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Sharing the Atom, a special podcast from the Department of Energy’s National Nuclear Security Administration and Argonne National Laboratory, takes you on a journey from the discovery of nuclear fission to the development of global commitments and systems to also use that discovery for good.
Sharing the Atom tells the story of how world leaders came together to develop a political and legal framework that enables the pursuit of nuclear technologies for peaceful use and how that framework is needed more than ever today.
At the center of this story is an international treaty: The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, or NPT. Though seen by some as primarily a measure to stop the spread of nuclear weapons and to hasten nuclear disarmament, the treaty also created the economic and security conditions for countries to access nuclear technologies for use in agriculture, energy, industry, and, of course, medicine. As demand for various peaceful uses of nuclear technology increases in response to numerous global challenges, the NPT is as relevant as ever in supporting a peaceful and prosperous world.
Voices included in the series: Ghanaian Ambassador Kwaku Aning, Canadian Ambassador John Barrett, Former Canadian official Jim Casterton, Dutch Ambassador Piet de Klerk, Brazilian Ambassador Sérgio Duarte, Doctor Guiseppe Esposito, NNSA Associate Deputy Administrator Rich Goorevich, IAEA Director General Rafael Grossi, Former U.S. official Lisa Hilliard, NNSA Assistant Deputy Administrator Corey Hinderstein, U.S. Ambassador Laura Holgate, Former President of Urenco USA, Inc.; current NNSA Assistant Associate Deputy Administrator Melissa Mann, ABACC Secretary General Marco Marzo, Former Secretary of Energy Ernie Moniz, Nigerian Ambassador Charles Oko, Former Deputy Secretary of Energy Daniel Poneman, Author Richard Rhodes, NNSA Deputy Administrator Frank Rose, Former IAEA official Laura Rockwood, Economist Geoffrey Rothwell, Scholar Scott Sagan, U.S. Ambassador Adam Scheinman, Economist Tom Wood
OKO: The potential of the atom could be destructive and should therefore be prevented, in that light. But the other side of the atomic coin, if I may say, is an endless potential for good.
Charles Oko, is a former counselor in the Permanent Mission of Nigeria to the IAEA.
The time has come for the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty to continue to be the tool, the cornerstone, through which the international community can collectively ensure nonproliferation and achieve disarmaments. But it should also fully serve its other ability, which is to make peaceful uses of nuclear energy available for developing countries, in a way and manner that those countries are able to research, develop and use nuclear energy for non-weapon purposes, but in a way to serve humanity.
Former U.S. Energy Secretary Ernie Moniz
Moniz: Basically, all of these threads come together; climate change, energy security, NPT, and issues of addressing potential proliferation pathways as nuclear fuel cycles expand internationally with climate change as certainly one of the major drivers.
Welcome to Sharing the Atom, a special podcast from the Department of Energy’s National Nuclear Security Administration and Argonne National Laboratory, that takes you on a journey from the discovery of nuclear fission, to the development of global commitments to use that discovery for good.
Sharing the Atom tells the story of how world leaders came together to develop a political and legal framework that enables the pursuit of nuclear technologies for peaceful use and how that framework is needed more than ever today.
[Sound design interlude]
In the first three episodes, we explored the conditions that led to the negotiation of the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT), and we demonstrated that the treaty enhanced the sharing of nuclear technology for peaceful uses. However, can we ensure a Treaty that came into force in 1970 will continue to be relevant in the foreseeable future? If so, how?
In this final episode, we examine the continued relevance of the NPT as the foundation for peaceful nuclear cooperation in the 21st Century. Nuclear technologies likely will have an important role to play in helping to address multiple global challenges, including climate change, sustainable development, and energy insecurity, as well as the need to support equitable economic and technological development. In this regard, the peaceful use commitments enshrined in the NPT remain fundamental to achieving this end.
Again, Secretary Moniz.
