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A faith-forward podcast for people who love Jesus but also love being honest about how weird and wonderful life can be. Hosts Kerrye and Jill tell stories about the Bible, talk about their faith, and dig into what it looks like to follow God through the ordinary chaos of everyday, imperfect life. Real conversations. Real stories. No pretending to have it all together. Pull up a chair, turn the page, and let's go.
Welcome to Chapter and Verse, where people
come on and tell their real stories,
faith, failure, redemption, and the
occasional, "Lord, what are you doing?"
moment.
Some inspiring, some messy, and some that
probably should have come with a warning
label, because through every chapter
of every story, God is still writing.
And He's not afraid of a little chaos.
This is Jill.
And Kerrye.
Let's turn the page.
Okay.
Well, we're here today with
our friend Suzy Turnbow.
We're so excited to have you here.
Oh.
Yay, Suzy.
Suzy.
Thank you for having me.
Oh, you're welcome.
We are honored that you're here today, so.
Well, I am honored that I am here
and able to share some things
that the Lord has done in my life,
and I'm nervous, but I'm okay.
Yeah.
Good.
Well, tell us just a little bit
about your life and yourself andâ¦
Well, um, I wanted to talk about
mother-daughter relationships and- Okay
um, the empty nest and- Mm-hmm ⦠all
the things that go along with,
uh, the dynamics of parenting.
Right.
Adult children.
Adult children.
Oof.
I think there's so many levels of-
I feel like nobody prepares you
for her, the difficulty that adult
children- Right ⦠parenting is.
Like, ugh.
You know, I think, you know- Kerrye
tried, and I, I really didn't believe her.
Right.
And now my kids are
grown, and I'm like, "Oi."
Right.
I mean, they're not- There's-
⦠it's not crazy yet, but.
So many levels, and I think it even goes,
it extends even past that, that when
your parents get older, like my dad-
Mm-hmm ⦠he had to have some extra care.
It was almost like the role reversal.
Right.
Yep.
That gets even tougher.
Yeah.
You know, it's like eightâ¦
Like, when your kids are 18,
zero to 18, it's like, "Oh, okay.
I, I can do this.
They have to listen to me."
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And then the 18, above 18 to-
Right ⦠infinity, you know,
they get to do what they want.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
And that's the hard part.
Um, but they're amazing people.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean- Yeah ⦠if we just listen.
And I'll talk about that, too.
Yeah.
How, um, it's, it's nice
to learn from our children.
Right.
Yeah.
And then the parents.
Yeah.
I love my parents so much and, but
See through their eyes and it helps.
It, it's a full circle- Mm-hmm
⦠because then you're like, "Oh, okay.
I get it."
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And that's what you're hoping for
your children to say, "Oh, okay.
I, I get it, Mom."
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, but- You, you're hoping they'll
have the same moments that you had.
I, I do.
Mm-hmm.
Um, we grew up in Poplar Bluff, Missouri.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Yeah.
Um, it's about five hours north of here
in the Bootheel of Southeast Missouri.
And, um, my grandma would take us, uh,
Christie and I, it was just only us two at
that time, and this is back in the '70s.
Um, it's been a little while.
We don't talk about age here.
Yeah, we don't.
You know, it, it doesn't
really, it doesn't bother me.
I just always say we're not old until
we're 200, so I always feel young.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
That is a great phrase.
That is a great phrase.
You know, and I- I'm
gonna start saying that.
Yep.
Stealing it.
Yeah.
It makes you feel younger, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Think compared to whatever age you
are now, um- Right ⦠200's old.
That's old.
Oh, yeah.
But anyway, um, Grandma took us to church.
It was a Baptist church, a little
general Baptist in the country.
And, um, Mom would take us to town.
And I remember, you know, the
Saturday Night Live, the look- Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm ⦠in the '70s.
Um, we went to this little church
in town with Mom, and, uh, I
was at , children's church.
Mm-hmm.
And this man had this cool hair.
I mean, his hair- ⦠it
was, it was all like this.
It was fuzzed out.
Like it was an afro?
It was an afro.
It was so cool.
Yeah.
And I was just mesmerized by his
hair, and I was just looking at him.
I'mâ¦
And all I'm trying to do is just win
that one piece of candy, 'cause- Oh.
⦠I would be the quiet seat.
You know, I had to be the quiet seat.
And so Yep.
And back in those days, you know,
old school, it wasn't like two boys
get one and two girls get one- Right
like I do in my classroom today-
Yes ⦠to make everybody happy.
Um, it was everybody was
good for one piece of gum.
And so- Wow.
Yeah ⦠that's when I was first gone.
I remember that.
I remember those, like, same techniques of
where the- Oh, yes ⦠I went to church.
Listen, I had to be good with no candy.
Right?
I know.
I'm just, poor- She grew up in
the North ⦠poor tiny Jill.
Oh, I'm sorry.
We're sorry you grew up- Well,
welcome to the South I know,
where there's candy galore.
Candy abundant.
Bless your heart, Jill.
I love it.
I love it.
Something about this full-grown man.
I mean, he had like the whole
suit, the long, you know- Mm-hmm
"Saturday Night Live."
Mm-hmm.
He had that look, and
I was just mesmerized.
And I noticed that while I was
thinking about this one piece of
candy, he was up there walking
back and forth, and he was crying.
And I, I really saw tears coming
down his face, and he was walking
across, and I didn't understand why
is this full-grown man crying- Mm-hmm
talking to us kids.
We're just little kids.
And, uh, he was talking
about Jesus, you know?
He was talking about him on the
cross and, um, I didn't get it.
But something he said stuck with
me, and he said, "You do not have
to be Uh, you don't even have
to walk up to me to get saved.
You can be at home.
You could be sitting there in your seat.
You can just ask him in your heart-
Right ⦠right where you are.
And I don't know why I didn't right then.
I didn't.
But five days later, I, I
was marinating, you know?
Mm-hmm.
I was thinking on, on this.
And Mom would let us sleep in our sleeping
bags on Saturday night in front-- I
mean, Friday night in front of the TV
because- Saturday morning cartoons.
Yes.
Yep.
Yes.
Yeah, 100%.
Bugs Bunny.
So- Yeah.
Um, I remember I was laying on my stomach.
We were zipped up in eachâ¦
My sister, we called her Tina back then.
It's Christie in Florida.
Mm-hmm.
Um, she, she was over there, and
we were down there, you know.
We had our memorized prayer.
"Now I lay me down to sleep."
Yes.
And all I could think about
was this man in this cool Afro
and suit, and he's crying.
And after I finished that little
memorized prayer, I thought,
"That's, that's not good enough.
I think I'm gonna just pray."
And I didn't know how to pray, you know?
But my heart, I started crying.
And I'm like, "Why am I crying?"
You know?
And I, I knew that the Holy
Spirit was touching me and
talking to me at that moment.
And I, uh, it's could be debatable
by anybody, but I know as a
child, eight years old, I sawâ¦
I was at the foot of the cross.
I was- Aw ⦠prostrate, and I was
looking up, and I was at the foot of
the cross, and Jesus looked at me.
He didn't move his lips.
And, um, he said, "Suzy,
everything's gonna be okay."
Aw.
Aw.
And so, you know, at eight years
old, how many sins can you do?
Right.
But, but I knew I had to
have- Right ⦠a savior.
Yeah.
And I knew I was not good enough.
And my sister and I, we always argued
and possibly slapped, you know?
And so- Possibly.
Yes.
Possibly.
You know, um, she would like throw
s- those granddaddy long legs on me.
And, and you know, that good- Wow.
I'm sorry, Christie.
Torture.
I'm sorry, Christie.
But, um, I love her, and she's
one of my best friends now.
Oh, yeah.
'Cause you grow up and you
be best, you're best friends.
And I knew that was
coming and- In the South.
In the South, that's what we do.
In the South.
Well, listen, we have three in our house,
and, and the other two are pretty close.
Yeah.
So I'll, I'll justâ¦
There was one coming.
Oh, it's coming.
It's coming.
Eh.
Um, I mean, I love my sisters.
I do
Yes That's sweet.
That's sweet But, um, so she
would-- I would run, and she would
throw those little spiders at
me, and then all of a sudden she
realized I was running too fast.
And so she one time picked the legs
off and threw them in circles at me.
And I'm likeâ¦
It was going down my shirt.
I was, I wasâ¦
So I had a grudge.
And so I knew that once I got saved
and I woke up, the first person
I wanted to hug was my sister.
I knew what I was saying.
You know, I knew.
So- You're like, "This is
real 'cause I like her now."
I know.
And it's just been better ever since.
Oh, that's good.
But I wanted to share that moment
because it comes into play later.
But God is just so good,
and he speaks to us.
And, um, I've always loved language.
I'm a language teacher, and
something so cool happened during
that little vision that I saw.
And, um, you know, Suzy can
be spelled so many ways.
Like how do you guys spell it?
Well, I mean, like you.
I spell it like you now.
