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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
Subscribe now for weekly episodes that celebrate the unpredictable, the playful, and the deeply human side of making things. Join the mailing list at mischiefpod.com
Email anytime at podcast@ohhmaybe.com and follow us @mischiefpod
Mishu Hilmy(00:01)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life and that steady and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold,
risky moves. So if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com. Hello everyone, it's Misha and welcome to Mischief and Mastery. Today we are talking to Andrea Zile-Bisch, a Chicago-based director of film and theater. Her films have been screened from Texas to New York in over 20 film festivals.
and her commercial work has garnered thousands of views online, spanning both comedy and horror. Her films include the award-winning anti-ROM com, Last Date, and the ultra-colorful short, It's Your Night, Babe. As a writer, she's created three original sitcom pilots, including Needs Repair, a quarter-finalist in the Filmatic Comedy Screenplay Awards.
She's also a champion of Chicago's film scene, co-founding and moderating Script Night, a collaboration between IFA, that's the Independent Film Alliance, and Chicago Film Club, as well as has served as a juror on the Cine Youth Film Festival, which is part of the Chicago International Film Festival and Chicago Film Scene Screening Series. She proudly creates the Chicago-style indie filmmaking panel for Filmscape and is a frequent producer of surreal and strange projects for Cannes TV. So it was a fun talk.
Mishu Hilmy (01:46)
And Bish and I, chatted about what it means to direct and directing with generosity, why it really matters to direct generosity when it comes to working, especially with improvisers and actors, low budget crews, as well as when you're making things from scratch. So we talked about that and the myth of the auteur, the solitary loveliness of post-production and why Bish keeps coming back to pre-production and starting projects, even with five films in post. I'll add.
Bish's info in the show notes, you can check out her website at xylebish.com and follow her on Instagram at xylebish as well as check out her comedy, It's Your Night Babe, which will be screening around Chicago and the web series pilot LA LAWFIRM and the short horror film Alone in the Woods will be out later this year. So if you're into directing and all the things that come with it, comedy, laughs, writing, sit around.
and enjoy this chat.
Andrea Zile Bish (02:05)
Right now I'm in post-production for a lot of things. So I have two horror movies, one of them I directed, one of them I produced, and then I have two comedies that I directed plus another one that's coming out. So what do we got? We got, we're up to five. goodness. So really for me, I'm just looking for, I'm really desperate to like go into pre-production on something. So I've been more or less kind of seeing what material I can source, working with other.
writers and seeing what they have and trying to find pieces for my next project because I gotta be real with you. really post-production out of the three options least favorite.
Mishu Hilmy (03:21)
Really, really. It's my favorite. I don't like being on set. It's your favorite?
Yeah, I that. I mean, that's that's I mean, like you you are a great editor. Thanks. So I, I really like I can see how like you would really jive with that with your your thought process. But for me, I feel like it's the loneliest.
Yeah. So yeah, I think I tried to separate it between like lonely versus solitary. Like it's a solitary endeavor, but it's not lonely because it's like I am like in, know, in it, I am like with one with the creative experience. But yeah, I can see where it's like the decisions are just on you. So be like, does this this cut make sense? Am I a little bit too loud on this needle drop or whatever?
Yeah, and that's the thing is like, do like working with post production artists a lot, but it's weird to only be in the room with one other person. Which maybe is just my anxiety. I do. It's funny because like, I do feel like in pre production and in production, you are really working within a network of wonderful collaborators and creators. And that's sort of where I thrive, like very much from the, you know, it's very similar to improv. It's like, you want to be there, you want to be with your people, you want to be
Right, right.
Andrea Zile Bish (04:30)
taking their ideas, building off of them, rolling with yours. And so yeah, when it comes to post-production, it can be very challenging for me to sort of calm down and focus on the product.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, that makes sense, especially like an improvisational background, sort of the spirit of ensemble and like problem solving together and finding the, you know, the balance between going with an idea or be like, no, we got like one hour to do this thing. So thank you. And like that mode. But I know if you've ever experienced this sometimes in post-production, I'd be sitting with someone and just if they were like doing a sound mixer and edit, just like suddenly feel guilty of like, I'm just like telling this person to do something while in like a larger group setting, it doesn't feel as direct.
Yeah. Well, and I think it's interesting that you bring that up because I think that people respond differently to direct communication. And that's actually something that as a director, like my chief job on set is communication. So being able to understand what other people are going to respond to and the language that they work well with and being able to adapt to that. some people are going to want you to just say directly what's what's needed. Other people, there's a little bit more nuance to it.
Ida Lupino, the first female director is working within the Hollywood system, would always ask for help with things. She would ask people, she's like, can you help me with this? And in her context, a lot of that was because as a woman, she didn't want to come off as bossy or demanding, and she was working with a lot of old hats in different departments, and she wanted to make them feel important. And while I do kind of,
I do hold that within that context and she shouldn't have had to do that. do think that saying, you help me with this is a really wonderful thing to bring to film sets because very often I find, especially with younger directors, it's do as I say, where with older, more experienced directors, they really do rely on the talent of their team.
Mishu Hilmy (06:38)
Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. Yeah, you know, whether it's comfort level, confidence level, and communication style, there's also sort of the, you know, one could say the aesthetics or the patriarchy of what one thinks a set should look like. It's like, all right, there's an auteur who's, you know, making demands I don't buy into. I think that's kind of a very capitalistic and individualistic way of, you know, collaborating in a media.
