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Time Out is a podcast focused on current issues in sport leadership, performance, and health with a wide range of experts and industry leaders. This podcast is offered by the School of Sport Sciences in West Virginia University’s College of Applied Human Sciences.
These are things that attract kids to the sport. So I think that's how you fall in love with it. It's you're doing fun things with your friends from a coaching perspective. That's always stuck with me. What in terms of the what stuck the idea about how the idea of feel how he yeah, how, how do my, how do I make my players feel at those young ages?
Like do. Do they want to come to the, back to the rink? Do they want to be around? Do they want, am I creating the environment for them to, to thrive like that? Cause it wasn't him telling us what to do all the time. He gave us a lot of autonomy, but, um, he was always there in a supporting fashion. Um, it really unique.
And again, he was an exceptional coach. Find a way to connect. From a human side of things. I think that's probably the biggest, one of the biggest things for, for, for kids feeling a part of it. The first thing always in the back of my head is, is kids don't sign up to work on ice hockey. They sign up to play ice hockey.
My name is Dr. Peter McGahee and I'll be the host today. I'm pleased to be joined by Ken Martell. Ken is the senior director of player and coach development for USA hockey. Our conversation today is going to center around creating a positive youth sport environment. With a real focus on our grassroots and high school levels and welcome to the show.
Let's go. I really appreciate you joining us on the podcast today. And as I just mentioned, Ken is the senior director of player and coach development for USA hockey. Ken, welcome. Thanks Peter. It's fantastic to be here. I really look forward to speaking to you about, uh, creating a positive youth sport environment for our grassroots, uh, players and athletes.
Ken, how did you fall in love with hockey? You know, it's I grew up in Southern California, so it's a really an odd place to, uh, start playing the game. It's funny. My, my, my father, uh, ended up taking me to the local rink. Um, I went on the ice to kind of held onto the boards because couldn't skate. And then I watched a game of little kids.
Right after I got off the ice there and my dad said, you know, you could go play for that team if you if you want, um, and I just looked at the every kid was involved. Every kid was moving around. It looked just looked fun. And then you get out there and it's You know, it's, it's just a completely different environment.
Right? So you're, you're on skates, you're gliding around, uh, there, there's, there's some physicality to it. Um, I don't know. I just, and then friends, right? I think that's one of those things. And we have a unique thing, I think, uh, in ice hockey, because we have all this equipment that we put on our little kids, right?
when they go out and play. So there's this locker room component. And some of my fondest memories are hanging out with my friends in the locker room, getting gear on, you know, BS in a little bit with them. And so there's this real social component that it's not like your parents just drop you off and you jump on the ice and you go or at the soccer pitch or we have this other social thing and your friends play.
These are things that attract kids to the sport. So, um, I think that's how you fall in love with it. It's you're doing fun things with your friends. Yeah, it's fun. It's amazing. It's amazing of how just the idea about getting out and experiencing a sport and an ice hockey, it's a totally different medium.
Kids aren't, not all the kids are walking around on the street, on the ice. Yeah. That uniqueness, I think helps a little bit too. Like that's captivating. I think. Absolutely. And you mentioned the idea about the locker room and those things. When you see the youngsters at the hockey rink, their hockey bags are bigger than that are bigger than are bigger than them in most cases.
That's right. Awesome. Can do you have a story or a memorable coach that made a real positive impact when you were growing up? Yeah, I do. Um, there was a guy, uh, his name was Dave Warburton and Dave really didn't know a whole heck of a lot about ice hockey. Um, he was an exceptional coach. He was a baseball guy actually, and a number of his players that he coached in Youth baseball ended up being, you know, major league baseball players.
Um, he would go on the ice in his tennis shoes. He couldn't skate, but and I don't even remember him teaching me anything technically or really tactically about the sport. I just remember how he made me feel and he would joke around with us. He made you feel, you know, unique, special. Um, and he would push us like, you know, he would be honest if we were You know, we're working hard or whatever, but, but always in a joking way.
And, um, I just always remember him, how he made me feel. I just loved coming to the rink and being around him. And, uh, so from a coaching perspective, that's always stuck with me. What, in terms of the, what stuck the idea about how he brought, yeah, how, how do my, how do I make my players feel at those young ages?
Like, do, do they want to come to the, back to the rank? Do they want to be around? Do they want, am I creating the environment for them to, to thrive like that? Cause it wasn't him. Telling us what to do all the time. He gave us a lot of autonomy, but, um, he was always there in a supporting fashion. Um, it, it really unique and again, he was an exceptional coach cuz a lot of his baseball players ended up at playing at a very, very high level.
