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A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
[00:00:00] Katy: I'm not an activist. Like, the only reason I'm doing this is because there isn't anybody representing the child's perspective in all of these challenging topics. Because it's pretty costly to speak up against a lot of this. Like, if you choose to go [00:00:15] against the, the trans monolith, you will pay. And that's very similar on a lot of these other issues.
What my heart is, is I'm a shepherdess. I just want to love people and walk with them and pray with them and read the Bible with them and bear their burdens. Like, that is what I [00:00:30] love to do. The only reason I'm doing this activism thing is because in a few of these critical areas, nobody was representing the child, and they needed representation.
[00:00:39] Announcer: You must be some kind of therapist?[00:00:45]
[00:00:45] Stephanie: Today I have the pleasure of welcoming back Katie Foust. She's the founder and president of Them Before Us, a global movement defending children's rights to their mother and father. She's written several books, and previously appeared on this podcast on episode [00:01:00] number 145, Putting Children's Needs Before Adults' Desires with Katie Foust.
Katie, so good to see you again. Welcome back.
[00:01:07] Katy: Thank you for letting me join you.
[00:01:10] Stephanie: So we've talked before about your work doing child-centered [00:01:15] advocacy, and, you know, as I shared when we originally spoke, I respect a person who stands on principle. Um, as I, as I say on this podcast all the time, I've never met anyone that I agree with on everything.
So I think it's funny that there's this kind of trend [00:01:30] in the online world of, you know, people on X saying things like, you know, "Retweets are not endorsements," for example, because that's, you know, everyone's entitled to have some differences of opinion on things. But I respect you as someone who clearly stands on principle, and you've made it [00:01:45] your life's mission to be an advocate for children.
And so everything that you do is downstream of that. So for people who haven't heard your name before, didn't listen to that episode, can you give us sort of in a nutshell what it is that you do?
[00:01:59] Katy: Yeah. Thank [00:02:00] you. Um, it is true that I, um, advocate for some areas that are kind of, um, intuitive but still very unpopular.
So I try to t- I like tell people, "I believe children have a right to life. I think that children need their mother and father, [00:02:15] and I don't think children should be bought and sold." That's kind of like the summary of what our work does. But these days, if you believe in those things, that means that you are running afoul of a lot of, um, really hot topics in culture, law, and technology.[00:02:30]
So I am clearly pro-life, you know, because I believe that children have a right to life from the moment of conception. I believe that humans have inherent dignity from the smallest stages, even if they're the most dependent, in the womb or out of the womb, all the way up until [00:02:45] natural death. Um, I don't think that we should make life.
I don't think we should take life. I think that that's out of bounds for humans, because once we get into the place where we're deciding, um, that somebody lives or somebody dies based on stage of development or, um, [00:03:00] cognitive abilities or location, now we're just talking about dehumanizing a certain group of people so that we can harm them.
So, um, pro-life, um, which makes me anti-abortion, but also makes me very critical of [00:03:15] IVF, because IVF is a sphere where we are making life, really mass-producing life in a lot of ways when it comes to embryo creation, and then embryo, um, evaluation, and then [00:03:30] embryo disposition a lot of times. And then, you know, putting these littlest humans through sort of a eugenics gauntlet when it comes to testing them for various, um, possible disabilities, for their sex.
We're at the [00:03:45] place where we can test for eye color. We're at the test where we can screen these little embryos for all different kinds of possible future, um, genetic fates or developmental fates like- Possible blindness and early baldness, and like even we're at the point where we [00:04:00] could get kind of close to rating embryos based on their IQ.
So we're really looking at a place where we are walking into a world of manufacturing and designing babies. I believe children have a right to their mother and father. Um, children [00:04:15] do best when they're raised by their mom and dad, that biological parents offer and advantage children in ways that unrelated adults do not.
We have reams of social science literature, especially on the importance of fathers in the home, [00:04:30] and that's just because we don't have a whole lot of intentional mother loss in our society, so we don't have as much literature on mother loss for children because it's unusual for our species. But men and women are different.
They offer distinct and [00:04:45] complementary benefits to children. Those differences benefit children in their development when it comes to the way they talk and the way they play, the way they understand the world in relation to themselves. Um, their own, their own identity as a boy or a girl is impacted by [00:05:00] both their male parent and their female parent.
Um, children get their identity from the two people who made them. Uh, we often say at Them Before Us, it's very hard to answer the question, "Who am I?" if you can't answer the question, "Whose [00:05:15] am I?" So on that front, we involve ourselves in conversations about divorce, where children often lose access to one or both parents.
Conversations about third-party reproduction, where children [00:05:30] lose their mother or father because somebody else's egg or somebody else's sperm or somebody else's womb was used. Um, and we involve ourselves in conversations about marriage, because marriage is the only relationship that unites the two people to whom children have [00:05:45] a natural right.
And we believe children shouldn't be bought and sold, which means that we are fierce opponents of most of what happens in the world of big fertility, which involves buying and selling parental rights to future children [00:06:00] through sperm and egg selling and commercial surrogacy. So basically, if it touches marriage and family, we are going to center the child in those conversations.
We're gonna prioritize the child's right to life, to their mother and father, to be born [00:06:15] free, and that means that we have a lot of uncomfortable conversations because at some point, some of what we advocate for will infringe on every adult and, um, their own priorities or desires or identities or, [00:06:30] um... And we just think children's rights should take precedence.
[00:06:34] Stephanie: Very well said, Katie. And I heard you say there, if it involves children and fam- or excuse me, if it involves marriage and family, and I thought about my title, li- [00:06:45] licensed marriage and family therapist, and how strange it is that, that the field of licensed marriage and family therapy has been so co-opted that, you know, we live in an increasingly individualistic society, so a lot [00:07:00] of LMFTs are doing more like individual therapy rather than the family systems therapy that the field evolved to serve.
And And it seems so strange to me that at this point in time in the culture that we're at, that, that it's [00:07:15] taboo for people who specialize in helping marriages and families, um, should talk about these issues, should talk about those things that are uncomfortable to look at. And so what I like to offer, you know, I offered this to [00:07:30] my audience the first time I spoke with you, and I can offer it again, and it's even more true now because I've had the pleasure of meeting you in person.
Since we recorded that first conversation, I was traveling through Seattle. I got to meet you. It was lovely.
[00:07:43] Katy: And
[00:07:43] Stephanie: I-
[00:07:44] Katy: We had a nice, long, [00:07:45] beautiful walk. It was great.
[00:07:47] Stephanie: Yeah, we did. It was a lovely day. Um, and I got to see your heart in action, because everywhere you- we went, you knew someone. Um True.
[00:07:58] Katy: Do you know why?
Let me tell you [00:08:00] why. Because I'm, I'm not an activist. Like, the only reason I'm doing this is because there isn't anybody representing the child's perspective in all of these challenging topics. Um, because it's pretty costly to [00:08:15] speak up against a lot of this. I mean, you've experienced that personally.
