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Long Game: A Heated Rivalry Podcast is a re-watch and deep-dive podcast dedicated to Heated Rivalry, hosted by Declan and Silvan. In each episode, we revisit key moments across the series, unpacking the slow-burn tension, character development, and emotional beats that make the heated rivalry world so compelling. Through thoughtful discussion, close reading, and a fan-informed lens, we explore themes of competition, intimacy, identity, and growth over time, celebrating not just the heat of the rivalry, but the long game it takes to truly understand these characters and their relationship.
New episodes published every Sunday
Declan (00:00)
Hi everyone, welcome back to Long Game Heat at Rivalry podcast. My name is Declan, this is Sylvan and before we get started, we would like to put a little bit of an announcement out. Sylvan and I have a plan to organize an event, a bit of a meet and greet, just to come together in person and talk about Heat at Rivalry, the books, the book club, anything that you're interested in that sort of coincides with the podcast.
you like to call me in person then you can call and see us in Belfast on the 19th of july. A little short notice but if you're able to attend please let us know we'll put a link and that will connect you to a google doc which will allow you to put in your name your address details anything like that and to sort of gauge interest to see if anyone is interested in joining us and Belfast on the 19th so if that's someone that you're interested in if you have a bit of free time or you can catch a quick flight then
Yeah, definitely check that out. We'll be releasing more details about that later on this month.
Silvan (01:02)
So where we left off in the previous episode was chapter nineteen. So we're picking up from chapter twenty, and now Declan, things are heating up, things are moving at a faster pace in a similar way as the sun has been moving in the UK this week. It is 34 degrees this week. I am sweating from every crevice and orifice in my body. So if you can hear my fan, I obey.
Declan (01:16)
Mmm.
Silvan (01:29)
I apologize sincerely, but I cannot live without it right now.
Declan (01:33)
Yeah, Sylvan will spontaneously combust if he turns the fan off. you know, give him a little bit of grace. And it's funny because I'm in Ireland at the moment and we are getting like a lovely summer that we never get because for some reason it's just like 10 degrees cooler here. So we're getting like a nice 24 or 25 degrees while everyone in England are being cooked alive in the pots of hell, which, you know, unfortunate for you.
Silvan (01:59)
It's like being in an air fryer right now.
Declan (02:03)
Ha ha.
Silvan (02:06)
But yeah, so in chapter 20, what we see is it's interesting because not a huge amount happens, but there are certain things that happen that really piqued my interest. So here we have this infamous sort of Skype call that Ilya and Shane have, where Ilya is like, you wear glasses, and that catches them off guard. I wanted to get your take on on this because I don't think they mentioned that Shane wears glasses anywhere else.
Declan (02:36)
No. So I'm going to go full English teacher here. I'm going to break this down and read way too much into it. Basically, I think these glasses are like a symbol of Shane's more private side. This is the side of him that is exclusively like removed from hockey. Like this is not something that he would wear during hockey. It's not going to do with any of the sport, anything like that. This is just Shane is his sort of natural habitat and his daily routine.
And Ilya is getting to see it for the first time. Like this is like domestic Shane. This is Shane throughout the lens of possible boyfriends. Cute, it's sweet, it's very nerdy, it's nothing overly like sexual, even though it turns Ilya on like nothing else. But there is something quite cute and wholesome about Shane in his little glasses reading his little book at home on his bed.
It's not a typically sexual image, but for some reason, Ilya is entranced by the idea of this domesticated version of Shane and this more private version of Shane that no one else gets to see. Obviously everyone got to watch like the yoga thing and him doing his little documentary by his cottage, but this is actually like a true private version of Shane and
Ilya is the only one who gets to see it outside of maybe Shane's parents. yeah, it's like getting to see a new version of Shane and Ilya just falls in love with this version just as much as he's fallen in love with the version that everyone else sees.
Silvan (04:16)
I love that you say entrance because that's what it actually feels like. It does feel like a trance like stay for Ilya. And whilst I was reading this, and I know there's no connection with this, but I was thinking about Jonathan Bailey and his slotty little glasses. Not my words that I've chosen, that's just what the internet call them, because I know I've I've been very critical of about using that word whilst describing Shane, but it just reminded me of the whole Jonathan Bailey thing during the Jurassic.
park movie premieres that he was doing last year.
Declan (04:48)
Yeah, it's so funny. Like growing up, having glasses was like seen as the, oh my God, having glasses is you're a nerd, you're a dork and you're so uncool and whatever. But see now it's like, oh, glasses, glasses are so sexy. Like you're an intellectual or you're so clever. Oh, wow. And so the meaning has changed. And it's so funny now that in like modern romance content that it's seen as this like alluring thing. It's sort of like, oh, that's kind of cheeky. That's kind of.
You it's almost like you're playing a character. It's like a role play. It's, it's so interesting how that flip that sorry switch has flipped. And I think it sort of coincides with the rise of like the alternative guy of like the guy with the novel in his back pocket. That's sort of aesthetic, which is like a new form or like a new popular form of attraction towards man. It's not just like the big jock and with the muscles and the sports t-shirt, it's soft sort of.
well dressed, well read, literature focused guy with glasses. It's such a funny thing that this is like a new sort of popular trend in how men are viewed in terms of attractiveness.