Exactly. that's, I think that there is the myth of the auteur. Like these, know, Kubrick, Scorsese, Tarantino, these are very talented individuals, but they also with them have a team of talented individuals who have come up with them. And so they might be, let's say the CEO of the brand, but you know, there's so many people, so many craftsmen, so, so much talent supporting them that it's really, you know, it's a fallacy.
to put so much stock in them as a creative genius.
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I also like on the flip side is almost something I think about where I'm mindful of is like, maybe there's nothing inherently problematic with it, but like the the plethora of like, thank you is like an extreme politeness. like, hey, can you do it's like, I think a discomfort level of like anyone asking someone to do anything. It's like, hey, can you pick up that C stand? Thank you. Thank you so much. it's like every negotiation on set can sometimes be like a plethora of people feeling uncomfortable stepping on toes. So it's like
Why did I just say thank you 1800 times in the past few days?
Andrea Zile Bish (08:06)
And that's, mean, it's so true. And I do think that like, you know, filmmaking is a very tough industry. You want to be asked back and there is a level of courtesy that's expected, but it does get kind of funny because as you know, as a director working on some sets, people will be exceedingly polite to me. And I just feel like it's fine. Like, thank you. But I also value that you are working here and you are working on something that I am doing. And thank you. Which, uh.
can get a little, it can get a little effusive, but I think, you know, it is, it is interesting because when you sort of lock in and I've had the pleasure of locking in with some creatives and collaborators who we've just worked on a bunch of stuff together. So there is more of that relationship there to where it doesn't feel as kind of jittery first time working with this person. feels more sort of worn in and we can be a bit more level with each other.
Yeah, it's just think it's like in a shared collaborative space and maybe because of like the mechanics of how either costly or challenging it is. I think there's a funness of just like pure creativity, but it's just different. It's like a different energy because there is a like a larger mechanism that I know it's like a degree of sensitivity or maybe it's one thing to just like be hanging out with people painting stuff.
you hey, you hand me the brushes and you're not gonna thank you so much for handing the brushes. I really need the brushes right now. But yeah, yeah, I think as you get more comfortable with cruiser, like with one zone sort of voice on set, maybe it's like knowing the situations where you're like, I think I was a little bit too hot on that ask. The default of every ask being a few.
Yeah
Andrea Zile Bish (09:40.942)
Yeah, and I mean, definitely I have had moments where I have been to like, there's a lot going on in your head when you're directing. And some of it is, you know, you get to a level of stress that can sometimes come out in your voice to someone who you don't mean to. Like I, I am very lucky to have had very few experiences on set where I wanted to like, just pull someone aside and be like,
can you please just leave? That has not happened that often. But at the same time, I have had experiences where I have asked for something in a tone that came out of my mouth that I was surprised by and I've had to go back to them and say, I'm very sorry. You heard that tone. It wasn't about you. I think I just, don't know. did when I in theater, especially I worked with a lot of directors who were screamers and I have not had the pleasure of working with any in
Goodness, no.
film, but you know, just, you know, one gets their best work done and they're being yelled at.
Right. Yeah, yeah. It's I mean, it's just like, it's just all a sad expression of anxiety or fear, anger, frustration or impatience or whatever it is. So it's like, though I can intellectually understand it, it just sucks that like whatever, especially in the theater environments, like, come on, like this is where we're in a theater, unless it's, you know, even if it's Broadway or, you know, something like that to scream, I don't get it. I just don't get it.
Andrea Zile Bish (11:05.006)
And it's never Broadway. Like I did, I lived in New York for six months. worked. I mean, I didn't work on Broadway. I had friends who worked on Broadway. But by that point, it's like, if you're screaming, it's not screaming. It's, you know, behind doors talking with the producers over contracts and who you can, who you can let go. But at the same time, it's just like, I get it. I think, I think that as a director.
It is really difficult if you are on set or if you're in rehearsal and you you have to really accept that things are going to turn out differently than you expect and a lot of times that is the biggest battle that you will face because you know, we all fell in love with the vision.
for the show, for the film, we get into the work to produce that vision. And you cannot, you cannot, you cannot, not even Kubrick, not even Kubrick could be, everybody holds him up as like the perfectionist. He couldn't even do it. Nobody can produce what they have in their head. And because of that, you have to make concessions and compromises from which beautiful, beautiful choices can emerge. You can find actors giving a totally different bent to the scene than you originally intended.
But that if you cannot find it within yourself to like make those compromises or those changes, I mean, you can get very emotional about it. it's, you know, it's, it's, it's really hard. So, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a silly standard to hold up to like the vision of the mind. I get it. We're all creating something. So it's like, yes, you want to try to apply your aesthetic principles. But I think like it's almost a perfectionist standard that will never like why would I want to try to create something that's impossible? But like I think that the beauty of improvising is like I think it for me, at least I imagine maybe similar to you is just years of ensemble work and being on stage is helping to go. I had an idea at the start of scene. They hit me with something else.
Mishu Hilmy (13:05.634)
and then to immediately let go of whatever I had and be like, all right, I can move on. I think for me, sometimes similar on set where it's like, these are the goods the actor, the crew can bring today and whatever idea or time I had, I'm best just letting it go and move on.
