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How many times have you tried to understand ADHD...and were left feeling more misunderstood? We get it and we're here to help you build a shiny new relationship with ADHD. We are two therapists (David Kessler & Isabelle Richards) who not only work with people with ADHD, but we also have ADHD ourselves and have been where you are. Every other week on Something Shiny, you'll hear (real) vulnerable conversations, truth bombs from the world of psychology, and have WHOA moments that leave you feeling seen, understood, and...dare we say...knowing you are something shiny, just as you are.
Something Shiny: ADHD!
SUMMER REPLAY: Why "Back to School" Wrecks ADHD Brains (and the Reframe That Helps!)
Drop Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2026
*this episode transcription was auto-generated and might contain errors
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ISABELLE RICHARDS: [00:00:00] Hello, I'm Isabelle, she, her, hers.
DAVID KESSLER: And I'm David, he, him, his.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And we're two therapists with ADHD who sit down to have some chats about ADHD. We can't promise we'll stay on topic- Or be professional Or even remotely mature. But we can promise that you'll end up looking at you or your loved one's beautiful neurodivergent brain in a shiny new way.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: This is not a therapy session. This is Something Shiny.
DAVID KESSLER: I love it. Can this just be the intro of you saying that and me freaking out about how amazing it is?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So without further ado, welcome to Something Shiny.
DAVID KESSLER: No, no, no. Like, where, where should we jump in today? Because, like, I feel like we've had this amazing summer break. Everyone's coming back to school, everyone's getting back to work, everyone's routines are getting disrupted. Uh, and so I feel like anything we can talk about today to make anything better for anyone is
ISABELLE RICHARDS: a great thing.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I think you're not wrong. Um, the thing you brought up [00:01:00] too, which is also fun fact why we had to delay this recording is the feature of going back to school time that at least exists in my household, which is I always forget, and, and to be fair, the schools here in Nashville resume f- earlier than in Chicago.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: You know what I mean? Like, I never got that- Mm-hmm ... but, like, different regions of the US, and I'm, side note, around the world, we got listeners. Hey, Team Shiny International. Welcome, welcome. Um- But yeah, like, you know, school, school calendars are different and, but what happens is you suddenly have a huge germ exposure load and whatever's going around- Yeah
ISABELLE RICHARDS: hits. And then, like, for example, Bobby goes to work and, like, someone is out of his job, like, you know, two, three weeks in, one person is out with their sick family. You know what I mean? And like, you see it, like, circulate through the whole population, whether you have kids or not. So I just think about that.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I think about flu shots. I think about how, [00:02:00] um, you know, this is, like, also this time of year where your routines are off and then you also maybe feel crummy. My allergies go to town, so I am up on allergy meds. Side note, can we just, like, name that? Is... Aren't a lot of allergy meds essentially stimulants among other things?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, aren't certain antihistamines... I don't know enough about this to talk about it.
DAVID KESSLER: No, I don't either. And, and, and I know that, that people are very sensitive to, to allergy medication, but the- I've seen it go in either direction where it makes people drowsy or it makes people, like, very amped.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. Well, something, something I think about is that, like, the histamine
ISABELLE RICHARDS: But the reason that I think about it is that, like, and we can put this in the show notes, 'cause I'm not trying to talk pseudoscience here. I swear this is, like, a real thing. I just know that, like, a lot of allergy medicines also tap into your brain system pretty ... Like, like, like messing with your histamine levels does something to your brain chemistry because [00:03:00] the reason I know that this is a
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I had, um ... So I had a hallucinatory reaction to a commonly prescribed, um, allergy medicine.
DAVID KESSLER: I love this. Oh, I'm so sorry for you, and this is
ISABELLE RICHARDS: amazing. Okay, this is amazing. So listen to this. This is actually a known side effect. Like, I ... This is one of those things where when you go in the office, they're like, "What are you allergic to?"
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And I say it, and then I go, "Yeah, I had hallucinations." They're like, "Yep, that happens." And I'm like, "Oh, I guess I'm not the only one." So if anyone's listening, um ... But for real, David, have you ever seen the movie Legend with Tom Cruise? Yes.
