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Becoming sustainably human at work isn't a small undertaking. It often means letting go of systems and behaviors that don't serve us individually or collectively.
So what do we do? As individuals, as groups of folks, as leaders? How do we carve out space for our humanity while making sure we're not the only ones? How do we thrive in the workplace while not imagining we must be superhuman? How do we cultivate spaces that are generative and healing, creative and extraordinary?
I don't have the answers to those questions. And, to be fair, I don't believe one human can EVER have all the answers to those questions. I'm working through those questions every day.
This podcast curates for you a set of folks with an opinion worth listening to and sharing. So join me as I ask people I admire to share their wisdom with you in accessible doses.
Join me on my quest to become sustainably human at work.
Welcome to What's Leadership?
I'm Liz Wiltsie.
The more I learn about leadership,
the more I'm convinced there's
not a one size fits all solution.
So I am on my own learning journey
and I invite you to join me.
EbonyJanice reminds me that being
open about my journey is important.
Each episode features someone I admire
with actionable insight to share.
So please join me as I
ask what's leadership?
I am thrilled to welcome
Desiree Adaway today.
I've been a fan of her work for years,
and I know the rest of you will be to.
Desiree works with conscious and caring
leaders to give them the skills to
cultivate rich, rewarding and meaningful
relationships and conversations
across race, class, and gender.
So that organizational culture can change.
As a consultant.
advisor, strategist, and senior
trainer, she works with organizations
to do two things: use equity and
inclusion to their advantage and
leverage leadership across levels.
Welcome Desiree.
Thanks for having me.
So let's get to it.
What do you think is the number
one challenge for leaders?
I think it's accountability.
I think leaders want to hold
themselves accountable and they can't.
And so our it's clients,
it's our customers, who
gets to hold us accountable.
It's our employees.
But I think even more so than that,
I think leaders have a very skewed
understanding of what accountability is.
A lot of folks see accountability as
something that's punitive and I see
it as, a deep love and kinship, right?
So I only hold folks accountable
that I care about that I
want to be in community with.
And so when we're called out for not
showing up or following through, when
we're called out, because our impact
was not what we had hoped it would be.
I take that as a sign of folks
that really care about me and
care about me as a leader and
developing my leadership skills.
And so I just think leaders
need to spend a bit more time
focused around accountability.
And what does that mean?
And how can we think of it as not
something that's punitive, but you
use that as ways that we can learn
and wrestle with really big, important
issues publicly and model ways for other
people to wrestle with those issues.
Yeah, indeed.
So what is your number one tip for leaders
getting in a space that they can do that?
I think there's two things.
I think we have to look at, forgiveness
and reconciliation, and accountability
and healing as core leadership components.
So as we think about what leaders
are, you know, for some people
that's like, you know, being able
to speak publicly, that may mean
being kind of brave and courageous.
I think it also means that, we understand
how do we help in the healing of folks?
how do we talk about forgiveness?
How do we model forgiveness?
How do we model reconciliation?
I think if some of those were really
integral leadership skills, we wouldn't
have as many toxic organizations
and institutions like we have.
Indeed, absolutely.
For sure.
so what has been a book or talk
presentation concept that has
really been impactful for you?
There've been a lot I've doing a lot
of studying of the prison abolitionists
movement actually, which is a great
movement around us imagining what
does it mean, to not have prisons,
which means that how, how, how do we
talk about healing and forgiving and
what does that look like happening
on a community and collective level?
But a book that has been really
amazing for me is a book called
Feminist Accountability: Disrupting
Violence and Transforming Power.
It's by Dr.
Ann Russo.
I think she's a doctor.
Ann Russo, she teaches at DePaul
university in Chicago, and has lots of
great, there's a lot of great work around
what does accountability look like?
And I just, that feminist accountability
book is it's become my new Bible.
I have added it to my
reading list immediately.
When you're talking about prison
abolition, do you have a specific,
do you have something that you like
to point to when you talk about it?
Yeah.
I, I follow, some folks on Twitter,
which if you just kind of, search on
Twitter for it, but there's a activists
whose last name is Kaba, Mariame Kaba.
I, I do a lot of her readings.
she has this great book called
Fumbling Towards Repair, which
is really around like, how do we,
how do we repair relationships
when we've hurt and harmed folks?
And what does that look like?
And she's been integral
in doing a lot on that.
A lot of that work.
Yeah.
I do work with a whole bunch of
abolitionist things here in Los Angeles.
and it's really changed the way I think
about both accountability and forgiveness.
Like you talk about it.
So, I'm really appreciative
that you brought that, but you
brought that to this conversation
And LA you know what, the largest
prison system in the world.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So yeah.
You know, it's, it's, I think the,
when we think about the kind of
political vision of, of eliminating
imprisonment, for me, what that
ultimately has us having to think about
is, how do we care for one another?
When we've been harmed and how
do we recover from that together?
And how do we just not lock people away?
Again, there are no easy answers
in any of this work, right?
Like, so there's no real easy answers
around that, around these big questions,
but I think that there's some.
For me, they're really big.
It brings up big themes for me around how
do I want to be in community with people?
Build models that represent how
we want to live in the future.
And how we want to be treated
as humans in this future.
Sure.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
So what should I have
asked you that I didn't?
Ask that question to my
clients all the time.
I, yeah, I don't, I don't think
there's anything, honestly.
I would just say, to your folks
who are listening, you know,
leadership is a constant destination.
It's a constant journey.
We're all, you know, it's not like
you arrive and you're a leader.
Those skills have to constantly evolve for
the context and the times that we live in.
It's a perfect way to end.
Thank you so much for being here.
Thank you for having me.
Appreciate it.
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