptations of Scandinavian crime fiction already in the seventies, which is something that might surprise people apart from, The Laughing Policeman, with Walt Walter Matthau, in in the leading role, where, Stockholm has become San Francisco.
Andy:A little bit warmer. Yeah.
Jakob:Little different. Then you also have a Canadian production, of one of the Danish novels. You have the beginning of, a tradition in in German films taking on the Beck novels as well. So already in the seventies, we start to see this internationalization of the the Scandinavian crime novel, which is because I think I mean, the the the the Shangri itself, crime Shangri itself is an international Shangri to begin with. So it's something that, you know, can easily be adopted.
Jakob:And they were very successful in in Europe, these crime novels already in the sixties seventies.
Andy:And that's really interesting that at that point, we're already starting to see these, these adaptations and the genre already having a little bit of an international reach. And it hasn't quite become that point where it's Nordic noir yet, but it definitely is feeling like it's on the way. You know, we're at that point where it's a precursor. So from that point in the seventies to really I mean, I don't know. When would you say kind of the first I mean, the first films we're really talking about I mean, we have we'll talk about one from the seventies in our member bonus, but, otherwise, it's really kind of the nineties.
Andy:Is it about that point when there is this influx of popularity with both the writing and the adaptations?
Jakob:Yeah. I think it's really the writing here in the nineties that that sets the stage and adaptations, film adaptations of of those stories. And one we will also talk later is, Miss Miller's Sense of Snow, Peter Hoek, which is in the early nineties. At almost the same time, we have, Henning Mankell, who is publishing his first novels in the Wallander, series, 91, I think it is, with Faceless Killers. And and you have other of the of the major crime writers, coming out in the early nineties.
Jakob:And we are also starting to see sort of a collaboration between literature and then the film dimension to them. And Henning Mankell was one, is quite an interesting author because not only did he find out how to best sell his, his own writing in an international, market through the use of, of agents and so on, place them in particular places and and get good translations. But he also took control of the film rights of his works through establishing the film company Yellowbird, that has, produced a lot of the films, that is coming up.
Andy:Yeah. I saw its logo a lot when I was watching all these films.
Jakob:Exactly. And and so that was a very conscious strategy that he used. He also established his own publishing house, Neopart Verlage, to take control of his own content. And, admirably, he fund a lot of his other revenues from the selling of his content into the translation and publishing of mostly African, literature because he spent a great deal of his time, in Africa as a theater director as well. So it came out in, sort of a socially conscious, and sort of global, awareness idea for him that he wanted to further this aspect of of literature as well in Sweden.
Andy:I think that from the start, and I definitely see this in the as we start watching these films from the nineties. And, you know, I had I think the first book I actually read of of any of these was actually, miss Smilla's sense of snow. It actually wasn't miss Smilla's sense of snow, but whatever the it was a different snow. Feeling for snow. Yeah.
Andy:I knew the title was something. Miss miss Smilla's, feeling for snow. I read that in the nineties because, I mean, that was just one of those things that was on at the bookstore, like, you know, popular now. And I was like, oh, I wonder what that is all about. And it was a it was a thrilling book.
Andy:It was really interesting, and it kind of threw me into this this world of really enjoying a lot of these stories and the films. But I also think that there's an interesting element to society that we're seeing that's been growing quite a bit now with the fascination for crime stories in general. And I think you see it with, with network television as, like, discovery started pushing, like, investigation discovery and all these crime shows, like, true crime sorts of things. And then in the world of podcasts, I mean, true crime is still generally, like, the most popular genre of podcast that's out there. Like, people love crime stories, and I think that's I think there's something that taps into the darkness of these stories and then just also the complexity of the characters that is a draw for people as they as they start enjoying this and under and and kind of exploring these stories.
Jakob:Yeah. And I think I think the authors of the early nineties, they understood this because they were probably not just like me, they didn't come from a long tradition of having lived on crime fiction and and wanted to immediately go into crime fiction. Authors like Henning Mankell was writing other kinds of of literature. Mahesh Scherval and and Pierre Valleaux were also interested in doing other things, but they immediately saw that, okay, we can write about, you know, what is wrong in society. We can we can talk about these complex issues around families, about psychology, about the kind of things that, you know, occupies people.
Jakob:But in order to get readers, we need to find the form. We need to use a form that people will, will consume. And through that, we can then deliver the kind of, of stories they want. And I think that is one of the red threads that go through sort of the whole crime tradition in Scandinavia from the the nineties, from even from and all the way up to the Danish, television series that there is sort of this idea of providing a a narrative that people will find exciting, that will capture people, but at the same time there has to be sort of an ethical or moral or political or social story underneath of that. And that actually became one of the dogmas of the Danish, radio drama division that they had.
Jakob:They call it double double storytelling. But on the one hand, you have the exciting story, but you'd also have to have, something for, then investigate society in in a way because it it's it's a television station that produces drama for the whole population and and is funded by the population through,
Andy:Well, I mean, it makes it makes sense because, I mean, thinking about these films, and I guess, you know, let's just kind of expand on what we were talking about as far as, like, their key themes and characteristics. But, I mean, really, like, oftentimes, I mean, it paints society as, like, everything is kind of fine in society, but there is this dark underbelly that they really start exploring. There is this moral ambiguity that we start getting a sense of. We start seeing some, like, some racism and misogyny and flaws within the welfare state and and delving deep into the dark underbelly of what can happen within a family even, like, you know, how how people treat each other or socioeconomic status in some of the cases, you know, where, the what the rich can do or, you know, things like that. And I think that's what I really start seeing with these these films is that there's so much more than just a detective story of a police investigating a crime.
Andy:It really starts digging into more of these, these themes that, I think give people a sense of a darker sense of society that you know, and I guess there's there's always that human draw to watching the darkness. It's why people love horror movies too. It's like you wanna touch into the darkness so that you can feel more alive, so that you feel okay in your own world and everything. And by looking at the dark things that people do in some of these stories, you can get a sense of the world, but, also, you feel safer perhaps in your own, you know?
Jakob:Yeah. It's almost like the the crimes are investigating the detectives in
Andy:many of these,
Jakob:in these theories. So so the crime plots become a mirror image, of the detectives investigating themselves, their own feelings, not for Snow, but feelings for society, feelings for their family, their place in life. It is not and that's where we when you think about crime stories as critiques of the welfare state, that's not quite what I think is going on. They are the welfare states in Scandinavia was put in place to try and and and combat all these sort of inequalities, to make harmonious. So so there was a utopian idea in any way called called the people's home in Swedish.
Jakob:And and and this idea, of course, can only work so far because we are still humans. People are complex. People have emotions. They have aspirations. They have, you know, dark thoughts and dark and dark things happen in everywhere.
Jakob:So I I think the the crime novels are trying to investigate, you know, what is that's happening to me, to my family, to my society around me despite the fact that everything should be great?
Andy:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Jakob:That is what what is happening here. And I think Mankiewicz is a really good example of this again in his Faceless Killers, which was his first crime novel. He he came back from from being abroad, and he started seeing in Swedish society, there was all these tensions between, refugees coming in and and a growing sense of racism in a state that had prided itself with being sort of globalist, I mean, cosmopolitan, caring, and what have you. And he started out trying to investigate that, not by trying to, I guess, merely representing sort of right wing radicals or, you know, extremists. But by putting a whole human being in the, in the detective, in the middle of this, with all his sort of conflicting emotions, nostalgias, melancholic, understanding of what is happening to society, things have brought have gotten away from him.
Jakob:And he is trying to sort this out. And that's where many of these detectives, I think, in the tradition, they are they are plays that sort of they refract or they reflect the kind of tensions in society, and they're trying to work that through as much as they're trying to solve a crime.
Andy:Right. Yeah. There's a lot of that personal growth, which I suppose in, you know, in Hollywood script parlance is part of the you know, you wanna have your character arc, but you wanna have your story. And I suppose that's just part of the nature of of of any, as Hollywood say, any good script. But at the same time, I I can't help but feel like there is, there's just such a strong thematic sense of development for these characters, and you really kind of get this this sense of brooding that they have, particularly some of the ones that we'll be talking about.
Andy:Let's talk about the visuals a little bit and kind of get a sense of to of, like, establishing what these feel these this genre, this subgenre, feels like in style, cinematography, everything to kind of contribute to this atmosphere. I mean, we we're already talking about how there's often rain and snow, but what else really makes these films stand out?
Jakob:Well, I think I think the films are very different when we start having a look at how they how they are set up visually, how they're using light, how they're using shadows, how they're using different kinds of shots. Rewatching all these films again, one thing that that becomes quite apparent is that they they like to put, people standing on beaches looking out at the sea, which is always changing colors. So this kind of space between the the solidity of the land and the and the sort of waves that are constantly moving and the detectives contemplating the kind of natural environment as reflections of their own psyche. And I think that's how they use apart from that, that's how landscape and and lighting and colors are being used as representations of the psychological state of our characters. We get lots of sort of aerial shots, of of landscapes, whether it's in Greenland, whether it's in Northern Sweden, Northern Norway.
Jakob:The the landscapes becomes almost like characters in the film, and that is done through, you know, camera movement. They lead us into a story, but they also lead us back to a story again using often different kinds of of color palettes. It's quite clear that a lot of the the films from the nineties are quite dark in it. The the dark tones, if not gray. It's always November in in in Scandinavian films or or something, to that extent.
Andy:Or it feels that way.
Jakob:It feels that way.
Andy:Even even in the first film we're talking about, Insomnia, it's Norwegian summer, but it sure still feels like it's November.
Jakob:It feels very misty. Yeah. That that's absolutely right. And so I also feel that in some of these, films, there is a lot of work with with with characters' expressions and faces. Use of of close-up is is something that is, is quite apparent.