Silvan (06:04)
Completely, 'cause I've worn glasses most of my life and I got bullied for wearing glasses as a child. Like anything that makes you stand out when you're a you know, when you're younger or you're a teenager, you get bullied for. And it's funny how now people are like, like I like your glasses and I even lived with somebody years and years ago who wore fake glasses. Now I have to caveat this by saying they blocked out the blue light and for those of you who are listening that used, you know, inverted commas, I was like, Stop it.
If they blocked up blue light, why are you wearing them outside? This makes no sense. so I have an issue when people wear fake glasses like the rest of us got bullied and we had to earn this. You don't get to wear fake glasses because they look cool now.
Declan (06:49)
You had to suffer
so now it's your turn to get the praise instead of someone coming along and stealing from under you.
Silvan (06:51)
Right?
Exactly. And as you were talking about this sort of like new sort of stereotype of the guy that reads and the book in his back pocket and probably has a tote bag or something, I immediately thought of Jess from The Gilmore Girls.
Declan (07:13)
Yeah, it's also like Jacob Elordi coded as well.
Silvan (07:18)
Yeah, yeah. So you know what? I'm all here for that stereotype, so I'm all good. But when I was reading this, you know, we get this they I think they call it a Skype. They connect via Skype and I and that's a bit of a throwback now because as we know Skype no longer exists. They got sort of absorbed into teams. But I can't help but think, and maybe this is just me. I can't help to think of all
all the internet boyfriends we all had growing up as teenagers that we never actually met but we were madly in love with, that we would Skype on a daily basis, and you know, you were saving up money for one day visiting this person. And this is what it reminded me of is this
Fantasy in a way.
Declan (08:10)
It's interesting that you have that read of it because I never really had that experience. Like I never like did anything on the down low at all. I was like, I'm going to try to date girls until I come out. And then when I came out then I could like, just openly pursued anything I wanted. But like that experience of like meeting someone online, talking to them, open up to them and
connecting with them on a level where you've not met them face to face. Like that's sort of like a foreign experience to me. so that's interesting that that's your take from it. And I can sort of see that now. as like it's almost paying homage to those sort of queer online relationships that, you know, don't, didn't get to see the light of day, but they still have like that connection going on as well at the same time. That's interesting.
Silvan (09:09)
Yeah, I'm I'm surprised because I felt like this was such a universal experience and I'm realizing maybe it wasn't. I'm curious to hear from the listeners if anyone else had like an internet boyfriend or internet girlfriend or significant other that, you know, was this sort of teenage crush kind of thing. Because for me it was there was safety in these online romances. You know, you were able to experience parts of a relationship.
You know, you felt the connectedness, the safety. I think at the time I had intentions to meet, but I knew it wasn't going to happen. But there was a part that you could experience if you perhaps weren't out, for example, in your own life. And there would just it w it felt really wholesome. I mean I got a little steamy, but it felt really wholesome for the most part.
Declan (10:00)
Yeah, it's almost like you can dip your toe into the pond and not fear having to fully jump in. Yeah, and like you said, it's also a safe way of being able to act out your sexuality in some sort of way that can bring you satisfaction, but it also keeps you safe. You don't need to do anything in public. You don't need to worry about being caught out. Yeah, to be honest,
It never occurred to me that that would have been like an option I could have tried. For me, it was more about like denial of myself. So as soon as I accepted it for what it was, I didn't really feel the need to like hide it anymore or try to be hidden. And so I just sort of didn't, I didn't have that experience, which is very interesting. Yeah. That's fascinating.
Silvan (10:55)
And speaking of experiences, you know, you really get in this chapter the sense of Ilya having the experience of fulfilling his duties as a son. So he says this in this chapter very early on. You know, he talks about sort of
His brother being the executor of his father's estate, and Ilya had fulfilled his duties as a son, and it feels like there's this closing of the book quite literally for him here.
Declan (11:24)
Yeah, yeah, you do get the idea that he's everything that he can. He's provided for the family. He's fulfilled his obligations to his father. He's done what is culturally appropriate for him to do. And now he's sort of done. And it's interesting that the brother was the executor of the state because obviously
Ilya is clearly the more responsible child and the fact that the father would have made that decision that it wouldn't have been Ilya tells you a lot about how much he actually appreciated Ilya and everything that he actually did which was not very much. Which for Ilya is probably devastating to be honest. I mean he's tried his best to be the perfect image
For his father, is definitely the most successful out of both of the children and has been the breadwinner, the provider, the award winner, the one to push the family name into different stratospheres and social circles. And yet in the end, didn't mean anything to the father. Ilya could never have pleased him.
Silvan (12:48)
I think you're right. I think there is an element where Ilya was never going to feel fulfilled in that relationship with his family, despite being the breadwinner, despite literally funding everyone else's lifestyle. And I wonder, in a way, in the book, it's very evident that the brother is the father's caretaker or caregiver, I suppose, because Ilya isn't there. And they don't really make mention of this in the book.
at least Rachel Reed doesn't from what I've read. And I think that's a it's an extra layer in the TV show that they've added that helps map out this relationship and flesh it out a little bit more, which I appreciated in the T V show.