Oh, that's fantastic. And he, and he went out on the ice hockey players by, by the way. And again, if you think about, if you think about where you've ended up to your journey, your journey, your journey fills out that. I had three teammates from Southern California that I played with at nine, 10, 11, that he coached that ended up in the National Hockey League.
Yeah. And you think about, yeah, that's amazing. So there is something to how do our players feel about the experience right at that youngest level and think about like again We're always talking about the coach has got to be these wonderful things and this incredible knowledge of the sport And that's not what I'm hearing you say You know it up on the ice with his tennis shoes Southern, California.
That's sort of that fits a good visual for me But again, the power of how do we make our athletes feel in this youth sport environment is really important. So when we speak about, and you've mentioned it already, this idea about youth sport environment, help. What does that mean to you? Oh, you know what?
That's everything. Um, because everything has some influence on our players, you know, it's. It's not just the coach and the interaction with the coach and the players. If the parents are involved in creating that environment, the club is involved in creating that environment, the, the, the constraints that, that the sport itself, you know, every sport is unique and they have certain social norms and those things that creates an environment.
So all of these things have influences on the player. And I think that's really difficult for the coach to, to navigate when they're. Just getting started too. I think it's, it's tough, but for me, the environment is everything that goes into it. It's not just, you know, what we designed for our practice. And, and, and go on the ice with, it's, um, it's everything.
It goes back to how do you make your players feel? How, how do they, you know, confidence, um, willingness to try things, uh, you know, and then the, the parents are, they do, do they get outta hand? You know, think about the competition. Are they yelling? Does a player, player or the athlete have more pressure put on them?
Because, because the parents. Right there to like all these things that influence the kids that if we weren't around. Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe it might not be there in the pond hockey rink in the backyard or the soccer field at the up end of the street, that that environment is going to be similar and quite different at the same time.
You mentioned about like it involves everything. So I'm the novice coach. I really want to do a good job. I've signed, I've been, I've been voluntold. I need to coach my. My, my, my, my, my, my youngsters team, what are some of the biggest challenges that are facing novice coaches as they jump into this grassroots coaching environment?
You know, I think coaches face a lot of pressure. Um, the expectations in our society now, uh, you, you, you put on the hat of coach and uh, everybody's image of what a coach. Looks like acts like is what everybody sees maybe on TV. And then they transpose this professional, right? Someone that's been doing that does this for a living, that could pay it a lot of money to do this.
And they transpose that on the youth coach. And it's like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. Right. Um, I think the challenges are, you know, we see it in our sport because. We've grown in a lot of quote, non traditional hockey areas. So you might be the coach that was vol and told to get out there and you have no background in the sport potentially.
Right. And every, most young coaches, I think to get tied up in the, well, what's the secret drill? What's the secret. You know, practice activity that I can do. What's the, and really what. Is the stumbling block for me is the social complexity. Okay. Around, around sport, right? Again, the environment is everything.
It's the parents, it's the, it's the coaches, it's the teammates, it's managing the social environment probably has more. To do with whether kids fall in love with the sport, stick with it. Um, again, how they feel. So, and I love where we're going with this Ken. So like the idea that to save that our audience from going and trying to Google the 101 best ice hockey drills, what's this, what, what are some of the, again, what open up, open up the Ken Martel wisdom box and share what, what are the two or three social components that are, that are important for a grassroots coach to know?
You know, again, it's. you know, use kids names. Um, you know, find us find a moment. As many moments as you can to have some type of one on one interaction with your, with your players, even if it's just, you know, Hey, Peter, how you doing today? Um, you know, or Pete, nice play really liked the way you did X, Y, Z on that activity, you know, whatever it is, but, you know, find a way to connect from a human side of things.
Uh, I think that's probably the biggest. One of the biggest things for kids feeling a part of it. Um, and then there's always challenges around kids and their interactions there. They're just learning how to manage their emotions. They're learning how to they don't have the same coping skills with stress that we do as adults.
So there was real challenges around the social side of things.
And I think our jobs to try and help them navigate that, you know, you can Google, you know, in our sport, you want whatever the, you want to work on, you just Google it. There's a drill for it by 2, 000, 000 of them that pop up on the Internet that you imagine if we had had that earlier in our coaching careers, how YouTube would have helped us as a younger coach.