Yeah, and I think that that is one of the beauties of improv is that, you know, you're creating from a well of ideas. That's what they teach you day one in Second City's writing class is basically just put it all out on the page and choose which are the best. And yeah, I mean, you like you really are doing the best that you can.
shot to shot, scene to scene. And you do have to be able to say, you know, this isn't working, let's try something completely different, or this isn't working, what if we just did this in a wide shot from 20 feet away? Yeah, it's amazing how you have to pivot. yeah, mean, comedy training especially, just for my background, I went to Second States Film School, and one of the things they were really, really good on teaching us is how to do a lot with nothing.
Nice. Yeah. So we got a lot of improv training, a lot of sketch comedy in addition to our film curriculum. And a lot of that was just working on our feet with improvisers and comedians and being able to come up, you know, one class, we had to shoot one film every week. So yeah, it was the best. I loved it. And yeah, we just had to just keep knocking them out.
was only with that sort of that comedy base of building off of a plethora of ideas and being able to pivot that we were able to do that.
Mishu Hilmy (14:41.326)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's like, a it's kind of enviably prolific, right, to have that that constraint or that context, you're like, this is your objective for the next few weeks or however long in this course. And then to have an ensemble that's like, just fine not getting stuck in like, it's got to the perfect narrative short films. No, we got it. We got an idea. It's going to be a minute and a half. It's going to be seven minutes or whatever. And we're going to, you know, sort of outline it out and riff on it. I think that's, you know, a real good practice rather than getting stuck in, you know, perfect.
perfectly producible works.
Yeah, and especially like one of my great tricks and recommendation for anyone who's like trying to create a film and doesn't have a big budget is created around the strength of your performers. If you have friends who, you you see that all the time with like, you know, different filmmakers who beat like Wes Anderson, Kevin Smith. Like you see these filmmakers who just cast the people around them and they wrote roles for them that they knew that they'd be perfect in. And with, you know, with doing that, you are guaranteeing
great performances. If you know these people, if you write specifically for them, you're already halfway there.
Right. Yeah. And like I think, you know, that helps to least give me some degree of understanding, because you mentioned, you know, you're like five things in or near post production and you're like, I'm just for pre production. So I'm curious, like, where where is this ambition come from or the desire to like not rest on laurels? It's like five things in post within a year or however long those have been in development. It's like pretty substantial. And you're like, still, I need more. I need I need to put something up on its feet. Yeah.
Andrea Zile Bish (16:12.716)
It feels weird not to have anything. Well, and I say not to have anything. I do have a couple of scripts that like are very, very early pre-production, but nothing where it's like, let's find a location, let's cast it, let's get the band back together. Put on the best damn talent show this town's ever seen. But no, I think, I mean, I just always have, I think the ADHD is a huge contributor.
Yeah, yeah.
but yeah, I mean, this has just been me. This has always been me. have, you know, I've ever since I was a little kid, I would have my friends over and I just take my, my film camera into the backyard and be like, let's shoot a movie. Let's, let's do, let's put on a play. Let's do something. And just, I think for me, there's a real sense of community on set that I really long for when I'm not within that pre-production or production mode. there's a great movie, day for night, that really sort of encapsulates that.
But yeah, and then just also like, man, yeah, I just keep I keep coming up with stories. I keep coming up with scripts. I keep coming up with things that I want to see in the world. And I keep you know, it's like I have had the pleasure of serving on two film juries this year. And you just sit back and you watch hours and hours of short films and you can't do that without being like, could I could do. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. I don't know, man. I'm still waiting for that burnout to kick in. But until it does, here we are.
Great. Yeah, think there's something I've sat and, you know, juried for a couple of film festivals and it's there's something exciting about seeing just the quality variation and what the festivals do end up going with and go like, I'm surprised they went with that one. But yeah, it's it's like I feel inspired when I see things that I don't understand and they don't make sense to me. And it's like, yeah, just do it. Just it doesn't need to be. doesn't need to be good. It doesn't make sense. You could just make whatever you want.
Andrea Zile Bish (17:56.768)
It just needs to exist. mean, you know, at the end of the day, if it exists, that's a mirror. Every film is a miracle, as they say on that podcast. I'm totally blanking on.
Yeah, I don't know about that. I Miracle is a bit of a stretch for me. think it's a bit self aggrandizing and sort of, know, every surgery is a miracle. But every, you know, film, it's just, you know, it's project management. That's my opinion. That's what filmmaking is. It's project management for creative nerds.
Wow spoken like a true
There's my hat take for the day.
No, no, you see, have to disagree with you there. I see the miracle in it because I see from you're you're bringing something into reality, which I know and I know you're a little bit of a, you know, you're you're down to earth in a way that I might be flying out to space. the fact that like you could have like some creative vision and then actually make a physical product out of it. Mind blowing, amazing every time it happens, even if it's shit, even if it's the worst film, I have watched many bad films and
Andrea Zile Bish (19:00.104)
liked things about them or liked the film. Sometimes bad films are... I watched The Room again recently.
Oh yeah, It's pretty vibrant. It's got a vibrancy. Yeah. I think it's probably just semantics. So like, I think there is a grace and a mystery and a beauty and sort of expression and creating. And at the same time, I try to be grounded with the act is we're getting people to show up at a location. There's nothing miraculous about that. There's nothing miraculous about showing up here at six in the morning and leaving at, know, 10 PM.