DAVID KESSLER: Love that movie.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Okay. For anyone who hasn't seen it, maybe that's, like, a gift we can give people to.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: It's like things to, like- ... distract from the misery of this adjustment period. Um, Legend is, like, Tom Cruise covered in glitter, first of all. Like, what can go wrong? And it's like a fairy tale, but it's like h- it's kinda ... It's super scary. I don't think ... I don't know. Like, it [00:04:00] stayed with me as a small child.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: But you know how, like, '80s scary was really, or '90s scary was really different than, like, current scare levels? Like children's movies- Yes, yes ... of, uh, uh, let's say our relative upbringing time, kids would regularly be in mortal danger and adults nowhere to, you know, negl- benignly neglecting them. And then you just- Mm-hmm
ISABELLE RICHARDS: had like really high stakes all the time. And lots of movies where kids like flat out did die, and had... You, you were watching kids deal with grief. Like I'm thinking Stand By Me, I'm thinking like so many movies, okay?
DAVID KESSLER: Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory. Oh my
ISABELLE RICHARDS: gosh, yes. And the whole sequence in the tunnel with the-
DAVID KESSLER: Oh, the tunnel sequence-
DAVID KESSLER: with the stick insect things that move ... with all the crickets, that terrified me as a kid. Oh my God, I was so scared of the tunnel. And then, and then what happens to Veruca, right? She, she eats a blueberry and she's gone. Yeah. She never comes back. She never comes- They press her.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: No. Which side note, okay, this is I swear my last tangent.[00:05:00]
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Um, oh, and I'm slightly under if not, not medicated today. So I'm just stating that out loud so you witness how much more impulsive and talking over you and tangential I think I'm, I am today. Um, but the, so the r- the fascinating thing is, okay, so I took this class in college on, um... Or actually I just sh- I sat in on this class, like one or two sessions.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I didn't like end up taking it. But point is, it's all about the history of children's literature. And it, like the, the sessions I sat in on were only on Roald Dahl, the author of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory- Oh ... and James and the Giant Peach, and like a lot of classics that have been turned into movies, right?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And the whole premise was he had like a really... He was bullied, he had a really rough childhood. He hated other kids. Like, he was that kinda kid who just didn't, couldn't wait to be a grownup, because grownups were cruel- Oh ... and kids were also kind of not great to [00:06:00] him, right? So if you read the books, like a lot of those books have themes of like kids like kinda getting their comeuppance for being like bullies or rude or mean or like unkind.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And you often have like, like the kind, often sensitive, connected hero, you know, like the one who's like not out to like abuse is like the winner. But like p- the world is scary and hard in those books, right? Like, the world's not- Like the big friendly giant ... fair at all. What?
DAVID KESSLER: The Big Friendly Giant. Oh, the BFG It's just like everything's coming into s-... Uh-huh. This poor li- oh, Roald Dahl.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I know. I know. And there's a book he wrote, uh, that's an autobiography of his childh- 'cause I think he was, like, in Sweden or some- I don't know. I'll put it in the show notes. But the book is, um, um, I think it's called A Boy or A Story of a Boy, something like that.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: It's just Boy maybe is the name. Point is, is you, you read it and you're like, [00:07:00] "Oh, I understand why you wrote the books you did," you know? Like, kinda like learning about the story behind Mary Poppins or learning about, you know, like, oh my gosh, this translates into the thing. But I don't remember why I went on this tangent.
DAVID KESSLER: Story-
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Legend ... of
DAVID KESSLER: Mary Poppins.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, okay. Hallucinations.
DAVID KESSLER: Oh
ISABELLE RICHARDS: yeah, sorry. Backing on up, making my own train on up to Legend. Okay, so point is, is Tim Curry is the, the bad guy in this movie, and the bad guy in this movie is, like, a depiction of, like, a demonic, terrifying hell beast, right? With horn... You know what, do you remember?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, with the horn.
DAVID KESSLER: Oh, super red and, like- Super red
ISABELLE RICHARDS: and, like- ...