Jakob:So maybe less focus on on action and more focus on establishing characters through their expression. Lots of work with characters, I think. And and I think that comes out of a, cinematic tradition in in Scandinavia and, working with actors in in particular ways. There is, in particular, in the television industry in Denmark, there was at the at the outset when when in the late 19, early 2000, they started to to really think about how to produce a drama television in a Danish way. Of course, they went to, the set of NYPD Blue, the Fox Studios to try and learn how to how to do production of of of high quality TV drama.
Jakob:And they focused on the kind of the vision of the scriptwriter. But they were also working really closely with the film school, which is located almost next to the new Danish radio in Copenhagen. And this film school, of course, has produced some of the best cinematographers. There's some of the best directors. We have Winterberg.
Jakob:We have Las von Trier. We have we have all these sort of filmmakers. And the younger filmmakers who are coming out of that school, they, have been sort of many of them have been sort of through the the Danish radio drama division as well. So there is that, there is an auteur driven, almost a screenwriter driven, 1 vision going on, in the the drama presentation. So I think that's part of the quality, I think, of the of the way that the even the television series they work is in this very filmic mode because there is that interaction.
Jakob:Denmark is a small country. So, I mean, if you want to get something done, there's there's not that many opportunities. But so so there is that close relationship. That was actually something that was encouraged, and that was, worked on to that extent.
Andy:Interesting. Interesting. I I guess one other question that I have just before we start jumping into the films themselves. Other than, like, obviously, the the Nordic environment and everything like that, is there anything that you would say as far as, like, the way that these films are, like, paced or the story unfolds that actually makes them feel different from, like, a a crime thriller from America or Britain or somewhere else?
Jakob:Well, I think, first of all, I think they are slower in their in their character development, in some of these examples. Thing, of course, with television series, but also in some of the films, unless they are very obviously referring to a sort of Hollywood studio. I mean, one of the films like The Hunters is very clearly, using some of the, sort of visual language of a western or an American, crime thriller. So they have certainly learned to make internationally looking, you know, high high quality product high production value films and television series from from elsewhere. But I do think that the narratives are slower.
Jakob:They are much more interested in character development. They're exploring their detectives more than they are interested in the the action sequences. The the killing is one good example of that, where where you have 20 episodes in one murder. I mean, not many
Andy:people would
Jakob:would last that long. But that is really just not only to investigate the development of the of the detective, but also looking at the the family around the who have lost their child in a horrific murder.
Andy:Yeah. Right.
Jakob:So they're really exploring all these issues such as guilt. They're exploring issues, around empathy, how the the detectives, they translate what they're witnessing in the wider world and the crimes in their own family situations. So they are they are crime films, but as you also said earlier, they are so much more than crime films. They are merging a lot of different kinds of of genres. They are hybrid.
Jakob:And, some of them are very consciously hybrid, such as Stieg Larsson, crime novels. They are using all the different tropes and genre traits of of a lot of different kinds of crime, thrillers. So I have the feeling that they're also very keen at borrowing different kinds of genre traits from wherever they think it might work, and and and therefore using lots of different traditions.
Andy:Gotcha. Gotcha. It is fascinating to see how these stories, are constructed and unfold. Well, we're gonna talk about 5 films during the main show, and then we'll we're actually gonna do 6 films for the member bonus. And, so I'm gonna run down the list real quick.
Andy:We'll take a quick break, and we'll be right back. So the films we're gonna discuss are Eric, and you're gonna probably correct me on all these names when we get to them, but Eric Skjoldjarg's, Insomnia. That's a tough one. Baltazar Kormacher's Jar City, Niels Arden Oplev's The Girl With Dragon Tattoo, Morton Tildom's Headhunters, and Gustav Muller's The Guilty. And then for our member bonus, section, we'll discuss, Beau Viederberg's the man on the roof, Kjell Sundwall's the hunters, Billy August's Smilla's sense of snow, Daniel Lindlargloff's the pyramid, which is one of the, Valander TV, movies, Mikhail Norgaard's Department Queue, The Keeper of Lost Causes, and we'll end with Thomas Alfredsson's The Snowman.
Andy:So we'll be right back and we'll jump into the films. Let's, start tackling each of these movies. We're we're touching on, films from I think we're covering the gamut as far as all the different countries. We're gonna start with Insomnia. This is 1997, Eric Skild Skildberg.
Andy:Is that how you say it?
Jakob:Yeah. I guess so. Skildberg. Yeah.
Andy:Skildberg. Okay. Insomnia from 1997. This is, it has been remade. A lot of people might be familiar with the Christopher Nolan remake.
Andy:And, actually, I think this kind of speaks to what you've been talking about as far as that international reach. There is just so much as we go through this list of remakes and other versions of these stories. But let's start with this one. This story, Swedish detective, Jonas Angstrom, travels to a small Norwegian town to investigate a teenage girl's murder. When he accidentally shoots his partner and covers it up, Angstrom becomes entangled in a psychological game with the murder suspect As the perpetual daylight of the Norwegian summer and his guilt take a toll on his mental state, Angstrom's sleep deprivation and moral dilemma blur the lines between reality and delusion.
Andy:Desperate to conceal his own culpability, Angstrom tampers with evidence and frames others, ultimately leading to a confrontation with the killer and the truth of his own actions. So we're already out of the gate getting a story with a protagonist who's dabbling in right and wrong. Right?
Jakob:Absolutely. This is a a key a key, example, I think, of what Nordic Noir is to become. But it's also in its own right, it is a, I think it's an extraordinary piece of filmmaking as well. And you can see at this sort of the concept of the midnight sun can be used to, you know, advantage in film. Film is so much about shadows and light.
Jakob:And we talked about film noir. The setting itself and the whole concept of this sort of the beginning of the deterioration of the detective as mirrored in this sort of landscape and the midnight sun is just a great concept for for a film that is interested more in the psychology of the detective than in the crime plot itself. Because fairly early on, we know who's the who the killer is. We know what's going on. But it's really the sort of the slow deterioration of this detective and our realization that there is some, you know, there is something in in the closet.
Jakob:There are some things that are about to come out as he sort of goes down this, this slippery slope in in his sort of growing sense of guilt and and knowing what has what has happened. It is try it's his attempt to cover it up. And the midnight sun, it's already announced in the beginning when he's flying to Northern Norway. First of all, it's an interesting concept. We have the Swedish Swedish cup going to Norway to Tromso.
Andy:I was wondering about that. Yeah. That is that
Jakob:is kind of a strange a strange thing, to begin with. But there is that sense that he's being punished, from something that he has done, and he's sent to the furthest north. Right? That is, you know, as a punishment, which is, something we also see in many of these films where the the northern of the Nordic becomes sort of a a real backwater and something where people go if they have been punished or if they can't stand, things anymore. They return home in a way that the director, incidentally, is from so so
Andy:knew the knew
Jakob:the the this the the setting really, really well and and is using the the architecture of, really well as well as as this midnight sun. And the midnight sun is announced right from the beginning in the airplane. We have come to the land of the midnight sun, almost like a tourism
Andy:It sounds that way. Yeah.
Jakob:Yeah. It does. And then we just know that this is going to be really playing with with his mind. He's he's trying to put up, blankets in front of the windows, and there's always light coming through. No matter so that becomes, I guess, a metaphor for for his inability to cover up his own crime and to come to terms with his with his skills.
Jakob:So, which is really well made, of course, the film that that the use of lights, the use of settings, the use of of the architecture as well in the town, really plays it. It's quite a grim story as well, isn't it?
Andy:It's it's it is really grim. Yeah. I mean, because you're really getting a sense of, you know, the youth of this area and how there's not a lot to do there. So they're kind of coming up with their own things to do, and some of it ends up leading to some, some situations where they are getting into trouble. Not necessarily like the murder, but certainly, like, doing some other things, like some of these other teenage characters that that, he ends up talking to.
Andy:But, also, the one who does end up getting murdered, like, she's drawn into this these conversations with this author, and and it turns into this, you know, this tragic tale for her that it does give you this sense that some people, like you as you're finding out, some of these people have some information, but they're just like, they just don't necessarily wanna be talking to this this cop from Sweden coming in to to shake things up. Right? It's like it's almost like an unspoken element with these people. And we certainly will see this in some of these other stories, like when we get to the hunters, whenever we're talking about that one, about the people in these societies. It's a tragedy, but they're also, like, you know, let sleeping dogs lie sort of thing.
Andy:You know? And I I get that sense with some of these, these teenage characters who just don't wanna rock the boat or get themselves into trouble.
Jakob:It's a small town story, isn't it? I think I think every tradition has these stories about small towns and the big cities. And definitely in the Scandinavian tradition, you have tons of novels and TV series and films that are exactly about this difference between the small towns, the big cities, the north, the south. And then there's all these sort of, I guess, stereotypes about life, in in the small towns, you know, where there's these tight knit communities. And I think they're probably less about of course, this is not realism.
Jakob:Right? So there's it's less about how things really are, but it's more about trying to understand what happens to a close knit community. It could be a small town. It could be a family. It could be like a small nation state.
Jakob:What happens if you throw something in there that explodes? Right? And, you know, that the fabric of trust, the fabric of, people's sense of belonging, all these things, they start to come apart. And what ensures is often violence and and silence about the violence because you you feel everybody feels guilty or part of it in some ways. So I think that becomes sort of a stereotype that is being used in in in much of this kind of fiction where you have that small community that is being torn apart.
Jakob:And and many of the characters here, they they do represent that. And we have the detective who obviously is traumatized in some ways. And that is also another sort of trope that we see in Scandinavian crime. They there's something has happened to them, and they're either coming back or they're going to some place where that kind of trauma becomes exposed, and they start acting irrationally, or they start acting exactly like the crimes that they're investigating. So, especially in the Swedish, the Norwegian, sorry, original of this film, Insomnia, we we we we do see this latent violence in the cop as well, in in Jonas Skarsgos Jonas.