It's also a rabbit hole that you get because there's good and bad stuff there too. Like, you know, it's, it's having an understanding of, of those social relationships. I think that, um, end up at the end of the day being maybe more important than the technical tactical. It doesn't mean that technical tactical isn't really important, but I think it's easier for coaches to find the things to do.
I think most clubs out there, you know, they, they will have. Their list of things for the novice coach. Okay. Well, at this age or this, where these players are at, these are the things we want you to work on. And Oh, by the way, here's some drills, you know, a coaching director in a club, right there, there's some support from a, a, what to coach side of things.
And at the end of the day, the, the, how. Ends up being so much more important. It doesn't feel like that for the novice coach though. I think they, they, they're like, Oh my gosh, I've been told to come to the ice rink. I've got to go and survive. What do I do on Monday? Correct. Give me something to do. So they're looking for the what, and yet at the end of the day, the most important thing is probably the how.
And I, and again, I love that. And I appreciate that with the concept of fun. This idea about feeling a part of something you've talked about this idea about your coach helped you. Dave was his name. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. You, you, you, you mentioned that Dave created this feeling for you and it really sounds to me like you're talking about this idea about fun, these social relationships.
How important is it to create? a fun environment for our players. So they keep coming back. I mean, I think that's the mark of the youth coach, right? It's really do your players all come back and play the sport again next year. You know, if so, that's, that's probably a successful season. Um, and a lot of it is, is how they feel about things.
So that fun is I mean, obviously there's some really interesting research, uh, Amanda Visek and her group, uh, looking at fun and if you really delve into that, um, the, one of the top three things that across all ages, all gender, like, right, is positive coaching. Yes. Narrow things down. Positive coaching is one of the three clear top factors.
Determinants for fun. Now there's, there's lots of things that go into that and it means something different at every age, um, and every stage and what kids find fun, but don't kid ourselves, positive coaching is, is really one of the top. Components. So, and I think in like for me, when I hear what you've described about coach Dave and your wisdom about the social relationships, what we're trying to create these feelings of joy and enjoyment in our athletes, you're really speaking to the positive coaching connecting with the players as an individual.
That's absolutely marvelous. Well, Peter, I made, I made all those mistakes, right? Like I was the young coach that was way over into what the next trip. So lived all those things. And you go, you know what, at the end of the day, like there, there's a lot of things that you go back 30 years later and you, you go, geez, uh, you run into an old player and you're almost like, You know, you do.
You do. Sorry, Peter. I also have to apologize for how bad I was as a coach when I first started, but we're all on our journey, right? And you figure out what is more impactful, um, as you go, what works for you. So you mentioned the idea about the environment. You talk about now the how and the social relationships, incredible power there, creating this positive environment.
I want to take one step down the path about the what speak to the idea of one of the novice coaches is, is they always are wondered about when they show up. How do we teach the skills or the techniques of a sport and balance that out? With actually playing the sport. How does that connect to this environment, Ken?
Well, for the first, the first thing always in the back of my head is, is kids don't sign up to work on ice hockey. They sign up to play ice hockey. So, you know, a lot of what we do needs to simulate play. Um, can we find ways for them to explore their technical abilities, um, in a more playful, playful manner?
It doesn't mean that if, you know, if they truly, really struggle with something technically, um, it's okay to maybe go and do something along those lines, for sure. Uh, you know, the way I look at it is that the variability is in their instability at doing something. Right. But if they can do something within some kind of reasonable bandwidth of acceptability, then you know what, put them in something where they have a chance to play to use it in, in a more game like environment where they have more autonomy.
I mean if you think of social determination theory and how this wraps into. to what we do. Um, you know, again, I'm looking for ways to give my players autonomy, even within their, their working on their technical abilities, right? Yes. Like for us in our sport, we really try hard for our coaches to understand that technique is not skill.
Yes. And people tend to look at technique as quote unquote skill. It's not. Um, there is no such thing as quote the idealized technique. Look at the best players in the world. They all do, they may do similar things, but they all do it looking very differently. Correct. What works for them. And, you know, in open ended sports like ours and, and soccer, you know, and lacrosse and some others, um, you know, nothing happens exactly the same way twice.
Correct. It may happen similar, but never exact. So our players are always having to adjust and adapt. And so training needs to force them to adjust and adapt and right, how, how, how they interact with the environment. So their technical ability for us is about learning how to interact with. opponents, teammates and everything else.
