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CJ & The Duke discuss all the practices they'd retain, and all the ways they'd work differently if they started their ServiceNow careers over.
There's sure to be lessons in here for people of all ServiceNow skill levels.
Authentic, Authoritative, Unapologetic ServiceNow commentary by Cory "CJ" Wesley and Robert "The Duke" Fedoruk
[00:00:00] CJ: Guys a little bit about us., I
[00:00:01] Duke: started our Oscar Philadelphia office about two years ago. , I was working at a pretty large service now recruitment firm before that. And, I wasn't happy with not only the way candidates were being treated the way clients were being treated really just the experience candidates were having.
, and even my own experience as an employee at that company. , so when the pandemic hit, , salaries got caught, so I started looking around and that's what I found Oscar, and I really think I found a home here. , so that's when I started the Philadelphia team. , I'm sure you guys have met a lot of the people here.
, they're, you know, amazing. , I love our team here. They're super dedicated and we wanted to put on an event for service now, professionals. And Robert and Corey are someone that I've had a relationship with for probably about four, almost five years now. So when we were thinking about putting together this event, they were the first person that came to my mind.
Um, I said, we need to get them here. , they came all the way from Chicago, so make thanks to them, super excited to have them here. , and at Oscar, what we're really doing is we're doing service now recruiting the right way. , we're trying to improve the candidate experience as well as the client experience.
So any clients we're working with as well as candidates, really just trying to improve that experience from start to finish. So that's where we really add value and that's our goal. So, I'm really happy to be a part of it and for our team to be here and for all of our guests. So thanks so much for coming.
and now just a quick intro on these guys. , so a 20, 22 developer MVP, , seven year service now, independent. 10 years working with service now, which is a feat within itself, a co-host of CJ in the duke of podcasts that. I know a couple of you guys have heard of. , and your favorite partner's favorite architect?
Corey, CJ, Wesley. So thanks so much for it.
I'll take it. our other guest speaker and another co-host of CJ and the duke is the duke, , four times service now hackathon winner, a 10 time, 10 time service now, knowledge conference speaker a six time community MVP, a two-time developer MVP, Robert, the duke for Doric.
So thank you guys for coming out here And.
uh, take it away.
[00:02:16] CJ: Alright,
[00:02:17] Duke: Shoot, man. How are we going to beat that intro?
[00:02:21] CJ: impossible. Never we'll try.
[00:02:22] Duke: Alright, we'll try it. All right. Hey everybody. Welcome to another CJ in the duke. This is episode 60, and we're doing it live from Philadelphia, the Philadelphians, and finally arrived. All right. In this episode, we are going to be covering, if we could do it all over again.
[00:02:46] CJ: Yeah, man. We gonna figure it out. We're gonna talk about where we came from. Like where are we going? What we would do differently if we had to do it all over again,
[00:02:55] Duke: And this is our first live event. So
[00:02:58] CJ: never done it before.
[00:02:59] Duke: never done that before. , so.
, it might not go as smooth as we hope. but we hope it goes really smooth. Excuse us. We usually have our notes in front of us while we do the episodes and I'm going to call it. From my phone in front of me, , while we talk. But, ,
[00:03:10] CJ: Yeah. I mean, we've never done one of these looking at each other. This is a weird,
[00:03:17] Duke: I've never,
done one of these outside of my pajamas
[00:03:22] CJ: and typically what a bottle of bourbon,
[00:03:23] Duke: Yes, we have pasta three drink minimum though. So, all right. Let's get us started. Corey and I agreed the first thing that we would do differently, when we started out.
is to form really good relationships With exceptional, staffing and recruiting, people.
[00:03:39] CJ: Yeah, absolutely. Forming relationships with folks like Oscar, I think, , would probably be the first place that I would start. when thinking about joining the service now ecosystem, these relationships just pay back in know dividends over and over and over a year after year after year.
I mean, we've known Kyle for how long now, like four
[00:03:55] Duke: five time
[00:03:56] CJ: a long time. Right. And,
even though we don't necessarily do work with kind of like every month or every week or every year, you know, having that relationship and being able to bounce things off of him, you know, in the ecosystem and, having that phone call come through when he's got something.
Hi that he knows that I'm into. Right. Like, and that for me, does integration work. Right? And he's like, Hey, I got an integration work or you're going to love this. I'm like, let's do it.
[00:04:20] Duke: It's that, it's that passive benefit too. Right. Or as soon if you invest enough to form a good relationship with a good and reputable recruiter, agency Oscars all the top of our list, obviously. Um, but it's just, you spend that energy And it works for you in the. it's not,
something that you have to keep on. Like you're not doing your own sales, right.
They're out there looking for you.
[00:04:41] CJ: well, that's a great thing, right? Like you don't have to do your own marketing. You have to do your own cells where I like cows doing that for me. I appreciate a cow.
Yeah. So, I mean, like you said, it's passive, you know, you just wake up one day and you got an email or you got a text and boom, you got work
[00:04:57] Duke: and make no.
mistake. Not all these companies are created equally. There are some, players in this space that are dangerous, harmful to get involved with. And so let's let Corey know. I'll make it easier for you put an Oscar at the top of your list,
[00:05:14] CJ: the age, that's where, that's the word. My list starts. This Oscar is, you know, some space and then it's like everybody else
[00:05:22] Duke: I like there's other topics we've got to talk about too, but Cal keeps keep passing me money. So. Kyle is dashing and sink.
[00:05:39] CJ: well, now we really do appreciate you having us here, Kyle and Oscar as a whole. So definitely thank you all. And thank you all for helping create this event. It's been going great. And we really appreciate it
[00:05:49] Duke: All right. So, uh, yeah, let's talk about stuff. We would do the same. Okay. Rewind. However many years, it's over a decade for both of us. What would you do the same?
Corey?
[00:05:58] CJ: All right. First thing I do the same. It's just read all the things, right? Like, so, a lot of what got me here is just accumulating knowledge from all parts of it as a whole and even stuff outside of it. And just reading and consuming, whatever I can find, that stuff is kinda like the passive model.
We just talked about like forming relationships with, recruiters. It doesn't, it might not necessarily pay off like right then when you read it, but in a year, you're going to remember that article you read, and you're going to think about this new service now product. And then those two things kind of get together and you're like, oh, I can do this this way.
