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The Tracks Nobody Sees, But Every Marketer Should Hear.
This podcast celebrates the hidden gems of marketing insight found across all professions—both within and beyond traditional marketing roles. Just as B-sides on a single contain brilliant tracks that are treasured by true fans, every profession contains marketing wisdom that isn't obvious at first glance but is incredibly valuable when discovered.
Tom Hootman (02:13)
Audrey, how you been?
Audrey (Brown) Finney (02:13)
Yeah,
I've been good. I've been moved out of the corporate life a little bit more into like the motherhood side, but it's been a roller coaster.
Tom Hootman (02:22)
Kids, two kids, right?
Audrey (Brown) Finney (02:23)
Two kids, they're three and five now, almost four. They're 18 months apart.
Tom Hootman (02:27)
Which one do you like better?
Audrey (Brown) Finney (02:28)
I have an answer.
Tom Hootman (02:29)
I know you have an answer because you're like this is what I'm excited to talk to you because you before we started
recording you had me dying laughing.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (02:36)
But maybe that
would change in like two years, you know, it'll be fluid
Tom Hootman (02:39)
Yeah, it's like a top, it's like an AP ranking in college football. You know the rankings are gonna move as the season, it's a long season.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (02:44)
Exactly. Week by week.
It's a long season, I'm learning.
Tom Hootman (02:50)
We're going to jump into the first question I ask everybody, maybe not the first question, but a question I ask everybody. And ⁓ I'll tell you something that Alaina told me. She's the producer of the podcast, of course. You know Alaina. I'll tell you after you answer. Three to four songs would be on your playlist to describe your career.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (03:07)
I knew you asked this question, so I put some thought into it. However, three to four feels aggressive. Three, two, okay, okay, okay. So the very first one that came to mind was I'm gonna throw back to the old Tim McGraw. She Never Lets It Go To Her Heart And that goes back to being in events, being now in hospitality. You're very much in the industry of feedback. And you have to really,
Tom Hootman (03:12)
You can do three, two, I don't care.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (03:34)
dial in on what comments matter, what comments don't, and you can't let it go to your head or your heart on affecting vibes. So it's like if you're in the moment, like when I used to do events, like if I'm getting feedback in real time, you can't let emotion play into it. You just gotta take it and roll if it's actionable. If it's some BS comment, then it's just like smile and say, okay, we'll take care of that, and then move on with your day.
Tom Hootman (03:54)
You could say, you could save, you could, yeah.
You could say it's bullshit. You could cuss fucking bullshit. It's like.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (04:02)
Well, I'm used to kids speak, so I don't do that.
Tom Hootman (04:04)
⁓ cover your ears, kids. ⁓
I remember that from the Hero Conf days because people would be commenting during the event and they're like little bitty snips and snipes about like just random. It's too cold in here. I don't like this speaker.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (04:19)
⁓ Like they
didn't have a yogurt parfait at breakfast like go get your own fucking breakfast and then join the free food that we have for you
Tom Hootman (04:27)
It's because what people don't see number one, it's like the culture today is that everything people think there are 10 feet tall and bulletproof on the internet. But also when you're at an event, you're literally outside the room reading these things. like there feels like they're like, they're there. They're kind of like taking a swipe at someone that doesn't exist. No, they don't see you in like four meetings a week running around like crazy for
Audrey (Brown) Finney (04:41)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (04:52)
11 months out of the year to put the event on and then to be like, man, no yogurt parfait. This is fucking bullshit. You're just like
Audrey (Brown) Finney (04:59)
Yeah, and it's
like, well, you're here for the content. So I get it. But also, I understand it was a full experience. We always wanted to give a full experience.
Tom Hootman (05:02)
Yeah
Yeah,
and that yogurt parfait costs like $17,000.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (05:11)
Yeah, you know, we take costs into account. You want a higher ticket price? Fine, I'll add the parfait.
Tom Hootman (05:16)
I like it. I like that you're the school bus driver already. Sit down. ⁓ Okay, Tim McGraw, that might be our first country song, by the way.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (05:19)
Yes. ⁓
Oh, well I can bring it back to pop because I had another one in mind. However, you can't read into the lyrics too much because it's a little, it's a, you might remember the artist Carly Rae Jepsen from the famed Call Me Maybe. That's not the song I have in mind. The song is her newer cut, or her newer song, Cut to the Feeling. And that is like, you get really excited about this one moment, aside from really reading into the lyrics. But.
Tom Hootman (05:23)
But that.
Ooh.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (05:46)
So Hero Conf and events I was in, like you grind, grind, grind, and then you get to like, at the very end is when you can relax. And so it's like cut to the feeling of like, then I can actually smile and bop around, whereas you have to be really head down, or I did, when it was like really in the throes of like events and scheduling and speakers being where they needed to be and logistics happening and taking care of attendees and transportation.
Tom Hootman (06:07)
When do really relax? it like the, is it the morning of the last day? Is it the end of the last?
Audrey (Brown) Finney (06:11)
It was the last
keynote, it's always, or it's like the last like session, like once everyone's where they need to be for the last time, that's when I can relax. And.
