Trademarks + Poker = Marketing Gold, How Being Yourself Prints Trust

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Are you a law firm owner looking for tips on growth? In this episode of the Maximum Lawyer Podcast, Tyson chats with Andrea, a trademark attorney, shares her journey from growing up in a low-income family to founding her own firm serving small businesses. She discusses the challenges of entrepreneurship, balancing family life as well as her personal growth in emotional intelligence and risk-taking.

Andrea shares how small, incremental changes over time work better than massive shifts. Part of growing in business is making small changes that lead to a shift in how things are done. It is important to identify the end goal as a law firm owner and map out how to reach that goal step by step. Taking small steps, involving your staff and having them make changes in how they do things will lead to that end result. Andrea uses the example of losing weight and cutting out alcohol as examples of changing using incremental steps.

Alignment, intuition and self awareness are all important for growth as a law firm owner. Being in alignment usually happens once you have done all the work. When you listen to and follow your intuition and become very self-aware of who you are as a leader, you can allow that alignment to happen. This is where you will see that growth as an entrepreneur. 

Listen in to learn more!

• 4:33 Initial Fears and Early Growth
• 15:20 Incremental Change Over Massive Shifts
• 24:32 Legal vs. Practical Advice
• 32:18 Alignment, Intuition, and Self-Awareness
• 44:32 Building a Remote, Flexible Team

Tune in to today’s episode and checkout the full show notes here. 


Connect with Andrea:

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Creators and Guests

Host

Tyson Mutrux

Tyson is the founder of Mutrux Firm Injury Lawyers and the co-founder of Maximum Lawyer.

What is Maximum Lawyer?

Maximum Lawyer is the podcast for law firm owners who want to scale with intention and build a business that works for their life.

Hosted by Tyson Mutrux, each weekly episode features candid conversations with law firm owners, business experts, and industry leaders sharing real strategies and lessons learned in the trenches.

If you're ready to grow your firm with less stress and more support, this is your next must listen. Subscribe today.

853 - Transcript

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:00 Andrea, I want to start from the very beginning. Okay. So why law? And why specifically? Trademark?

Andrea Sager 00:00:10 Oh, I'll give it to you straight. So why law? I just wanted to make a lot of money. I grew up pretty poor, and my, like, the only vision I had was I got to make a lot of money. I got to be rich. And the only thing that seemed attainable was being a lawyer. And I thought being in big law was going to make me rich and got the dream job right out of law school, worked in big law, and day one, I realized it was not for me. I remember week one sitting in my office thinking, what did I get myself into? What happened? And my husband at the time quit his job to stay at home with our son. Like we had it all planned out. I had my son and my last year, my last semester of law school, because I had told my husband, like, hey, I'm not going to have kids in my first few years of practice.

Andrea Sager 00:01:00 Like, I wanted to be married to my job. I wanted to work my way up to partner. And day one, I remember sitting there like, oh, what did I get myself into? And they threw me in the litigation department, of course, but luckily I had actually sold a business before starting there. I had a small business. It was a clothing boutique, started that, sold it. And so I had a network of small businesses, and they were always asking questions, and I knew enough to make it sound like I was the expert. And after a few months at the firm, I realized, like, hey, somebody has to serve these small businesses. They don't know who to go to, they don't know who to trust. And at the time, this was 2017, 2018, where in the news all you heard about was the retail apocalypse store, like big box stores were shutting down left and right. But I saw a different story. I saw all these clothing stores, all these closing clothing boutiques crushing it.

Andrea Sager 00:02:05 So I just noticed a trend. It wasn't the retail apocalypse. It was the apocalypse of big box stores. And people wanted to do business with people. And I really saw this trend of like, hey, this is the rise of small businesses, and actually was trying to bring a few clients onto the firm that I was at. They needed trademark help and they needed help with LLCs filing trademarks, and the firm really just didn't want to serve them, which I totally understand, not their market. Like, hey, we don't want to, we don't want to waste our time with these small businesses. And for me, I just saw a different story like, hey, somebody has to go serve these business owners. And so finally you get the wild hair of, hey, why not me? So long story short, that's really, really what happened. I always say I manifested getting fired from big law. It was. It's a crazy story. So I was miserable. We were living in Cincinnati at the time, and my family's in Houston, so we wanted to move to Houston.

Andrea Sager 00:03:11 It was a Monday. We put our house for sale on the market Wednesday. I remember texting my husband like, I'm so miserable. Can I quit today? We have enough money to hold us over. And he said, why don't you just wait until we have a contract on the house? That way we know it's going to sell. I was like, fair enough. Like that makes sense. I can do that. Friday morning, the the managing partner and my mentor walk into my office, and I immediately knew what was happening. And I'm trying to just have the saddest look on my face. And in the meantime, I was already telling all these small businesses like, hey, I'm going to go out on my own soon. Like, just wait until I'm out on my own. I can help you then. And basically they're like, hey, you know, do you want to be on this ship? Or you can just take this severance and go find a new job. And it was a Friday morning and they were like, hey, take the weekend.

Andrea Sager 00:04:02 Think about it. Let me tell you, Tyson, they left my office and I packed up my office so fast, never went back. And they wanted to pay me out over a few months. And I was like, give me the money all upfront and a lump sum. Take me off your website. That's it. And I'm like, okay, perfect. Launched my firm that night, had my first client and that was March 29th. March or no, April 29th, April 30th, 2018. And we've had Andrea say or law ever since.

Tyson Mutrux 00:04:33 That is incredible. What were you scared at the time whenever it happened?