What ends up happening, the byproduct of that collaboration can potentially be miraculous or the process, you know, the flow and the connection can be beautiful. But I think I just struggle. Maybe I'm bit too literal with miracle. mean, I've never seen anyone walk on water on set, but, know, one of these days.
and they're a great practical effect that can achieve that. But yeah, I don't know, but even then, just the fact, I'm sorry, this is going to get very philosophical. at the same time, as somebody who in my younger years, I felt very isolated and sort of away from that creative community to then...
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.
Andrea Zile Bish (20:08.27)
come into that and have friends that are willing to show up for me at 6 a.m. That's a miracle for me, at least, personally. But yeah, mean, think there is, like, listen, I'm not saying it's, I think divinity might be in question here, and maybe I should state divinity is not what I'm claiming. But at the same time, I think remarkable might be a better word.
Remarkable. You can keep whatever word you want. It's all good.
I think it's remarkable that, know, especially in Chicago, there is such a community spirit here to really come out and support these films, whether that means being on set, whether that means showing up for screenings. There's a wonderful community atmosphere in Chicago that really is, I think, one of the city's greatest strengths.
I mean, I think there is like a beauty and a warmth and even something that is awe-inspiring where you can be on set and you get goosebumps and you don't quite know why. I don't want to take away the mystery. I would say divinity can be found if your channels are open to it. So when it comes to the writing, like some of these projects that I'm aware of, you didn't write it. For these ones that are in pre-production or you're
aspiration to into pre-production. What's your approach when it comes to, now I'm going to be the person who wrote this or actually I'm going to reach out to my collaborators or find a stranger or a friend or someone who also writes. What's your decision making? Where's your head at when it comes to, I'm the one who wrote this or I'm going to find someone who wrote something.
Andrea Zile Bish (21:39.264)
So typically people reach out to me about, you know, things that they wrote. Occasionally I have reached out to other people because I'm like, wow, I really love this. And like, would like to make this happen, which has mixed results. think, you know, at the end of the day, if you approach people and you're like, really like your script, can be, especially if they don't really know you, it can be a little like off putting it's like, well, the script is my baby. And it's like, I know, but I would like it to be my baby as well.
Mm-hmm.
But at the end of the day, even if they have the script somewhere else or if they're not interested, still, then I have been able to connect with people and it's less about the script and it's more about forming those relationships that we end up working together over time. And for stuff that I, so it's either that or I do occasionally have people who have their own scripts who think I might be a fit as a director and I really love that. So two things right now.
that are in the works, we're sort of working with two separate writers. But then for my own stuff, it's so easy, because I just won't shut up about it. If I have an idea, I will tell everyone in my life and I'll sort of, it's really a bad trick, because you really shouldn't do that. You should just sit down and write it. But I will just keep pitching my idea until I have it.
Thank
Andrea Zile Bish (22:58.85)
through the pitching. Like I will just on the spot keep adding things when people ask and then I will eventually just have so much material through that.
Yeah, that process works for you. That's great.
Yeah, and mostly, I mean, I feel like I'm not a very inspired writer. Most of the stuff does come from, you know, there's like something of truth in my own life that then gets extrapolated. like my thesis film was about a woman who gets engaged and then realizes she has to divorce her husband. And that came from I was separated from my husband from two years. And there's a point where all the feelings of the relationship have gone and you just have to show up at the Cook County Courthouse. And it's like,
Well, no one wants to do that on the Tuesday morning. So we were we were literally procrastinating on getting divorced. Also lawyers who can afford them. We wanted to do it ourselves. And then, know, but the other one that I'm working on right now is about a woman who has a baby tooth and it needs to be removed. And she's worried that she'll have to finally grow up and like get car insurance and pay taxes.
interesting. Yeah, like, because like, me, at first, like, is this a body horn is or no, it's kind of a fantastic comedy. yeah.
Andrea Zile Bish (24:13.582)
That's
yeah, she runs out of the dentist's office and into the woods where she finds a group of people who also don't want to inside.
Is this going to be a practical makeup?
No, some of them just can't stop talking about their high school football championship. So there's many layers of not being able to grow up. Yeah, mean, so that is inspired by the fact that I still have a baby, which is kind of a joke right now. It's kind of like a party little anecdote right now.
Yeah, I thought it would be funny to like kind of spin off in a wacky world where it kind of means that you have to grow up. because, know, man, I'm still struggling as an adult. I don't think any I don't think I don't think that that's something like that has gotten easier.
Mishu Hilmy (25:00.672)
No, it's like every year it's like, this is is new new thing. We got to contend with it.
back pain, man. Why in house? Right. Yeah.
How do you cross the threshold of committing to an idea when it comes to writing? What makes you make that decision to go, this is something I've written and I think I might commit to it and move it toward development, move it toward pre-production. Like, is it more intuitive for you or what's generally been your approach?
You know it's interesting because I occasionally be intuitive, but I really do rely a lot on other people before making that leap to production. Because every script I write is brilliant, you know? It's a miracle here on earth until somebody else reads it and gives me very constructive criticism. And I think you need that because obviously the first draft feels wonderful, is terrible. Yes. And...