And for me, that's, that's fun. Like kids like to compete. Um, you know, they like to play. They, so start putting them in more of those environments where we're not always telling them what to do. It's, they, they get to problem solve a little bit. Right. And, and USA hockey. The problem solving the autonomy, the decision making lots of player decisions is fun.
Kids want to make decisions. Now, USA hockey has taken on some real initiatives with sort of to help with this grassroots environment with how you've structured some guidance to the grassroots coaches. Could you speak to some of those initiatives a little bit? Um, well, our A. D. M. R. Program for really player development.
Um, the fundamentals that we look at, uh, you really, for us, we tell coaches, there's five elements of a great practice in our minds that you can narrow it down to whether they're eight, you or they're 18, you in our, in our world. Um, and those are, uh, fun. Practice always has to be fun. Uh, there needs to be constant decision making.
So there's that autonomy for our players to make some choices. Practice has to look kind of like the game. Uh, they need lots of puck touches, which just for us that with little kids, it might be just that they do have a puck more often for the, the older kids, it's, they're, they're just getting more, more activity, more reps at what it is that we're trying to explore and then challenge, you know, that stretch, how do we, how do we.
You know, that desirable level of difficulty that we want to put into practice so that they're not bored. They're, they're engaged. Um, something that we, we talk about what video gamers, you know, designers have done, right? It's always that challenge that is just that level that they've got to strive for, but can attain it.
And then I've accomplished it. Great. They get this reward that I've been able to accomplish something. Then we, you know, up the challenge a little bit. And so those five things. Should be in every practice and I think that's an incredible, powerful checklist for all of us who are coaching challenge meeting the players where they are touching the interacting with the puck, the ball, the stick, the golf club, whatever, right?
The idea that there's autonomy, that they're making decisions and making their, their, their choices and that it's fun. Like we forget, like we're competing, as you mentioned, video games and those things, those things work for a reason and our, and our sports environments that we create can absolutely create that fun and draw in, draw in the players.
There's a quote from Johan Fabry from the Swedish FA is as many as possible. as long as possible in the best environment possible. How does that resonate with you? I think that's absolutely fantastic. That is, that should be the, the mantra for every NGB out there, every youth club. out there. Um, especially if you're interested, you know, obviously wanted all of our kids have a great youth sport experience.
Now we wanted to be lifelong participants in our sport. But if you are looking at this from a, you know, a performance end of things Like so much of what goes on at the youth level, you know, we think we know, and we have no idea who's going to turn out to be good, you know, like, so give every kid a positive experience, um, get out of their way a little bit.
And it's interesting that they'll figure it out. So for me, that quote is spectacular. And you talk about this idea about giving every kid an opportunity that for me, it, it speaks to some of the thing that's in the literature about player centered player focused environments. And the idea that at the youth level, we really don't know who's going to come out at the end of the track, no matter how many, how many crystal balls or how many online searches we run.
Well, you know, and this is. This is common in a lot of sports. I think, um, I haven't done the research and others to know for sure, but I'm going to assume that it's similar, but we look because every kid is registered with us, we have the ability to kind of go and look at, you know, what teams they played on, what, what clubs they played in and their path, so to speak.
And. What's truly fascinating and it shouldn't surprise anybody, but the programs that are out there, the local programs that are out there trying to aggregate all the best players. At 9, 10 years of age and you look then and you say, okay, well, who survived by the time they're 16 and it's, it's literally over 80% of the kids are gone.
And when you look at the less than 20% that are still left, um, they're typically not the best players. The best players are somebody that did something else. Yes. And surfaced and grew in some other way. And it's not necessarily that early bloomer. And you mentioned this idea about like, let's call it like the idea about all star teams, cherry picking talent.
What's the, what's the, and you talk about the, the attrition for those players. What's the fallacy within the grassroots environment? Well, it's that they need that competition. They need that. My kid needs to be pushed, you know, at this whatever level. And, you know, anytime you group a team, some kids are going to get more and some kids get less, even if you're trying to make it even just that's just The way things work out sometimes and when you have these competitive teams with people are trying to make it competitive, there's definitely some kids with more and some kids with less, but even the kids that get the more, you know, they don't.
I just know in our sport, nothing shakes out in the wash till after they all go through puberty. Like it's right. Correct. Knowing Ken, Ken, you speak to that piece about when we select before puberty, we tend to select the early developers, the kids born earlier in the birth year. And it, it, it becomes, it's just, it's all the kids that we lose out on.