Declan (13:33)
Yeah definitely the TV show does a better job of establishing the sort of relationship that Ilya does have with his father and makes it more clear about how torn Ilya is in terms of what he needs to be doing to look after his father because you get the idea that Ilya is doing it out of love as it's a complex mixed up sort of love and this sort of real need for his father's approval in the TV show whereas in the book
definitely feels more like an obligation. It doesn't feel like Ilya loves his father at all. It's more like something that he has to do because he's family and he does what needs to be required of him and there's no real love lost in that sense. And to be honest when I reread the long game that sort of just confirmed that for me. The way in which Ilya talks or rather doesn't talk about his father is a big
big noticeable point in that book. I'll not say any more on that because I've not read it yet. But yeah, I definitely get the sense that this is all out of obligation and the love between him and his father in the book is completely lost. Whereas in the TV show, you can sort of see Ilya really like toying and fighting against the idea that his father doesn't really love him or rather can't express it in a healthy way. And Ilya is torn about trying to
get that love from him and he still cares, which seems to be his motivation in the show, which is a lot more tragic, I think, and lends a bit more depth to the character.
Silvan (15:12)
And it adds that motivation to yearn for his father's affection, his father's love, his father's respect, is what helps you connect to Ilya. And it makes Ilya a lot more
I'm struggling with the word here. I was gonna say palatable, but that's not the word. It's it makes you really I mean it for me it it helps me connect to Ilya's grief in a way. in a way that I'm not connected in the book at all.
Declan (15:38)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's because in the book it's very clear cut. doesn't like his father. He does this out of obligation and then after when he dies, he dies. Elliot fulfills his role within the family and what is culturally appropriate and then he leaves. Cuts off his brawler, doesn't want anything else to do with the family. He was doing it out of obligation. T.V. Elliot is a lot different. He was doing it out of a need for his father's love.
of unresolved issues between the two, a very complicated relationship, much more human, much more realistic. mean, there's a lot of people that I would see and clients I would have that have very complicated relationships with their parents, where they're very torn between this uncontrollable love that they do have for them and the pain that those parents inflict upon them, sometimes unintentionally, sometimes intentionally.
And it creates a very complicated mix of emotions for them where they can't really work it out. And whenever they're encountering grief then in relation to those people, it becomes even more complicated because like there's the guilt of hating someone that you love and wanting them to not be gone, but also wanting them to be gone and feeling bad about it, but not feeling bad about it. It's this like whole sphere of emotions that
really take a lot of time to pick apart and to dissect in a way that helps you understand in the end. I feel with TV Ilya you get a lot more of that realistic element of the complicated dynamics within families. Whereas book Ilya is a bit more straightforward in that sense. just sort of, okay, his father's dead. I've done the funeral. I'm cutting my brother off. We're done. I'm not going back to Russia.
Silvan (17:35)
And what you talk about there is there are lots of different types of grief. And I'm remembering a podcast I did with Litsa Williams on my other podcast from and she's from What's Your Grief? And she was the one who told me about l the different types of grief, and their book does it so well. I'll I'll link it in because it's actually a really good listen. and so I imagine when Ilya's father was still alive, but they knew the diagnosis, that's what you call anticipatory grief.
Declan (17:39)
you
Silvan (18:05)
Or ambiguous loss. It's when you lose the person whilst they're still living. And I think for Ilya, after his father dies, you know, there's a period of of complicated grief where there is a lot of nuances. It's not just, you know, that he misses him, he misses him, but he didn't love him, and perhaps, and you know, the way he was raised, and and so I think there are lots of things that come up in that grief in itself. One of the things I
wanted to talk about in this chapter and we talked about it a little bit in the previous episode was this preoccupation that Ilya has in wanting to see Shane's bedroom.
And I mean there were so many layers of what we talked about last time. I really, really enjoyed it. And here, again, Ilya's like, show me your room because they're on Skype. And when he does, it's quite it made me chuckle because Ilya decided he didn't care about the view or the bedroom anymore.
Declan (18:51)
Yeah.
Silvan (19:06)
It was as boring as he had been expecting. It could have been a hotel room.
Declan (19:12)
Okay.
Silvan (19:13)
Now this doesn't surprise me. Ilya is wanting to get, and like you said, this more intimate side of Shane, you know, Shane with the glasses, Shane in his natural sort of habitat. And then when he realizes, you know, it's it it's a showroom essentially, it doesn't surprise me.
Declan (19:31)
Good.
Yeah, I mean, why should it? Because Ilya is just fishing for more details about this guy he's in love with. He wants to know everything. He wants to know every detail about this guy because he is so madly in love with him that any bit of information about him, any extra information about who he is, how he lives, what his life is like is gold dust to Ilya. like
Come on, relationship calls. Imagine someone loving you and being so obsessed with you to that level of detail where I just want to even know where you're sleeping tonight. I want to know what it looks like. I don't care if it's boring. I just care that you're showing me and you're letting me in and you're being vulnerable with me. And it's such a small thing, but to Ilya it's the world. Because it's Shane finally accepting that he is not separating Ilya from his private life anymore.