You spell it, yeah.
But I thinkâ¦
Yeah.
'Cause newsflash, Suzy Turnbow
does not spell it S-U-S-I-E-
Right ⦠or S-U-Z-I-E.
It's S-U-Z-Y.
Right.
Yeah.
So now when I think Suzy, I think
of it- Yes ⦠like you- Right
⦠'cause you're the Suzy I know.
And you know, it's specific
to who you are- Right
and just how you spell your name.
Yeah.
And, and so The very first
words out of his mouth to me,
looking me deep into my soul.
Mm-hmm.
Heâ¦
It was almost like he was pointing at me.
He's, you know, he's up there.
And he said, "Suzy."
It was like my soul knew
he spelled it right.
And- Yeah.
Aww.
It, that meant so much to me- Yeah
as a little, I don't know.
It was- Well, he knew it would,
so that's why you're feeling that.
He knows my name.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so anyway, so that, that
moment has brought me through so
many difficult moments in my life.
Um, so I'm gonna fast-forward
way forward from that.
Um, we are a blended family.
We have five adult children.
Mm-hmm.
Um, with number eight
grandbaby on the way.
Wow.
Congrats.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Congrats.
Kolyn has three.
Uh, Chloe's working on her third,
and April and Johnny have two, and
they're in, in the Fort Smith area.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, so it has been, you knowâ¦
I used to think there were only
about two personalities for
children, but I am fully convinced
there are at least five, you know?
Yeah.
You know, uh, all in their spec-special
ways- Mm-hmm ⦠and all, umâ¦
It's my favorite title, title I've
ever had, you know, is to be a mom.
And so I got permission.
This is, this is something that when
I was telling you guys, I get myself
in these situations accidentally.
But, um, you know, I knew.
It was like I was typing and I was
like, "You know, this is a talk show."
And, a-and I was telling you guys on this
thread that I made how awesome you are
and how all these testimonies are- Mm-hmm
⦠blessing my heart and just wanting
to encourage, encourage, encourage.
Yeah.
And I thought, "You know,
they're probably gonna ask."
Mm-hmm.
And it was like within four texts, I
think- Yeah ⦠Jill said, "Come on."
I'm like, "Why did I do this?"
You know?
But we can do, we can
do hard things and- Yes.
Mm-hmm.
And God does bring us through all
these things in life so that we
can share and that we can help
others that are going through it.
Yeah.
And so what has consumed my life
in the last More than a decade, and
you've been there for a lot of it.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I don't know, did you know Skye?
I, I knew Skye, um, when she was in
youth for, like- Yes ⦠probably
the last two years we were there.
Yes.
Um, but I mean, I think- 'Cause you
were- We were youth spon- ⦠youth
sponsors ⦠Ben and I were youth
sponsors, but she- ⦠I think, I
can't remember if she was one of ours.
Oh, she was- Was she in the same grade
as Cannon Pelham, or was she- Yes.
Okay.
So she was one of ours.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
And she was, um, she was a demon.
Yeah.
In the play.
Yeah.
And Ben, Ben was- She was?
And Ben was- ⦠Satan with her.
Okay.
And also Whit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
I remember Ben has told me that,
um, that Skye and, um, her name just
fell out of my head Caitlin Caitlin?
Caitlin, yes.
Swain?
Swainy were- Swainy yes ⦠the
best demons he's ever had.
Oh.
Sorry, sorry to everyone else, but I think
they also might've been his first demons.
Yeah.
So maybe it's like the Jesus-
Yeah, that connection ⦠like the
first Jesus you have is your Jesus.
Yes, that's your person.
Yes.
Yeah.
Maybe his, his first demons were
the ones, but- And she- Yeah
she even, I think they still do
something that she suggested.
Um, you know where, um, they freeze?
Mm-hmm.
She suggested that so many years ago.
Yeah.
That's good.
And, and it was so neat as a parent
to, to watch her start getting
into church and- Mm-hmm ⦠youth-
Mm-hmm ⦠and the things.
And, um, it was really cool that-
She was great in fine arts, too.
Yeah.
Everything that she did- So talented
⦠and such a wonderful singer and musician.
Oh.
Yeah, she was just so talented.
She's one of those, she can just sit
down, if she could puts her mind to
it- Oh, yeah ⦠she could do it.
100%.
Oh.
100%.
Yeah.
And, um, so I got her permission, and
Katlyn, I'll focus more on Skye, but, um,
I got both of their permission to, you
know, thumbs up to mention their names.
I probably won't dig super deeply,
but, you know, I will give the
gist and, and from my perspective.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Because, uh, Skye told me, she's just so
sweet, and she said, "You know, Mom, this
is your story as much as it is mine."
And I thought- Mm.
That's sweet ⦠"I love you."
Yeah.
Yeah.
So sweet.
And that's- Sweet
gonna bless somebody.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And she can take it, you know?
I can, I could tell everything about
her and she's fine, but I still
wanna respect her- Right ⦠privacy.
Yeah.
And- Well, I mean, and it,
it is your perspective.
Like there's, there is a singular
event, but multiple people involved,
and everyone has their own- Mm-hmm
understanding of what happened.
And I feel like this phrase gets
thrown around a lot, but like two
things can be true at the same time.
Absolutely.
And this is where that, that lives
is in our perspective of a situation.
Ben, as, um, probably your dad has
said this a million times 'cause I've
heard it from multiple investigators,
but like he always says there's like
his side, her side, or- And the truth
his side, and then there's
the truth in the middle.
But like, there, what your perspective
is, is true to you- Right ⦠'cause
it's your idea, but- Well, and
it's like in the four gospels.
There, you know- Yeah ⦠some of the
same stories are told- That's true
⦠but they're just slightly different.
It's because there's four
different writers here.
Exactly.
True.
You know?
Yeah.
It's so cool how, was it 66 that came
together and they all said the same thing?
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
In their own perspective.
Yes.
Yeah.
And you can't hardly get two people
in a room to say the same thing.
Right.
You cannot.
That's what's so amazing about the Bible.
Yes.
Yeah.
Um, but Uh, when Skye and Elise
were in second grade, and the
twins and Morgan, uh, the twins
were one year older than Morgan.
We all, you know, we were
starting to go on the road full
time with Sounds of Victory.
Mm-hmm.
And so, um, the kids
were raised on the road.
Mm-hmm.
We would, we would go out
sometimes for weeks at a time.
Wow.
I think seven weeks was our longest tour.
And, um, so they were brought up
in church all the time, constantly.
They had, you know, "Yes, ma'am.
Yes, sir."
They were perfect, you know, on the
pews, and people would brag on them.
You know- Mm-hmm ⦠"How do
you get them to sit still?
They're so little, and they're,
they're just sitting still."
You know, and we had, you know, a
little switch for a visual, you know.
Just a reminder, you know.
That was something that Steve's
mom did, and- Mm-hmm ⦠it worked.
And, uh, we didn't have to
use it much, but- Mm-hmm.
You know.
Um, but anyway, I think there was a lot
of maybe fear, uh, that was attached to,
um, God and church and church people.
Mm-hmm.
There was a-- It seemed to be more
fear-oriented than love-oriented.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, they did see the
wonderful things that happened.
They saw people coming down,
getting delivered and saved
and, and all of those things.
But when Skye got saved, it
was literally in a tornado.
Because- Wow ⦠we were s-
she was scared, I was scared.
Uh, and I asked her, I said, "Do
you wanna get saved right now?"
And I mean, we didn't know.
We were at practice.
Mm-hmm.
We, we were a garage band when we first
started, and we were at the garage.
And we went all into the
house and taking shelter.
And, um, this tornado, it did, it
jumped over that house basically
and went on to Hector area-
Mm-hmm ⦠which it always lands.
No.
Yeah.
Poor thing.
I'm sorry, Hector people.
Yeah.
But, um, anyway, she got saved.
And she, she was probably, uh,
10, 11 before time- Mm-hmm,
mm-hmm ⦠that you guys would have her.
And she, she did.
It was true.
It was-- But it was still started in fear.
Yeah.
And so I think thatâ¦
And there was a lot of, like, great
preachers that we listened to.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
But, you know, um, an old
school- Right ⦠and I love it.
I definitely read it.
Fire and brimstone.
Fire and brimstone.
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, when, when you go through
these moments, and I'll talk about a
couple of moments of silence, boundaries-
Mm-hmm ⦠that, that, you know, we
as parents will put boundaries on our
children, but then when they pass 18 and
up, they wanna put the boundaries on us.
It doesn't feel so good.
And, you know, it's kinda- Mm-hmm
⦠like the role reversal again.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, so
I think it, it put a taste maybe in
hers and maybe in Katlyn's mind about
God and Christianity and salvation.
And once they were able to be old
enough and choose their own path,
um, they wanted to pull away from the
things that, that we had taught them.
And, um, I was not looking
forward to the empty nest.
You know, I loved havingâ¦
The oldest one was already married and
out, but four children at home raising.