Andrea Sager 00:04:39 I mean, I was scared only for the fact, like, oh, I hope I'm gonna have clients. I think I'm gonna have clients. But I had been building so much buzz and there were so many small like, I really just saw this huge need in the marketplace. And if you're a business owner like you always hear, be like, oh, a solve a problem like service this problem.

Andrea Sager 00:04:58 And I really had it. And before then when I heard that, I just thought it was a bunch of crap. I was like, how do you find a problem in the market? But it really just found me. And the other thing that scared me was my my husband at the time was not happy. I thought. I thought it was the greatest day of my life. I was like, we just got this huge windfall. Now I can start my firm and we have extra money. And he was not happy that I got fired. I thought it was the greatest day of my life. But yeah, went on a wild ride. honestly, it was kind of like I always had clients, but we moved from Cincinnati to Houston, moved across the country, like, got our life settled in Houston. So things were kind of slow for a little bit in 2018, just getting things ready. And then I really hit the ground running in 2019 and my gosh, it was just it's been a fun, wild ride since then.

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:54 So this is interesting about about your husband because I was I was talking to somebody the other day. We're we're putting on a wellness workshop in Phoenix in a few weeks. And it's the reason why we're doing is because life, everything about life affects you whenever you're running a law firm. Right. And when you're an employee too it does as well. But I think to a lesser extent. But like you could have a fight with your spouse and then you're going straight into the office and you're having to have or like maybe you're going to a sales meeting or maybe you're going in and you're, you're having to kind of rally the troops, you know, whatever it may be. And so I wonder what was his what was his issue with with you being fired? Was it just the fact that you were fired? I'm so curious about this part.

Andrea Sager 00:06:38 So, I mean, it's the fact that we lost our only source of income. He was staying home with our son at the time. So we lose our only source of income.

Andrea Sager 00:06:47 And he in his head. I was going to stick it out at a big firm for a few years, and I totally like. There were a lot of things you didn't see eye to eye. And looking back now, like, I totally get it. And which we are divorced now, beautiful coparents have the most beautiful relationship as coparents. and it just honestly, we would have never worked as husband and wife like I'm he's he's a very comfortable person and just wants that safety net of comfort. And I'm like, let's take this risk. Let's take that risk. Like we'll figure it out. and so we would have never worked in that way. And he really just saw it as the the scariest day of like, wow, we just lost all of our income because he really never saw the vision of being an entrepreneur and really being able to make money, more money that way.

Tyson Mutrux 00:07:41 So I really wanted to ask you about this. So this is a great segue. I also, same way, did not come from money.

Andrea 00:07:47 So it is it affects my decision making and I know it affects my decision making. So do you think because you didn't come for money, it makes you more of a risk taker? And how does it how does it affect your decision making?

Andrea Sager 00:08:01 This is such a funny question. So I'm and by the way, I'm an open book. So feel free to go whatever direction you want. So I've always been a risk taker also because I'm a poker player. I and it's so funny because I grew up with pretty poor, I mean, very low middle class, on the brink of, like, poverty. but we never went without. Never went without. But looking back, realize my brother and I, like we never went without because my parents just incurred a lot of debt for us, which is beautiful, very noble of them. But now, like trying to change the story for me and my children, it's it is a struggle. However, my parents also grew up always having house games, like poker games, So I grew up playing poker.

Andrea Sager 00:08:48 People always ask me like, hey, when did you learn how to play? I just came out of the womb playing, like. I don't know what you mean. I just I've always played. so in that sense, I from a very early age, I've learned how to manage risk. I've learned how to approach risk. And it like, it really is just born in me. And so once I left, my exhusband got divorced, I really went on my own healing journey. And I just I've been able to get to know myself at such a beautiful, deep level that I never knew as possible. And what I've realized is I just trust myself more than anything. And I know, like, hey, I've got my back. I'm going to figure it out. It's going to be all right.

Andrea 00:09:35 What what's what? impact did the divorce have on the firm? I'm curious because that's one of those things. It's the same thing. It's it's all. It's all tied together. Right? So I wonder how it affected business.

Andrea 00:09:45 I mean, did it affect business?

Andrea Sager 00:09:47 Yes, but not in the way of like. He took half. He took this. It affected because I always say like, entrepreneurship is nothing more than a personal development journey. And it affected the firm in the in the fact that I was in a much different place, I was not able to hold the capacity that I was once able to hold. And I've been struggling, not struggling, but I had a hard time understanding like, hey, I was not happy in this marriage. However, for a long time after I got divorced, my revenue in the firm went down and because I so 2019 was like my first full year in business brought in around 400,000. 2020 was my first million dollar year. 2020 I left my exhusband and 2021 was $1 million year. And then it kind of just started going down from there. And I it took me a long time to understand. And what I realized was like, even though I wasn't fulfilled in the marriage, it was still like a stabilizer for me.

Andrea Sager 00:10:54 And without that stabilizer, it's like, well, what do I have? Because now it's. I don't have, you know. So he was a teacher and he, he did have that comfort, stable salary. Like, without that to fall back on, like it's just me and my kids. Like what? Like my back's up against the wall. I really don't have anything to fall back on. So he like working through that feeling that it took me a long time. And now I would say the past couple of years I've been able to learn how to stabilize myself. but going through that really rocked me. Not in the fact that, like, he took all this money, he took this, it was just me. It was a fully energetics learning how to regulate myself, learning how to just be on my own.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:41 So now that you have this, this knowledge that you, that you, you know, you've gained through experience, unfortunately. Like if you were to go back and do things differently, not with the divorce itself, but how you handle things with the firm afterwards.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:54 How would how would you have done things differently if you would have?

