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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I would like to invite
you to take a moment,
finding your center,
finding a place to take inventory.
Whatever that looks like to
you, be it sitting down, laying
down, finding a place of ease.
And in this process,
the invitation to explore,
the invitation to center,
and most importantly, the invitation
to let the mystery unfold.
I breathe in and breathe out asking
you to deeply connect to your spirit.
Your body and your heart.
Watching immediately
what takes center stage.
Breathing in and breathing out.
Taking a moment to truly
connect to your spirit,
your body, and your heart.
Once again, breathing
in and breathing out.
Finding all the information
being received as an opportunity.
Breathing in and breathing out.
Looking towards this invitation.
as an opportunity to explore.
Breathing in, finding grounding.
Breathing out, connecting to your spirit.
Now taking a moment to
watch the emotional heart.
In this minute, what is
the emotion arising in you?
Taking that in and now
moving into the body.
How is the body receiving this emotion?
Breathing in and breathing out, now
allowing it to land in your spirit.
No judgment,
allowing yourself to be present
to your holistic body and spirit.
With one final breath in, and a grounding
breath out, finding your center,
finding your body, and
finding your spirit.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly dose of the
Psychedelic Psychologist, where I
invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experiences.
Cover a variety of topics from overcoming
addiction and severe depression, to
finding wholeness and spiritual emergence.
Today, I'm witnessed and grateful
to be present with Jerry.
Jerry, it's great to hear your voice.
How are you coming in in this moment?
Thank you, Ryan.
I'm honored to be here.
An excited opportunity to share
my experience with others.
What's the emotion coming up right now
that I'm hearing and witnessing in you?
It is, it is truly something of
joy for the opportunity to, share,
my experience and, and my story,
with others is that has proven to
be a, a very therapeutic., Method
for integrating the experience.
I really commend that.
And I honor that because I know it
takes a lot of courage, vulnerability
and transparency in that.
And so in doing what drew you to
psychedelics as a healing modality?
Well, I, I would say, my earliest
introduction to psychedelics
was of course, recreationally.
And I certainly, at that time, did not,
did not comprehend the, the healing
powers that, that they offered.
And
And did not understand the importance of,
that and setting and, and frankly, dosage.
Are you saying four grams of
the grateful dead concert isn't
appropriate for deep healing?
I mean, it can be a few face
melting experiences and you start to
question if they're really for you.
And as such, that, that led to a rather
long hiatus in my, my psychedelic
experiences, perhaps 10, 10 plus
years, where in which somewhere
along the way, I had heard tale of
the therapeutic benefits of
microdosing and was intrigued by it.
As, as someone who has
unsuccessfully worked with, I would say
relatively unsuccessfully worked with,
traditional, you know, Western
therapy, antidepressants,
and trying several of those to, kind
of remediate or at least help and,
and, and to be fair, they did.
Provide help.
And
they, they helped me to be able to
recognize that I had more work to do.
It gave me the space to
realize that I had work to do.
This being in, you know, traditional
antidepressant medications, but.
After learning about micro dosing
or reading or about micro dosing and
people's reports of the benefits that
they were, gaining from doing this,
this practice, you know, set out
for some personal experimentation.
However, not.
Not always the most, scientific at
first, but, I think it was, I'm, I'm
better for having crossed that bridge
and frankly, helping myself to lose the
fear that I had developed because of
my, youthful, youthful experimentation
with psychedelics recreationally.
You bring up a really great point
and I'm extremely impressed by your
prudence and humility around this.
But there was a call and it sounds
as if you started to investigate
the appropriate set and setting and
there was motivation that was unable
to be Touched with antidepressants
or traditional talk therapy.
What what was the call?
What did you recognize within your
system your body your heart your lived
experience that drew you to a deeper?
intentional work with psychedelics
well
I would say it, it really was in
some ways exasperation with the,
the work that I had been doing.
And
while I was able to raise my
emotional state, from despair and,
you know, through being able to do that,
I be, I was able to recognize that.
I had, I had more work to do with
healing, versus just medicating pain.
Can you unpack that?
Because I think that's really beautiful.
The difference between healing and
going towards healing versus medicating
with pain or medicating the pain.
How do you differentiate that, Jerry?
So
not, I would say the difference was
I could recognize that I wasn't.
Feeling as much pain,
but also that
I still knew that the pain was there.
I, I, I liken it to, hesitate to say
numb, but it just did a blunting of
emotions that, that really occurred
across the spectrum or the range
of, of emotion, it, it wasn't just
restricted to not feeling depressed.
And in some cases, it was not fully
experiencing joy in the moments that,
that I knew I was elated.
Thank you so much.
So what I'm translating, and can
you speak more of that, is it's
an uncovering of all the emotions.
It wasn't just a bluntening or dampening
of, oh, I'm that depressed, but rather
what you started the thirst for was
the kaleidoscope of emotions Yes.
Yeah.
