The Neuroscience of Neurodivergent Strengths and Struggles, with Dr Shohreh Majd

In episode 47 of Classroom 5.0, I sat down with A/Professor Dr. Shohreh Majd, an expert in neuroscience, to explore what's happening "under the hood" of our neurodivergent brains and bodies. Shohreh shared her insights around the biological basis of our strengths and struggles, and we riffed together on practical strategies that help apply this understanding to help us thrive.

For links to resources discussed on today's episode, see the podcast show notes here - www.marianepower.com.au/blog/47

Loved the episode? Please take a moment to leave it a 5 star review, and help us reach more good humans with stories of inclusive impact!

Key Chapter Highlights:

• The Brain and Neurotransmitters
• Understanding Dopamine and its Role
• Hormones and Women's Cognitive Function
• Adjustment and Strategies for Brain Health
• Exercise and Mental Activity for Brain Health
• Establishing and Maintaining Healthy Practices and The Role of Support
• Preventative Measures for Managing Stress and Burnout
• The Power of Self-Awareness and Pausing
• Helping Others and Creating a Meaningful Life

Connect with Mariane:

IG : ‪@marianepower‬

LinkedIn @marianepower

www.marianepower.com.au

What is Classroom 5.0?

Welcome to Classroom 5.0, a podcast helping you to design a future of learning, work and leadership that's both personally meaningful, and creates impact for a better world. Join host, CEO of The Posify Group Mariane Power in conversations that support Inclusive Impact. Expect topics and interviews that deep dive into what it takes to build a truly diverse and equitable world, and learn science backed skills and strategies that are helping our different kind of difference makers thrive.

Dr.

Shohreh, thank you so much for joining us today.

I'm really excited to be diving into all things about the brain, exploring some
neuroscience with you today.

But before we get kicking into learning all about neurotransmitters and synapses and
what's going on in these brains of ours, I'd love if you could introduce yourself to our

listeners.

So, Mariane, first of all, it's my pleasure, absolute pleasure to be with you I'm a
lecturer at Flinders University, and also I'm working with the Council of Ambulance

Authorities around Australia, New Zealand, and Papua New Guinea.

So my major background is in neuroscience, and also I have done some research about brain

pathology, different situations including Alzheimer's disease, dementia, brain aging, and
also during health situations, also different aspects of mental health.

Yes, and apart from that, I love to bring the science, to the life of people in the
practical setting and to help them improve their professional and personal lives, to know

how to use the amazing organ of ours like brain to get the best of it for their lives in
their daily lives, in different challenges that we all facing.

I know a lot of our listeners, for example, ADHD or who are exploring different
neurodivergent profiles.

And there's all this talk out in the literature and you know, a lot of our listeners are
scrolling through TikTok or Instagram hearing about dopamine, neurotransmitters, executive

function and not really understanding what all of these things are.

Talk to me about

neurotransmitters and the role they play

Definitely.

there is a big list of different types of neurotransmitters inside the brain, which, as
you said, a lot of a few of them are really important in particular situation.

So, for example, talking about decision making.

So in the brain, there are different parts which are involved in making decisions,
planning for the future, attention, solving problems, and so on.

And the big important part of the brain, which is in charge of decision making and
planning, is placed just before your forehead.

Here we call it prefrontal cortex.

And the chemicals, or the scientific term as you mentioned, neurotransmitters,

which are involved in that decision making process and planning and attention.

There are a few of them.

The most important one is dopamine.

And dopamine is a very important neurotransmitter.

It's involved in different functions of the brain.

One of them is, which is a very important one, is a reward system.

And reward system is the thing that this is the base of learning for humans and also for
other animals.

And dopamine is in the brain considered as a reward neurotransmitter.

So when I get the present from my parents because I got a good grade in school or did a
good job, the dopamine surge in my brain and it starts giving me the sense of pleasure.

And that's why I do

that thing again because I love that sense of pleasure and I love that boost of dopamine.

Dopamine has another important role in the prefrontal cortex about decision making and
about attention.

So people who are making big decisions about their futures, personal lives, professional
lives, they need to use dopamine.

So dopamine in those situations, dopamine surge in the brain and it starts helping the
prefrontal cortex to make proper decisions.