He's now welcome into it and he's now a part of it. And that is a new stage of their relationship where it's a lot more domestic. It's a lot more real. Like they've been in HR spaces now. They have been in HR private moments and private places. And there you go. Boyfriends much?
Silvan (20:56)
Literally. And speaking of domestic, there's a part in the chapter where Ilya says Ilya wanted more than anything to be able to cover Shane's body with his own. Now, if anyone out there has a weighted blanket, they will know being smothered by somebody else's body weight, it doesn't have to be sexual, is like one of the most weirdly comforting things ever.
Declan (21:24)
Yeah, it is really comforting. It's like, it's affection, it's comfort, it's relaxation. It's just that feeling of contact, of being held. And it can be completely platonic as well. It's sort of like a feeling you would have got like a cuddle from your parents, like a cuddle from your aunt or someone you cared about or...
cuddle with a friend like anything it gives that warm sort of endorphins of like I'm looked after I'm safe I'm comfortable I'm loved and that is clearly what Ilya is trying to say here is I want to make this guy feel warm calm loved and comfortable like that's that's essentially what he's saying in that
Silvan (22:16)
And thank God they're both hockey players, because can you imagine this massive man of Ilya Rosanoff lying on top of a regular person who didn't who wasn't as built or strong as someone like Shane. He would literally crush someone's bones.
Declan (22:22)
It's perfect.
Yeah, it would be like, this is really nice, can you get off me?
Silvan (22:36)
Right, but it would feel so good. Like on a sensory level, it just tickles as part of my brain where I'm like, Don't get off, just stay there.
Declan (22:40)
Yeah
It would be great for like 15 seconds and it's like, okay, you're so kidding me. Get off me. Which is typically how it goes for me, which is like, this is nice, but get off me. Get off me right now. You're too warm. Get off.
Silvan (22:58)
Right, and you talk about this sort of affectionate side of Ilya and and what you see in this chapter as well is there's this a dom sub play that we get again and it takes me back to Vegas because they talk about Ilya says things like, I think you like to be told what to do, Hollander and Shane sucks in a breath and says, Maybe a little and then Ilya says, And you're a little show off. Shane says, I'm not, and Ilya says, You are.
You love praise. You want everyone to see how good you are. And then Shane says, I'm almost done. Yeah, well, so do you. So fair. And then Ilya says no, I know I am good. I don't care what people say.
Declan (23:43)
Yeah, explaining the difference in confidence between the two. Ilya is very confident in himself and his sexuality and the way that he presents himself to the world. He is not shy at all at being who he is. Even in terms of his sexuality, is much more caught up about coming out than Ilya is. Honestly, Ilya would do it tomorrow if he felt he could be with Shane forever. Whereas Shane is a lot more ahead of him.
Silvan (23:46)
What are your thoughts?
Declan (24:13)
And also even in the bedroom, it's the same. Ilja is very sexually adventurous and he knows what he wants and he's not afraid to experiment. And so he has, and this has followed him and instilled him with a confidence. He knows what he wants. He knows what he likes. Whereas Shane is a bit more nervous about it. He's a bit more withdrawn about it. It takes a bit more time to coax it out of him. But I also find the idea of you like to be controlled for Shane.
It's because Shane is constantly trying to control everything, all things at once, the world and himself. so having the ability to pass it on to somebody else for a while to like, okay, I can't and don't want to deal with the pressure of this control anymore. Can you take control for me instead for a while? And that must feel like such a relief. It must feel so relaxing, but also a little bit saucy as well.
dangerous it's like I don't usually do this and it's just probably a massive relief that he is around someone that he feels safe and comfortable enough with to relinquish control for his change which for someone who as we know going forward is neurodivergent and also I think OCD yeah this is a big thing for him
Silvan (25:38)
And it takes a huge amount of trust. And I'm going to make a link between Shane Hollander and Jennifer Lopez. Wait for it. It'll make sense. Now I know I trashed JLo rom comms a couple episodes ago, but that was only like the newer ones. The old ones were great. Made in Manhattan, masterpiece. but I remember when Jennifer Lopez got married then to Mark Anthony, they asked her about sort of like her domestic role at home or something like that. Because
Declan (25:40)
One.
addressing.
Silvan (26:07)
You know, Jennifer Lopez was she's J-Lo, right? She has multiple businesses and a singing career and a music career and a huge movie career as well, and the clothing lines and the skincare and all that. And she actually said in this interview, She's not like that at home. She's quite traditional in her sort of values at home. You know, she doesn't wear the pants in that relationship, which I as a teenager I thought, I don't get it at the time, and I get it now.
And I get it within this context, it takes a huge amount of trust for Shane to be able to say You take over. I need I also just need a break.
Declan (26:48)
Hmm. Yeah, I think it's actually, I think this is the real, no, this is me speaking just from my own personal opinion and perspective. think this idea of women wanting to be controlled and they want a man that's going to do whatever and know, a big strong man is going to protect everyone. He's going to run my life and he's going look after me and do blah, blah, blah. I don't think that's actually the intention or the need. It is.
The idea of being with someone that can take control for you when you want them to, who does take initiative, does take the lead, but respects your autonomy while they're doing it and respects your needs and your wants and someone that you can trust to get things done for you, whenever you can do them for yourself. I think that is the
actual version of that that people are looking for. A man who is confident in himself, takes initiative, is able to do what needs to be done and can look after you whenever you don't want to have to look after yourself. That's a lot more appealing than a man who comes in and tells me what to do and controls everything that I do.