Jakob:And we find this in in other films we are going to talk about as well.
Andy:Well, that was, it's funny because I was watching this with my wife, and it gets to the point where he is gonna kill the dog so that he can have a bullet. And my wife is just like, oh, I I I'm I can't I don't like this guy anymore. I'm like, I don't think you're meant to like this guy. Like, that's not the story we're watching here. This isn't the American version, and that's No.
Andy:You know, certainly. Different. Oh, yeah. It definitely changes things, especially by the time we get to the end. This one, it doesn't end in a way where you feel like he is going to make a a change or anything.
Andy:Like, the version ends with the local cop pointing out the fact that she recognizes that he had swapped some evidence around, but that's kind of it. It kind of drops, and it's just like, okay. And now he's off on his way. You don't get that revelation that he because my recollection of the American remake is he's just like, do what you have to do. Like, you know, you're a good cop.
Andy:Like, you know, turn me in sort of thing. And it's not what we get here. We stay ambiguous.
Jakob:The American version is heroic in a sense. Right? I mean, antihero cop Yeah. Who becomes the hero in the end because he comes to terms with his own guilt, and and therefore, he portrayed his son. And luckily, we are we are spared the the killing of of a dog, but also the sort of molestation of of the the young girl by the by the police officers.
Jakob:So then lots of these sort of untidy things that we find in the Scandinavian narratives that have become cleaned up quite a bit. And another thing that's been cleaned up is exactly what is driving the plot. Because one of the things I find disturbing about the Norwegian film is that there's really no good explanation for why things happen the way they do. They simply just happen to our cop, right? That there's no rationale for him shooting his his partner.
Jakob:That's just something that it's an accident. Whereas there's a sense that there might be some reasons why he would do it in the American version of it. There's an explanation that is intimated. And so when when the when the perpetrator in the end, he he falls his own death. That's also there's no sort of real meaning to that.
Jakob:It just happens.
Andy:Yeah. Right.
Jakob:And so the cop in a way things happen to the cop. Right? And we see some of these cops in Scandinavian stories that they might be great investigators out of a good tradition of police procedurals, but a lot of things just happen to them. Accidents happen. There's something in society.
Jakob:There's something in the air, in the landscape, something that does this to people. And how do we navigate that existentially? How do we come to terms with these things just happening and you're finding yourself in the middle of them? And they sort of they produce a lot of anxiety in yourself. You'll come to terms with with who you are as a person.
Jakob:So they're they're led to this sort of openness without any form of conclusion, I think, which is disturbing in in itself because lots of things have happened.
Andy:Yeah. And I I think that's something that's interesting with, this version as opposed to the American version is when we have the killer and the cop, like, interacting, there's they feel closer in this film than in the American. Like, the American, it definitely feels like they're they're pushing at each other, trying to figure out how how to best each other. And this one, it just it ends up feeling like there's more in common with them than not, and I find that fascinating. And Stellan Skarsgard always plays these sorts of characters so well.
Andy:You know, he's great as the as our lead.
Jakob:An incredible an incredible actor who, of course, also had, lots of films with Las von Trier and others. So we can be see there is some connection between sort of really high brow experimental cinema and and the cast of these sort of more, I guess, popular formats or genre films, which is which is interesting.
Andy:And, of course, he'll pop up in the, American remake of Girl With the Dragon Tattoo as well.
Jakob:He will. Exactly. And lots of lots and lots of other sort of Hollywood blockbusters. What a career. But I think what you're what you're saying here about the the not that much difference between the cop and and the killer is something that you find in lots of these narratives as well.
Jakob:This proximity between the the the investigation and the investigate between the cop and the killer is something that is being worked through in different ways in this tradition. Not always with the same kind of outcome, I think, but in this one, it's much more existential, I think, in terms of coming to terms with your own with your own guilt.
Andy:Yeah. Yeah. The the next film we're gonna talk about I I don't think we we quite go down exactly that same road with the cop and the killer, but there is some interesting elements in here, especially as we're exploring the cop. The next film is Jar City. This is 2006 from Baltasar Kormakor.
Andy:We're going over to Iceland with this particular film. This takes place in Reykjavik. Inspector Erlandur investigates the murder of an elderly man named Hulberg found dead in in his apartment with his skull bashed in. A photograph of a young girl's grave discovered at the crime scene becomes a key piece of evidence. As Erland Uhr delves into Hulberg's past, he uncovers a web of dark secrets and hidden crimes spanning several decades.
Andy:His investigation leads him to a series of cold cases involving rape, a rare genetic disease, and police corruption. Erlender must confront the consequences of Long buried secrets while seeking justice in a society where the past is never truly forgotten. This, while he is a good cop, and he, you know, may not necessarily fall in line with with the the killer in this one, This one, we're starting to get a a sense we're or we're still getting a sense of some of that police corruption, and, that's one of the key elements of this film. This is also something different in this film that we haven't seen, and I'm trying to remember if we end up seeing it in any of them, but it's actually jumping back and forth in time, which was was a new element with this. That being said, it's Iceland, and it still feels pretty cold and and gloomy all the time.
Jakob:Yeah. I mean, jumping back and forth in time as a narrative device, that is not something that is used that often. But, you know, I think there are more than than this one. But you find some relationship between these crime stories and the Gothic tradition, particularly in the sense that there's always a past that comes back to haunt the present. Whether it's a cold case, whether it's sort of Nazi past, you know, historical things that have happened in the past that comes back to haunt both society, but also detectives is a common trope in many of these stories that I think they get from from the gothic tradition, which you can also see in the visual style.
Jakob:There's a lot of gothic elements, in this one as well. What is similar, I guess, with with this detective and Jonas, we've just been talking about, is that he's focusing as much on his own relationships with his own past or with his own family, and that becomes part of the narrative as well. And establishing probably more as a common trope in this film as we will see later on, the way that he cares for his his daughter, who is a drug addict. And there is this amazing scene with him eating, a sheep's head, and reading from the bible.
Andy:Amazing is one word for it.
Jakob:Amazing. It flows me it flows me every time I watch it.
Andy:I watch
Jakob:it a 100 times, but I can't get over it. It is it is really great. Great acting. It's such a great scene. Another thing that is where I think this one differs slightly from the sort of psychological thriller that we saw in Insomnia is this one is is really dealing with a contemporary Iceland at the time with this sort of the DNA research.
Jakob:And I don't know if if listeners would remember, but there was sort of in the mid nineties, there was this idea of this company that would map the the entire genome of the Icelandic population. And it was, said that this was a good idea because the Icelandic population is very homogeneous. They're up there in the North Atlantic. There's not a lot of, different influences. So it's a very harmonious sort of gene pool implied that this is one big family or one big nation family of of harmony and homogeneity, going back to the Icelandic sagas.
Jakob:So you can see how this plays into sort of a understanding of of a national identity. And and, of course, there's there's probably not that much to this whole idea that the the genome, sequence of of Islamic people is this harmonious or homogeneous as was initially sold. But this is a very real, project still ongoing to to map, the gene pool of of a nation in order to come up with cures for, hereditary diseases and other things. And that is sort of the the driving engine behind the the crime plot. And, of course, this crime novel becomes very critical of the kind of suggested harmony that you find in this idea of a of a common genome, either in a nation or in a family.
Jakob:So again, we see this mirror image between a wider sort of national story or a social story, an ethical story, really, and the implications of family in this. And so it is a family drama where the plot is around guilt, around carrying hereditary diseases and rape. And this is mirrored in our very quiet detective who is constantly seen in situations where he has to deal with issues in his own family.
Andy:Yeah. Right. Right.
Jakob:And he's incredibly quiet. I mean, that that's something that He is. Surprises me, how little he's actually saying, but how powerful that, the acting is. You can he's like an an open book when you're reading his face in many ways.
Andy:Oh, he was a great, that's Ingvar Eggert, Sigursson, and he was, just a fantastic lead for us as he went through the motions of being a detective. And he feels like a detective. You know? Like, when he is when he and his partner are talking to the, kind of the psycho in prison, and he is so completely unfazed by all the the digs at his daughter that this this, psychopath is making, whereas his partner is the one who's, more mentally affected by it. And I I found that to be so fascinating in the way that he handled those sorts of situations.
Andy:Like, he was so attuned to just, like, closing himself off personally. He was still dealing with it. You could tell, like, when he'd come home and he'd find his daughter just sleeping on the stairs outside of his door and bring her in and everything. Like, you you could tell that there is still a lot of weight he carried with that all the time, but it never pushed into those dealings that he had with the criminal underworld and everything. And that was it just is a great performance.
Andy:I enjoyed watching him immensely.
Jakob:It's such a complex a complex character who has to deal with so many different aspects of life as a professional policeman. It's one of the aspects I think many have commented on and that these police procedurals in the Scandinavian tradition, they seem very realistic. You know, of course, they're not realistic, but the the the focus on the work of a policeman and also the emotional work of policemen in these situations confronted with the kind of crimes that they're seeing and then still trying to to maintain a certain sense of normalcy or dignity in in their own life world and trying to keep those things at heart where it is impossible seems to be a very psychologically realistic in in many ways to viewers.
Andy:Absolutely. Now the title of the novel that this was, based on, it's Mirren, which I guess translates to, like, the bog, which figures more into kind of the plot as far as, like, this bog that the the victim's house is built upon. As we learn in the story, like, he had buried something. It was built on a bog, and underneath the house, they had buried a body. And that was kind of the whole the whole key there.
Andy:But, also, I love that title because it feels like this like, the type of society, like, the bog is just something that that buries things and, like, holds it in. You know? And it feels very interesting. And jar city, I think, works definitely for that DNA story, the genetic, you know, as we're studying these, genetic, diseases and everything. And as we learn things are stored there, that becomes kind of a key part of the story as well.