Like, if you choose to go against, um, the, the trans monolith, you will pay. You will pay. And that's very similar on a lot of these other issues, that if you confront [00:08:30] or challenge or push back on very adult-centric decisions and mindsets, you will pay. Um, you'll pay relationally. You'll pay professionally.
And so that's why not a lot of people are doing it. What I'm actually, what I love to do, what I'm, [00:08:45] what my heart is, is I'm a shepherdess. I just want to love people and walk with them and pray with them and read the Bible with them and bear their burdens. Like, that is what I love to do. The only reason I'm doing this activism thing is because in a few of these critical [00:09:00] areas, nobody was representing the child, and they needed representation.
[00:09:03] Stephanie: And that's part of why I respect you so much, and I feel like I, I get you on that level, because I'm, I'm not an activist either. Like, I'm also here to love people and walk with them through the difficult moments in their [00:09:15] life. And when you shared on our walk some of your kind of y- your mission or the role that you feel like God has given you, I was like, "Yeah, I re- I, I feel very similarly about who I am, what I'm here to do."
You know, what I was gonna say is [00:09:30] that, um, I'm a stepparent, and you're somebody who in theory is opposed to stepparenthood, because you would say it's in the best interest of the child to be with their married biological mother and father, [00:09:45] not, you know, half the time with their mom and her boyfriend, half the time with their dad and his wife, right?
And I actually agree philosophically, right? In the particulars of my life- Does that mean I'm going to leave my [00:10:00] beloved husband? No. Of course in our life, you know, our life is what it is. We are making the most of a broken situation, and in many ways, the brokenness is kind of the quality of life on Earth.
Um, so I can hold the complexity of those [00:10:15] things. I can hold the complexity of the fact that I'm talking to someone who, you know, if I were to look at it two-dimensionally and put it a little uncharitably, you disapprove of my lifestyle. That's one way of putting it, right? But I don't feel offended, right?
I don't feel like [00:10:30] you're here to judge me or to hurt me because I understand that, you know, coming from a place of principle, and I know that you are here as, as a friend to everyone. And so similarly, when we speak about these issues and we're speaking about [00:10:45] things that aren't part of my life picture, you know, step-parenthood, that is a part of my life, right?
Raising children who are not mine biologically, who have to split their time between households with different values, that is part of my cross to bear in this life. [00:11:00] Um, but we're gonna talk today about things that impact our listeners and that might hit very close to home for them and, and where that's not a path that I've walked.
We're gonna talk about things like surrogacy, egg donation, sperm donation, and it [00:11:15] can be very uncomfortable. And I personally know and care deeply about people who have made those choices. And when I'm in a private conversation with them, whether that's a friend, a family member, or a client, I don't spend that conversation [00:11:30] criticizing them in the same way that you don't criticize me, right?
I'm not here to say you should have never had your child by that means. But I am gonna bear in the back of my mind that if their child is having issues with identity, with belonging, [00:11:45] with some of these things that you talk about, that it absolutely could be connected to how they were conceived and how they were raised.
So I think the... Personally, I think the best atmosphere to be able to talk about this is a non-defensive one. And if we put children first, that becomes clear, right? [00:12:00] If, if we're talking about what's in the best interest of the children, that makes it easier for someone like me to say, "Yeah, I understand the children probably would be happier and better off if their parents had found a way to work [00:12:15] through their problems."
Did I cause the divorce? No. I wa- My husband didn't know I existed when he divorced his ex-wife, right? Um- Would I choose for him, knowing and loving him, right, [00:12:30] being my husband's advocate, would I choose a life for him where he's in that marriage being treated the way he was being treated? No, I wouldn't choose that for him.
So I can hold the complexity of it, and I just want our listeners to have that complexity too, because I [00:12:45] think if you have conceived children through donation, surrogacy, or any of these things, the best way that you can pick up the pieces from here of any brokenness downstream of that is to be able to be non-defensive about [00:13:00] it, right?
To be honest with yourself about the ways that you've failed your children, 'cause don't we all? Don't we all fail our children? Like, isn't that the human condition?
[00:13:07] Katy: Yeah. And to frame it maybe a little more simply that will help with some of that complexity is we think [00:13:15] that adults should do b- hard things on behalf of children.
Like, in all these different scenarios that I've mentioned, whether it's struggling with fertility, or unwanted singleness, or same-sex attraction, or a struggling marriage, um, we think that adults should do hard things. Because the alternative [00:13:30] is children do hard things for adults. Now, there are scenarios of brokenness and loss because we live in a broken world, and then you have parents that do what they can to mend the wound, and that's a hard thing too.
You know, you... The... I know heroic stepparents. I know that [00:13:45] you are working in whatever way that you can to bring health and stability in your context, right? So that is what we want. We want adults doing hard things on behalf of children, not forcing children to do hard things on their [00:14:00] behalf. And sometimes in this...
I'm an adoptive mom. Sometimes in this world- You look at a situation and you say, "I can't undo the loss. I can seek to mend the loss." And that's, that's probably a better governing statement [00:14:15] for what it is that we are seeking to do with Them Before Us and seeking to advocate. Children have a right to life, a right to their mother and father, a right to be born free, not bought and sold.
Adults need to do hard things to preserve those rights. If there's loss, adults need to do hard things to seek to [00:14:30] mend the loss.
[00:14:30] Stephanie: That's very beautifully and clearly put, and it reminds me, I heard someone say this recently, that even if the wound is healed, you might always have a scar.
[00:14:41] Katy: Oh, yeah. Uh, have you met...
Like, as a [00:14:45] therapist, tell me, because one of the reasons I got into this is I had been working with kids for two decades at the time when I first started, like, blogging about this anonymously, 'cause I was afraid that people were gonna come for me and my family, which they totally come for you and your family, you know?[00:15:00]
But I-- the reason I got out of my comfortable s- place of shepherding women and into the frying pan of online fighting, you know, which is where I began, is because what I heard the other side [00:15:15] say is things like, "Kids don't need their mom and dad. They just need loving parents," or, "If the adults are happy, the kids will be happy," or, "Kids don't need their mom and dad.
They just need to be safe and loved." And really, what they were doing is they were saying all of those things as a [00:15:30] permission structure to separate children from their mother or father, not through tragedy, but because an adult wanted it that way. And I had met a lot of kids. You know, we had worked with junior highers and high schoolers.
I had worked [00:15:45] at an adoption agency for years. I had children of my own. Their friends were in my house. I had been a child of divorce. I had friends of children, friends who were children of divorce. Like, I had had a lot of close contact with kids who lost their mother or father through [00:16:00] tragedy, or because the adult chose drugs over them, or because they got a casual divorce, and dad moved across the country and started a new family and never saw them again.
And there was few things that wounded a child more deeply and more, [00:16:15] more enduringly than their parent bailing on them. And I would love to know, as a therapist, I'm sure that you meet those kids, or have worked with those people who have experienced that kind of deep familial loss. [00:16:30] Do you find that people genuinely get over it to the point where they're, like, it-- there's no pain at all?