Or this is a value that we can offer to a client, or I get that perspective, right. Like where they're coming from. And if you didn't read that, like one of my, , reading hobbies is business culture, right? And so there's always a lot of tidbits that I pick up from there when I'm interacting.
clients, especially in like the conference room kind of setting being able to pick out, okay, this is the person who's, who makes the decision. This person is here only because they get to say no. Right. And then all these other kinds of things. And so, when you have that kind of, that volume of knowledge to fall back on, yeah.
That's one of the things that I definitely wouldn't change.
[00:07:05] Duke: I have mine, similar. anybody else?
grew up as an army brat.
Let's go ahead, nobody. Okay. So I grew up as an army brat and, , My dad, was an infantry man and you want everything to run efficiently in the house
And so things had to be done just so like, oh, you're brushing your teeth. No, you brush your teeth this way or you're making your bed and you're going to get rid of this way. and it was just like, there was a set routine in the morning, you wake up, you get dressed, you brush your teeth, you make your bread and that's the way that you wanted it And That's the way, that you taught me. And, so the thing that I would do, the same is daily drill, The stuff that you do, habitually in order to keep your preparedness high, And your efficiency high. So I kind of did this by accident and started my career. It's just like I come into it's kind of like, nobody's going to expect me to do anything. kind of useful until about nine. Right. But I'm here at eight and it's like, okay, let me, let's see what's up on the service now community, if the slack channel was, that was around, then it would be like, let's see what's on the,
slack channel. or let's see about this thing that I was looking out on docs. And it was like 30 minutes every morning of trying to answer somebody's question. Even if I didn't know it, looking at somebody's question And reading the answers that were there And it was just, there was, no embedded purpose in doing it there. wasn't like I'm really trying to figure out GRC and this, and that's, I'm only going to read about GRC. No, it was like, I'm going to read the front page of the service now community every morning and either try and answer or read somebody's correct answer. and it's not much at the time, right.
But then you stack That over 10 years, right? 200 work days, times 30 minutes. times, 10 years is stupid amounts of RNT.
[00:08:47] CJ: Yeah. It's a
[00:08:48] Duke: Yeah. And everybody talks about what would be great to learn by osmosis. It's easy. to Learn by osmosis, like read something for 30 minutes every day and then stack that over years and you can't beat it. you just can't beat it.
So I would do that today.
[00:09:02] CJ: and that's how you become a 10 time community MVP to, right.
[00:09:05] Duke: I'm not quite there yet. I need another three years. So, yeah. daily drill that includes motivated. just what are the, what's the word I
[00:09:16] CJ: I forgot already.
[00:09:17] Duke: but it's just automatic. I, at this time I sit down, I read docs. I read community, I read SN dev slack channel. I don't care what
specifically are learning only that I am performing the drill.
[00:09:29] CJ: exactly happy building.
[00:09:30] Duke: Yeah. Habitual. That was the word.
[00:09:32] CJ: Yeah, no, it was a good idea. I'd say another thing that, I am really happy that I've, that I do and probably wouldn't change either is that I was really glad that I generalized in it before I specialized in service So that gave me, that gives me a huge base of it stuff to kind of draw on when I'm dealing with folks and, 80% of the folks who are using service now are in the it space.
. So when you can walk into that room and you can speak that language, . actually know what they're talking about, then, you know, new, you know what you're talking about even more, right? Like you can convince them. That you understand them understand their problems that you've been there before that you get it through the lingo, , the whole nine yards.
and generalize it. And it kind of allowed that, it allowed me to get a jumpstart in , it ops, right? Like, so doing discovery, doing orchestration, , integrations, all things that are very like, it kind of specific that not a lot of other folks are doing in the industry or at least not doing very well, just because they just, they don't have that experience.
. Like it's a whole lot harder to learn how to, , how a Cisco router works. Now, once you're in the service now ecosystem than it was 10 years ago, if you were doing it as your day job
[00:10:38] Duke: and it means more now, right.
If we can start our careers again. Now when service, like when we started it was like I TSM or custom apps pick your choice. Right. And now it's like, they got so many business processes I've even started losing track of them, but if I was like, let's say I did something else. Like At one point I thought maybe I should be a project manager. Wow. Um, but like let's say I had gone a year down that path. Like The first thing I do is go into service now, and do ITBM. Right. Because it matters so much that
you just understand their language, the terms that they use, the rituals, they perform, the artifacts that they consume in their day-to-day life. nothing is worse right now than somebody who's got. super, flight experience.
on it. And then they come to an ITBM implementation thinking the world works the same disaster. They don't even speak the same language. They literally. don't speak the same language. I don't know where I was going with this, but
[00:11:37] CJ: no, no, I follow you on it. Like, it is one of those things, like being a PM in a service now ecosystem, you need to know how service now thinks about. Right. I mean, that's really what it comes down to. So you go and you learn ITBM. And so when you come to a service down project and you are a PM, you know how service now is going to dictate how you
[00:11:56] Duke: you, but you can even be a PM and then go into ITBM implementations just by the fact that you understand their language.
You didn't have to be a developer. It's like,
the module is not that hard. . And you could, be the person implements like, Hey, listen,
Back when I was a PM, I thought I sucked at status reports, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But service now does a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then everybody's happy,
[00:12:14] CJ: man. That's like a whole nother podcast. Right. Because you know,
this
[00:12:17] Duke: blah, blah.
[00:12:19] CJ: is all about talking about like how you can tell. A process or a part of the business that, you know, introduce intricately, . And then use that as a, and to become a service now expert without necessarily knowing how to write code, right.
Without even necessarily knowing a whole lot about the platform, like just coming in and actually giving direction on how to build a process is half of the things that I do day to day in, in whatever client, with whatever client I'm working
[00:12:45] Duke: I'll give you, another thing I do. I do the same. So if you've heard any of my content on YouTube or the podcast you'll know that storytelling for me is like an apex skill in the system. If you can tell good stories, you do everything else better. by extension. And, I didn't come across that skill by accident I wasn't born with any natural storytelling talent. uh, what I was, born with was a lack of a filter
and a big mouth And so it would be like, it didn't matter the context, it didn't matter. my position in the company. I give my opinion always And I either walk away from that with a corrected idea of how the world works or a bunch of people that have considered my opinion and found value out of it. And I feel like this can be a huge, roadblock for a lot of people. in terms of like, well, I'm not that I'm not a director, so I shouldn't say how this should be done.
Or I'm not the process, owner. I shouldn't say how this is done What if you're the only person who sees the blind spot
You know, it, you know, it's like, you're, you're, you're, you're the only person who sees the danger coming, or you're the only person with that weird experience that you had, where you can say, listen, yeah, I've seen that in a different context.