Andy:But, you know, I don't I guess I'm torn because the it's 2 titles that kind of take your you in different directions when you're understanding the the sense of the story. But I do feel like the bog has something that feels maybe a little more Nordic Noir than Jar City. You know? Yeah.
Jakob:A bog would be perfect for Nordic Noir. But, you know, I think I can completely understand that you're torn between those two titles because I I think the the I think the story itself is having those two images throughout the story. I mean, Alain Dour, the detective is himself referring to, in in a great speech towards the end of the novel is talking about a jar city for the whole nation. What what are you doing here in this sort of gene company? You're you're constructing a jar city for the whole nation.
Jakob:You're, you know, tampering with families. You're tampering with, you know, past. You're tampering with all these things that are much more than this sort of scientific attempt to to unlock the secrets of life so we can cure disease. And he's seeing sort of all the the ethical, the social issues around this whole scientific exploration, which is about creating a nation of jars and specimens rather than actual people. And and the bug is, of course, illustrating of the maybe a more sort of dystopian vision for a kind of society that is trying to map itself in this way, which is that everything will sink in a way into into sort of this, into this swamp.
Jakob:And and I think that the timing of the story is also quite interesting around, Iceland itself, which was, you know, in a nice quite sort of economic wonder and would later on craft spectacularly. And so there is also this tension within, you know, a self image of Iceland, that is being negotiated interestingly in crime fiction of the time to try and and, I guess, project some moral direction or critique of this kind of sort of self celebratory, self enclosed celebration of a homogenous society without without sort of any fear of the future.
Andy:It's a really fascinating story, the way that it unfolds and handles this crime. And, again, going back to the personal stories that become kind of like what's buried in a family's past as we as we come to the point where kind of the 2 interweaving stories fold into each other, and we kind of get to that point where the man who works for the genetic company ends up kind of coming into contact with our detective, and we we kind of see those stories finishing at that at that cemetery over the grave of the of the young girl. We're really starting to kind of get this understanding of how everything comes together and the tragedy of the crime itself and how, like, where where who's the guilty party? Who's, you know, who's innocent? And, like, that's what I found so interesting about this story is it doesn't give you any easy answers at all.
Andy:Right? It's just you're just left at the end of this story going, ugh, god. Like, this everything is just horrible.
Jakob:Yeah. Exactly. And and and that is produced by this, you know, idea that you can that you are you're guilty for your own genes in a sense. Right? That that's one thing of it.
Jakob:That he's a carrier of a gene that has killed his own child. And, of course, he, you know, he feels responsibility for that. But it also, it is impossible to live with the knowledge that this has happened through rape and through all these, things that happened to his family. And that it goes back generations, which is another, I think, red thread in many of these stories about what has happened to you in the past is being reproduced in the in the in the present and will have consequence in the future. And who is then guilty?
Jakob:So the victims become the guilty. The one investigating them becomes guilty because they can't really interfere. They can't intervene. They can't put things right. And in many ways, we have another detective here who becomes a bit redundant, really.
Jakob:I mean, he he can only really stand there and just watch and see what is unfolding.
Andy:Yeah. By the time we get to the exactly.
Jakob:Yeah. And and and that is another sort of desperation, I think, about that comes out of this film is that in many ways, you are just left with cleaning up after your, you know, your addict daughter, you know, carrying them when they need it, protecting them when they need it. But in the end, there's really not much you can do in in terms of intervening. And I find that, you know, quite an interesting take on a on a crime story, isn't it? That there is something that just rolls on, you know, without your ability to intervene.
Jakob:And that's a very desperate position, I guess, for a police detective who, like all of us, wants to find meaning in things and and and wants to find out, you know, what is black and what is white? What is who's the guilty? Who is the who is the victim? And that plays with our sense of of justice, I guess.
Andy:Right. Yeah. Exactly. We could look back to Insomnia with that too and just see the way that that film ends as far as the wrapping things up with the killer. It's like, okay.
Andy:But the whole thing ended. It was very I don't wanna say anticlimactic, but it like you said, he just falls and that's it. He falls into the water and dies, and that's kind of the end of that killer. I think I find that to be such an interesting way for these stories to unfold where you're just left with these situations where it's like, things keep moving, you know. Is anything better?
Andy:Is society healed? Probably not. We're just gonna kind of keep moving on. And, hey, at least that's dealt with. And that's kind of where we're left.
Jakob:And, of course, we also left with some with the this, the horrible crimes perpetrated against children by parents, which is another another another of the red threats we find in a lot of crime stories from Scandinavia is the really this investigative about hereditary guilt and and and about violence against children, violence against women, and how that, affects people in the present, the children who survives, and the and the the the police that then investigates them. It becomes sort of reflections of a society where the past is still haunting. Crimes of the past are still haunting the present. And we find lots of these, stories, in the hunters as well. You'll talk about later.
Jakob:We have we have violence against children that is, playing with the children of the present.
Andy:Well and speaking of, all of that is gonna tie into our next film, which is, perhaps the most well known on this list, The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, the 2009 adaptation by Aeneas Arden Hoploff, based on Stieg Larsson's novel, the first of the Millennium trilogy. It was a very popular series of novels. The films were pop very popular, led to the American remake. This story, disgraced journalist Mikhail Blomqvist is hired to by wealthy industrialist Henrik Wanger to investigate the 40 year old disappearance of his niece, Aided by the brilliant but troubled computer hacker, Lisbeth Selinder, Bloomquist uncovers a dark history of abuse, murder, and corruption within the Wanger family. As the 2 delve deeper into the case, they face increasingly dangerous threats from those who wish to keep the past buried.
Andy:It's a gripping thriller that combines a complex mystery with biting social commentary on violence against women and the abuse of power in Swedish society.
Jakob:Well, there we go, Andy.
Andy:Yeah. This yeah. Right. It's all right there. Yeah.
Jakob:This one. Sums it all up. Yeah. I mean, I think that speaks partly to, to to the novel itself that, that Oplio was working with, of course, that it is a novel that is just sort of all consuming when it comes to crime genres and crime subchangers and what have you. And in the novels, there are lots of scenes where we have the different characters reading crime novels.
Jakob:So we know who they when they're reading Peretzkin, we know they're on the right side. So there there is a real sort of conscious use of crime fiction tropes that Stig Larsson is playing with. He was a he was a consumer of crime fiction himself, as well as an investigative journalist. And it plays with the past. It plays with the presumed loss of a of a child in this Wanger family, in this sort of secluded island.
Jakob:There we have the we have sort of a locked room mystery or an island mystery that, Mikael, who is a disgraced journalist, who's just had a libel case against him, he's sort of sent to this island there, and it's north. That's, again, very important. Right? He's sent out
Andy:to the Away from the city.
Jakob:Away from the city, up north, you know, where, you know, where things will surely turn out, turn out wrong.
Andy:Right. Right.
Jakob:And it's as if I mean, he's been disgraced as a journalist, and he has to sort of regain it's called in the Swedish, it's called a trust capital, a fattonekapitat. He has to go and do this job as a journalist slash detective in order to regain the trust that, his magazine has lost because of the of the libel case. And the case is, the case is it's it's doing detective in order to show that you you can have the trust of others. And that's why he goes, because he's he's been promised that if he solves the case of the disappeared young woman when she was a child, the industrialist, Wanger, will give him the the pieces that he's missing so he can finally get, Wennelstein. It doesn't turn out to be, quite what he had hoped for.
Jakob:But so so it's really it's crime fiction by trial, this one. It's it's it's really interesting use of of genre.
Andy:Well and it's really tying into everything that we were just talking about with jar city as far as, like, you've got rape, abuse against women. You've got, abuse against children. You've got this sense of this society where or, like, the family drama where things are happening within the family that they're not talking about for generations, and then they're finally, at this point, trying to come to terms with that and deal with that. And that's that's a big part of of, Henrik Wanger as he is this industrialist. He's got this family that's all tied into the family business.
Andy:They're all various shades of of gray or darker and trying to and and and Blomkvist comes in and is trying to figure out, like, who is good here? I mean, I I think it seems pretty clear that Henrik Viger at least seems like one of the good ones. But, I mean, even he says any of them could have done it. Like, you just get this sense that, yeah, who is this family? And that goes into kind of the socioeconomic thing too.
Andy:Like, they have all the money. They can kind of get away with what they want. You know?
Jakob:And they have. I mean, the part of the story is, of course, that he uncovers with the help of Lisbeth Zalander's hacker skills, uncovers this kind of of Nazi past that this part of the family has, and it and this sort of the misogyny and the rapist tendencies have been inherited from father to son. That is part of, of course, what Michael, Blomqvist, uncovers. And so that is the the the crime plot. And and, of course, the the linking of sort of a Nazi past with sort of perpetrations of family against children is sort of what I talked about before, about this sort of recovery of ancient pasts and, you know, things that have gone wrong in the past will come and haunt the present.
Jakob:That's all part of that sort of narrative, that there is that sort of a national past that is also a family past, Right? That is, a perpetration that that has sort of ramifications for for the president. And so it sends out rings into the water of of the whole nation and and sort of engulfs everybody. And it's the detective's abilities of putting together the big puzzle that will help us come to terms with hopefully, what has happened in the past and therefore hopefully put them to rest, put things right. And you're right.
Jakob:Henning Vanga is a good industrialist, of which, the sort of Swedish welfare state that was founded on, it's quite clear. He's sort of, one of those who would have would have gone, together with the unions and formed this industrial welfare state back in the back in the sixties. And he's a he's sort of representation of that. And there are some other characters also representing the state who are sort of the good, the good characters, and then there are all the terrible characters.
Andy:Yeah. Like, the local cop is a good guy. The, I mean, it's not a big character, but, like, there's the local guy who from the, the paper. Like, there are a few people that seem like they're the good ones. It really this one really paints the family as a
Jakob:bad one. Yeah. But you also have the the first caretaker of Lisbeth Salander. He's also, like, a good character. Right?