Another important role of dopamine, especially for people who are facing challenges in
focusing on something like people with ADHD or some people with like a spectrum of autism,

this is because of the some part of it actually, not all of it, part of it is because of
alteration in the level of dopamine in their brains because dopamine is very important

retransmitter to make the brain focus on something.

Hmm.

when you focus on something, the level of dopamine again surges and then make sure that
you are doing that particular task and you're focused on that particular task.

So for some patients with some people, can say with ADHD, the level of dopamine is not
that high as the other people.

And then that's why they have a little bit of challenges in focusing on some particular
tasks.

So this is the this is the dopamine that here matters.

Of course, there are other neurotransmitters and there are other areas of the brain which
are involved in this because you know brain is such a complicated.

Yeah, exactly.

And not one part is working independently.

All of them need to work totally all together in one symphony.

You mentioned ADHD and I have a personal interest in this as our listeners know, I'm ADHD
myself and combined.

And I'm really interested in the literature.

I wanted to check in with you on your expertise in this space about whether it's a
dopamine deficit per se or a difference in distribution.

So it is about dopamine partly, but as I mentioned, it's not totally about dopamine.

So there are some connections between different types of neurochemicals or
neurotransmitters inside the brain.

So I give you one example about, for example, neuroepinephrine.

So neuroepinephrine, as we call it, neuroadrenaline in England.

this is another important neurotransmitter inside the brain and not inside the brain
because we also have it as a hormone, which is different.

and this is the chemical which is released somewhere else inside the body, not the brain,
but it's still important.

So, NeuroRathernalin actually works in a symphony with dopamine.

However, its role is a little bit different.

And Neuroreprinephrine acts like a filter for us.

So imagine you're sitting in a room full of noises.

And then you want to concentrate in one particular task or one particular noise, one
particular voice.

imagine like a lecture in theater and the students are talking a little bit here and there
and one lecturer is talking to you and you want to concentrate on what the lecturer

telling you, not concentrate on the other one, other people talking to you.

So that's the role of neuroepinephrine.

This way neuroepinephrine comes to the play and start filtering the other unwanted noises.

somehow that the brain is able to just target to the voice of the lecturer.

People with ADHD due to this imbalance between neuroepinephrine and dopamine,

Mm

somehow lack that focus and targeted attention.

So this way, because neuroepinephrine is not in that level, then they are not able to
filter the noises.

So that's why when they are in a very, a little bit noisy environment, they get
overwhelmed.

And then they cannot focus on one particular person.

Again, dopamine sometimes comes to help and try to overtake if the dopamine level is good.

But because in ADHD, there are different levels for all of those neurotransmitters.

So a little bit less dopamine, a little bit less norepinephrine.

Sometimes they cannot cover each other's role.

And then that's why the lack of pay attention or the lack of a targeted focus on something
happens.

thank you.

It's not just one, it?

It's really, I think I heard someone describe it as having an orchestra.

So you've got all these different neurotransmitters and imagine that they've all got
different instruments.

And so what pulls the orchestra together?

It's the conductor at the band.

But when the conductor's not there and we're all just sitting here, you know, playing our
clarinets and our saxophones and our violins, it's a cacophony of noise.

And I certainly know.

for periods of time for myself that that selective filter really does struggle.

And so that's where having different environmental conditions helped me personally, at
least to be able to get the right connections, whatever happens there for my brain, but

it's figuring out what the environment is for you.

Okay, great.

So we've covered those sort of those two key neurotransmitters that we talk a lot about.

And I know that there's many more, you mentioned serotonin and that's impacted in terms of
our mood as well.

They all play together.

us.

One of the other questions that I know our audience is really interested in is the role of
hormones.

So the difference between hormones and neurotransmitters, and particularly for women in
different hormonal stages of life.

So I'm thinking, for example, perimenopause, menopause, and even adolescence, postpartum,
for example, what's going on with this play between estrogen and then dopamine, and why

sometimes women report almost ADHD -like symptoms or cognitive differences.

during these particular hormonal phases, what's happening in the brain?

That's a very good question.