And, you know, my job that I love so
much, we have 150 students, you know.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I, I love being around children.
Me too.
And they make me feel
like God is close by.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
Kinda like Michael Jackson.
That's sweet.
I love- Yes ⦠him.
I do.
I do.
He's- Yeah.
He- I do.
I love him.
I love it.
I love it.
I had a student that loved him so much
last year, and he had the red jacket with
the black and- Oh ⦠had the hat, and he
would, he would do the moves, and we would
have, you know, they'll, they would line
up outside my door and, and I probably
won't say his name for privacy, but- Yeah
um, every, our little handshake before
he w- came in was- Mm-hmm ⦠"Hee, hee."
And he would do it, and I would do it too.
So great.
So cute.
Cute.
I love it so much.
And then when the movie came out,
he was like, "Did you go see it?"
I said, "Not yet, but I'm going."
Um- ⦠yeah, we were the only ones
singing in there, but it was so awesome.
Um- I love it so much ⦠I love him.
But-
I get myself sidetracked.
I'm sorry.
Oh, it's fine.
No, it's totally fine.
I like, I like the little
side- I do ⦠side quests.
I do.
Yeah, they're fun.
Yeah.
I love it.
Um
. Okay.
So again, I think that
The fear that was so in, in our
lives, um, I would allow, uh
Our ministry, the things we would
say before singing and, and the
preachers we worked with, you know,
I was letting that-- that was how
they were being raised, and I'm,
you know, totally, totally love and
don't regret that they heard it and
we heard it and we did it, you know?
Um, but when they growâ¦
Of course, this isâ¦
Keep in mind, this is my perspective.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Like, I would love to have her sitting
right here because, you know, they--
our children do love to correct us.
Oh, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
They get to correct us now.
Uh-huh.
You know?
Yeah.
And I'm sure, like, if I get dates wrong
or whatever, a timeline or a thought that
maybe she was thinking this, she would be
glad to, to let all of us know that- Guy,
you are welcome to come on anytime- Yes
you want to.
Anytime.
Okay.
So fast-forwarding to, um, 2011.
Uh, Skye got married and
moved to Mammoth Spring.
And my first-- And I've analyzed this over
and over during the moments of silence.
Um, my first parent fail that I thought I
could pinpoint was as she flew the coop,
you know, so to speak, I didn't wanna
be like one of those meddling mothers
that was like, "Have you found a church?
Have you foundâ¦"
You know?
Mm-hmm.
And, and just keep on-
Mm-hmm ⦠preachy, preachy.
And, um, I think I asked her that
question maybe once, maybe twice.
Uh, but I kinda let it be because
they had grown up in the ministry,
and I thought, you know, she knows
right- Mm-hmm ⦠from wrong, and, and
she'll do, you know, what she wants
as an adult, and I have to let her.
Yeah.
I have to let her discover.
Yeah.
You know?
And so I feel like there was a lot of,
um, idle time, and she was sh- up there
where there wasn't a college close by.
She had gone to, to Tech, and, um, so
a lot of her time was spent online.
And, you know, if, if you're notâ¦
Even as a- adult kids, if you're
not gonna pour into them still,
then the world definitely will.
Mm-hmm.
And so there was a lot
out there to discover.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, and we had talked about this.
It's been a long time since we've
talked about this, but, um, I tried
to let her be her adult self, and
I didn't, like, call her all the
time, and I, and I really wish I had.
So I, I feel like maybe I was more
absent from her, and maybe she,
maybe she needed-- Maybe I'm just
wishing that she needed me more.
Mm-hmm.
But I, I think that's where I
kinda messed up a little bit.
Like, she lived there only one year,
and I went up there three times.
That's not enough-
Mm-hmm ⦠in my opinion.
And so we moved her there.
That was one time.
And then I took all the kids up there.
We spent the night, and we had a good
time, and then we moved her back.
Mm-hmm.
And that was it.
Um, I felt so guilty, you know?
And, and so, um-
She around, we'll scoot up to 2016-ish.
Um, she had an opportunity
to go to Hawaii.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, she asked me,
she said, "Should I go?"
Um, one of her friends lived over
there, and her husband had been
deployed, and so she had an opportunity
to be there for three months.
And I said, "Well, yes.
Go to Hawaii."
Yeah.
Um, so, so she did.
And while there, um, she
had a job to survive.
Mm-hmm.
It's so expensive over there.
It is expensive.
And she met some people and,
and she met this girlfriend.
And, um, when she came back
to, to live, she still lived
at home for a little while.
Actually, I think that
was around 2014-ish.
And, um, she decided that she wanted
to go over there because she had
a relationship with this person.
Mm-hmm.
And she wanted to tell me before she left.
And, um, we definitely have
She was definitely choosing
a, a very different path
than what she'd been raised.
Mm-hmm.
And I tried not to cry, but I did.
Mm-hmm.
I cried right in front of her.
We hugged.
We-- Everything was
fine, um, but it wasn't.
Mm-hmm.
And it really did change a
lot of the dynamic between us.
And now I told her, you know, "It
doesn't matter what, what you do ever."
Yeah.
Yeah.
"You will always be loved.
You will always be welcome here."
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Um, but I couldn't hide
the disappointment- Yeah.
Yeah ⦠in my heart and where
I thought this was headed.
And so she walked o- she went over there,
and of course, not being on the mainland,
I couldn't just get to her, and I have
a fear of flying and all these things.
But I will be there if I have to.
Yeah.
I will do what I can.
Yeah.
And, uh, and she knows
that, and I say that.
And, um-
Then 2016 hit, and, um, I think
there was some kind of a meteor
that was supposed to hit the Earth.
Yeah.
And I had taught these kids in
homeschool, I had taught them like
Revelations- Mm-hmm ⦠the last chapter.
Yeah.
And they had, they had said it
out loud in front of crowds.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, I knew she knew what we knew.
And so when she got married in
2011, I decided I was not going
to like preach to her anymore.
Yeah.
I would let her figure it out on her own,
and that was a really hard thing to do.
Yeah, it is.
And to let go.
And so, um
I, it was welling up inside
of me to say something.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm like, "But Lord," you
know, "I don't, I don't want the
relationship to get, you know,
have a riff in it or whatever."
And I didn't realize she was, she was on
her way with her friend to the movies.
I didn't know.
She tells me this later.
Yeah.
Um, but basicallyâ¦
And, and I'm, to my peers and
I, I'm actually more introverted
than people think, you know?
Yeah.
I know I'm up there with a mic,
but- Yeah ⦠worshiping to God,
that's totally different than- It is
than talking and speaking-
Yeah ⦠and all that.
And I, I became like a little Jonica.
I was preaching to her.
Mm-hmm.
I was like, "You better get your
life right, and if you don't
You're going to hell.
Basically, I, I was the fire
brimstone preacher at that moment.
I didn't realize this, and I thought, you
know, I was seeing the overall picture
because in my mind, I don't want to be
in heaven and the judgment happened and
she's over there bawling her eyes out,
"Mom, why didn't you tell me-" Yeah
"the truth?"
You know?
I didn't want that for her or
any of our kids or anybody.
Yeah.
And so I thought, "Well, the-- She's
gonna be mad at me if I preach to
her, but the bigger picture is that
I c- if, if she will just listen and
do it, I'll be in eternity with her."
Mm-hmm.
And that's the bigger picture.
Yeah.
Okay.
So this is the beginning of our first
moment of silence, that's what I call it.
Um, she ended up, and please forgive
me, Sky, I think this is okay to say.
She had a panic attack.
Mm.
And I didn't know because she hung up.
She was crying and she
was having a panic attack.
Mm.
I don't remember if she
had to go to the hospital.
Oh, yeah.
But her friend was there and it
was, it, I mean, it really breaks
my heart to think about it.
Mm-hmm.
But I know all these hard
things happen for a reason.
Mm-hmm.
And I know that there are other
families that are probably right
in the middle of this right now.
Right.
Yeah.
And I really reach out to you,
and if you're listening to this
story, and it will hit home.
Um- So a week went by and I didn't
hear from her, and I left her alone.
I thought, "Let her cool down.
She's gonna be mad.
Mom's preaching again."
Um, and two weeks went by, and
here she is, 22-ish or more,
and I'm like, "This is weird.
I- I'm her mom."
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I've been mad at her,
but I still talk to her.
Why is she not talking to me?
Mm-hmm.
Um, month rolled by, and then
about six months rolled by, and I--
Then I became kind of desperate.
I don't know what month you came up to
me, and you knew, at church, Kerrye.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you knew that she lived over
there, and you- Yeah ⦠loved her,
and- Oh, yeah ⦠um, you've alwaysâ¦
I appreciate you.
I'll just say publicly right now,
thank you guys so much for all that
you do, loving on our children.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, I knew you loved her.
Yeah.
And I knew you knew she
was over there, and sheâ¦
I don't know.
I think it was after altar time
or maybe during altar time.
Mm.