There's a scar, and be like, "Yeah, I remember when that hurt," but there's really no pain. I have found that even as they're 40 or 50 or [00:16:45] 60, they'll still get a little choked up about it. You know? They'll still think He never called, and I always wanted him to call
[00:16:53] Stephanie: I guess it's hard for me to answer that question because so much of psychic life [00:17:00] is unconscious, right?
And so I, I guess what people self-report I take with a pretty big grain of salt. You know, what I find myself saying to parents often in my parent coaching work is that [00:17:15] in my experience of therapy, it's much easier to talk to a 40-year-old about how their childhood affected them than a 20-year-old, because a 20-year-old, childhood is r- they just got out of that, right?
It's, they, they're just coming around the bend out of [00:17:30] childhood, and their autonomy and their, their newfound sense of adulthood is so important to them that they're, they're in total denial about how, how weak and vulnerable it made them feel not too long ago, right? By the time you're 40 [00:17:45] and you've accomplished some things, you have the ego strength and the humility to be able to say, "Oh yeah, of course my childhood totally messed me up," right?
You know? I, I mean, it's part of the reason that I now in my 40s, um, have a podcast episode [00:18:00] that will have come out by the time this one comes out where I shared with my good friend Sawad Tabrizi about, um, what I went through in childhood. I'm at a place where I can speak about it now. Um, so you know, I'd, I take that experience, [00:18:15] right, having worked in therapy with 20-year-olds in total denial of how their childhood had affected them, 40-year-olds without that denial, seeing that pattern over and over again.
And then I come into this world of the gender nonsense [00:18:30] and all of the nonsense about, um, you know, the, the a- attempts to minimize the likelihood of regret And of course I take that with a big grain of salt. Why? Because sunk [00:18:45] cost fallacy for one, right? And how deeply invested we are in justifying our choices to ourselves, how hard it is to consciously access things like remorse.
So knowing all of that, of course I'm very [00:19:00] skeptical, you know, of some 23-year-old saying, "Oh yeah, getting my breasts removed two years ago was the best thing that ever happened to me." It's like, okay, well, we'll see how you feel in 10 years, right? Um, so I guess hearing your question, [00:19:15] I guess a similar thing emerges of, you know, just because people can't acknowledge their pain doesn't mean that it's there, or it doesn't mean that it's not there, right?
[00:19:25] Katy: So that's so interesting because one of the things we do at Them Before Us is we [00:19:30] have a story bank of children who have experienced maternal or paternal loss, not because of tragedy, not because a parent died, not because, um, necessarily of adoption, but because adults, some adult prioritized their own desire above the child's [00:19:45] rights.
So, um, no-fault divorce is one of them, you know, where one parent really casually dis- discarded, or maybe both, said, "You know what? No big deal. We're just gonna start a new chapter. It's no... You know, the kids will be fine," kind of stuff. Um, and then went on to [00:20:00] create a lot of instability for the kids. Another one is a story bank of children that were created through third parties, somebody else's egg or somebody else's sperm or through somebody else's womb, and like the identity struggles that they dealt with, the feelings of commodification, the questions [00:20:15] about do I have 12 half siblings or 112 half siblings?
And, um, the simultaneous finding out like, "Oh, my dad isn't my dad," and I'm mourning that, and now suddenly there's somebody else out there that I desperately wanna know. Um, or kids with same-sex parents [00:20:30] who experienced a hunger, like a hunger for the missing male love or female love that all children need.
Ch- all children need a male parent and a female parent to give them that, that gender-specific affirmation, love, connection, and identity [00:20:45] consolidation. And so we have a story bank of children who experienced mother and father loss through one of those three pathways, and I have found It's, they have to be 10 years out of the home before they'll even talk about it.
And I had thought [00:21:00] that it had to do more with distance. Like, there is a natural, I would say, God-given protectiveness and allegiance that we have to our parents that is probably a survival me- mechanism, right? Like, you've gotta cover for them in some ways [00:21:15] because your life depends on it. And certainly while you're under their roof or under their financial provision, there really is some barriers to critique.
And so I have found that it's not until, like, late 20s that a lot of people can [00:21:30] say, "Okay, I loved my two moms, but you know what? I realize that I gravitate towards men, and that has put me in some really vulnerable positions because I was really hungry for their attention since I didn't have it at home."
You know, or, you know, I, [00:21:45] I, you know, my, my mother and father used a sperm donor, and I really appreciated my father. He tried really hard, but I never really felt connected to him. And, um, I always hypothesized that it had to do with they [00:22:00] needed some level of distance financially independently, but I think what you're saying is that there really is a maturity level that you reach When?
Like, when would you say that people get to [00:22:15] the point of maturation where they can honestly reflect on their childhood and really say, "Hey, you know what? There were some things that were not ideal about that." Like, is it a developmental, like, um, level that you have to get to? And what's happening in the brain at the time that [00:22:30] allows somebody to honestly process?
[00:22:32] Stephanie: I think, you know, the concept of ego strength is one of the elements of, of what we're looking for here. So what is that? 'Cause
[00:22:40] Katy: I actually am like, I don't think I've ever heard that term before. What do you mean by
[00:22:42] Stephanie: that? Yeah. That's really interesting. So, so when [00:22:45] you say ego strength, it's like ego is one of these words that has very different meanings.
Like ego in the Buddhist sense, ego in the psychological sense, ego in the sense of-
[00:22:54] Katy: Ego in the Despicable Me sense, like-
[00:22:56] Stephanie: Ego in the sense of that guy has such a big ego. Yeah. You know, it's like [00:23:00] ego can mean a lot of different things, but if we look at the original Freudian terminology of id, ego, and super ego, um, in German, id meant, does still mean it.[00:23:15]
Um, and children were called by the pronoun it. So the original naming of id was meant to evoke how you felt when you were a child. You were called id, right? So it's that [00:23:30] child impulse, right? That self that doesn't have a filter, that just wants what it wants. And the super ego, um, so ego means more like I, right?
And super ego means above I. So it's the maturation [00:23:45] into... You know, we internalize the super ego from parental authority and from other external authority, including the culture. So whatever we've internalized about right and wrong, good and bad, right? Moral conduct, you should or shouldn't do this. [00:24:00] The ego is the mediating force between those two things.
The ego is how we navigate a world in which we want what we want, but also we have to respect other people and consider what's best for the long term. [00:24:15] And so the ego is an important psychic function, um, and ego strength, I... This is just my definition. I haven't, like, looked it up recently what the official psychoanalytic, um, or psychodynamic definition of ego strength is.
But [00:24:30] how I would define it is, um, the, the robustness and resilience of that, that inner I voice that can mediate between what I want [00:24:45] and my morals respecting you, respecting my future self. Um, and so when I think of ego strength in this context- I guess that's part of what I'm thinking of, um, the, the [00:25:00] ability to have a solid sense of self and to know that I can exist in a way that harmonizes my impulses with my morals and my place in [00:25:15] society.