The ones that just go, ah, you know what coach doesn't think. I mean, I'm going to go play, I'm gonna go play soccer. I'm gonna go play some of it. Right. And they'll choose something else. I mean, we always say that kids vote with their feet. They're not having fun. They're not enjoying it. It's not what they, they want, or they're not having the experience.
Um, they just walk away and no one pays attention to the ones that walk away or we'll have the local club that, you know, has. 800 players in their, their club every year. And they'll point to the one kid that survived. And, oh, you know, we, we had X, Y, Z that made it to the NHL, you know, back in 1982. Wait a second.
You know, like And not that that's the end all be all for, for kids to, but if you have that many kids, somebody should turn out. I mean, we, we have this, you know, do our kids, do they become better in spite of us or because of us? I think it's, I think it's a, I think it's a really self reflective question that a lot of us as coaches can ask.
Yeah. And sometimes the harsh reality, as you know. Again, speaking to our younger selves here, it's actually despite of us. And, and, and I can, I can honestly say I've had some players in my past that have turned out and you go, did I really, was I really part of that? You know, or did I really have the impact that I felt like I did well, and you always have the youth coach that is out there that's aggregating, you know.
Um, they'll run around and they'll say, well, look at this player, look at that player, you know, that I've moved really. Okay. You know, and it's the one, okay, we'll make another, I'll get you my mortgage. You can't make another, you know? Yes. Right. And, but it's, it's because of me that they turned out that's that they run around with and it's like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa.
And you mentioned before the idea about. When they go on these, some of these select teams that they, some get more, some get less in the grassroots environment, speak to the importance of playing time. Well, no one gets better sitting on the bench like it should be kind of obvious, but it's not just that it's.
You know, it's what situations they get put in, um, you know, do they have a chance to learn to fail, to, to succeed, to, you know, to be involved and, you know, in, in our sport, it's the, it can be really subtle too, you know, um, cause we're a sport that changes our players pretty, pretty rapidly. So it's why we, we want really small roster sizes.
and team sizes at those younger ages, you know, cause the physiology prior to, you know, their adolescent growth spurt, they're like really the little kids, cause they can go forever at a moderate to vigorous pace. They're, they're, they're fine. So we want to play every other shift. We don't need to worry about them, you know, lactate development and, you know, them fatiguing and just get out there and play.
But so having that experience going all the time, but what you'll see is, Oh, well, our team went on the power play. And all of a sudden, the coach is like, well, hold up, Billy, um, we're just going to leave, you know, Peter and his group out there a little longer. Well, because perceived to be the better kids, right?
Yes. And pretty quick, Billy goes, yeah, coach, I think I'm pretty good. Correct. It's Billy, Billy, Billy picks up on how you make him on how you 100%. And, you know, so it doesn't take much to change how kids feel, what they perceive, what their tolerance for risk becomes, um, because they need to take risks.
It's where they learn to find boundaries, right? Like, correct. Can you speak a little bit more about that risk, particularly as it connects to the importance of making mistakes? Yeah. Well, again, we, you know, there's, there's feedback just from the sport itself, right? We don't even have to tell the kids when they go out and they try something and it doesn't work.
They know it. That didn't work. Right. Yes. Turn the puck over and somebody scores, you know, typically they start to go there and maybe not try that in that situation. So. But they need to explore their boundaries, like they don't become better without, um, trying things, hanging on to the puck a little bit longer, maybe than, you know, sometimes we would want them to, right?
They need to learn how to, to respond when there's somebody on them in pressure, right? That's part of sport. If they just grab the throw it away, throw the ball away, just get rid of it. Um, you know, because we've put too much pressure on them, then they're really not learning how to solve the problems of the sport a little bit.
And we have to be comfortable that Now, you know what? They're going to turn it over every once in a while. It's okay. And I think, and I think they'll, they'll move on as long as we, as long as we, as the coaches provide that, that safe environment for them to discover the next one or play the next shift.
Yep. And you know what? We can shape. That as well. Um, you know, we can even our best players, you know, the ones that are trying me or they're relying on, you know, certain abilities too much like we can start to handicap a little bit. So they look to explore different solutions. You know, how do we help them broaden their tool set, so to speak.
And their toolbox in different situations. There's lots of things coaches can do. So, and give me one example, Ken, about what a coach can do to help meet those players that may be at a variety of skill or levels within their team. You know, like I might give them different goals. We might set up a small game, you know, a small side of game that they're playing, but, you know, maybe with, with Peter here, I'm saying, well, Peter, um, I really want you to try and look to see if you can X, Y, Z, whatever it is.