Tom Hootman (06:20)
Yeah, because you never know
where a speaker like the ending keynote can get like sick or hit by a bus or something or disappears like at the last minute.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (06:28)
Yeah, Yeah,
day two typically runs itself. So the morning of day two is far less stressful than day one. However, there's always something, even weather comes into play. This was before Hero Conf. I did educational publishing, teachers, or events for teachers where they would get their continuing education units. And they were large. They were always over thousand people. And like we had a tornado one time on day two, Oklahoma. We had to get everyone
into bathrooms, into hallways, you know, and so it's unpredictable.
Tom Hootman (06:58)
⁓ did the turn you were fine. It was just like the trade. Yeah.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (07:01)
We were fine, yeah.
However, there was a time someone wasn't fine and that was, she got hit by a motorized wheelchair. And so that one cut the back of her heel. It was uncomfortable. And she really made us think about it.
So it's unpredictable.
Tom Hootman (07:14)
It's very unpredictable.
was just last night, Jeff and I had drinks and we were talking about never a dull moment in this business because he recently had a, was going, he was talking about a situation that he was working with and it was like, well, we've never seen that before in all our years. And I, and I, were talking about how you just, you've never seen it all. And when I worked in restaurant, when I worked at Chi Chi's, was like a head of HR was in Bloomington doing like a visit or something. And we were sitting down to have lunch together.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (07:20)
No.
Tom Hootman (07:40)
And the topic came up of like things you've never thought you'd see before. And she had like a car that like rammed into the front of the restaurant and seriously injured several people. Like someone just pulled into a spot and didn't hit. like, she's like, I never thought I'd have a car drive through the restaurant. But then you're just like, what? It's just.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (07:51)
Mmm.
Yeah. And
what was it? It's probably three years ago in a Social Cantina in Bloomington that someone ran into like the fire hydrant. There's a water main break right there on the corner like flooded our whole restaurant. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, you never know. It's kind of life though, right?
Tom Hootman (08:10)
Yeah, because the restaurant, the front door is like right there.
Okay, ⁓
Tim McGraw, Carly Rae Jepsen.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (08:19)
I mean, I'd be remiss if I didn't add in a Taylor Swift song. I will proudly stand by Taylor Swift and being a Swiftie.
Tom Hootman (08:26)
Thank you, I knew you were going to
say that. That's what Alaina said to me before she said, you better brush up on your Taylor Swift again.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (08:32)
Opalite on the newest album. It doesn't really relate to my career journey. However, it's very much about making your own happiness. I think that's just a very good life message. And it's just a good, I do like the good album. Or the new album.
Tom Hootman (08:42)
Yeah. Do you like the new album? I asked Kayla the other day, you do like it. I said, it's getting a lot of,
it's getting a lot of grief.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (08:49)
And you know what, the people who are giving you grief, move along. If you don't like it, why dissect something that's making you so unhappy? Just so you don't like it, move along to something that makes you happy.
Tom Hootman (08:59)
Do you think ⁓ Kayla's theory, I believe, was that she's happy? She's recording an album and she's in this happy relationship and yeah, tortured. Torture's a strong word for someone who's billionaire poet society. I don't want to talk too much shit because the Swifties will come after me. But hey, no such thing as bad press. So those three, do you have any other songs? Okay, okay.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (09:07)
Yeah, she's not tortured anymore.
Tortured Poets Society or Department. yeah. Yeah, they will.
I don't have a fourth in mind.
I'm gonna go with those three.
Tom Hootman (09:26)
There've been a lot of
Taylor Swift. We put these into a master playlist that's largely un-listenable because it's all over the place, but there's a shit ton of Taylor Swift. And then because Oasis just did their reunion tour through the US, Megan and then Aaron Levy were all picking Oasis songs. So it's like an Oasis Taylor Swift list, which is already the dichotomy is like, and then a little bit of.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (09:41)
⁓ yeah.
solid.
Where can
I find this playlist Spotify?
Tom Hootman (09:52)
Um, I'll send you a link to it. Yeah, it's on them. I believe it's on the, um, the Mixtape Digital Spotify account. I'll send you a link. Um, real quick, cause everyone, I know one of the reasons why I'm very, I appreciate you being on the podcast is because Hero Conf Brighton just wrapped up. You used to run Hero Conf when Hero Conf was our event. And I was like, how timely. And then also your names come up a few times when people ask me.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (09:59)
That could be entertaining.
Tom Hootman (10:17)
I've had two people ask me if I was coming to Brighton Hero Conf, and I was like, I'm not going this year. Startup life, bootstrap, baby. And they were like, oh, we're gonna miss you. I missed the old event. And a couple people mentioned you by name because you became like ubiquitous with Hero Conf. And you were a part of the Hanapin team, but you were Hero Conf through and through. And I know that you probably could list if we sat, writing it out like.
probably up to like 85 people who came to every event who you just, yeah. But so like you've been out of digital marketing for a bit now. So I thought, tell us a bit about Finney Hospitality.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (10:45)
yeah, the regulars.