It doesn't really work the way you're saying Hmm. there is no at least I haven't experienced it. I've never experienced where the company says, who are you to say something either? right. Everybody comes to a table they want to do what's best Right. They want to do what's best And so there are, especially in this day and age with like The diversity and inclusion initiatives and stuff, they're like it's such a social thing to like, let's find out. what other people have to say. And so like the one thing I would do the same is go right back to those days, And no matter what, give your opinion on whatever. you're doing.
[00:14:31] CJ: Yeah. I got a story about that actually. I'll try to make it quick.
, so back when, , I actually had a day job, , I was working , in it and, , we had an outage for our website. Right. And his website was this huge deal. , it was CIO level, important and it was down and it had been down. It had been going down routinely over the last month or so, and it was down.
And then the CIO was getting called by like. And so he was a little bit upset. So our best tech guy was in his office troubleshooting it. Right. And I I'm new to the company at that point. I'd only been there about six months, But problem solving is what I do troubleshooting is what I do. Right.
So I'm at my desk, troubleshooting it as well as it comes out. Right. Like I find out what the problem is as our best tech guy in the company is finding out what the problem is. I call the CIO, the CIO up, right? Like I'm new guy, six months call his direct dial. Hey, I figured it out. And as I'm telling him what it is, the guy, the other guy who was in office, he was like, yes, that's exactly it.
I just figured it out too. Right. And from then on 15 year career at that company, I was on the CIO radar for the rest of my career there. So it was all about speaking up, not being quiet. Right. Not being scared, folks hire you because of what you could possibly bring to the organization.
So show them what you bring.
[00:15:44] Duke: That's boss moves right there,
man We're
[00:15:47] CJ: It did actually
[00:15:49] Duke: We got the one you and I agree on, right? The who's first.
[00:15:52] CJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah. which one is that?
[00:15:55] Duke: customer
[00:15:55] CJ: No, I don't have that one.
[00:15:56] Duke: the other thing I do the same is, the customer first.
[00:15:59] CJ: Oh yeah, yeah,
[00:16:01] Duke: absolutely. Yeah.
[00:16:01] CJ: You know what it is, duke it's about value first, right? It's about putting the business first, as an it guy, right?
Like again, like I have a certain lands or at least I had a certain lens that I looked at everything through. Everything was a problem that was. Buy it right? Like a new router, a new server, a new configuration, some code that needs to be written, whatever. I often didn't see, what the business actually needed or didn't know how to communicate with them.
It didn't understand how they were communicating back with us. Right. A lot of that changed once I discovered Itel. but you know, what this really came down to is that being able to focus on the customer and understand what they value and then being able to shift how we delivered to meet those values, changed everything.
Like as one of the things that, enabled the perception of it, to go from a cost center to a division that was actually adding value to the
[00:16:50] Duke: and I think the most
practical day-to-day way that you would manifest this is to just see beyond the things you've been asked to do. It's just,
Hey, we want you to rearrange the category tree for the umpteenth time for the umpteenth time. And, and just like be willing to just take a deep breath and saying, Hmm, But what does the business. get out of this. . And even just asking that question sometimes leads, to better requirements, . It leads to more invitations to be at the table. Right.
[00:17:21] CJ: well that's key, right? The invitations to be at the table.
[00:17:25] Duke: , so I would just abstract this one too, to be willing, to look beyond what you have been requested because the long-term success of your spot, and the service now ecosystem is not how well you did the things you were asked to do it was how well you were.
able to see beyond that. Get to the intent of the matter of the heart of the matter. right, I hear what you're saying. The pain point is this right. Okay. There's a, better way to Sometimes it's like that other times it's like, okay, exactly what you asked for, now.
Let's just do it, but. fully. I'd say more than 25% of the time. Wouldn't You agree?
[00:17:57] CJ: I would agree
[00:17:57] Duke: not about what exactly they're asking you for. It's like, whoa, if we just back off and say, what pain are you trying to address
problems. That's right. If we understand the problem? fully a problem well-known is a problem.
Half solved. I read that on the internet.
[00:18:10] CJ: It must be true. It must be true. No, I'm just going to throw another plug in here too. Right? Like I tell foundations, if you don't have it, you need it, get it right. Like it just sets your mind. You're thinking up along this path already. And I mean, it's so valuable.
It's really cheap, really easy to pass the test. It's a great certification to have, and it gets you in this mindset of thinking about how it works with the business. And that's just, I mean, it just unlocks so much.
[00:18:38] Duke: All right. I got, I got one more if we may, and then we Go to the, uh, things we'd do differently. , the one thing I would do the same is be obsessive about, Yeah, and this is like a scary one. Like there are people out there spending a quarter million dollars to get something implemented and they have thought not one second, about what reports they're going to run to see if their outcomes are being. achieved. Can you imagine going to a car lot. And
doing all the things you do at a car lot, going through all those negotiations, putting those keys in the ignition and turning it on, and only, then you discover that you don't have wheels. It's the exact same thing. There's no difference.
Can you imagine you spend a quarter million dollars and you don't know why.
[00:19:26] CJ: Well maybe the act of spinning the quarter million dollars was the dopamine hit that they want it. Right? Like it's like I wrote the check. I feel really good about the check. We're good.
[00:19:39] Duke: I can't imagine it. Where, where anybody wants to spend a quarter,
[00:19:42] CJ: When he's not your money.
[00:19:44] Duke: maybe a quarter million dollars to someone else's money. I don't know, man, but before I worked in service, now, I worked with the tool that I got obsessive about reporting then. right. right. And when I came to the service now ecosystem, it constantly shocked me, how, many deployments were being done. And it's just like, you know, you see the scope of work is 50 pages
long. Here's all the stuff we're going to do It's going to be awesome. Here's all the terms and conditions. And one bullet point on like age 18, do reporting.
[00:20:13] CJ: , yeah, yeah. And it is often do reporting. We would like five reports, three dashboards. Thanks.
[00:20:23] Duke: Does it matter? What's on them like literally. Okay. So like Last week Corey, we're now officially on the same client together. last week. I was on the phone with a customer. They spent Absurd. amounts of money implementing ITBM And they're like, and we don't really understand.
the two reports that they built into.
[00:20:45] CJ: Yeah, that's it, this is a very interesting client. This is a great client, by the way, very interesting client they're moving fast and breaking things. And so, there's been a lot of fallout from that, but yeah, the two reports, I mean, there's, there's so much.