You're totally right.

during, particularly for women during permenopause or menopause or even during puberty, so
the level of the hormones are changing and the difference between hormones and

neurotransmitters is usually basically first the place that they are released.

So whatever we call as neurotransmitters, they are released inside the nervous system,
including either brain or spinal cord.

While when we call as hormones, they're usually

Some of them are still released in the brain, but mostly they are released somewhere
outside of the brain by some glands in the body.

So the other glands that we have, for example, thyroid in here, it starts releasing
thyroid hormones like thyroxine and different things.

So those are hormones and the hormones will go directly to the bloodstream and then they
go through the blood circulation, they go to the different parts of the body and then they

start going to the destination, to the target tissue and they start showing their effects.

So during puberty, we have the surge in two main hormones, estrogen and progesterone.

And these two hormones actually will be in charge of having different effects, as
ovulation, such as showing the, bringing the sexual appearance of the women the way that

it is.

And during premenopause, those hormones start to fluctuate a little bit.

So they are not dropping 100 % the same way that they dropped in menopause, but
premenopause is starting the time of starting fluctuation in those hormones.

So they are not having the status that they had during the age pre -menopause.

So for example, one fluctuation is in estrogen hormone.

Estrogen is a very important hormone doing different jobs, important jobs, not just about
the

female specific related jobs, but also in the brain.

So working on the neurons in combination with the other neurotransmitters and one of them
is dopamine.

So the studies showed that actually estrogen can increase the level of dopamine, which is
really good.

And then it helps to boost the dopamine whenever we need it during focus attention.

particular attention during focus time, during planning, during everything.

So when we need dopamine to surge, estrogen can help and actually bring the dopamine to
the level that we want it.

Also, progesterone has another important hormone in this area, including mood regulation.

And that's what we see during premenopause and a little bit higher level during menopause
when those estrogen and progesterone start to fall dramatically.

Yeah.

then we don't have that much effect of estrogen and progesterone in dopamine.

And recalling from the role of dopamine in focusing, attention, decision making, all of
those things, when you need to have the surge of dopamine, estrogen is always a help.

And when you don't have it or you don't have it at the enough level, that means that
dopamine is lacking some support from estrogen side.

So when you need it to get up, when you're focusing,

you cannot have it that much high.

That's why women in permanent homes start experiencing some symptoms such as they cannot
focus as short as they used to be and then they bring it somehow to the other people that,

I don't know what's wrong with me or, or sometimes.

keys all of a sudden.

I've got that tip of the tongue feeling where I just can't quite get my words out.

And yesterday I knew what that name was.

I hear a lot from women.

I think I'm losing my mind.

And if you don't know what's going on in your brain in terms of all the facts that
dopamine is relying on estrogen and all of a sudden estrogen starts dropping off.

And if you don't understand that about the natural flow and rhythm of your body, I can
understand why a lot of women turn around and say, what is wrong with me?

Am I getting dementia?

Is this early onset Alzheimer's?

You must hear this all the time.

Exactly, I've heard it a lot.

When I'm working with people with Alzheimer's disease and then the people who are
concerned about having Alzheimer's disease or not, lots of women, come to me and they say,

I think I'm losing my memory because I cannot focus, I cannot remember.

And they say, what's your age and what is the other symptoms?

And then I realized that they are going through premenopause and menopause.

And I understand that absolutely this is totally normal.

It takes a while, after a while they get better and that is a little bit surprising for
them that they're going through like a little bit of less focus, less memory and they're

getting better because the brain luckily has that ability to adjust to that change and
alteration.

So...

know that.

Okay, that's interesting because of, yeah, okay.

So tell me more about that.

Like what's that adjustment phase all about?

So usually it happens to the brain all the time that when you are kind of depriving the
brain from some sort of thing, it's a shock to it, first of all.

So what's happening is, for example, if the level of a surgeon is getting down and then
the brain used to that support from surgeon or progesterone to bring the dopamine,

neurodegenerative, serotonin.

Serotonin is another important hormone which is happy hormone called and that it is under
the influence of a surgeon a lot, progesterone basically.

and then it's lack of less, not totally lack, but the less amount of them and that's a
shock to the brain.

So where is that support?

So that's why it starts losing focus and starts showing some symptoms of down moods or
something like that.