Sure, so yeah, I'm now in hospitality industry, Finney Hospitality Group. We own and created four restaurant concepts. We have Memphis barbecue, like dry rub, home cooking, really good sides. We have a craft beer bar with our own brewery. We brew our own beer, which is amazing. Nefarious Nectar, 9 % delicious.
We have Social Cantina, which is modern Mexican. It's so good and the brand we're really focusing on growing right now. And then we have, we bought the rights to, it was a classic Indiana University sports bar. The current owners back in like 2015 wanted to sell, the university wanted to land. They didn't want to continue and like move the location anywhere else.
So my husband Nathan was like, hey, that's an opportunity. He bought the rights to it, sat on it for four years until the perfect location came up and then reopened a modern, but tried to keep the classic charm of Yogi's which was very much like the cheers vibe of Bloomington. Yes, the classic Yogi's.
Tom Hootman (12:00)
Yogis was my bar back in the day. Yeah, like everyone,
mean, huge news when you bought the rights and reopened it, because everyone was excited about Yogis. And it was, yeah, it was the spot after we got out of work, 1 a.m., we're all meeting at Yogis. And there would be like literally everyone who worked at ChiChi's, we were probably all stank of deep fried chips and tacos. It's like when back in the day when you're 23 years old, and you're like, we need to go out and get.
fucked up as quickly as possible straight to Yogi's. Yeah, Yogi's is an institution.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (12:29)
Yeah,
was under a lot of scrutiny to reopen because we knew we couldn't reopen it. You can't recreate that old charm. You can't recreate a dive bar. It just naturally happens and it falls into being that brand that it is. So we were very nervous on what direction to take it in. And so it has a modern flair to it now and it's, would say a little more college-y than what was preferred, but it's still a staple.
Tom Hootman (12:54)
You know, it's like, I'd say it's more,
⁓ it's cleaner. It's such a nasty ass old. I remember with the owners sold it to somebody and then those people like then, then IU bought the building, but like the last couple of times we went in, we were like, she's got to be on her last. This building is just, you could hear it wheezing. Like it just was the building was in.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (12:58)
Yeah, it's cleaner.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, but oddly that's
what people love when you have kind of that, I don't know, that comfort creature of a place. It's what people love.
Tom Hootman (13:19)
Yeah, well, I like the new location. I like it being downtown. wouldn't work where it was at. It wouldn't work there because all the kids wanna live downtown in luxury apartments and they don't rent rickety old houses out in the neighborhoods anymore.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (13:22)
Thank you.
Downtown now. Yeah.
No, they got it too good. So within those four concepts, we have 10 and a half stores. Our 11th opens in November. Broad Ripple Social Cantina
Tom Hootman (13:36)
Yeah, so welcome to the real estate corner of the Marketing B-Sites.
Probably downtown Indy. Ish. Downtown ish.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (13:48)
Yes, downtown Indianapolis.
Yes. And then we also added to the portfolio a car wash in 2022. And that was born out of COVID when we had no income and all the restaurants shut down. And Nathan was like, I need to diversify our portfolio. And so we were trying to create an idea that was kind of pandemic proof because we had no idea if it was going to happen again or how long it was going to last. so.
wheels got to turning and when.
Tom Hootman (14:17)
Is it touchless or is it a brush?
Audrey (Brown) Finney (14:19)
Yeah, express tunnel through on a conveyor belt. It's a pretty little thing. It's in Columbus, Indiana.
Tom Hootman (14:23)
So I love that you have
like a dozen restaurants or so and then a car wash.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (14:30)
I know, people are just like, Breaking Bad. Are you laundering money? And I was like, no, not yet, at least. ⁓ Yeah, but we are hoping to grow the car wash at some point, but we can build two Social Cantinas for the cost of one car wash, so you know gotta weigh out all those margins. They're not cheap. If you do it well, if you do it right and you do it well, you can build a cheap car wash with concrete, cinder block, but there's no appeal to that. It's a competitive market.
Tom Hootman (14:34)
Not yet. There's no money to launder yet. It's all right. We'll get there.
Car washes aren't cheap.
Yeah,
very competitive market. That's only getting more competitive. There's like three of them near me now and there were zero.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (15:01)
I know and everyone's like you get excited when a new site is getting built and then you see it's a car wash but it's an attractive business model and so.
Tom Hootman (15:10)
yeah, it's passive income for the most part, right? ⁓ It's funny, say you... It's funny that you dismissively said it's, you get excited about something new coming in and then you find out it's a car wash. It's car washes and self storage. You're like, what's that? self storage, boring.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (15:13)
Yeah. A lot goes wrong mechanically though. I underestimated that.
It is!
Yeah, I know. I understand why it's happening, but then even as a consumer, I'm like, okay, or bank. Like who even goes into banks anymore?
Tom Hootman (15:36)
Yeah.
How long were you at Hanapin and Brainlabs
Audrey (Brown) Finney (15:40)
Just shy of seven years. Yes.