And in my perspective, you seem
kinda quiet to me with peers.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
She's definitely an introvert.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so for you to come across- Yeah ⦠to
talk to me, I thought that was different.
But it was a God moment because I
was in desperation, and maybe you
saw me praying, asking God, "Please
help me to reach back out to her
because I have to have her in my life.
She's my flesh and blood.
I have to have her."
Mm-hmm.
And to thinkâ¦
And I, I have a, a fault of, um, if
I think someone looks at me wrong, I
think they hate me, and then I'm- Yeah
worried about it.
I don't sleep.
And Steve- Mm-hmm ⦠he's
the most patient person.
He goes, "Don't overthink."
Yeah.
"Stop overthinking."
Um, but just going through all these
things with Sky has helped me become
a better human being, I think, because
I've tried things to help better myself.
Hopefully it helps better relationships
with everybody else, you know?
Yeah.
But I still have things that Iâ¦
I'm very tender-hearted.
Yes.
Sorry.
Yes, you are.
But, um, anyway, um, so you came to me,
and I had bought her this little ring,
and I thought, "Well, do I mail it to her?
I just need to know I,
that she still loves me."
Mm-hmm.
You know?
And I, I want her to be saved
and, but I want her to love me.
I'm her mom, and, and I know she loves me.
And I just knew that in my heart.
And you came up and you said,
"We're gonna go to Hawaii."
And I said, "Oh, really?
Girl, that's so awesome."
And there's what?
Five islands.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I-- You, you
said, "What is her island?"
And I said, "Oahu."
And you said, "That's where we're going."
Mm-hmm.
"Oh my goodness."
And it was just like, I felt like
God was making a moment there.
And I saidâ¦
And I hope I didn't impose, but
I said- No ⦠"Is there any
way that I could get this ring?"
Yeah.
"Maybe you guys can meet
real fast or something."
Yeah.
It's not a very big island.
Yeah.
But I've-- Then I, after
thinking about it right now, I'm
like, "They were on vacation."
No, I was, you know, I kinda,
I think I remember thinking,
"I wonder if I can go see her."
Yeah.
I mean, how often do you get to- Exactly
⦠connect with somebody who lives in Hawaii?
Right.
So- And she didn't have visitors.
Right.
And that's a little taste of home.
It's an island.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I have thoughts about just the island,
and we don't have to talk about it
right now, but 'cause I don't wanna
interrupt you, but just remind me.
Oh, yeah, totally fine.
Isolation and stuff-
Yes ⦠with an island.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
And so you guys did get to meet.
Yes.
You, you met her friend.
Yeah.
And, um- We had a great
dinner together, I thought.
Like, I really enjoyed it.
Awesome.
So.
And, and I liked her, you know?
Um, anyway, uh, so when you came home and
you told me that she accepted my gift,
that was just like, it was a hug to me.
Yeah.
Um, and I think, I don't know,
there might've been a few more
months, but I think it, it
helped break the ice with her.
And- Softened the ground a little bit.
Softened the ground a little bit.
And so then, I don't know whatâ¦
It was almost exactly a year.
It was like I was being
punished, you know, the- Mm
all this role reversal again.
And so I was like, "Okay, I'm just
gonna let her figure all this out."
And, um, so she came to visit, and I
remember one time she, she and I went
to the garage just to talk it out,
and we both got in the back of Steve's
truck, and we sat there for an hour
or so at just talking everything out.
And out of her mouth, she said, "You
know, I really feel like one day I'll
probably be at RFA sharing some of
these things that we've gone through."
And I said-
⦠"Say that again."
Yeah.
Both of y'all.
Yeah.
"Say that again."
Um, and so-
And so that gave me so much hope and
so much, uh, excitement that, you know,
even when you're right in the middle of
the, of the hardest part of each battle,
there's always gonna be an end to it.
And, um, Satan wants to
let you think it's over.
Right.
You know, it's all over.
And I remember thinking I
felt like it was a death.
I was grieving a child that was
still alive, and it was so hard.
I can imagine.
I mean, it's just, it's so hard.
And so we're gonna fast-forward to, um-
Uh, 20
Yeah.
Yeah.
And if there was not division in
families, churches, coworkers- Yeah.
Yeah.
There was an obvious division during that.
Yes.
Yeah.
For sure.
Even, uh, I mean, even within the
church, I mean, you had your, your
team- Mm-hmm ⦠vaccine team mask
people and team no vaccine, no mask.
Mm-hmm.
We were on one side, and she
was on the other- Mm-hmm.
Yeah ⦠completely.
And we were, uh, whatever side you
were on, you were passionate about it.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
As for your valid reasons on both sides.
Mm-hmm.
And so there's just some things
it's hard to compromise here-
Mm-hmm ⦠for either side.
And so I believe that might have been
the beginning of the second moment of
silence, which lasted almost two years.
Oh, man.
And oh my goodness, my heart, you
know, was being so ripped out.
At first, I was kinda angry.
I was like, "Oh, here
we go again," you know?
But, um-
It's like I'm, I'm a
teacher, so I wanna learn.
Mm-hmm.
I wanna learn how to better myself.
And so I'm like, "Okay,
I'm gonna learn from this.
We're gonna learn.
We got through that first one.
We're gonna learn.
Everything's gonna be fine."
And so, um-
You know, during this 2020,
relationships, I believe across
the world were probably damaged.
I heard other stories.
Oh, yeah.
100%.
Yeah.
You know, and I don't mean
to be talking the whole time.
No, we- No, no, no.
Th- this is- You go ahead.
Yep.
Yep.
This is what we do.
You're good.
You're good.
But, um, there were a lot of relationships
that, uh, were damaged, and as
Christians, we know those can be restored.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
And well, there's all kinds
of scripture to back that up.
Um, and the scripture, I would put
the prodigal son scripture everywhere.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I mean, I stood on that and I
still stand on that to this day.
I would watch those military
videos where the, the guy comes
home and he surprises his mom.
Oh.
Yeah.
Yes.
I mean, I was desperate for some
little inkling that she still loved
me, and I knew she did in my heart.
Yeah.
Matter of fact, she wouldâ¦
She kind of cut herself off
from a lot of the family too.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, but every once in a while
they would get to talk to her, and I
would say things like, "Please tell
her I love her," and you know, that.
And she would tell them, you
know, "Tell Mom I love her.
I do love her."
And I don't think she was a
bad mom, things like that.
You know, things that she knew
that I would need to hear.
Yeah.
And, um, she's, she's great.
But, um, you know-
When we came back together after the
second time, um, she and I both agreed
that it was hard, but it was good.
It was actually good.
It's like the pruning- Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm ⦠of a tree.
You know, it was so hard to go
through, but it was probably necessary.
Yeah.
Because it did make us stronger and,
and we're very strong today, and gonna
be way stronger tomorrow, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
It's just gonna grow.
Um, but
There were, there was this ti-- at
the very end of that two years, I
thought, "This is never gonna end."
And then I, I was begin- I was
beginning to become desperate.
So then I thought, "Okay, think of movies.
What do people do?"
I thought of "The Notebook."
And so I'm like, "Okay, he wrote
her a letter every day for a year,
so I'm just, I'm gonna do that.
That might work."
So here I was.
I was handwriting, old school, I was
writing her a letter every day, and
this happened for six to eight weeks.
It was long.
That's, yeah.
It felt like a year, but it wasn't.
Yeah.
And so later, she kinda laughs
about it later, and she's like,
"Mom, it was just kind of annoying
just to read two sentences."
'Cause I didn't care if
we did nothing that day.
I was writing her at least a sentence.
Mm-hmm.
"I love you.
This is what we did."
And somehow she was gonna connect.
Yeah.
Somehow I was just getting desperate.
And, um, and so finally, Christmas night,
2023, about 10 o'clock, you know, it's
Christmas, I haven't heard from my baby.
Mm-hmm.
And, oh, I'm sorry.
She's not a baby anymore.
Always.
But they'll always be my baby.
Yeah.
Um- That's how moms
feel ⦠but I get this
With a little Christmas tree
emoji, and it was the sweetest
text I've ever gotten in my life.
Mm-hmm.
And,
um, I mean, I know you know the pain.
You've seen a lot of it.
You've prayed for me-
Mm-hmm ⦠a lot of times.
And, um-
She started connecting with me through
text, and there's, there's levels here.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Can't, can't just go right into FaceTime.
I'm like- Yeah ⦠I'm the, like,
the military video, "Where are you?
I am gonna hug right now," you know?
No, we-- I had to allow her her
space, and I have learned through
all this process that, um, we have
to give each other space to grow.
Mm-hmm.
And she, she definitely gives
other people space, so I need to
do that for her and respect that.
So we began talking and, uh,
she was in Boston at this time.
She's my world traveler.
She goes everywhere.
She really is.
I remember hearing, like, every, every
time I'd hear, like, a little snippet
of what Sky was up to, I'm like, "Oh."
Like she was in another part of the world.
Yes.
Like, oh.
I love it.