So I guess boundaries, um, and negotiation naturally flow from that. And if, if I have that, if I know that I'm okay, that I'm not, um in other words, I'm not completely controlled [00:25:30] by either of these two parts of me, by the shaming, "You shouldn't want that. You're bad for wanting that," nor am I ruled by my impulses.
If I have a sense of control and harmony and mediation, then I guess from that follows the [00:25:45] capacity to, um Say, "Oh yeah, childhood, that was, that was rough. That really screwed me up," you know? And I don't feel like I'm going to disintegrate under the pressure or expose [00:26:00] myself to too much scrutiny because I know I can stand up for myself and I know there's a difference between who I am at my core and whatever's wrong with me, so to speak.
[00:26:10] Katy: Okay. So to me, like, that, that settled and that inner [00:26:15] security allows you to be a little more objective, uh, because you're not necessarily reacting or having to, like, protect everybody else in your world. Um, you have an appropriate ability, hopefully, to say, "I love you and I disagree." But it's not like your [00:26:30] entire self depends on whether or not that person approves or disapproves of you, and that probably takes a little distance from-
[00:26:36] Stephanie: Ti- yeah, time and experience.
[00:26:38] Katy: Yeah. Interesting.
[00:26:39] Stephanie: And maybe it, it depends on your self-advocacy skills. And, you know, for [00:26:45] me, I think I, I didn't feel complete until several years in a stabilizing relationship with the man who's now my husband because of the deficits in my childhood, right? Because I didn't have a father, um, and [00:27:00] because of the inadequacies in my, how I was mothered.
Um, which again, I spoke about this recently with Sowad, uh, shared a lot about my personal history that I've never shared before on this podcast. Um, you know, because of that, it [00:27:15] took me, um, meeting my husband, someone very, very loyal and steady, to stabilize and, and consolidate and integrate, right? And I think for other people, depending on how much they're able to kind of get their lives [00:27:30] together and put t- put those missing pieces into place, right?
If it was relational instability, have the, they been able to create more stable relationships in adult life? Because I think your relationships are such a big part of your strength.
[00:27:44] Katy: Mm-hmm. [00:27:45] That's so interesting. Just, um, you, you're probably aware of the... I, uh, we can, I don't know, uh, like are we rabbit trailing?
Do you need to go somewhere? Because now I'm like, just wanna ask you a bunch- No,
[00:27:53] Stephanie: go ahead.
[00:27:54] Katy: Okay. Y- have, you've probably heard of that Harvard, the Harvard study that they started in the 1930s, like the longest-running [00:28:00] study ever conducted, that, like, was still going on 80 years later because they, like, went, dropped in, they, like, surveyed- you know, the best and the brightest of, of, you know, what America had to offer by these, looking at these Ivy League men who, uh, like started in the late '30s.
And they [00:28:15] just evaluated everything, like their home life, their socioeconomic level, the location, like rural, urban, um, like what kind of vocations they went into, what s- what majors that they were studying. And their idea was like they wanted to get this composite on what made somebody [00:28:30] happy. And they would go back and, I mean, they were really in-depth, like longitudinal, but then also like w- they would go visit, like interview them.
And then as they grew, they would interview their wives, and then interview their children. And they went back like decade after [00:28:45] decade after decade after decade. And the first couple rounds they conclusively said, "We know the secret to happiness. It's not how much money you make, and it's not like your, your class status, and it's not whether or not you, um, did chores at a, as a child or like had [00:29:00] a silver spoon in your mouth or anything.
It was the warmth of the relationship that you had with your mother and father." And if you have warmth as a poor child or warmth as a rich child, and both of you guys were gonna move up the ladder of success. But [00:29:15] if you had a weak or an unstable or an absent relationship with your parents, that tended to hinder relationship development, financial success, academic achievement, things like that.
So they thought, [00:29:30] "Great, we've got this nailed down." But they kept going back and surveying the participants again and again, and they found this crazy thing, that the ones that had the deficit in early life, that were [00:29:45] starved of something that they needed, you know, fatherly love, motherly love, stability, um, that those men, if they then formed their own stable marriages, it served as a reset.
It was like a second chance. [00:30:00] It was like the ability to mend the bonds that they deserved as a child by being the father that they lacked or by having the marriage that they missed out on. And so, you know, what you just experienced, like that you have [00:30:15] now are in a stable relationship with a guy who's awesome, by the way.
Um-
[00:30:20] Stephanie: Katie met him.
[00:30:21] Katy: I got to meet him. Um, just- Creme de la creme, you know, when it comes to good, good men that are out there. Um, [00:30:30] in essence, to use a kind of a Christian term, there has been a redemption of that, um, institution of marriage and family for you that now that you've got, in essence, the union as an adult that [00:30:45] you deserve to have grown up in under as a child.
It has formed, settled, and knit back together something in you to bring you to the place of, what'd you say? Su- working ego, master ego, functional [00:31:00] ego.
[00:31:00] Stephanie: Um, ego strength- It's me ... but the, there's another psychological term for what you're describing- What is it? ... and it's, it's called earned secure attachment.
[00:31:08] Katy: Oh, tell me about it.
[00:31:09] Stephanie: So, um, you're familiar with attachment theory?
[00:31:12] Katy: Yeah, so much theory. So much attachment. [00:31:15] Yes.
[00:31:15] Stephanie: I did not have the makings of a secure attachment style. Um, I actually, I, I'm being more and more vulnerable on this podcast because I have the ego strength and because I have the e- earned secure attachment.
After I've shared everything I shared with Soad, I don't [00:31:30] mind saying things like this. My foundational psychic structure is borderline personality organization. So I don't have borderline personality disorder, but I have the substrate of it, essentially. I have the makings of it. Sorry, '
[00:31:42] Katy: cause I haven't listened to the podcast, and these, [00:31:45] this is a term I'm not familiar with.
So what, what does that-
[00:31:47] Stephanie: I'm, I'm speaking to the therapists in the audience. They'll know what I'm talking about, and they'll know that it's a bold move to admit that you have something like borderline personality organization because it's essentially saying that my deepest psychic [00:32:00] structures are a total mess.
Like, my foundation is really, really messy. But I think I have the compassion for myself now because I know where that comes from. Um, I'm not gonna get into defining it, and I, I would honestly butcher it, um, butcher defining [00:32:15] something like borderline personality organization, but it's my psychological substrate.
It's the part of my brain that formed when I was three years old. And, um, so earned secure attachment in someone like me, right? Someone like me who has a propensity towards either anxious or [00:32:30] disorganized attachment, right? Someone who did not feel that they were gonna have stable, reliable, attuned caregivers, right?
Um, they say that five years in a relationship with a secure partner can create something called earned [00:32:45] secure attachment. So God bless my husband because he is, he has been that for me, and everyone in the audience who's, who's been through a similar journey, uh, will, will know how difficult that, that path is.
[00:32:56] Katy: This is so interesting because we have an adopted son, [00:33:00] and he came to us at two years, and he was starved, uh, in every way that a child can be starved: connection, touch, nutrition, boundaries, discipline, consistency. [00:33:15] And, um, it was very, I, s- it was hard on him. It was hard on him. I mean, he- He w- he, like, you know, when you look at the important daily, h- like hourly, minute-by-minute [00:33:30] contact that infants need from their mothers to create that foundation of trust and attachment, and the world is responsive to my needs, and people are the people that are going...