Jakob:He's someone who's who takes his job as a caretaker, seriously. And, he's almost a father figure to Lisbeth Salander, who's, we talk about Lisbeth Zalanda as though she is sort of an accidental character. But, of course, at the time and still, she was probably the main reason why this narrative, right, this story became such a global sensation because she's such an iconic, figure and also a very complicated figure, probably a bit more complicated than, Mikael, Blomkvist himself. So yeah. So she is, of course, is one who's been wrong by the system.
Andy:Yeah. Well, and it's the Millennium trilogy, but it's every book is titled after her. Right? The girl with the dragon tattoo, the girl who who kicked the hornet's nest, who played with fire.
Jakob:Well, in the English translations, originally, the they were conceived as having sort of an an overarching title, which in in the Swedish would be men who hate women, which was seen as probably not selling too well, in the English market. It's probably true. But but they are they are stories about men and and misogyny and, and what has happened to this, this woman, Lisbeth Salanda, in the name of the of the of the system, the secret police, and what have you. It's it's a it's a it's a crazy story, of course.
Andy:Yeah. And there's a lot over the whole trilogy that we'll discover. But even here in this film, I mean, you you had mentioned early when we were talking about this is that we'll we'll find some strong female protagonists over the course of these stories. And this one's of the of the films that we're discussing here, this is the first one that we're coming to where we find that. We have a really fascinating and unconventional, as you've kind of already pointed out, protagonist that we have in our character of Lisbeth here.
Andy:And and and you could argue it, Mikhail is probably more the protagonist, but she's certainly right up there with him as one of our principals here and a key character of the story. And she's definitely kind of challenging the traditional expectations that we have come to see so far in these sorts of films, in which which I find quite interesting.
Jakob:The bisexual goth hacker with a massive dragon tattoo, those have probably become more popular ever since. But it was, it was a first for a lot of of crime fiction, of course, to have this kind of character. She is a very present figure throughout the trilogy, of course, a central figure. And it's it is what has happened to her in her past with with with with a father who was on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain, that the secret police was sort of harboring in in Sweden and sort of covering. And, he violated his wife and, Elizabeth's mother.
Jakob:And she has been in and out of institutions and caretakers, and she's being violated by her caretaker. And there's that, you know, incredible famous scene of of her tattooing a racist, such as Crake, a rapist pig, onto the the the body of, of him. So she was a a new kind of heroine, I think. Too many readers of crime fiction, but also with when the film came out, you know, a really in your face character who is, of course, not always on the right side of the law, but is is sort of bending it to herself and becomes very powerful partly through her, ability to hack into computers and and and to reveal lots of things. And and and Mikael is quite happy in the end to to use all the illicit information that she gives him in order to further his own course.
Jakob:And they become, like, a really interesting interesting pair, those 2 working together, attracted and to each other, but also leading different lives and sort of sort of constantly circling around each other. It's an interesting dynamic between the 2 of them.
Andy:Yeah. A real yin yang sort of vibe that you have with them over the course of which is interesting.
Jakob:Both coming from, the the children's literature tradition of Sweden, interestingly. Maybe, your listeners will remember Pippi Longstocking. And, and he and, Lisbeth Zelanders modeled on, a grown up Pippi Longstocking, and what would she do when she became, like, in her twenties rather than 8 years old. And and we know her, her apartment is called Villa Vila Cunla in the 2nd, second film, the second series, which is, of course, the name of Pippi Longstocking's house. And and and Mikkel Mikkel is constantly being teased with the fact that he, sounds like one of, Astrid Lindgren's master detective, so Blomqvist, who is sort of, this sort of do gooder, boy scout detective who helps the police, to to patch the the criminals.
Jakob:Sort of one of these sort of young adult, detective stories. So so they're playing with these conventions about, Swedish sort of archetypical children characters. And, of course, people also always sort of on the, on the edge of society, an outsider who is who is constantly trying to help out the the the good, and and fight evil in society.
Andy:Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. This film all takes place in, Sweden. Right?
Andy:Is there anything to be said in this world of Nordic Noir that we haven't touched on yet? Thinking about, like, this film is all Sweden. The last film was all Iceland, but Insomnia was a a Swedish detective who had gone to Norway, and that's the first one or, you know, where we're really kind of getting that potential conflict between countries in these films. You know, we'll see that here and there in this, but in in the circle of Nordic Noir, how often is that a trend?
Jakob:Well, most spectacularly in the TV series The Bridge, which is, where it's sort of the whole dynamic between the two detectives that there's these cultural differences. And and they will be well known to Scandinavians, watching it. And in in Insomnia, it's also used as, you know, they they don't understand him when he's speaking to the young people in the school, for instance. So it's a it's an outsider character again. Right?
Jakob:When you when you cross borders, you become an outsider, and there are all these sort of implied cultural conflicts or differences that is maybe related mostly to sort of teasing each other and, you know, showing up differences and and and stereotypes of of different nationalities.
Andy:Yeah. Because I know, like, I think and I can't remember if it's the department queue that we're gonna talk about or one of the other ones. I ended up watching a a couple of those because they're enjoyable. But there is one where they're going from Denmark across over to to Sweden, I think, and having some trouble with the local police and having like, getting kicked out of the country and stuff like that. So I feel like there are some times where they are kind of doing that, you know, and that is so Yeah.
Jakob:That's true. It's an interesting region in in that sense. Right? Because the before the European Union, there were still quasi open borders between them. So you can move somewhat freely between the different nations.
Jakob:There are some you know, a lot of long history about sort of internal colonization or have you switching of some some areas have been, you know, part of it one nation then is part of another. So there there's lots of sort of historical baggage, and they've also done things differently in many ways. They have different historical relationship with the 2nd World War, for instance. Norway, you know, tried to put up resistance. Denmark, you know, capitulated right away.
Jakob:Sweden was neutral. They have different histories with NATO. They have different histories in relationship to the to, of course, the Soviet Union in the in the for the for the wall, of course. So there are lots of different histories and and therefore and and different takes on on citizenship as well. So there are lots of differences that Scandinavians will notice when you're watching these films, especially when when the name cross into another culture.
Jakob:Lots of implied sort of often done with some a sense of humor and sort of nudging.
Andy:Right. Right. Right. Well and, I mean, not that it fits into our conversation necessarily, but even the original version of Speak No Evil, there's a I think it's a Danish and a Dutch couple that end up, you know, kind of meeting in Tuscany, and that leads to the whole story. And so it's yeah.
Andy:I feel like there's this there is this trend of these countries. Like, they're all close together. And, you know, I suppose coming from the states where it's like crossing from state to state, we don't have quite the same, you know, sense of that, but I do think it's interesting when you go from country to country. Like, there's just those little differences that that everybody has. You know?
Jakob:Well, you also have the an American culture, the the north and the southeast and the west. I mean, there there's lots of sort of similarities. They might speak the same language, but, there are also, you know, stereotypes of differences and assumptions about who, you know, who belongs what and and what they are. So
Andy:There's like Texas and California. There are some states that definitely feel different. Exactly. Exactly. Well, let's move on to our next film.
Andy:Probably my favorite of all the films on our list. It's, Martin Tildom's 2011 film, Headhunters, based on the or is it Joe Nesbo? Is that how you say?
Jakob:Yawn Nesbo.
Andy:Yo Nesbo.
Jakob:Yeah. Most people want Joe Nesbo, so that's fine. I guess.
Andy:That's that's my American His international. Of Zebo. Okay. The 2008 novel. This film, we're following Roger Brown who is a successful corporate headhunter who also leads a double life as an art thief to maintain his lavish lifestyle and keep his wife content.
Andy:When he meets Klas, a former mercenary with a valuable painting, Roger sees an opportunity for a major heist. However, the theft sets off a dangerous game of cat and mouse as Claes proves to be far more ruthless and cunning than anticipated. As Roger's carefully constructed life unravels, he must use all of his skills to stay one step ahead of his pursuer and uncover the truth behind Claes' motives. Headhunters is a gripping, darkly comedic thriller that keeps audiences on the edge of their seats. This film is a shift because, suddenly, we're no longer following any police at all or any detective work, really.
Jakob:Yeah. Exactly right. This is also, if you think about Ionescu, you're probably thinking about the Harry Hole novels, of which there are many now, live for what he's most well known. You can talk about The Snowman later on as being an adaptation of one of those many novels. And this was kind of this came out of the blue, I think, for for most people when it came out in, in 2,011.
Jakob:It's one of, Nesper's stand alone novels of which he has also written quite a few. It doesn't really fit within the Nordic Noir police procedural genres Right.
Andy:Yeah.
Jakob:Which which is great, I think, because there are actually quite a lot of films and also novels that really don't fit within that sort of schema, if you are, or in that genre. So but there might still be things that are, somewhat similar or something particular to to Norway in this sense. And I think, one of the underlying cultural aspects of this is this, idea of a society that is, that is really pumped up with a, high volume economy and, and consumer culture. And I think that is something that Johan Nesbure, as a as a writer, and very prominently in Harry Potter novels, that is something he's always returning to. He's also writing about Nazi past, but he's really writing about what is happening to Norway in the wake of all the oil wealth that has come into the country, what has happened to people's sense of morality, their sense of aspirations, the kind of values that are in the Norwegian society going from a a completely different low economy to to this high performing, economy, which was still at this point is fairly recent going back to the sixties seventies.
Jakob:So I do think we find some remnants of a cultural critique in there, or you don't think about that as much when you're watching them. Because it's just a high paced, constantly flip flopping story of Pursuit. So, our main character, he's a headhunter as profession. So he's trying to find the best deal for the high performing companies. And he has, in the beginning of this, talk about how to become ready to take on a big job in this company.