How long has that been happening?
She's been to Ireland
three months- Mm-hmm.
Yeah ⦠twice.
And I mean, she's gotten to see all
these wonderful places- Yeah ⦠and
people, and that's just amazing.
I am high-key jealous.
Not even low-key.
And she would not be- Just high-key.
She would not care.
Yeah.
Um, so she would be glad, uh, you know-
Yeah ⦠to show you and take you there.
Um, but we started talking about
family counseling, and I was all in.
I was like, "Yeah, I will
save money in, in the summer.
I will come up to Boston."
And, um, and she's likeâ¦
I could tell she was all in.
And then after a few days, I think she
thought about it, and she was talking
to Christie in Florida a little bit.
And Chris, you know, she was
kind of our mid- middle person
there for a little while.
And, um, she was telling her, "No, I think
I'm, I, I think I would feel betterâ¦"
No, no, no, she actually--
Let me get this right
She was texting me saying, "I th- I
think it'd be better for you to go-
Okay ⦠by yourself first before we
go to c- family counseling together."
Okay.
So this is where myâ¦
You know, she might have had a f- a
pride flag to fly, but I had one too.
Mm-hmm.
A different kind.
Yeah.
And this is where, um, I find that being
vulnerable by sharing your testimony,
it's good for you, it's good for everyone.
Mm-hmm.
It's that moment.
Yep.
And I'm thinking, "Okay, I, I got
a little bit angry," but I'm like,
"Nope, not gonna mess anything up.
Not gonna mess anything up,"
'cause it, it's traumatizing to
not have your child to- Yeah.
Yeah ⦠to feel like their,
their, the relationship is dead.
It's traumatizing.
So y- every little thing you do, you go,
"Don't wanna mess it up again," you know?
But I was kind of angry, and
I didn't want her to know.
I was like, "I don't
need to go," you know?
Right.
Have that pride pop up.
I'm not the one with the problem here.
You know?
Yeah.
I, you know.
And so, I, I get paid to, you know,
analyze whether children that have been
traumatized need to go to a counselor.
Mm-hmm.
But what are you-- You're telling
me I need to go to a counselor.
And so-
I learned through this process that I
need to listen to what she has to say.
Mm-hmm.
She's, she knows what she's talking about.
Yeah.
You know?
So I, after about two
months of me debating
Yes, I will.
I'll do it 'cause I'm gonna do
anything it takes- Mm-hmm ⦠to get-
Mm-hmm ⦠connected back to her.
Yeah.
And she heard me say that over and
over, and it was ticking her off.
And she's like, "You're
telling me you'll do anything."
You know, she's-- This is, these are
thoughts that happened during this
process that we didn't talk about,
but later we talk about it now.
Yeah.
She's like, "You're telling me this,
but, uh, you weren't doing it."
But you weren't putting your
money where your mouth was, yeah.
And so I did find somebody,
super sweet lady, Christian lady,
and, um, it was in Russellville.
So, I, my first little meeting with
her, and I didn't tell Sky, not yet.
Mm-mm.
'Cause I was like- Need
to think he liked it.
I needed to have s- some
autonomy over my own- Yes.
⦠decisions.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
Like I was the rebel child at that moment.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
So I pulled up in the parking lot, and I
had, I still have these big black glasses.
I had 'em on, and I was kinda hiding down.
And she and I laugh about it now, but
I was kinda hiding down, you know,
thinking, uh, my pride flag was flying,
and it was like, I don't want anybody
to think I have any problems, you know?
Oh, goodness.
We all do.
We all do.
And we all need to be sitting in- Yeah
everybody, like- Yeah ⦠this
is such a proponent for therapy.
Let me tell you.
You know.
It's so good.
Oh.
And it's funny because, you know,
I feel like, you know, my friend
who is a therapist, um, said,
"Why is, why is it that way?"
Like everybody needs it.
So taboo.
And, you know, even in certain
parts of the wor- the nation- Mm-hmm
um, it's still taboo.
And I'm like, it really shouldn't be.
Why is that?
It really shouldn't.
We all have issues.
We do.
You know?
So.
Matter of fact, that day, my first day,
it was a one-hour session, and they had to
lock the door and come and get you, and so
I was under my sunglasses until she came
and got me, and I hurried up in there.
Uh, I-- It was like when you
take a hot bath and you get out.
I was so refreshed.
Yeah.
Um, the one hour turned into three hours.
Wow.
It was so wonderful.
I was crying.
She was crying.
She's a mom.
Yeah.
Um- And I loved it.
Mm-hmm.
I love it.
It's good.
It's so hard, but it's so worth
it and so good when you're done.
It is.
Not done, but like- Yeah ⦠when
you're going through it.
When you're going through it andâ¦
Yes.
And so, but I still did not-- I still
had levels of pride, and I didn't
want Sky to know I was doing it yet.
Mm-hmm.
'Cause I was doing something she told
me to do, and I didn't wanna do it.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So anyway, um, I told Christie though,
and so after about, I think a few months,
she was talking to her on FaceTime.
She, uh, and, uh, she said, "You
know your mom's going to therapy."
Now, I don't even know if my mom to
this day knows that I have done that.
Mm-hmm.
And my sisters, other sisters, I don't
know if they all know, but they know now.
So- It's okay ⦠but that's all right.
Yeah.
Hey, I'm over it.
Yeah.
Um, so, so this was the key.
The key I'd been searching for during
those two moments of silence was just
me giving in, and Christie said, "You
know your mom's going to therapy."
And Sky goes, "Really?"
And tears were forming in her eyes,
and that's what she wanted to see.
She wanted to see that I was willing
to put work in, that she was worth it,
that it didn't always have to be my way.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
And that I was willing to meet
her halfway- Yeah ⦠even if
it was uncomfortable for me.
Mm-hmm.
And so we did that, um-
And then she moved to
New York and Boston area.
Uh, I promise this is coming to a close.
No, you're doing great.
Perfectly fine.
So then the opportunity came where, um
She invited Caitlin and I to help her.
She s- this was gonna be our first
moment after two years of silence.
And, um, I just could not wait
to get my arms around that girl.
And I really wanted to go by myself, but
I was so thankful- Yeah ⦠that she had
Caitlin to g- she, she flew up there by
herself the day before, and then I flew.
And then we were all
three gonna road trip- Oh
back to Arkansas with
the rest of her things.
That's fun.
Her husband had already moved to, uh,
New Mexico, and he had a job there.
And, and, uh, we were just gonna
get a mother-daughter, a field
trip- Mm-hmm ⦠basically.
I was so excited.
And, um, so I got there, and guess
who picked me up from the airport?
Who?
Sydney Johnson.
Aw.
Yeah.
Fun.
I love her so much.
Yeah.
And sheâ¦
Yes.
And she got to meet them.
And, and my prayer during
that silent moment was, "Lord,
please let them meet somewhere.
Please let them," you know?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And they never did, but at the end, you
know- Yeah ⦠uh, she got to meet her.
So then we were all on our best
behavior, and we were, you knowâ¦
You've always heard in the past if,
when you go to Thanksgiving, don't talk
about God, don't talk about politics.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Keep it, you know, in the middle.
Yeah.
And we were all three.
We're, uh, if one thing we did,
we raised very, um, strong-willed
children- Yep ⦠in their own ways.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And everyone gets to have their
own opinion, and that's- Yeah
totally fine.
Um, so we were
We were packing and we were
traveling back, and we were only
gonna spend one night on the road.
And we would take turns listening
to each other's music and
being on our best behavior.
Um, God and politics were not coming up.
We were going to thrifting and- Mm-hmm.
⦠we were just having the best
day, and it was perfect.
And we went to, you know, a
nice restaurant, and I-- it
was my turn to drive, and I was
driving, and we're just allâ¦
And of course, the topic of God comes up.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I, I'm not, probably not
gonna say who asked the question,
but you know you're watching a
movie and everything's all- Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And then you hear this,
like, record skip, like
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That, that was our moment,
the three of us together.
And we're all-- our radars are
up because we want it to be good.
We all want it to be good.
Yeah.
And, um, the question was asked:
"Do you think we're going to hell?"
So I'm sitting here driving, and
I'm looking straight forward, and
immediately my demeanor, demeanor changed.
I said, "No, I do not."
And I was serious, and I'm serious today.
And yes
You know, we're still in
the middle of our testimony.
Yeah.
We are- Mm-hmm ⦠currently present
in the middle of our testimony.
Yeah.
And I, I wanted to say some scripture, and
I wanted to say this- Yeah, yeah ⦠and I
wanted to say that, and blah, blah, blah.
You do this, and I do that, and we
don't agree, and blah, blah, blah.
Holy Spirit said, "Shut up."
Yep.
I was just thinking the Holy
Spirit put his hand straight
up over your mouth, didn't he?
Hey, shut up.
He has a way of doing that.
He does.
And so I, I had my hands on the, the
wheel, and I'm just looking forward.
They're bawling in the
back seat, and I'm bawling.
