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Discover new WordPress opportunities through stories told using Gravity Forms. WordPress developers and agency owners rely on Gravity Forms to solve complex problems for their clients. Breakdown explores their stories to extract the most useful lessons for our listeners.
Join podcast host Matt Medeiros with special guest appearances from the team behind Gravity Forms to stay up to date on the next opportunity for Gravity Forms + WordPress. Whether it's a new Gravity Forms add-on or a new way to use our e-commerce features, Breakdown is the WordPress podcast you want to be subscribed to.
[00:00:00] 5, 4, 3, 2.
Matt: Welcome back to The Breakdown Podcast, returning guest, Alex Danford. Alex, welcome back. Hey, Matt. Great to see you. Thanks for having me. If I was a better podcaster, I would've had the show notes from the last episode. I think we were just talking about what you were up to with Siren Affiliates and how you use Gravity Forms and some of your, um, consulting work.
Yeah. Um, for folks that don't know, siren affiliates.com, we're gonna talk mostly about that. Today because you're now incorporating Gravity forms into that product, which is amazing to hear. Yeah. Um, but as we sort of wrap up the year, uh, how are you balancing consulting work and product work? Are we doing more product than consulting?
More consulting than product. What's it look like for you?
Alex: [00:01:00] Yeah. So for the past, I'd say six to eight months of this year, um, I've really been honing in on making the business more siren, my, my business, more siren centric is what I've been saying. So, uh, all of my decisions are being driven by, you know, how is my business going to grow so that it's more product focused.
Um, so a lot of that obviously is focusing on growing, pro growing siren itself, and growing, you know, growing my customer base and all of those. Things. Uh, but in addition to that, I'm also still doing consulting work and things like that, but I've been trying to leverage siren as much as I can, uh, to one, find those potential clients that I'm working with.
And then also, of course, uh, extending siren and creating systems, uh, that leverage that. Leveraged siren for my clients.
Matt: Now, I know you were also working, well, you had multiple products, you've done multiple products, you have multiple products. Uh, is, is Siren still the leading one that you're, that most of the attention goes to?
Alex: Yeah, everything ends up revolving around it in some way, shape, or form. So whether it's extending it or enhancing it or, um, whatever I'm doing these days, uh, it's [00:02:00] always in service of, uh. Either leveraging siren as a use case or, uh, expanding on it and building it, uh, in, in new and unique ways.
Matt: Yeah, and I, I have to ask, I'm sure maybe we'll get into it, but I have to ask, what's the impact of AI on your work?
We, you and I probably talked about it, uh, you know, earlier this year, uh, when you're on, but I'm curious, has it started to impact. Sort of like the customer facing stuff, like customers going, oh, hey, why, why don't you just add this? I mean, you have ai, just add this to the product. Or do I really need this product 'cause maybe I can build it myself.
What's your vibe? No pun intended on AI right now. Yeah.
Alex: Um, I think AI is an excellent tool and I think that, um. I haven't ran into situations where I've had customers say that they could just simply build, uh, what I'm doing instead. Now that doesn't mean they're not right, of course that doesn't mean they're not.
But, um, and I would even say if you've got a super dead simple affiliate program and you don't really [00:03:00] care about long-term maintenance or anything like that, which to be honest, everybody does. But, uh, you probably could vibe, code something, you know, but the, the problem always comes down to, uh, for me it's always the maintenance.
It's maintaining it long term, making sure that it continues to function, um, and, and things along those lines. And also just the peace of mind knowing that somebody's keeping an eye on it. Uh, but in terms of my own personal productivity, it's had a very, very good impact. Uh, I've been able to, uh, effectively, I've really just started using, really in the last, I'd say, month I've really started to leverage, uh.
Uh, AI directly in my IDE, uh, my code editor and, and all that stuff, and truly, you know, starting to leverage that. Um, and fortunately, siren's built in a really good way, so it's documented and, and set up. So the, the, I had to do the foundation myself, but now AI is allowing me to be able to do extensions and, and do things like that a lot better.