Tom Hootman (15:42)
Yeah. What do you miss
about the most about being around and working around digital marketing?
four and a half day work weeks.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (15:46)
Okay,
the people, so I do miss the people. really do. I really miss the nerd culture a little bit because digital marketers are so analytical. But what I would love is when they would get analytical on like off topics, not related to work, where it was like, what was it? One time, Tanner, fucking Tanner, was like charting.
Tom Hootman (16:10)
Tanner!
Audrey (Brown) Finney (16:12)
the spelling of possum over time and like how often that was searched and what spelling, because then it became an office debate. Are we putting the O on possum? Are we not putting the O on possum? then, know, I like those, I don't know how to call it, like not work, work conversations. And when people just like deep dive into senseless things, and that definitely happens from digital marketers and just those data driven.
Tom Hootman (16:34)
Yeah
Super nerds, data driven super nerds. Yeah, I mean, it's almost like a very powerful weapon, but sometimes it gets pointed at the spelling of possum over the history of time.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (16:37)
Super nerds.
Yes.
You know, it's a smart wit, you know, about intellectual nerdy data people. And I really enjoy that level of humor.
Tom Hootman (16:54)
Um, when you think back on those years with Hero Conf because you were, mean, I, I was there for all of them. And I remember the Indy one when it first started, when Pat, like, that was like, let's do a conference. And I was like, what? To seeing it grow. I mean, what do you think made it special? Cause the people, I said the 85 people on the list who were there every single year, like people still talk about the old event all the time.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (17:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think it's that sense of community. it's, it's, ⁓ it's like, it was built for the community. It was it was built by the community. It was just very much community driven. And that was
It's an obvious statement to say in-person events are for that person-to-person relationships, but it really was the people that made it so fun. It was cool to see the people, they hadn't seen each other since the last Hero Conf. People engage online and they're blog writers and on Twitter and all sorts of professional methods of communication, but then they get to see each other. I would even hear people say they met their digital marketing hero in real life and seeing those connections.
come alive and network and grow and turn into like, like you said, 10 years later, like still connected. It's just really cool to see. And I've, it was cool to be a part of that. And so the sense of community felt very authentic. It felt very genuine. It felt very deep. It didn't feel surface level. And I don't think it was surface level. And I, I enjoyed cultivating.
Tom Hootman (18:21)
Yeah, I mean, was your you were the matriarch, right? Like you were.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (18:25)
Yeah, later on. Nate Hollander was a part of it, so I can't take all the credit until he left. But then I got to run with it a little bit,
Tom Hootman (18:28)
I love Nate. Yeah.
He was the patriarch. was matriarch, right? Shout out Nate. Hope all's well.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (18:34)
Yeah, true. Fuck the
patriarchy. ⁓
Tom Hootman (18:40)
So
Tell me about the worst.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (18:41)
It was fun.
Tom Hootman (18:45)
You can name names. I don't give a shit. Like the worst attendee speaker, just person I have. I have one that comes to mind and I didn't even meet this person of like just total shit heads. There are a couple of total shit heads, but like one total shit head that comes to mind. I'll share mine after, but like, is there, I don't, I'll go first if it gives you, I'll buy you time. Like the worst, just the shittiest, I just like, you're at an event. Just don't be a shitty person.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (19:01)
was gonna say, I wanna hear your story.
Tom Hootman (19:10)
Someone when Will Reynolds was the keynote and Will's great. Will's going to speak from the cuff, authentic. And there was a, there was a group of attendees from a specific company that were really shitty in the moment. And actually during the keynote, were complaining about him cursing in his keynote. And I just never wanted to like, just slap someone. It's like, you're in a, you're in a
Audrey (Brown) Finney (19:14)
Yeah.
Mmm.
I remember that.
Tom Hootman (19:37)
adult. Are you kidding me? Like, it wasn't like bad, he would just drop the occasional like, fuck shit, bullshit. And they were like, in the moment for like sent from my iPhone, like I am offended at the language in this. It's like the median age here is like 33 years old, we're all fucking adults. And it's digital marketing. So like
Audrey (Brown) Finney (19:38)
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
And he was making great points. So just listen to the content.
Tom Hootman (20:01)
Great points!
And I just, to this day, I think about that company and it's like, I'm not gonna name the company, but it was one of those, of course it's them. Very sanctimonious group.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (20:13)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I can parlay that into mine because I do have something and it was the closest thing I've come to ever personally being canceled. And it came from a panel at Hero Conf and I got called out for it lacking diversity. And let me tell you, the people that came after me don't know the effort that went into leading up to that because I know we need diversity. I value diversity, cultural, racial, gender.
all across the board. However, these people, I was insulted that people thought I didn't try first before I slapped four white males up there on stage, know, not physically, I put them up there. So I was, yeah, people came up, it's kind of a Twitter war when people were like too afraid to say anything and then I think we did get a few emails here and there. But it was not like without effort. So like we had,
tried a couple women, they didn't come on. I tried a couple people of color, they couldn't make it. And so it's like how just the cancellations and the speaker engagements fell into play. We could either cancel the panel, but it was pretty valuable content, or we could have four perspectives from white males. And I understand how it looks at a glance, but I was very insulted that people didn't assume the best intentions, like didn't lead with that.
