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A conversation about cars, trucks, tugs and other machines of transport that flows like an ADHD fever dream, hosted by Hoonigan co-founder and 321 Action Action director Brian Scotto. Enjoy, it’s gonna be a bizarre ride.
S3 E19 Audio
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[00:00:00] What's up everybody? Welcome back. It is another episode of Firing Order, brought to you by Vyper Industrial. This is the show where we get into extremely nuanced arguments about random rankings of things in the car world, and we try to stay friends through the end. Today we've got my co-conspirator Ron Zaras, as well as Grid Life co-founder Chris Stewart, to rank the top five budget Track Day cars.
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I like it. You boys ready for this? I'm ready. Yeah. Ready? I'm ready. Let's do it. You don't look as ready as the two of us. We have. Yeah. 'cause y'all got notebooks like every time. Like, and they're not just notebooks, they're gridded notebooks. And I'm not gonna make the same joke though. Chris is about the grid life.
Yeah. That's why he's gonna made it anyway. You made it anyway. The one dude at the table who's not a dad. That's right. Just ripping dad jokes that he's trying to fit in. That I know of. That I know of. Yeah. Look, before we get into this, like Ron and I just enjoy the like, artistry of debate and just argument.
So like we're here for that purpose alone. But like, you actually like run like race series. Yes. Like you, like this is your profession. We're maybe spectators on it. Yeah. I mean, uh, I'm definitely deep, deep in the weeds. Yeah. I mean, I said it in the intro, but for those who don't know, what, what have you been doing for the past decade of your life?
So I am Chris Stewart and [00:03:00] I am the founder of Grid Life. So I've been, uh, facilitating track time in competition and other forms. In a variety of, of places all over the country for the last 10 years. I like that. You, you used the word facilitating. I think when you use it, you have to follow it with like, I've been facilitating bad decisions.
Yeah. I, I'm, I'm, I mean, I'm a behind the curtain kind of guy, so providing the arena I've been, I've been puppeteering, you know, that kind of puppeteering the environment for, uh, competition and, and track day culture to happen. Right. And you, I think that's a super interesting thing too, because your passion is in racing and track cars and all that.
And you could see that because grid life didn't really have to be that. Right? Like the combo of a music festival and like a drift event and just time attack is cool, but you guys have much more than just time attack, right? Oh, I had told him so many times that he would be so much more successful if he cared less about racing.
Well, sure, sure. Well, but I, but I love the fact that you, you make that happen and the people that are there are like lifelong fans because of that. Yeah. I mean, it follows my own journey, right? So like [00:04:00] I, you know, I had a, I had a C Rx, I like got sick, started to get into like, you know, kind of the track inspired builds and then turned it into like actually a track car.
And that was my journey. So like good life's like built around my automotive story, you know, uh, for the most part because that's really cool. Yeah. And one of the cool things I think now is like, you've actually offered a lot of other series for people to build cars for come compete, right? You guys started with time attack.
Yep. But then you've expanded and like talk about like what are some of the series you've got going on? Yeah. So, so we've got, um. Yeah, we've got, we've got a ton now. So like time attack is the bread and butter. Yep. That's the core. Right. So that's seven classes. Uh, you know, um, so club sc, club tr all that kind of moving up.
Mm-hmm. So you can build like kind of any car that you like. Yeah. Any car that you love and find like a place for, it's the run what you wrong? And there's a category that's awesome and there's a category for it. It's become like wildly competitive. So people have like, figured out, like they're, they're, they're math in the rule book and like, it's, it's real, right?
Sure. So it's, it's, it's a pretty professional grassroots [00:05:00] series at this point, you know, but outside of that, so, uh, we've got A-G-L-T-C, so that's a grid, like touring car, so that's a 12 and a half to one power to weight ratio kind of math rule book. Mm-hmm. And that's wheel to wheel racing. So first to the finish line.
Yeah. You know, so, uh, where time attack is like, you're, you're, you're kind of, you're competing for the, the fastest lap, right? Yeah. Yep. Um, and then newest series, like kind of in that, uh, you know, portfolio of things from US is GLGT. So GLGT, uh, is, uh, eight and a half to one. So faster, same, same structure.
Interesting. Same run, what you, you know, same build the car you love, um, but faster, right? Mm-hmm. So, and that runs in the same format as GLTC. Um, you know, and then we have the, the Rush series. So Rush is a really cool kind of spec racer. Um, and that, that runs similar too, right? So like, uh, that's, that's in, in the series as well.
What's the spec. So they're, they're factory built cars. Have you seen the Rush cars? Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So they're like, Nate Hamilton grant, like [00:06:00] all those guys have been racing those things. That's cool. Yep. Yeah, so that's our only spec, uh, series. That's cool. You know, so the FIT thing wasn't really a spec series, it was just that fit was the most for that class or whatever.
That was the Honda Fit Club Club sc, yeah. Right, right. Fit was just the, like, the best car in that was. So it made it look like, was it, made it look like it was a fit spec series. So, so, right. So it started as spec fit. Right. And that was kind of a joke. Oh, so it did start as spec fit, but not really. It was a joke title.
Right. Okay. So the reason that, that even became a part of Grid Life, right. So like, I always make the comment like, what is, what does Grid Life do? It does what the community wants, right? So like, we build things, you know, like we built, we built it together with the drivers and with the community, right? So like a lot of the classes and a lot of the things.
Are crafted with the, the thinking of like what, what the community wants, what, what they're doing already. Right. So the behavior that, that spawned, uh, what was Spec fit, which then became Sunday Cup is now, uh, club sc, which stands for Club Sunday Cup or Club Slow Car. Yeah. Which is like the [00:07:00] Grand Charisma Classic.
Yeah. However you wanna level race. It's because a lot of our instructors, when we were doing more, when we had more track day type stuff in Grid Life, when their race cars broke, they brought their dailies. Yo, I love that. And, and they're not, they're not gonna not shred 'em. You know, that's like the birth of the Dodgy box.
I say, that's dodgy. They would say idea. They all happen to have motorcycle breaks, pound the van. So then they were all just like ripping their fits. And then they started, you know, going bumper to, you know, like nose to bumper. I love that. Cool. You know, in the advanced session, you know, with these slow cars.
And that's how d that's how diesel truck racing started as well, was like, guys would go drag racing, they'd blow their car up, but like, they would be like, all right, I'm pull out my Cummins and run my Cummins down the hill and I'll race my buddy who brought his Cummins. And then all of a sudden they're running.
Like, he mean, and there's obviously like B spec, uh, you know, and that stuff that comes from, you know, kind of the SECA club world and, and, and those types of things. But like, in our, in our environment, like Fitz became popular because like, that's what started it. It's just like, my track day car is broken.
Um, you know, I'm just gonna rip this daily. Hmm. You know? And what [00:08:00] I really like about what you guys are doing, I, I took a look at one of your rule books last night just to like refresh and, uh, it, it's, you have such specifics like a Power B width. Factor. Yeah. That takes percentages away, but then like six lines later is like, your car has to look cool.
Yeah. Like the cooler your car looks, the more camera time you'll get. Yeah. And I'm like, yo, this rule book is, I didn't know sick, didn't know. So the two of us, like Ron and I have had the conversation about one of the big issues that rally racing has, and I'm about to just say this in the public, is it's got an aesthetic problem.
Like very few track track days too. Very few rally cars look cool. Yeah. Which means that you're less likely to take a photo of 'em. Yeah. And that photo end up somewhere, because you have a lot of guys that get in there and like, they're like, I just care about performance and I respect that. Well, a lot of that stuff is like the, the community will, will, like, racer's gonna gonna race.
Absolutely. You know, so like a lot of those rules like come from like, yo, we really gotta prevent these, these friends from like, lemme transl, lemme transl, lemme translate that racers are gonna cheat. [00:09:00] Yeah, yeah. Is what he wants to say. Yeah. Because you will push the limit until you can't anymore. No, a hundred percent.
Right. And they will, they will, uh, they will, they will credit card race themselves to death. Sure. And they will, they will get in the mist and it will ruin their soul. Yeah. You know, so. Absolutely. And it'll ruin friendships and it'll ruin the community. So you're preserving souls. Yeah. So it's like, it's, there's like a, there's like some defensive behavior in that too, right?
Yeah. Like. We want people to be able to be in this for, uh, a good time and a long time. Sure. You know, and they'll burn themselves out if you like, allow them to, and it's like, it's really hard. I mean, Adam can talk about this. I don't sit in that side of the house. Oh, okay. As much, I mean, I like contribute to it, but I don't write the rules.
Right. Like, okay. I, I write the, the culture, you know, of like what the, what, what it supposed to do. It, it is a, thank it is a thankless position. Very much so. When we did big time, when we did Jim Kana grid Yeah. I, we dealt with a lot of that. 'cause people just, you know, they want to be competitive and they wanna find loopholes and Yeah.
For some people in the sport, finding the loophole is the fun part. Yeah. Right. Like for the person [00:10:00] who's helping build a car or whatever, like that's, you know, that's the point. Yeah. And so how many years have you been doing grid life? So, uh, I'm Grid Life started in 2014. Okay. Officially, right. So a, a long time, you know, decade plus 12 years, so around, so you have 12 years worth of info of cars on track.
Yes, I do. I have that data. I looked at it, right. I got, that's crazy. I got, I got bar graphs, I got circle charts. Uh, I got, I got those things. I know. So you're, I know, I know what people are doing. You're pretty qualified. You're more qualified than we are. So he's, so he's bringing data metrics. He probably has a spreadsheet.
Real numbers. I'm gonna tell you what you're up against. You are up against two guys who have spent the past 20 some odd years working in and around motor sports with no time to really do their own being in motorsport. Yeah. But bench racing the shit out of a potential marketplace by Yeah. As to how we're gonna next year's, the year we're gonna build that car, we're gonna go compete probably in grid life.
Yeah. So I have a lot of research done at [00:11:00] one o'clock in the morning. Sure. Yeah. Of what would be the perfect, we have many dreams. We have many dreams, not about time. So we're fueled on dreams. You're fueled on, on data math or something. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, well, pr i, I call it practicality. All right. If you've already forgotten why we're here, we are here to debate the top five budget track day cars.
And I think what we need to do right now is set up sort of the rules and the stipulations for, for what this is. So first up. We have is the price. So the base car has to be bought for $15,000. And when I say base car, that means that the vehicle runs drives, you can go purchase it and you can drive it home.
And it also has to be readily available in the United States, meaning. It could be a car that's import, but like you have to be able to easily find it. It can't be like, there's only been like 15 of them imported into the us That doesn't work. Um, what were some of the other things we talked about? Do you remember?
Ice cream test? Yeah. Ooh, this one's really important. Yeah, the cream test. So explain the ice cream test. Yeah. So the ice cream test is, you have to be able to take a [00:12:00] friend, a significant other, your spouse to get ice cream in it right after, after the tractor. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so it was one of the rules where I talk about rules for the community like that end up in our rule set, uh, it's called the ice cream test.
So in the Sunday, you know, Sunday cup, uh, club, sc class, uh, you, if you win that class, you have to, you, you actually have to go get ice cream. That's so sick. Like you have to go get ice cream and you have to bring someone with you. And like, if you can't do that in your car, then that, yeah. Then that car can't win.
Yeah. It means you stripped it out too much. It means it doesn't have a seat, you know, like whatever. Because we also discussed, in order for this to be a proper budget car, you have to drive it to the track. That's right. Yeah. Because one, owning a truck, also owning a trailer and having a parking for that, there's no budget at all.
No. And even though if you have the cheapest truck and cheapest trailer, it's not easy to, I I I think it's a very common situation where you're just starting out, you're super into cars, but your daily driver's your only car. That's right. Your daily driver is gonna be whatever you also have fun in. Yeah.
So that's kind of the idea. So it needs to be able to, uh, serve that purpose. Right? Yeah. You know, your day, it, it, it, it's your [00:13:00] daily and you, you take it to the track and it has to take the stuff that you need, right? Yes. You know, for the track. Yep. The 15 K does not include mods, but as we discussed, like mods have to be within reason.
Yeah. It can't be a car that requires a turbocharger. Yeah. Or is like, I need to back half the whole car. Yeah. Right. And to redo all the suspension or two, frame it like none of that works. It has to, yeah. Like I would say even the basic car and silhouette wheels, tire suspension breaks, those are the only mods you need for a track day.
That's right. Period. But they are required on mostly any street car ever made. Maybe. Maybe transmission. There are some car. You don't think so? No, no, no. That's made too far. I like yes. Beneficial. Right, right. But in order to get, in order to get on the track, actually more from a reliability part. And actually in order to get on the track, you just need to make sure, like you don't even need good tires.
I don't think. You just need tires that don't, that aren't deam. Yeah. That aren't gonna contaminate. But brakes. Okay. Brakes. You need brakes and fluid. Brakes and fluid. Yeah. Brakes and fluid. You know, like so, so arguably you should be able to go. Onto Marketplace right now. Right now, yes. Buy the car. Yeah.
This [00:14:00] moment. Go pick it up. And within one week, as long as you had the money set aside. Yeah. Go to a track day. That's right. That's fair. I like that. Right? I like it. That works. Yep, that works. By the way, if you're interested in how we came up with all of this, uh, we did like another half hour. Pre-show to the show to discuss this on Patreon.
Because I think we realized in the last firing order that I did with Mickey and Nads on the top JDM tuners, we probably should have had a conversation first. Well, you did, but it's Nads so you guys talked about everything on the planet. Yeah. We need, we need to put in some more limitations. Yeah. Yeah. And things like that.
So, um, and then I think, uh, one of the other ones I think is the most important is that this is not about being competitive. It's about like bang for the buck, dude. For sure. Right. Smiles per mile. Like it doesn't matter if you go to the track day and you get lapped on everyone. Yeah. As long as like you are having a really good time and you get to keep driving and you get a lot of seat time.
I, I've seen it with a couple of friends of ours. Like the on a track day alone, just chasing the fastest time forever [00:15:00] faster than anybody else. That's a race to the bottom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you're just gonna make a time attack car on accident. Yeah. Right? Yes. Whereas if you build something that just brings you joy and then you could develop yourself as driver, you call that again as the driver, uh, the track day World championship.
Yeah. There's no prizes. There's no prizes. There's prizes. Actually it's the opposite. 'cause you're more likely to blow your car up. Absolutely. Like destroy your kid kid's college savings where you focus on the driving. Yeah. Focus on like getting better with you and with the car. Something else too. On a regular track day.
Uh, no one's watching you drive. Nobody, nobody's paying attention. Nobody to the heater lap. You just had maybe your girlfriend that you dragged out there, maybe. Yeah, maybe, maybe like one old dude who's like up there smoking a cigarette who like used to race 20 years ago, who would smoke the shit outta you.
He's not, he's not in a fox body. Not he does, but he doesn't think any of you are good. Yeah. He hates all of you. Yeah. He hates all of you. He, he's pissed that you're here, you know, like he misses when this was a circle track. Yeah. He's not, he's not. He doesn't care. He doesn't care. So that being said, like the point of [00:16:00] having a good day on track is to go there.
Have fun. Yeah. Get some that's fun for you and be able to drive the car home. That's right. Which is a good day. Yes. That's a good day. It's a really good day. Alright, so without further ado, you're gonna start. So for a reminder of everyone how we do this, everybody is, has brought their list of five in no particular order.
We will battle to take two of their cars, move them to the next level. We then move all the way through at the end. That leaves us with six cars. Obviously we're trying to get five, one will have to die. But we also realized that there are probably a lot of blind spots. So the group, uh, of all of you who are on Patreon have given us a whole list of cars that we will then review before we make our final decisions to see if there's any swap outs.
And then we will argue to the death for the final five. And he wants 'em to all be behind us anyway. Maybe not, maybe not, maybe, maybe not, maybe not, maybe not, not maybe some surprises, maybe not. So in no particular order. You may start as the guest. Okay. Yeah. So bring us your, bring us your list. Yeah. So I brought a, a, like a, a real practical approach, you know, to this, right?