Silvan (28:06)
Isn't that a dream though? Like, that is the dream. Like, we all we all love like a verse king. Like, come in, do your thing, and then keep going. but yeah. and there's this point to you know, continue the smart, but there's this point in the Skype call where things heat up. However, there is a there's a change here, there's a sweetness, there's an intimacy here that.
Declan (28:19)
Anyway, let's go.
Silvan (28:36)
Because I think it's Shane that says, I think I'd rather see your face to Ilya rather than, you know, his penis or whatever, whilst they're Skyping. And there's the part in this chapter where they where Shane says, you know, it felt like they were really in bed together, facing each other, talking at the end of a long day. And there's this
Declan (28:45)
and
Silvan (29:00)
domestication sort of fantasy that's happening here where there is that trust and the intimacy intimacy that you were talking about.
Declan (29:09)
Yeah, yeah, they just want to be boyfriends. It's so clear at this point, they're just after the domestic life. They want to wake up together. They want to stay in bed together, have their lazy days and wake up and the first thing they see is the person they love. their face. And yeah, that's kind of the goal for most people is to be able to have that and have that connection and that warmth and that comfort and that security.
And they're getting a glimpse of it in the Skype call. They're getting a sort of look through the window, you could say, of what they could have if things go right, if they can manage this relationship in a way that is beneficial for both of them. it turns out right in the end. And yeah, it probably fills Shane and Ilya with a whole load of longing for each other.
because there's also the reality of their jobs. Like they're hockey players. They travel the country. Nine months out of the, like eight or nine months out of the year. Like they could, could be separated from each other and only get to see each other like once a month or whatever. Like this is the reality of what their life could look like going forward.
Yes, they'll have those sweet moments and they'll have the moments of domestic bliss and being together and being in love. But there's also the reality of their careers and their lives and what that would actually look like trying to make that long distance work. yeah, I imagine it's very, very confusing and complicated for them.
Silvan (30:53)
And long distance is hard work. I've never really done long distance in a real relationship. Like I said, I had internet boyfriends when I was younger, and I don't know how real that was, to be honest. so I'm curious to hear from some of the listeners about what a long distance relationship actually entails.
Declan (31:04)
Yeah.
Well, I can speak to some of it. Like my current partner, we were long distance for close to a year. And it is hard. It's complicated in terms of scheduling and time management and financial cost as well, traveling and also just missing the person and them not being there is
like a mentally taxing thing, it's hard. ideally if you're in a relationship, you want to be with that person kind of all the time. You're talking about someone who is like one of your closest friends, if not your best friend, and not being able to see them whenever you want or coming home to them whenever you want. that's hard. That's not easy. And it's mentally taxing, financially taxing and
Physically taxing as well because a lot of times you're having to compromise sleep, your whole day plan. sometimes you'll just want to see them for a night and so you'll travel two hours to see them, but you're also supposed to be in work in your city at nine o'clock the next day and so you're traveling back at six in the morning. is complicated, but if you care enough about the person you will try, but it's
not a long term sustainable thing. The toll is too heavy. So you really, really need to work on an exit strategy for the long distance to really make a long distance relationship work, I think.
Silvan (32:55)
Which is what surprises me about how long Shane and Ilya have been going on at this, because for the most part it was sexual and it was hookups and we see this slow sort of morphing into the boyfriend sort of experience in a way. And this has already surpassed longer than what I anticipated it might have gone on for in real life.
Declan (33:24)
Yeah, I agree with that.
Silvan (33:27)
I don't think they would have been a situationship for this long.
Declan (33:34)
No, I do genuinely believe that there are probably people out there like outliers, one-offs who have had this experience. The mental torment of that is astronomical. I think for these two, it kind of helps the fact that they are separating their feelings from the hookups.
for a good chunk of those years. They're sort of living under the delusion that they can keep feeling and physical separate. And so they're able to effectively lighten themselves for a number of years, which probably kept them sane during that time. If they were fully in love and fully open and doing the domestic stuff and all that part of the relationship, as soon as they let themselves feel that, it was like game over. It was like, I...
I know what it's like to be with you now in the way like this and now I cannot unfeel it. I cannot unsee it. And so now I am constantly longing for it. And I think that's why they've gotten they've gotten this far because they have been denying that sort of domesticated romantic side of the relationship. But then when they allowed themselves to finally experience it. All of sudden, they can't stay away from each other and.
This is the big shift. This is the shift in the relationship. This is what has now created the urgency for them to do something about this.
Silvan (35:10)
Yeah. Can I ask are there any perks of having a long distance relationship for however long you did have it?
Declan (35:19)
Yeah, mean, Nate's really annoying. Sometimes it's nice to get like a couple of days away from him. But that's it.
Silvan (35:23)
Ha ha.
Declan (35:35)
but in a more serious note, like having your space is important and being able to have your own alone time and not being on someone else's schedule all the time. Not sort of having someone fill your schedule for you, which is a big thing in relationships. It's like, we're going to my aunt's so-and-so birthday party next weekend. OK, it's sort of easier to get out of obligations like that. But.