Jakob:You don't do that by having all the right things. You have it by reputation. Right? So you have to go Reputation.
Andy:It's all about reputation. Right? Exactly.
Jakob:So you have to go about roundabout ways, you know, bending stories in order to increase your reputation, and then you'll just slot in easily. Right? So it's all about performance.
Andy:Fascinating conversation. Yeah.
Jakob:Yeah.
Andy:Right?
Jakob:Exactly.
Andy:Well, which plays into him and his role over the course of the film, both as an art thief and this corporate headhunter. It also plays into Klas in the way that he, without ever having the conversation about reputation, ends up setting us up so much for exactly all of that. Like, you know, I think too, after they're they've been playing squash and they're in the, the locker room, and he notices all the scars on his body, and they're having this conversation about the work that he did, when he was a mercenary and everything. And and, like, all of this is is painting this picture of Klasset and his reputation in his mind. And it it without realizing or perhaps going so far as to think about what are the ramifications if I actually steal from this guy.
Andy:You know? And I think that's what's so fascinating is is is how that that changes. And I do think that there is something interesting in just the scope of Nordic Noir and these crime thrillers and just the range. And I think this is an important part of the conversation is because, I mean, they're not all gonna be detective thrillers, but you're still gonna you know, it still can fit into this subgenre. And I think that's we're looking at some of that evolution within this subgenre to get to a point where we're having a story like this that that I mean, he ends up being a good guy.
Andy:Right? I mean, he's he's an art thief, but we totally fall for this character and his relationship with his wife, and we start seeing how all of that unfolds. Yes, there's a lot of moral ambiguity that we have with this character. But as he learns his lesson, I guess, you could say over the course of the story, we're kind of right there with him and and buying into this journey that he takes. And I find that interesting within the context of what we've been talking about, some of these complex detective characters and the learning and the processing and the themes that involve their characters as they're going through their own lives as they solve these crimes.
Jakob:Honestly, I get a little bit annoyed with UNESCO here because I think I'm being played just as much as, as they're being played in this story because he's he's such an unappetizing human being, this Everest guy. Right? I mean, he's just the worst because he's completely superficial. All this high he he wants he's he's sort of so down on him being only 160 something. I mean, that's a completely ridiculous thought.
Jakob:Right? And then he's he's just pumping all this money, stealing art so his beautiful wife will have you know? So all these assumptions about what people have, all this high society, superficial. He's the worst kind of character you can imagine. Right?
Jakob:I mean, having a conversation with him would be impossible without feeling terrible. And I cannot understand how I start feeling empathy for him or sympathy or I want him to win. And it's just he he does all the wrong things for all the wrong reasons, but still I'm rooting for him. And, of course, that's partly because the other character is so unappetizing himself, played by Nikolai Costa Valda, that people will know from, a very famous television series, Game of Thrones. And and he really, he really plays that that part with a with a sort of an iron face as well.
Jakob:I mean, he's so unappetizing himself. So probably the in the contrast, you can you can sort of say, okay. That that's fine. I'll I have one over the other. But it's all about, you know, being tricked all the time.
Jakob:And I think the viewer is being tricked as well just as the art theme is being tricked by this being sort of the Rubens painting that he has that he wants to steal is is really a copy. He thinks the right thing. He wants to produce a copy to replace the copy. I mean, it's just it's just so much fun, and and you just want him to win all the time. And he's just making the wrong decisions all the time for the wrong reasons.
Jakob:I still wanted to win.
Andy:Well, and I I I think it's because he really I mean, they really put him through the ringer, and I think that's I mean, he hasn't got what he has to climb down into the into the outhouse. Like, starting from that point forward, it's like, okay. I I'm starting to root for this guy because, yeah, he's having to, like, really he's he's bottomed out, and now we get to see him rebuild himself. And, actually, that's That's
Jakob:a good time.
Andy:It's it's those it's like the conversations later with his wife that allow for those human, that human side to really develop as he learns his lessons. And I think it's it's a come up and sort of film. Like, he has to Yeah. He has to understand all of those mistakes that he's made. And, it's Exactly right.
Andy:Yeah. It makes it makes for a a powerful journey. I love it. The idea of, like, this double life and this criminal, I mean, do we get that sort of story, outside of this more in Nordic Noir?
Jakob:Yeah. I have no idea. I can't remember any good examples of this. I'm sure there must be.
Andy:Yeah.
Jakob:Come to think of it. I can't really think of it now.
Andy:Interesting.
Jakob:But it is one of those there's a lot of psychological realism in in kraners. I went back to some from at the Danish neorealist, one, Anders Bodelsen from the sixties in Denmark, the whereas, this this guy who who dresses up as a as a Santa Claus and sticks up sticks up a a bank and stuff. We where where you also have these sort of identities. You know, the the pursuer becomes the pursued, and and you have these sort of displacements of, of who is the guilty one and and and what what's going on and and how this psychological impact has on on this sort of, individual and and how they grow with it. And when they've been down in the toilet, they come up at the end.
Jakob:So there are some similar narratives, but not quite to this, sort of high concept idea that the Nesbrough carried out. He's just such a master of of genres, Nesbrough, which is, I mean, one of the reasons why probably, you know, half of the translated books sold in the UK over the last, 10 years have been Nesper novels. He's he's an incredible force in the publishing business. And Holy cow. Strangely enough, not more of his of his books have been turned into, been adapted for film yet, but he's also, written a really good, a really interesting TV series, called Occupied that came out quite a few years ago, but really sort of plays with the dystopian idea of of Russia taking over Norway and threatening Europe.
Jakob:So, there there is some premonition in there.
Andy:Yeah. Right. Right. Is that was that original or, like, written for the screen?
Jakob:That's original or written for for television. Yeah.
Andy:Interesting. Okay.
Jakob:He's also written children's, novel that we talked about, Astrid Lindgren with her master detective stories. He's also written a series of of famous children's stories and what have you. He's a very prolific writer.
Andy:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well and, you know, I guess that, you know, while this film may feel different from some of these detective stories we're following, obviously, it ties in with so many of these authors being so key to kinda, like, the development of this subgenre. Right?
Jakob:No. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Andy:Well, let's talk about our last film on this list, Gustav Mahler's 2018 film, The Guilty, another one with a recent American adaptation. Oscar Holm, a police officer demoted to emergency dispatcher duty, receives a distressing call from a kidnapped woman named Eben. Confined to the dispatch office, Oscar must use his limited resources to unravel the mystery and save Eben. As the night unfolds, he discovers the case is more complex than it initially appeared, forcing him to confront his own demons while navigating a tense high stakes situation. The guilty is a gripping single location thriller that engages the audience through clever storytelling and Jakob Sodergren's powerful performance as Oscar.
Andy:You know, as I just mentioned, we're doing another little, playing with some of the conventions within Nordic Noir, it's all set in one location. It's all set in this emergency dispatch office, which is I don't know. It's it feels wholly unique from all the ones that we've certainly of the ones we've discussed, but, I mean, are there others that kind of take this approach?
Jakob:No. Not in not in Scandinavian cinemas, Fazir. I mean, it's not the first one internationally to to do this or to do a part of this, but it is it is incredible to do a a crime story and something that could be a police procedural in this way that a genre that relies so much on chases and action and lots of characters interacting with each other, violence on screen, and what happened here. Everything is close-up images of the dispatcher and soundtrack that is, and the sound that we hear on on the phone, which is, voice actors who are all brilliant. And the the editing here must, is really important.
Jakob:Interestingly, this was also, I think it was a debut film for for for Mueller who directed this, a young filmmaker, fairly, recently out of the film school in in in Copenhagen. And and most of the people involved in making the film were from from from that year in the film school. And and they got some a little bit of funding from one of the big production companies, Nordisk, in in Scandinavia to to do sort of a you know, try something out. And this is what they come up with. So, of course, it's another example going back to Docma 95, the Tria and Winterburn, all those, where they make where they where they make sort of something good out of a necessity.
Jakob:Right? There's not a lot of money in Danish film production, so let's come up with some rules for making interesting stories in a in a low budget way. So the actors here, they they obviously didn't have to bring in their own costumes. And, there is artificial lightning, and there's editing, which, you didn't have that much of in the darkening of this. No.
Jakob:Right. Take it was filmed over only, like, 30 days, couple of weeks. And and really working with these long shots, that makes the it's very intense to follow the the main character going about his business in in this, in this call center for, 112, it's called in Denmark, I think.
Andy:Yeah. Right. And they and they find ways to amp up the tension in this simple location. Initially, he's in the room with the other callers, and it's late at night, so there's only a few people in there. But then he decides, you know, I I need to take this into the, I don't know what it is, but it's kinda like the private room for when they're having a an intense call or something.
Andy:He he shifts to that, which is a very dark room, and he can close the the blinds and everything. It allows for him to separate himself more from the other people, but, also, it just kind of creates more of this this tense, closed in sense for us. You know, it's just very minimalist and dark and confined. And I think that's very intense. Yeah.
Andy:Yeah. And then you're just you're watching for that little red light to pop up when the call comes in, you know. And But
Jakob:you also have the feeling that that he shouldn't really be doing this. Right? I mean, so there's he's he's not supposed to be in this, situation, and he's taking his job far too, well, he takes the job too far. We get this when he's calling the other dispatcher saying, well, you shouldn't be investigating. You just put the calls through.
Jakob:Yeah. So he's he's making something really personal, which is something we recognize from a lot of the crime stories. We have a a Wallander character. Right? And also with the famous cops who are also making things very personal all the time.
Jakob:Right? So they're not playing by the rules. They make things personal. They take them in directions where they they shouldn't take them. They take responsibility, and they interfere with the stories where where they shouldn't be interfering.