Because they know us as a company, they know us as a brand, they knew me as a planner a little bit. And so I was just like, I felt like my character was attacked unnecessarily. And it wasn't for lack of effort, it was just kind of how the cards came into play. And I remember the names that started that conversation. But I'm not gonna name names.
Tom Hootman (21:34)
Yeah
I know one of
the people and that's difficult because I remember the lead up because I was never like, I was around because our team was like going to have a booth. We were going to be at the event. Kayla was emceeing. We were selling sponsorship. So it really was like a group effort. but I wasn't in all the planning meetings, but I thought you would hear it. It was just like, there were like 30 of us in that office, right? And the probably 70 employees total, but like,
Audrey (Brown) Finney (22:15)
You
Tom Hootman (22:17)
standing around the coffee maker, you like just hear some of the trials, travails and like frustrations that you run into. I remember every year, like the diligence and effort you put into as much diversity as possible and how it ended up being tough because if you put out a call for speakers and I'm making numbers up, but like 200 speakers submit pitches,
Audrey (Brown) Finney (22:29)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (22:38)
175 of them, again, making numbers up, are like white males. it goes back to, know, Kayla Kurtz and I talked about this on a previous episode when she was rightfully so giving me shit about being the first woman on the podcast. And I'd had two or three women who canceled or said like, hey, I don't think I'd be a fit who would have been great fits. And it goes back to that the adage of like that, that colloquialism of if
Audrey (Brown) Finney (22:42)
Right, yeah.
Tom Hootman (23:02)
If some random white guy sees a job posted online, they're like, sure, fuck it, I'll apply. But a woman is more inclined to not apply unless they feel like they're a perfect fit for it. And there are no perfect fits for anything. And I remember those conversations about Hero Conf about really trying to drive as much diversity and inclusion and it being difficult based on the sheer numbers game of, we wanted, I think it's 50 % diversity, right? Like we wanted to make certain, like it was a big number. like, but when you have
Audrey (Brown) Finney (23:06)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We did strive
for it.
Tom Hootman (23:29)
when you have 25 out of 200 or whatever that are that that even would fit that qualification, you're like, we either take all 25. And some of them, I'm sure you had some pitches from all walks of life that weren't great, who were like two lines and like, here's what I want to talk about. And you're like, do I or sales pitches is a big one where you can tell right out of the gates, they just want to talk about their platform. And you kind of backed into a corner. And I think the thing that's
Audrey (Brown) Finney (23:43)
Okay.
or sales pitches and we weren't gonna do that either.
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (23:55)
rightfully so should frustrate you. should be, you have every right to be upset about is that people don't see the amount of work that goes into it and the effort you put in and they don't assume positive intent. Like no one to sit there and go, man, this is weird. Four white dudes in sport coats and jeans. And, but I know that Audrey and the team must've tried their damnedest to have diversity here. It's immediately goes to like, what the fuck?
Audrey (Brown) Finney (24:02)
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah,
we can go off submissions. mean, that's where we start when we're doing speaker selections. But then if we did feel like we were lacking diversity or we knew a strong woman in the space or we knew just other people that were doing great in blogging but had never taken, know, had the confidence to move on to like the stage or speaking engagement, we would go after those people and invite them to pitch. Be like, hey, we think you would be a great fit. Like we're trying to, like you said,
maybe people who felt like they were 80 % qualified but needed to be 100 % before they were all in. You know, we tried to go after those people and would personally find contact information, try to email, try to get them on stage. And so it does, yeah, the speaker selection is very hard. And I do think Hero Conf made a name for itself for really having the meat and potatoes of actionable content. mean, that's very much what I was proud of, what we like strive to give. I mean, behind the networking and the connection.
your company is paying a decent amount of money for you to learn something applicable.
It all kind of just like goes back to we tried. Hard
Tom Hootman (25:20)
Yeah, you try. And
sometimes people don't see that effort. And they're assholes. Judgmental assholes who didn't put in the work themselves. On Twitter, of all places. Since Twitter, still Twitter to me. ⁓ Along those lines, tell me a time that something at an event went horribly wrong but ended up becoming one of your favorite memories. Or turned out great. On the fly.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (25:23)
Yeah. Yeah. On Twitter. Or X. Sorry. It was Twitter at the time. Yeah.
I couldn't think of one for this one. I don't think-
Tom Hootman (25:44)
Really, like there's,
you're just such a great event planner, guess that doesn't, nothing goes.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (25:48)
Honestly, if
there was something that went horribly wrong, odds are I've blacked it out. Like I refuse to live in that mental chaos and I've probably just protected myself and forgotten it.
Tom Hootman (25:58)
Yeah.
When I also think there's probably a million little things that go wrong, like, like a bus shows up late to take everyone to like an excursion or something or like the bar you show up to that's going to host forgot you were going to be there but they pull tables together and pull it off like shit like that in the moment feels like an emergency disaster but reality. ⁓
Audrey (Brown) Finney (26:09)
Hell yeah!
Yeah.