People are the things that can meet my need, and, um, I am soo- I will be [00:33:45] able to soothe myself because somebody else has soothed me. I mean, like, that was just d- they didn't, it didn't exist. And we, we weren't sure what his outcome and his future was going to be, because he didn't just bounce back [00:34:00] from it, you know?
I, I remember thinking after we had him for a couple months, I was like, "Why isn't this better?" And then after we had him for two years, I thought, "We've had him as long as the orphanage had him. Why isn't this better?" And [00:34:15] it didn't take him five years, it took him 10, 10 years. And then it did happen. Earned secure attachment, what'd you say?
[00:34:26] Stephanie: Mm-hmm. Earned secure attachment.
[00:34:28] Katy: Yes. [00:34:30] So I think he has earned secure attachment now. And, um, I didn't know there was a word for it, but it really is this kind of, um... He had to exist in a secure environment [00:34:45] with lovingly enforced boundaries all the time for, for a, for 10 years. But now
You know, he is [00:35:00] just And just an absolute gem. Like, he's now able to, like, explore and discover, like, parts of himself that I think he just Like had totally shut out. Like [00:35:15] adventuring and, and, um, I mean, there's still some real deficits there that, and when you talk about, I hope it gets to the point where it's just a scar and it's not a wound.
But there's still wounds there, but [00:35:30] it's not ruling his life anymore. But those early childhood deficits, like we ignore them to our peril and we inflict them to our shame. A culture that says that that kind of [00:35:45] deprivation is normal or promoted or encouraged is a crime against children, because you don't just get over it and you don't just bounce back, and sometimes you never get over it if you don't have people that devote themselves to allow you [00:36:00] to have that kind of security that you can rail against or erupt around, you know, or run into over and over and over without those boundaries moving to get to the point where you're like starting to internally mend.[00:36:15]
[00:36:16] Stephanie: I'm so glad that we got to talk about your son in this way. I know that before we started recording, this was one of the things that we talked about, and it's a sensitive subject. It's obviously emotional and very close to your heart, and something that you, you probably have, um, [00:36:30] limits as to what you're willing to say because it is his story to tell.
Um, but I'm, I'm really glad that you've brought this up, especially because I know that you are so consistent in your boundaries as a parent. And one thing that I run into a lot, given that my pretty much [00:36:45] full-time job outside of this podcast, which again, I only record this podcast one day a week. The rest of the week I'm doing parent coaching.
Um, and, uh, when I'm doing parent coaching, I run into a lot of parenting from guilt. Um, I run into a [00:37:00] lot of indulgent or permissive parenting, often in reaction to ways in which the parents feel that they have failed their children in the past. And that obviously leads to disastrous outcomes, especially in late [00:37:15] adolescence.
Um, I just released a new lesson on this in ROGD Repair on, you know, what can happen when a parent is inconsistent with boundaries and then that kid gets to be 17 or he gets to be towering over his mother [00:37:30] and, you know, learns that things like self-harm threats or throwing things can get what he wants.
Um, you know, I've run into a lot of families where they're in a lot of crisis [00:37:45] because the boundaries have not been completely rock solid. And so in this lesson that I recently released, I reiterate some of my earlier material on the importance of boundaries and avoiding a trap that you can fall into where if [00:38:00] you occasionally cave under pressure, you're essentially teaching your kid how much pressure to apply
[00:38:06] Katy: Totally.
Oh, thank God we learned that kind of early. I, and also, I don't wanna communicate that we would, like, did this perfectly. I just think, like, when our kids were little, I'd say two [00:38:15] or three times a week, Ryan and I would pull each other aside, and he'd be like, "That kid totally worked you." And I'm like, "What are you talking about?"
He's like, "No, no, totally. Do you see what he did to you?" You know, and then I would pull him inside and I'd be like, "Hey, that was the right tactic for the wrong kid. That kid does not need that." Uh- "This kid needs that. That kid doesn't need that." [00:38:30] So it's like, thank God you've got each other who sees things from two different ways so you can find that right cali- but by no means were we parents who were like, "Nailed it.
Consistent all the time." Like, no, not, we aspired to be.
[00:38:43] Stephanie: But I do get the [00:38:45] sense from just the way you speak about parenting in general that you understand that being child-centered, putting children's needs first, loving on them, does not mean indulging their whims, does [00:39:00] not mean putting up with bad behavior.
You, you seem to have a really clear understanding of that distinction. Even if in retrospect there are things you would've done differently 10 years ago, I feel like you really understand this principle, and I'd love for you to speak to that, especially to our parents in the [00:39:15] audience who are struggling with guilt, the ones who end up feeling like they owe their child some indulgence because of, you know, maybe they had, may- maybe through no fault of the parents, maybe there was something like a sibling who had special needs, [00:39:30] and so the younger child who seemed okay just got kind of left to take care of themselves.
"Oh, thank goodness she's okay. She doesn't need anything from us, 'cause this one needs all of our atten-" You know, there are a million ways that parents can find themselves in this situation where they feel guilty, then [00:39:45] they feel like they owe their kid something. And too often that manifests as indulgence or weak boundaries, and then a problem just blindsides them, and they've had no opportunity to teach the kids that no actually means no, and they're in this trap, this double bind, where no [00:40:00] means try pushing me harder next time, and now the kid knows that bad behaviors will eventually get them what they want.
So I really want you to speak to the parents in the audience who are struggling with that, because I feel like you understand it so well.
[00:40:10] Katy: Yeah. Well, first let me say I have a lot of opinions on parenting. A lot. [00:40:15] Um, because we are most of the way through the parenting game with the kids in our house. So right now we've got a almost 17-year-old who's at home, and then a 19-year-old, an almost 21-year-old, and a 23-year-old, who are at college or married or [00:40:30] off-site, and generally doing really well.
I like, it is the greatest joy of our life to be with our children now, because There's, they're great. But it doesn't... Not that we did everything perfectly, I'm [00:40:45] not saying that at all. But it does help to have some basic principles of what do children need from you and what do you need to give them? And what they want is not necessarily what they need.
So you have to think about the long game of where am I going? [00:41:00] And it is confident, independent kids who can stand on their own. And in my world, that also means understanding what they believe and being able to really defend it, even if they're standing alone. So this is all coming from... I, I wrote, uh, I co-authored a book called [00:41:15] Raising Conservative Kids in a Woke City.
Some of you are like, "What the hell? I hate it already." But basically it is a parenting philosophy on how to instill The truth [00:41:30] of, like, the tru- the economic, biological, and historical truth in your children, even when the whole world is against you. And I think a lot of the parents listening to this feel like they're fighting the world, trying to instill a truth in their children about the importance [00:41:45] of the, a mind-body unity, and that their, their physical body is not an obstacle to their true self.