Right. I like that. I can give that player an extra task that they know you, you know, we know. And every time you can do something or can see that, you know, we make a light go. Good job, Peter. You know, like I give them, you know, intention shapes attention, right? So if I can help shape their intention, um, they start to look for different things.
Um, it doesn't mean I'm telling them when to do something. Um, they have to see it, they have to perceive it in the moment, but, um, I'm, I'm looking to how do I guide their attention. And again, and I think it's a place where that now I can help them, I can meet them where they are. I can connect with them as an individual.
I can guide them in that way. Again, can we've got a lot of other things that I know that will have our audience will absolutely want us to bring you back. However, you've mentioned 1 group in the grassroots environment that I want to make sure that we hone in on just a little bit. And that would be the parents.
How do we, how do we meet our parents in this day and age to become better collaborators and better partners with us? I think, uh, we try and tell everybody an informed parent is an ally. And yeah, it, I think it's just. It's a difficult thing, right? Again, it comes back to the social complexity around our sport that we talked about.
But, um, if left in a vacuum, they will assume things about what's going on, what you're doing as a coach, what, what's happening, and that could be right on or more than likely it's way off. Right? So the over communication, um, Uh, is probably the single best thing that I think coaches can do, um, because they feel a part of it then to, you know, when you talk, no one's trying to create a bad experience for their kids.
Um, I believe that they, they really want what's best, uh, and It's how do we interact? How do we shape the experience for little Peter to do? Well, you know, so over communicate is really the just a simple tactic that I started doing when I switched from our national teams back to Coaching kids. I create practice plans.
And so I send the practice plan. I email it to the parents because one, I want them to know that I'm the coach that I'm, I'm organized, but I have a plan here, right? That there's a lot more work going on behind the scenes than just me showing up at the ice rink. and jumping on the ice and winging it. Yes.
And so it's a subtle way and I start, I'll kind of write, write it up in a certain way that they kind of get the message about what we're, what we're doing and Right. In a lot of respects. And so it's just another little thing. I've already done the work. I'm mean it created the Brax plan. Just hit send it.
Right. It helps 'em. Right. It's just expanding your audience. Yeah. They feel a little bit more part of it. Like there's, and there's other ways to communicate on a regular basis, but, you know, find simple things that you're already doing the work with and. Okay. Send it out. Absolutely. And you, you mentioned the idea that no parent, the parents intention, they're not going to, they don't really want to sign their child up for ice hockey and then create a bad experience.
How do you help them? How do you advise those parents to talk about? How do you speak to your son or daughter after they come off the ice? How do you, do you talk about that post game conversation at all? You know, it's, it's the, it's the line, you know, like I love to watch a play, um, that has been shown to be probably one of the most impactful things.
So we just tell them, look, they really don't want instruction from you. Like I remember my own dad trying to tell me something and I'm always going, dad, you don't know what you're talking about. Right. Just. Just be supportive. I mean, that's what the most important thing. The power and impact of, uh, I love watching you play is so important for our grassroots players again, back into where you started.
I love watching you play. Imagine how our grassroots players, how that would make them feel. As they come off that ice or come off the field to be able to come back to come back again the next time. I know our audience may want to touch base with you, Ken. Where can they find you? What's the best way to get in touch?
Uh, my email is probably the best. It's kenmusahockey.org. Awesome, Ken, I appreciate that. We'll definitely reference that in the show notes. Okay. My final question. Mm-hmm. budget is no object. Okay, you can place a billboard or a sign in every hockey rink all across the country. What's your message?
So we actually have tried to do that. And so like that. Okay. So we have, it's a, we have a banner that we've. You've given out to a lot of our local associates. You actually had schools. We've had others kind of jump in and say, can we get one of those? And it was a joint thing with the National Hockey League that kind of supported this.
But it says in small letters, let them and then big letters, let them play, let them have fun, let them fail, let them learn, let them succeed. And then big at the bottom, just let them be kids. And I think that kind of speaks to the experience that we're trying to it. Create for them. Um, when they show up at youth sport, I think it's great.
And again, certainly all of those things would certainly create a positive youth sport environments for our young players. Ken Martel, thank you very much again for joining on the podcast. We'll have to have you back very soon. Appreciate it, Peter. Take care.