Andrea Sager 00:11:59 I and of course it's all learning game like if I could go back and do it sooner, I would. But it all comes down to just regulating myself, regulating my nervous system, learning. Because coming from being dirt poor, a lot of people have a hard time even having money, earning money. And there's a big difference between earning money and having money I like through my own healing journey. I learned that even though I could make a lot of money, I had a hard time having a lot of money. And that was because I saw growing up like, hey, once you like get money, it's just it's already out the door. It's already paying, you know, getting caught up on these bills. It's, you know, getting caught up on this or having I learned that my nervous system didn't feel safe having money, having good things, so I would actually push away a lot of things. There's been so many times that I've I've been in a very great place with my firm and I'm like, oh, I just want to burn it all to the ground.

Andrea Sager 00:12:59 I'm just gonna sell it. I'm just gonna sell it. Like, I don't want to be a business owner anymore. And every single time that I like get to the finish line, like the one yard line, I'm like, oh, I don't think it's time. And of course it's, you know, it's my system. It's like, no, we're not selling like, this isn't right, but there's something here that you've got to work on. And so finally I learned, like, oh, I have to learn how to teach my like I have my nervous system has to learn how to be safe. Just like being, because growing up in a chaotic household, you've always got to be, like doing something and figuring something out. But when you learn to just be, then you can just allow the businesses to operate. And like if there wasn't a fire I was putting out, I didn't feel safe. So I my system learned like, hey, you've got to be productive. You have to be putting out fires to be productive and be safe.

Andrea Sager 00:13:51 But now I've learned, like, oh, I can just be.

Tyson Mutrux 00:13:54 Yeah, that's very interesting. and like some of the things you're they're sort of resonating with me too, is making me think about some things. I, I wonder what what the gambler, Andrea, how she operates versus the business owner. Andrea. Like, how does are those people the same or are they to or do you operate differently, I wonder?

Andrea Sager 00:14:17 They're very much the same. They've gone through very different processes as in the business owner I was five years ago was the same poker player I was five years ago. So trying to make things happen, trying to fix things like trying to do things at the table that I shouldn't have been doing as far as, like, trying to pull this bluff off or trying to, like, pull this off on somebody and now it's just learning, like, hey, I have this presence about me where I actually don't have to be doing. I don't have to be doing these big performances.

Andrea Sager 00:14:53 Like, who I am is enough as a business owner, as a poker player, as a mother. And I don't have to do these big, grand performances, which I hope that makes sense. But it's really like my energy used to feel like I have to be doing, doing, doing, achieving, achieving, achieving and proving myself. And now it's just like, hey, I'm enough who I am, what I bring is enough, and that's it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:15:20 So I completely understand what you're saying. And so I'm going to twist a little bit because I do I do wonder. It's kind of like with anything with change because a lot of people think, oh my God, I've got to make this massive change in my life. A lot of times it's just very small things. Like, I'll give you an example, I, I ran to the this guy at the gym and he was I saw that he's been losing a ton of weight. Right. And this was like last year. And I said, what did you do to lose so much weight? And he goes, you know, it's it's the dumbest thing.

Tyson Mutrux 00:15:48 But I stopped going to restaurants that have a drive through. And I said, what.

Andrea Sager 00:15:54 Interesting.

Andrea 00:15:55 Is that's all good. He said, for me, because a lot of times at the gym, they're telling us like, like losing the weight. That is that's a diet issue. So that's the coach is on diet and all that. But whenever like gaining muscle, like that's what we can do for we can help you gain muscle. But so I'll kind of circle this back to, to my point, I wonder if part of this is that you learned, like with gambling in with the firm, that it's just incremental changes. It's not massive changes, it's just the incremental changes.

Andrea Sager 00:16:20 100%, 100%. And even speaking to weight last year, I actually lost £30 in the first like three months of 2025. Literally just cutting out alcohol.

Tyson Mutrux 3 00:16:34 Whoa! Whoa!

Tyson Mutrux 00:16:37 Holy. Are you. Are you back on the wagon? I'm like. Do you still drink at all, I wonder? I'm very curious.

Andrea Sager 00:16:43 Not really. And what? So I ran the Houston Half Marathon in the middle of January 2025, and I started the year saying like, oh, I'm not going to drink until after the race. Just, you know, to really lock in for the race. And I noticed how good I felt. And so after the race, I said, oh, I want to see how long I can go without drinking alcohol. I, I'm telling you, I did nothing. I wasn't running anymore after the race. I wasn't working out, literally just cut out alcohol because so I was in a relationship and we would go to the bar until 2 a.m., go home and eat Taco Bell or Waffle House at 2 or 3 a.m. and it was just a it was not a great lifestyle. Yeah. So just cutting that out, I shed £30 doing nothing other than cutting out alcohol, and it was just a tiny, tiny change.

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:36 That's fascinating. So because, about alcohol, it's not just the alcohol.

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:41 Because I had a similar experience where we did, my wife and I, we did 75 heart a few years ago, and then we did phases one, two and three after it. And part of that, you can't have alcohol. And what I found was like, I didn't want alcohol anymore. Like I have I at this point I probably about 100 and I have less. I probably have about less than 100. I've been giving away bottles of bourbon, but I've got about 100 bottles of bourbon, roughly, roughly, give or take. And so I've got this massive bourbon bar and I rarely ever now consume at all. But it was like I went forever because I just felt so wonderful. But it's the other thing is like, right. So I noticed that our, our tabs, not not our tabs are our bills at restaurants. Way lower. Right. Like, we don't spend nearly as much when we go out. I feel better. I don't make bad decisions in the middle of the night where I'm getting Taco Bell.