Like, I've seen a lot of cars on [00:17:00] track. I've seen, uh, you know, a lot of, uh, of a lot of fun hat. I've seen a lot of heartbreak. Mm. You know, so much heartbreak, you know. And also, um, I'm from the Midwest, right? So like thinking about a car that like fits the, like, this has gotta be my car, you know, like this is regionality Regional is really good employer.
Yeah. Because like, if you live at a track that's really fast, a slow car that's really technical may not be as much. Yeah. That's not gonna be big. Well, even, even outside of like, I mean, we're, we're blessed where we have like, we do have a lot of tracks. You got some variety in a, in a five hour rip, you know, so, uh, starting off the list.
Okay. Uh, civic si. Okay, got it. So that's, that's 2006 to 2011. Right. Okay. So, um, uh, next, uh, the Scion twins. Yes. Oh, sure. So, you know, classic. So, um, you know, and, and you can, and this would be, this would be Gen one 'cause you really can't, you can get a Scion for that price point for sure. Or, and you could still get a BRZ Gen one, no brc, but gen two is outside, let's like salvage stuff.
When I say Scion twins, it's like the Scion era of either of those. [00:18:00] Okay, that makes sense. Before Toyota got me, which is effectively like, uh, 13 to 16, right? Right. 16. Cut off of that, um, three 50 Z. Okay. So, uh, talk about reliability, talk about availability. It not, not a, not a car that I like gravitate towards.
Yeah, it's, but it's also got a pretty heavy drift and takeover tax on it right now, but we'll get to, we'll, we'll get to that I guess. I guess I'm aware we'll get to that. I unaware. Yeah. Um, uh, Fiesta St. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Un unconsidered there. It's, it's not unconsidered. It was probably on both of our lists.
It's just Well in the data. Yep. Small sliver. Small sliver in the pie chart and um, uh, the second gen Honda Fit. Nice. Which is, which is probably my expected choice. That was your expected choice. Yeah. I figured you, you, you'd tell me with that. I mean, that's way under budget, right? So like with that car, you could get the car, you could get all the parts and you can run track days for four years for that budget.
So there's something to be said about the longevity. [00:19:00] Yeah. So I'm gonna go ahead and say right off the bat, like we could probably just stop the show and a lot of people would say, this is a good list. No way. No, no. I think like, there's a lot of people that I think like this is a list that, not saying your list is bad.
I had 12 cards on my list. I had to pair it down. Okay. So I wanna start with a car that I have zero experience in, but I know the lore of it being a very good track car, which is the si. Mm. So like, just give, why is that car on the list? Because it's something that's just like, not, it's not on my radar at all.
At is that like, I love like 90 civics. Yeah. And like I understand like why the new, like, is that the turbo motor? Like civic type R is cool. Mm-hmm. No, so that's the, so it's still K. Yeah. So, um, I mean if you wanna get into like, kind of some of the nuance, right? Like, so, um, civic was kind of the reemergence, you know, of what the, you know, like Honda's heritage, you know, like this, the, so six skin is the si that, you know.
Right, right. Like and then the one before that was like the EP three or was that Yeah, so the EP was cool, like a little bit like, eh, that's a little oddball. Had the [00:20:00] shifter on the dash, right? Yeah. And then, you know, you get into, um, you know, kind of, uh, housing crisis era stuff, right? Mm-hmm. So not a lot of like real impactful refreshes at that particular point in time.
By the way, I have never heard an era of cars as the housing crisis ever. 2008. I get it, I get it. But I just like, if you remember that point in time where it's like, man, all the, all the enthusiast cars are going away, right? Oh, I know. It's the, because nobody was buying 'em. It's the rise of the crossover.
Think of how boring Toyota was, dude, for like 15 years. They had nothing Cool. And now they're one of the coolest brands. Yeah. We can call it the rise of the crossover. Yep. So all so civic Si uh, yeah. Uh, K 20 Z three. Right? Okay. So, you know, motor K series, great motor, right? A lot of support. Um, yeah, a lot of support.
Um, limited slip, you know, that's nice. From, from the factory. From the factory. That is nice. Yeah, from the factory. I think my whole list. His limited slip from the factory, which is a really underrated thing. By the way, before, before when I said the one thing you might have to change is like transmission stuff, he's like, Nope, not on my list, is what he meant to say.
Because [00:21:00] in my head I was like, you know, something's like, like an LSDD can really change the fit doesn't, the fit doesn't have one. But like that, that's, it doesn't really make enough power to need one. Uh, it's not, I have you driven a lot of front wheel drive cars. Uh, LSD really can change a problem. It really, really, really, I mean, I guess I've only ever driven LSD front wheel drive cars on track.
Yeah. It really can make a difference because otherwise you like, you'd literally just put no power because like, I guess I take for granted you just spin the, the Elantra, the Elantra and I race LA or two years ago had a really good diff Yeah. That's what makes that car in a way. The the front wheel drive diff on that thing Yeah.
Is super developed. It Yeah. It's point and shoot. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's point and shoot. So, so just with any, with any Honda product, particularly like the Civic si, right? It's just, it's just, it just checks all the boxes. It's not particularly like flashy or like overly exciting, you know, or any of those things.
It just, and what can they be had for right now? What's the price point on 'em? Like eight. Eight? Okay. Yeah. Like, yeah. So you've got some room to spend, then you've got some room to spend, right? You can, you can, you can get a really good example. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for, for more you could [00:22:00] get, you know, like, so they're ranged, right?
But like they, you know, but you can find them around I think for like, you know, 8, 8, 9, um, you know, in that, in that era. Right. But it's just like, uh, great Daily, mm, you know, great aftermarket support, you know. Uh, and um, you know, just as far as like. Livability plus being able to throw it around, you know, and not worry about it.
Right. Like you can beat the shit out of it, you know? And, and the other nice thing is if you do put it off, actually this isn't even a factor that, and there's probably a buddy I thought of. Yeah. That can, there's probably, and you could go to any junkyard and get a door, a windshield and a panel and whatever, people, cars.
Because if you have a car that you're scared to track day. Yes. Because if you go into a wall, you're gonna drive slower, you're not gonna drive as well. Right. Where if you're eating that thing into corners, like front wheel drive car, especially like big commitment cars and you're not super afraid of crunching a taillight or a fender or whatever, that's, that changes you're driving isn't, it, isn't precious.
I have never seen you be afraid to crash anything I've ever [00:23:00] seen you drive. Are they all that I'm also an idiot? Are are they all things that you own? Some of them, yeah. Some of 'em of, yeah. Like, I'm missing, I'm missing pieces up here. It's, it's, it's not, it's not precious. It's kind of the people's champ, right?
It's, it's got broad shoulders, it's blue collar. Totally. You know, from a track day perspective, I think. Yeah. You know, I like it. Alright, so the other one, we might as well just stay in the Honda theme is the fit, because I, I, to me, I feel like this is like the modern, um, Miata and, and, and here, and here's my thing on this.
Okay. On the whole Miata piece. All right. Is that like hands down and, we'll, we'll, I don't know. Maybe is on someone's list. Everyone thinks it should be the answer, right? Like, I've seen that sticker like Mazda, the, the Miata is the answer. I also think one of the things that made the Miata so cool was that, and I was there when the car came out.
Like I remember when the car was new and my friend's mom got it. Um, was that it was sort of seen as like the hairdresser car, and then all of a sudden it became like one of the most race cars on the weekend. And it became this, like, if you made, if you were like a normal car person who didn't know [00:24:00] about racing and you made fun of the Miata, somebody would show up and be like, blah's faster than an nine 11 on track, blah, blah.
They would hit you with all the stuff, most race car on the weekend weekend wrong. And they're not, they're not wrong. Yeah. And they're not wrong. They're not wrong. And like, big shout out to like Dean Case and the guys over at Mazda, like when they were, they supported that in that era, the Miata did become the most tracked car on the weekend.
Yeah. And all this stuff. And, and it became this amazing car. But part of its heroic element is because it is slightly un the unexpected car. And I think the fit is like that new car that when someone looks at a fit, the average person doesn't go, wow, that could be a great race car. That is performance. No, it's like a micro minivan.
Yeah. So the fit, I think the fit is great because it's so unexpected as a, uh, as a good track car. And it's not necessarily the best track car, but it's the most fun that I've had in the last decade is driving a fit. Right. Because it eliminates, uh, one, uh, [00:25:00] it's, it's full, you know, full checkable, right? Yep.
Like, like full risk. 12 tenths every corner, 12 tenths 10 quarter. Ah, it's the best. It's the epitome of driving a slow car fast. Yes. Yeah. And, and the lake, uh, you know, I, uh. I have like a bit, you know, even though I'm like into tracking, there's like a bit, there's an anxiety to, to tracking, right? Yeah. Yeah.
You know, like every time you go out there, of course, right. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Especially if you approach it like kind of without ego. Yeah. Um, you know, and you, that goes away with that car, right? Mm-hmm. So you can, you can refine small details, you can work on your specifics, right? Yeah. And you can just like absolutely blast it.
There's really something to be said about that. Yeah. Number number three. Um, you no consumables zero. Because it's so lightweight. It j just, yeah. Once, it just doesn't go through one set of tires, 12 days, you know, like that's not how, that's like, maybe that's crazy. Right? Like, so, you know, just like true budget.
Yeah. And it's an excellent pickup truck, right. The amount of stuff that you can put in the back of a fit, you know, like you can also [00:26:00] sleep in it. You can also sleep in it. Yeah. Right. So like, you want, like one thing that, like you can get to the track. You can run the track all, all weekend. You can get home, you know, you can run the next track day.
You can have money left over and you can just keep sending it and you could make 'em look cool. You, you can make 'em look cool, right? Yeah. Like, so I mean, uh, uh, yeah. Sam Dueling, who, who is uh, runs our tech, um, uh, he, so he an example of like perfect fit lifestyle, right? He's got a first, first gen fit. The second gen fit is just a significantly more progressed in better car as a car because the fit didn't come to the States till oh six Okay.
Or something. But it was, but it existed from oh two. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So we got like a 4-year-old car. Do you remember when the car first came out? 'cause print mags were still a thing. Remember they did an entire mag on, like, that segment of car, like Super Street did like a spinoff? Yeah. Do you remember that?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because when that, when they, when that car first came out, it was de everyone thought it was cool because the Civic was getting fatter. Yes. And this felt more like the, the fit is 100% the [00:27:00] spiritual successor to the EF Hatch. They feel Yeah. The same on track. They feel the same on the street.
That's how I always feel about the one side. Yeah. You're really selling me. I'll see that. No, they, they do. It's just like, it's so much I get in, I get that's sick. My, uh, my, my son has a fit now, you know? Okay. So like, that's his first car. Yeah. And he And you like. God, it's such a blast. Love it. It's funny how you, I love it.
You have all those small cars that were popular in like Europe or in Asia that we never got here. Yeah. And then they started to bring them in and like that idea of like the spiritual successor, um, you know, of the car. 'cause you think the one series for me is closer to in E 30 or in E 36 and the modern, or like the M two is like the true S3 of these days.
Yeah. But also like for, for in like the Volkswagen side of things, like I had a Audi A one, which is like a car not sold in the US and it to me felt like a Mark three, even though it was like a 20,011. That's cool. That's why I loved it because even though it was a newer car, like the foot, they kind of escaped the bloat.
Yeah. And then you just realize that the only problem with new cars is they just got [00:28:00] too big. They're too big. They're too big. Two, they been too big. Alright, so Honda Fit, we we need to push through the list. Yeah. Three 50 Z. Where is that? Like top of your list? Bottom of your list. This is, this is data driven, right?
Like, so I don't, I uh. If I, if I look at something that like, has a lot of flexibility, you know, it, it's, it's rear wheel drive, right? So, 'cause that's a preference, right? Like I've, I've tracked front wheel drive cars, you know, for forever, you know, so, uh, you know, it's rear wheel drive, uh, right. VQ engine's got a ton of support, right.
You know, it's got, it's got huge support. It's got versatility, right? So like you enter into, you know, track day culture and want to move into drift culture, want to have longevity out of this vehicle for sure. Tons and tons of flexibility, you know? Um, it's, and people know how to make 'em less. Yeah. It's not, it's not as like, um, you know, it's unfortunately only available as a three speed, but the CO nine is just one of the weirdest transmissions to me.
I don't see, I don't have a, I don't have like, it has like a usable, like, I don't know. The power band is weird. Yeah. So like, I don't know. I know those ne nuances. I'm certain tracks. It could be pretty advantage. 'cause [00:29:00] you, it is some, yeah. For the power level areas it comes with, it's like, it's very long geared.
It's, it's not a sports car. Cumbersome as a package as like a C five or something like that. Right. So it like has a little bit more flexibility as like a, as like a real car, you know, like e every day, you know, and um, you know, and like swappable Japanese parts, right? Mm-hmm. So like, you know, still, still inexpensive and long to keep on the track and keep going and as long as you don't straight pipe it, it sounds good.
Yeah. Like, like I will go out there and say the stock VQ just sounds good. Sounds great. My, my mom had a three 50 Z she bought it brand new. Yeah. And like it was in manual. Great car. Sounds fun. Like it's actually, I actually fit fact factory. LSD. That's right. And depending on your factory Brandos. Yeah.
Alright. Um. I mean of, of his list. What, what, what do you, what would you, what would you push forward? What would I push forward? Yeah. I'm sold on the fit. Yeah. I am too, dude. I think the fit, I think the fit is an instant win. 'cause I think you, we need a car on this list that is that type of car, right? Talk about like the time attack classes, right?
You can [00:30:00] almost break 'em up by like, cost of operation. Right. And that's why Club SC exists as a class, because like the car is cheap. The cost of operating is cheap, so it's like cheap period. Fun period. For sure. You know, like, yeah. So Fit moves forward. Um, and I, I, my opinion is that the twins, we didn't get super deep on 'em, but uh, I think the twins move forward.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, because I didn't even ask questions about it because it's so good. Now. I will say Gen won. 40 less horsepower. Very underpowered. Which is, which is a lot in that car. Yeah. It's like losing 40 horsepower in that car and it's 60% less stiff than the newer gen. Mm-hmm. You can fix some of that, but not all of it.
Yeah. Um. 'cause it's chassis it gets more expensive to make it faster. Yeah. But like, so if you, if, and I'm just saying this, we have rules which is under 15 grand. Yeah. But if you're shopping a $13,000 FRS or like a later BRZ that is the newer gen, I would get the newer, newer one. Oh. Every time. But I don't think you can get a newer gen one for under 15.
Uh, [00:31:00] maybe like, like I tried, I tried last night. No you can't. Yeah, you can't. Yeah, you can't. They're 20 plus. Like I just had A-B-R-Z-A couple weeks ago just 'cause I wanted to drive it again. Yeah. 'cause we did the, the best driver's car. Mm-hmm. And it made the list on best driver's car pretty high up. And it was like, it was like, I just wanna go drive it again.
And then I went and did a like half day of canyons and I was like, yeah, this thing's great. It's just, it's just fun. Now what I will say, if you live anywhere that's in any kind of altitude, like if you are living in Utah and you wanna do track days Yeah. That thing makes like 16 avoids at all costs. Yeah.
Avoid it all. That's the first time I ever drove one and I thought it was broken. Right. I was like, this is, this can't be like something's wrong. Alright. So fit moves forward. Twins move forward. Um, there's other really good ones on that list, but maybe we'll get back to 'em. Alright, Ron? Yeah. Do you feel okay with those two moving forward?
I do, I do. I mean, IWI would like, uh, in between like the, if you could pick your two, what were your two? I'd get a fit, you know, I'd get a, I'd get a fit or, or, or a, or a G. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think so. Like, I, I put the, the Civic [00:32:00] I is like, actually the more balanced package of the two Hondas, right?
Like it has, it has more, but um, it's the fit just become cooler. You know? Mm-hmm. I love the Fit. When it came out and when, when Dan was running, when Danger, Dan was running the Fit. Uh, yeah. At Grid Life. He was like, he would call me and be like, dude, you need to get one of these. Yeah. Because he knows that I enjoy that.