Yeah,
[00:20:58] Duke: that they don't understand, dude. They don't like, Why are you spending you spend all that money to do it.
You're spending everybody's time? to put this record. Nobody wants to enter records
This is something we do because there's an expectation of value at the backend, but.
F and nobody wants to sit there on service now. And just like, who's the user, if the user is rubber, but the short description is that nobody wants to do that.
Anyways, I went there.
[00:21:23] CJ: So I'll piggyback on that one. Right? So I, you know, my thing is do the hard things, right? Like I've always done the hard things in my career. I continue to do the hard things. And so I have a bit of a reputation for taking on the hard things that nobody else will, will do this kind of the whole thing about your favorite partner's favorite architect, right?
so many folks, the ecosystem called me, I got one client who called me. This was a few years ago. , their architect who was building something, it turned out he, they had over-utilized him. He was tapped out. Didn't build what he, what they needed him to build. , there was a client demo that was supposed to happen on a Monday.
. It didn't go off. He called in sick. . So I get a call and he's like, Hey, , I need you to demo this guy stuff. I was like, okay. , where is it? He's like, isn't the instance. All right. What happened was like, yeah, he was sick. I was like, oh shit. Like it didn't happen. So I told him, I said, look, if he called in sick on demo day, he didn't have anything to do.
Right. That's just number one rule. So just so you know, right? Like your architect ever calls in sick on demo day, he doesn't have anything to demo. So, you know, he's like, okay, well, if we don't demo anything by Wednesday, we're going to lose this client. I was like, all right, let me take a look at it. So I jump in, I look at it.
It's like, man, this literally nothing here. There's not a script include, there's not a function. It's not a business rule. There's nothing. I got to build all this from scratch. It's a whole project that was supposed to be delivered and I got to build it from scratch in two days, I did it. Right. Which is why I'm number one on his, call list.
But it's the whole thing about when you get in these situations, say, yes, it wants the worst. That can happen.
[00:22:53] Duke: in harm's
[00:22:53] CJ: This isn't my problem, right?
[00:22:55] Duke: I get in harm's way. And it's like, if you look at all the personas in the industry, that people look up to the Travis Tolsons right.
The Corey Wesley's the reason why.
people look up to them is because they have slaying dragons. right.
And you don't slay dragons by taking the safe work. You slay dragons by saying, that sounds awful. Okay. Let's do it. Right. And it's like, I feel like sometimes I have the right to say that was BS, work, hated doing that or whatever, but because I waited waist deep into the sewer system To fix the clog. Right. so get in harm's way is definitely
it wasn't on my list, but I would, yeah. If you want to come up fast, just get where the danger is.
[00:23:38] CJ: exactly. You'll get a reputation that way. I mean, if you deliver, if you don't deliver, I mean, people stop calling you.
[00:23:44] Duke: Nothing teaches you.
how to fight faster than getting punched in The face.
So I think that's just a, that's a great one, Should we say we're 26 minutes of recording, so let's maybe move on to stuff that we would do differently. You want to roll off on that one?
[00:23:58] CJ: Sure. so one of the things that I would do differently is one of the things that you would do to saying, right. I don't have any daily rituals. I didn't start any, I started in this space. I didn't start anyone that started in it. I love it. I love computers. I love technology. Those are all my, um, all of my hobbies, but I don't like sit down and intentionally do any one thing, not until recently.
Anyway, um, I recently lost, uh, lunch, the newsletter, right? I'm on issue number two now. Right. I initially launched or created the newsletter, like in 2020, right. It's sad. There was no content, but I started this ritual like, okay, I'm going to write every day. And as I started to write every day, I've actually got content to put out.
Right. And so one of the things that I would definitely do differently is to create that daily ritual way back in the
[00:24:48] Duke: Man, mine is really, really close to that one, is that I would just write down. everything. I, again, I'm doing this over a span, of like 14 years. Right. But you get better and better at whatever you do And So taking notes about just anything and then, you know, you guys have all heard me rant about documentation, right.
And most partners think documentation is too hard cause it takes too long, but I've been doing, documentation forever, And I just, it goes fast for me. like I don't spend any more than 5% of a scope of work doing document, full documentation of whatever. I've deployed. . But even though I have that skill, I would start earlier and do more because nothing you ever get that thing, like somebody is like, how do you do this? And like, yeah.
You just um,
[00:25:30] CJ: yes.
[00:25:31] Duke: I did that. I did that just, um, six years ago
[00:25:35] CJ: yeah, Exactly.
[00:25:36] Duke: and it's just like, how did I do it? And then You're thinking you wasting like an hour of time trying to rebuild it from your memory. But if I did just spent 10 minutes on YouTube learning how to make One note work really well or some kind of note taking paradigm, And just taking all the notes, all of them. And it helps you, not only in terms of like, it's six years later I'm looking back on, this thing I solved, but it's also like, you know, you're neck deep at a customer and you're supposed to do this thing.
And they're like oh, you're supposed to do that. Another thing too is like, not according to the meeting notes, Right So it's it's such a great CYA strategy. It uses different neural pathways. If you look at the science behind it, like it's just, it's different to write it down than it is to do it. It's different to write it down than it is to say it Yeah. And so just writing it down gives you a different way for this stuff to just get absorbed and calcified in your head. So. I would just write down
everything it's shameful, the amount of knowledge that I've lost over this amount of time, just because I, I just said, I'll remember that,
[00:26:38] CJ: yeah, no, totally. I find myself in this same situation, looking for code that I wrote six years ago, hoping that I got an update set backed up somewhere where I can kind of pull it out. Right. Like, yeah, no. So yeah. Write down everything.
[00:26:52] Duke: just those things you rediscover every time. Like How many times have you been troubleshooting email? And it's like, how calm this? email sound. And Because the email doesn't have the check box of send send to event.
[00:27:04] CJ: Oh God.
[00:27:06] Duke: like, I've learned that listen Every year, for 10 years straight.
And it's just, I feel like if I just wrote it down. it would just anyways.
[00:27:14] CJ: Yeah, no. And you learn that lesson and not only that, but then you have to remember to learn that lesson too.
Yeah, totally. one of the things that I do differently, right. Is that ask for help more, I'm pretty independent. I like, , solving problems myself. I'm pretty good at it. Right. But sometimes I waste time, create solutions that have already been created, . Instead of pinging Robert and say, Hey man, tell me about documentation along the lines of, you know, XYZ.