So I tend to show my scripts to a lot of people. I tend to have them read. I really need to hear them out loud because I need to know what people are responding to. And I've done, I did a film recently called It's Your Night, Babe, and it worked out, but I didn't do that sort of heavy vetting process beforehand. And I think it would have
Andrea Zile Bish (26:22.818)
benefited from that because that's just how all other comedy works. Like, you know, sketch comedy plays, like, like these are things that like go through rounds and rounds of like having that audience interaction. So, you know, what jokes are hitting, what jokes are not hitting. And so if you're, if you're making comedic short film, I really just really recommend having some table readings for it because otherwise.
you're not going to you're you're going to get into editing and you're going to be like, wow, this this didn't land the way I thought.
It's so humbling to hear the words out loud and go like, this is garb, like it's garbled. the physical after one's mouth moving, they just can't say this. It's whatever. So like not like hearing that over and over goes like, all right, I'm going to strike that line and rewrite it. And yeah, it's it's just great, especially for comedy, just to hear it over and over how to how to clean it up or feel the energy shift where like, we're actually de-heightening now. You can sense the energy drops and it's like we're just sort of repeating or circling the same motif.
and not actually progressing or going beyond.
Yeah, and that's the same thing for like, there was one of my sketches that I couldn't figure out because it was so great to me and I couldn't figure out why it wasn't working. And then when I heard it this last time, I realized it's the improv thing of blocking, like theatrical blocking. A question, a challenge kept being presented to one of the actors and they kept denying it. And I'm like, this is not.
Andrea Zile Bish (27:54.156)
going anywhere, it's getting pedantic. And yeah, so like it took me, I mean, from the time I wrote that sketch to like just recently, that was like a two year period of having it and being like, I don't know why it's not working. And sometimes you just need to keep listening to stuff because you really, that's the one thing, that's the most challenging thing for creators. Like you're not gonna be able to see it as other people see it.
maddening.
Yeah. It really is like I like I used to do a lot of improvising and I'd be like the only shows I want to improvise in are the ones I direct and it's like but I can't direct I can't improvise in something I direct so it's yeah yeah it's it's I don't know kind of humbling to never be able to have a maybe a I know I say like a first time experience or an objective experience with something you make maybe if like after 20 years go by you forget about it and you can see it somewhat freshly but there's still the residue of like knowing that you made it.
Yeah, and just, it's funny because I, yesterday, was at the cultural center watching my thesis film as part of Room 19 and Film Girls Brunch. They were doing a programming block. Yeah, it was, it was interesting because I haven't seen my thesis film since August? And even now, I mean, you know, I thesis film, it came out in like, what, 22, 23? Like, it's, it's a little old at this point, but it-
was interesting because one of the things that I noticed was this time around, was like, this is really lacking a background score, which was a note that I had gotten from a couple different people being like, you know what? This could really you. And I had just, I had sort of said, no, it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. People get it. It's fine. So yeah, it's like, my goodness. But at the same time, even though I now agree with that note and I totally see where they were right about that, it was also like it looked.
Andrea Zile Bish (29:50.502)
gorgeous and I'm like well that's that's a nice little boost this looks amazing especially on this big screen so I think it goes both ways there are good things that you see when you've let something sit for a while and there's also some stuff that you wish there's always gonna be something you wish you did different.
Yeah, and I think this is like just lessons to go like for me, if I were in a situation or similar situation like, oh, yeah, maybe I was a bit too stringent when it came to the commitment of like, no, this is not going to have a score or whatever sort of the aesthetic decision of the time is because yes, sometimes there's a bit of buoyancy or a bit of bouncer kinetic energy can come from a well applied score. Yeah, getting that space does help, I think, with growth, because I don't think there's anything I watch of mine.
that I don't appreciate. I enjoy this and I'm pretty proud of what I create. yeah, but it's just to learn from it.
Yeah, and you should be. And I think it's good to have pride for what you did. And I think it's great to hold it in context of, you know, it's like I shot that film in a day and a half. And I look at it now and I'm like, how? How did we do that? But we didn't know any better. And so we did it. And it worked out. mean, sometimes you have, you know, those magical things that just work. But at the same time, you know, I do wish I think, you know, part of the
the score and the lack thereof was because I didn't like post-production. I just wanted to get it out. I'm like, I'm done, I'm done. We're not doing anything else. And I do think like, you know, it's the same with credits. Like even after watching a bunch of short films, can really tell like stylized credits for me are like some, this is this was crafted. This is a work that somebody cared about. And you know, you watch so many films or people just like do the default credit roll at the end with like even the default.
Andrea Zile Bish (31:41.676)
the default font and I think you'll see that if we're lucky. I think it's called Minion. no, can't be that.
I see skinny sans serif something like that.
Very much so. it's like, yes, this is what Adobe Premiere puts as your font if you haven't selected one. And I've done that a bunch. And it's funny because it's like the last thing that you usually do. But also if you do take the time to think about how to creatively do a credit scene, it can really add a layer to your movie that makes it more interesting, makes it look more well-crafted.
Yeah, it's all designed and intentioned at the end of the day because it's like it's like this similar when I see things like they didn't choose an aspect ratio. It's the same energy of like you didn't think like I'm like I'm the same when it comes to credits. I did the credits for my last short film and it was like the least enjoyable experience of the whole thing of like making sure all the names are pasted spelled correctly and like getting the color to just vibe just right and the right font and like I don't know is this still three seconds of pop too much but
Yeah, it's the same.