Yeah.
I guess I can think of one, pre-HeroConf day, so when I was doing these teacher events, which were larger scale, because they were whole districts, my MC got violently ill the morning that she had to go on. And I was a young buck, I was maybe 22, and I had to step in to the MC role. And if anyone knows me, I am a behind the scenes.
even like doing this, I was like, Tom, I'm not gonna like this, because I like to execute behind the scenes, the spotlight is not for me, I'm not great, just off the cuff, like making small talk with everyone, making jokes, being crowd pleaser. So I was mortified, and we did not have much of a staff. We didn't like have a sales team that could do it, we didn't really have other people that could step in as the event planner.
anything that goes wrong comes back to me and my solution was no one else can do this but me as much as I would love to run away. I had to do it and so as much as I hated it in that moment, I do think it was a growth piece for me and so that one really sticks into my brain.
Tom Hootman (27:31)
love you so much. And I know when you started when you I've when you said you had to MC I know there is no place you'd rather little place you'd rather not be than the MC
Audrey (Brown) Finney (27:37)
Look at that!
Yeah.
No, then on the stage, no. Not for me.
Tom Hootman (27:45)
Hey
everybody, I'm Audrey. I'm your emcee.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (27:47)
I'd probably just like
do a tap dance if I didn't have a script. I don't know. I can't just like shoot the shit with people up there the way people can.
Tom Hootman (27:53)
You're not a shoot- shit shooter necessarily. You're not big on the small talk. You like the brass tacks person.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (27:56)
I'm not a computer.
I'll get to the point. I'll tell you what I need and how we're going to do it.
Tom Hootman (28:03)
⁓ along those same lines, being a brass tacks, straight shooter, is there a habit or a principle or like an odd rule that you follow in your work day or that you've always followed that shapes how you are successful? That is like your little rule of thumb that you're like, every time I do this, it works.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (28:19)
I need to pause for a second because I'm kind of forgetting what I had in
Tom Hootman (28:20)
I'll give you an example
while you're paused one of the things I always bring up about Kayla Kurtz who I love She it's the it's the notepads with the highlighters like she has a very specific old-school system Where she highlights things in different colors based on what she needs to get done today versus tomorrow And it's and she has a small notepad and then the large notepad. I don't know how this whole thing It's some weird thing she's got but I know from working with her that
Audrey (Brown) Finney (28:33)
yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (28:45)
If I asked her, I was like spouting off things we needed to get done, a lot of times I will like snooze those emails now to like, okay, I gotta make sure to follow up on this because a lot of stuff falls through the cracks. Nothing ever fell through the cracks with her. And it was like her little system.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (28:55)
Mm-hmm.
No, she was incredible.
She was, and actually I need to throw back to the whole cancellation conversation because Kayla went to bat for me on Twitter during that whole escapades and that's what she would do. You'd expect nothing less from her. She's a loyal, strong, smart, amazing person, which I was, it was even just recently, like we were talking about Taylor Swift on text just like last week, two weeks ago. So I love that we are still connected in that way. But.
Tom Hootman (29:11)
Mm-hmm, totally.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (29:24)
So yes, shout out to Kayla in all the ways she was amazing at what she does did, X, Y, and just as a person. She does, and that is a wonderful thing. I don't know, I don't know. I go back to this one saying that I live by a little bit of just pay attention to what gives you energy, and I think that can parlay into personal and professional, where it's like,
Tom Hootman (29:28)
always, she always stands up for what she believes in, which is a wonderful thing.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (29:46)
Okay, if something's dragging you down or there's a project or there's like a client relationship or you know, something that's just not going well with an employee and if it's a drag on your energy over and over again, it's gonna not lead to something successful. And so it's like, figure out a solution. find solutions to things that are zapping your energy. And then elevate the things that are or find ways to like pivot what's not into a way that is. And so.
I kind of live by that with personal relationships, professional relationships, kind of the workload. You don't like it? If you're in a position to delegate it, delegate it. It'll create a better result. It'll create more momentum and efficiency. So pay attention to your energy. A little woo woo, but.
Tom Hootman (30:25)
Pay attention to your
energy. Well, chances are, why I love that is that it's, if it's zapping your energy, chances are whoever you report to, so if you report to the CEO, it's probably zapping their energy as well. yeah, so in essence, you're solving problems multiple layers up just by solving your own.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (30:36)
Yeah, the domino effect for sure.
Tom Hootman (30:41)
So you've shifted into restaurant and I I love restaurants. I thought I was gonna be a restaurant manager for the rest of my life like I She's coming back. Yeah, it's gonna be a competitor of Social Cantina, I guess ⁓ You don't know how many people have sent me that article or information or brought up Hey, you know Chi Chi's is coming back my friend group all of my friends all the married couples I know met
Audrey (Brown) Finney (30:48)
Well, you can't, Chi Chi's opening again, you saw?
I don't know, we'll see.