, I kind of beat my head against it for, you know, a week. And then I ask Robert,
[00:27:45] Duke: well, you did that for that performance analytics job,
[00:27:47] CJ: absolutely man,
[00:27:49] Duke: the next day.
[00:27:50] CJ: dude, you literally saved my butt on that one. Let me tell you, so there was a PA job I'd never done PA before. And the client was like, yeah, we need you to do PA for this thing. And we need this reporting and we need all of this stuff. I was like, yeah, great. I'll do that for you. Right.
Because that's what I say. And I was like, okay, I've never done this before. And then I wouldn't look at your YouTube. And I saw a little piece of a PA thing. And I remember we, we talk all the time. Right. So I was like, dude, PA help. Right. And you'd like sent me some stuff and then I use that stuff and then boom, I was a pro, right.
Like just like that. And so instead of beating my head against PA for like two weeks, trying to figure it out, like I just called Robert. And so I need to do more of that. And I should've done more of that along, all through my career. I'd probably be a lot further in, in places where I want to be
[00:28:35] Duke: that's another great tangent from the drill. Because if you're doing drill and actually participating in the community, and SN devs, you build up a certain credibility and like, uh, you know what I mean?
You build a social cache So. that when you're in that, when you are cornered, Now, you have people that know your name and know your contribution that you can just like ring the doorbell and say, Hey, I know, you know a lot about portal. Can you just like, help me with this one thing. Right? So participating socially and doing the drill that way, actually like is a force multiplier on this ask for help more because you know what you have to do when you, when you're a stranger and you have to ask for help, you have to beg for help.
You know what I mean? Like you have to, like, you have to justify why somebody should spend an hour, on you, but if you're a no name, it's like, oh yeah. Well, I mean, this will come back to me. So I'll give you an hour
out
[00:29:23] CJ: can we talk about to I, how you ask for help? that's a really important skill, like is knowing how to ask for help. I've seen people, you know, drop in like a sentence.
Can you help me build change management? Uh, no, no, I can not. I can help you build a specific part of change management. If you tell me where your.
be specific about the ask and then you'll get help.
[00:29:47] Duke: and tell me what you did. Yeah. I hate chewing people's food for them.
You know what I mean? It's like, if you show me your like open your mouth and show me that you shoot this thing half way and then I'll help.
[00:30:01] CJ: Yeah. I mean after metaphor, I guess, but yeah, no, totally. Right. don't want to reinvent the wheel. help me help you essentially. And, and so when you're asking for help realize that there's another person on the other end of the, of the screen or the phone or whatever, and that person has their own stuff to do.
So if you want help from them, help them help you.
[00:30:21] Duke: even though it wasn't
[00:30:24] CJ: Hey man, will you, you know, we just make it a work.
[00:30:27] Duke: we're doing it live.
[00:30:28] CJ: We'll do it live. All right. You
[00:30:31] Duke: next one I do I should've done this within the whole, like write down everything point, but reflect on, what you write, go back. And review. and it uses different neural pathways when you're doing something versus your looking at something that has been done. So but do that to your own work and calcify the lessons that you've learned from it in your own mind,
[00:30:52] CJ: That's a good point.
[00:30:53] Duke: that down to what It's like, If I like nowadays, maybe it can become old and I need to remember stuff better, but, I'll do something. and things like mutate over the course of a project too. It's like, I, I did ITBM this one time again, And it was like it's three months later and it's done now. and The customer's happy, but like really let's just rewind that. What lessons can I extract? from it. Yeah. there's value in the review and extraction.
[00:31:16] CJ: No, I totally agree with you. I'm on a client right now. And, so repeat clients. I helped them last year. And now we're at phase two, but phase two is four months later than phase one ended. I got no idea what I built last year. I don't remember what the requirements were. I don't remember why we didn't make certain decisions when we made some weird decisions and I'm sure we had a reason.
But I don't know what they were. and they're like, they want us to hit the ground running. Like they want, like you did this before. Let's go, we're ready. I'm like, we're not. So we got like a sprint zero to get back, where we were so that we can help. But if we had done what you said, right, like internalize all of that and revisit it and make sure we knew what we get done.
And, just as part of the process, we wouldn't be in this. , my next thing is what I've done recently. This is very recently like early this year, so I've hired a business coach and that has been a huge unlock for me. , one, because there's somebody to hold me on. Right. Like a service now is a great ecosystem.
Market's really, really hot. Right. So, I mean, you could basically, if you're good at this thing, you can basically fall and roll into honey all the way through the year. Like it doesn't take a, you know what I mean? Like if you're good at it, clients come, you come looking for you. thanks, Kyle. Uh, you know, there are things that, you should be doing to be more intentional about growing your business.
Right. And I, wasn't doing a lot of those things and I wasn't holding myself accountable and I wasn't setting the goals like I should. And I wasn't, which is, again, the reason why I started a newsletter in 2020, and didn't launch it until 20, 22. Right. Like, it's just things like that. Right. I wasn't holding myself accountable.
Um, one of the best things that I get out of this is literally, it's just having somebody to talk to. Hold me accountable. and guilt in myself. Like, I don't want to let this guy down. We talked about this stuff this week and we're going to catch up again next week. I don't want to say I didn't do anything.
Right. So now I got to do something and that keeps me accountable. That makes progress. Right. And the, and, and this is really just like a standup. what did you do? what are you, what are you having problems with? what do you see yourself doing this week? That sort of thing.
But I mean, it's been a huge unlock.
[00:33:27] Duke: Well, it's like the gravy train is not going to be around forever. right?
So so it's like you gotta
[00:33:35] CJ: move to strike.
[00:33:38] Duke: denied. putting the good habits, right? like it's so easy to be so busy. that you don't Think
the good habits. all I have time for is the work, Not for the,
[00:33:50] CJ: You
[00:33:51] Duke: You know what I mean? Not for the review and the like optimization of My career. is just, Oh man. Especially if you're an independent consultant and it's like your work, your 60th hour and it's Friday night. It's like, you're not reviewing shit.
what I mean? Like, it's just, no, you're going to like go and just have fun with your friends or your kids or whatever. So it's like, it
[00:34:11] CJ: you're lucky, if you get the invoice out,
[00:34:12] Duke: I know, even if, even if it's not like, okay, I'm not going to hire a business coach right now, then at least dedicate time in your week to be mindful about your future, you know what I mean? about the future and that kind of dovetails into like the reviewing what you wrote and what you learned, but a little bit of time every week, you know what. That's one thing I desperately would have needed is like 15 years ago to like treat this like a 15 year thing. I just didn't know.