Moniz: The conversation for clean energy has evolved very considerably just in the last years to where I would now argue it's near consensus to understand that the clean electricity system of the future cannot be dependent only on variable sources like wind and solar, even if you add batteries. You're going to need what's called firm power. So zero carbon electricity that can be, again, whenever you need it. Nuclear is a very, very prime candidate among, I might say, very few candidates to play that role of firm carbon-free power.
The key is we must develop these technologies and deploy them at scale while maintaining the highest non-proliferation standards. If we don't, this whole thing will go sour and we will suffer. In the climate world, we will suffer. In the energy security world, we will suffer. In medicine, we will just suffer.
I think the positive vision of having all of these uses carried forward while everyone has confidence that those technologies are growing without creating new security concerns is really the world that it's up to us to create now over the next 20 years. It all starts with let's get talking again across all kinds of boundaries so that we can put forward real solutions and gain the benefits globally, not only in the industrialized countries, but also in the emerging economies and the developing world as well.
John Barrett is the former head of the Canadian Nuclear Association.
The small reactors are what maybe the developing countries could really utilize. They're not so big, they're not so expensive. So you could right away the vision, you can see the fit, but how do you make these technologies, as I say, resistant by design? And I think that's where you're going, is that we want to get industry to say, don't just do the design and say, "Okay, regulator says, we have to fix this, fix that, fix that." No, do it from the outset and get it right.
That will build a reputation of the worldwide nuclear industry, first of all, shores up the perception. It's going to make people like me and others talking to the public saying, "You're worried about proliferation, you can't from this particular product or device or new type of reactor, it just can't be done."
Many see climate change as among the most salient challenges of today, and they see nuclear energy as playing an important role in combating it. Charles Oko.
All these realities of climate change bring us to a situation where, when juxtaposed against the growing population across the world, requires us to utilize creative solutions. And in my view, nuclear is one of those creative solutions. We do not need to reinvent the wheel. Nuclear technologies and nuclear techniques are applicable to several different challenges, and it's important for us to begin to think of how to adapt them to meet these challenges.
On the energy side, again, with an optimistic hat, if some of these new technologies do see the light of day, some of these new reactor designs, these new fuels, they can help address some of the issues associated with climate change.
Jim Casterton, a former Canadian government official who has worked on nonproliferation policy for more than 40 years, notes one of the largest uses of nuclear science.
They're not going to resolve all the issues around climate change, but they can make a contribution to the resolution of some of these problems and if we can do that one step at a time and include nuclear as an option within the various other options, I think it's a positive way forward.
Richard Rhodes is an American historian, journalist, and a Pulitzer Prize winning author, most recently of “Energy: A Human History.”
Richard Rhodes: You could indeed move beyond fossil fuels entirely if you built enough nuclear reactors in the world, which today, I think again, come to the fore as an understanding of the real potential of nuclear power at a time of global heating.
Nuclear fuel cycle economist Tom Wood believes that nuclear industry has changed over the years, as goals turn to larger, global, and more conceptual benefits of nuclear power, for example, in the effort to reduce climate change.
I guess the conceptual image I have of nuclear power economics is that it's had a turning point. It's at a watershed moment in a couple of different senses. And so something has to change with respect to their competitive structure.
Early on in the nuclear era, the benefits from nuclear power accrued primarily to the country that built a plant, and even the specific region within the country used the power that the plant produced.
That's still true to some extent. But the large share of future benefits are now associated with climate effects and with the reduction of carbon emissions to the atmosphere. And those benefits don't just accrue to the power plant owner. They accrue to the world at large and all of the countries in the world. And we have no way at present of representing that incentive. The incentive to reap that benefit effectively through a financial mechanism.
And so, we're in a position where we are going to very significantly under-invest in nuclear power from an economist's perspective for two reasons. One, the cost is high, and two, we don't have an effective mechanism for connecting the beneficiaries with the construction process. So that's an overview of where I think we are there.
That’s where the NPT plays an important role in addressing these challenges. Ambassador Adam Scheinman is Special Representative of the President for Nuclear Nonproliferation.