DAVID KESSLER: wide
ISABELLE RICHARDS: head
DAVID KESSLER: with those giant
ISABELLE RICHARDS: horns Yes. Like, very like, "Bleh." Yeah. And then, um, kinda lives in a, like, a cave or, you know, like, like, it's very hellish.
DAVID KESSLER: And, like, goat feet.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yes, goat feet. Like, half... Like, very, like, like, maybe devilish, right? Like, devil depictions or demonic depic- depictions.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And there's one point where he enchants this dress, and so [00:08:00] he's, like, dancing with a dress, but the, there's nobody inside the dress. Point is, is when I took this allergy medicine, okay, I was a grown-up. Like, I was going to work. I take my medicine, and the doctor said, "Hey, take it at night 'cause it makes people drowsy."
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I'm like, "Okay." So, you know, sneezy, sneezy, hay fever, hate my life. 'Cause side note, don't allergies make you hate your life? They just make me hate my life. I fall asleep, and I'm not joking, I wake up and there is Tim Curry, like, in that costume. Like, full size. No. Like, like hunching over to fit in my apartment, 'cause I lived in an apartment at the time, in my bedroom.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And I kid you not, he goes, "Do you have anything to eat?" But he says it in, like, a regular Tim Curry voice, so, like, I'm s- terrified, but I, like, know that he's not mad at me or something. I'm like, "Oh, I guess he's the actor Tim Curry and this is me." He's not. But I also consciously go, "I know I'm hallucinating."
ISABELLE RICHARDS: But David, it, it's like when they say it's, like, real. Like, it was [00:09:00] in the room. No detail was missed, okay? So then he leaves, and I hear him in the kitchen around the corner from my bedroom, I hear him, like, looking for something to eat. And then while the door is open, in, and this is a scene straight out of a horror film, in walks a pig with human hands as feet And it just walks in.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: No. So imagine a pig- No ... with like all the body parts, but just human
ISABELLE RICHARDS: hands as feet and it just walks in kind of on these little hand feet. And I go, "Oh, this is not good." I get up out of bed. This is not a dream, David. I'm like physically interacting with my environment. That's how real this is. It's not like a dream, I swear. I'm pinching myself. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I'm fully awake and I'm seeing these things."
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I stand up. The pig kinda like fades away, thank goodness, 'cause the pig was scarier than-
DAVID KESSLER: Oh.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And I walk into the kitchen, and he's standing in the kitchen. And I say, "You're [00:10:00] not real. I'm hallucinating." And he's like, "Of course." And then he goes into the kitchen, and then he disappears. I am not kidding. I remember this- My mind is
DAVID KESSLER: blown
ISABELLE RICHARDS: so vividly. Also, side note, it was already like m- almost morning time, so like lights, you know, like the light of the outside was in the space. It wasn't like pitch black. This wasn't like sleep paralysis, lucid dream. No, no, no, no, no. I was fully awake. And I, and I'm like, "Well, I guess I'm already up," and I used to have to get up ear- early for work, so I was like, "I only have like an extra half hour if I try to go back to sleep.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I guess I'll just fix breakfast." So I fix breakfast. I call my doctor. She's like, "Stop taking the medicine immediately." I'm like, "Okay." Anyway. I
DAVID KESSLER: like- I mean- Part of me wants to be a fly on the wall for that, like, conversation with your doctor. Be like, "So Tim Curry, but not regular Tim Curry, dressed in red," like
ISABELLE RICHARDS: You...
ISABELLE RICHARDS: First of all, David, you're nailing it because that is me. Like, I struggle with [00:11:00] recognizing what data another person wants of me, so I'm just like, "I will tell the whole story because maybe one of these details is the, the distincting, you know, will tell me that I have a psychotic episode happening," right?
DAVID KESSLER: Right, like it's not just that I'm hallucinating a pig, but, like, the pig with human hands. That's important for you to know. And like, the doctor's just like, "Stop taking the drugs."
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah. Immediately. Yeah, stop taking the drugs immediately. And also, I will name that at the time I hadn't watched that movie recently.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, we're talking, like, something stuck deep in my subconscious that connected, but that also was able to connect Tim Curry's regular kind of like, "I'm Tim Curry," you know, I'm, my awful impression, right? With like- It's such a- ... the character. I don't know.