Something I'm really looking forward to is, um, as I'm getting better with these things, I'm starting to, uh, create better documentation for Siren in my own all [00:04:00] of my tools. And, uh, what's really powerful about that is that means that other people, if they need to extend Siren or leverage Siren, uh, they would be able to do so as well.
But I think that, um, whenever I think of Siren, I think of it a lot in a lot of ways as, as a platform, as a platform on top of a platform on the same way that you would look at, you know, WooCommerce or some kind of foundational tool. It's a foundational tool for partnerships and, and things like that. So I don't so much think about AI as being something that's gonna.
Place siren as much as it being a fulcrum to help people extend siren and create partnerships in, in more powerful ways.
Matt: One of the interesting things that came out of, uh. Well, I mean, we've been, if you've been following WordPress Deeply and, and not just the state of, the word that came, that just passed is the abilities API, um, that's, you know, coming into, uh, WordPress core and it's gonna unlock a lot of, like this, uh, what I'll call like the glue to ai, right?
Yep. Theoretically, from a 50,000 foot view, one might be able to connect their chat, [00:05:00] GPT or Claw account up to their, you know. Mom and pop WordPress website and say, do some things for me. Hey, ai, go in and clean up my blog posts or install this plugin. I'm wondering who's gonna be holding the ball for support When customers are like, Hey, I asked Chad CPT to talk to Siren and then grab all my Gravity forms entries and then make a graph for me on this blog post page who like, and it doesn't work.
That, then what? Like who, who has to solve for that? Yeah, it's a scary, you know, it's a scary proposition. It's an exciting proposition, but it's also like, where's the support land in something like that. Yeah.
Alex: Um, there's a part of me that wonders, uh, it just sounds like one of those things where somebody would just throw more AI at it, so, so, you know, oh, okay, so I'll have your robot talk to my robot and, you know, we'll figure it out.
I don't, I don't know if it'll, I don't know how, how far out we are from that. Um, I'm definitely watching the Abilities API, uh, in general's. It's still a little bit early for me to really go all in on it, but I'm, I'm very [00:06:00] much intrigued, obviously. 'cause siren's, superpower is, its integrations, so of course I'm, I'm watching it closely and I think that there's a lot of, um, definitely a lot of potential, especially in terms of working with it, uh, with ai.
Um, I could see. Oh my gosh, I can't even, I don't even know where to begin. Like just starting with the simplest things of I want describing the program that you want and it says, oh, here's the different incentive programs that you would need to put together in siren. And it would just do it. You know, that's the simplest term.
But I mean, imagine if you're able to change stuff together and say, I. I'm creating this incentive program, here's how I wanna do it. And it goes, it designs it, and then it looks at, you know, your, your customers in the past for WooCommerce. It grabs their email address, it constructs a message to send them and says, Hey, would you like to join our partnership program?
And it just a hundred percent does that, you know what I mean? And if they say yes or whatever, it automatically adds them to the system. You know, it, it gets 'em signed up, it sends them their incentive program, URL. There's a lot that could be done with that in the future. And I'm, I'm definitely excited about it.
Uh, but I'm, I'm [00:07:00] definitely. Just kind of, I'm watching, I'm gonna see where it goes and see how the adoption, uh, goes. And also I just kind of wanna experiment with it. I have to understand how it works myself before I can, you know, confidently give it to my customers and say, here
Matt: you go. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to me, again, not to get too deep in the weeds of this stuff, but I've been building a plug in myself and I started thinking like, oh, wouldn't it be cool to, you know, get on the forefront of this stuff and, and start leveraging the abilities API.
But then I was like, I, I kind of feel like you're just o it's like almost like opening the door. To, it's an opening the door to the unknown for that end user, and, and that's the part where I'm kind of like wrestling in my head. No official abilities, API from Gravity Forms just yet. Yeah, that, that's
Alex: for sure.