It is their true self. And you are fighting against all of these external messages that are honestly trying to tell- tear your [00:42:00] child from you and replace you as the primary authority in your child's life. So, a lot of what I'm saying here is captured in that first book, or in that book on parenting. Um, but a big part of that does have to do with teaching your children [00:42:15] early to govern themselves well.
And this is something that developmentally they are wired, wired for under the age of 10. That they are wired for understanding that their behavior impacts them, that a good choice brings them a personal [00:42:30] reward, and a bad choice leads to personal discomfort for them. And that is all something that you need to capitalize on and maximize when they are young.
And unfortunately, some of the trends that we have in American parenting is to coddle [00:42:45] and to go what, you know, the gentle parenting route, which is that the kid is never wrong. There should never be any discomfort. They should never feel sad. And the truth is, they should. They should be uncomfortable and sad when they make a bad decision, because that is going to lead them to the place where they say, "I [00:43:00] will avoid that decision in the future."
And you want your children to learn that at age five and not at age 15. Woe to the parents that are working against the grain and thinking that they can teach their children basic, um, consequence and, you [00:43:15] know, behavior and consequence when they are, have a driver's license versus when they are just packing their own school lunch as a kid.
So, that's a lot of the kind of basic parenting philosophy is you do need to be consistent [00:43:30] as it relates to offering them age-appropriate freedom and letting them rise and fall and taste the benefits of good choices and the pain or discomfort of, of bad choices and not to rescue them out of that. So I don't know if that's where you were going with [00:43:45] the question, but just as a parenting philosophy, A- American parenting kinda has it upside down.
We offer so much choice and freedom when the kids are young, and then we feel like we have to clamp down when they're teenagers because they never learned to govern themselves early, [00:44:00] and it needs to be the reverse. There needs to be high constraints, high training, high ability for kids to make micro choices and taste the benefit or drawback when they're young so that you can have [00:44:15] lots of leeway when they're teenagers because they already have a lot of good decision-making under their belt.
And Unfortunately, the way we're messaging to parents right now is, is the exact opposite, and it's, it- kids hate it and parents hate it.
[00:44:29] Stephanie: I hear [00:44:30] you speaking about helping a kid develop a healthy internal locus of control, a sense of agency, a sense of natural consequences, and some of that being not rescuing kids, which, you know, earlier I was talking about parental guilt, parents [00:44:45] feeling like they owe their kids some indulgence, but you're talking about something slightly different, which is the guilt parents feel when they, the parent, did not do anything wrong.
They didn't let their kid down, right? The guilt they feel just seeing their kids suffer, period, right? Wanting [00:45:00] to rescue rather than letting these life experiences be the teachers, and I, I think you're so right that learning from experiences in these small, frequent, early ways is, is [00:45:15] really the best way to understand these things, and that when there is a shortage of learning from natural relational experiences, um, early on, then, then yeah, teenagers are, um, not [00:45:30] going to make the best decisions, and then it's more of a behavioral issue that, that can be more of a crisis.
[00:45:36] Katy: That's put better than I did. Yes. That's, that's a good way to look at it.
[00:45:40] Stephanie: Well, one thing about, um, you know, with the child-centered approach that you [00:45:45] use, um, I guess my kind of version of that is thinking of... I'm, I'm very precise with language when I'm doing parent coaching and thinking of things in terms of how they actually land in a kid's inner world, and so I get really nitpicky with language.
So for [00:46:00] example, um, and I think this is right in line with what you were just saying, you know, a parent might say to a child, "We want you to walk into high school feeling confident." And that could be such a well-intended statement, but have you [00:46:15] forgotten what it's like to be a teenager? Because nobody's walking into high school confident, right?
So if you're saying, "We want you to walk into high school confident," you're essentially saying the bar is way up here for your emotional experience, and if you don't feel that, it means something's wrong, when what might actually [00:46:30] help is, is more of a, a normalizing, decatastrophizing statement about the nerves and the lack of confidence, uh, and a more realistic understanding of where confidence comes from, because it, it comes through experience over time, and you gotta feel, you gotta feel a lack of confidence before you can feel [00:46:45] confident.
There's just so many, um, things like that, and what you were saying Reminds me of that in a way too, because you, you have to let kids struggle through their difficult emotions rather than giving them this [00:47:00] reassurance, "Oh, you're feeling, you're feeling a difficult emotion? That means something's wrong." You know?
No, it doesn't necessarily mean anything's wrong. It's actually just the human experience, so how are you gonna learn from it and grow strong from it? Mm-hmm.
[00:47:12] Katy: Well, I, thankfully somebody told us early on, [00:47:15] like, self-esteem does not come from telling your kids, "You're great, you're beautiful, you're wonderful."
Self-esteem comes from doing things that the child esteems. Like, they need to do something hard that they feel good about, and that is where they will get esteem for themselves [00:47:30] for overcoming or conquering or building or creating or persevering. And that was really helpful to us, because of course we think our children are beautiful and competent and fun to be with, and we can tell them that and be honest about it, but there's [00:47:45] no There's no shortcut for children developing confidence.
Like, it really needs to be because they are doing something that matters. They're doing something that is challenging. And I'm not saying inappropriate levels of challenging, throwing them into, you know, the deep end [00:48:00] of the pool to, to just struggle and, and worry. And I am saying that you have to have the foundations.
You've got to, you know, I- one of m- the phrases I hate the most in the world is, "Kids are resilient," because it just has functioned as a pathway for adults to say, "I can [00:48:15] do whatever I want in the life of my child, and they're gonna get over it, and they're going to be fine." Kids can be. We want them to be resilient, but that's hard to do when they are starved of the socio-mo- socio-emotional staples of their diet.[00:48:30]
But when they are working on a foundation of wholeness, stability, maternal love, paternal love, consistency, then they can take on age-appropriate challenge and struggle and risk and overcome or fail [00:48:45] and then try again and overcome. And, like, that is what built... Like you said, you know, that's what gives you the confidence to walk into your s- sophomore-level, you know, history class and decide to challenge the teacher who says that Christopher Columbus is [00:49:00] not a marauding rapist.
You know, and you're like, "I am going to stand firm on the historical Christopher," or whatever it is that the thing that they wanna overcome. You know, because they are like, "This is challenging. I'm afraid, but I'm gonna overcome this, and I'm gonna do my best." Um, [00:49:15] that's what, that's where you get self-esteem, is by doing things that the child esteems, which is always difficult things.
[00:49:22] Stephanie: Your trans-identified kid won't listen to reason because reason isn't what they need right now. They need a parent who knows how to [00:49:30] communicate in an empathic yet strategic manner. ROGD Repair gives you over 120 lessons in the psychology and communication tools that actually work when normal parenting doesn't.
Plus Repair Bot, your [00:49:45] 24/7 AI coach trained on my entire body of work, ready to help you navigate tough moments in real time. Visit ROGDRepair.com and use code SOMETHERAPIST2026 to take half off your first month [00:50:00] I'd love to hear more about what's been helpful with your 16-year-old, um, because you described the trauma of his first two years, you know, separation from his biological parents, [00:50:15] neglect.