Devil, you are not gonna mess this up.
No.
Uh-uh.
You are not gonna mess this up.
No.
We have come so far.
We've had the perfect day making
brand new memories, not just
thinking about old memories.
We're gonna have new memories.
And so we got stopped.
We all, we all hugged and loved on each
other and, and it was just, it was a
bonding moment for all three of us.
But we were definitely more guarded
the rest of the trip, you know?
But, you know, it's not always flowers
and roses, and so every once in a while
you might hit a thorn, and that was one of
our thorns that we had to kinda get past.
And, when I was driving, Sky, you know,
she was looking up things and my code
My code is the scripture
of prodigal son, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And she's like, "What's the number?"
She's like, "What's the number?"
I'm like, "15-11-32."
And I'm, I'm looking at God, you
know, and going, she's having
to touch that, physically touch
that scripture on my- Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm ⦠phone to get into my phone.
And I felt s- I started kinda
feeling guilty, you know, about it.
And I'm like, after the second
or third time she touched
that scripture, and I'm like,
"Yes, Jesus."
So I told her right then.
I, I had to tell her.
She's like, "Oh."
She just kinda laughed it off-
Mm-hmm ⦠and it was, it was cute.
And anyway, I was- Aw.
I like how she goes with the flow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She does.
She knows me.
She knows, um- Yeah.
Yeah, she knows it's not a dig.
No.
Yeah.
And she knows we're all
about God and, and- Yeah
we're all, we're all about the end story.
Right.
Yeah.
And she knows that our faith, matter
of fact- And I think she probably
knew that in, in your way, that was,
that was you being close to her.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Even in your- And it's- ⦠silent
moments ⦠and even being-- Oh, yes.
For sure.
And I almost get scared to, um, to
kinda joke around about things like
that because I don't wanna do the
wrong thing or say the wrong thing.
Mm-hmm.
But it was a moment that we can,
we could kinda laugh and say- Yeah.
Yeah ⦠"I know what you're doing here."
Exactly.
"I'm touching the scripture,
and you're praying for me."
You know?
Yeah.
It's, it's really cute.
But, um
Then, um
Opportunity happened where, um, 2025
last year, last summer, she said
that I could come to New Mexico.
Mm-hmm.
And I got to go there for a whole
week, and I thought, "Oh, even if
it were a day," I was so excited.
And she was gonna allow us
to have our mother-daughter
time, and it was so awesome.
I brought my book of
pictures for you guys.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yay.
Oh, it was so awesome.
I don't know if, if you wanna look at it
now- Yeah ⦠or we can look at it later.
Oui, oui.
But, um-
Aw.
She's beautiful.
She is
Exactly the same Um, thank you.
I mean, obviously she looks older, but
like- Yeah ⦠you know how you have that
moment where like- I love it ⦠time
passes and you-- Like I still have a
picture of her in my head of her when
she's, you know, like 17 years old,
but like she looks exactly the same.
Aw.
Is that what you guys say?
Thank you.
So I got this opportunity and, um, and I
was just, just so thankful to be there.
It was so beautiful.
We had gone to New Mexico one
or two times with Sounds of
Victory, and she remembered it.
She was old enough to remember us going
down to Santa Fe at, and at Christmastime-
Wow ⦠we all were in a circle, and we
met these people from different countries,
and they were singing, "O Tannenbaum."
You know?
Yeah.
It was so cute.
Yeah.
People from Germany were singing it.
And, uh, we got to go down and,
and there's, there's a place in
there where the merchants areâ¦
They've unrolled the carpets, and the
silver that I wear- Mm-hmm ⦠almost,
almost every day, um, I get it from there.
And- Oh ⦠we were gonna
have our day, you know?
Um, she was not feeling well that week,
and, um, she, she felt terribly about it.
And I said, "I'm just glad to be here.
I, I just wanna be-"
Yeah "⦠near you," you know?
Yeah.
And they took me to see
Bona- Botanical Gardens.
I mean, they did all- Beautiful.
I'm looking at all the pictures
of it ⦠all kinds of things.
Yeah.
I got to see- So pretty
she was working at the
gym, uh, gymnastics.
Uh, she's, she does a
lot of things with that.
Mm-hmm.
And she's a nanny now,
and she's just so awesome.
But, um- Oh, that's cute ⦠um, so we,
we were on the day before I had to leave,
and we were headed from Albuquerque to
Santa Fe to do that day right there.
Mm-hmm.
And, um-
And we were about five minutes away from
Looking out at the sky and God
had given us such a beautiful day.
Sunny, fluffy white clouds, blue sky.
And this is the moment that
made everything worth it.
And she's, she is very tender-hearted and
love-- I'm more lovey-dovey, but she's,
she's tender-hearted in a different way.
Mm-hmm.
And she's driving and she's like,
"Mom, I know this was traumatic
for you to go through, but we're
not gonna have to do this again."
Oh.
And I was like, I was like,
"Okay, hold it together.
Hold it together."
This-- We're about to go shopping
and we're-- she and I are
really like, we shop like men.
Like we go in, get it, get out.
Yeah.
But when we have our day, you
know- Mm-hmm ⦠we know we can
do it, we can do it for hours.
And I'm like, "I don't wanna mess this up.
I don't wanna mess this up," but
tears were roll- I was looking
out the window at the beautiful
sky and I'm like, "You're right.
You know, you're right."
I wasn't looking at her.
I said, "Yeah, it was,
it was very traumatic.
It was like a death, you know?"
And, uh, finally I looked at her-
You know, the weight of the world.
I mean, my dad was killed, and
it was very similar to this pain
I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy
. The pain, the loneliness that happens
When you think your own flesh and
blood does not wanna be near you or
love you anymore, it's really hard
But this was the moment where she said- Oh
Hard, but it was good and necessary.
And I said, "I agree."
Yeah.
I don't like hard things, but
we have to do them sometimes.
And I said, "I'm actually
glad it happened," because it
took away my anxiety aboutâ¦
I, I mean, I, it still affects me,
but it took away my desperation, I
think, of thinking that we'd ever
have to do that again, you know?
Yeah.
And we talked about
this just the other day.
She said, "You know, there might be
times that we might get mad at each
other or whatever," but we haven't,
we haven't since December 25th, 2023.
Here it is '26, and I'm like,
"Yay, we're on a good roll.
We're still- Yeah ⦠we're
getting stronger every day."
Sh- we FaceTimed.
I FaceTimed Chloe and her yesterday.
It was awesome.
And, uh, but when she said,
um, "Mom, this story is just as
much yours as it is mine," and
gave me the thumbs up, it wasâ¦
I think it's healing for her
to hear my perspective too.
Yeah.
And, um
She also said something else.
She said, "Even though you're notâ¦"
I, I told her, I said, "But we're
not at the end of the story."
She said, "Well, even though
we're not at the end, you can
still tell her what it is so far."
That was another moment where I was like
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You know?
Please.
And so, I think that if
you're going through that, um-
Glean from everything that happens.
Try to listen more than you talk-
Mm-hmm ⦠especially if you're a parent.
Yeah.
It's hard to do.
Yeah.
But role reversal is going to
happen whether you like it or not.
Yeah.
In my opinion, I think it's gonna happen.
Yeah.
In some extreme or the
other, yes, it will.
I think so.
Yeah.
And so, um, I went with Lisa
Brians to, uh, one of the, the
book studies with Sister Tasha.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
She's so amazing.
Guys, let's just take a moment.
I mean, she's so- ⦠I just love her.
She is great.
Um, but there was this book
we were studying years ago,
2022, called "Drifting."
Did you guys read that?
No, I didn't.
Okay.
I think it was maybe one of the
first book studies that they did,
and I'm guilty of being so busy
that I don't come to all the things.
I did come- Oh, you
can't ⦠the other day.
It was so much fun with the mahjong.
You can't keep it up.
Yeah.
Oh.
Yes.
I, I need to know the next time.
I was not in that room, but I've
heard- I was not in that one either,
but- We were playing something else.
I love it.
But, um, let me pull this up
But this book talks about
Drifting and how Christians will allow
themselves to be just basically rocked
to sleep, and you won't even know
you're, you've drifted so far out to sea.
Right.
Like you can be on a boatâ¦
Oh, this person, I think the author in
the book, and it was called "Drifting"
or "Drift" something, the whole idea,
um, had fallen asleep in a boat, and
they had drifted out past the break.
Mm-hmm.
Oh.
And it was becoming a dangerous
thing, and I think her and her
husband were fishing or something,
and maybe both of them fell asleep.
Yeah, I think that's what the story was.
But anyway, it was a danger zone,
and I think this Coast Guard had to
save them and- Mm-hmm ⦠all that.
But it was so subtle and so quiet, and
you don't even know it's happening, and
then all of a sudden you're in danger.
Yeah.
So that night I went
home, and this poemâ¦
I hadn't written a song or a poem
or anything in, since I left, um,
uh, came off the road from 2005.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, my dad loved to write poems.