Yeah. I'm kind of unapologetically hiding behind some of the bigger players for sure. Yeah. I'm just gonna let you, let, let everybody else who's got the resources, figure it out, figure out the kinks and see how it goes, and then put something together basically based on that.
Matt: Siren affiliates.com. The integrations you said are key, uh, to the success of Siren.
You have WooCommerce, easy Digital [00:08:00] Downloads, north Commerce, commerce Lifter, LMS, and now Gravity Forms.
Alex: Yep.
Matt: Before we hit record, you mentioned that this is not just an, like an affiliate plugin. This is something where you can incentivize folks to work with you. Can you unpack that a little bit more and how you differentiate from your typical affiliates program to, uh, an incentivized program?
Alex: Sure. So, um, pretty much every business out there has some kind of idea of what, what I call a collaborator, right? This could be a venture partner, this could be a formal partnership. This could be an affiliate, it could be a vendor. Uh, there's all kinds of these different words that we use for people who collaborate with us, who work with us in some way to help our business grow.
So siren's entire goal is to build what we, what I call an incentive program builder. It's an incentive program builder, and it lets you build any kind of incentive program that is that. Is designed to be used with those people. Um, so I'll give you a more abstract example. So let's take a look at, say, uh, Uber or Lyft, right?
They have an incentive [00:09:00] program, right? The incentive program is if you drive and you do this delivery, I will pay you this much money, right? It's a fixed amount of money. You're paid for performance. So the drivers in that context are the collaborators, and of course Uber is the business itself. So I'm looking at things like that, not, not just of, obviously you could do affiliate programs and you can do sales programs and things like that, but it, it's, it's more than that.
Anytime you ever have a partnership or any kind of connection, uh, where you need to track, uh, performance from somebody and pay them some amount of money based on that performance. Siren is the, is the go-to for that. And it isn't even just monetary, right? It could even be, um, if you took a step back and said, maybe I have a refer a friend program, right?
And instead of paying people with money, I'm paying them with, you know, points or some kind of internal currency that you have in your system that you can then turn around and use for discounts. Like I think about a lot of grocery stores where they have those reward systems and stuff like that. So it can, it can leverage kind of, uh, things along those lines as well.
Matt: Does it always have to be. And this is is gonna unpack [00:10:00] to another question, but does it always have to be a monetary transaction that Siren sees on the website? Does it always have to be fixed to like a transaction that happens on the website? What, and, and let me frame it a little bit better so that the listener, and, and maybe you can get it a little bit more, I'm thinking, wow, wouldn't this be great to have an incentive program for a WordPress agency?
Mm-hmm. But WordPress agency, you know, if I'm charging, uh, five to $10,000. Maybe I'm not transacted, transacting that through gravity forms. Right? Right. Everything could, could I still use Siren at that capacity to track somebody's, um, points if I wanted to have somebody refer business to me? Yeah. You
Alex: actually touched on a really interesting, uh, thing that makes against Siren unique here is, uh, we, it has a concept called distributors.
And basically what those do is it allows you to, um, instead of paying people, associating things directly with transactions you can associate. Actions that happened over time and pay based on that. So, um, I'll give you an example. Um, so let's [00:11:00] say you have a, a salesperson, maybe you have a team of salespeople and you want those salespeople to direct traffic to, uh, gravity forms or their, their form on gravity forms for leads, right?
And you wanna pay them. The tricky part about paying for leads is if you just shovel a whole bunch of garbage there, um, you're paying for garbage. You know, anybody who's ever had an, who's ever done, uh, ads on Facebook or something like that with improper targeting knows you're basically just lighting your money on fire.
But if you have good quality leads, it can be a real great, it can be a real good boon. So, um. What you can do is you can say, I want to pay these, these people to get this, to get leads to fill out this form, right? And what I'm gonna do is instead of paying them every time they get a lead, I'm going to create a, uh, revenue share where once a month I pay out a percentage of the total amount of revenue that the business made for the month.