Tyson Mutrux 00:18:30 You like to say the same thing?

Andrea Sager 00:18:31 Exactly.

Tyson Mutrux 00:18:32 It's all of those things. And, I mean, I'm not. I'm not Pooh Pooh. And anybody that drinks, you can drink all you want. That's fine. I have an occasional beverage, but I can tell you, since I don't drink as much, I have the exact same experience as you.

Andrea Sager 00:18:45 I. My body actually rejects alcohol. Now, I well, I was starting to get that feeling where I would have just a couple of drinks and I just didn't feel good and like the hangovers were worse. And I'm just like, I feel like my body doesn't enjoy this anymore. And I went to Europe over the summer with my best friend. First night there we went to dinner, had a couple of drinks just to celebrate. Have a great time. I went home and puked. I had like 1 or 2 drinks and I was like, I like my body legitimately just rejects alcohol now, and I. I've had probably five drinks over the past year.

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:25 Wild.

Andrea Sager 00:19:26 Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:27 So I want to I want to get back to this back to the firm. you had said something about having conversations with your network and business owners and all that, and it made me think of a conversation I had with my mom last night. So as we speak, they're actually signing paperwork to sell their business. it's a business that, unfortunately, they bought after I was an adult. So now I didn't get the benefits when I was a kid. Yeah. So they sold this business and very successful and all that, which is. I'm so happy for them. But she was telling me she was like, you know, Tyson, I just or she says, son. She was like, well, you know, son. I just they don't warn you. No one tells you or like, what emotions you go through because they've had this business now for see, they they got it whenever I was in the army the, the so 20 so 2002. So they've had it for about 24 years.

Tyson Mutrux 00:20:18 They, they don't warn you for like all the emotions you go through when it comes to selling your business. And how do you counsel your, clients when it comes to like trademarks and all that. I know that it's not the same as selling the business, but there is emotion involved in things like that. So I wonder how you coach your clients for situations like that?

Andrea Sager 00:20:39 Yeah, and I've gone through this with businesses selling their businesses. I've had a number of clients back out, like I just can't let go. I can't let go. It's not time. And and honestly, this is the reason why I didn't like big law. Because they just they didn't care about the business the same way that small businesses do, because it really is their baby. And it's a beautiful emotional relationship. I mean, it can be a codependent relationship. It can be a toxic relationship that you have with your business. But working on myself has allowed me to counsel my clients in a more beautiful way, especially when it comes to these issues, like if somebody's infringing on their trademark, if somebody is trying to cancel their business online for whatever reason.

Andrea Sager 00:21:28 It's an emotional journey no matter what, and being a small business owner, you're tied so much more to it. You have such more of an emotional attachment to the business and. Even learning compassion. Like I had no emotional intelligence whatsoever growing up. I was not taught. I taught myself emotional intelligence in my 20s. And so it was a whole new way to even look at the businesses and look at my clients and even working with my clients. And I realized how much better my relationships were with my clients, bringing that emotional touch to it because I was. And you can ask anybody that knew me growing up, and this is why I'm also a great poker player, because I have no like I would show no emotion. I still can separate at the poker table, but learning emotions at a later age benefited me in a lot of ways. But now, as a business owner and I think I don't want to like dive into AI. But even now with like the rise of AI, they say like, hey, I have an emotional intelligence.

Andrea Sager 00:22:44 Like that's what's actually going to set you apart. So being able to bring that to business owners. I mean, that is what's going to set you apart. I feel like I'm going on a tangent and not answering the question. So if you want to remind me.

Tyson Mutrux 00:22:58 You totally are, because I actually I've got a question that's related to that, but I just want to make a comment too. So emotional intelligence is so important. It is. and I do wonder, I actually think the AI might be better than a lot of people at, emotional intelligence because and I guess the way I kind of look at emotional intelligence, it's, it's the ability to take a short term loss for a long term gain because there there are many times where like, you know, I'll be dealing with one of our teammates where, they'll be like, what? We're right on this issue, right? Like, it's like. And we might be right on whatever the thing is. Right. Maybe it's a vendor that's trying to charge us too much or I don't you name the thing.

Tyson Mutrux 00:23:38 But sometimes for for a strategic reason, you want to be able to step back and. Oh, hold on a second. Let's give them this win because, you know, in six months, guess what? That renewal comes up and we're going to have a lot more leverage. You know and I'm just making up a scenario. But you it's really that ability to take that that short term loss and get and make that for that long term gain because so many people, they want to just be right, they want to win. And that poker is the exact same way. Sometimes you have to fold because you're doing it for some strategic reason. Maybe maybe the and I'm I don't know, Jack about poker. You're about to find that out with, with some of my comments. But you I'm guessing that maybe they know. They know when you're bluffing. They've kind of caught on to what you're what your routine is, your pattern. And so you've got to occasionally fold, even though you've got a winning hand just to throw them off.

Andrea Sager 00:24:32 Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:32 Is that kind of how it works?