Super lightweight, like I would prefer a lightweight car than a fast car. Yeah. Like I just enjoy the chocolate. I will also say that's a big factor that isn't in our rule set right now, but I think the fit being so accessible to your friends. Yeah. That you could convince your friend to get one. Yes. Even if they don't have a 15 K budget.
But I'm seeing out here, there's a movement of like, there's like a fit gang and they all go on track and they'll go door to door, bumper to bumper and it doesn't matter because the pressure's off so much fun. Right. And maybe I'm buying fit. Let's buy fit. It's buy fit. Let's, there's, there's no, there's no, there's no, uh, yeah.
It's, it's not precious. Yeah. I mean it's a big factor. And if we think about the journey of, of track day too, right? So like, I thought about this from the perspective of like, [00:33:00] I want a track car. I'm starting this. Yeah. You know? Um, so like, there's room to grow and you're not gonna like blow your budget.
You also, like, here's a weird thing. Like, like the, the ability to mob the fit is, is limited. It has a ceiling. Right. So you will reach the driving potential of that vehicle and then you will have to move on. And that's what you're supposed to do anyway. Sure. You know, otherwise you're gonna credit card race, but you still enjoy going and racing it.
Like if you move on, kept it, you'll always love your backup car. It's fun, it, it serves you. But moving from a fit to like a big boy car, you will wreck any other driver that just started in the Big boy car. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Momentum path. Absolutely. Yeah. Again, momentum. Yeah. The Miata of our time.
'cause the Miata. Was that alright? All right. What do you got? So, I actually have actually, and I wanna say the Miata of time, I also think the BRZ or the twins, whatever. Yeah. Is also the modern mi. Just, that's, that's gonna, that's gonna be the hero. It's the replacement for the Miata that's actually not as available anymore.
Easily. Yeah. It way Cool. Hit this with your list. Okay. I actually have two lists. I'll go through one right now. Two lists. You, I have one list. [00:34:00] I have the obvious list. You're gonna want this other one. You have a goblin list. I have the obvious list and a goblin list. Oh, okay. This is like things that nobody would think of, but I've seen on track and I'm like, we might have to save the goblin list for if we got that time, but let's go.
Let's go. All right. Uh, obvious list. C five Corvette. Um, you could still get 'em 10 to 15 K. It was on my list, but I'm not fighting you. I'm not fighting. You move through, move through. Okay. Acura, RSX type S. Okay. Uh, E 46, 3 30 ci, uh, Porsche Boxter s And I also had the fiesta st. I gonna start off by saying I've done a lot of research into the Boxter s Yeah.
And the number thing, number one thing that comes out is that that particular engine has oil, like star issues, oil cooling. Oh, interesting. Yeah. And it's a high maintenance response to it because like, yeah. And I forget what that is. It's like the M 96, M 97 engine, like it is notorious. [00:35:00] Now there will, there's also plenty of people if you just like anything on the internet.
Yes. If you wanna find. If you wanna find comfort in buying that car, someone will tell you that. Like they, you know, Accu, you know, Accu sump makes you know this, and you can get, you know, you can get this different pan for it, but write out the box. You're focusing on problems not driving. There's a chance that you're gonna boar score that thing.
Yeah. Because I, it's on the list because, uh, I, I think that's such an easy way to get into a Porsche on track. Yeah. Is really cool. Yeah, for sure. It's also, it is a fantastic driving car. Yeah. Like it handles really well. Yeah. The only reason it's never on any of my list is that it's a sub six one. Driver fit, like would Oh, sure.
You would be like at the bri with a helmet. Mm, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. It's a little tight. And they got a bit nerfed from the factory to not beat the nine 11. So Yeah. It's also the expensive hairdresser car. Like it definitely filled that space. Yeah. Of the, it's not, not that of the Miata, but, but the same, I think the Cayman's really cool looking.
It's weird just with the is cooler. Ca Cayman Cayman. You can't make the list. I, I looked at it. It's too expensive. Too [00:36:00] expensive. Too expensive. You can buy a boxer for like a dollar. You can buy a boxer Easy. You can buy, you can get them for like five grand. You can get 'em for five grand, fix your engine issues and then be on your mery way.
You can, you can get 'em, um, you know, and, and not fix your engine issues until the next track day for like 10. 10. Just get another one. Instead of, you could buy three. Just like take you, buy three box and make one good one. You know what, you know what box is back on the list? Box is back on the list. I like that concert.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, no, 'cause I, I looked at it too. 'cause obviously being a Porsche guy, I was like, you know, I was like, you know, the boxer, maybe I don't fit in it, but I, I've driven them. Yeah. Uncomfortably. But I've driven them. They're, I mean, I, there's an argument that the boxers are better handling car than the nine 11.
Sure. That you would argue the Cayman GT four is a better handling car. Yeah. Um, the same argument that people made when the 9 44 came in and practicality, it's more balanced, practicality, very low. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But women factor higher also when you're like at like a, you know, like a [00:37:00] neighborhood party.
Totally. Someone's like, Hey, like, do you race cars? You're like, yeah, I race a Porsche. I race a Honda Fig. Yeah. Yeah. Me and my buddies, we race a Honda. What's that? Is that like a motorcycle? Yeah. No, it's, oh, that's the scooter, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No. So C five vet, uh, what, what's your opinion on a C five vet?
Because I think like o over ator, right? Like its just, it's a sports car, right? Yeah. You know, like proper, right? Yeah. Uh, yeah. So, so C five Corvette not a, not a, not a bad answer for sure, right? Like, but also a high consumable. Yeah. High, high consumable, but like a, a lot of, a lot of range on it, right? Like, so you, you know, you can get a, a, a lot of life out of that car.
Yeah. And like, uh, overcook it, I mean, you can enter, uh, I guess in the time attack classes, you're kind of stuck to a couple, but, um, yeah. You know, but you can, you know, it's on the upper end, right? Like, I would definitely do sim time before getting in it on track for sure. Right. If the, if the, if there, if you're looking for like an expanding challenge that is associated with, with raw speed.
Yeah. Uh, [00:38:00] the C five is a really, really good choice. And you can stay with that car for a decade. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's pretty, it's pretty bulletproof. Yep. You know, like, uh, great gas mileage, the hatch is pretty good. Yep. Yeah. You could fit a lot, you could fit a set of tires in the back hatch.
It's decently comfortable as like a tour, you know? Yep. Yeah. Um, it hits a lot of those points and I would say I didn't even think about that factor, but if you've never driven on track, it's probably not a great idea to be in one. The one other one I would bring up on that is like, it is not an easily serviceable car.
I dunno if you remember the C five we had at Hoonigan certain things, but like doing a clutch job on our car doing a clutch is massive. It sucks. Yeah. Like without a lift. Like, it's not the like easy lift, it's not like something you can service on four jack stands That's fair. In your garage. Um, but it's a lot of fun.
Yeah, I do. It's a it's a good car. Yeah. Yeah. It's that one, that part. And there's always someone in the paddock with the C five and if you wanted to also go drifting, it's like pretty turnkey drift. Very much [00:39:00] so. Yeah. It's pretty good. So I wanna talk about the E 36, right? E 36 versus 46. Did you have E 46?
Oh, E 46 was on my list. And that, that's where the, the Z and 46 were, were flip flopping. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know enough about BMWs. Okay. Right. So like in general. Yeah. So like, but why and but I found that like E 36 is at least in the variance. Yeah. You know, are, are, are kind of riding the line. They're like going up in price.
So the E 30 sixes are very popular because a nostalgia thing, they look really cool. That's like the first M three. Anybody really remembers like the E 30 was like the older head kind of car. Yeah. It's arguably golden era euro. Yeah. It's, it's what's really hot right now and I think the E 46 is on its way there.
Um, the E 46 to me is like. A car that's got a lot more in it. So like I don't, you can't get into a E 36 M three, a decent one for 15 grand anymore. Right. The E 46 3 30 I is very close to an M three E 46 M. Yeah. I went through, I went through the same thing putting together my list and [00:40:00] it's like the E 46 has better engine options in the mid-level.
Yeah. Than the E 36 did. Yeah. Like the E 36 outside of the M three is like not as great and the E 36 just needs a lot more to be track viable, in my opinion. Like B bmw, I don't have a crazy amount of experience. Somebody might eviscerate me, but in my experience, the chassis needs more work. It needs more money.
Like it's not as fast where the 46 is super balanced, great engine options, great transmission. It does have all that issues of like tearing the subframe and the suspension, like minor fix all that stuff. Minor 46 is your choice. I heard 36. No, no. He said 46 is my choice. No, he, we aligned, but that's still explains it because the reason I didn't put it on my list is because I didn't feel confident in my familiarity with it.
Yeah. So the three 30 I is the data says that little number two. The other thing too, in good life, the other thing too at the 46 is that the 36 was still in an era where like dentists owned BMWs. Yeah, sure. The 46 was. You are like, you know, like the [00:41:00] person across the, like a normal person owned a 46 like that, like BMW kind of dropped down a little bit, sold a lot more cars, it got more accessible, there's more out there, there's more yards.
Um, I personally think that the 36 looks better. I kind of like how the 36 drives better. Um, but the 46 is, it's a, it's a lot of car for the money. It's of the only BMWs I've ever owned and you can get a three 30 I and the tens. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's a lot of car for 10 grand. Yep. Yeah. And like the basic engine's like pretty decent.
It's pretty stout. I mean, it's the reason why it has like replaced like at 3 28 pi, that's where you have to like really nerd out. You have to pick the Right. That's why three 30 is like very specific on there. Yep. Because that with suspension arms and transmission diff selection. What's the engine on that again?
That's the, uh, I think it's a 2.5 liter in line six. Like na. Right. Um, it's not quite the M three motor. It's not the, you know, S 54, but, and there's also a massive aftermarket for it. Huge. I mean there's so much stuff out there that ranges from like the, like [00:42:00] the guys who make swap kits and knuckles or whatever in the drift world.
All the way to like, full blown like actual race car people shit. Right. Totally. Like, like Turner. Turner Bimmer world. Yeah. Like garage stick, like anybody. And then all the guys in Europe who were not, we don't even think about it, who were like building real race car stuff. Alright. What else you got on here?
We got, uh, I wanna talk about the RSX. Yeah. So this is a car that has, now you brought it up for one of you guys brought it up for the best driver car. It was, it was on my list. It's on my list for many things. It's reappeared on this list. I think it's slept on. I think, uh, there's a lot of 'em and Nads brought it up the other day.
I think that si is the same car. Oh. Like, they're probably very similar basic, the same checks. Is it the same years? Is that the same time? Similar, yeah. Yeah, same time period. Uh, they're, they're hot swappable. Right. Those are the, that's the same, that's the same dude that has that. To me, to me it's a look thing.
Uh, because like, I really like, I, I love integras. Like integras are where my heart's at. It's basically, and that's the spiritual. Yeah, it's, and uh, and you can make 'em look really cool. I love them when they came out. I love them now. I, I, I brought [00:43:00] this conversation up with Nads. Nads actually said that like, he thinks it's like you're not missing much because I told, I said, I was like, do I need to go drive this car?
Because one, the Patreon list brought it up. You Andro, you and, um, Vinny both were like, yeah, this is a car to go drive. And it just is like not on my radar. Yeah. Yeah. When did it come out? 2003. Yep. So it was, uh, effectively like the, I must have driven this. I was a journalist during this era. You very well.
But yeah, it came out after the, uh, you know, the, um. Yeah, it was the end of DC two. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And then the RSX came out, and then that's when the EP Civic came out, and the RSX was the clear choice between those two. If you were a Honda enthusiast, for sure. Yeah. Hondas feel a certain way. It's a lot of that spirit ISN in there, right?
Yeah. You get into a, you know, a, a civic SI of any gen. You get into an RSX of any gen, you get into a CRV, you know? Mm-hmm. It feels like a Honda. That's funny. Right. You know, like, yeah. And what does that feel from a Honda guy? Um, it's just, it's just like a, a different level of like, like where you can hear the wind through all [00:44:00] the crevices of cars.
That, that the field, that's the field that, that strong. That's the, you like, man, I wonder how, I wonder how wonder I dead to my door panels. Yeah. Wonder, wonder how thin this, uh, this glass is. I mean, I think that's changed a lot. Like, uh, you know, in, in modern era. Modern, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In modern era.
But like, no, it's just, it's just a, it's just a, a steering feel and like, like kind of, you know, it's like I get into the NSX. And it feels like the CRX. Right. You know, like you, you just like, you know, it, it's like the same design language, the same, it's like really familiar Right. Like, you know, just, just all this like kind of, uh, nuance and like, you know, how connectedness, how it feels and how you're connected to it.
Yeah. You know, I get that when I get into like a 9 9 2 GT three RS, it feels just like a Volkswagen. Yeah, totally. Totally. Pretty much a bee. Yeah. Pretty much. A much a Beatle, it's a super Beatle, pretty much a beetle. So like, as far as like, 'cause because on my list, like, uh, the Civic would be, you know, I don't know.
Like it's, you have a connection to it. I fight for it because like if you, if one the data supports it, right? That's number one Honda, right? Like, you go to a [00:45:00] track day, you know, you're gonna see Hondas, you're gonna see a, a car in that lineage, right? Yeah. Because there's like parts from this RSX that can fix that car.
Mm-hmm. Vice versa. Same, same thing. Right. You know, and in racing too, like Honda dominates, I went and looked at the runoffs winners. Yeah. Uh, in the it, uh, category in 1986, Honda wins, you know, like, and every year. Every year. Yeah. Right. So just, just having like who won, who won an 85? I dunno, I didn't go back that far.
Back check. But anyway, we'll get back to that. Yeah, yeah, of course. Let, let's just write right ahead. I, I right now vote to move the E 46 forward a hundred percent. Like I just think that that's like a no-brainer. It was on my list. It's a no-brainer. Yeah. I'm happy with that. So I think now the conversation is, is what other carbon moves forward.
Right. But you got, you got some good cars on this list. You do. So I'm, I'm, I'm fighting for my, for my Honda fam. I'm gonna, I'm gonna know, like, I'm gonna say because of the limitations with the boxer from a, a maintenance side or some of the issue. I'm okay with that one being out. It it, and I like, I think it definitely deserves mention.
Mention. I think it should. I brought up, I don't think it [00:46:00] ends up in the back. I think it's only on the list because it's a Porsche. It's not actually like a great choice. Mm. You're saying like a Pontiac Solstice maybe just as good another road. So, you know, it's a car that people don't talk about. Another one, BMWZ three.
What was the Pontiac Solstice maybe Good. And nobody knew it. Maybe? No, actually no it's not. I drove it on track. Okay. I don't know. On track. It was, it was pretty soft. You just mentioned one of my goblin list cars. The Saturn sky slash tune in to the Patreon for the goblin list. 'cause I have my own goblin list.
He has a goblin list. We're gonna do a whole pi goblin list on Patreon. But let's keep, let's keep it on all. Um, so, okay, that's out. Um, the fiestas t um, I put on my list because I feel like it should be on the list, but it never will be. There's nothing, unfortunately, there's nothing that the ST can do that the RSX or SI can't.
Or the, or the fit. Or the fit can't, yeah. I would argue that the, I would argue that the, its closest competitor is the fit. It's about the same size. That's right. Yeah. But they're, they're, I mean, [00:47:00] like power wise, they're dramatically different. It, no, no, no. The ST's almost 200 horsepower. It's 190. I owned a, I owned a Fiesta and I owned a Fit.
The Fiesta is a garbage car compared to the fit, uh, in every single aspect. Yeah. Garbage on track though. Everything. Okay. Everything about it. The, the interior packaging, the, the switches. The knobs, the feel, you know, like Yeah, yeah. Like the, the He wax. Yeah, all of it. Like just as a car. It's funny because me and him have a lot of experience in the Fiesta St because of Ken's sponsorship with Ford and that car being brought over.
But they were given to us like disposable candy, so we just were like, whatever. Like we didn't care that none of that worked because it was like, I don't know, we just crashed another one. I mean, we ended up giving what, like 30 of them to TOT O'Neill, which they're still going. They're still running. I drove some of those last year garbage cars.