And the amount of money I pay to each salesperson is directly [00:12:00] proportionate to how many leads they brought in that past month. So that's just kind of one example, so you can disconnect that transaction from, from the actual act itself. Um, another, another example is, uh, another revenue share that I've seen a lot of people do with in the LMS space, the learning management space is, um, they'll have multiple course creators.
Or content creators, and they'll pay a revenue, share a share of the memberships from the past month based on, uh, which course creators got the most engagement from The people who, who, which cust, which course creators had the most customers, uh, complete their course, complete their lessons and, and things like that.
So Siren can track those actions over time and then pay a distribution based on, uh, the number, the,
Matt: their score. The wheels are turning in my head and I'm gonna paint a picture. I wanna paint a couple pictures. Sure. Uh, number one. Pretend you know somebody that has a WordPress podcast. I don't know who this person is.
Okay. But let's just pretend they do. [00:13:00] Okay. But they have and they have a free newsletter. Could there be a thing with Siren? 'cause I use Gravity Forms. Uh, did I say me? I meant that person. That person. Yeah. Yeah. That person uses Gravity Forms to get them on a newsletter. Could you have like this fun point system where like the most people that refer people to sign up for this newsletter and then like.
I don't know. We get them a a, a buy them lunch or something like that. Like could, could we score them and and track that kind of thing? Or does the payout always have to be cash on the other side?
Alex: Uh, no, you can actually specify any kind of currency you want in the system. Um, it comes with just all the normal currencies, um, but out of the box it supports multicurrency.
So whenever, if you had multiple programs, 'cause you could run multiple programs in sirens. So, uh, it has to support multiple currencies too. So if you wanted to create your own custom currency, that's, you know, uh, podcaster points or, or whatever you wanna call 'em, right? And you want to make that. Maybe it attributes directly to some kind of coupon discounts on your site or something like that, [00:14:00] or, or whatever, right.
There's, there's so many different ways you could take that. Uh, yeah, you can absolutely do that. And then it, it would track, you know, here's how much money you owe this person in dollars here much how, how much you owe them in, you know, these points that you've created in your system. Uh, yeah, absolutely.
Matt: Yeah, that's, that's awesome. To just backtrack to that, uh, agency example, I think what I'm hearing is that let's say you have a team of, of folks that are helping you sell, uh, or you wanna build your own, sort of like referral system program with like your local network of business owners. Mm-hmm. Is the plumbing like to have a landing page.
Let's talk about, let's use gravity forms in this context. Have a landing page for each individual representative and say, if you want to earn these. Points or get some commission from me, send them to the landing page that we have, and that gravity form is there and that's what Siren is tracking. Is that the foundation of like, how that would be set up?
So there's a couple different ways that Siren can
Alex: actually track who to credit. Um, the first one is, is an affiliate link, right? So a referral code, and that's in the end of the [00:15:00] URL. Uh, the second one is, uh, what you were just saying. You can actually create a form and associate it with a specific. Uh, collaborator, a specific person.
So, uh, what's really cool about that is then if you have like a very, a very important, you know, a sales team or something like that, you can create a landing page for each of them individually and give them their own form and give, and, you know, and set it up. And then if that form gets filled out, we, you know, beyond any shadow of doubt who it was.
So, what's interesting though is you can actually take that a step further. And, uh, with gravity forms is e-commerce capabilities. You can actually associate the individual product fields in gravity forms with the collaborator so that if that product is sold, they get credit. Uh, this kind of flips the script.
So we've been talking about sales and intake, uh, but what if you had. Uh, a whole bunch of vendors that you wanted to keep track of how much you owe them, or something like that. Like maybe you're, uh, you, you are creating a booking form for a, uh, wedding venue, right? And you have upsells on your gravity form or something like [00:16:00] that.
You know, a, a photography, photography, videography, all these other. Different things, uh, catering, stuff like that, and you want to build it in as a, as a product, but you know, you outsource that to a photographer or something like that. You could set it up to where that those different fields and gravity forms are associated with a collaborator.