DAVID KESSLER: Yeah.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Layers. Layers. Yeah,
DAVID KESSLER: no, it's so cool to think of like pruning, right?
DAVID KESSLER: Like how the brain has like all these like very different connections to different things, and so like you're connecting to Legend and the giant horns and this thing, and then you're connecting to Tim Curry, but it's like, it, there's a million different Tim Curry memories, right? And so now all of a sudden there's [00:12:00] a lot of different normal voices and not that crazy devil voice popping out.
DAVID KESSLER: Like, oh my God, I love this. Every part of this.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Okay. I, this is w- last tangent, I swear, and then I have a great question for you. Okay. But I have to share this 'cause it's one of those things that like once you find it, you can't get enough. Yeah, maybe this is the theme of like, well, amuse yourself to get through this, this interesting time.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Um, Tim Curry. So in the... I wanna say it was in the '90s or like the early 2000s, Disney kinda, bless Disney, whatever, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a, I'm a big fan of Disney. I'm a big fan of manufactured, um, environments designed to make sensation. You know, like something about on a sensory level, I just like, I'm into it.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: The magic. The magic. Like, I'm really into the like curation of all that. Like, it just feels con- like a container. And I know it's like messed up and has all these issues, but I'm like, "I love being in this container. This feels like such a nice container of like these little fantastic worlds." Anyway, the...
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So let's say, I wouldn't say it [00:13:00] lost its way, but it kind of like lost the plot a bit and it was not doing its best as a company, right? And what happened is it re- there's this CD that of course Bobby has that we've listened to lots of times that came out, I wanna say it was like, I can find it and put it in the show notes.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: But it was a CD that was like all these popular artists at the time singing classic Disney parks related and like older, older Disney catalog related songs. Yeah. Right? So it was like, "Grim grinning ghosts come out to socialize." Like, I think the Barenaked Ladies do a version on this CD. It's like that.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Okay? So can you picture like '90s bands and then they're singing like, you know, theme park songs. Snow White stuff. Yeah, theme park songs. Yeah. And it's like, it's, it's funky and weird and like totally kind of makes no sense, but it's delightful. So anyway, there's a song on there that's Tim Curry singing the Davy Crockett song.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Now, do you know what I'm talking about when I say [00:14:00] that?
DAVID KESSLER: Is that like, "Davy, Davy Crockett, king of the wild frontier"? Yeah. And then like- Davy, Davy Crockett- Uh-huh ...
ISABELLE RICHARDS: king... Yeah, exactly. So I'll put, I can put a link to the original and then a link to the song because I kid you not, like if you were Like a comedian improvising something on SNL, like you couldn't do a better job than what Tim Curry does 'cause he's still very Tim Curry.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So he's like, "David." He goes, "Davey. Davey Crockett, king of the..." Like, it's like that, but it's like a jazz song. And then at one point he goes, "David He goes, "David Crockett?" Like, he just says and does things where you're like, "I can't make this up. This was a real thing." Like, he recorded it and like, like did this, right?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, this is a thing that happened. Also, you might enjoy- Oh my God ... 'cause he's saying your name. Right?
DAVID KESSLER: Well, well, that's where it gets... There's this amazing thing that happened to me in elementary school- [00:15:00]
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm-hmm ...
DAVID KESSLER: where, where that was the song that people would torment me with. Oh. Like, I don't know why. It was like, it was like they would make fun of me by singing Davy Crockett at me, and in retrospect I don't know why that bothered me.
DAVID KESSLER: You know? Like zero. It's like that whole thing of like when you're a kid, like, "Don't get your dead skin cells on me," or whatever. Like- Mm-hmm ... like, "Don't cross the line in the car." It was just like this, they were torment... So when you're like, "Do you know the Davy Crockett song?" I'm like, "Yeah."