That's all small stuff. Ultimately not being around that person during those moments in that time feels a lot worse than the benefits of sitting alone in your room for a couple of days. The benefit is that you still keep a certain element of your independence and freedom, but it's not really that great of a trade off.
if you're really into someone.
Silvan (36:36)
And during a heat wave like we're experiencing right now, it's much easier to sleep alone in a bed than with a hot water bottle next to you.
Declan (36:44)
start like honestly in past couple days don't touch me don't come near me don't breathe you're breathing my air you're breathing too close to me i need you to move over move up i'll be on the ground i don't care if you're on the ground get on the ground and so be it you're touching me get away from me yeah any couple will tell you that's that's the situation at the moment
Silvan (37:08)
You know, my lobster's too buttery, you know, it's it's a hard life there, Declan. but thinking about this chapter then, I get the sense, and I'd love to hear about what other people think, but I get the sense that Ilya really appreciates words of affirmation because Ilya tells Shane, you know, about they were talking about his freckles, Shane's freckles at one point, and Ilya says, Hollander, they are stunning.
Declan (37:11)
Yes.
Mmm.
Silvan (37:35)
And Shane is really taken aback. And Ilya was like, Well, you say something now. And literally all Shane says is, You're very attractive, Ilya. And I'm like, Good lord. Like, put some effort into it, Shane. you know, and he's like, You know, like, say more. Like that, that's not enough. And and and he does, he tries, and he's like, I love your eyes, and you know, Ilya being the sarcastic little bitch that he is, is like, that's so romantic.
But I really get a sense of of the type of love languages that they're trying to exhibit here.
Declan (38:13)
Yeah, and Elias is definitely words of affirmation. He does constantly tell Shane how beautiful he is and well, he does eventually. But yeah, he's quite complimentary and Shane is very much acts of service. He does things, organizes things. He shows he cares for his actions and what he does for people. So yeah, you have that sort of
This is the irony of love languages is people express their love language towards their partner in a way that they want to be treated without actually fulfilling their partner's language or the way that they view it and the way that they want it. And it's funny, like I have the same experience with my partner. My partner is very much acts of service. Where I'm not, I'm like acts of affection. Like I am like physical affection, things like that.
And it's so funny the way that
you'll do things for each other in the way that you want them done for you. And it's like not about that. It's like you work to their their love language, you work to what they do and what they want and you will end up with much better results. So Ilya's is obviously words of affirmation, it's affection, it's compliments, which makes sense because literally no one has been. You know,
making Ilya feel good about himself in his personal life since his mother died. no one he knows. No one outside of like hockey commentators and the league and the media and all they're telling Ilya how great he is at the sport but no one of substance who cares about Ilya is telling him how good he is and how wanted he is and how loved he is. father didn't care. In fact
There wouldn't matter what Ilya did. If Ilya literally dug up the second coming of Jesus Christ, it wouldn't have been good enough for his father. so, yeah, he's constantly needing validation. He wants to be complimented by someone who he cares about the compliment coming from. And Shane is there to do that. And that is what he needs Shane to do to make him feel loved and wanted and seen.
and treated like he's something precious and important. And Shane, he knows that that's what Ilya wants. He just doesn't have the tact to deliver it in a way that is actually, you know, helping Ilya, you could say.
Silvan (41:06)
Think you're right. And I think that's why in the book Shane very much comes across as acts of service kind of person. Whereas in the TV show, I think Ilya comes across more as a acts of service kind of love because he makes sure Shane has the ginger ale and you know, those kinds of things, and and there's an attention in the TV show that's depicted there where he's he's observing Shane. He's
understanding in real time how to communicate with Shane. So knowing that you just need to ask a direct question. You can't ask long-winded sort of non-directive questions like he does in the in the Tampa Bar scene, for example. You know, get get to the fucking point is how you're gonna get it. Right?
Declan (41:51)
Yeah, yeah. It's a fish for it. It has to
ease him into it. think honestly, Shane is. Iver Judy is no diversity or just sort of the sort of jock culture that they grew up in and very traditional family background. He seems less emotionally.
aware of feelings and emotions and all these things compared to Ilya. But the difference is Ilya is aware of this stuff but he chooses not to act on it or to voice it a lot of times because he's so closed off. But it's not from a lack of understanding it's from a lack of or it's from an overwhelming fear of either being rejected, being viewed in a way that makes him vulnerable.
And so, he understands emotional intelligence, he holds back from expressing it because he's afraid of the vulnerability behind it. Whereas Shane literally is just oblivious and he's just unexperienced. So yeah, it's interesting the way that Rachel has written that. It creates a nice contrast between their characters in the way that
Shane is naive and Ilya is jaded.
Silvan (43:24)
Yeah. Yeah, such a good observation. And here I wanted to get your take on in the TV show we know Shane hasn't been with any other men. However, in the book, there's references made in this chapter that Shane has been with other men. So for example, there's a man from Mexico and there was somebody else in the States in LA, for example.
Declan (43:45)
in.
Silvan (43:53)
And Ilya very jokingly, but maybe not so jokingly, you know, says, you know, tell me about like Mexico top and Hollywood blowjob guy kind of thing. What's your take on what that does to the story in the book for Shane's backstory?