In this case, that would be the photographer or those other vendors. And once that form gets filled out, siren will automatically say, oh, hey, you owe this much money to this person because they, they are taking this, and then it'll track all of that for you. Mm-hmm. So there's, on the flip side, there's, there's this whole other way of tracking, um, that doesn't just involve, you know, like you were saying with the, the landing page and, uh, the affiliate links and, and things like that.
Matt: Yeah, I was just looking at the, the features page over on siren affiliates.com for Gravity forms, and I see, I mean, there's tons of things that it can do with gravity forms. I like some of the stuff you were just talking about, like route applicants into different, uh, programs automatically, like, you know, the more and more.
Obviously it's why we have you on the podcast to learn more about this stuff. [00:17:00] Uh, but the more and more like I hear you talking about, I'm reading this stuff, I'm like, wow, this thing goes well beyond, just like, give me a link that says REF equals Yeah. You know, and here it is and I get 10% whatever, like this thing is doing some serious stuff.
And I, and I love the fact that you're not just focused on. What's my commission, what's my affiliate payout? Like this, this can build richer thing, you know, richer things. Do you have any nonprofit examples in your, in your work so far with this? It might be too early on, but a lot of folks use gravity forms for donations and nonprofits and nonprofit sponsorships.
Have you, have you run into that at all yet in your case studies?
Alex: I haven't ran into a case study for it unfortunately. I'd love to. I think that there's a lot of opportunities there, you know, especially because the, the. You know, money is usually pretty tight in those contexts, so this is a great opportunity for that.
I just think about good old fashioned fundraisers, like, like, you know, the kids do with with candy bars and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. You there, there's rev share opportunities there where you don't have to pay for the stuff upfront, you know, you're paying based on how much you need. [00:18:00] There's so many different ways that I think Siren could really help with that.
I just haven't had an opportunity to, uh, go deep with anybody on that.
Matt: The website looks a little bit different than when we chatted a while ago. Yeah. Uh, what, what, what, what went down? It looks great. I mean, it looks great. I, I didn't mind it be before either. I'm just saying like, it looks like you're leveling it up a bit.
Alex: Yeah. Um, so I got a, uh, I went to Word Camp after building that initial version of the site and I got some feedback on it.
And, um, just generally, I just didn't love what I had so far. It was just kinda my first iteration. I had to get something out the door, you know, uh, it was just me and, uh. I realized I needed help. So I hired a designer and they were just amazing and they worked with me and they built this awesome s shaped logo that has two fishing hooks that look like they're shaking [00:19:00] hands.
And, and I just, I, I loved the branding and it just kind of inspired me a lot. I looked at it, I was like, man, I can really build a cool site with this. And, uh, you know, I installed, uh. I in, I actually used, uh, Ollie Pro for this site and, um, had something put together, uh, you know, a couple weeks later. And I've been, ever since then, I've just been kind of incrementally improving it.
But it's definitely, probably my favorite web design I've ever done. I really had a lot of
Matt: fun with it. Now you did all this design yourself. You just took the logo from the designer and built on top of that or your designer?
Alex: Yeah, they gave me a design brief. Um, cool. So it was probably about, I'd say 40% of it.
And then I, it, but it was enough for me to kind of take it from there. And I got to, I just, you know, I started playing with gradients and just imagined that the entire website's underwater. And with that, you know, with that idea in mind, it just kind of. Fell together.
Matt: Yeah. You could have leaned in a whole different, uh, [00:20:00] direction with the underwater, uh, metaphor with, you know, folks drowning in their work.
Right. But I like the more tasteful approach that you, you went with instead of the first car salesman thing that pops into my head, uh, which is just, you know, uh, muscle memory. Um, it's relatable. Yeah. You, you word camp. I, I wanna talk about that. I think we talked about this the last time, but I just wanna see where your, where your, uh, mindset's at.