Andrea Sager 00:24:33 Yes. Exactly. Yeah. And that's what I counsel clients on as well. It's like, hey, this may be the legal answer. You may be legally right. However, how is that going to make you look to the public? How is that going to affect you with this client, with this relationship, with this contract? So there's there's I mean, there's always we always say like there's three sides or two sides, every story. But when I counsel clients on these issues, I say, hey, here's the truth, here's the legal answer. But practically, how are we going to handle this? And oftentimes it's different than what the legal answer is, because, I mean, chances are we're not going to sue anyway. I'm not going to sue anybody. But. Yeah, I always talk about I'm too lazy for that. Like, not me, not me. but I tell clients like, hey, look, legally, here's the answer, but let's like, let's talk about this realistically, the practical way we're going to handle this, because we do have to bring a motion into it because, yeah, you can go and send this cease and desist letter.

Andrea Sager 00:25:41 You can send this, you know, tell them this. But then what is that going to do to your brand? What are they going to try and do to your brand, or are they going to try and run you through the mud online, or are they going to go to their local news station, like, how is this going to affect you in the public eye? So it's having different conversations, but also knowing how to handle those. Because if you don't, if you don't know how to handle those conversations, you may just say, yeah, you can sue or go ahead do that, or yeah, let's send this mean letter and, you know, tell them we're going to do this, that and the other, but they don't know who they're even handling it, dealing with. And then it ends up biting them even harder in the butt because we know, like. Yeah, legally you can be right. But if the public eye says something. If something different, your business is done completely well.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:26 Okay. Let's talk a little bit about that. So, you've had a lot of success with trademark and you've done a great job. I wonder what do you think actually separates like top performing law firms from from everyone else? Like if you look at like the Morgan and Morgan's of the world, they had massive success, you know, like, and you can even go, like on a smaller scale. I mean, you throw a dart in your market, you know, no matter what your market is, you'd have ten people in a row. Two are highly successful, the other eight are not. I wonder, what do you what do you think separates the high performers from the non. The non high performers.

Andrea Sager 00:27:03 Having clients number one. I used to always say I. And I don't mean this in a at a jab at being a great lawyer, but I used to always say I don't care how great of a lawyer I am if I don't have clients, because it actually doesn't matter if you don't have clients, because then you can't even be a lawyer if you have nobody to serve.

Andrea Sager 00:27:23 So you have to have clients completely.

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:27 So I used to speak at I haven't actually done it in a couple of years, but I used to speak at for at SLU with some law school classes and the it was a law practice management. So they'd bring in law firm owners to talk about their firms. And I would always ask the question, what do you think is the most important part about running a law firm? And it was always, oh, ethics and making sure you do a really good job for the client and make sure it was I said, all of you are wrong. It's it's it's getting clients because if you don't get clients, you can do none of those other things. All of those other things are really, really important. But if you have no one to represent, then it does not matter.

Andrea Sager 00:28:08 Literally does not matter. And I find it so ironic because I used to say that all the time, because I used to do coaching, some coaching, and I really don't do it anymore.

Andrea Sager 00:28:18 But when I would talk to attorneys, I would tell them like, hey, like you're obsessed with being this perfect attorney, but that actually doesn't matter if you don't have anybody to serve. And I was always like, I wanted to do a great job, the best job I could for the client. But that was not my number one priority. And I find it so ironic because all the trademark rankings came out and I ended up, I was this really highly ranked trademark attorney. And I think that just goes to show, like once you like when you are focused on the right things, you're going to have clients, you're going to perform well, you're going to do a good job, but you just have to know the priority of what to focus on as a business owner.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:05 You know, what's interesting is, you're so right. And if you were to, let's say you were to line up, you know, ten attorneys. I don't know why I keep coming on the theme of ten, but ten attorneys.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:17 One was a marketer and then nine were not marketers, I guess. Which would you hire the marketer? Or would you hire the other one of the other attorneys?

Andrea Sager 00:29:27 Honestly, it depends what I'm looking for. I, I always say, you know, you're either looking for a one, two, three year or a figure out or that's just my term a one, two, three.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:39 I want to know more about this. What does this.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:41 Mean? Okay.

Speaker 4 00:29:41 Yes. This is you hit on something great.

Andrea Sager 00:29:44 A one, two, three year is somebody that you tell them, hey, I need you to do one, two, three. They're going to do one, two, three. Nothing more, nothing less. You need those people and they're the doers in the firm. They're the they're the five. They're going to file everything for you. They're going to make sure everything gets done, but they're not going to figure things out. You figure out are those that you want them to use their brain and just figure things out.

Andrea Sager 00:30:08 You say, hey, I need this done. And they go and make it, make it work. You don't have to tell them like, hey, you have to do one, two, three to get it done. They just go and figure it out. And that's what a marketer is.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:18 That's very interesting. Well, and the reason why I asked that I love those terms, by the way, and I completely get what you're talking about. the reason why I ask is because sometimes the marketer, though, even though especially in P.I., they make a terrible employee, they're there. They can actually be good at bringing in clients. But as an actual doer, as a, as a one, two, three, or even as a figure it out or they don't they don't do well in litigation. I mean, they're basically just trying to spend all their time getting clients is.

Speaker 4 00:30:46 What they're trying.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:47 To do, which I get that. But for us, we're we're already doing that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:50 Like that's we already have a team that does that. And I don't need if I'm going to hire you, I, I'm not going to hire you just for you to build up your book of business and leave. And that's what happens in P.I. all the time. So, I think but I think you're right, I, I'm very curious. Do you, do you all take, do the Colby? it's not really a personality test, but do you have any? Do you have your employees.

Speaker 4 00:31:13 Take no.

Tyson Mutrux 00:31:14 Heavy desk or anything like that?

Andrea Sager 00:31:15 No I should.

Tyson Mutrux 00:31:17 What's very interesting, because like what you described is basically the one, two, three or is more like a fact finder. It seems like. And then the, the doer or that the, the marketer is more of like that the high quick start kind of a thing, which.