I was like, oh, well, I mean, when we started, it was like a startup,
still Yeah. It's just like, is this thing going to last? You could be another tool tomorrow, but it's like, if I didn't know. him, then,
[00:34:48] CJ: I knew it was the future. I just didn't know how big it was going to
[00:34:51] Duke: like how big
[00:34:52] CJ: Yeah. I'm
[00:34:53] Duke: I remember when they were like, somebody's going to be a billion dollar
[00:34:56] CJ: yeah, yeah. Right.
[00:34:57] Duke: And everyone's like, how are they going to do that?
[00:35:01] CJ: 15 billion later.
[00:35:04] Duke: Yeah.
[00:35:04] CJ: So yeah, absolutely man. It's like I said, a huge unlock, just having that accountability partner just has helped me a ton. and even if you don't hire a business coach, right. Getting an accountability partner that you check in with once a week and, consistently I think can only help
[00:35:19] Duke: all right, we got 31 40 minutes.
of record. Should we skip the Q and a or yeah. All right. Great. Well,
You guys. that was awesome. so we're going to do Q and a, I'm just going to be up here just to kind of facilitate.
, but does anyone have any questions? , my man suffering in the back. If you do ask a questions, soap that I made. Oh, question gets you a bar of homemade soap.
It smells amazing. I already, I did get a bar myself. I couldn't resist. So you definitely do want to ask some questions. So, so let's what. So the question is, what kind of team would you build around a custom app project? What kind of skill sets would you look for? Is this got a generally, right. , I love when I call them real devs, like air quotes, right? Like people who, if service now imploded tomorrow, if all the data centers just, where did they go?
Uh, if you would still be a developer, right. I love when those people get onto service now, but I wouldn't take somebody raw from that and go, cause there's a learning curve. And especially around the objects and API APIs that ServiceNow has available, there's just no substitute for a couple of years experience in what APIs I can call and what, like, how would it, how are like a real dev do glide record?
You know what I mean? It would make a lot of sense to them, but like somebody like me, I look at them and like, what the hell are you?
Especially if you're building a scoped app, which to me means real
serious now. Okay. Like, no, we're not, we're not playing around here. , the leaving the hat believe in have like a familiarity with scoping, which I think is a different, on the outside it's way easier you got get hub and all the.
ways of source control.
And then somebody comes into service now on scoping. Oh,
that's kind of like this. And so I would be looking for somebody with
the scoping part to, uh, to a, to a real dev or to a, to a recruiter. Okay. scoping
to a recruiter. Uh, okay. Imagine that
everything we build in service now is a Jenga block. Okay. and you
know, we just, we start stacking all the Jenga blocks and it looks pretty good, but he's getting higher and kind of wobbly and you put your Jenga block on the top and you know, this thing is balanced, right.
So if this all falls down, it's not your fault. Right. But you know,
that right at the bottom, there's just like, you know that if weight is taken out of the system right here, if somebody changes this block, total F bombs right now,
imagine somebody just takes out block out because they're like, oh yeah, we just need to add this function to this thing.
Or we just need to change the way this function was brought all the way up to Jenga tower. Bam blows up. So, I like to think of scopes as like a really durable bubble around the stuff that you build. That's not out of box. It's not
that it makes it impossible for people to, uh, F up your day.
It just makes it, they have to be intentional about effing up your day. Right. So they have to like, literally go to the menu and manually say, I want to work in this scope now. And. Just that manual effort makes it harder.
to knock over the Jenga tower and it makes It a lot less. It makes it a lot more organized.
Right. So it's not like you can't build on this because it's in a scope So intentively purposely
go into that scope if you want to change it. There's another question. Yeah. well. I like, I, there's two things.
that you have to maximize for when you got a scoped out project.
Number one, Is it safe? And future-proof Does it take. less energy to maintain than other options? right
Well, none of like, there's two things, right? There's does, does the app work the way we hope it does? Right. Do we get the value out of it? We want, and then next is it hard, right? Is It
a hard target?
It's it lives on its own. It doesn't take a whole lot of energy to maintain both administratively, but also can other developers accidentally. mess this up, for us. And that's what the scope question resolves. Knowledge of scope is just one piece of that puzzle. Right. But
if you're dealing with like, Hey, we've got this service now project, it's building a custom app.
there's no substitute for having somebody who has built custom apps on service Now
before. I love when full-stack developers come in, they learn the platform, they start building the platform, they bring their world of knowledge into to do that. But you can't do it from that.
That's a
[00:39:43] CJ: Yeah. I, what I'd add to that too, is that it's just different coding on service now than it is coding outside of service now,
[00:39:52] Duke: they have so many objects and stuff already pre-built for you right? Yeah. You don't have to build a business rules engine. Right. You don't have to build an interface like,
[00:39:59] CJ: And getting your head around the fact that some of this stuff is already done for you and just hooking into it. And instead of rebuilding it, and then also thinking about, , code maintenance, right?
Like when this thing is done, somebody who likely has a whole lot less experience developing the new we'll have to maintain it. And so if you come in with your 15 years of no JS and your react and all of that, and you build this thing and it works, that's great. But then if somebody who's got six months of service, now experience has to maintain it and they can't figure out like what half of the calls mean because they haven't gone that deep into the JavaScript world.
Right? Like now you've created a different problem.
[00:40:38] Duke: Fantastic.
question, by the way, , come on up and get a bar of soap. These ones are, these ones are for vegans. By the way, if you're vegan, this is your choices. This is coffee. This is tobacco and Bailey. This is barbershop in, and that is swayed and Hickory. Yeah. amazing. Amazing. Our next question is from, Joe here at the front where he got Joe. Thanks for being here.
[00:41:02] CJ: Uh, so for those at home, uh, the question is what's the difference between a technical architect and a solutions architect?
From my perspective, they're all the same. Right. And that's not in the industry. Right. That's just my perspective on it because I like to do all the whole thing. Right. I like to be first person, this building solution also like to be the person that's actually, talking through the solution with the client, but ultimately like a solutions architect.
Isn't always the person who's going to build the. Right. They're not the person that's going to do the development work, that a person who was going to sit with the client, figure out the problem, figure out the solution, figure out the architecture of the solution, break it down, typically into stories and pass that off to someone else.