And, and not only because of the,
medications, Because of the experiences
that were causing the pain, I recognized
this disassociation with the pain
that
really didn't leave much
room for a range of emotion.
Yes.
So knowing, and not to put the cart
before the horse, but you and I
did some deep intentional work in
preparation to this, knowing that
you were going to do a therapeutic
guided experience with psilocybin.
And what was that preparation like?
What did you realize within
intentionally going towards
this with reverence and respect?
What was that initial preparation?
I would say Perhaps, for me, the most
important understanding and acceptance
of, of the experience and, and what
my intention was within, was that
it was, I was seeking this work,
just be the best version
of myself that I could be.
That I could, I could recognize
that I wasn't living that
despite wanting to , I had
sort of developed a, I would say
a protective armor in response to
the traumatic experiences that,
that kept me from sharing
myself freely with others
and
life's too short to go through it,
withholding the love that you have.
Well, that was a really beautiful reframe.
And I see and hear and watch your
smile because I know your story to
be influenced with grief and loss.
And yet you just turned quickly to saying,
and it's too short to live in that space.
Was that it?
With the benefit of the psilocybin
experience that allows you to have
that perspective of honoring what
you've gone through but witnessing
what you still have on the table?
Yes I, I would say very much so.
I, I, I wouldn't say it's
solely because of that.
I feel Can you tell me more about Some of
the, some of the experience and that That
sentiment came from the knowledge gained,
however, unfortunately, of the brevity
of our, our lives and, and the importance
of, of living them to the fullest.
Not to, not to sound cliche, but to
really take advantage of this,
this short time that we have
with, with the others that we find
ourselves surrounded with every day.
Thank you.
What's the emotion coming up as you
say that and feel that embodiment?
Well, it's, it's, it's hard not
to, to reflect on the, the sadness
I've experienced, but it's, it's
coupled together with real joy and
wonder with the, the world around.
And, and honestly a celebration of, of all
the good that I have experienced, despite
some, some very sad things.
Yeah.
I see you and I respect
you so much in this moment.
Does the psychedelic
experience as you integrate it?
Provide you a sense of insight,
reassurance, confirmation of
the importance of walking this
path and honoring what has
become the spirits before us.
I would say
I might need that one again, Ryan.
Sorry.
Yeah, that's okay.
I love it.
Has the psychedelic experiences and how
you're integrating it, giving you more
hope as you walk with the medicine and
as you walk with the experience you had.
I, I would, I would 100 percent
say that the experience and
integration thereof has, has really
allowed me to reframe my outlook.
And, and change
my feelings and focus of my feelings
from what was lost to honoring
shared experiences that I have
only because of those who've
been lost and to recognize
the influence of that in my everyday life.
Thank you.
And that influence, I really want to
just shine a deep sense of heart and
love to you in this moment is the
grounding and the strength that you have
in going into yourself and witnessing
your beloved and the people and the
spirits that walk with you, no?
Very much so.
Do you get that you hold them and that
they walk with you in this moment?
Every day.
Can you say more?
It's, it's, it's taken,
it's taken the experience to
recognize and, and truly believe in
my heart that they do walk with me.
It sounds, it sounds simple to me to say,
these people aren't really lost.
They're always with you, et cetera.
And that's I understand
that, I know it, right?
But now I feel it in a way
that I, despite feeling confident
and knowing that they were
always part of me, now I feel it.
Hmm.
And what does that prove to
you with that felt sense?
What has that given you?
Oh,
it, it,
it really writes the ship, I guess,
is the, you know, things, you
know, Things get rough and from
one day to the next, it might be
some sign occurrence, usually with some
humor and sarcasm in the situation.
But it's usually one of those, Oh,
hi, kind of moments that I recognize
them, you know, Yeah, isn't it beautiful?
And on that humorous note, I had lost
someone very dear to me, and The story
was that they were going to show up
as butterflies, and I, in the dead
of winter here in Minnesota, go,
well that's really fucking helpful.
So in all of my deep honor of our
grief and walking with active grief,
there is Synchronistic humor, and
I so appreciate you echoing that.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It also serves as a reminder for me
to find, even in the
darkest of experiences,
to find moments of humor, you know.
Just celebrate those people, really.
I deeply love you for that and echoing
that, because it showcases the multi
facet and dimension of their spirit, no?
Oh, absolutely.
Jerry, as you hold psychedelics
with so much reverence and using
it as one of your tools, how do
you define when it's appropriate?
To use it and when it feels
necessary to access it.
Well,
there's a, it's sort of a double
edged answer for that one.
In, in some cases while approaching
the experience, I had been
doing work on my own,
trying to gain some of the
meaning and, and hope that I
sought through the experience.
In the time after that experience,
I have yet to cross over that line
again, because of the new found
reverence and understanding of the
significance of the experience.
I haven't, I haven't been able
to go there by myself again.