Speaker 4 00:31:30 I think is interesting thing.

Andrea Sager 00:31:33 Yeah. I, I, I've always had an I'm very intuitive and so I don't have any official processes. I, I'm very, very intuitive.

Andrea Sager 00:31:45 So I just know I have my gut feelings and I've been wrong. Don't get me I've been wrong. I will say when I have been wrong is when I have been not in tune with myself, but when I'm on it and I know, like, hey, I'm in a good place. I'm in alignment. My gut is on like it is spot on. So that and that comes back to the trusting myself. Knowing I. Knowing I trust myself and knowing that I'm going to figure it out. And I will say, since I've cut out alcohol, I have been in alignment for a very long time.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:18 How do you know you're in alignment? I'm very curious. Is there like, do you go through a routine or something? How do you figure it out?

Andrea Sager 00:32:24 I don't go through a routine. I it's I just feel it, I feel it. And I know some of you listening are like, oh my God, you're rolling your eyes. I was the same way. I was the same way.

Andrea Sager 00:32:38 but honestly, going through my own healing journey and just getting to know myself on a deeper level, that's what I've been able to know. And it's. I do know, I the test that I do know. I know my astrology, I know my human design, and human design, and like my I have a very strong sacral energy, so it's very much that gut feeling. I can't go into a lot of details about. I just don't know what other stuff about it. I just know that I have a very strong sacral energy, which means that I feel it in my gut when I know it, I know it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:33:16 Yeah. That's cool. I think the fact that you're you are selfaware is I think that's about that's very powerful. So that's a lot of value in that. your Instagram bio says trademarks and poker. And so I, I think that there are a lot of people that are hesitant to put things like, I think it's great, by the way. So I want to make sure I'm very clear.

Speaker 4 00:33:36 I think it's great.

Tyson Mutrux 00:33:37 But I but I do think there's some people that are hesitant to sort of reveal that much.

Speaker 4 00:33:41 About themselves.

Tyson Mutrux 00:33:42 I mean, especially when it comes to like, pink or maybe they're a little bit resistant. So walk me through your decision to to market yourself if you want to call it that in that way.

Andrea Sager 00:33:53 Honestly, this came at a time probably 23 or 24, because there was a period, I would say 22, 2022, 2023. I was starting to get burned out by the firm, the businesses, and I was I felt like I was spinning my wheels and just wasn't going anywhere. And that's when I really started to lean more into poker, and which I'm very grateful that I had the firm to lean back on to really, like, take a step back, because I spent a couple of years there where I did not work very much. I had my my team was great and we had a lot of recurring revenue, so I didn't have to spend a lot of time working, which was beautiful, so I could really lean into poker.

Andrea Sager 00:34:40 And it was during this time where I really started to give myself permission to be me. So growing up in a very chaotic household, very traditional Hispanic household, you have a very enmeshed family you like. It's family above everything. And it was in this time where I started to realize like, oh, like that's their thing. That's actually not my thing. And it was this where I gave my there, where I gave myself permission, like, oh, I don't have to fit into this attorney bubble or this mother bubble or this bubble or that bubble. I can just be all the things that I want to be. And funny enough, I actually had a partnership last year with stamps. Com and in their contract they had, they had something about not posting gambling. And I was like, we've got to take that out, bud. And it was just like a normal like it's very boilerplate for them. And I was like, I'm not removing any content. Like nothing will be removed. I like, I will not post about it, you know, around these certain times.

Andrea Sager 00:35:49 And, I've just learned that we are going to attract the people that are meant for us and repel the ones that aren't. And if you're not being yourself, you're going to attract the wrong people. You're going to repel the wrong people if you're trying to be someone else. So I've learned that the more authentic you are, the more magnetic you are for the right people and just really leaning it. Is it? Well, there are some attorneys that get in a lot of trouble with gambling and poker. but I've just learned it. It's just who I am, and I. Well, I actually, so I didn't play poker for 8 to 10 years when I was married. And so coming out of that, I realized, oh, I'm never going to have somebody tell me what I can and cannot do ever again. And that's really what also helped me lean into it was realizing, like, oh, like I can just be who I want to be. And which sounds very elementary, but growing up in a very Hispanic household, you are who the family says you are.

Andrea Sager 00:36:55 And finally I learned like, oh, I can just be me and I like trademarks. I like poker, I like a lot of things and that's just who I am.

Tyson Mutrux 00:37:05 I'm hearing that you finally started to become authentic, actually.

Speaker 4 00:37:11 Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:37:11 Who you are.

Speaker 4 00:37:12 Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:37:12 Which is really interesting. And because I don't really want to dwell on the, the marriage part of things, I really don't. But I do wonder, do you think if you hadn't gotten divorced, you wouldn't you would have, would not have found this version of you?

Andrea Sager 00:37:36 I mean, probably not. I just don't think there's ever a time where I was wouldn't get divorced like I. You don't get married thinking you're gonna get divorced. But there is finally a point where it was just like that. This isn't this. This ain't it. Like this. This isn't it. No.

Speaker 4 00:37:55 Well, do you.

Tyson Mutrux 00:37:55 Know what I'm asking this to is it's not to ask more about the divorce. It's really more of like, how can people help find their their authentic, authentic self? I hate.

Speaker 4 00:38:05 I hate that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:38:06 Phrase. I hate that I just said it, but I you know what I mean? Like, how do you how.

Speaker 4 00:38:10 Do you discover.