Tom Hootman (31:08)
when we worked together at Cheechee's and have gotten married. I met my wife there. And it's interesting to hear them all like, hey, let's get the band back together. Like, no, I am not. Those days are long gone. You know, you start giving people hepatitis and killing people in Pittsburgh, next thing you know, it's all over. You can't wash hepatitis off green onions. You have to cook them. And it was the scant of green onions on everything that, anyway.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (31:15)
Yes. It was good. It really was good though. I remember eating it at a Chi Chi.
Bad reputation.
Tom Hootman (31:34)
I could still make a hell of, I mean they taught me how to roll a burrito. I am phenomenal.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (31:38)
What was the
corn, like a, what was that called? Corn cakes? Corn, God, those were good.
Tom Hootman (31:40)
Crank it.
Yeah, we used to make fun of people who would get the light enchiladas, no rice, sub, double corn cake, which is just all it was was corn and cornmeal and butter. It was like, let's get the light inches with 17 ounces of butter.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (31:48)
cream cheese
Butter.
Tom Hootman (31:56)
the little scooper came up scooping it. huh, huh. I spent way too many years on the line. So there, was talking about on LinkedIn, it comes up a lot, like the whole restaurant people can do anything, right? Like give me someone who's worked in a restaurant sense of urgency, being able to read a room. I mean, what do you think about, what is it about hospitality work that makes people transition so well into other careers?
Audrey (Brown) Finney (31:57)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, like a little dollop of ice cream. Yeah.
Hmm.
think when you look at, like if I look at our team and people that have moved on and, you know, we get a lot of younger out of school, you're trying to make rent, you got to do what you got to do, you jump into a restaurant job, they're available, and then they go on to have great careers. And I think the ones that excel the most in my eyes all carry the characteristic of empathy. And I think in hospitality, you have to care.
For the guests, it translates to caring for a client. It translates to caring for your employer. It translates to caring for the work you're producing because it's like rippling into how other people are feeling and wanting to be proud of what you're doing because a little bit of a people pleasing I think comes into play. I think it's the depth of care in a hospitality environment because you want
to provide an amazing guest experience and that kind of translates into other relationships.
Tom Hootman (33:16)
That's really good. You think it's like a bite size, bite size, no pun intended, a bite size example of client success in like a one hour like window.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (33:25)
Yeah, I would think so, and I think...
Yeah, I don't know. don't know where to go with that one, but...
Tom Hootman (33:29)
I mean, I also think too that there's, it's high stress and it teaches you workplace camaraderie. I think that teaches how to have each other's backs, run each other's food, pre-bus other people's tables. Yeah, communication. There's an element of like, you can't do it alone. So like you can literally handle your section alone, but there are moments that you're in the weeds and you just need help. I...
Audrey (Brown) Finney (33:38)
yeah, the communication.
Yeah,
you're relying on a host, you're relying on the kitchen, like you're relying on the line, you're relying on the runner, the busser, like it's very much a collaborative effort.
Tom Hootman (33:57)
Yep. And I think it teaches, going back to the, it's skews to people right out of school or still people in school. It's like their first taste of working in a professional, very unprofessional professional environment. There are themes of like, of working in a restaurant that translate into an office that, mean, talking to people, we have people who just graduated who this is like their first job is at Mixtape Digital and talking to, when I talked to the Kelly School of Business, it's like,
Audrey (Brown) Finney (34:07)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Tom Hootman (34:22)
When I talk about, cause I don't know shit about shit, but I talk about, I know how to run agencies and what it's like working in an agency and people tend to like the students tend to light up and have a bunch of questions about that. And I realized that if they don't get a job or have to get a job while they're in school, they don't get any of that until they're out. So like they come into their first professional environment and you don't, all you know is what you've seen on TV, which is a horrible place to learn what the workplace is like, cause it's not the office and.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (34:37)
Mm-mm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (34:50)
You have to learn how to read a room and have EQ and when to ask for help and when people might need help but don't ask for it. And those are things you just kind of pick up intrinsically by being in the weeds at 8.30 on a Saturday night graduation weekend.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (35:02)
Yeah, graduation weekend is still our busiest weekend of the whole year. It's crazy. is nuts.
Tom Hootman (35:08)
It's just nuts. It's like move in day. Move in day was always tough because we always forgot it. And
it's a random Wednesday in August and you would be, I would be driving from downtown to the East side to go to the restaurant and you would turn on the third street and you just run into traffic and your heart would sink because it's Wednesday and there's someone going the wrong way with a New Jersey plate on their car. ⁓ Shout out East Coast Safety School.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (35:24)
And then you see someone going the wrong way on a one.
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (35:33)
And you would just like, because you knew there were three servers, one line cook and a three legged dog running the place that day and you didn't schedule enough and you're like, ⁓ shit, it's gonna be like a Saturday for three hours.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (35:38)
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (35:43)
talked about earlier in careers and formative years.
Can you tell me something about something you held like a belief you held dear early in your career about success or performance that you now kind of think is bullshit?
Audrey (Brown) Finney (35:54)
That one probably goes back to book smarts for me. Like I just thought if you were book smart in high school, then you were going to be successful. And now in the real world, you realize how much further street smarts gets you. And the book smart.