Jakob:And that's what happens, I think, when he goes into this room. He knows that he's not supposed to be doing this, but now he's doing his own investigation while he's kept away from actually being on the beat. He's been we learned that he's been taken away from police duty due to something that's, obviously gone wrong that is sort of part of the narrative as well, that he has done something in the past that he's being punished for. And he will the day after, if he behaves, he will he will come back into the job that he really wants to do. Yeah.
Andy:He's got this trial the the next day that he has to go, like, before a judge and, like, confront whatever crime that he and this that his partner had kind of or he had committed his partner had covered up is kind of the sense that we get. And I I love the way that the storytelling is it allows for that to slowly come out over the course of it. They were like, we don't get a big expository moment at the beginning where, you know, you're you know why you're here, blah blah blah. You know? Yeah.
Andy:It's just it it it unfolds very slowly, and we never really get a sense as to what actually happened. I think the American version works to make that so much more clear. But I like, it's it's something obviously troubling, and this this ties right into our very first conversation that we had about, Stellan Skarsgard's character in Insomnia. He's done something wrong, and he's sent somewhere else as a as a form of punishment. That's exactly what we're getting here as he's getting ready for this for this trial.
Jakob:Exactly. And and and, again, we find a story where I mean, this you're absolutely right. This is a slow unfolding of his own personal story, his own personal sense of of guilt. Or he's also trying to cover something up, just as Dylan Scasco's character was in Insomnia. And that slow unfolding that has to go hand in hand with the investigation of the crime or the solving of the ongoing and unfolding perceived crime, what is going on.
Jakob:Those two things, they have to go in sync together, and they become revealed in the end how one feeds into the other or how they are mirror images of each other. And and the sense the the title, the the guilty, is exactly playing with this kind of understanding or find out what do we mean by being guilty and and how does he understand guilt through the crime that he's investigating. So the crime that he's investigating is giving him a perspective on his own situation. Whether it becomes clearer is is is to be seen.
Andy:Well, it's it really is like, who is the title referring to? Right? Like, that's the other thing we're getting. Because it's such an interesting element, the story that he's investigating of this horrible crime where, you know, a child has been killed, and we're getting the sense that this woman has been kidnapped by her husband who, you know, killed this kid. She's calling him.
Andy:She from the car secretly trying to, like, talk in code so that he understands what's going on. And he starts honing in on this. And then later, everything shifts, and he has to rewire his entire perspective of everything that's happened. And quickly, because the cops are you know, everything is happening where the cops keep closing in more and more as they're pursuing them. And it's just, again, really boils down to how the sound design plays as we're getting these calls coming in over the course of this.
Andy:And it's it's a it's a tense, tense ride.
Jakob:It's so effective. It's surprisingly effective. And, you know, with with with these, compare I seem to remember the American version that the child doesn't actually die in the end. Then we have the the grimmer, Danish or Scandinavian version just like the dog in Insomnia.
Andy:Actually, the
Jakob:dog Right. Was actually killed on set, but, and here's the story. So they've been they've been tidied a bit.
Andy:Yeah. Yeah. Right. Exactly. But it
Jakob:is a really grim really grim unfolding story. And he's being led astray, by somebody, you know, if not cunning in this case, like in in Headhunters, then somebody who, has a mental mental illness and being led astray without being able to understand. And then this sort of is revealed to him through his interactions. But but his assumptions is so much, a part of the personality that we're seeing of this cop that he would immediately go to an understanding of who did this, as would the viewer, having seen all these stories about misogyny and and violence against women. We we immediately see this story
Andy:as we see. We've been watching all this Nordic Noir. We already know what to expect.
Jakob:And and we we are being fooled again, which is, you know, like, nice to see that Nordic Noir, is still surprising. You still have finding ways to tell a story that plays with conventions and and can surprise the the viewers. But, again, it is a story where where we see the the makeup of this policeman as not wholly, you know, he's not a he's not a really nice guy. Right? I mean, he's he's short-tempered.
Jakob:Something has happened to him. He's violent. He, he jumps to conclusions. He's taking charge on things he shouldn't take charge on, and he puts people in dangerous situations without understanding them fully. So in that sense, he's probably also a relatable character.
Jakob:Right? He's not he's not a he's not a super cop who can sort of read minds and, find traces. He's he's being exposed to the story as a sort just like a reader would.
Andy:Right. Well and as we've been discussing, like, he is somebody who, over the course of the story, is recognizing elements within himself, and, actually, we see make some changes as he ends up having that conversation later with his partner saying, you know what? Just don't lie for me. Just tell the truth. And we're getting a sense he's grown, and we don't know what the results are.
Andy:We it's it's unclear where what's gonna happen as he walks out the door at the end, but that at least we know that internally, like, he has, flipped a switch and things have changed.
Jakob:Yeah. That that that seems to be the case. Very different from Insomnia in that sense. There is there is the the possibility of of somebody coming to terms with their their own guilt and taking some sort of responsibility, though he is he is asking his partner not to testify, you know, to to just speak, what he wants and to to say the truth as as he sees it. But, he's also put his partner in a very, very difficult situation.
Andy:Right. So he's not gonna get out of that.
Jakob:No. So, Yeah. It's it's hard to see where it ends, but, you know, all good crime movies ends with, with some openings. And, a lot of the Nordic Noir stories, they they they end up with asking more questions and and keeping more, possibilities open than actually closing them down. They're quite untidy.
Jakob:And and and the big long, novel series are a a good example of the the Valander stories, the stories. They they do keep lots of doors open to possibilities, which I think increases, audience participation in interesting ways.
Andy:Yeah. Right. Absolutely. Well, we're going to, take a quick break. We'll be back in a minute, and then we will discuss more about Newark Noir's impact and its legacy.
Andy:We've talked through a bunch of films. We've talked about kind of, like, where Nordic Noir came from and everything. But, we've talked a little bit about its global recognition in cinema, international film, TV, and its and its popularity. But, like, beyond that, I mean, do you see it growing, like, with this cultural impact that it's been having within the Scandinavian countries, but also, like, how the rest of the world is, like, perceiving the Scandinavian countries?
Jakob:Yeah. Those are big questions. I think on on the one hand, you can see that the, in terms of the productions of, visual and audio visual storytelling in Scandinavia, that is a huge business now, and it's it's a business that is internationalized. So a lot of the the film and television productions that we're seeing over the last 10 years have become increasingly international because they are small markets in the Nordic countries, of course. They also have an internal market of subtitling and translation between them.
Jakob:But, I mean, the market compared to bigger European markets is is just minuscule. And and for telling these stories and the kind of production values that that the the ambition is now, you do need to have funding from abroad. And I think a lot of the Scandinavian narratives are funded by ZDF International or German producers or, from other countries. So coproduction is is really big. We've seen a lot of the Danish or Scandinavian actors, filmmakers getting work abroad, Ulek Thompson being one of the great ones, of course, to to go through many of these, the the whole film industry in Denmark and ending up in in James Bond movies, what have you.
Jakob:And we we talked about Stellan Skarskur. So so there there's a lot of internationalization going on in terms of the production culture in in Scandinavia. The in terms of the market for literature, it's it's been a a a massive change in international rights. So in in many cases, rights to translate novels, happens at the same time as they've been accepted for publication in their local markets, that much attention. So every time there's some hype around the Scandinavian time novel, of course, they come out on the big fairs and stuff, and then they're being brought up, for international rights in the hope to find another Stieg Larsson, which was, of course, famously only picked up by really small independent presses who made tons of money, because nobody believed in it.
Jakob:So so so yeah. It's it's become a a very sort of a globalized production company's productions we we see now, which is an interesting development. And, I think is producing high quality television shows, but still very much driven by a and now a much broader talent pool in Scandinavia of of actors and and writers. I mean, I think I think it's probably a bit of a game now to to watch a Scandinavian television series than recognize where you've seen these actors before because there's only so many of them. They're all they're all coming in in different television series and in films.
Jakob:And and what happened?
Andy:Yeah. There's definitely some repetition, which is a lot of repetition,
Jakob:which was just the is the nature of the game. And and, of course, you have to have really good actors to be able to to pull that off and and good directing and and good scripts. And and I and I do think there is a a really productive also crossover between the the different media. So you have, writers, novels becoming screenwriters, and screenwriters becoming novelists, also that. So, there there's a lot of, you know, dynamic going on.
Jakob:And then in terms of, adaptations and remakes, you know, you have mentioned that several times, that that still seems to be be true that that adaptation simply has become the name of the game, particularly in the American markets. And the the the the buying of a format is something you see. There's a lot of attention on that. So they're making, they're making money on it.
Andy:And, I mean, it's interesting that, like, there is even a growing trend. I don't know if it's because of Nordic Noir, but it seems to be of other sort of regional noir from around the world. Like, we're starting to see more Mediterranean noir and Asian noir and Celtic noir. And, like, we're starting to see these. I don't think any of them have reached the popularity, but I I just think it's interesting that it's it's created this influx of other places wanting to kind of have their own versions of it.
Andy:You know?
Jakob:It's really hard to remember a time before. I I said that flippantly, like, a time before Nordic Noir, but simply in a time before multi, you know, so multi European different kinds of languages were actually ending up on our screens. I mean, from from, perspective in the UK, there weren't really any subtitle drama on sort of the main television channels in the UK before The Killing and before the the running of of the Wallander Television series, which is, you know, only 2,009 around that time. Before then, you you couldn't find any. And the only reason why they ended up on on BBC 4 was because they were trying to find a new identity for themselves buying cheap content that they could sort of identify as sort of the high brow channel.
Jakob:And they found this cheap, television series called, Verblensten or The Killing, and they ran with it. And and since then, multiple TV channels have marketed themselves as running some international, European, or global, television. And, they all learned from each other, and I think we saw in the early 2000 tens, we saw a lot of Welsh, British, Scottish television series that clearly borrowed from the storytelling and and the stylistics of the Nordic Noir television series that were so popular and and sort of broadened them out and had way many more viewers than the the Nordic Noir series. So it became, it became a way to to create local stories in a recognizable international package. And I think that has made a huge difference.