Tyson Mutrux 00:38:11 That authenticity if you let's say you're you're an attorney that's been running a firm for 20 years, you've been struggling because you you've not really been able to be who you want to be, I guess. What is your advice to those people?

Andrea Sager 00:38:23 Yeah. Anytime you're you're questioning it. And I still have to ask myself this. I asked myself this this morning. it's like, hey, is this what I want? Or is this what soandso wants? Or is this what I think they want or what I think somebody else wants? Or is this what I want? And you have to be unapologetic about it. And that's a big step for some people because you're afraid of hurting somebody else. You're afraid of making somebody mad, upsetting them, and you have to let that go. And I. I have I don't like the Lethem theory.

Andrea Sager 00:38:59 Like Mel, the Mel Robbins thing. But I've learned I have to let people be mad. They're allowed to be mad. And that's for me. That's come into. Learning emotional intelligence and learning like, hey, if you're doing something. Hoping for this certain act or this certain behavior of somebody else, that's actually manipulation. And we have to learn what we want by just continuing to ask yourself over and over like, hey is this what I want. Or am I doing this because somebody else wants it or because I don't want somebody else to be mad?

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:38 This is really interesting. I love this conversation because it's, it reminds me of because I do. I like to follow the philosophy. I'm, I'm going to do what I want to do kind of a thing, which is sort of to let them philosophy in a way. But but it it reminds me of this guy I follow on acts where he on Thanksgiving. He's got a lot of followers, by the way. He's very well known.

Tyson Mutrux 00:40:02 he. On Thanksgiving, he sits in the car and watches football or something like that, and and like, eat something that he ordered some fast food or that he ordered and does not go into his inlaws house and doesn't hang out with him. And to me, that completely lacks in emotional intelligence.

Andrea Sager 00:40:24 Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:40:25 Because they they okay, you're you're doing what you want. You're letting them be mad. But you're also like the the consequences of those actions are also pretty severe. So I think that people it's sometimes people hear things like what Mel Rollins would say and take it absolutely literal, and they want to just do everything, oh, I'm gonna do everything I want to do. But there's a lot of consequences to that too.

Speaker 4 00:40:47 So I,

Tyson Mutrux 00:40:48 I guess we talked a little bit about that.

Andrea Sager 00:40:50 Yeah, I so it's also like, because I was just thinking about this. I like to travel. My children do not like when I travel because obviously they want mommy there all the time and like so if January I went to Mississippi for a poker tournament, December I went to Vegas for a poker tournament and they were very upset both times, which is understandable, I would hate.

Andrea Sager 00:41:16 I hated when my parents traveled, but also I use it as a teaching moment because I teach my kids how to be upset. Like, hey, it is so valid for you to be upset that mommy's leaving. Like, yes, of course you want mommy to be here 24 over seven. But also I want my children to see that I'm outliving my life after I have kids. So many women are not going to go on that trip because they don't want the kids to be upset. It is okay for them to be upset. That's our teaching moment to teach them how to be upset. And it's how to teach the consistency like, hey, you don't want mommy to leave, guess what? Mommy is going to leave. But mommy is also coming back. And guess what? Mommy is going to bring you a present when she comes back. Mommy's gonna call you on this day. They want consistency. They want consistency. They want to know you're coming home. So in that's like in that situation.

Andrea Sager 00:42:10 Like he's just not even considering or I don't assume anything, but it sounds like he's probably not even considering the wife's feelings. The children, the inlaws. It's about also considering. So it's okay to let them be upset, but also. How can you let them know they're still being considered? Like, hey, actually I your parents don't like to watch this particular football game. I really love this football game. So I'm going to go spend my time to watch this football game, and then I will be in to go and enjoy time with the family. I will be in there and I'm going to do this with the family. But hey, this carve out time like this is what I need for me. But without that conversation, it's just like, F you f the family. I'm going to go and watch this football game. But it's about also counseling and coaching them through it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:01 I think those parenting lessons are really important, and I think you're doing a lot of things, that we all are like, we're doing we do these things that they pick up on.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:10 And so I think you probably gave up alcohol at the right time. You know, like they're saying, okay, it's okay occasionally, but not all the time.

Speaker 4 00:43:18 You know.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:18 And like, you know, you're taking care of yourself. Like you're you're making sure that you're you're still enjoying life. And I think all of that those, those lessons are really, really important. So it sounds like you're, you're doing all the right things. I mean, we're we're not always doing the right things all the time, but we all we all make mistakes. But it sounds like you're doing a great job. So that's really, really awesome.

Speaker 4 00:43:38 Thank you.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:40 Before we kind of wrap things up because we only have about ten minutes left. But I do want to ask if people wanted to reach out to you, wanted to follow you. What is the best way for them to follow you? Reach out if they have questions. What's the best way to do that?

Andrea Sager 00:43:52 Honestly, Instagram is the best.

Andrea Sager 00:43:53 I have a lot of fun over there. I post just whatever I'm doing my morning workouts. Any any softball? Baseball with the kids and the other. Going back to teaching the kids like I tell them, like, hey, I'm traveling at this point because during this time of the year, mommy can't do anything. Mommy is glued to the baseball and softball field, running all around and at practice every day. And so it's teaching them like, hey, mommy takes these seasons. So that way I can be fully present at different times. but yeah, Instagram at Andrea Sager Law.

Tyson Mutrux 00:44:32 It's really good. a little bit about your team. So it's my understanding that your team is fully remote and I.

Tyson Mutrux 00:44:39 Wondering what systems or expectations made that possible without chaos.