But luckily the brain has the ability to adjust itself.

So when the time goes on and this less estrogen pressure keeps going,

the brain starts working on itself, those dopamine neurons, the neurons which are in
charge of releasing dopamine to adjust themselves.

They say, okay, I have a lot of this and this is actually through actual physical and
chemical processes, which is called down regulation or up regulation of receptors, means

that the receptors, receivers of those neurotransmitters, those dopamine,
neuroepinephrine, serotonin, then they start

making more of those receivers to grab every piece of estrogen that they can find.

This way, if there is even less estrogen in the environment, they can grab all of them by
the time and then they can adjust themselves this way.

So long story short, before that they have, for example, it's just a very inaccurate
numbers.

just saying as a number.

They had a hundred receivers for those molecules of estrogens and they work on them.

Now, estrogen is dropping.

They start making more receivers, thousands of them.

They can pick up every single one molecule of estrogen in the environment.

This way they adjust themselves somehow.

They may not be able to adjust themselves within like a week or a month, but more they
make, more they work on this adjustment procedure.

That's why the women start bringing back their memory level if they are not having any of
those dementia things, which 95, 90.

seven, six percent of the women.

So then they start adjusting themselves and then they say, my focus is coming back, my
memory is coming back, my attention is coming back.

So that's ability, the brain is so adaptable.

That is fascinating.

And so is there an argument then for having a little bit of patience with ourselves as
women to wait for the brain to adjust to selves?

I know that there's sort of a tendency to rush and say, wow, here I am in this season of
life.

There must be a medication.

There must be a treatment.

There must be a hormone replacement, which by the way, I'm all for all of that and very
relevant if that is the case for you.

But it sounds like sometimes that there's a little bit of a life stage flow and a course
correction that the brain is for some capable of.

I'm guessing not for all, but capable of.

Is that what I'm hearing you say?

Yeah, yeah, you're right.

absolutely, absolutely.

I couldn't agree more, actually.

So first of all is coming the understanding of the situation.

So you have to give that information to the people, to the public to know that, this is
the situation we just happened in.

There is nothing wrong with you.

Exactly.

This is the absolute biology that everybody goes through.

And also, it's not even men, women, are talking about women, but men also going through
alteration of their hormones when they age.

So but this is not.

very much popular in the terms of discussion as we discussed about women.

then you can also add up some, I can say maybe strategies or tools that you can work on
your brain.

For example, if you work on your brain, if you start some mental activity, such as
reading, such as different things, different things, that's going to help your brain to be

more active.

those receptors, those receivers, they're to be built even in a faster speed.

So there are strategies, there are actual scientific ways that you can fasten this
situation and then bring that mood, attention, everything back to a little bit better

level, that you expect.

Great, let's go there because I've got two thoughts.

One is I would suggest that, see my brain's going in a dichotomous way here.

On the one hand is saying there's a lot of talk to say, be self compassionate, understand
that this is what's happening, kick back, relax, the brain's gonna take care of itself.

And now I'm also hearing you share, actually, this is when we wanna get gritty and we
wanna understand how to really be rigorous about exercising our brain and giving it the.

food and the fuel that it needs to be able to, you know, pull all those synapses back into
places, neurotransmitters, get them all active and get back to a baseline that maybe is a

new baseline.

Is there room for both?

Is one or the other?

What would you say about, about maybe more of that self -compassion, take it slow, kick
back versus let's get active.

little bit of both I can say.

So it starts with that understanding that this is a normal process of life.

So this is the normal stage that you're going through.

There is nothing wrong with you.

Of course, it's a good idea to if so, if some people they have frequent episodes of memory
loss or something, there is a good idea to always discuss this with a physician.

But 99 % this is not the case.

It is the case that you're going through a normal stage of your life.

This is happening.

So this is understanding.

So this way we actually take that scary part away from the women, something's wrong with
you.

The second one is, of course, definitely, you need to work on your brain.

Same as every other organ, like same as muscles.

So we don't have the same amount of volume of muscles at 70, the same way that we have it
at 20.

So that is the brain is going through a different phase, and it's totally normal.