That being said, I feel the call
almost every day and I'm so thankful for
the experience that I, I long for that.
Thank you.
But I, I haven't quite gotten back
to it yet and I, that's probably
more practical than anything else.
Well, it leads to what you said earlier
about, you know, harnessing the tools
and expressions of the sober path, right?
Which I've been a strong advocate
recently for is this idea is we can
have these ecstatic and spontaneous
experiences that are so true and so real.
We have to also walk with them
with reverence and tend to those
as experiences and not try to
superimpose a new one too quickly.
Yeah, and part of, part of what I gained
as part of the experience was an ability
to recognize the work yet to be done.
Can you say more about that?
That just totally woke me up.
It's very alive in me.
The, the work yet to be done.
Can you unpack that?
Yeah, I, I, I feel, and I, and I know that
my experiences of grief, Had been
so much of the sound of
noise of my emotions that I
ignored other things.
I, I, I had so much hurt
that things that, and feelings
that were causing me harm
didn't even register.
And because I've been able to.
To make peace with these experiences.
And I don't mean to say that and suggest
that I don't feel sadness about them.
That is far from the case.
And I've become much more comfortable
with crying around strangers and others.
And much more likely to let
it happen when I'm called.
I
lost myself there.
No, I really appreciate it.
What's your body saying to you right now?
Man, I got wrapped up in my feelings
and lost my train of thought.
Yeah, what's the feelings, what's
the emotion that you are bringing
forth in this center stage right now?
It's, it's honestly a matter of,
matter of personal strength and
self assurance in my ability.
It, in, and shed the, The lack of
shame that I would have otherwise
felt as a a man who cries.
True fucking true beauty,
true fucking magical beauty.
And I'm so grateful to witness it.
It's very, very respectful because
it's pure to the source of the emotion.
No, absolutely.
And, and I've come to find that
not only is, is sharing that emotion
in the moment important for me and my
healing, but I like to think that it also
helps other people recognize that they
are able to share those feelings as well.
I'm
not saying I'm an example that I
would choose for everyone to follow.
However, in that moment, and in that
sense I'd like to melt some of the ice
around sharing emotions with people.
With those around you and not
just reserving it for those
within your closest circle.
I, I endorse that a hundred percent
and I think it is a great way
to showcase and lead by example.
Well, because we own it too, right?
So if we're capable of showcasing
those emotions in a setting that
feels appropriate, and you know,
the emotion is congruent to the
lived experience one's having.
There's really no pain in that
or suffering because you already
are in consent to it, right?
I find it empowering.
Right.
Jerry, to pivot, go ahead, please.
I don't have to hide that,
and as you said, it is It is
very authentic and sharing
with the people around me and
it is what I am experiencing.
And I don't have to hide behind a mask of
everything's fine.
Right.
Yeah.
It's fine.
It's fine.
Everything's okay.
It's okay.
It's okay.
It's good.
I'm good.
I'm good.
Yeah.
I'm good.
The planet's rotating at a
thousand miles an hour and we're
flying through outer space at 60.
I'm good.
Everything's good.
Yeah.
Everything's fine.
Socially, we're good.
Politically, we're amazing.
Everything's great.
Everything's fine.
Jerry, what are you doing
to be gentle with yourself?
Well, I, I certainly am allowing
myself to express emotions and sadness.
I mean, it's not restricted
to, to just sadness.
I feel like I'm more authentically sharing
emotion and love for the people around me.
And with the.
world as a whole, because
I am free to share a wider
range of emotion that I feel,
and I feel safe to do so.
And I'm excited to watch it and
profoundly grateful to have you
on this planet, sharing that love,
laughter, and emotional spectrum, right?
The emotional spectrum is Yeah, there
is, there is so much wonder in the world.
And it is Easy in our comfort
and routine to focus on those
things that we don't like.
And I've been able to.
Better celebrate all the joy.
I continue to hold space for
myself and my feelings and for
self-reflection and meditative thought.
Most often in Conjun Junction
with time spent in nature.
Mm-Hmm, that seems.
To be where it's most accessible
to me and to acknowledge
my, my feelings and emotions
while I'm experiencing them.
Right.
The integration of it.
So it's aligned.
So you're allowing yourself.
Yeah.
I love that.
Journaling has been perhaps my.
Most effective tool in opening that
recognition of my own emotion where
often previously thoughts would come
in, I would dismiss them as intrusive
thought of some way, shape or another.
Now I take brief moment wherever I am
to just record those thoughts.
In all honesty, I don't.
All that often go back and
review them or reflect on them,
but it solidifies the emotion
as real.
That's all that, that's
all that matters too, no?
It's a good lesson in impermanence
and attachment is acknowledging it.
So I respect that.
I honor that.
Yeah, thank you very much.
Thank you.
It's a deep honor and a humble
privilege to walk with you, Jerry.
I'm grateful.
Yes.
Thank you.
So, so happy that I, that I can be here.