Andrea Sager 00:44:46 Yeah. So we were we've been fully remote before Covid. always been remote. I. Honestly give them a lot of freedom. And partly because I want the freedom. And when I was working at a firm, I didn't have the freedom.

Andrea Sager 00:45:02 And we all have lives. We have families. And I don't want you to be glued to your computer from 8 to 5 every single day. If your kids have pickup and you want to be there at pickup, if you're. I will never forget my son's first birthday. When I was working at the big firm. I took a half day and I could just feel all the eyes on me walking out of the office to take him to the aquarium, and I was like, never again. So everybody's fully remote. They actually get unlimited time off. They can take off whenever they want. They can work whatever hours they want, but generally available from like 9 to 4, 9 to 5. And all the client facing communication is done between business hours. and I just felt like, hey, if you're getting your work done, if everything's done on time, like, I don't I don't care what you do if it takes you. And because this used to kill me, too, when I was at the firm, when they would tell me, hey, make sure you take your time on this.

Andrea Sager 00:46:02 And it would take me 30 minutes. And they wanted me to build 2 or 3 hours, like, oh, like, I don't want to waste my time looking for something that we know does not exist. But you need to show the client that you spent this like it. I hate there's so many little things that I hated in Big Law that I knew, like, hey, this is going to be different in my firm. And so I, we have a lot of trust in the firm and just know, like, hey, deadlines don't get missed and we we get things done.

Tyson Mutrux 00:46:36 You're kind of it's funny, you've been traumatized. I feel like I've got some of that trauma to from whenever I worked for a volume P.I. firm where I got criticized because, we got the we always got the day after Thanksgiving off. So we got Thanksgiving off day after Thanksgiving. And then on Monday morning, my boss was waiting on me, wondering why I had not come in on Saturday.

Tyson Mutrux 00:46:59 I do wonder, though, how it sounds like you've done a good job of setting up some boundaries for your team members. what sort of boundaries have you set up for yourself so that you don't fall into that trap of, oh my gosh, I've got this deadline coming up. We have this practice. Maybe I can skip the practice this time. Maybe I can help have someone else take the kids or like, how do you how do you prevent from falling into that trap?

Andrea Sager 00:47:21 Well, it took a while to get there, I so it took me a long. It took years to get to where I am now. I used to work so much. I would work from the time I woke up to. Because when I only had the two kids and I was married, I would work from like 8 to 5. I would forget to take a lunch. I would forget to eat, spend some time with the kids, put them to bed and work some more.

Andrea Sager 00:47:48 Little did I know, I was working so much because I just was trying to escape my marriage, my home life. But getting through that, I then started to put those time boundaries on where. So being remote I Calendly is my number one app. Just send everybody that link, schedule a call. Slowly I would I block out an hour for lunch every single day. That was like my first big milestone. I was like, oh my gosh, I have an hour off every day. But then I started blocking off days. So Fridays I try not to work at all. certain days I won't take client calls. I choose Tuesdays and Thursdays. I have my kids and they the first, like the first couple of years they were in elementary. They didn't really say anything. Like they enjoyed my dad picking them up from school. but then they started asking like, hey, we want you to pick us up. So now Tuesdays and Thursdays, I don't take a call after two, I'm there for pickup.

Andrea Sager 00:48:50 they also get upset if I don't take them to practice, so I take they they do understand, like, hey, there's every once in a while where I have a call in the evening if I'm doing, like a webinar or some kind of training for somebody. So they, they understand that. But I, I've, I have learned to be very intentional with that time because another thing I didn't share was I actually didn't want kids. I when I had my son in law school, that was because my husband at the time, he wanted kids, and we had the conversation like, you're the primary parent. You're like, you were the one that is primarily responsible for the children. So when I got divorced, it was a lot trying to figure out what do I do? Like, I actually didn't want to be a parent, I want to be here for my kids, like now. And it was just really trying to reconcile, like, wait, I didn't even really want to be a mom.

Andrea Sager 00:49:47 And I switched it now to like, I didn't know yet. I wanted to be a mom because now, like, I love being a mom. Like I love being able to be so present with them and like, teach them all these things and teach them about life and emotional intelligence. And just like being a mom, like it actually truly fulfills me now. And I love that they can see me being a business owner. They can see, hey mom, because I and I learned that I didn't want to be a mom because I felt like a burden as a child. And it this was probably six months ago. We were driving to school and my daughter, she was like, we have to have kids, right? I don't even know where this came from. And I'm telling you, this is like 7 a.m. and I'm like almost in tears. And she's like, we have to have kids, right? And I was like, no, you don't have to if you don't want to.

Andrea Sager 00:50:40 And both of my kids, they were like, no, we want to have kids. And I was like, oh my God. I think that means because we all feel so loved. So I'm like almost in tears at 7 a.m. in the morning. I was like, y'all have such a great day. I love y'all so much.

Tyson Mutrux 00:50:55 That is wonderful. I'm you know what? I was going to ask you one more. but I'm not going to. I want to leave it there. That's a great way of ending it, I think. Okay. that's a great story, I love that. thank you for joining me. Thank you for opening up on that. Thank you. I always enjoy these kinds of conversations, especially when someone's really willing, like you are, to, to open up about your, your entire life. So I really appreciate that. And, anyone that wants to reach out to you, go to Instagram. It's, it's Andrea Sager or at Andrea Sager Law. Is that right?

Andrea Sager 00:51:26 Yes.

Andrea Sager 00:51:27 Andrea sager law. You can also shoot me an email Andrea at Andrea sager.com.

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:32 Love it. Thank you Andrea. Andrea I really appreciate it.