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh my God. "
DAVID KESSLER: Oh, yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: I know the Davy Crockett song." No, no, no. This isn't like a trauma memory coming back. But it, it, so like the idea of like Tim Curry now like questioning Davy Crockett- ... in like spoken jazz is like very nice. Yeah,
ISABELLE RICHARDS: yeah. For real. He's like, "David Crockett?" Like, he's like kinda like, "Who are you, David?" Like, it's...
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I think it could be healing maybe then. I hope. Like, oh, I wouldn't have minded if this was the version. Oh, okay, so here's a question that I've been thinking on, which I think is, you know, twofold. Okay, so going back to school, I [00:16:00] think as a season, as a time of year, I, I will name that I didn't even realize how triggering this was, right?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Bec- and I'll name, right? Like, I know we've talked about this, but like my own educational experiences, in a way school, especially teachers, 'cause my peers and I did not see eye to eye. By which I mean it was not easy. Um, but my teachers were really like... I, I really needed to have my teacher like me because that was the way I was gonna...
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I realize now, I'm like, "Oh, that was my accommodation." I used the pressure of that relationship and not wanting to let down my beloved teacher as the reason I was able to do the hard things, right? Like, and I think I also used a lot of, um, you know, that relationship to get extensions, to do alternative assignments.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I just like realize how like schemey, without realizing it, I was the whole time. But point is, is okay, so one of my kids is going back to school. We go in to meet the [00:17:00] teacher, and teacher's great. Teacher's like a great regular, I don't know, pick like a, a teacher and there they are, right? And I found myself doing the thing where I...
ISABELLE RICHARDS: But they, they were kinda like a blank slate. Like, they weren't like reacting or responding to my quirky, rambly, goofy, big hand gesture self, okay? And I had this thing happen. So two questions. First is, am I... Like, is this a weird thing that happened or is this, like, a typical thing that happened? That around this time of year, you're gonna go back to, like, if you have kids or if you're even seeing the school supplies in the stores, it just brings back that, like, association of this being actually, like, a really hard time of year, right?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like a not easy thing, right? And the other question I have is, I... And this is like a total side note, but like I felt like what happens, [00:18:00] and I didn't even realize this about myself, but when there's like a vacuum, like when I'm not getting a lot from another person, like they're just giving one-word answers, or they're just like being polite, I like jump in and become so animated.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I f- I, I feel like I become a cartoon character, which I know our guest and friend Ren brought up as well, right? That there's like a cartoon version of yourself at some point that comes in. So I don't know how this relates to back to school, but like, I don't know. I just, I, I'm curious.
DAVID KESSLER: The going back to school piece is so complicated.
DAVID KESSLER: To me, I've been thinking about it a lot lately. Like, every year it hits me when I see like the, the different markers on sale, and Trapper Keepers, and like all these... Well, actually, like binders and all this kind of stuff. Like, when I see that out in the stores now, I'm like, "Oh, yeah." And I have this feeling now, and it's funny, for a while it was like a gulp.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm.
DAVID KESSLER: Because like it even, it was even [00:19:00] signifying like more work for me when I was going to school, like grad school, undergrad. Like, it was always like coming back, like the break is over, right? And then now I have distance from when I've been in school, right? Like now I have like some solid years in between me and graduating.
DAVID KESSLER: And, and I now I ha- like when I see the back to school stuff right now, I have... Like this is my internal feeling. And like, like there's a part of me that like laughs and then feels bad for like everyone. But like I'm like, "I don't have to do it. Oh, it sucks that someone does." Like, it's just like, it's just like very, like I- if it's a flavor, it's like wasabi maybe, 'cause I love it, but then like it burns, then it's gone.
DAVID KESSLER: Like, it's like this... It, it, it w- it's such a unique like experience for me now, but the fact that I was... As we're walking through, like we're on vacation, we're, we're going shopping and there's like some back to school stuff, and I'm just like, "Oh my God." And then I had, you know, had this thought of like there are so many things in life that are like really intense and really horrible that like our brains make us forget.
DAVID KESSLER: Like, I've talked to so many people that have given [00:20:00] birth, and they're like, "I don't really... I remember it was bad or hard, but like I don't really remember like what was happening." A- and I think that like there's a part of, for us, there are so many transitions and beginnings. The starting is the hardest part, like every time.