Declan (44:13)
Mm-hmm. I...
Honestly, I think it would have been better left out. If I'm being perfectly honest, I don't think it needed to be added in. Because it takes away from the height of the risk that Shane feels in doing this with Ilya. I get the sense that it will be better that it will be more in character for Shane, not the rest of us at all. The whole idea of this relationship between these two is that
Shane is so enamoured and so in love with Ilya that he cannot help but risk this. Even though it goes against every instinct about how he wants his career to go, how he wants his private life to be kept secret. It goes against the grain of all of that and he does it anyway because he is so in love with this guy. The idea that Shane risked it for a couple of random hookups is incongruent with his character.
not something that this obsessive, super secretive, really nervous version of this character would do. And so I just feel like it would have been better left out.
Silvan (45:29)
That's interesting because this reminds me of a conversation I was having with Jen, who was on the podcast a couple of episodes ago when we talked about AO3 and fanfiction, and there were some comments left in I think it was our YouTube video afterwards, and Jen was interjecting and everything, so was really interesting to to to read. But I think the gist was that it was between Shane and Rose, and how in the book there's no sex scene between Shane and Rose after the club.
Declan (45:38)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (45:59)
In the TV show, there is, and I find it quite hot because I'm very attracted to Roselandry. However, what the impression I got from the commons was that, you know, we don't need that to be depicted in the book. We don't need to see this extra variable being acted out because it takes away from the story. And this is what I'm getting here now from you, in a way, is
We might not need to know this because it takes something away or it doesn't add something of value in that sense. And I'm getting this impression that MM romances or romance readers in general don't really want to hear about the other stuff that people do with other people.
Declan (46:30)
No.
Yeah, unless it serves a purpose for explaining the character or giving you an idea of the character.
Yeah, like for example, I read a book by Scarlett Drake called Limerence where one of the characters is very sexually active with other people throughout the book. And it becomes like a big thing then that he focuses on this other guy. This one guy then steers his attention. He's not like any of the others. He is unique. He like he's the best time in bed. It's never been like this with anybody and that's the image you get. And so it elevates their importance.
Like this is, this is the actual important relationship. None of those other people that I was sleeping with matter at all because this is the guy that has actually captured my attention. This is different. This feels different. and so I suppose you could argue that that's what Rachel Reed was intending that none of those guys mattered much or whatever, but it mattered enough for Shane to risk it. Even in a foreign country, even away from home, it still mattered enough to risk it.
Which, for his character, I find is out of character.
Silvan (48:06)
And I disagree here because I think this makes Shane so much more relatable. It makes him a lot more real. For me, in the TV show, the fact that he hasn't been with anyone, and you know, the first guy he's with, who's Ilya, the first person who he's had sex with, a male Ilya, he falls deeply in love with, falls into this relationship, that does not happen in real life. Like, I am
Declan (48:08)
Absolutely.
Silvan (48:34)
Way past my prime and I'm still fucking single. It does not happen. You do not fall in love with the first boyfriend you have. And so for me, the fact that, you know, in the book, Shane has had these other experiences gives me a little bit more it gives it gives me a little bit more hope that Shane knows the difference now. He knows the difference between a hookup and he knows the difference between somebody who maybe it started off as a hookup but meant something more.
Declan (48:38)
Thank
Silvan (49:01)
For me it's based more on reality, although I know it's a fictional world. And so for me it kind of makes him makes me like him a little bit more. He's not so naive is what I'm getting from this.
Declan (49:14)
I suppose that's the trade-off as well.
Whether or not it's true to life or not, there is a view of someone who has only ever been in love or slept with the one person that is like, my God, your love is like, your love is, it was always meant to be, you're my one true love and there's never been anyone but you and I've saved myself for you. And there's like a classic traditional romance to that dynamic that I think is actually what happens in the show.
is like there's never been anybody else. You're my one true love and that seems to be that that classic rom-com sort of thing, not rom-com but like romance thing. But that's also not true to life like you said and it can actually have negative consequences for society in general to view people in that way like
like virginity and all these things as being like this exceptionally pure thing that makes everything better and more important and more meaningful. reality, it's not true. In fact, you more than likely want some of a bit of experience because dealing with someone that has none is hard work and it takes the enjoyment out of it. yeah, there's arguments to be made for both. I suppose it's that like, how realistic are we getting here? And at what point are we just trying to
tell a very romantic story. Like what elements are we willing to sacrifice to make that happen?
Silvan (51:18)
I hear you. And I think for some people that is their reality, you know. They did wait until they got married or they did fall in love with their first boyfriend, for example. And as a millennial, I grew up watching newlyweds, and Jessica Simpson was put on this pedestal for being a virgin until she got married, and it was this sort of thing that people aspired to in a
Declan (51:33)
Thank
Bye!
Silvan (51:44)
And the stark reality is that it doesn't happen for a lot of people. It doesn't happen for most people. those of those people it did happen to, that's, you know, that's their reality, and that's still very real
And you know, to elevate it from the romance to the smut, whichever way you want to think about it, you know.