Jakob:Now, of course, shortly after that, you have all the streaming channels. You have all the streaming, platforms, where these things, they live. And I a few weeks ago, I counted how many Nord ignore television series I could, at any point in time, find, on all the platforms. And I counted more than 30, which is just insane
Andy:that you
Jakob:can find as many. I mean, historical ones and new ones. But that is a huge difference in in the global market for, international film and TV, I think.
Andy:Well, it's interesting, and I I don't know if, you we can completely say that this is because of Nordic Noir and that shift, or it's just this nature of streaming services. But I am seeing more and more of different series in different languages on streaming services now than ever before. You know? And I I think that that could have been a shift from Nordic Noir way back then, and then just streaming services made that shift easier. But, you know, I don't think that, like, the finding something like Squid Games having the popularity that it did would have necessarily been an easy thing had we been, you know, in the nineties still.
Andy:Right?
Jakob:Absolutely. Absolutely. And it it has given really, I think and and many people, they watch television series as though they're actually tourism films. Right? You you you would experience something about another culture, which is, I I think, is fantastic.
Jakob:Right? Because they are local stories just like the Danish ones are. Now how do we how do we tell a Danish story the American way? No. That's what that's what sort of the production team said when they went to the NYPD Blue to see how they did American television
Andy:series. Right. Right.
Jakob:Now how do we how do we use that format to tell a local story? I mean, that that to me is sort of the the the global dimension of it. And you see all these different series of Mexican, naconovellas. We see all these different kinds of stories coming out of sort of different African productions, that really tell the stories of of local local understandings and local issues, but in a format that is transferable, that is that we can understand or we can at least try to to to understand because we know the language, you know, the visual language, the narrative language, but we still get a lot of sense of these being different places that have different issues that deal with, and they are connected in interesting ways.
Andy:Right. That's what's what makes it so interesting. Yeah. Are there any, like, criticisms that Nordic Noir faces? I you know, as far as I don't know.
Andy:I mean, we could argue oversaturation because there is so much of it, and perhaps we can fall into, like, the formula of this sorts of crime thriller. But, I mean, is there are there any other real issues?
Jakob:Oh, god. Yes.
Andy:Okay. Well, first
Jakob:of all, the term itself is obviously just completely meaningless, but, I beg to differ. But it it it probably has to be understood in certain ways. But, yes, there has been lots of criticism about misogyny, that representation of of violence against women. Is that just to get more people to to watch this this scene? So it's actually is it feeding into this kind of of of of narrative, genre, stereotypes instead of working through them?
Jakob:And and there will always be attention there, you know, from the spectacular spectacularization of of rape and all these things are are constantly things that one has to be vigilant about, I think, both when you're producing but also watching these television shows, the the amount of violence. I mean, we have we have talked about a few examples here where American versions have sort of tidied up a little bit the Yeah. Violence against animals and children. And, and and that is, of course, something that, that is being debated about the the the need for all this sort of visual violence and, as an important part of the stories. Why do we need it?
Jakob:And do we actually need to see it? And what does it do to us, as viewers, that we that we see all this this violence and that it has a particular that it's it's gendered as well? Is it telling true stories about our societies, or are they just rehashing sort of old narratives and stereotypes that are not really as obvious? And others would say, well, they are still issues that we need to work through. And then, of course, there has been quite a lot, of criticism about some stories about indigenous peoples such as the Sami, indigenous people in in in Greenland, Inuits there, and and and whether crime stories are simply exoticizing those peoples and their cultures in order to tell a story for a majority audience.
Jakob:So, that tension will always be there with with genre film. I think it's very difficult not to not to have that as part of the consideration when you are still thinking about these stories, I guess. I think I think that's how I mostly like to see them as trying to work through or present some of the issues there are in society. But, of course, there's always the the danger that, that that these stories become sort of extortifications or stereotyping.
Andy:Yeah. Inevitably, that that becomes a challenge with these types of stories. But I think I don't know. The way that I feel is, like, we're delving into these stories with a a lot of humanity also. Like, we're really looking at the cops, the or just, like, these characters' internal struggles that they're also going through.
Andy:And it I mean, yeah, we're not seeing that with all of the characters in the stories, but I do think that they're largely trying to paint, like, honest human portrayals in the characters. And that's something that that seems to ring true with all of these as I'm watching them.
Jakob:Yeah. I think they want to engage us. Right? They want to engage us as as viewers and as readers to for us to start thinking about, what what we're seeing and how we take sides or how we're being manipulated with or, who we empathize with and and whether things ring true to us or not. I mean, I think they are open it is an open genre, I think.
Jakob:Most people talk about crime fiction as a very closed genre that's that's, you know, always, you know, ending up with, with sort of hegemony reestablished and stuff. But I don't think that's the case with with Nordic Noir. I think it is the the the better of of the the narratives are are really open and and engaging audiences to take stance. But, of course, you can interpret them as as close as as some have interpreted Mankiewicz stories, for instance, as as sort of just rehashing the old racist stereotypes that, that are already there, and academics as well are are divided on on on issues about representation of that.
Andy:Yeah. Last question, kind of closing things up. What's what's the future of Nordic Noir? Like, where do you see it going from here?
Jakob:It's a good question. I think I've been I've been asked that many times over the last 10, 15 years, and I don't think I'm ever right. So I I should be I should be careful. I think I famously said that back in 2012 that this is gonna be over in in a few years. Oh.
Jakob:It's not so I'm I'm very careful. I did say, in the documentary going back in 2011 that, you know, the future is is turning away from local stories and more global stories and and also to more gore and and violence. I think I think Nordic Noir since then has has certainly delivered. I I do think, though, in the production cultures of of these nations that they have there is such a rich tradition of crossover between different filmmakers about television, different kinds of storytelling. And I think there has become, people are much less cautious about making genre films.
Jakob:It was one of the the dogma 95, dogmas, was you were not allowed to do a genre film.
Andy:You're not allowed to have guns on set.
Jakob:And those things have been, have, of course, changed. And Las von Trier famously made his own sort of horror film television series in the mid nineties that has been incredibly influential, with handheld cameras and what have you. So I I think we will see much more diverse stories, and I think we'll also see more stories delving into some of the more uncharted territories of of Scandinavian, if not Psyche, then at least geography. We have seen some interesting co productions around dealing with with issues around indigenous peoples in the in the north. We have also started seeing some examples of what we call eco crime.
Jakob:There are also stories dealing with colonialism in Greenland and and so on and so forth. So I think we will continue to see, genres that are that are dealing with more, sort of uncomfortable truth and uncomfortable pasts in Scandinavia. But I think we also will see a continuing internationalization of these formats. And and I'm I'm I'm looking forward to seeing really new and interesting global formats making their way into a Scandinavian a Scandinavian genre and to see what what happens when non American or non British genre formats becomes a part of a Scandinavian discourse, I think. So I think it's open, really.
Jakob:But I think it's I've been proved wrong. It's still going strong, and it's multiplying. It's diversifying. It's crossing over. So I think we can just hope for, you know, interesting stories, really, in whatever hybrid form they might come in the future.
Andy:Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Jacob, it's been a great conversation with you. Thank you thank you so much for joining me. You've got some books that you have written.
Andy:Do you wanna plug your books real quick?
Jakob:Well, I can send, your listeners to my book, which is, has a very complex title, Scandinavian crime fiction, so that should be easy
Andy:to remember,
Jakob:which really tries to look at the literary tradition mostly, but it does go into television. But it really looks at the interrelationship between Scandinavian crime fiction from Schur and Waller and all the way up till today, in light of developments in the welfare state and the sort of changing social, and political situation in Scandinavia. So if if your listeners have been interested in that, I will just, send them in that direction. And if your listeners are more interested in Scandinavian stuff more generally, we have produced a a free book that you can find from UCL Press. You just look at the introduction to Nordic Cultures.
Jakob:You'll find lots of articles there on all aspects of Nordic cultures and histories, and that's freely available.
Andy:Fantastic. And, you know, you should also just plug, you've got the Nordic Noir, book club that people can, learn more about. Right? Yeah.
Jakob:That has been a bit quiet, but that has been going on since, 2010. It's been a bit quiet lately, but, we had, somewhat wonderful events. So if if, listeners are ever in London, you should look us up. But, we have a blog with lots of interesting stories, lots of podcasts there from events going back to 2010 that, might be interesting to have a a relisten to. But, one of the things is we have a an early producer of the English version of the Wallander stories talking to us, as it grew, this, the story there.
Jakob:So there there there should be some content there for your listeners to engage with as well.
Andy:Fantastic. Well, we'll have links in the show notes to everybody. Check all of that out. Again, Jakob, thank you so much for being here and having this conversation with me today.
Jakob:A real pleasure, Andy. Thank you very much.
Andy:Next month, we'll embark on a wild and audacious journey through the world of remakeploitation. We'll explore how filmmakers from Turkey to Indonesia have boldly disregarded copyright laws to create their own unauthorized versions of popular films all in the hopes of cashing in on the success of the originals. From the bustling streets of Istanbul in Turkish Star Wars to the supernatural terrors of Bollywood's Nightmare on Elm Street, we'll discover the bizarre delights and surprising revelations that await in this fascinating corner of international cinema. Join us as we examine why this trend has emerged as a distinct film movement, particularly in certain parts of the world, and how these daring remakes challenge our understanding of genre, adaptation, and cultural appropriation. Thank you for joining us on CinemaScope part of the True Story FM Entertainment Podcast Network.
Andy:Music by Orcus and Blackbard. Find us in the entire Next Real family of film podcast at true story dot f m. Follow us on social media at the next reel, and please rate and review us if your podcast app allows. As we part ways, remember, your cinematic journey never ends. Stay curious.