He wrote couplets all the time.
And this one's called "Drifting."
I should have brought my glasses.
Um, but I wrote it and I read it to
Caitlin and she said, "Oh, that's-"
And I think
Guy has heard it, but I'm not sure.
So this might be her
first time to hear it.
It says, "Drifting.
I sailed upon the ocean blue
in hopes of seeing the light.
I didn't wanna wait too long,
for soon it would be night.
I gathered everyone around.
I knew the trip was long.
I had to have my heart's desires
because they make me strong.
One by one, I added them to my tiny boat.
Our love was always very strong.
I knew we'd stay afloat.
My love, my kids, my family,
alas, they all were there.
But something broke inside of
me when someone didn't care.
The weight from all the pain and
strife began to toss my boat.
Things that once had made me strong
now seemed to hurt the most."
One at a time, a couple
felt the need to go explore.
They drifted in the deep blue
sea far from the distant shore.
They listened to the sirens as
they pulled them out to sea.
The deceiving of their weary
soul was tearing them from me.
The rocking and the swaying
of the undertow were there.
It wasn't long before I
felt a grief beyond compare.
Gently swaying high and low,
at first it seemed so small.
But viewing the horizon,
it wasn't small at all.
Where am I now?
And where are they?
I thought I had them near.
It doesn't seem like long ago.
How did we get right here?
It never starts out all at once.
It's just a subtle breeze until tornadic
winds begin to throw you to your knees.
But oddly, it's those times
that I feel His presence there.
He reminds me it's His battle,
and I really need to share.
His word is my anchor.
And if I will just be strong,
He'll make His promises
complete if I can just hold on.
So I gave Him everything I had to.
My heart, my life, my soul.
He told me it will be okay.
That's all I need to know.
As He holds the anchor
steadily, all we do is pray.
Simple things confound the
wise is what they always say.
Then one day, when they see that flag upon
the distant shore, they'll float upon the
waves of love to bring them safely o'er.
My Father will be making sure
they make it to that land.
He holds every single one
in the palm of His hand.
When they no longer have the
strength, He'll find His way to them.
He'll lead them out of darkness,
and He'll lead them out of sin.
He'll take them to the place
where the Lamb is the light.
There will not be any heartaches.
There will not be any night.
So darkness, I will not fear
the setting of your sun.
You made me think the end was
near, but the best is yet to come.
Oh
I'm gonna cry I know, right?
But theâ¦
You know
Here.
That's good.
It really- It was ⦠it really is.
The best is yet to come.
And these girls love the
Lord in their heart, I know.
And that, you know, they were raised,
and they're on a different path than us,
and that's okay because I, I know they're
gonna end up in heaven with us one day.
Mm-hmm.
You know, even after
that happened in the car
Well, we'll jump on there too.
Oh, yeah.
He wants to have his say.
He's such a character.
He's like, "Now they're confused.
Now they're confused.
They think, you know, they
think everything's all right."
But I talk to them individually and make
sure that I say, "You know, you know
what I believe and, and you know how
you were raised, and my faith tells me
that you're gonna be there at the end."
Yeah.
And I don't have to preach
all the middle stuff to them.
No.
They already heard it.
They know.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, it's just, it's incredible.
That's so good.
Yeah, that's so good.
Uh, several times when you were
talking, I felt like, you know, I get
the Holy Spirit shut up all the time.
Yes.
I do.
But, uh, one time I was mad
about somebody because they
said something about God to me.
Uh-huh.
Not good.
And I was like, "You hear
what they say about you?
Did you hear that?
I'm mad."
You know, like I'm- Right ⦠taking
up the offense and he- Yes ⦠he just
said, "I don't need you to do that."
Right.
He, I mean, he didn't say it gently.
Mm-hmm.
But he was like, "I don't
need you to do that for me.
I'm-- I can handle that myself."
Right.
"And now you are going into s-
dangerous area because you are
taking up offense-" Mm-hmm "⦠and
holding this against that person."
Right.
You know, and that, it ticked me off
when he said that to me, but he's right.
You know, he's always right.
And it took me a, it took me
a while to be like, "Okay."
He tends to be right.
"Okay."
You know, but he's like, "I
don't need you to do that."
He has full control.
Yeah.
Well, the other thing to think about is,
like, when you were saying just now, like,
the devil came in and was telling you,
like, "Now they're confused, and now they
don't know, and they think it's all fine."
Yeah.
Once you can identify, "This is,
this is not the Holy Spirit talking
to me, this is the devil," you can
just literally toss out everything
he says 'cause he's just a liar.
Right.
Like, so they're not confused 'cause he
said they were, so it's just the opposite.
Right.
You know?
Yeah.
And I have to give them the space
to make their way to heaven.
Yes.
It needs to be their relationship.
Their, theirâ¦
Yeah, their- Yeah ⦠relationship,
their way, and- And it will happen.
It will.
Like, I, I mean, we know that they
already have a relationship with him.
It just doesn't look like ours,
and it maybe isn't as close
as we would like for it to be.
Oh, we don't know.
But also, that's exactly right.
Yeah.
We don't know.
What happens in everyone's heart.
Exactly.
They-- I mean, it might be something
where they're closer than they have ever
been, and they just were masking before.
You know?
Like, uh, weâ¦
That's something that we don't really
talk about a lot- Right ⦠is how, how
many people we thought are Christians
are gonna be present after the rapture.
Right.
'Cause they just weren't- You know,
something I've- ⦠didn't have
that ⦠I've thought of was, you know
how it's like God is allowing all of
us to be the judges right now 'cause
in our hearts and minds, we judge all
the time, and we're not supposed to.
Oh, yeah.
We do.
But, I mean, it-- But he
gets to be the final judge.
He is the say.
He, he is.
He will have the last say.
He had the first say, and
he will have the last.
Yes, he will.
And we need to work on letting
him have the current say as well.
Yes.
Like, that I think is
something to take away too.
Didn't you, like, the very first
time you spoke to God, what'd he say?
Oh, it'll be all right
It'll be okay to you Yes.
And that I put that in that poem.
Yeah.
Like he, he said, he prophesied
to you, "It's going to be okay."
And, you know, in language,
you, you put words on a level.
Yeah.
And I'm thinking, you know, I tell
the kids, "Let's word up," you know.
Mm-hmm.
And the word okay may not be as
strong of a word as like fantastic
or whatever, but to me, if Jesus
himself is telling me it's gonna be
okay, that's all I need, you know?
Yeah.
Right.
You know, that's a- And it's interesting-
⦠strong enough word ⦠you know,
it was a future tense, you know.
Oh, yes.
"It's gonna be okay."
Yes.
Yeah.
I think that's a great prophecy-
Yes ⦠that he gave the first time
he talked to you, prophesied to you.
Well, and okay is also an ambiguous word.
It can mean fantastic.
I love it.
It can mean something- Oh my gosh.
She's smarty pants.
Oh, I just love it.
Love it.
Thanks.
But I mean, itâ¦
Also, you were a child.
You're a child, and he
spoke to you like a child.
And so he spoke on your level.
He did.
You know?
And he spoke in a way that it,
it meant something to you at that
time, and it's something that you
could carry and make applicable to
you at every point- That's right
along your journey.
And I will always look back to that.
Mm-hmm.
Even on Judgment Day.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
I can have that blessed
assurance all the way to the end.
Yep.
'Cause he spoke to me, my heart.
Yes, he did.
And, uh, he spelled my name right.
Yes, he did.
Yes, he did.
Yes, he does.
Aw.
Oh, that's such aâ¦
Man, that was good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just- And I think it really is something
that is going to resonate with people.
Yeah.
I hope so.
I think it's something
people need to hear.
There are a lot of people who are
estranged from family members,
children, parents, whomever.
Yeah.
And I think that it is going to be
hopeful- Mm-hmm ⦠to them, and also
to let them know that this isn't just
something that they are carrying.
This isn't something that is
shameful and hurtful that are, is
just that- I had a sense- You know?
⦠of shame.
I, you know, our church is so big,
and it's not like, you know, and I
love these little small churches.
"Oh, well, you play for my grandma."
Ah.
You know, I love it.
But, um, but my small group is, like,
the worship team and, uh, the choir.
Mm-hmm.
And I remember when the first moment
of silence came, and I did not wanna
say- Yeah ⦠what I was going through.
They, at the end of, uh, all the
practices, they'll say, um, Miss
Sherry did and Caitlin does, like,
"Anybody have a prayer request?"
I would raise my hand, but it
would be an unspoken, you know?
Yeah.
And then finally, God said, "You need
to share your burdens with your people."
Yeah.
And I said it one day.
We're not supposed to do this alone.
Yeah.
After I lowered my pride flag in
many ways, um, I feel like a lot of
prayers went into all of this, and I'm-
Mm-hmm ⦠so thankful for my- Yeah.
Mm-hmm ⦠you know, my family, my
church family and, and, uh, everyone.
It also lets people know what they're
not sharing, they're not alone, you know?