Now the technical architect is going to be the person typically figuring out, okay, now we have a solution. How do we align it? Best practice wise to the instance. And then also, how do we build it? What code do we use? Where do we put it? You know, this, this a script include business real, we're using a scope, or are we not using scopes? Uh, you know, all of those kinds of more like nitty gritty, you know, instant specific kind of, um, kind of, uh, kind of decisions typically fall under the technical architect where the solution as a whole, for the instance itself. Right. And for the client typically falls more with the solutions architect.
, yeah, but I, you know, I like doing both.
[00:42:20] Duke: has a bigger
[00:42:22] CJ: Yeah. Ask a question.
[00:42:23] Duke: I can maybe take that.
[00:42:24] CJ: Yeah, go for it.
[00:42:25] Duke: I think it's a really interesting time to ask that question because I think the word architect has done a lot of work. You know what I mean?
And some work that it has no business doing. and
it's rapidly. I keep using the word calcified. I need a better word.
[00:42:40] CJ: solidify
[00:42:41] Duke: really hardening, like service now is trying to solve the problem of what is an architect actually
Right? So they have the certified master and certified technical architects.
I don't think you can get through either path without having technical savvy. even certified master you have to have the certified dev. right?
and I think, I think they're trying to make it a lot more specific a solution. If you reroute two years, I would say there are basically BA architects, program manager, architects, developer, architects, and admin.
architects, right.
People who did a lot of time in each of those disciplines and somehow managed to be the, the shot caller. And so in one sense, I, worry because if I want to bill myself as an architect, it's delicious rates. , I have to do architect dish things and that's
hardening, but at the end of the day, I'd rather be the person who's invited into the room for the seat of the table, because,
Shit gets done right. And gets done well, and good outcomes are made, you know what I mean? Like,
[00:43:39] CJ: I mean, you, you mentioned like the word architect doing a lot of heavy lifting. I think ultimately, , what the word architect does is get you a seat at the table, if you, even if you're a master a solutions architect, or if you're a technical architect, either way, you're going to get invited to the meeting to have a voice and have a seat at the table.
[00:43:58] Duke: like I've seen, at a customer, on a partner product owners, indistinguishable from architects, but I've also seen architects that don't know the first thing about product. ownership.
You know what I mean? So it's such a gray area. I want to say, don't worry about it. You know, put some thought into it because everything's really, becoming rigid now, but it's hard to worry about it I would worry about delivering the value. I would worry about saying my piece. I'd worry about calling the shots. right. And Then everything. else will kind of work.
[00:44:28] CJ: Yeah. Yeah. And I worried, and then I choose like a path, right. If you'd like to be a more technical than you will go more technical architect, if you like being more kind of consultative solutions.
[00:44:39] Duke: from a
recruitment I really agree with that.
so,
let's say if you found yourself as a developer right now, , then
you would probably naturally want to go more down that technical architect path.
If you find yourself as a consultant, Now, a project. manager, like Robert said, maybe even an admin For several years, you might find yourself more passionate down, the solution architect path. The technical architect path Is just a tough transition for someone that's been functional their whole career. But if you've naturally been in that, development space before, you're going to find that a very easy transition. now what's more rewarding. you know, that's a really, tough question. It really depends on how you look at a career. Right. I do think there's a lot of value out there for technical architects right now because it's really hard to find that technical knowledge, but you can find a lot of, value as a solution architect. if that's something you're passionate about and you bring that same skillset from a functional side.
So as opposed to, fitting that, , what they say that round peg into a square hole, really follow your passion. Um, so if that is the functional side, sitting with stakeholders, , definitely look down the solution architect path, But if you find yourself, naturally more technical, try that. path, cause you will find a rewarding from both sides, but again,
a great question.
Thanks so much, Joe. Was some audience commentary. I'm not sure if the mix picked it up, but there's audience commentary about the CMA being Set up as a C-suite discussion, aspirational. kind of alignment role. And I'll say this and don't nobody tell service. Now. I said, okay. I think that the service now master architect is, hyper valuable to the, ecosystem. I don't think it's something that is meant to be pursued from a client per se. they want,
the CMAs at the partners, getting customers to spend a million dollars more. they don't want them to be at the customer saying like, yay for me. I made the CMA. Like they're, they're very motivated to get their best partners to put their best people in the CMA program. It's ultimately a sales initiative, not a career alignment initiative for the broader ecosystem. And I say that without taking anything away from the program, it's awesome. We need it, but just.
go in eyes wide open. Cause actually like somebody is going to pay me 15,000 for this. Right. And if you're like, working for a customer, you don't want that person to be you.
Right. Just I'll put it that way.
[00:47:09] CJ: absolutely. I was, I was, I was going to cap that off too, by saying like, if you're thinking of an independent path, technical architect is the way the go.
[00:47:18] Duke: All right. And Eric questions? That was a good comment though. John, come up and grab us.
[00:47:21] CJ: a few. All right, Roseanne, what do we got?
[00:47:23] Duke: so the question is, on what would you, what advice would you give a youth going into it? And I'm going to actually like, cause you said there's a, thought leader that says the 10,000 hour rule to become exceptional. I. think that was, There's a YouTube video on, check out the 40 hour rule because the guys, main intellectual piece was that 10,000 hours is for like a limpic level. performance. But getting good at something is actually like a 40 hour experience. If you had the best kind of learning experience over 40 hours, you could be. you could be a good cook. You could learn to surf. You could learn to like, I don't know, turn would on a leaf. and be good at it.
Adequate at it. Let's say, and I think that would be my advice to that youth would be, don't make exceptional Olympiad, right. Performance. The enemy of being really good at something. and it doesn't take that long, like an ITIL course isn't even 40 hours and to end right. reading the books might be right.
And there's other, I've heard other. rules of thumb. like if you read 10 books on
any subject, you're in the top 10% of anybody who's ever executed that subject. So I would be like, don't worry about the time to mastery. Just
learn profoundly right now. justify why you're interested.
Don't just like, it. sounds like it pays good, bad. I. Right. but it does something to captivate about you to justify that You're going to spend 40 of your best hours cranking on it and go from there. And then there's the question?
[00:48:56] CJ: yeah, I I'm really bad at giving advice about it, specifically, because I've been doing it since I was like six, right. So it's just, it's been second nature for me. Like I, you know, it was a radio shack, Tandy, TRS 80, you know, it was apple Tuohy.