Uh, I feel like affiliates and incentive programs not a thing that. You get a lot of, um, warm hugs at, uh, at a Word camp. Right? Right. I think a lot of people in our space, uh, are very, a little bit more insular. They're, they're very, you know, maybe against marketing and not against, but maybe a little bit afraid to like, push in that direction.
Um, whereas you can go to, there's probably a gazillion like, affiliate conferences that you can go to. Yeah. Um, what's that like on your radar? I, I can imagine it's a lot more expensive than going to Word camps.
Alex: Yeah. It's, [00:21:00] it's. Definitely more expensive than WordCamp it's Act, but the ones that I've seen haven't been quite as bad as I thought.
Um, but I, I've, I haven't really hit the, uh, affiliate space too terribly hard outside of WordPress, outside of these conversations, just because I am trying. Because I have that same ick that everybody that you're talking about, that you're seeing and you're experiencing, you know, I've been in the WordPress space for a long time as well, and, and I, I have that same, you know, I don't know.
It's just, it's so inauthentic and I'm very big on authenticity. So, um. But what I do see in the WordPress space a lot, and I've experienced myself and I, I'm sure you have too, uh, we are a tight knit community. We are a very network focused community where we we're big on networking, connecting, and things along those lines.
So my inspiration for a lot of this plugin has revolved around my own experience in the WordPress space, not so much the affiliate space. So, you know, for me, I think about. Siren less as, [00:22:00] you know, just being an affiliate plugin where it's all about things like, you know, those, the, the bigger plugins where it's like they're not so much focused on the different types of programs or partnerships you can create.
They're more focused on finding the affiliate, you know what I mean? And, and finding these, these people who are, uh, by profession, selling stuff for a living. And that's, that's all they do. And that's just not, I don't feel like that's. WordPress in a lot of ways. Um, I'm obviously, you know, there's definitely people out there who make good living on it, but you know, for me it's more about authentic connections.
So that's something I talk about a lot on the website and, and a lot to people in general is, you know, 10, 10 really good affiliates is all you need. Every affiliate program, every person I talk to who's running a good size affiliate program, it's the same story. It's, I have 1200 affiliates on my site, I have 800.
And then the next question I ask 'em is, okay, how many of 'em are. Selling anything and they'll say 10, 12. Yeah. You know, so my, my challenge to that is why go [00:23:00] find 1200 bad affiliates when you can just go find the right 10
Matt: mm. So let me put you on the hot seat a little bit. Okay. Affiliate, the affiliate program for Siren.
If I were you. I'd have that right on the top of the page. Yeah, right. You, yours is in the footer. It's on the affiliates. Right. I mean, that's, that's where I found it. Is that the, the main false action. How, how, how do you want people to, to avoid the 1200? Well, I guess if you're listening to this, you can go sign up to become an affiliate, right?
Like if you, like, if you, if you like what Alex is talking about and you like the product, it's a great place to refer it. So how do you shape how people maybe present the. The Siren affiliates, because I can imagine, I see both sides of that coin. Like I don't do any affiliate stuff. Right. Uh, only because it's just, it's just like a, it's like a performance thing, and it's like the traditional, like 30% affiliate thing.
Like, oh, sell this product, make a bunch of content, push to it. I like this partnership thing that you're [00:24:00] talking about. Mm-hmm. How can I earn, how can I earn more for the hard work that I do, not just your 30% off the top. Yep. Uh, so how do you shape that with siren? Because I think that's a lot of it.
People just sign up hoping to make 30%, then they never do it. And then that product never reaches out to the person to say, here's how you can present us better. Like, here's how you can actually earn more money. Yep. And I think that that's where I, I, I struggle.
Alex: So, um, honestly, uh, the Gravity Forms integration is kind of a part of that equation for me.