And then you, you know, rescued this little two-year-old who had not been given what he needed. And you said there was a long period of struggle in there where you didn't know if he was gonna make it. So I, I'm [00:50:30] thinking of the parents out there who, for one reason or another, you know, maybe their kid is on the spectrum, has some kind of diagnosis or disability, or maybe there is this element of an attachment problem.
And again, that's gonna be really hard to [00:50:45] hear for the parents in the audience who did something like egg donation, sperm donation, or surrogacy. Um, but if, if they are taking an honest look at how those things might have created attachment issues and identity issues, um, [00:51:00] what are some of the lessons that you and your husband learned about what was helpful to give your 16-year-old that stability that he finally has now?
[00:51:09] Katy: Well, and I will say this is true for all of our kids who are all wonderful. [00:51:15] And you go through different challenges with different kids 'cause they're different people. Like, we have wonder- we have four wonderful kids who struggled in different ways with different kinds of things. So I will tell you the principle that I think is the most important.
And that is that [00:51:30] emotionally you should build incredible intimacy with your children And that you should be the place, the people they want to talk to the most. And the, there's, there's a multiple reasons for that. Number one, you are [00:51:45] statistically the most connected to, invested in, and protective of them.
You are the safest person in their world. Like you, the parent, are the safest because you've got, there's some built-in mechanisms that bind you and bond you to the child. You have an investment in their long-term wellbeing in a way [00:52:00] that a teacher, a, even a therapist, their friends, a, a coach, however loving and nice those adults are, they are not you.
Your child needs to be talking to you and processing with you because you are [00:52:15] genuinely, you are the ones that are in it for the long haul. You have an interest in their wellbeing in a way that nobody else does. Now, the way that you pave the way for that emotional intimacy is you want emotional access.
Like [00:52:30] you cannot get emotional intimacy without emotional information. So, how do you make sure that you are the place where your children can give the most emotional information? That's easy when your kids are talking about their favorite movie or what they're [00:52:45] excited about for the next school year.
That's hard when your child says something that implicates your own decision or something that is shocking to hear or that makes you angry. So, in our second book, we have something called the no [00:53:00] flinch rule, where when your child says something that stuns you, shocks you, makes you rise up in anger, not necessarily because they're critiquing you, but maybe just something that you're frustrated about in the world.
"Oh my gosh, your third grade teacher said that boys can wear [00:53:15] dresses. This is third grade. What are you talking about?" You know? You need to have what we call the no flinch rule, where inside your brain is going, "What the-"
But your face says, "Thanks for letting me know. Um, tell me [00:53:30] more. Like, how did that come up? Oh, you guys were reading a story? What book, what book were they reading? Well, tell me what you remember from that. What do you think about what your teacher said?" So internally, you're raging. Externally, you're settled.
So why is that [00:53:45] important? It is because you want your child to associate talking with you with relief, not rage, not defensiveness, not justification, not a sermon on the evils of the [00:54:00] world. In those early years especially, y- it's really just a training ground, because your kid is not gonna remember the conversation about the third grade teacher, and they're not gonna remember, you know, when they first came up to you and said, "Hey, I saw a picture of naked people [00:54:15] online when I was at Uncle Mark's house."
They're gonna remember that whenever they talk to you about something that disturbs them, or that they c- feel conflicted about, that they feel relief talking to you. So you need to be the [00:54:30] primary place where kids can share. That can be really hard if they are talking to you about something that maybe implicates a decision that you made.
Like some of our other children struggled in those years when we first [00:54:45] brought Benjamin home. It was hard on them. It changed their life, and when they vocalized how their worlds had been really significantly impacted by our calling to adopt their brother, [00:55:00] it would've been easy for us to say, "Well, this is what God wants.
Well, this is the right thing. Well, what do you think? We, we should've just left him in the orphanage?" It would've been easy to be defensive. But what you want is you want your children to [00:55:15] say, "Even if my mom or dad may disagree or may, they may not like this, I know that I feel better when I talk to them."
So you cannot freak out, and it's very hard to do, especially 'cause we feel defensive or we wanna justify our behavior. [00:55:30] Um, but the good news is, like, that leads you to the place where s- especially as teenagers, they'll self-disclose stuff, and sometimes there needs to be consequences for some of the things that they are coming to you about.
But what you want is for them to think- [00:55:45] All right, I went to this party and there was drinking, and I told my mom that there wouldn't be drinking, and there was "I think she's gonna be really mad because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." But [00:56:00] something inside of them goes, "But I always feel better when I tell her," or, "I always feel better when I tell my dad."
So you're gonna have to lay the foundation early, and then you have to stick to it when it gets to be really, really [00:56:15] high stakes, especially if it's about your divorce or if it's about the fact that they desperately want to know the identity of their biological father because there's nobody [00:56:30] else in the family that looks like them, and they feel like when they look at themselves in the mirror, they don't know who they are.
It is hard not to feel defensive about that, but you want them talking to you because the [00:56:45] alternative is they're talking to a friend or they're talking to an AI chatbot, or the worst of all is they're not talking to anybody and they're absolutely alone in their grief and bewilderment. And that is a place where you're really looking at [00:57:00] detrimental behavioral outcomes for your kids.
[00:57:02] Stephanie: That is so well put, Katie. And when you were describing your no flinch rule, the types of responses that you were describing there were exactly the kind of [00:57:15] responses that get kids thinking critically themselves, right? Because it's not about your reaction, right? Your calmness is the vehicle through which you can stay present so that they have a sounding board, and [00:57:30] that's so important for their moral development and their ability to think critically.
I advise parents on this all the time because the moment a kid starts talking about trans or non-binary or anything like that, parents understandably freak out. And the reason they freak out is because they know how dangerous a [00:57:45] path that can lead to. And it's one thing if your kid is already on that path years down the line, but if your kid is 13, 14, 15, and just started to talk about this or think about this and they're not thinking about medicalization yet, you as a parent have to be [00:58:00] able to set aside everything you know about how dangerous the medical side is, but keep pace with where they're at because they're not actually sure about this.
And if you take an oppositional stance and make it all about your kid hearing what you think about this issue, you're not actually [00:58:15] creating that space for Socratic dialogue for them to hear themselves, to hear their own uncertainty. And some of the best relationships that, uh, I've had the, the honor of helping parents get to with their kids, um, [00:58:30] have that, that sounding board that, like you say, the kid feels better when they talk to their parent.
And then because they don't feel judged, because they, um, wa- they're naturally drawn back to talking to mom or dad [00:58:45] about that issue, then they can hear themselves saying out loud the things that maybe they've internalized from their peers or social media or the culture around them. And mom and dad don't have to fight those beliefs because the beliefs aren't [00:59:00] actually ingrained in the kid.
It's not this battle of the wills. It's more like the, the parent can be that reflection, that sounding board. The kid can hear their own cognitive dissonance bubble to the surface, and that's when the problem just sorts itself out. And it's like [00:59:15] you just want things to get to that point. And I love the way you explained it.