Maybe a little bit harsh, but like by comparison to the Honda Fit, 'cause they. They're in category, they're like up, they're head to head for the, [00:48:00] the common consumer. Yeah, sure. Like, not even close, but you can get, not even close, but you can get an ST for about the same price as a fit. Yes. And the ST is making just shy of 200 horsepower.
It's, it's probably, it's probably out of a 1.6 turbo. That's a pretty decent exit. It's probably a more exciting car. Uh, right out the rip. Yeah. 'cause of its speed. Right, right. And its ability to make speed and it's got an LSD as well. Mm-hmm. I, I think, um, you know, and, uh, you know, it was designed for that, right?
Yeah. It was designed as a hot patch. Uh, the fit, like accidentally became one because, uh, it was so thoughtful in every other a, uh, aspect. Sure. Right. You know, like, man, what a dis you tried to build a performance car and Honda just mistakenly, accidentally mistakenly built one. Just, just because that's our DNA because it's what they did.
I don't, I mean, I still don't think the fit is a performance car, but it's a great track day car. Right. So from his list, we move forward. The fit. And the twins. And the twins. Okay. I, [00:49:00] I feel like if E 46 moves forward, the RSX and the E 46 are there. RSX has to be there instead of the st. Yeah. So you guys both feel RX agree?
I agree, I agree with that. Right. So that checks the box of like, 'cause the, the civic, the RSX, there's, there's similar chassis for me. So now between those two and the C five, C five vet, like, so by the way, we are stacking a heavy front wheel drive class. The best list. No, I understand. I, I think, and I think it makes a lot of sense, but it's budget.
Budget mean it's front wheel drive is a very compact system. Definitely less things to break. For me it's the battle of C five VET versus C 46. And I think the deciding factor there, and I don't know the answer, but it's, I would pick the C five all day any day. But I have, you know, I'm very lucky to have a lot of driving experience.
So the C five's way more exciting to me. But starting out, I think E 46 would be better. Just from a longevity standpoint, right? Like I, yeah, so E 46 and RS six is what we're saying. [00:50:00] RSS XIR sx, I mean, between the RSS X and the C five brain would, I would choose the C five. And I'm a Honda guy, so like I am going to be heartbroken that the si, if the SI doesn't make the list and the RSS X doesn't make the list.
But I also think that it would be in the price point. Yeah. For track day cars, if the C five is mentioned and doesn't make the list. Yeah, that is, I completely agree with that. Yeah. For me it's either C five or E 46 to move forward because they're very similar. Oh, then E then E 46. Yeah. My top three from your list are the vet, the 46, and the Fiesta St.
Mm. Mainly. 'cause I have experience in all three of 'em. The big difference is, is like what the RSX gives you is vtech and not even as a joke, like part of the fun factor of being mm-hmm in a car is like, even if you're not going that fast, when you're at 8,000 RPM, you feel like you're ripping it. You feel like a hero.
Yeah. You know, versus a ST is like lower in the rev range. Yes. Just a little lazier like. You'll, you'll be fast. Yeah. But like [00:51:00] experience wise, are you gonna go home and be like, bro, I can't wait to do that again. But say that same thing now and you're comparing a C five vet. Yeah. But the C five vet is like, you know, I can't believe I made it home.
You know? And by the way, and by the way, I can't afford to go back to the track 'cause I smoked those tires and I flat spotted those. And uh, which is cool because the sound of that $1,400 for the sound of the, the V eight, like just playing over your head when you're powering out of a corner, like, so sick.
Oh God. So what is it we gotta move forward guys. Well, who chooses like who we choose as a group? As a group. Yeah. So I think we've narrowed it down. Yeah. Here's what I'm hearing. We've narrowed it down to the E 46 moves forward. We've all agreed there, right? E 46 C five vet, RSXI, I think the C five moves forward, right?
Yeah. So like, if, if I was a, so let's, let's do the quick vote. 'cause it always comes down to a vote. We can make this work. Yeah. Is it C five Vet? R. S six. Uh, C five vet. C five vet. That's it. I mean, between those two C five VET doesn't matter. Yeah, because, because I, I would've chosen that si [00:52:00] over the RSX E 46.
And they're the same or RSXE 46. E 46. E 46. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. You did it both back to back to the rs. I know you want the RS six to move forward, but that's fair. Okay, so here we are. This is where we currently. We have from your side we have the twins, AKA, the F-R-S-B-R-Z, and we also have the second Gen Honda Fit.
Yep. You have brought to the table the BMWE 46 3 30 I and in addition the C five vet. That's where we stand. All right, we're gonna take a quick little break. We'll come back and I'll give you guys my list, which is probably also a goblet list. Here we are with another story time interruption, brought to you by my good friends at FCP Euro.
Look, if you are a frequent listener, a very vehicular, you know, that I have been threatening to call the herd sell cars. That's what I've been threatening to do. A couple days ago, I decided, you know what? I'm gonna make the first step. And the first step is posting a. Feeler [00:53:00] post, see who's interested. And to my dismay, a lot of people were interested.
The car in question is my 1991 Audi 200, avant 20 valve turbo. The problem is, it just doesn't fit what I want right now. I got a couple other wagons, I think I wanna swap this out for something else. I figured put it up on the chopping block over the weekend. I decided it was time to clean it up, take those photos, try to actually move it and sell it.
Unfortunately, I fell back in love. How could I possibly get rid of it? So I deleted the post and immediately went to FCP Euro dot com and just started filling the cart with a bunch of things. 'cause see, for me, if I have a lot of parts to finish a car, it makes it a lot harder to sell, right? I mean this, this makes sense.
So I started getting all the basics and the first thing is suspension bushings. This immediately makes a car better. It had a squeaky belt. I replaced that. I needed a clutch master. Pick that up and a few other things. And of course, a whole bevy of liqui moly, fluids, you know, 'cause it makes the car feel happier.
So anyway, I did all that and, uh, I guess the car is not for sale anymore. If you two are looking for an [00:54:00] excuse not to sell a car, head over to FCP Euro dot com. Invest in some more parts and get that project of yours back on the road. And off of the classified posts. Keep it off a marketplace. Guys, stop selling cars unless you're selling them to me.
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Wait. I love that. You just start by laughing. Scotto smile of just what you're packing in that notebook right now is probably gr I, this is my favorite [00:55:00] part of firing one. I I, I actually think I might disappoint you. Yeah, because I think I, well, one, I have a lot of overlap from everybody else. Okay. Okay.
And as I started to go through my list, because we created the rule of no engine swaps, it really makes a lot of the cars that I would normally go after not work. So for example. I love the 9 44. I think it's a really fun platform. Yeah, it's a fantastic driver. The car and the chassis's really good, but like the stock nine 11, I mean the stock 9 44 engine is pretty, it's and luck lackluster.
And the car needs either, uh, inline five swap, shout to the Boost Brothers, uh, or like turbo charging or, or like an LS swap, like it's one of the cars that is actually the current engine in it. It takes so much effort and work to make it not just like really sporty but viable. So I just like, but at the same time, like, I mean, spec 94 9 44 exists.
That's the thing, you know, like I, I actually did look at [00:56:00] nine 40 fours as well, but same thing like kind of a semi gutless engine by comparison, unless you get the turbo, but the turbo's 20 pl grand plus now it's not is inexpensive space. Right, right, right. And in this list in general, I think, uh, uh, the audience will notice not a lot of turbo cars and uh, I think that's by design, right?
Like I might change that on my list, but yeah. Okay. Nice. Well let's get into it. Okay. So, uh, at the top was, was the Corvette C five on the, on the things that were even said, because it's just for like. Enjoyment. Yeah. Like I know it's gonna not be the easiest. I know it's gonna be the one that's gonna have a ton of issues and have like, you know, the consumable element, but you can also get most of the parts for Napa.
Yeah. Which is kind of nice. No, totally right. You can race that anywhere in America and not only find parts for it, but find someone who knows how to work on it. Yeah. And 'cause it's like, and you can race it in a, in a variety of applications, right? Yeah. Like there's, there, it's, it's almost everything. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And having gotten to once drive a Pratt Miller C six, like I know the [00:57:00] capability of, you know, where can conduct, know where, end up at the end. Right. Yeah. I love, I love the growth path of it. Yeah. And like, was the Compuware, like that era. Oh God. So those cars are just like simple time. But we've already said it, we've already moved it forward.
Uh, the twins was also on my list. Mm-hmm. I just like, it's, it's that car that I don't know if I would ever own one, but like I'm a huge champion for it. I'd, I'd, I'd look at it, uh, and think about owning it several times over. I don't know if I'd ever actually own one. I need, I'm just, I'm about an inch too big for it.
Mm-hmm. But like a new seat could change that. But I'm an inch too big to own it every day. Yeah. But it's still, I mean, for a small Japanese car, the fact that it fits my six foot eight frame is pretty amazing. Like, I could still turn laps in it. I have to do this with a helmet. Right. But like, it kind of works.
I wouldn't pass any actual regulation 'cause I have no room. It, if I wasn't, if I wasn't gravel obsessed, I would be in one today. Mm. Yeah, easily. Okay. So the next one for me is another repeat. And this is what always becomes a problem because it means that [00:58:00] my list ends up being my two Goins get horse forward because I just repeat all the ones.
But this is one that didn't make it forward, which is the fiesta St. Yeah. And I think there's something really that, that is a car that it was on. All that's the only car that's on all three of our lists. So even though we like, haven't moved it forward yet, very interesting that it made all three. It's very interesting.
And for me, I think it has a lot to do with one, the small chuck ability of it. The engine is 1.6. Turbo is a fun motor. 200 horsepower out the box. Like they're really affordable. I mean, you can find them for like seven or eight grand, which is like so nice. A really, really good buy for what that car is. Um, and then, uh, I will go to, uh, this one, which may be, I, I, I just, this is an entire platform space or configuration that we have not talked about, which is we have no all-wheel drive cars on our list.
Yeah. G-D-W-R-X. He's given me a look of like, that's a nightmare. I mean, [00:59:00] if you wanna oil down the track, that's a good choice. Oh, spoken from experience. Yeah. I mean, you had one. You had one, but had one. I considered it. Yeah. Like obvi. It's, it's in the affordable space. Look. Yep. The, the Audi guy in me wanted to say an Audi, but like, there's no Audi for that price that is reliable and isn't gonna be a huge nightmare.
Maybe an RS four would be kind of fun. I mean, a S four would be kind of fun, but like a B five S four. But like, they're a huge pain to work on when things go wrong. They're not that easy to service. And I, the minute I say it, Ron's like the engine's in front of the struts, which is No, not only that. I think the, the reason why you don't see a lot of all-wheel drive cars on here is because like a GD is a amazing daily, really fun in different conditions and everything on the track.
It will not make you a better driver. Mm-hmm. Because you're just fighting under steer and. With that car. It's an open diff in the back. It's an open diff up front, like the center's, you know, NOTB breakable. Right. So there's, you would [01:00:00] have to do so much to it to make it rotatable. Yep. That like you're outta your range.
The problem is, is the STI, which I think is a better option. Phenomenal. Because you do have, if you could find an STI I for 15 grand. The thing is, is that 15, you're getting the bottom of the barrel for it. Dogged like Yeah. They used to be that you could pick them up there. I mean, I bought, I bought my S St I for 12 grand.
I got my Evo Rs for 15. Yeah. Unfortunately. But that's 2013. Unfortunately. Good ones. Are way are now in the twenties. Yeah. And the ones that are left over or like have just, they have seen a life you don't want any know. And I think the problem is like the anxiety of uh, you know, like you can stay flat out in a Honda all day, every day, every lap.
Don't worry. Pull it back in, whatever. With EJ, unfortunately, like you're always kind of worried, is this gonna blow up? Is this gonna, whatever? And the transmission on those years isn't great either. We, we have a lot of, uh, Subarus in the grid life ecosystem for sure. So they do, they do people great platform.
It's not budget. I also looked at the gen after, I [01:01:00] forget what that one is, but the 2008 era, those are much better. Yeah. With the 2.5. I look at that as well, having driven both. I just enjoy how the, the, like the gd, it just feels like a lighter car. It looks and feels proper. The steering feels better. Like you drove, you had yours.
Mm-hmm. Which is the reason you were named Ron Car. 'cause we called that car. Ron Car. That's right. Um, but like you have, you know, you had a lot of experience in that car in a very modified world. Like your car from bone stock. I, because I started my first track day, I did in it, I just had wheels and tires.
Yeah. And then I evolved it to like full swap everything, you know? Yeah. Um, and it's a amazing mid-range car. The thing that it lacks is the, the simplicity of a lot of the other cars that we've talked about. Totally. Yep. Right. So like that's really, it's only like detriment. It certainly is an option. It certainly is viable.
If we're looking at like cheap track day car, it, it doesn't, doesn't come up. Because what you're saying is even though the chassis can be accessible, its found what it takes to make it better or to make it compete. Yeah. Is, is a problem. I [01:02:00] compete necessarily. It's to make it necess. It's just reliable.
It's just the, uh, I wouldn't even necessarily say that they're not reliable. They just have more things that could, could go wrong. Could go wrong, that could break. Right. It's a more, it's more complicated, you know, um, you know, just being an all-wheel drive system, you know, like there's just more, yeah. It's just more to deal with.
So lemme ask you a question. If it was an STI Absolutely. Yeah, it would, it would be high up on this list. But you, it's hard to find 'em in that price. Yeah. By the way, if anyone's got a nice white blah eye, let me know. Two, I'd like to buy one. Yeah. A Hawkeye for me. Yeah. Yeah. I still wouldn't put, I'll take a hawk.
I still wouldn't put it on the track day list for me. Be as a track day car. Sure. Yeah. I mean that's like one of the first real. I think like accessible turbo cars. Yeah. Now. Oh, for sure. I'm, now I'm like remembering that era. Right. And like just how much of a splash that, and like when the Evo like finally came, you know, stateside, it was like the arms race started, it was ape shit, you know, like, uh, I remember my buddy Sterling, like sold, he like showed up.
We used to have this, uh, meet every Thursday at [01:03:00] t Bell night. So it was like, we'd go to Taco Bell every Thursday. Yep. Hell yeah. Park in the parking lot, you know, get, get some T bell and hang, you know, and then, uh, Sterling, he calls it T Bell. I know T Bell all day. Yeah. Yeah. And then, yeah, and then Sterling showed up, uh, bought, like quietly bought, you know, a new Evo.
Oh, that doesn't let anybody know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he like, then he like rolled up. We're like, the fuck is that? You're like, oh shit. You know? I'll never forget that. That was a rad around time that, that era like defined the car world for me. Yeah. WRC was on speed channel. Yes. Watching the whole season.
Learning who Petter Solberg is watching these cars. You could get the same thing at the dealership. You get one, the Evo nine came out and with a downpipe and a tune, somebody ran 11 nine. Yeah. And like, that was like, I mean, wasn't it the, was it the Hawkeye that had like the sprayer for the cool, the water sprayer for the in cooler sprayer cooler from the factory changing the balance of the center dish front to rear.
Yeah. Like the vortex generator in the back. Auxiliary lights. It had all the buttons. It had all the [01:04:00] things like, oh. So I'm gonna bring my last one. All right. My last one. I will start by saying that it's outside of everything we've been talking about. That is, it is a mark two Volkswagen, GTI 16 valve, specifically 1989 to 1991, right?
Nine two. Okay. Here's why. This just goes for the bang for the buck thing, right? It is under 2000 pounds in race set. That means with a full cage, you're under 2000 pounds. The 16 valve engine is about 135 horse stock. It is a really, really well proven recipe. They raced them. I mean, there was like a GTI cup in America there, there's GTI cups all over the world and it is just a really fun, simple car to drive.