Right. Then it became, you know, windows machine with dos six to two and windows three.one. And, spending hours, literally hours trying to figure out, like, not, I wasn't trying to do anything like productive. I was trying to make games run. how can I get do neuron with four megabytes of rent, four megabytes of Ram, right.
Through all of those situations, I became good at it. and all of those situations occur because I didn't have money to pay anyone else to do those things for me.
[00:49:40] Duke: And I think the beautiful case of boat service now is it doesn't have to be an it entryway anymore.
[00:49:44] CJ: That's true.
And that's what I was. Yeah. That was what was going, where I was going to get, like it now is different. Right. It, when I came up was hardware, you know, you got to put the computer together. You gotta know how, all of how it works. all of that stuff is abstracted. Now computer, the parts only going one way, the, the operating system takes care of everything you need to there's no, IRQ nobody knows what this stuff means, by the way. No, there's no hierarchy or DMIs or anything like that. Right. Like all of this stuff is taken care of you about for window by windows or Mac iOS or whatever. Right. So the only thing to focus on is what part of it is interesting to you.
Are there any prerequisites for that part of it and then start there?
[00:50:25] Duke: You want something on that. Yeah. Just quickly. , so we get this question all the time, , from people with no experience right out of college, how can I get into the service? now ecosystem, , take the job, do it every day, train yourself every day.
and you'll find yourself in six months, you're going to be getting reached out to, by these companies. There is a huge demand for service now, talent right now, but the way to get there, if you don't have experience is to be consistent. And if you're consistent, successful, com. but that's the advice I give everyone that I talked to that once again, the career.
So Hopefully that's helpful.
[00:51:00] CJ: I got a question for the crowd here actually. Now that I'm thinking about it, show of hands is anyone out here actually know what a parallel port is to people?
Yeah. So find a prerequisites and start there.
we
[00:51:17] Duke: have any other questions. out there. She can always come up and grab them. So one more.
[00:51:20] CJ: Yes.
[00:51:21] Duke: Louis in the back. it does a whole episode on that. I can take it though. 45 minutes Okay. Listen. Yeah. Okay. A custom application is to apply process where none already, exists. So there. is no, Oh, we got five. So we should like, you can't go out of the box, therefore you're doing a custom application. And So the right question is how hard did you look for alternatives that were out of the box. Did you? even do that discipline? And if the answer to that is Yes, then. Okay, great. Does the business need This Yes. Great. Custom application is your only option a that whole, we have a whole episode with Travis. Toulson on customization versus configuration. You're totally.
listen to that episode. , because it's not it's the whole idea of like customization, bad. configuration.
Good. is, Way too simple way too
[00:52:20] CJ: Absolutely.
[00:52:21] Duke: harmfully
[00:52:22] CJ: Yeah, for me, this comes down to tech debt, not creating new tech that, you know, you could customize to your heart's content as long as you do it appropriately. follow the service now, best practices.
So you don't get in the way of what they're doing. If you do that, then customization is just fine. Right? It does. Platform is a bill for customized customization.
[00:52:43] Duke: customization.
[00:52:44] CJ: You can't,
but I mean, they can't build every single line of business process. And there are some costs, custom processes out there that, folks have that they're never going to bill. So is the solution don't use service now or is the solution have someone build it? Right.
[00:53:02] Duke: Yeah. And I think it, I think it's that whole hygiene and care and. methodology, and, and standards that you put in place so that you can build safely. I've seen customers that have one custom app and it's a disaster. I've seen other customers, man. There's one, they spoke at knowledge a couple of years back. I can't remember their name. Ah, it's going to bug me all night. , but they actually have a it's one of service now is biggest citizen developer projects.
And they literally like people in their company, you just come, I'm going to build a custom app. Sure. Yeah. Here's your space. And You know what I mean?
But they can only do that because they did the really hard work of having Just massive architectural attention, huge engineering approach. Like, Hey, listen, how do we, take nobody's and let them build apps on service Now but they've done that hard work and now they do it.
And they've got tons of custom apps that are brilliantly managed exquisitely made, So I hope that answer makes sense. Cause it's not a direct answer, but
yeah
[00:54:03] CJ: Oh man. Uh, next question.
[00:54:08] Duke: I mean, listen, when I was before service now, when I was using HP.
[00:54:13] CJ: So the question, the follow-up question is,
[00:54:16] Duke: Good, good Cole
[00:54:17] CJ: is that sometimes what we're hearing is that sometimes if a custom app is created, the service now will then create that custom app themselves later. Alright, go
[00:54:29] Duke: I don't see why it's a bad day. Like I literally don't see why it's a bad thing. When I w when I used Products before
service, now, there is one HP OpenView service desk. The last thing that, that mankind has ever committed to code,
[00:54:44] CJ: it was horrible.
[00:54:44] Duke: like, it was just an abomination is what it was. And we literally had, we had to get some kind of new custom table to store something exotic and they're like,
well,
see, the problem is, if you build a table called XYZ, then we might have the same idea someday and we'll make a table called XYZ.
And then SQL is going to barf all over you because the database can't have two tables with the same name. And then it was like two weeks later, we talked to service. Now they're like, nah, man, we put a, you underscore in front of the ones you build yourselves. Oh, really easy. And it's like, build whatever you want.
I'm trying to figure out what would be the harm. And their first foray out of it as Sam was HR. Right? because they looked at everybody's custom table names and there's like, everybody's building HR stuff.
Let's build one too. But did that bring harm to the people who built their HR team? Probably not. And if you read the licensing really close, they have this intentional clause. Like, so if you build an app that you intend to use for something that we already do, you're paying that license fee, which makes total sense.
So it would just be another iteration of that paradigm where it's like, okay,
you built an HR module, you're happy with it. We have an HR module, two, welcome to HR licensing.
[00:55:56] CJ: basically
[00:55:58] Duke: And if that's a problem for you, then you didn't do the value proposition. Like, is this the, is this app worth it to build? If you have to pay for it.
[00:56:06] CJ: True. I think there's another aspect to this too, right? Like they'll be glossed over and this and that is I built this really cool. And it's working for my client and maybe one day I might want to monetize this an app store. Oh, next release service now released the very same app. I hat,
you know,
[00:56:30] Duke: Yeah. People always tell me, don't get in the way of the train. Don't
[00:56:34] CJ: I mean, that's basically
[00:56:36] Duke: all right. have time for one more. No, we're good. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming out.
[00:56:42] CJ: Thank
you.