DAVID KESSLER: That's what we know about ADHD. There's an end of the summer. There's an end to freedom. There's an end to doing what you want. There's an end to staying up late. There's an end to being able to see your friends. And then there's a start to not being able to do all that stuff. And a start to school. Yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: And a start to homework, and a start to all this work. I can't think of another time w- two oceans slamming together. Like, all these endings and all these beginnings in like what can't be described as a more complicated transition. Yes. And so-
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yes ...
DAVID KESSLER: if you're the parent of somebody who's neurodivergent, if you are neurodivergent and you're a parent and your kids are neurodivergent, like if you are...
DAVID KESSLER: Like, there are so many different variables here, but this is hard. Even for a neurotypical kid, this is not easy. There's a lot of massive structure change- like structural changes that are imp- that are happening. There's, [00:21:00] there's more demands on you as a, as a parent. I know so many people have to wake up earlier now because they have to take their kids to school.
DAVID KESSLER: Yes. It's like so many, so many things kind of hit. So when you're saying like, "What, what do I do with the complex feelings that I have around like the start to school time?" I'm like, like this is where like we're all, we're all here, we're all in this room together, and like, like this is highly activating, maybe like lowercase traumatic for everyone every year.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yes. Oh, I love how you just phrased that. Highly activating. Yeah, like your nervous system is going through a ringer. I think there's like a fatigue that often happens, too. Like I notice it in my kids, like the beginning of the year even, you know, germ load aside, right? Like they just need downtime when they get home in a way that like a month or so from now they might not.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And I think it, it's like it's adjustment period. You know? It's like recognizing... What I think about... Okay, so two things I'm thinking about as you say this, and tell me if this at all makes sense. The first is like I remember you talking about, [00:22:00] um... Or maybe we were, maybe this was in like that ADHD training I did.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I don't remember. Stop me. But it's like that idea that if you think about like demands, you know, cognitive demands on our, on our, on us, right? So picture that like most people are walking around with like, like hold up your 10 fingers, right? They got 10 slots for these demands. Oh, this... You know what this brings up?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: This brings up, um, pathological demand avoidance, which we haven't really talked about yet that I'm like really excited to talk more about. Um- AKA perv- I like to call it pervasive demand avoidance, 'cause it just makes it sound less, like, awful. Um, or persistent drive to autonomy, which is another amazing neurodiverse, neurodivergent reframe, right?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, yeah. But point out, you have, you have the 10 fingers. Sorry. Been holding them the whole time. I'm like, "I got my fingers
DAVID KESSLER: up. I got my fingers up."
ISABELLE RICHARDS: By the way, me and Damon, we've been holding up our fingers this whole time I've been talking. Okay, so you've got 10 fingers. So picture like... And I'm n- I [00:23:00] don't know for sure what your finger load is, right?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: But I'll u- just use myself. So imagine that, like, someone has 10 slots, right? So one slot is, um, taken up with, oh, like the school supplies I need to get. Another, another finger's taken up with, um, I'm sad. I'm just using myself as a parent. I'm sad that my kid, I, and I won't have the same time. Another slot is I'm excited my kid's going back to school, 'cause I might have more free time.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Another slot is, oh, I have to change, yeah, my daily rhythm, my mornings. Oh, I also have to change what I do at night. N- do you see what I'm doing? It's like the demand-
DAVID KESSLER: Yep. You're losing fingers. It's
ISABELLE RICHARDS: like- You're losing fingers really rapidly, and you don't realize that's happening, right? And so the idea behind, um, we'll call it persistent drive to autonomy, is that in the face of so many demands, things become a can't, not a won't, right?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So, like, I literally cannot. Like, I have no more slots left then to, like, strategize [00:24:00] about my, my, my business, or make time for my partner. And oh yeah, the hobby I started last week. And oh, the friend I, you know, whose texts I get. Like, it's like that feeling, and it happens this time of year, where, like, every, even a pleasant thing is just one step too many.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: It's like just one ask too much. Does that make sense? It's like the load- Yes ... is just too high. And then I think about how with neurospice, and I think in particular PDA w- for short, is, is talked a lot about in the autism community in particular. But I do think it applies across neurospice, right? 'Cause we know it's all, so many things are interconnected here.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Um, the idea is that it's like, it's also, like, recognizing that for some people they don't have the 10 slots. They only have two. And so what you see in like a kid, for example, is a kid who anytime they're approaching a transition, like, "Hey, grab your backpack and put on your shoes and let's head out the door."