I prefer the mark one as a driver, but the mark two is just a better chassis. Mm-hmm. Like, it's just, it's a little bit more adorable. If you crash a mark one, [01:05:00] like the, the front subprime is integral to the chassis. So like you have a bat off and you might write off your cha, you might not write off the whole car, like the mark two has like, it, it shares parts with the mark three if later on you wanna swap in an engine, there is a huge list of Lego parts that fit as well as brakes.
You can do junkyard upgrades to that car. Like you literally, that car you can keep running because Volkswagen basically built parts that fit into that all the way until now. Right. It's the EEG of your world. Yeah. And it, it's, and it has, I wanna say this, it was the Miata before the Miata like that and the CRX were two cars that people didn't take seriously in the world of racing and then would get shown up by one on track.
Mm. Right. Like those are the cars, like runoffs, like SCCA runoff. Mm-hmm. Like that was a car that did really well. Right. Like, you go back and you look like, you know, was it David Wallens from, you know, grassroots motor sports? Like he owned one, like Per Schroeder owned one. Yeah. Like [01:06:00] it is one of those cars that all the people who rode about racing when we were younger Mm.
All had one. And I've driven one on track. I've owned one as a personal car. Um. They're great. Like it's really simple and they're very, very, very easy to work on comparatively to a lot of the newer stuff. There's no electronics that's like, it's basically, it's electric controlled mechanical CIS injection, which like, I don't love the CIS part.
It's definitely a, it's definitely a thumbs down moment, but if you can keep it working, it's, it's kind of fun. It's like Medtronic, CIS, it's, it's whatever. But that for me, I think is like it. It's outside of what we're talking about in terms of all these other ones, I think show up and you can kind of buy them and they're like, ready?
Sure. Right. Yeah. This might take a little bit more of a week to get it going, but shit, I bought a car, I bought a Mark one in New York and then went directly to Limerock with it. Mm-hmm. And all I did was put R triple eight on it, which was really dumb because it just, it almost rolled the car. Little too sticky.
A little too sticky. Yeah, A little too sticky, right. Yeah. Your suspension's not stick enough to like, I was slide [01:07:00] those. I was almost like a focus guy who rolls at the auto. At the auto cross. Oh my God. Yeah. Classic video. Uh, Chris, you had a line in the group chat last night. I don't remember what I said you something along behind.
He said I have the data. Only six Volkswagens have been raised. No, he is like, I have the data of over 10 years of cars on track in grid life. Every event, every year, every month. Hundreds of cars. Six Volkswagens. And my guess is they probably all, that's right. That's right. My guess is in recently they probably marked seven Mark Sevens.
Yeah. Yeah. The mark seven. Mark seven and a half. Great car. Great car. The problem is, is. The reason it's low. Yeah. The reason I didn't bring it to the list is I think when you look at the German front wheel drive offerings, yeah. It's really good, right? Mm-hmm. I would probably pick it over like a mini right?
Even though the mini's also really good and probably a car. I would all day, every day pick it over a mini, but we've had minis on the track too. Yeah. And I think like that, I think it's a great one, but I know that it's a hard fight to put that up against the civic si, right? Yeah. [01:08:00] I I, for, for what it is.
Yeah. Yeah. Not saying that that like of all of the modern Volkswagens, everyone I talk to, they're like, yeah, seven, seven and a half. I've also never driven one on track, so it's hard for me to speak. Yeah. What I'm saying though is like for the pure fun factor, I I, this is why we like the fit. The fit is trying.
That's exactly it. To be and trying to emulate. Yeah. It's a, it's a Honda fit with a different kink, A CRX or an original golf. It's an underdog story. It's an underdog story. One, everyone will root for you. Yeah. You can actually be the slowest person there and still get high fives. It's an underdog story.
It's ans true story. True. But there's also just a rawness, like that car just has a night, like for a front wheel drive car. It has really good connection to steering. You can feel everything in it really. Well, you probably could build the whole car for 15 grand. Right. Although 16 valves are getting a bit more expensive.
It's probably how, how much are they? Like there's one for sale right now for. Seven grand in a good color. So like, that's like if you found a bad, like a black or something less people are excited about, you could probably pick one up for like five. What's a good [01:09:00] color? Uh, Montana Green. Oh yeah, that's, that's a good one's.
A fucking great. That is a good one. Yeah. Yeah. So I, yeah, look, and I look, I'm obviously biased too. My Volkswagens, you're biased to your Hondas. There can be arguments made both directions, but I, I just, I, we don't have a single car in this list that's really even nineties or eighties. And I just think that there is, and I know there's a reason for it.
Yeah, there is a reason for it. Yeah. There, there is a reason for it. But like, you there, I don't know, I just re for me, just as a pleasure side, it's like if I was to pick between a fit and the. GT and like A-G-T-I-I would probably choose the GTI because I enjoy suffering. I realize that the fit would be such an easier ride, but like, I think from a smile level, like there is just something fun and about that.
Like if do you, for you, would you pick that era Honda? Well, I'm like, uh, I like no too much. Right? Like I, I think about safety and I think about like mm. You know, even with like my e like I'm a CX guy, right? You know, I think about my CRX, I think about, uh, a [01:10:00] C five Corvette. I think about us sharing the track, I think about the modern era of tracking, right?
I think about, uh, you know, new SRAs and, and big cars and tiny cars. Just how fast everything's gotten from tire tech alone, all those things. Yeah. Like, so, so that's probably like a, a bias that I shouldn't present. Mm-hmm. You know, because like, I like my That's a good conversation. Yeah, no. Like my, yeah. My CRX, it's like, you know, like, shit, I don't wanna get hit by somebody else on this track.
Yeah. You know, not because I'm worried about getting hit hit on track. Yeah. But because of like how far vehicles have come Yep. And who you're sharing the space with Totally. At this point. Right. So it's like, if I'm looking at civics, right, like I am an EF. You know, I'm an EF kid, like through and through.
Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, you could probably, for 15 grand, you could probably find an eg. You know, you could probably find, you know, an ek, you know, so like totally. That, that's, that's, that's why like some of the things that I really love and gravitate towards, like didn't make the list. Yeah. 'cause I'm thinking about this [01:11:00] moment in time, which sucks, right?
Yeah. But it's like, it's like kind of like, yeah, all we're vintage racers. I know. Isn't that weird? Vintage racers we're vintage racers. We're like the guys who are like taking out like, yeah, they're old E types or whatever. We're we're vintage racers. They are. So you, yeah. I'm a mid-range racer. Yeah. I mean, but that's, you're getting, you're getting close.
I'm getting close. So that's, you know, that, that, uh, that GTI that you're presenting is like, it's, it's vintage. That's I knows class, so, but I would, I would choose, like, I would probably choose that car over the fit, you know, like it from an experience with all that stuff removed, right. With everything that I just said.
From a practicality, with everything that you're thinking about for this moment in time, you know? Um, that would be a much, a much. All right. Well, yeah. Unfortunately for you guys, because I'm at the end and a lot of my choices in picked, there's not that much. You only get to choose between the three, because it's either Fiesta, St G-D-W-R-X or the.
1990 Mark two [01:12:00] V two, some kind tactics that you have. I think the VTA goes on the list. Yes. 'cause it goes forward. It's been brought up so many times. It's, it's right. Like it's, uh, it's like forgotten about. It's like, let's repeat for the, for everybody. So we've got, we have the fit. Yep. We have the twins.
Yep. We have the C five, C five and the E 46. Correct. So we're actually now pretty stacked rear wheel drive. Yep. Right. And then we just moved forward the Fiesta st. So that's another front wheel drive car. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, so now we're, we're, we're WRX versus versus, um, the golf, the vintage racer. You don't even have to ask me.
And I'm not just saying that to go against you as much as I enjoy that, um, I would move, I would move the WRX forward. Not to, not to, not to, to crush your, crush your hopes and dreams. I get it. I get it. You know, but, um, I think it's, it's a different, it's a different era for the moment, right. Like it's, it's vintage, you know, like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say, like, somebody asked [01:13:00] me, Hey, I wanna get a track car.
I wouldn't be like, oh, you really need to find like a, a, you need to find a 1990, you know, EF Hatch. Because it, like, had they updated what I did right. Like it, that wouldn't, that wouldn't be what I would say. So with that being said, you know, the WRX, because one, it it, it brings a diversity to the list. Yep.
Because there's a lot of fans. I agree. That of all-wheel drive, lot of fans, you know, um, and once you fix a few suspension things on it Yeah. It's great. The car is great. It's great. And, and that's, that's got a wide support aftermarket. Yeah. Crazy. Crazy aftermarket. Crazy aftermarket. And one of the biggest, and I would also argue that the GD also has a recipe.
Yeah, it does. Like so many guys have raced it both on Yeah. Like the, a very basic level to full blown time attack. Yep. Like crazy, you know, era. I mean, you think about a lot of the cars we looked at and dreamed about in Super Street in the early days were like time attack, STIs. Yep. The John Otto. One bunch of Camra up front.
Yeah. Big old sway bar in the rear. Like you could get it to do some stuff. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. Okay, so our list as we move into the [01:14:00] blind spot right now is not a Volkswagen Golf. I'm just double checking. I'm double checking. 60 off. Almost. Sorry dog. I tried to fit it in. I tried to fit it in. I get your point.
I get your point. Maybe we'll, maybe we'll have to do a vintage Yeah. What, what we call neo vintage. Yeah. So it's like ne the neo vintage track car list. That could be a really fun one. Cars built from like 75 to 95. Yeah. I mean, we open up, open up a grassroots motor sports from, you know, 9, 9 19, you know, or, or, or 1999.
Yeah. And you'll see all these cars because these were all what they were racing list for. Those are the cars were the original standard. Which is one of the reasons why it's on the list for me. 'cause it has been on my list and I have researched it since. 1996. Right, right. Percent era. I have researched racing this car.
So like there is a wealth of knowledge right here, right in my brain. No, you were, you were rattling that you have to call. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. I was like, about to start like really lit and I was like, I'm not gonna see the you, you were both dissociating from the conversation. I was like, step one, I [01:15:00] was gonna start talking spring rates and I'm layer, all right, I'm out.
I, I'm out. Layer two, layer three and I was like, oh, is he gonna step in a layer four? Is he going that deep? I told Nick, I was like all, I was like, the hill I'm dying on today is a mark two GTI 16 valve. But yeah. Alright. I, alright, so here's our list. We have C five Corvette, we have Honda Fit. I just love saying those back to back.
And then we have uh, FRS slash bz, AKA the twins. Yep. We have the GDW Rx, which spans the 2002 to 2007 span. And then we have the Fiesta st. And last but not least, we have. E 46. E 46. 46. Three 30. Three 30 high. Which is important 'cause you can get some pretty, you can get some Bonzo ones, some pretty bonzo. E 46 is out there.
Yeah. So it's a good looking track day. So that's a good looking track. That's, isn't that a good looking track day? That's a great track. Yeah. Like think about the all, we all know the [01:16:00] GDS going home on a triple AAA flatbed, but it's still a fun day. The Corvette's laughing everybody. No, it, it's a good looking track deck.
We're sending it wall a good, that's good. That's a good looking intermediate session. I think so know, like, that's decent. Yeah. So now, now we break out the blind spots. So the folks on Patreon have, uh, put together their list of things, of things that we tend to miss. Um, and I've actually found this to be super useful.
By the way, if you don't belong to the Patreon, go join you. If you, if this like two and a half hour or the other three hour shows is not enough, which all of you're complaining, we should do a five hour show. You just get more on the Patreon, but you also get to be involved in the background of making shows like this.
Okay. Um, Jackson B says vintage racing stuff. He's like E 20 ones, Dotsons, celicas rabbits. We just had that conversation. Yeah, yeah. And there, there is one answer for all of those. Yeah. The crushes 'em all. By the way, he said when he said this, I mean this is like, I should add him as a friend somewhere. He said something you can throw a Weber or two on for that nasty 100 horsepower at the crank.[01:17:00]
Hell yeah. This man has been reading my diary. Yeah. This is a Scotto fan. Through and through. There's one answer for that. Yeah. And it crushes everyone else lotus along by the way, by the way. Jared, AKA, uh, chapel, uh, who we talked about earlier, uh, or we talked about on the Patreon special. Uh, he's like 15,000.
Geez, that's not a budget. 6,000 is a budget. And you know what? I agree. Or originally I was gonna put the number really low. Mm-hmm. But I do think it starts to kind of be this, like, it's slightly unrealistic or you end up only being, you're like, yeah, I want a golf 16 valve. Because like, you can't buy, you're either buying, it's just a fit spec class.
Well, no, you start getting into the, like, can you search and find a car that cheap? Yeah. Like I'm sure I could find a salvaged crash BRZ that I could build back up to make a track car. You could definitely find everything we've set on this list. For example, our C five Corvette we bought for five grand.
Yeah. So that car is possible at five grand, but that was kind of a unicorn deal. Yeah. But, but I so hate when you watch YouTubers and they're like, budget build. I bought a nine [01:18:00] 11 off my friend for six grand. And you're like, yeah, that doesn't exist anymore. That's not real anymore. Yeah. We bought, uh, the knuckle Busters M three.
I bought it for two grand E 36. Like, you can't buy that anymore. Can't, it's gone. That's over. Yeah. So it's like, it's really, and that thing was worked. Yeah. It's really the window of, of that, you know, I think it was a good price range because it like gets you to the point where you're like considering things that you can't get.
Yeah. And then you can, you can really easily come in under with, with everything on our list. Yep. Easily. You know, so, so then you talk about budget, you still gotta get to the track. Still gotta pay for that stuff. So we gotta, we got a wild card here. Someone says Lexus is two 50. Oh. Hmm. So that was, that was the manual transmission option, right?
You could get the manual in the, in the two 50. I think you could get manual, but that's the thing is that they're kind of tough to find a manual. Yeah. So that seems like a hunt. I don't necessarily disagree that that would be, and it's on the heavier side. Yeah. Like if you're It's on the heavier side.
Yeah. If you're, if you're looking at that like just get a Z Same experience. Just get, just get a Z. Yeah. Yep, yep. On the heavier side, there's a lot of people in here saying ZC four, [01:19:00] Corvettes, mark four, golf one, eight. Turbos. Not a C. Not a C four. COR four C4 is like a co completely different suspension.
Like c5, C six is like the Corvettes made for, if you want to spend most of your life on the internet, learning how crossfire injection works, get a C four. I forgot about other than that, about that. I had to learn how to do that just to help Kyle fix his car. Yeah. Um, let's see, what else? Uh, we obviously have our Europeans bringing in things like the rental, like Mcgain, Mcgon, Cleo, things like that.
Obviously not our world. Other people are bringing up the boxer. We talked about that. Um, someone here said that the Toyota Echo or the JDM Vz first Gen, I don't know much about that car, but they wrote a lot about this. That's, and it actually sounds pretty exciting. Yeah, that's because it's, it's a fit size vehicle.
It's a fit size vehicle. Yeah. So, so that's like, that's like the whole B spec. There's a, there's a spreadsheet. Um, that, uh, is put together that tells you every single car that we know of that fits into the Sunday Cup Class Club sc Oh, nice. Yeah. So, um, and like where it, where it, where it fits and it's a, it's a [01:20:00] ton of cars.
Yeah. Yeah. I got another, someone brought up the RX eight, which the RX eight is the perfect example for me of like an amazing car. It just needs a different engine. Yep. Like that, that falls into the 9 44 category or completely different gearing. The RX eight has been rising in conversation like throughout my world, you know?
Mm-hmm. Have you driven one? No, they are fantastic. They're fantastic. Are they? We, we got into this driver's car size spooky. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like they look like, like a, like a botch circums, but like, that's fine. It's like, it's a weird, there's like some foreskin going on. It's just on one side it's like an extra, there's like extra flaps, like, I don't know.
Oh boy. It just looks like something went wrong there. Um, that being said, I still like, I, they're just, they're really, really fun to drive, like Yeah. Yeah. Great. Cha, it it's just that it's the reliability of the resis engine is, is really problematic. Yeah. They're, they're in the range cost wise. Oh. Easily.