It doesn't teach you like the emotional intelligence
Tom Hootman (36:10)
You could take the smartest person in the room, but if they don't have the EQ and can't hold a conversation or make small talk and we joke about how you hate small talk, but like you could still make small talk, right? Like there we've, we've both been around and I think worked with some insanely smart people. You take for granted what comes easy to you, whether that's book smarts or whether that's, conversations or relationships or client services. Like there are, ⁓
there are superpowers that are different across each individual.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (36:39)
Right, and getting an A on a paper does not translate with working collaboratively and being able to use the emotional intelligence of people management or handling anger or conflict or communication in terms of just a workplace. I think there's very few jobs where it is so siloed, you're not working with anyone else, but when it comes to school and then they have you do group projects, but it doesn't mean anything. But it's like...
grades only get you so far. And especially in this day and age, like I just think a college degree, unless you're going into a very niche profession that requires like a medical, a law, like an engineering, know, something like really extreme, when you go into the creative sides of certain professions, it's not as valuable as it, I once thought it needed to be, you know? And so when you see or hear...
people not liking school when I was younger, I'd be like, they're going nowhere. But then I'm like, ⁓ no, some of the, like even Nathan, my husband, like he was a solid C student, solid C. And then he was a business genius, you know? And then I was just like, ⁓ wow, okay. That didn't translate, you know? So it was always interesting to see.
Tom Hootman (37:44)
Yeah, there's,
it's, it's a fantastic answer because it's, you think about school, it's, it's basically the same. Like you learn the set of rules to be successful in school. study hard. can test. Well, I show up. Well, I know that if it's a, if it's a midterm, I have to study harder and you kind of learn your systems. And I think that there are, there are obviously outliers where like you could study your hardest in a class and it just.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (37:56)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (38:09)
you aren't getting it and you're not going to do as well. everyone I've known who was a great student figured out a way to be a great student at everything. And then you get out of that into a different environment with intangibles and outside impacts and emotions and feelings. like you just the best way to sum it up for me is like like the rules don't apply. And sometimes you just lose. Sometimes you win. Sometimes the wrong person wins. And it's almost like like
Audrey (Brown) Finney (38:17)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (38:35)
it's not fair anymore. Like you can't like, you don't can't control it all. And anytime you have to influence and convince and figure out problems that are unique and individualized that are every time it's different. It's a completely different set of rules. And some people thrive at that who didn't thrive in being a student. And I think that there's an element of that, that it's digital marketing. always say like,
Audrey (Brown) Finney (38:38)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (38:57)
The crux of some of the roadblocks that agencies run into is to get started in this business. 99 % of the time, you're a subject matter expert. We take someone who's 22, we plop them and say, congratulations, we're gonna teach you to be a genius at paid social. And they manage paid social, then they have their own clients, then they move up and they have larger clients, and then they're like one of your go-to subject matter experts, they're helping on pitches, and it's all expertise, expertise, expertise, and then we promote them to be a people man.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (39:13)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (39:26)
congratulations, now have direct reports. By the way, you've never had a direct report before, we really haven't trained you how to do it and people are impossible to manage because everyone's different and someone can be great and sometimes the vibes just are off and you don't get along with someone and you have to have really uncomfortable conversations and you can be totally right and still be wrong to them. And the Peter principle kicks in and they're like never the same.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (39:26)
shock to the system.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (39:49)
Because yeah, like we take subject matter experts and we promote them into personnel management roles, which I think downplays the importance of, again, that other side of it, which is relationships, managing emotions, managing other people's emotions and finding solutions where there are none.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (40:03)
Yeah, pivoting, like the solution piece, it's not black and white, know, and school is right or it's wrong when in real life it's gray 90 % of the time.
Tom Hootman (40:13)
Yeah.
How are your grades in school? Let's talk about those real quick.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (40:16)
was actually a pretty good student, but that's why I went into the role that I did because it was very checklist based, know, it was very task oriented. Aside from like being on site, I didn't have to work with like too many people. I had enough skill that I could work with people I'm comfortable with. Like I report to who I needed to report to. You know, we had a team of three or four. That's my comfort. And I was able to kind of work at my own pace.
And that's why I like event planning. I just got to be done by showtime.
Tom Hootman (40:46)
It's gotta be by showtime. And then relax when the last keynote goes on the last day. That's all it takes. Audrey, thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. I love catching up. I know everyone's gonna enjoy hearing from you again because you've deserted all of us, dessert, and moved into restaurant. But also, you work in a Social Cantina One of your chains is a Mexican restaurant. it's like, to me,
Audrey (Brown) Finney (40:51)
That's right, yeah.
You're
I know!
Tom Hootman (41:10)
I don't know if you've seen me or heard me say this before, like people used to be crying in the bus stand at ChiChi's because they were so overwhelmed, because it was so busy. And we had a saying that we created that was like, hey, like we're just making tacos. Like I used to, my old team at BrainLabs still says it. So like to this day, like you're just making tacos. Just making tacos, my friend. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much.
Audrey (Brown) Finney (41:18)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just making tacos.
It's true.
Thank you for having me.