Mm-hmm. Um, not to, I guess I should jump to the philosophy before I jump to the solution, but, uh, for me, I, I look at it as, like I said, if I, I focus on 10 to 12 grade affiliates, right. So, um. And I also think of my affiliate program as a product in the same way I look as a product and, and just like your product, you have a funnel, you have a journey for these people, right?
So a public facing program does make sense because it allows you to find people, it allows you to potentially bet them, and you can figure out which ones are the good one. You know the ones that are. Ready to [00:25:00] run with you in a really good fit for your program and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. Um, so it gives you an opportunity to still have that conversation with people, right?
You wanna make sure that people can still approach you about it and you want them to know that you have something and you wanna work with them. And an affiliate page is a great way to do that. Um, but one of the things that comes to mind for me that you said there that jumps out is, like I said, it's a product.
So there's still marketing, there's still sales, there's still touch points and connections and things like that, right? There's, there's some, there's stuff that you have to do on your end of this deal to, as the product owner to help them succeed. Um, so one of the biggest reasons why. I'm personally excited about the Gravity Forms integration is 'cause I'm a Gravity Forms user and I really, what I've been doing is every time I get an affiliate, I'm manually adding them into my CRM and I'm adding all their data.
And I got tired of doing it and I was like, well, I've been telling Matt for a while that I'm gonna do a Gravity Forms integration because. It integrates with my CRM. It integrates with all these tools and as long as [00:26:00] I set siren up so that it can pass that information into Gravity forms, I've now unlocked the ability to add all of my affiliates into my CRM complete with their affiliate link and all that other information.
Yeah. Um, you know, and all the other. Powerful things that gravity forms can integrate with. So that allowed me to, now I can automate that. So if somebody signs up with the form, I approve them, they automatically get added into my mailing list, their affiliate link is there, it can automatically send the email and, and allow me to kind of have those touch points that you're talking about.
Matt: Wheels are turning again. Uh, so you have, uh, we'll extend the, the interview just a little bit longer. You have integration with lifter LMS. Mm-hmm. Is it feasible to say that somebody takes a course? Like you have an affiliate, uh, education program powered by Lifter LMS. Yep. They take the course, they pass the course, maybe their percentage goes up a little bit like what they earn, like May does that, is that a thing in Siren Land where if they pass a, yeah, a pass a course, they get [00:27:00] more?
No, see, this is, this is good. Yeah. Absolutely a thing. Yeah. That's good. I like that. So, I mean, so again, just for the listener to frame of reference, here is the reasons. That Alex just said about having, you know, affiliate sites with 1200 people on it. Nobody's selling anything. No one's doing anything except for maybe 10.
My sort of, um, distaste for just doing affiliate stuff. For the sake of doing affiliate stuff, if you can build an enriched program, use something like Lifter, right? LMS. Fantastic. LMS. We use it at Gravity Forms. I use it, uh, personally. Mm-hmm. To have, build these courses, these modules, to level up your affiliates and have them earn more money.
And only the ones that are actually taking the time to take a course and learn this stuff are gonna be the ones that earn the most, as it should be.
Alex: Yeah. Um, fantastic. Yeah, there's, yeah, it's, it's awesome. I, I love it and been having a lot of fun just thinking about it, but.
Matt: Siren affiliates.com. You can get yours now.
I won't [00:28:00] mention the price. It is discounted right now. Don't know how long that's gonna last. Yeah, but Siren affiliates.com, check it out. It's worth, uh, every penny, especially if you're an agency owner and you're looking to get more referrals. I remember running my local agency, everything's word of mouth at that level.
You're going to BNI meetups, you're going to all of these, um, uh, what do you call it? The Chamber of Commerce. Chamber of Commerce, yeah. Now there's like startup incubators everywhere across the country. You can start networking with these people, building out, uh, referral programs and incentive programs with them.
Um, and you'll start earning more money as an agency owner and then sky's the limit. If you're a product owner, check it out. Siren Affiliates. Com, siren affiliates.com. Alex, thanks for hanging out today. Hey, thanks Pat.
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