Andrea Zile Bish (32:47.126)
Yeah, and it is. mean, it's, it's, think at the end of the day, one of the things that you hear a lot about directors is it's all about choices. You're just, you're just making choices throughout the entire project. Right. And it is that at the end, like you're right, like the, the credits and the music and the, even the poppiness of it, your poppiness.
Yeah, yeah, I think it's like that job of like, you know, making decisions and having an opinion. I think that's probably what separates people from directing who don't want to direct is like, maybe a comfort of like, I have an opinion on this, it might not be the most quality opinion, but you have scores of them and they end up making the thing you make.
Yeah, exactly. And I think that that's, you know, it is interesting because having a real vision for the film is another thing that I think really makes or breaks a film. It's surprising to me how when people are going to direct something, a lot of times they don't consider who they're making it for. And why they're making it. There was a great dramaturgy professor at my college who had
the entire, this biggest thing was why this play now? Why, why this art, why this art right now? Why is it important to this very moment in human history? And if you can, like you can tell when you're watching a film and that question was not asked, the work is.
Far, the work is far less specific. The opinions are vague. You know, all those choices that we were talking about, it's like they're coming from no motivation. Like it is really important to consider.
Mishu Hilmy (34:21.836)
Yeah, I think but that's I think the integrity of your point of view as someone who creates something because I don't think it's necessary to project that degree of integrity because people are going to make things for whatever reasons, right? They want to make money. They want a job. They want the ego validation. But I do share the sentiment that like having a degree of thoughtfulness as to like who or what you're serving will probably make for more, you know, personal or original piece rather than like you're just things that becomes like a copy of a copy. You're just like making something to kind of, I don't know.
Make it but that's also okay. I don't know who that but I would agree
You should make to make, that's great. And I think that a lot of film schoolwork is making to make, which is fabulous. You need to learn how to use the techniques and the tools at your disposal in order to then craft films. And I think it's when you get to that level of knowing how to make a film and wanting to really then make a film that sort of has a perspective on it or has something to say.
that has some weight and value to it. That's when you need to be asking those questions because at the end of the day, it's a lot of time and resources. We could be doing so much else with that time. So why are you making a film?
Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (35:40.098)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I do think it's at the end of the I just keep meditating on everything is just passing time. So for you is like the reason, the purpose, like that helps motivate you or feel kind of connected or not remorseful that you just spent like, you know, eight months on a project about, you know, nonsense.
yeah, even in the stupidest stuff. Like even the baby tooth one that I was talking about where she runs away and she wants to go live in the woods with the other people pretending not to be adults. The end of that is her roommates coming to her and saying, know, adulting sucks. We all have to do it. But the best thing about it is none of us have to do it alone. You know, we're here to help you. And I think a lot of what's going on, not to make my little short about a baby tooth.
have large political implications. I'm not saying it's a miracle. Ha ha, call that. But I think right now, that's what I need to hear and that's what I want to say. I want to say to people that we're not alone, we're together. If you, because so many people I know, you'll hear that they're hurting after. Because it seems like a weakness or a vulnerability to open up to other people in the moment when you need it. And I struggle with that.
and I know others do, and I think that we need to try to get the message out there that we can support each other.
Totally. Yeah, I think it's such a, you know, giving your caring sentiment, especially to be mindful of that question. Like, well, why am I making this? And the spirit of that being, you know, as someone who sits in the audience can create that space or that moment to reflect of like, yeah, I have been holding these things in. I don't need to do that. And this sounds like it's something, you know, valuable to you as someone who wants to express something or create an experience for people.
Andrea Zile Bish (37:26.83)
And you know, you can do it in a silly way. Like there's many different vehicles to do it. I think oftentimes the silly way is the one that gets me because I am such a... I'm a little cynic. So something can be surprisingly sentimental. It usually has a better time of reaching me. And yeah, and I think that that's, you know, that's at the end of the day, using my work to connect people, even the horror. mean, even the horror film that I'm...
Producing is about you know someone who's in a lot of pain But yeah, so I I really do want to connect with other collaborators and other artists But just also use my work as a vehicle for connection through other people Me having a point. yeah
Like how's your ba-
Yeah, it's lovely. It's lovely. I think it's interesting because there's so many motivators in doing whatever we end up doing, but at least in this moment, it sounds like the value of the impact you have with people who receive it. And I imagine also you enjoy just the process itself. It doesn't sound like you're purely motivated by just need to get this out there and sit with strangers and see how they receive it. I imagine there's also a component where you genuinely enjoy the building of the thing.
Oh, I love it. And you really do have to. I, for a long time, was very focused on the outcome of the thing. it's a miserable way to be because you cannot guarantee the outcome of the thing. What you can guarantee is the, you know, it's like, it's focusing on the craft of the thing. I'm focusing on the joy within that. And it's like, I can enjoy, if I enjoy this while I'm making this, it doesn't matter where it goes.
Mishu Hilmy (39:06.382)
Right.
There's so many things that will just fail and it sucks. And it's like, well, that was disappointing, but you know what? I enjoyed the crafting of the thing and I'm just going to keep doing that.
Yeah, agreed. Yeah, think it's also like, you know, the semantics of like a failure is a failure if I don't redefine it or recontextualize it. Like that's probably the greatest failure. So like for me, I don't think I've ever, ever had a failure. That's that's where my head's at.