Easily. Um, this is a huge blind spot. I questioned putting on my list and I just couldn't, [01:21:00] but like. It was S 1 97 Mustangs. Yeah, I looked at those. I just have, I have done a lot of track time in those cars and I never liked them. I just didn't I get that they can be quick. I just didn't enjoy them driving.
Yeah. I remember doing a road trip with Vaughn and we went and did like some track stuff and I just kept asking him, I'm like, do you really like how this car drives? And he was like, this is one of the best sports cars. I'm like, no, it's not like I, I drive sports cars for a living and write about, but I'm like, I do not enjoy driving this car.
Did it? Yeah. The fit and finish and like how the interior feels is like if Fisher-Price tried to make an actual car. But I'm telling you, people are gonna go super hard on the comments 'cause there's an entire group of people who track those. Totally. Do you see a lot of them? Yeah. And they're not on your side?
Or is it kind of a different demo? It's, no, there's, we've got Mustangs, but like if the, if the C five exists on this list, why do you need the Mustang? Good point. Exactly. Point. I agree. Like you, you don't because if you want the Big V power No, they check. You just get it better on the C They check the same box and like the C five is clearly a better choice.
Yeah. You would get a Mustang and you [01:22:00] would track a Mustang because you're a Ford guy. Exactly. Like you, you have to be that dude. Or you like Mustangs. Yep. You know, like otherwise. C five wins that conversation hands down easily. Um, another one, uh, I mentioned this quickly before, but BMWZ three, preferably the 3.0, I think that is like a quick, like that is another Miata type of vehicle.
Yep. I, I, I had that almost on my list, but it is also a vehicle I barely fit in. Yeah. Road Roadsters don't make it to my, you know, my thing. They're not really in your realm. They're like outside the space. Yeah. I mean like, uh, I mean they, they certainly are sports cars. I just like, you lose a lot of practicality too.
Sheb Garfield says the mark two GTI golf. And then he says, yes, I'm biased. And then you realize his avatar is a mark two GTTI race car. Yeah. Yeah. So comment how much Scotto paid you. Yeah. Um, mini, we talked about that. Um, here's one that, um, I thought was really interesting and it made me go do a marketplace hunt last night and then do some research, but it said one 90 [01:23:00] E and it's base, it says incredible suspension, boring engine.
And it's like, I only really know the one 90 E as the CauseI version, right? Yeah. Which is like the two three variant, but. I, I, you know, I was like, I wonder if, and then I like started reading and a lot of people say that the one 90 is like such an amazing, like, just like great chassis, like chassis car, but just doesn't have a good engine.
Obviously that doesn't fit into this group. Yeah. But I found people who do two J swaps for them. And then I just was like that, like I lost like a good hour and a half last night researching because I was like, man, A one 90 with a, with a J mm. That could, that could be pretty good. Um, one of the best sounding engines.
Just, let's see what else we got here. Uh. A lot of Hondas are on this list. Right. I'm so glad There's a lot of vintage stuff. My goblin list has not been corrected. There, there's there a lot of, a lot of Hondas are on here. FC FB Rx seven. I think that fits into what we're saying. The Neo, that's our neo vintage Yeah.
Kind of class. Um, this, someone brought this up and I went and looked at [01:24:00] it. 'cause I actually thought, man, this actually might not be a bad competitor. And something I don't think anyone's talked about is the Veloster n Sure. Because that, and it's, but it's on the cusp. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's on the cusp. Like yeah, you can find one for 15, but it's not gonna be a great example.
They're not, they're not there yet. And if you're spending that much, you might as well, they're not there yet. But like yeah, that's actually like really fun car, really fun car. We spent some time in 'em and it's a, a very, very like, nice handling car. Good power. That's gonna be one of those brands that in 10 years from now you'll see a lot of like Elantra ends and Veloc totally on track because they probably won't keep their resale value.
Absolutely. And you'll be able to go rip 'em and somebody will make 'em really cool. Like a group of guys will make 'em awesome. And then you see the resurgence. Alright, so, oh, and here's another one which like, I kind of love. Uh, John Baer Matthews says the Crown Vic. So Crown, crown Vic. Oh my God. Crown Vic has like kind of the same type of aura as a fit.
Right? So like, they kind, they kind of fit, they kind of fit into the same category of like track day [01:25:00] clown car a little bit, you know? I mean, I've spent a good amount of time racing Crown Vix as well. Yeah. And they're fucking great. Yeah. They're really fun. Yeah. We were just talking about that last time.
The taxi derby. Uh, the taxi derby do obviously Cletus's race. I've done three of the Cletus races and like, I got to race Bristol Motor Speedway in one and A, it's terrifying. But b like you really have to be good. Like, it teaches you like a lot of stuff. It's a, a big heavy Bodhi car. You have to be very deliberate and very smooth with your inputs, and you can learn a lot from that.
I just wanna bring up a comment that, uh, that was added about the WRX and I kind of forgot about this for other regions. Uh, fantastic ice racing car. Great ice. And if you live in the north, there is really easy accessibility to ice racing. Oh yeah. And like we talked about this before, having a track car that can blend and do other stuff or even things that would be fun to go do an autocross with.
Like, seat time. Seat time. That does actually give the WRX. Well, because none of the other cars we talked about are that much fun. No, yeah. Ice racing. Yeah. And there are a few things that are more fun than nice racing. [01:26:00] I know. It's really good. It's so good. It's really good. Yeah. Um, all right. Other than that, I, there's really not much other stuff on the, I feel like, I feel like we've mentioned, oh yeah.
This is the other one that, that was a blind spot. Uh, this just is like, this car is a blind spot. Full stop. Yeah. Like I just never think about this car. Yeah. Ever. The Toyota MR two, it was on my list and then off my list Yep. And back on my list. Yeah. I've, I again, small cars. Yeah. Yeah. I don't really got a chance to drive.
Yeah. But when I was doing research into this, it definitely shows up on lists. Yeah. Yes. And sport compact car. Back in the day, they tried to make it like even close to a stock, a lease. Yeah. And they couldn't, yeah. But very cool looking, very cool pro. And it might be really fun. I've never driven one. It kinda looks like a bar of soap, you know, it's, yeah.
Well that's what people said. They were like, it's basically an Elise. 'cause it's the same engine. And then I, I read like a review and it said something to the effect of like, it's got all the things about the Elise except for the things that [01:27:00] make the Elise great. Right. I was like, okay. That's, there is a guy here, uh, locally that in SoCal driver's club, he has one that's built, looks sick, looks like an absolute blast.
And it's like, oh. Makes you kind of think. Yeah. Okay. So here's the part of the game where we get to make a decision of whether or not anything on the list of the blind sides moves forward or by, and when I say that it has to take the place of something else. And I wanna bring this up because this is a blind side.
That would normally be the car, which is the Miata. MX five was on none of our lists. And for the audience, we had a. Pre-production conversation about putting this all together. It's on Patreon and originally we were gonna say top five. Uh, track day cars that are not the Miata because we all thought that the argument was that the Miata would be in first place.
Uh, the Miatas not on my list. I'm six foot eight is the [01:28:00] dumbest car for me to drive. Also not on Ron's list. 'cause I think you also have a height issue in the car. Not even that. You just think it looks whack. If I fit it perfectly, still wouldn't pick it. Just, and it wasn't on your list. Just 'cause it doesn't need to be, it's already on enough lists and, right, right.
Yeah. So like it's, and I wouldn't, I, I had a Na Miata. Mm-hmm. You know, like, uh, that for a little bit. You know, like if I was gonna buy one, I'd probably buy an NB, um, you know, uh, but I wouldn't, yeah. We, so we had shark cart, which was fantastic, but it amazing. But it also had a supercharger on it. Yeah. Like, which made, it was not as much fun without the supercharger.
What made shark car awesome. Was cutting off, saw the bon cutting off when we removed everything that looked like a Miata from it. Oh, this is sick. Yeah. The number one way to make the Miata hole Yeah. Was to make it not look like a Miata. Yeah. So. All right. So I mean, I just, 'cause you know that there are people right now listening to this frothing that we are saying that the greatest top five cars does not include, they can froth.
Yeah. Does not include. Alright, that's fine. We're moving forward. Uh, well wait, you had an [01:29:00] argument for the eighth Gen Civic? Si Yes. Yeah, the Eighth Gen Civic. So, so you think the Eighth Gen deserves a swap out? And I will say a hundred percent. I will say, looking through the list of, uh, everybody who was in the blind spot, it was constantly repeated.
It was like it was on almost everybody's list. Yes. So I, I think, uh, to not have a civic on the list, you know, uh, it is a little crazy. It's crazy. It's a little crazy. Do you think if you had to choose between the civic and the fit, which one would you choose? See, this is tough, right? So like, I would choose the fit because it's the spiritual successor to my experience, you know?
And. Um, it's the cheapest to operate, however, you know, if you want it also, I don't believe I'm saying this out loud, it oddly looks cooler Oh, then than the HN Civic. Yeah. HN is an interesting car. Like you said, it's just a small Honda Odyssey. Yeah. It's what it is. Yeah. Yeah. So, but, um, you know, the civic is, is is flexible, right?
Like, you can, you can wheel the wheel. It you, you know, the k right. It's got [01:30:00] the K motor. Right. Like you can really grow into it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like it's, are you a Big K motor fan as a Honda guy? Um, I don't have any cars that have a K motor. Yeah. I feel like it's the LS of Honda Engines and it's the Ls and I don't say that like, as it's like the Ls of everything.
Yeah. But it's like, it's the LS of small motors. Yeah. It just doesn't sound good to me. Mm. Which is a huge part of the experience. Yeah. I have, um, I'm a B series. Yeah. Oh, B series is great. Yeah. Full support. Yeah. That's so, yeah. Like the, the CRX I'm building is BSer, you know. Nice. So, and that, so sick that that's my build.
Right. And then I'm, I'm taking the BS series that came that I, that I had in my track car and doing like a full, if I was gonna do it again right. In 2002, I'd do it like this. And that's my final boss for Alright. So you, so you're making the argument that eighth gen should be on the list, but instead of what?
Instead of the Fiesta. A hundred percent. Like if you, so the Fiesta is unfortunately, yeah. By the way, I do wanna point out, so the Fiesta is the bridesmaid, like always the bridesmaid? Never the bride. I, [01:31:00] it was a sympathy vote 'cause it has been invited, it has been invited to each of our lists. I gave it, but it doesn't get to come to the honeymoon.
It was a, it was a, it was a sympathy vote, you know, like even on my list I was thinking about it and I was like, focus St. Fiestas st I was like, I like smaller stuff. Yeah. Fiesta Fiesta St is a way better card. Way better focus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's there. It's like not even close. So it was, it was a, yeah, it was a sympathy vote, uh, you know, from the rip.
Um, and it sounds like it might've been a sympathy vote across the board. I think it's, I think it actually, in my mind, I thought it was gonna be a blind spot for everybody, so I was surprised to hear you say it. Less surprised for you to say it. Mm-hmm. We obviously have rally backgrounds, so it's a car that has value there, but it was just kind of like a fun whipp able car.
Really good price. Yeah. And, and not a Honda. So that's why I put it on my list. 'cause I like, people forgot about it. Totally. I mean, look, if I had like, let's just play the game. So Si, si or, uh, st. Si a hundred percent si. Yeah, I do Begrudgingly because I would rather have the R RSS X, but still it was, it was between those two.
[01:32:00] Yes. The, the Si and the RSX, you had to choose Motor Trends Car of the Year. If you had to choose between the SI and the RSX, what would it be for you? Si. Yeah, because the, like, the, uh, the RSX like aesthetically, um. You know, like, ah, fuck. I think the RI think the RSS X is a better looking car, way better looking car.
I mean, the si to his point. Yeah. It looked, you know what the si looks like is you took a photo of the Odyssey and you were in Photoshop and you grabbed the wrong thing and woo. You like, and it just like squashed it. That's kind of what it looks like. Like you just rescale the mistake. Just, just because of the angles and the like headlights.
Yeah. The headlights, headlights, headlights and the slope of the, the hood and the front bumper. Yeah. Yeah. Very similar. I remember when that car came out looking at it being like, huh, how the mighty have fallen. Yeah. Like, well, it, it, it was a little bit spaceship. Yeah, yeah. Right. I'm out. I was just bored. I out.
Do we wanna then have the argument of RSX or Si You know, my answer, I think, I think amongst the [01:33:00] Honda community, they're, they're similar, right? Yeah. So, like, you know, eighth gen, it's like that's the, that's the best of what we can, you know? Yeah. What you can get in that price range. Sure. But like, you can't lose, so here's the thing, I, if I had to vote, body panels, you guys are on the two sides.
Replaceable parts. Yeah. Bits and pieces, odds and ends. The RS X is gonna be less, more expensive. I never see rsx on the road anymore. Yeah. Much, much more difficult, you know, in that regard. And, and like the, you're gonna have to hunt for one. So right now it's a tiebreaker. You guys are both on the side. I obviously don't have much experience in either.
I'm gonna take his, his argument. I wanna live in a moderator world here. His argument for the panels and that it was ubiquitous in the list on Patreon. Yep. So we'll move to si. Okay. So this gives us our final list, right? I have it here so I don't make any mistakes. We have going into the final round, the Ultimate Rumble, the Corvette C five, the E 46, 3 30 I, the twins, AKA, the F-R-S-B-R-Z.
The Honda Fit Second Gen, [01:34:00] the Subaru, W-R-X-G-D, and the eighth Gen Civic si, which just bumped out the Fiesta St. Yep. All right. You guys ready to have that conversation? Good lobby? Yeah. Good lobby. I like it. We're gonna take a quick break. We'll come back and we'll order these bad boys. Rank 'em. It's the snack intermission brought to you by Vyper Industrial.
Today we have something of substance because our boy, Chris said he is actually hungry today. We have Bobos, PB and J, grape. You know how you have like those friends who like, you've just done like really crazy like illicit stuff with like, you know, donkey shows in Mexico. That's what, that's what Ron is to me.
But in the snack world, in the food game, yeah, in the food game. Like we have eaten some very questionable things. I've seen this man make combinations that would make a non blush. The look of this is like a solid two out of 10. This is, this is pretty, this is pretty dense. It's dense. It was dense. It was dense.
Mm. [01:35:00] So, yeah, I'll say this though. It's one of those snacks that the more you chew, the better it gets. Mm-hmm. I wish it went harder on the J than the pb. You want more filling? Mm-hmm. Yeah. You want like a little bit more? Mm-hmm. In it? Absolutely. No, not bad though. Hit it with a score. You start outta a 10.
Outta a 10. It's a seven. Seven. Wow. Wow. Yeah. I'm gonna hit it with like a five. Yeah, I'm there on a five too, man. Now that I like read the family story, I want to give 'em like at least a 6.5. No, I mean, see, there you go. I I'll bump it up to a 5.5. Yeah. Okay. It's a cliff. It's a cliff bar for eight year olds.
I actually, like, I, I haven't eaten today, so like, it's good from a substance side, it just doesn't, it just, it doesn't really check the snack part. Sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, well, since you enjoyed it so much, you get the extra one. You could say that for later. Anyway, back to the show. All right. The time has come, we gotta rank 'em.
So first up is something's gotta die. Mm-hmm. We got six things on the list. Mm-hmm. And there can only be five. [01:36:00] So, uh, what is your what? I'm gonna start this. You start first. What would you kill? Okay. Might be controversial. Yep. Uh, I'll kill off the. Wow. Off of this list. I don't see a reason for them to be on, if you have access to the three 30 I and the C five, only because the first gen, the limitations on the first gen, if this was the second gen, like I, it would beat out the E 46 to me.
But as we sit right now, I think you would have a lot more fun. You would have like an equally cool, if not cooler looking car in the E 46 and a c five's not leaving. So like why have that much of the, kind of the same thing, you know? Hmm. What would you kill? You get to kill anything on the list? Probably kill the WRX.
You'd kill the wx. Okay. Yeah. Why complexity once again. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. Just because if we're, if we're talking about track day things, right? You track a wx because you love W X's. Yeah. Right. [01:37:00] You know, you don't necessarily get a WX because you really want to track. Mm-hmm. That's fair. So I'd probably, I'd kill the SI because, and having, I mean, I've driven the fit, but I have, and I, I have driven the SI too because I probably was on the press launch, but I don't, neither of 'em really stand out to me.