They have this conversation about I think of you when I'm in bed masturbating. And I thought that's real. Like I was that felt really sweet in a smutty way.
Declan (52:08)
Yeah.
Yeah, it is like a very sweet way of saying that I'm thinking about you all the time. I mean all the time. mean like, it's actually quite sweet. yeah, imagine being enough to like get someone off on their own just by the thought of you. What a big compliment. What a lovely compliment. Yeah.
Silvan (52:35)
Right Right
Especially when you're that young and hot.
Declan (52:39)
Yeah, exactly. It's like, I don't need to imagine like some sort of swimwear model or whatever, or some sort of, you know, fragrance ad model where it's women trunks and climbing out of like a lake with dropping water all over them. can just think of you instead. You're just as good as all of that. Like, yeah, that's a big compliment.
Silvan (53:01)
Yes, Theo James will always be that person. The fragrance ad he did last year, the year before, after the White Lotus, I think it was a Versace one or something like that, but good lord, those little tight speedos, the white ones. Good for him. and the millions that he inspired. So but I digress. Cause there is this sweetness about it, you're right. Because, you know, Ilya says that
There's nothing sexier than Shane Hollander's face. And then he says as he came, but you know, I was trying to make it nice.
Declan (53:37)
That is very sweet because it's not even about his body. It's about the exercise or anything like that. It's just the face. It's just your face. It just does something for me. That's the incredibly sweet thing to hear because it doesn't matter how we end up in the end, what size we get to, what size we don't, what age we get to, what age we don't. It's that sort of sweet, like it's you, it's you yourself who
who fulfills me and that I'm actually attracted to so yeah that's sweet.
Silvan (54:13)
Yeah, because at the end of the chapter here we get this it's not even a realization, it's a reconfirmation for Ilya. And he says, like he murmurs in Russian, I'm so fucking in love, and it's horrible. And, you know, it says Ilya's heart fucking stopped. And he was never supposed to have fallen in love with Shane. So we get this real and I see why that why Rachel Reed is doing this at the end of this chapter, because of what's going to happen in the next chapter.
Because it's it's gonna flip us literally right over.
Declan (54:48)
Yeah, yeah, because obviously next chapter is to do with Shane's incident on the ice. And all these big ideas, right? This is the thing. When you care about someone and you're in love with someone, you cannot just switch it off like that. It doesn't happen. And so this typically happens in fiction and offers use it as a really clever way of like
Silvan (54:57)
Yeah.
Declan (55:17)
shaking their characters to be like wake up wake up you you're deluding yourself if you think you can be without this guy at this point and that's sort of what this is setting up it's setting up the idea that Iliya can be like I need to distance myself this is this is getting too intense I'm scared of what will happen if I let this continue on and then Rachel Reed's going well what happens if I
Instead of let you let it go, what if I just rip it away from you? How would that feel instead? And suddenly that feeling is going to be way more devastating than him trying to remove himself from that situation and brings into stark contrast the important things within their relationship, which is to be together. They just want to be together and all the other stuff in the end, when faced with crisis and disaster.
being together is most important thing.
Silvan (56:19)
You're right. I never really thought about it that way. That's such an interesting take on it. Because yes, they've got each other, but they it's going to get ripped apart and away from each other in the next chapter. And to bring Jessica Simpson back into this conversation, as I know a lot of millennials will appreciate, you know, when nine eleven happened, Jessica Simpson and Nicolache had, you know, broken up before then. This is before they got married. And when nine eleven happened, it brought them back together and that's when they got married. So
Declan (56:34)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (56:49)
You know, and that's when we got newlyweds. So, all in all, worked out for the best. Actually didn't really work out for the best for Jessica. I think they divorced soon after. But hey, it worked at the time.
Declan (57:02)
Well, okay. Thank you for this information. My pop culture history.
Silvan (57:07)
Look, us elder millennials have to give the information and the history, otherwise it would be lost.
Declan (57:13)
Yeah, this is clearly stuff that needs to be recorded down for the scriptures, for the future religion that will come from all pop culture Hollywood celebrities.
Well, that is all the time that we have today. We intended to get through more than this. It just never seems to happen. We really do go full blown English literature teacher whenever it comes to this book and we just keep on finding more more stuff to talk about, more and more depth. So if you're enjoying this, then please continue listening, like, share it, comment.
Let us know what you think. If you had any thoughts about anything we discussed, make sure to mention them. Also, we do have a book club on Fable. It's called the Long Game Podcast Book Club. If you are interested in joining us there, that'd be absolutely great. We have different lobbies and rooms where we discuss things from the podcast. We discuss heated rivalry and the other books, but also we read different MN romance books.
At the minute we are making our way through Oleander by Scarlett Drake, which is a beautiful retelling of The Great Expectations by Charles Dickens, but done through the lens of an MN romance, contemporary sort of drama. Fantastic. We were having great discussions there and yeah, it's absolutely brilliant. If that is something that you're interested in, then please join us. It's fantastic. You'll have lots of fun. But on top of that as well,
Don't be afraid to follow us on TikTok, Instagram. Mine is Declan McEllion, 17 on TikTok. And then we have Sylvan, who is Sylvan on TikTok. And follow us, like us, share our content if you wish. And we'll see you for the next time.