That's great. I've had things that have performed. It's like stocks. I've had a disappointing performance, but it's not a failure. Yeah.
Yeah, I did finish reading a few months ago Arthur Devaney's Hollywood Economics. It was published in 2003 and he does make comparison that Hollywood is actually more like a stock market where it's like there's no, it's impossible to determine future potential because demand doesn't exist until the thing exists. like there's no such thing as a sure thing, which is like reinforcing William Goldman's, nobody knows anything. So that's been like alleviating to go, all right, there's nothing, I will never know. I could put my blood, sweat and tears into this thing.
Mishu Hilmy (40:10.818)
But once it exists, there's no physical way of knowing if people want it or like it or enjoy it. And to just remove that component from the sort of expectations has been nice.
That's such a wonderful point too, because yeah, there's really... I'm always surprised when people laugh at my films. I'm always surprised. then, you know, we've all had that experience of being in a theater watching a film, something comes on, we laugh out loud and no one else is laughing. Like, you just don't know. And I think the truest that you can be to your voice as an artist, which I sound like one of the people that came to talk to me at the arts high school I went to.
Like you cannot give like artistic advice without sounding like you're wearing a bunch of beads and you know like a like a large flowy scarf but being but like who else's artistic voice am I gonna be true to? Nobody knows anything. I love Goldman and yeah and it's and it's it's it's so it's so pertinent. It's like if you had the choice you could fail as someone else you could fail as yourself like I would rather just be missing.
Yeah, agreed. it's, you know, I think it's a miserable state to like bend over backwards to serve a style that you don't attach with. Like then just just have a corporate job. Because that to me is like no different than like serving a boss at a nine to five. I think that'd be even easier. So like, all right. yeah. Like I just might as well try and do what I like regardless. And then it's also the integrity of knowing like, OK, if there isn't a group of people right now who are interested in it, then it's how do I be?
ethical and responsible of how I finance it or support it. Like, you know, I'm sure you've talked to people around the networking scenes where they're talking about like multi-million dollar budgets. I'm like, wow, what? Like, what? are you talking about?
Andrea Zile Bish (41:55.346)
Amazing. I am so glad that some people have money. But that's the thing. I mean, it's funny because, yeah, you know, I know this is going to sound absolutely horrid, but you really have to look at how many artists gain popularity after their death. And I always try to keep that in mind. And I'm like, it's like, it doesn't make any sense, but at the same time, it's kind of comforting. It's like, I don't know. I'm just trying.
and yeah, and it sucks because it's like, well, then I have to pay for it or I have to make sure I die. We are going to borrow, bag and steal. And you know, have thankfully been able to get resources for a couple of my projects, which is always great. But at the end of the day, when you're working outside of the studio system and sort of the large production companies, because Hey, Chicago is not LA yet. You do have to be creative, but also within that creative.
there's a lot of freedom. So I love to look at the timetables for some films. there are some films that were in pre-production or development for years and years and years. And just, when you have a lot of moving parts, you kind of have to do that. Like Lord of the Rings was in pre-production for two years because I learned the other day they had 700 pieces of custom pottery for that film. And it's like, yeah, you need time to fire that, don't you?
But at the same time, it's like, my goodness, I love the Lord of the Rings. I'm not sure I would have been, I would have been very overwhelmed on that. I think Peter Jackson is very overwhelmed on that project, but still it's like, I'm working on a different timetable. I'm working on a shorter timetable. I'm making smaller projects, but that doesn't mean that like I'm enjoying it any less.
Yeah, yeah, it's I think it's like being grateful for where you're at. And that's where the integrity and ethics come in. If I'm yearning for something that doesn't exist for my current sort of skill or project, then I'm not being present to what I'm doing right now rather than like, this this is like an interesting little artsy or small project. Maybe I shouldn't be expecting one hundred thousand dollars for it. Maybe it's, you know, borrow, beg, steal and
Mishu Hilmy (44:06.626)
be responsible and respectful with the folks' times and the resources you have available.
Yeah, also money just goes. Money just goes on films. Like you can, you can spend, my gosh, you can spend so much money on so little. It is amazing. But at the same time, the flip side is true, which is you can do so much with so little.
Yeah, the freedom of the constraints. really is. It really is. I remember the AFI maybe 10 years ago released these two tomes. I think they were both like four to 600 page tomes of interviews with directors from the studio system. The first time was I think the great directors and different studio system directors and crew people and then one more contemporary. There's like 90 % of the interviews were just people talking about money. Like, do I get the money? How do I get the money for this thing? It's like, it's all about.
how hard it is to, or not how hard, but like how it's so based on resources.
Yeah. And I think that now in my career, it's the best time because I haven't had a lot of money. So it's like, you know, it's like exponential growth. One of the short films I produced was the most expensive thing I've ever produced at $10,000. And that was like 10 times the budget of my first, 10 times the budget of my first film, a hundred times the budget of my first film. And so, you know, it's funny because it's like, but now it's like, well, I've produced that.
Andrea Zile Bish (45:29.998)
You know, what if my next film I want to do $20,000 and then it becomes a race for that and you just keep growing and growing and growing. And I think it gets harder and harder the more that you need. But yeah, it's just, it's, it's so, it's, it's maddening.