The NPT itself brings political and legal rules and norms that would simply not exist in the NPT's absence. It touches virtually on every aspect of our nuclear policy from the period of the Cold War right through today, dealing with great power competition. It's been recognized by President Biden, by Secretary of State Blinken as central to our shared responsibility to prevent nuclear war, to pursue arms control, to safeguard nuclear energy, to advance sustainable developments. So virtually every aspect, as I say, of our nuclear policy has been touched in some way and informed in some way by the NPT.
[W]e do need to pay more attention to the priorities of global South States, and we can do it through the NPT process and by expanding access to peaceful uses of nuclear energy. Incidentally, that would be in our interest to expand such uses. It can help address climate change goals. If done well, it can promote a stronger, healthier, more effective International Atomic Energy Agency. And it can certainly help governments have a greater stake in the success of the NPT.
Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency, Rafael Grossi, is a diplomat and was President-Designate of the 2020 NPT Review Conference.
There is a need to keep the norms relevant. Of course, by complying with them, but also by bringing them closer to the understanding of those benefiting from them.
It's something that must be done through our technical cooperation programs, through our contacts with parliamentarians, through our contacts with the scientific community. I think not always we note, or we remind those who are benefiting from cooperation in this field that all of this is possible because there is this norm that is out there that is enabling all of these things.
They get cooperation or when they get hard work and something that there is something called the NPT. Which is perhaps way back and apart from the activity of the day, but it is there as the backbone.
Many see another great challenge as meeting the 17 Sustainable Development Goals, or SDGs, which the United Nations developed in 2015 as a call to action for sustainability, and similarly see a fundamental role for the NPT.
Charles Oko, former counselor in the Permanent Mission of Nigeria to the IAEA.
Several goals, and sub goals of the SDGs, would be better achieved by countries if they are able to use and apply nuclear technologies and techniques.
The third pillar of the NPT, peaceful uses of nuclear energy, opens up a horizon that can be exploited and could create a basis for cooperation in human health and cancer control.
Again, Secretary Moniz.
I do want to reinforce the statement that nuclear is often associated immediately with nuclear energy. Of course, in the climate change context, that's the number one issue there, but we should remember that right from its beginning, the peaceful uses of nuclear energy was intended to be much broader. Today, it is much broader with especially the use of specialized isotopes in multiple situations, in manufacturing, geological dating, the food industry, manufacturing, really across the board. It's a major enabling technology.
I think it's important to broaden the table. It is important for all voices to be heard. It is important to move, or to transition towards, a situation where think tanks, institutes, women and youth groups, civil society, NGOs, politicians, regulators, operators, intending operators, also participate at a national and international or a regional level, in these discussions.
Because the broader goal of using nuclear technologies for socioeconomic development is a goal that, in my view, needs to have ownership and participation by various independent voices within a country and within a region. And this includes, of course, private sector. Private sector financing could and should play an important role. Investments, banking, regional development banks, regional organizations committed to development. For example, the Africa Union, or the Africa Commission on Nuclear Energy. In my view, they need to play more active roles, that their voices should be heard, and they should be part of the discussion. And if I focus more on Africa, I would say, they should be part of the discussion on how best to create a major, for want of a better word, how best to create a coalition of both governments and private sector, and civil society and think tanks, who are all working towards the same vision of achieving socioeconomic development through the use of nuclear technologies and energy.
So I would say yes, there is a need to expand voices. There's a need to enlarge the table, and have better debates.
Ambassador Adam Scheinman.
So I think we do need to pay more attention to the priorities of global South States, and we can do it through the NPT process and by expanding access to peaceful uses of nuclear energy. Incidentally, that would be in our interest to expand such uses. It can help address climate change goals. If done well, it can promote a stronger, healthier, more effective International Atomic Energy Agency. And it can certainly help governments have a greater stake in the success of the NPT. So I'm actually with others that you've likely talked to, whether it's from the standpoint of developing smaller, more economically attractive and scalable reactors that could be deployed in parts of the world where nuclear power has been unaffordable historically, or the use of peaceful nuclear applications to deal with all of the sustainable development related goals from cancer treatment to water management, food security and so forth. There's just simply more that we can do and we just have to get to work on it. And certainly look forward to doing that in the coming period between today and the next NPT review conference.