So you need to keep going and keep working on the brain two different areas.

one physical one mental and by physical I mean actual physical workouts because exercising
working out is not just about muscles it's actually increase the circulation into the body

and then the circulation goes to the brain and actually there are lots of big big
literature showing that

More you do workout during aging, that's going to better support your brain circulation.

The risk of all of those conditions that you face during aging will be like to the half or
even less.

Mental situation, yeah, definitely.

That's important, really important.

And I say like, because people always think that, okay, I need to lose weight.

I need to lose fat.

need to do it's not just it is good, but not just about this part.

It is about also the part over the shoulder, the brain.

And also mental activity is important because you need to do some

readings and you know watching TV, scrolling down your phone, this is not mental activity.

I don't count it as mental activity.

The thing that your brain needs to focus on it, for example, reading a book and everybody
has a passion reading a book, painting, playing a musical instrument, don't know, writing

about something, doing even gardening, some activities that brain needs to do something
that think about it, you know, making something, whatever that that suits for you.

so keeping the brain on and actively engaged in something as opposed to passive, like
watching TV or scrolling through your phone.

Is there a challenge point?

So if we're thinking about particularly these seasons where we're wanting to increase the
functionality of the brain, is there a challenge point that's bit of a sweet spot?

Do we wanna feel like there's a stretch goal attached or it's more just about the active
engagement?

engagement is important, but I consider it as the baseline.

Then I get the short fit that one and then see how far you can go.

And I found it actually based on my experience, I found it fascinating that I see people
is going automatically without any motivation from outside, they go to the upper level.

So when they learn something and because the reward system is activated and they know,
learned something that I couldn't think of, I couldn't know that I can do it.

And then I know

I can do it and then that is fascinating.

So I go to learn something else.

know, for example, if they, I don't know, they, they, they, that, is my thing, like a
jigsaw puzzle.

So when you make a small jigsaw puzzle, it's such a rewarding thing.

And then you just go and buy one more and then start doing the second one, you know, the,
the, the good thing about the brain is when that your system and the dopamine level,

actually, this is the way that you can.

manually increase the dopamine level in your brain, even if I have ADHD and I want to help
myself in the terms of dopamine activation, I can do it.

just literally, I may need some kinds of medication and that's totally fine, but apart
from that, I can do something that is just my way to increase my dopamine.

And whenever I do something pleasurable for the brain in a good way, such as, as I said,
doing something that I like to do,

I manually increasing the level of my dopamine and consequently after a week of doing
jigsaw puzzle, then I see my focus is increased in other things.

My attention is going to be increased in the other things rather than just jigsaw puzzle.

So this is the good thing about the brain, which if you work on it, if you help it, it
helps you.

Yeah, it's brilliant.

And I will double click on that piece for ADHD as well.

And what's beautiful is about those, those motivator stacks that work really well for us
as ADHD people.

So activating curiosity, know, lifelong learning or

or the transcendent emotional states.

So joy, chasing new and novel experiences.

mean, often these are looked at as the weaknesses of ADHD, but I think what's really cool
is when we double down on those and we understand the things that activate us, actually we

wanna do it.

So that's a motivating force within itself where sometimes that consistency and attention
can fall away.

So we wanna do it, which is great.

But what I'm hearing you share, Sheree, is that then...

that's then activating more dopamine and we're teaching our brain really how to behave.

So that brings me to my next question because one of the pushbacks I guess that I hear a
lot when it comes to healthy habit formation.

So let's take for example, someone's listening to this and says, yeah, you know what?

I don't have an excuse.

I really can fit half an hour a day in for my exercise and yet I'm not or insert whatever
other healthy habit it is.

So one of the things that we really struggle with as ADHD is that executive function
that's around consistency.

So consistency and putting things on repeat, that can be, I hear a lot of people describe
it as almost painful to do something that they have to do.

And I'm really curious to hear your cheats and your workarounds.

No, I know, like cleaning the room, it's boring, so I don't want to do it.

That's so boring.

So yeah, no, that's absolutely, absolutely true and happening.

And then there are actually ways to improve this situation.

So no, no, I understand this is a very important element and what I want to bring as an
additional before I start then going to the paths or the tools or strategies that we can

use, I just wanted to bring this important element of support.