Right. Well, it's that thing of wanting to grow and challenge, right? That's probably why I stopped doing theater, because I would be performing for several hundred people and just not feel nervous. And I'm like, wow, this is a sign that something's not happening. So similarly, it's like the organic growth of I succeeded or I felt confident and comfortable in this challenge of this economic constraint or this budget tier and just the human nature of like, can I push it a little bit more?
But I would also hope that I, but yeah, we like our preferences will organically change. I imagine there's a preference to challenge and grow as well as go like, yeah, I've done enough two day shoots with a six person crew that I don't feel like I need to do that as much or whatsoever anymore.
Yeah. And that's the thing too, because it's like for me, I've done films as, you know, basically functioning as nonprofits, like donations and grants. I want to do a film that functions as a business. want to do investments. To do investments, you have to have a plan to pay out. What's my plan to pay out? So like, I like it in the sense that there's always like new challenges. But yeah, so like that's kind of where I'm positioning myself now is to think, you know, if I am doing a film that's 20, $25,000, can I find a way?
to make that money back and can I go to investors with that plan to make it back and say, listen, obviously there's risk, but I'm not just asking you for a donation. I'm presenting you with a business plan. So yeah, I think for me at least that's been a challenge with short films, especially for a six figure budget. think a reasonable estimation for distribution would be closer to three or four, four being lucky.
Andrea Zile Bish (47:18.59)
So, you if that's, it's kind of, you kind of get into this paradox as a filmmaker where you say, well, I do want to get investment on a film. Short films don't really have a strategy for sale. Then all of a sudden you're thinking, should I do a feature? Should I be setting my sights on something even bigger? And then you realize as you're saying this, that you have no experience in this and you should probably go talk to people who do.
Right. I think that's also like discounting, right? think like, yeah, features, you can, it's analogous skills, right? If you've done a four day shoot or a six day shoot for shorts or two day shoot, like over X number of years, there's enough analogous skills, share the level of like exhaustion and endurance is what's being tested. But that's where it's like, you you, you're smart. You'll crew up with a strong UPM.
and a strong production team, so it's not stressful. I believe you could make a feature tomorrow if you wanted to and had the opportunity.
I think, thank you. I agree with you. I think I can make a feature tomorrow. I don't know how I'm paying for that feature. But we'll find out. And yeah, and to that point, like that's something too where I'm in a great position now in my career where I have people that I love to work with. I have resources that I did not have three years ago. So I can see if.
a feature in my sites and I can, said, you know, if I have the money, if I have the script, I could do this. And so now, you know, part of me is thinking low versus script.
Mishu Hilmy (48:48.5)
Yeah, yeah. Well, that's exciting. Cool. I think we're nearing time. with that, like what's been keeping you at least motivated or optimistic or engaged given how uncertain this industry is, given that there are no guarantees. It's not even a risk because it's pure uncertainty. There's no calculations to be made. It's kind of impossible to like make a determination. So like what keeps you either hopeful, motivated, connected?
I gotta do it. got like I like I remember so many teachers through I went to a performing arts high school and I went to school I went to college for theater haha I thought that would pay back. yeah But all through it one piece of advice that I kept getting was if you can do anything else do it and I never understood it until like
now because I really, I really can't. Like I will, I will keep doing this. I will keep creating even if I just have to shoot into my apartment, even if I have to shoot it with my phone. I love the doing of the thing. And that's, that's it. I can't, I can't stop. If I could, I would have so much more time and money.
But yeah, I mean, that's sort of what's motivating me right now. And then also showing up for community, you know, there's so many wonderful people here in Chicago. It's really become a wonderful group of friends. and I, you know, one level, sometimes you just want to hang out with your friends.
Yeah, I think that's what it's also challenging with like, I'm grateful because that was one thing I missed with exiting the theater community and going like, how can I find that that sense of place and you know, after a rehearsal or a show, you'd go to a nearby bar or whatever, just like hang out with this tight knit group and filmmaking to find those through other institutional structures or just casual, casual like friend networks has been delightful. I think that's also challenging is like the community has a lot of like passionate, ambitious people.
Mishu Hilmy (50:41.07)
And like, it's hard to find time. I want to hang out with directors all the time, but they're also on set, and I'm on set.
And all upset. And that's the thing too, is that it can be kind of hard, especially director to director. feel like we don't, directors don't really hang out that often. I think we respect each other, but like, I find that like when I'm hanging out with another director, like we're, we both tend to be pretty cerebral. And so it's like, I think that's why like directors don't tend to hang out with each other, but they love hanging out with like actors and like creatives and other people.
Right, right.
Andrea Zile Bish (51:17.378)
Yeah, you're right. mean, that community is such a is such a big draw. Also, once again, day for night. feel like that film has a lot to say about those relationships.
Well yeah, this was a lovely conversation, Bish, and absolute delight.
Mishu Hilmy (51:41.602)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed the show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief motivation. Already here it is for you, one minute scene builder.
Set a timer for one minute and write or describe or talk into a voice memo on your phone. The first shot of a scene you haven't yet written, made. No dialogue, just visual, describe it. That's it. Give yourself one minute to describe the first shot. And that's enough. And see where you can go from there. But all I'm asking is just do that one minute timer and muse dream up of a shot, not even a scene, just one shot.
of a scene that you might write, create, direct, produce, what have you. So dream it up, give yourself one minute, and that's enough. All righty, have a great rest of your day.