There are roles for nuclear industry, governments, and scientists, who all contribute to the development and sharing of nuclear technology. John Barrett, the former head of the Canadian Nuclear Association.
Barrett: My ambition has been to try to see how you can get a role for industry, especially those who are doing these advanced technologies now and whose business plan rely on their being export markets, be markets and customers outside of their national territories. So that just implies right away, you can see it's going to logically imply that you're going to move this technology to some other jurisdiction. So can we not get some of the industry representatives, sure that they can inform their national governments, but can we actually get them into some of these international meetings to bring their voice to the table?
Realizing this suggestion to broaden the conversation to include the nuclear industry would also contribute to achieving greater recognition of the positive impact of the NPT on the peaceful uses of nuclear energy and ensuring its continued relevance going forward. An important step in this direction was taken at the 10th NPT Review Conference in August of 2022 where, for the first time, representatives of international and national industry associations covering a variety of nuclear applications participated in a special event with government representatives where they expressed continued support for the NPT as a cornerstone of their industries.
Corey Hinderstein is Deputy Administrator for Defense Nuclear Nonproliferation at the National Nuclear Security Administration.
Having the industry there at the NPT I think is really important because there can be a misperception that industry sees nonproliferation and the associated galaxy around that, like export controls, and licensing requirements, and the nuclear suppliers group, and safeguard system, and all of these things as barriers to their success. And I'm sure some have thought that at various times.
But I think fundamentally what I hope is that industry sees that the nonproliferation community is actually an enabler of their success. Because if there were to be unfettered proliferation or lots of questions about the credibility of the IAEA safeguard system, the uncertainty and instability that would actually be introduced into the civil nuclear industry, I think would be unsustainable.
Again, Richard Rhodes.
RHODES: I see nuclear as taking a very large place in the world, and you can see that in the commitments that other countries are now making to building more reactors. I think we in the United States will come around as well.
Jim Casterton: So there's consideration currently being given to new generation of power reactors, there's consideration being given to the new types of fuel.
Again, Jim Casterton.
There is consideration being given to new technology, whether it be for future treatments of cancer or for any other mechanism, or activity associated with, for instance, agriculture or human health or industrial pursuit, this is continuing to go on. And within that evolution, there are challenges that will need to be faced, but there are also opportunities.
So my advice would be that, recognize that challenges do present opportunities, recognize that the peaceful use of nuclear energy can have positive impacts on the lives of many individuals.
This brings the conversation squarely back to the NPT. Former international nuclear industry executive Melissa Mann.
Mann: What does that mean for the NPT? It still applies. It's just as relevant today as it was back then, but we might have to remind everybody that it's still out there.
Within the NPT framework, there is a regular 5-year review cycle where NPT signatories meet to review implementation of the treaty. Some see this as an opportunity to make greater progress on peaceful uses. Again, Charles Oko.
OKO: The NPT community should also focus on reaching concrete agreements for progress on peaceful uses, both in qualitative and quantitative terms. And such agreements should be measurable, and implemented, and reported at the next or at subsequent sessions of the review cycle. This is important because in the current global environment, the other processes which peaceful use of nuclear energy can help us to achieve.
I think our task is to simply do more and maximize the resources that we have available to support peaceful uses of nuclear energy.
Ambassador Adam Scheinman.
We need to do it yesterday, we need to do it today, we need to do it tomorrow, and build a track record of support that we can bring into the NPT review process when we meet again in 2026. So it's really a question of what we do every day, not necessarily how do we spin it up as a new and exciting objective for the next review conference.