Right.
Like when they hear other
people- Right ⦠okay, well.
Oh, I felt so alone.
I felt like I was- Yeah ⦠the only
parent going through estrangement.
And I had seen other family members
that had mother-daughter relationships
that were harsh and hard, and I
thought, you know I don't think that
will ever happen to me because- Yeah
you know, I, I try to get along
with everybody and blah, blah, blah.
But, you know, it's gonna hit if-
Yeah ⦠it, it, it just happens
because that's the area that I
think Satan likes to tear apart.
Yes.
He wants to hit those relationships.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, the two commandments that
the whole thing- Mm-hmm ⦠is
centered on is love God, love others.
And- Yep ⦠if you can't
love your family, you know?
Right.
You can't get along with your family.
And, you know, just think of what he chose
to walk away from, the best relationship.
So he doesn't want anybody to have one.
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
You know?
Yeah.
So- So- And hisâ¦
Think about it.
I mean, the first sin was pride.
Yeah.
So everybody hadâ¦
And guess what?
Oh, that brings me to this.
Let me pull out this.
This was just yesterday.
I promise I'm, I will
not talk for all day.
It's okay.
No, it's okay.
Once you getâ¦
I'm real nervous at first, but once
you get me going- ⦠I warm up.
Okay.
Um, this was yesterday and, um, a student
had given me this little book and- Aw
it's very short, and I
won't read even all that.
But the title, "A Father's Pride."
Hmm.
I thought, "God."
And when he does things like that,
I look up and I just smile at him.
I go, "You're so cute and you'reâ¦
I just love you.
You're so cool."
And, uh, heâ¦
it said, "Godâ¦"
Oh, here's my eyes again.
Same girl.
That's why I got contacts.
"God is being patient with you.
He does not want anyone to be lost.
Um, but he wants all people to change
their hearts and lives," 2 Peter 3:9.
You know, he just gives me
these little bits and pieces of
things that I need, you know?
To, to, to do the things I need to do.
I was, I was nervous.
I knew I would warm up after I got here,
but I've heard Brandon say it, I've heard,
um, Craig say it on all these podcasts.
If you're thinking, you know, if, if
you guys have been asked by Jill and
Carrie to- Jill and Carrie ⦠I love it.
Yep.
Don't, don't try to cancel like I did.
You don't, you don't know that I
did that in my mind, but I did.
I tried to cancel like three times.
Yeah.
Matter of fact, last night,
this is so funny too.
Um, you know how the dentist or the, like
Nikki, they'll send you a, a thing- Yes.
like the day before- Mm-hmm.
⦠to confirm- Uh-huh ⦠what you're doing?
And I'm like, "I'm not getting anymore.
Maybe, maybe this is not gonna happen."
And so 10 o'clock last night- All
day I thought, "I need to text her.
I need to text her."
10 o'clock.
Yeah.
There's Kerrye.
I was like, "This is so late.
I feel so bad."
I was like, "Oh, there it is."
And then I was likeâ¦
And I was gonna show up in the
wrong place, and so- I know ⦠that
would've been the perfect scenario.
You know, I was gonna be over there.
No one's there.
Okay.
Oh.
See ya.
I'm gonna go enjoy my 17th birthday.
Well, thank goodness we were to
track you down and brought you here.
100%.
Yeah.
I appreciate it It's, it's
been so good, like- Mm-hmm
I think a, a lot of people
are gonna be blessed by this.
I hope so.
I do too.
And encouraged andâ¦
And I pray that I didn't say anything
that would offend my girls and-
You got time to think about it.
I-- Yeah.
And you can, you can like go over
what you talked with her about and,
and if she's uncomfortable about
anything- We'll take this part out
we'll take it out.
Um, but I do wanna tell you, and you
can tell her about this part, and if she
doesn't want it in here, I'll take it out.
But I f- I just can't get it
out of my head that like you had
the opportunity to be, to have a
surface level relationship with her.
Mm-hmm.
But through all of this, you
now have a, an authentic, true,
deep relationship with her.
Yes, ma'am.
With all of the- Continuing to grow.
Yes ⦠exactly, with all of the
flaws and recognizing on both sides,
like we don't have it all together.
We're not, neither one of us are
pretending to be perfect, but
we love each other despite that.
And, and that to me,
that's what it's all about.
Like, I don't, I don't wanna have a
relationship that I have to pretend for,
or that I know someone else is pretending.
It's exhausting.
Right.
It is exhausting.
It really is.
And I, I don't even know that
we recognize that all the time.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
Like I think it's, I don't know,
maybe it's just me, but I get
really good at masking with people.
Well, you have to sometimes.
You have to.
Yeah.
But those aren't deep relationships.
Exactly.
Right.
But you wanted a deep
relationship with her.
For sure.
And so like when she asked you to go to
therapy and you like kinda balked at that.
Uh-huh.
I think that that was part of stripping
away your mask- Mm-hmm ⦠with her.
Right.
And I, I think that it's just, I'm just
so proud of you- Yeah ⦠for doing it.
I'm proud of her too.
Yeah.
Like- And I'm really proud of her for,
for saying to you, "This is what I need."
Mm-hmm.
And kinda holding out, like, "This
is important to me," and I, and
trusting you that it will happen.
It will.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it has gotten deeper and-
Yeah ⦠I don't want just a surface
relationship with my children.
Exactly.
I want it to go as deep as possible.
Exactly.
And that's where you're going.
And God heard the, that
prayer, and He's like, "Okay.
It's what you want, it's
what you're gonna get."
Yep.
I love it.
You know?
No matter how painful
the process is sometimes.
Yeah.
So- We're figuring it out ⦠He
reminds me a lot of times, like, "You
asked for the impossible with this, and
I'm trying to do it, and then you're
griping 'cause it's taking a long time."
Mm-hmm.
You know?
It's like, "Okay.
Okay.
All right."
It takes time.
Yeah, like, "You wanted all these
little details, Kerrye, and I'm trying."
Right.
Or not trying, I'm doing it.
Yeah.
"You have to be patient."
So I don't like it when he does that.
You guys may have experienced
some of this, I don't know.
And, and it's not, you know- Yeah.
We think it's a second
point to talk about.
It really is- It is.
We already talked about,
yeah ⦠because you don't want
to stir up something, you know?
Right.
Mm-hmm.
It's like, ugh.
It takes a lot of courage
to- It does ⦠share.
Yep.
So, but yeah.
You didâ¦
It was a great, I- Um- I love it.
Yeah.
Great time.
Thank you.
I'm really pleased.
So- Yeah.
What is the Bible story that you would
like to go back and witness real time?
Well, I know the obvious one would
be the prodigal son, but since I'm
getting to live that in real life- Yeah.
I, I'm, I'm really excited about that.
But, um, I was thinking about that 'cause
you, you always tell the people- Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm ⦠um, dry bones.
Oh.
Yes.
I thought about that the other day.
It kind of sounds like-
Yeah ⦠uh, morbid, but no.
No.
It's life.
It'll be fascinating.
But I can tell you that in the middle of
all that pain, all I could visualize were,
were these bones coming back to life.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Because it really did feel like a
dirt, dead, dirty, dusty, dry death.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
With no possibility of resurrection.
Right.
Yeah.
And when God comes in and shows his
power, and it only takes a drop.
I mean- Oh my word, and
then all these bones and oh.
Yeah.
Girl, preach.
Whoo.
She's gonna preach.
You and me will run away.
Holy Spirit.
But yeah.
Yeah.
Can you imagine the sound of that?
Like- Oh, goodness ⦠that's
what I would wanna experience.
All around.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a good one.
So resurrect everything-
Yeah ⦠that's good, everything
that's godly, just come alive.
Yeah.
Jesus' name.
Yes.
And so good.
Okay.
Well, I'm so glad that you came
on, and I know you have many
more chapters to share with us.
Oh, yes.
Mm-hmm.
But this was great.
This was really, really good.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you.
And thank you so much, Sky,
for allowing her to be- Yes.
And really- ⦠here ⦠you're,
you're in Arkansas.
Russellville, come on.
She said she would.
I mean, listen- She said, "I
would love to have her here."
I'm telling you, I feel like
we need to start focusing a
little bit on how to do dial-in.
Oh.
Oh.
That might be- Yeah.
That might be something we do.
That's a, that's a you thing, Jill.
Yeah, that's a, that's a Ben thing.
That's a hey can - You figure, can
you figure this out for me, honey?
Really?
See if you can do it.
That'd be cool.
She, I think she'd be down for it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She certainly can, can
hold a good conversation.
She has- Yeah ⦠like good articulation.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, I was, I was so nervous.
I was thinking, "I need to
listen to some of these real time
articu-articulation so that Iâ¦"
We want people to be themself, for sure.
Yeah.
That's right.
So yeah.
Yeah.
So, all right.
Well- Okay, till next time.
Yep.
All right.
Thank you guys.
See you later.
Thank you.
Bye.
Bye.