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I- what I did there is I made three requests, and [00:25:00] actually there's like 10 steps between those things, right? First step is locate those things. Second step is gather them. Third step is do so in a timely fashion or whatever, right? Like, it's way more than they can do. And so what the kid will do is, "I don't, I don't wanna."
ISABELLE RICHARDS: What you hear is, "I don't wanna, I don't wanna go to school. No, no, no." But like also what's in there is they can't. Like, they cannot do more than what those two slots... Like, they need help. Like they can do more, but they need help with those demands being put on them, and they're gonna get crispy and they're gonna get ragey.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And I, I hate this term, but they use a lot, like they, you become oppositional, right? Like, it's power struggle, it's picking fights. But it also can look like, I think in my case, like a sensory overload shutdown. I'm gonna avoid the heck out of anything I perceive as a demand. Even if you wouldn't think it's a demand, feels like it's a demand on me.
DAVID KESSLER: Oh, this is great. And I think there's [00:26:00] a part of me that's like, I don't know how I feel about like this diagnostic label.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah, same here. Like,
DAVID KESSLER: just because when we're overwhelmed, when we're toasted, it's like that's, that should be our reaction. I saw this video once, and I don't... It really spoke to me. Um, it was a video of someone trying to like explain what it was like for them, uh, they're autistic and what it was like walking into a s- into a store, right?
DAVID KESSLER: And like, so as they walked into like the super store, like a m- you know- Target, Kmart, Meijer, whatever it is, giant store. The sounds got louder, the doors opened, the neon lighting th- kicked in. Like, all these different sensory inputs were hitting the person, and the screen started to pixelate-
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm. ... the
DAVID KESSLER: farther into the store they got.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm-hmm.
DAVID KESSLER: Like, p- images were frozen. Like, it ... Like, essentially you're watching a satellite and, like, there's a storm. Like, you can, you can't really understand the image. And they were frozen, they had to back out of the store, and as they backed out, the, the s- like, the pixels returned. They could see again.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: [00:27:00] Yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: And, and, like, I think there's a part of me, like, I don't have the visual distortion that that person, like, showed with that, um, video, but being ADHD and being overwhelmed, I get to a place where, like, I'm just like, "Nope."
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. "
DAVID KESSLER: Nope, all of it. Nope." And, like, there's a whole lot of nopes, and they are coming from a place of, like, I'm, I have nothing left.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yes. Yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: And, and I think, like, w- like, am I episodically, like, pathologically, you know, demand avoidant? It's like, aren't we all at 5:30 in the morning? You know?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yes. Like, aren't we- Yes, it's like pathologizing it- Yeah ... or assigning it this like ... Well, I see it both, both sides of it, right? Because I ... The one thing you're so
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, the one thing I wholeheartedly hear you on is like, yeah, like, actually isn't this a common thing that we share across all sp- you know, all spectrums? And also ... But I think where this lives differently, and I'll disclose that I'm [00:28:00] currently, and maybe we can even talk about it on the podcast, but I'm really, like, somewhat excited 'cause I've enlisted myself and pretty much my whole family, we're gonna go get official new updated neuropsych testing-
DAVID KESSLER: Amazing
DAVID KESSLER: um,
ISABELLE RICHARDS: as of next month, or as of this month. In a week we start. Um, and so it takes a while, but I feel like we could use that. You know, or talk, you know, like, I'm happy to share and disclose. Um, and I am going into it with a ton of curiosity about whether I live in the AuDHD side of things, the autism and ADHD side of things.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And for some listeners, you might be like, "Oh, it's so obvious to me." Can I name again that, like, I do this for a living and it has not, that is not obvious to me. And yet, the more digging I do and the more self-reflection, the more ... It's like the more self-awareness I am able to gather, like, I will put it this way.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Without all the accommodations and strategies and meta awareness you and I engage in around ADHD, I [00:29:00] don't think I'd have the ability to then also discern, huh, I think I have a lot more sensory stuff. than others I talk to who identify as having ADHD. And that's, like, not enough to tell me, right, what's up, but I wanna welcome it, right?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, if that is the case. And I will also name that it is such a classic thing where it's like you see it reflected in people around you, and then suddenly you go, "Wow, a ton of humans around me that I love very deeply, um, identify as being on the autism spectrum, and we just get each other, and we're just able to talk."