I might not have had like a full track day with either of them. Um, but from you explaining the two, if I had to pick between the two, I would go fit and I just feel like killing off an all-wheel drive car on a trek. I don't know. I, I just feel like, like they're too similar. Um, like I, like you would never own either.
Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. If you're looking at this list and you're saying one of these cars might speak to me. Mm-hmm. I would say that the E 46 and the C five are completely different cars. Mm-hmm. Right? Totally. It's a real drive sedan. Yeah. Even if it's a two-door, it's a sedan in base. Yep.
Versus a proper sports car format. Transaxle. Totally. Um, the, you know, the, I guess you would say the [01:38:00] BRZ sort of also like sports car, but like way smaller. Definitely more of a momentum car. It's pretty much a Roadster with a roof. Yeah. Right. Lives into, you know, smaller footprint. Um, again, I like all wheel drive cars that Subaru does that for me.
To me, the two that feel like they're in competition is like, the fit to me seems like a lighter, more checkable version of the si. But you could correct me 'cause you have way more experience than 'em. Yeah. If you were, if you were presented with the two as like a track day car, um, the novelty of the fit, um, and the practicality, like if you spreadsheeted it, there's no way you'd choose the fit over the si.
Mm-hmm. Right. Factory, LSD, you know, uh, KK motor, one of the, one of the best motors of our era. Um, huge aftermarket. Huge aftermarket. You know, I dunno if I'd say best one of the air, but, but keep going. Okay. Because you're making power one, one of the most popular motors of our era. That's for, that is for true.
That is for true. That is true. You so a good version of that, you know, [01:39:00] of that motor. Right. So, um, you know, and, and intended to be a. Sporty version of the, you know, right. Economy car that it's based off, it arguably is a performance variance, right? There is a fit sport, but that's just a lip and a spoil, uh, and a spoiler, right?
So it's like, yeah, there's, there's nothing, uh, now like a driving experience wise, the, the fit I enjoy more because it's feels like an EF to me, right? Mm-hmm. Um, that's a tough, that's a tough thing, right? And that's what I think attracts me to it. Because to me, before we were talking about like, you know, the spiritual successor, the fit to me feels closest to the mark two golf.
It is 16 valve that you wouldn't let me put on the list. It is, yeah. So like I would protect the fit in that fight because I think that's what, that's the experience. If I want to take a front wheel drive car out on track, I want to go enjoy it being really lightweight and checkable. I'm not trying to do C five [01:40:00] things in it.
Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I think at a certain point, like people try to push front wheel drive cars too far. It's like just get a different call. The Civic is still lightweight and trackable. Yeah. I would say the fit has to stay. Because it is the most truly budget out of all of the ones on the list.
It's the most truly budget. Yeah. And I think it has and running it in the long term. I also think it has way more of a, um, of a future. I, I think that there's this world where like you go back and listen to this podcast five years from now and a bunch of these cars don't appear on the list anymore, but the fit kind of still does.
The fit might stay because I think other things may work or also there's no new cars that are great. So it's probably just BRCs and fit. It's just the list stays the same. If you're thinking about that, I would say that like the Civic, the civic would, would remain on that list. 'cause the fit doesn't exist anymore.
Right. It only made it three gens and now it's done. Now it's an HRV. Yeah. Right. So we, we gotta kill something. Yeah. So all three of us have said something different. So you said kill the twins. I still think it's the twins. And that. You said kill the gd? Yeah, I said kill the si. Yeah. Does anyone feel closer to someone [01:41:00] else's choice?
Here we can get into voting. I'll say one more thing about the twins is that I think you're capped on progression very quickly 'cause of that engine without having to do a swap, without having to turbo it or do a swap, or just spending a lot of money on it. Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. So as far as front wheel drive cars, we have the, we have the fit and we've got the si.
Yeah. Yep. Kind of both sides of the spectrum. Yeah. In my opinion. I mean, they, they're so similar. Yeah. Honestly. Okay. So here, if you had to choose between ours, if I had to kill the Subaru or kill the si, what would you do? I'd kill the, I'd kill the si. Okay. Because the fit gets you a lot of the same type of things.
The Subaru very regional of course, but the second it rains on track, you're smoking everybody. Right. Um, usability anywhere where it does have a lot of wintertime, way more usable. Yeah. Right. It's a great daily. Great daily. By the way, I did do one lap of America in an STI. Yeah. I, and it's a, it's when it rains that you're the number one car out there, like having a, having [01:42:00] a, uh, just for the d uh, representing diversity of preference too.
Right. That's all Drive trains, if that remains. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So I do, I That's true. I do think, I mean, I already made the argument of like, Hondas off have this similar soul, right? Yeah. Like, like in regards to the way that they feel. And so you're still getting it one way or another. You're you're still getting it.
Right. Yeah. You know, so, um, and that's not an easy decision. Like I, I, well it feels like a shame that like an si doesn't make I know list, right? Know, like, okay, so let's talk about his, so, or let, let's do you do the two of us, would you kill the twins or would you kill the WRX? That's a tough one too. Like I, um, I think that the twins are going to be like very pervasive in the culture for, for tracking.
Mm-hmm. You know, like moving forward. Absolutely. I think, I think they're going to be a absolutely dominant chassis 10 years from now. So like that's, and I don't disagree with that. I just think in our current rule set, with everything else presented, that's where we are today. The [01:43:00] second that the most recent gen car becomes available, sub 15 K, forget it.
It's okay. So you would kill the, you wouldn't kill the twins? No, I don't. You'd actually kill the si in that conversation. Don't think Yeah. In that conversation. I think I would. I don't think, okay. So here, so in that math Yeah, in that math between, this is kind of gets, I don't know if this math makes perfect sense, but you wanna kill the W Rx, you want to kill the twins.
Yeah. And I would probably argue to keep, I think, I'd argue to keep the twins because even though like, I, I mean I, I just think that that, and it was on my list to begin with as well. Um, I think for the same reason as he does, I mean, I I, it it's the last of a generation of, uh, analog cars. Mm-hmm. And they're still making them right now.
Like realize the Gen two car, the parts are interchangeable. Yeah. So it's like you have a car that is still, you could still go buy new parts for at a dealership, and that may continue for another couple years. There's A-G-L-T-C car running [01:44:00] Gen two Motor Gen one chassis doing very well. And I will say they do look really cool.
And again, like. I, I guess I do have to agree that the twins will make you a better driver than a GD would. I killed the SI once when we did my list in the first place because the twins in the fit, they kill it twice. The twins in the FIT went forward. Yeah. You know, so like True, true. So in that conversation, no one saved the si.
So I think we, so it now becomes, so we lose the si. Do you and I both agree of all the cars to lose, we lose the si? No, I think, I mean, so I'm, I'm, I'm, I've been arguing for the intention of the si, right? Like the reality is like I'm a Honda guy and I haven't, I haven't, it hasn't been in my actual consideration for a very long time.
Right. Because, you know, my, my heart kind of like stayed around, you know, the, the fourth gen, fifth gen, sixth gen era. Okay. You know, so, so if we can't, if we can't figure this out, yeah. Through, through this weird math I tried to put together, um, 'cause this doesn't work in a traditional voting 'cause [01:45:00] it's the sixth place.
Um, let's look at this and say, what car is sixth place? If we just did one outta six, what car is the bottom of the list from the group? What would you, what would you put what, like if you were to do a ranking of this current ranking, where would you, what would be the last place for you? I mean, that's basically what the car you cut is.
I mean, same answer is the twins. Which is the twins. Okay. So twins is at the bottom for you? At the bottom. Yeah. Yeah. But again, like I've spent so much time with the WRX and I know how fun it is in any other conditions, like outside of the track too. I know that doesn't count towards this conversation, but look, this is why you need a gRED notebook.
Yeah, this is, this is, see, this is why you need a phone. Can't do this. Yeah, yeah. Alright. Still not drawing straight lines, but still it's fine. Yeah. So for me, I have the SI at the bottom and you have the, uh, you have the WX at the bottom. Yeah. Okay. Um, let's just ask [01:46:00] where, where do we think, let's just, let's look at the opposite of the si, uh, or not the opposite, but the, the alternative, which is the fit.
How high, where does the fit live on the list? Like, where does it live for you? Mm-hmm. Somewhere around the middle, because it's not, it's not like an absolute must have, but I, I really like it that it's an entry for almost anybody into having a lot of fun on track. Okay. So let's just say, and I say the same, I think it's like position, it's like position four or three.
Yeah, yeah. Right. Where does it live for you? I mean, it's hard, right? Because like, I, in some, in some lists I'd put the si really high up at the top, right? Mm-hmm. But I don't think I put the fit at the top, you know? So, see, this is this, this is what I was trying to get to. Yeah. Is like, I want the fit on the list, but the fit's not number one.
No. I like, I'd put, I'd put the si like if I was between those two, it's like, you gotta, you gotta put one of these two in number one. I'd put the SI in number one. You know, uh, just because of the, the practicality of everything that I know about like what tracking is like. Right, right. The, the, the fit like gets this [01:47:00] n this like kind of fun.
It's hero, it's like a, it's like a underdog hero. It's bordering a novel. Yeah. It's like that shouldn't do that. That shouldn't be like that. That shouldn't be that much fun. Right. The si is like, but again, this is the same intended isn. That's why I'm like, it's the modern Miata. Yeah. 'cause like I think that the Miata iss a great car.
I think that the fits a great car, but I also think that they get more credit than maybe do because they sort of are, they don't fit the traditional mold of like a race car or a sports car. Mm-hmm. To like the average automotive person. You know? I guess also out of everything on this list, it is the one thing that isn't intended to be a performance car.
No, no. I mean, you can't That is very true. Yeah. Can, can put Camra in the rear. Whoa. That's crazy. Wow. Solid beam. Yeah. Wait, really? Yeah. Like it doesn't, yeah, it's, I mean that's like a, that's like a Mark two 16 though. Yeah. Same thing. The way old trailing, it's like a you can, but it's difficult. Right? It's not like you can get a kit for it.
Pressure's on, I know. Are we about to kill the fit? I mean that, that, it almost seems like the swap. I think [01:48:00] we might be killing the fit with the si as we talk through it. Yeah. That at the end of the day, the fit is a really great novelty. It deserves to have been in conversation as long as, as past it put up a great fight.
It put up a great fight. But if you're really going at it and you're saying you have money to go build one track car. And you're not going to build, when you put it that way, it's different. It's different If you were gonna go race in like the spec fit series Sure. 'cause then there's a reason to go. But if you're just going to your local track and you're about to get smoked by GT three rss, uh, going around, would you rather be in a fit or would you rather be in the si?
And I asked you, I don't have the experience. No, you'd be in the si. Yeah. Right. So like you're, you're coming, you're coming to the, you know, like in the, in the fit Right. You need kind of need to be with your peers too, you know? Mm-hmm. And like, that's what makes it really fun as well. Right. That's a great point.
The minute you're not driving it in a spec series, and maybe this is where all that could all of a sudden be not fun at all. Right. This is because on a regular track day, you're not gonna have a bunch of other fits. Right? Mm-hmm. And this, you'll have any one of these. Right. And this is where like, I [01:49:00] think the romantic idea of the fit starts to fade.
Yeah. It's when show up to a track day and there are no other fits, it's still a really great choice. Yes. Yeah. Which is, it's made it to the final round and it's the sub 10 K King. It's still a really, really great choice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you do you have a problem putting it in last place? No. And killing it.
Do you have a problem putting it in last place and killing it if the si remains? I mean, I, I, my heart's breaking for, for, for both of I know. You know? I know. Like if you were to choose between the Fit and the twins on the final list, would you keep the fit above the twins? No. Right. Okay. I think we can make it official.
Yeah. The fit has been removed and struck from the list again. Very impressive. Fight for what it's, it also went from you and I both were like, yeah, it's in third place, third or fourth to, no, it's out. You put it in. You never know what these things you to have the conversation and you gotta think through the pieces.
It's super important to put it in context. All right, so we now have, we now have come down, we've knocked out the fit. We're in our top five or [01:50:00] what's in fifth place. What is the thing that would've also gotten knocked out? It seems like the twins was on your list. W Rx WX was on your list. Yeah. Still. So I think now it's just the conversation of WRX or Twin.
That's a really hard one 'cause it depends on where you are. But I think for most of the country you would put the GD last. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Don't, alright, so you guys outvote me. Yeah. I would put the GD above the twins, but that's only, again, it pains me. It pains me. 'cause I love the GDS. I just think it's so much time.
It's an all around more fun car. It is. It's more fun Stoplight. The stoplight, yeah. It's more fun like it like, but I don't know. The twin's also a really fun car. They're both really good. Again, like in the twins, if you start out in those and then you get money or you get a better car or a bigger car, you're gonna be more, well I will say one thing though, just from a track day side, it's way easier to get all your shit in a GD to the track.
That's true for you can set a spare set of wheels. That's true. In the back. You can fit a lot. You have a trunk space for toolbox jack, all of that. There's very little room in the, I think, I think that the [01:51:00] twins, because they're like. They sit in this space that's just below the totality of their potential.
Mm-hmm. You know, you're like, man, this is, this is good. Not great. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's good. Not great. It's like getting, getting a little bit more of a ding than it deserves because like, what else checks the boxes that those cars bring to the table? Nothing anymore. Nothing like nothing. Right. So what else?
I mean, WRX kind of like sits in its own, in its own world too, and purely on the fact that you can do twice as many laps stress-free. Yeah. In the twins versus the wrx, but which we've done. I mean, we have beaten the hell out of that car. God. But just the fact that they, that they made it right. That it, that it, that it got made.
Right. The WRX, like, uh, you know, as a, it exists, you know, as an Impreza it had a very strong case and still Right. An Impreza is just a car. Yes. It doesn't exist anymore. Yeah. Well, yeah. But you know, like when it, uh, when it, you know, that was the hot version, you know, of the Impreza. Right. The, the twins are just like their own thing.
We're making this. Yeah. You know, and I think that should [01:52:00] be commended. And, and that's the same thing. It's the reason why it made it onto the greatest driver's car list as well. Mm-hmm. Be of, well of a certain era because like it's one of the only currently made cars that gives you that it's the only really good analog sports cars.
Yeah. That's affordable. That you can buy without having to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy an analog nine 11. Yep. So, okay. Uh, alright. But so we all feel good though, the twins are in fourth. We cool with that? We repair that too. Gotta, I gotta think. Alright, so let's, I got, I gotta think about where the other thing, the rest of the context.
Yeah, the rest of the context. Right? So the rest of the context, so you've got the C five, you have the E 46. I'd put the C five in fourth. Oh, that's gonna be a fight. I don't think the C five is number one, but I don't think it's, I don't think it's number four. It can't be four. Oh, it can't be four. Like, think about the, think about the appeal, uh, you know, uh, too, right?
So like the C five is in consideration with us because we've driven it all. Right? Yeah. Like we've experienced all that stuff [01:53:00] and we're like, okay. You know, and we're of a certain age we're like, all right, I guess Corvettes, right? Mm-hmm. Like, think about the headspace that you would've been in 15 years ago, you know, uh, and, and even 10 years ago, you know, and thinking about that car, would you consider it even though you Absolutely not.
Even, even though you knew what it was capable of. Well, actually no. 15 years ago I would've, because, so even though I'm wearing a heartbeat of America right now, hey, you're really, you actually are like, shout out to Heat Wave for the collab. But, um. I was not a Corvette person, I was German Corte person.
I'm still not, I didn't really love Corts. I, I, I will say it, when I was a little kid, I loved the Corvette, but I loved like the Stingray, the original. Yeah. We love, but that era. That era. And, and I loved Corvettes when I was younger. My, my grandfather had one. It really is one of the cards that got me into, I almost bought a C four when I was young.