Dutch Ambassador Piet de Klerk has been involved in nuclear policy development for decades.
Ambassador de Klerk: I think the NPT is in relatively good health, and I don't think that if there were a few review conferences where there was no final document, that that is not proof that the treaty is in bad shape. In the long run, though, if parties to the treaty never can get agreement, that would weaken the treaty. But it's not sort of a short term relationship. Fact of the matter is that the number of parties have grown over time.
Laura Holgate serves as U.S. Ambassador to the Vienna Office of the United Nations and to the International Atomic Energy Agency.
LAURA: It is somewhat miraculous that we have this treaty, and this is why we need to steward it and care for it with such attention and contribution to that cooperation vision. As with any treaty, it requires that there be enough overlap of interest that everybody can get something out of the ultimate constellation of understandings.
Rafael Grossi, Director General of the IAEA.
The NPT is a document that is alive, that has promise, and that, of course, continues to deliver.
Again, Ambassador Scheinman.
So I think our task is to continue to preserve the NPT as best we can as an element of the rules-based international order, and to defend international law of which the NPT forms a part.
Frank Rose is Principal Deputy Administrator of the U.S. National Nuclear Security Administration.
When the NPT was founded in 1970, nobody was really talking about climate change. But as I mentioned a little bit earlier, I would argue that the NPTs continued success partly will depend [00:13:30] on linking it to these larger global challenges like climate change. And my view remains, is it really is an enabler of peaceful nuclear cooperation. And as I mentioned further, that we cannot solve the climate challenge unless nuclear energy plays an important role. And the NPT allows us to do it, it provides that framework.
Melissa Mann.
Where will nuclear energy go? Is there a future for it? My personal view is, it's inextricably linked to the climate change discussion as well as to quality of life. So I think we're going to see that with smaller reactors, modular reactors, the people who are using them, they're not going to be the nuclear weapon states more and more. We're going to start to expand into countries who've never had nuclear power. They have never had an industry around it. They may be non-traditional users, desalination plants, factories, maybe it's even data storage, but they're coming from a completely different perspective.
So if you're coming in and you're thinking, it's all about whether you're going to build the bomb or not, that's not even part of their conceptualization. They're really trying to figure out, how can I provide some of these basic resources for our community?
NNSA Deputy Administrator Corey Hinderstein.
COREY: I think a world where the NPT is fulfilling the vision that the founders had for it, and certainly that I have. It is a world with significantly expanded, peaceful uses of nuclear energy with a robust and unchallenged verification system driven by the International Atomic Energy Agency, and a world where we have fewer or no nuclear weapons because [00:46:00] we have developed the kinds of engagements and relationships where we recognize that our national security does not need them anymore. And that is the kind of world I think that provides the most benefit for everybody.
Rich Goorevich, associate deputy administrator in the Office of Nonproliferation and Arms Control at the National Nuclear Security Administration.
Without the treaty, without the NPT, would we really be in this position where we're at to be able to see this, to be looking at how we use nuclear in dealing with crop issues that people have? People with dealing with [00:45:30] infestation in their crops and other things? Looking at nuclear and a role it plays in desalination of water to bring clean and potable water to people?
There’s a lot that’s out there. I keep thinking, "What is the future?" And I keep saying, "Oh my God, the future's here now." And it's moving so fast and it's so exciting. And I really feel very honored to just be able to play a very small role in that, which is looking at it from this regulatory side of the house and this treaty side of the house. So [00:46:30] it's exciting stuff. I don't know exactly where the future is and where it's going to lie, but I'm pretty sure it's in safe hands.
Thank you for listening. Stay informed about the NPT and peaceful nuclear cooperation, visit sharingtheatom.com, where you can also listen to other episodes. Sharing the Atom is a production of the Department of Energy, the National Nuclear Security Administration, and Argonne National Laboratory, in collaboration with SOUND MADE PUBLIC, with Tania Ketenjian, Philip Wood, Sarah Conlisk, and Alesandro Santoro.