It's about creating the neurological pattern for them, that it's, it's not necessarily gonna be even the specifics that they remember, but it's just about the [00:59:30] anticipation of do they, do they feel nervous about talking to you? Do they start tensing up? Or do they look forward to talking to you because they anticipate feeling relief or comfort or [00:59:45] clarity?
[00:59:45] Katy: This is really beneficial for me because I obviously use kind of like mom jargon language. Um, and here there's all of these like abs- like actual psychological terms for a lot of the things that we're discussing. Like this is very, very... I'm gonna have to re-listen to this and like capture and [01:00:00] try to roll it into more of, of these interviews.
That's really good.
[01:00:04] Stephanie: So circling back to the parents in the audience who have had kids via surrogacy or donation. Maybe they're questioning that now. [01:00:15] Maybe it's 20 years later and they've learned a lot more about the ethics and the psychological impact of these issues. I don't think anyone is saying you should take a time machine and, and, you know, make your children not be born, right?
Your [01:00:30] children are here. They're a blessing. But how can you hold the complexity? As someone who loves them so much, how can you hold the complexity of knowing that the means by which you brought them into the world might have h- had a hurtful [01:00:45] impact on them? What advice would you give to parents if they want to be able to hold space for how this might be showing up in their family?
[01:00:57] Katy: A lot of children feel really burdened by the [01:01:00] demise of their parents' marriage, by the separation of a parent through, um, sperm or egg selling. And unfortunately, a lot of the messages that they can hear throughout their life is, "You're so lucky." You know, "You're so lucky to have two [01:01:15] Christmases. You're so lucky that you exist.
You're so lucky to be so loved and wanted. We paid so much money to finally be able to have a baby. You're so lucky." And what the child often feels is deficit, loss, [01:01:30] pain, uh, hunger. And so it's, it's, it's a bit of a, a gaslighting environment where the child is naturally... It's normal for children to long to be known and loved by the two people who made them.[01:01:45]
It's probably one of the most basic existential questions that humans ask: Where did I come from? You know, who am I is probably the primary, and right behind that is where did I come from? And those two questions are really often connected. [01:02:00] So there's a very good chance that your children have these questions, or are experiencing these deficits, or wondering about the identity of their missing mother or their missing father, um, or long to meet them.
So there's a burden there, [01:02:15] and you can relieve that burden by making sure that they're not processing it alone. A lot of kids, and we learned this from adoptees, honestly, that many of them felt like they [01:02:30] needed to be grateful for being adopted. And there oftentimes is a real redemptive aspect to adoption.
But if my son doesn't feel grateful, um, that makes sense to me. [01:02:45] Because while I'm so thankful that he is in our family and he is our son forever There was a long road of loss that might never be fully mended this side of heaven that he had to endure before he [01:03:00] joined our family. So I don't want him to have the impression that he can never express sadness or grief or ask questions about why and where and [01:03:15] who these primary people are that he had to lose before he joined our family.
So I think that that's the main thing, is you want to enter in to that place with your child. There's a very good chance, especially if they are, [01:03:30] uh, ego strength, strength ego. You know, at the place where they're able to, like, h- be objective enough to say, "There actually is some loss here for me." Um, don't allow them to, [01:03:45] to experience it alone.
I'm not saying that you should ladle it on and say, "Hey, you're probably experiencing a lot of father hunger," you know, or real emotional struggles or identity issues. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if they do drop a few hints, [01:04:00] pick 'em up and say, "You know, I've read some stories recently of children created through sperm donation, and a high percentage of them want to know whether or not they look like their donor.
Have you ever thought that?" And that would just [01:04:15] open things up for them to say Actually, I think about that every night, but I didn't want to tell you because I love you and I don't want you to feel like I'm rejecting you. Okay? So, so much of the questions, the grief, the [01:04:30] loss that these kids experience, a lot of times they bear it alone because they're trying to protect their parents, who sometimes have messaged, "You should be thankful to be alive.
You wouldn't be alive without these technologies." And that, unfortunately, can work [01:04:45] to make them feel guilty for feeling what normal human children feel. So I would just say allow them to grieve and ask questions, and be a safe place for them to do that, um, because you're gonna be able to relieve their burden.
You know, that is what bearing somebody's burden [01:05:00] looks like. They are burdened. You're going to take some of that and shoulder their load. That means that you'll be burdened, but their burden is going to be lighter. And man, if anybody should be bearing their burden, it should be you. It should be you, their parents, who [01:05:15] love them, care for them, and are more invested in them than the other adults in their world.
So relieve their burden by entering into that space with them.
[01:05:23] Stephanie: Very beautiful. Very well said. Thank you so much for that, Katie. All right. So remind [01:05:30] people of the titles of all of your books and where they can find you.
[01:05:34] Katy: The first book is called Them Before Us: Why We Need a Global Children's Rights Movement, and we talk about all these issues, about the importance of a male parent and a female parent, and [01:05:45] developmentally why that benefits children, why biology is important to kids as it relates to investment and connection protection, but also identity.
And then we go through all these different issues, um, that we've just talked about on the podcast, marriage, divorce, reproductive [01:06:00] technologies, surrogacy, abortion, and the distinctions between abortion and... I'm sorry, the distinctions between surrogacy and adoption. Um, those two things are, from a children's rights perspective, polar opposites.
Um, so that's the first book, Them Before Us. [01:06:15] The second book is Raising Conservative Kids in a Woke City, and that's just every opinion that Stacey and I have about raising kids in a psycho world. And even if you don't agree on everything- You're gonna laugh through the whole thing because Stacy's hilarious.[01:06:30]
And then, um, the most recent book is called Pro-Child Politics, and that's where I just conscripted 19 subject matter experts to write about every political issue through the lens of what if we put children first. What if we put them first in environmental [01:06:45] policy, and energy policy, and immigration policy, and taxes, um, and family policy?
So that's just, like, my utopian vision of if we really prioritize the needs of children, how would our politics change? [01:07:00]
[01:07:00] Stephanie: Wow, that sounds fascinating. I'll have to give that a read. Thank you so much, and, uh, where can people find you?
[01:07:06] Katy: ThemBeforeUs.com is the right first stop. Um, subscribe to our Substack, and I will give you plenties of [01:07:15] stories and studies and, um, ideas about how to think about trending news from a child-centric perspective.
[01:07:22] Stephanie: Thank you so much, Katie Faust. It's been a pleasure.
[01:07:24] Katy: Great to chat with you again.
[01:07:28] Stephanie: Thank you for listening to [01:07:30] You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy, and [01:07:45] I'm not your therapist.
Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for this awesome theme song, Half Awake, and to Pods by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my [01:08:00] program for parents, ROGD Repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show, plus how to get in touch with me, can all be found in the notes and links below.
Rain or shine, I hope you will [01:08:15] step outside to breathe the air today. In the words of Max Ehrmann, "With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:08:30] [01:08:45] [01:09:00] [01:09:15] [01:09:30] world."