But, but as I got older, I was very much on the track to like wanna buy a nine 11. Like that was the car for me. Corvettes kind of fell into this weird world. We all know all the memes and the jokes about Corvette [01:54:00] guys. And then I drove the C six and I drove the C six multiple times side by side with nine elevens.
And I would, as a journalist, I would get out and be annoyed that I had to say that the Corvette was a more fun drive, a better drive. Or the number one thing I used to say about it was, it was more track ready. Yeah. Like I would get into a nine 11 that all of a sudden pushed into a corner felt soft, where the Corvette didn't feel soft.
And like, and I'm talking C six 'cause I was a generation, I was a journalist, but like C Five's similar esque. Mm-hmm. In a lot of ways. We had a C five at Hogan that was like a yard car, like super fun. And you look at it. Now in the world of drifting, there's a reason why it's become the new go-to car because it doesn't need an engine swap.
It doesn't really need much. No. Like, it doesn't even really need to be lowered. You do it because you have like, because it makes it look better. It's nice with a little more angle, but our yard car had nothing. Yeah. And it was a ripper and it was a, a ripper. It took three gens of the Corvette to convince us.
Yeah. Like three good gents. [01:55:00] Right. You know? Yeah. Yeah. So, so like, and, and, and Yes. Now, so now we're looking back on the C five and being like, oh, shit, I overlooked that. Yeah. For that many years, right? Yeah. Like, so, you know, um, so that's where I think like, it, it belongs on the list, but to like, to like go on the top it like, it just doesn't.
So here's the thing I would say, I think that we just start, we don't have to get all the top, but I would say that the E 46 is above the C five. Yes, a hundred percent. I just, around the E 46 has been cool since day one. It's been cool since day one. And then I would, my listeners has known this. I'm not a BMW guy.
I'm not either for whatever it is. Yeah. I just don't associate with the brand, but I can't ever deny that. They're just great driving. Yeah. Ultimate driving machine. Like there's a reason they claim that like they're really good driving cars. There's an amazing aftermarket for it. There's so many people racing them every weekend that if you go out to the track and you have a problem, there's probably someone in the paddock who can help you get a set up straight or whatever.
Because people have a ton of experience about that. Plus it's nice, nice to drive nice to the track in interior is great. Yeah. A bit more usable. Yeah. Four [01:56:00] doors you could get the four door. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, like to me, I would say that that edge is out the C five. The other one is, is that the consumables on the C five are a lot more expensive.
That that is true. Like brakes. That is true. Like clutch jobs. Like everything. Yeah. Tires are not cheap. Are that's a big tire. Are not cheap. You're running a big tire. Yeah. Um, and a lot of people, if you are getting into a budget race car because you have a long experience of racing cars, then you may be able to drive the C five to its limit.
But if you're just getting into it, you're probably not gonna have as much fun the C five as you would. An SI or something else because like you probably don't, it's not as accessible. Well, you're not gonna be able to drive it to like its mechanical limit with the size tire it has. Right. And what it, and how, and I will say from everything I do know about tracking Corvettes is even when you have them set up really well and a lot of stuff in them, they still have a lot of trouble putting power down.
Mm-hmm. So you do have to pedal a lot. Yeah. Versus, uh, E 46 like you're hammered down all the time. [01:57:00] So we're saying we all agree E 46 is above C five. Yep. Yes. We don't know where it falls. Yes. But we at least know that right now it lives above that. Do we think in any world the twins live above either the C five or the E 46?
Definitely not above the E 46. Alright. Okay. Not above the C five to me. So, so the only other car now is the Civic. So it's all about where the civic slots in to figure out this place. So is the Civic better than the cor. Yes. Oh, this is gonna, this is where the fight is. No. Yeah, yeah. No, no, it can't. Uh, I, I, I don't have, I don't have enough experience in the Civic, per se.
Yeah. But I have enough, I have more experience in a front wheel drive car on track. Yeah. Than I probably should. I've driven more of, I mean, that was always Vinny's joke was, Scott's really fast in production. Front wheel drive cars. It's like where I excel, we drive like actual [01:58:00] touring cars. I'm like, I don't wanna push that, that hard front wheel drive.
I won't fucking drive this thing on the edge. Oh dang. Yeah. Um, but it's not a C five vet, but that's just from the experience side on the argument, SI is probably an easier car to own, have more lap time out there. The si is the easiest car to own on the whole list. Right. Maybe the WRX. Right. Like, so, you know, like maybe the wx you're saying in terms of ownership, I'm talking about like track serviceability.
I'm talking about all the whole package. The whole package. Right. Because like what Sacra I would say the twins and the si are the two easiest cars on the group. I mean, the si the twins are pretty easy. The si has a real backseat. You can Oh, you're, yeah. Okay. That's side, I'm talking about the totality.
You're talking the whole package. Package. I was talking about the like consumable side of it, the maintenance side of it. Like, everything that goes into, they're probably pretty being able to go, they're, they're probably pretty similar. Yeah. You know, I think the si right. If I'm, if I'm, you know, thinking about the like.
I'm thinking about it from the, the, the entry point, right? Right. Like, I'm, I wanna buy, I wanna get a track car, it's my [01:59:00] car. You know, like what sacrifices am I making? Right? Like what, what am what am I balancing out? You know? And again, practical, practical view, you know, um, I'm gonna go ahead and say like, I'm gonna move forward pretending that the SI is an RSX for me.
Okay. Okay. If it was there, I would agree. Yeah. So if it was the RSX, because Squint. Squint, yes. Right. Squint. I'm t I'm putting my safety squint on. Yeah. Put, put Vaseline on the lenses. That's right. You know, one of the other factors is, is that like, once you do start getting fast, I didn't really think about this until now, is like, if you do start getting fast and you're fast in a vet, oh okay.
Vet guy's fast. If you're fast in a Civic or an RSX, it's like, yo, this dude's a hero. So like, this guy's awesome. That's a great conversation. 'cause if we right now went to the track and I haven't done a track day in a year and a half, uh, of all these [02:00:00] cars, I would probably jump in the twins or the SI to go out and turn laps just because it's been a bit.
Sure. Do you know what I'm saying? Yep. Like Right. Probably work up, back up and wanna get into the C five. Yeah. Probably the E 46 is the car. I'd be most excited to really to drive there. But I think like that group, um. Yeah. So there is there that, that, that does make a good argument of, you know, if you are more entry level or just mid-level, like, I think, or, or, or just old.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like, um, yeah, just looking for like kind of a more of a balanced weekend, you know, like a little bit. Right. Totally. Like, um, yeah, because in, in the C five, you'll probably also smoke your set of tires in a track day or two. Whereas in the, in the, the and pads and in the R-S-X-S-I, um, you're gonna go home and you'll be fine, and then you just go do your next track day again.
But you do get to tell your friends that you race Corvettes, which is either good or bad, depending on who you're, nobody's gonna [02:01:00] care. I think it's good. I think it's good now, right? Like, but like, I don't know, like coming from, you know, okay, so Corvettes were them when I was tracking. Let, let's flip the other way.
And I don't, I don't normally love to run right to the end, but like E 46 or, or SIE 46. E 46. So, so like, I think we all, I think we all, I think we all agree that the E 46 is number one. The E 46 is number one, so we now have to just fill out the middle. Wow. Yeah, we built the sandwich. Great. We gotta fill out the middle.
So E 46. Um, you got like 60, by the way. I, I like broke every rule of media, which is like, I gave away the end midway. Right Now you can just watch the fall off. No one cares about the middle, but it was anti climactic in a way. Anyway, cor, the Corvette fans are gonna care about where it falls. Yeah. So like we got that and the Honda fans, which is actually probably a big part of the listening group here.
Alright, so we have, we have, we have E 46 sitting there. We have at the top we have the, uh, what was it? The WX is at the bottom. Mm-hmm. Right. And then we have the [02:02:00] twins above the W Rx. Mm-hmm. And then it's, it's a race for second place boys. It's like competing against Sebastian Loeb. You are never gonna win.
Wait, this, oh. 'cause it's top five, right? The DSI is in second. So you think the si is in second? Mm-hmm. I, I'm, so that's clearly your vote. I, I, I, right now I, where the Corvette lies right now, for me, the Corvette is in second. But I am, I, I I'm not, um, against being convinced that the second, there's one more factor.
There's one more factor that I just thought of. If the si looked like a Volkswagen golf, it'd be in second place. I just, the R-S-X-S-I on track the community of people you're gonna be hanging out with. Whoa. I would way rather be hanging out still. That is true with the Honda kids because while the Drift community in Corvettes has become cool.
I don't know if anybody else, I don't think that the track community has caught up the same way. 'cause you show up and in the garage the other Corvette guys are gonna be dudes that take it super serious. Right? [02:03:00] And we're like, I'm faster than everybody. I got the most expensive tires. I got this kit, I got this supercharger, blah, blah blah.
Damn yours is stock. Whereas you show up in a Honda and you're on Cool Wheels, nothing else matters. Like, damn, that shit's stands out. Good color. It's a different, it's a different tribe. Right? Yeah. So that's why I think that the C five goes further on the list because do you know, it hasn't, like Corvettes have been in track days for forever, but that's a different track day.
You know what, I just, I was just gonna say that I think the Corvette's biggest problem here is that it's the giant amongst David's big time. Yeah. Because, because it's not expensive. Because you should be having the conversation of do you want a nine 11 or, or c, you know, or a C six. Right. But because Corvettes didn't keep their resale values Right.
So many of 'em, they, you, you're not comparing them Yeah. To like cars. Yeah. So like it is the beast amongst all of these cars. Yeah. Yeah. Which is like, we're the only reason it's in this group is because it's affordable. I, and, and I think at the end of the, like [02:04:00] if we, if we would've said entry level Yeah.
Budget car, we wouldn't have included in the group. 'cause it's like just outside of entry level. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's actually I think a lot more than that. Just outside. Yeah. I mean I've been thinking about this as like first time, you know, like, I'm getting a track car. I don't have one, I'm not getting another one.
Right. You know, I'm not doing a budget one because. Yeah, I'm selling this other one. Well, it used to be in it, but now it's like a little spendable. I have a budget to start be to get a track car to start. Yeah. Let me run the contrary. Yeah. Let me run the contrary to that though real quick. There is something to be said about the lifespan the Corvette could have for you.
Mm-hmm. Meaning you can really grow in per, oh, you could keep it forever. You could drive that car for 15 years. Yeah. And keep getting more and more into it. Mm-hmm. And do more and more to it. And when you could literally drive it to the point that you win time attack like it is a car. Yes, absolutely. It's a chassis that you could build to the highest, it is very complete twin turbo, like LS seven swap in that thing you do full arrow package, you do the full like, you know, plywood arrow package to that [02:05:00] bad boy.
Yep. And then it's, it's a killer. So, but then at the end of the day, you're still hanging out with the cor belt guys? It, I mean it is. It is. It is. Rear wheel drive, you know, which, so, I mean, I think. Where did, where, where are the twins chilling right now. Twins are in fourth. Hmm. So we've got, right now it's E 46 rear wheel drive at the top, potentially civic si front wheel drive in second, and then third place, C five vet, fourth place the twins rear wheel drive.
And then last place all wheel drive Ws. Here's, here's a weird thing for me, right? So like, I think that, um, the, if the civic goes second, then the Corvette can go next and the twins can go after. But if the Corvette goes above the civic, then like, I think the twins could like interchange with that too.
Right? Because if I think about E 46, um, you think the twins could interchange with what I think that the C five Yeah. Like, I think it, it could be E 46. I cannot stand for that. Yeah, [02:06:00] absolutely. I, I get your argument. Yeah. But again, we go back to this, the bang for the buck, like, man, C five on track's a good time.
And we're not, and we're not saying this is, and it's a great daily while we're not, these obviously aren't, you know, people who have a ton of track day experience. But there's also, we're not saying this is completely entry level either. I think if it was, we would steer everybody probably into a front wheel drive car to get up and go get going.
Right? Yeah. So this is like a cost then, then it's just fit, fit, fit, fit. Right, right, right. Yeah. Fit cup. So I think we got our answer. What was the answer? Uh, E 46 Si. Si C five. C5 vet. Okay. Twins. I'll accept that. Of course you will. You fought that. Yeah. Well, but well, you still think c you still think the si should be number one?
I think there's interchangeability in, in like the order of the list, right? So like you, you've got, you've got like some choices based off of your preference. Depends on person and region, right? So like you're like, I can get a real wheel drive German. Did I mention to you this is entirely subjective by three [02:07:00] edits?
You are one of them. Yeah. Yes, I do, but I'm thinking for the people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's reading the comments right now, like, oh, I can't believe this dude. No, I mean like, but yeah, but like that's, I mean that's my, been my position for the, the last 10 years is to think about I get to step away from this and go on the gravel.
You have to go meet your people. Yeah. So the last interchangeability that we'll bring up is, is there any world where the twins is above the C five vet, do you think? No. Not if the civic is second. I don't know what that It's like he he won one. Yeah, he won one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's playing a leverage game.
No, it's, it's, it's just, it's just like kind of like order of, of like choice. Right. Okay. I'm like thinking about, like, I'm looking at it like kind of in pairs and then an outlier, right? Because like if we look at that, it's like, you have two great choices at one and two. Right. You know, and then you've got two great choices in, in three and four.
And then you have the WRX. Damn. Which is, which is inclusionary. I take more of this slander. Wow. I'm not saying it's not a [02:08:00] good choice. A, but it's number five A man an inch. You give a man an SI in second place, which is actually an RSX. Yeah. And he takes a mind. Let's just, let's just cut to some beautiful time attacks.
Done in gd. Yeah. Yes. Thank you GD. Right here. Cut to that and let him remember how, how good that was in 2005 to two thousands. June Lemon, it's, and June. Hyper lemon is exactly what I, it's on the list. The fit is not, yeah. Yeah. You know what, no one has on their wall. Is a photo, a fit post here? That's a fucking on their wall.
Maybe Scotty Bands. Yeah, yeah, yeah. True. True bands got one. Yeah. Only as a joke. Okay. Yeah. So we're locking it in. I'm good with it. Let's lock it in. It's a lot. Here it is. I'll read it off from the bottom. In fifth place we have these Subaru, W-R-X-G-D. In fourth place we have the twins, AKA, the B-R-Z-F-R-S combo.
In third place we have the Heartbeat of America, the Corvette C five, second place, the [02:09:00] eighth gen, eighth gen Civic si. And in first place, the BMWE 46, 3 30 I, that's it. That is the list. It's strong. Everyone's like somewhat happy with it. I know. You prefer like, it just to be all Hondas, I feel. No, I feel good.
I, I mean like, uh, the fit, I think the fit like stayed on the list in the same way that it stays on the track and the same way that it, like, you know, that it like rose to that. Like everybody wants it there, but at the end of the day, but it's not supposed to be there. Supposed, it's never gonna finish first.
Everybody wants it there and, but it's not supposed to be there. Right. Yeah. And, and it's cool because it's not supposed to be there. Right. But you know, like this is a good squad. Yeah. Bunch of great honorable mentions if we missed anything. Drop it in the comments. We know you have opinions. Throw your list in if you want.
Get involved in the list earlier, you know, and maybe have a little bit more sway. Join the Patreon. We have a way bigger fight and arguing about that. And uh, also if you wanna listen to our goblin list, which is just like, just real [02:10:00] degenerate. Check car hop. This was like one in the morning. Yeah, you don't, and I'm just being evil.
You don't recommend this to anybody, but it's the things we would build. But I run would. Yeah. Like this is the wood list. Yeah. Yeah. So, and uh, and I said it again, I'll say it 10 times more. Chris, not only thank you for coming, but thanks for everything that you've done with good life. It is a huge, amazing part of the community.
You guys put on an awesome event and uh, maybe one day I'll have enough time to like actually race a car in it one day. I'd love that. I would love, I would love to race in GLTC too. Dude. Thank you. Huge, huge for the culture. I gotta pitch in idea too. It involves old Volkswagens, but We'll, we'll get to that.
Here we go. As it should. Yeah. Anyway, thank you very much. Big thanks to all the partners and leaders[02:11:00]
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