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Uh, does that make sense? It's like a feeling of like, "Oh, that's part of my tribe," and like, "Oh, I love it." So I'm saying this to say the reason I got really excited when I learned about PDA is I don't like, I agree, I don't like the term pathological demand avoidance, but what I think about is how... Well, two things.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: One is how [00:30:00] as a parent, knowing that that is part of what's going on, that things are a can't, not a won't, and that my kid or m- I as a parent might need to lower my demand threshold, is the closest thing I've come to in resetting my expectations for myself. So I find it, I f- I think it's really useful to, like...
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And I will name that for a lot of clients where I've brought this up, a really common reflection is, "Oh my gosh, I'm not lazy or stubborn. I'm not just trying to avoid hard work. I'm not just trying to skimp on, you know, doing my taxes or whatever the big hard thing is. It's, 'Oh, I had, I ran out of spoons,' right?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: 'I didn't have the bandwidth.'" Like, it's a way of talking about, this is a cool segue, the energy bar that you and I have been working on. But yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: It, it is. Wait, it is. And I think, like, using that energy bar and, like, I, I kinda wanna be clear. This, this isn't me [00:31:00] saying, like, I don't believe in pathological demand avoidance as a thing, because I think that there's a nuance here that needs to be talked about.
DAVID KESSLER: But I think, you know, there's a lot of There's a lot of parts of that that are, I think, consistent around neurodiversity and low resourced.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: Like, when you don't have your resources and you don't have your energy, like, this is where you are. And to your point, some people have a l- a l- like a, a different starting place with resources.
DAVID KESSLER: They don't have as many. Like, instead of having 10 slots, they have two. Like, for sure, but it... But I don't, like... I think I wanna make sure I'm validating that, like, power struggles are gonna be activating all
ISABELLE RICHARDS: the time. Yes. That is so true.
DAVID KESSLER: You know? Like, it's not just around- And just because a power
ISABELLE RICHARDS: struggle is activating- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: It's not like, not every... Well, yeah, put it this way. Not every struggle with no transition is automatically the fact that your demand load... 'Cause, yeah, the distinction, and this is so helpful, thank you so much, uh, to make too is it comes from the autism [00:32:00] community, and a lot of research is rooted in autism, because part of what it's trying to discern is that sensory inputs take up those slots.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Right. So sound- Right ... smell, texture, sensation, right? Like, that has taken up a couple slots, and then you're asking somebody to do a thing, and you just see their frustration and their pain. And it's like... And then over time, they avoid it, and then over time, they're not able to do a thing that they could do maybe, um, with a lot of compassion and a lot of connection and help, right?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, like somebody coming and going-
DAVID KESSLER: Yes ... "
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Hey, that happens to me too. Oh my gosh, let's figure this out," instead of let me, like, yell at you for not remembering to do the thing. Thank
DAVID KESSLER: you so much for listening. If you ever have that thought where you think, "Hey, I'm nothing," stop. Remember, you're something.
DAVID KESSLER: Something shiny.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: That's right, just as you are. If you like what you heard and you want to hear more free episodes of this podcast, please subscribe, [00:33:00] rate, and review anywhere you listen to podcasts. We're on Instagram as Something Shiny Podcast, and if you're looking for more information, useful links, definitions, visuals, everything we can think of and more is on our website at somethingshinypodcast.com, and it's all free.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you in two weeks.