So for people with ADHD, that different spectrum of ADHD, support is a really important
element.

If I can say maybe 50%, I'm not wrong.

So for any, even if you're living alone, that doesn't mean that you don't need any seeking
any support.

Support doesn't just mean in personal life, supporting personal life, professional life,
supporting support groups.

So support is a very important element because as important as the dopamine level inside
your brain and the way that you internally making it elevated is the other important

element is the pushing from the outside.

I don't want to call it pushing because

It sounds like forcing, but support, the way that people start sharing the things with
each other, that you feel you are not alone in this way, and there are people coming to

you and then they discuss this.

that different individual experiences could be really, really helpful because that person
could be your support person in giving you some advice and this person is the one who has

ADHD.

So who is better than this one?

No physician could be better than this one, I'm telling you.

So she can give you some practical advice that, you know what?

I think it's not boring.

Why don't you think it's not boring?

Because I do this, I do that.

she gives you some advice, you can give that person some advice about this.

So those supports are really important.

That's what I want to emphasize in that support element.

This is from the people, other people with ADHD.

So I really always encourage them to go to find those groups which have similarities with
them.

And then they can just exchange it.

The minimum thing is exchanging the experience.

This is the minimum thing.

And the minimum thing comes with a very outstanding concept, like outcomes.

The other support is from the families.

So if you have families and then you have to bring the knowledge to the family that this
is the situation, there is nothing wrong with that.

If you're in a workplace and actually that needs a bigger work on this, definitely.

to get busy on that one, I think.

Because that one is hopefully and luckily it's going to happen, but it needs some policy
development, some guideline development, some workplace changes and then some

understanding for the co -workers.

But these are the elements of the support.

But apart from those elements, when it comes to you personally, yes, and I know it is
going to be a little bit challenging at this stage, but for human...

kind, if I can call it in general, the way that we establish a habit for us is never easy.

Even for the person who is not having ADHD, establishing a pattern requires changing the
connections of the brains and making some new connections inside the brains.

As I explained before, so we have neurons and neurons always are in connection with each
other.

So if you want to develop a new habit and

improve it, you need to make those connections and then by the time you need to make those
connections stronger and stronger by repeating that particular behavior.

At the same time, you have to get rid of those connections which were made in your brain
and made you feel it's boring.

So the unwanted connections should be disappeared while you make new good connections
replacing those unwanted connections.

takes time and practice.

practice time and I can say discipline.

And it is going to be difficult.

And this is again because of that dopamine.

This is nothing personal or nothing like as I call it.

It is what it is.

It is exactly what it is.

is that radical self -acceptance and awareness of my brain is built differently, I'm gonna
need to wrap some accommodations and get creative around how I get gritty, 100%.

true.

The way that I suggest and it's working, well scientific research has shown that it's
working, is to always accompany that making new habit, cleaning your room for example,

with some pleasurable activities.

This is the way that you can increase dopamine.

If that activity, which sounds boring or not important or

you cannot focus on it for some reason.

If this is the one that you want focus on it, just accompany that one with something which
you like.

So again, as a person with ADHD, I don't like to clean my room because it sounds boring,
but I like doing something else.

For example, I like decorating the walls of my room with some particular pictures.

Although I

a whole bunch of ADHD people going, if I go to the picture decoration, that's going to be
a whole day long project and my room is going to be messy.

Ha

I'll give you couple of hacks that I've been able to find.

I think what you're referring to, and correct me if I'm wrong, is this is kind of like
habit stacking, right?

So create a habit that you already love to do that is already there.

And so when we're talking about habits, we're just talking about behaviors.

So take the hard out of the habit for a second.

So I think the type of example that would work for me would be, I've got to clean my room,
don't want to do it today, boring.

I could call a friend and give ourselves a half an hour call, because I love talking to my
friend and clean the room.

I could listen to a podcast.

I could listen to music.

I could create a competition for myself.

How quickly can I get all the socks into my sock drawer?

I think the interesting one, and I don't know what's going on in the brain, so I'd love
to, maybe we can do a bit of research and circle back on this, but the interesting one is

that task switching.

So if it's the cleaning the room, that's the boring thing.

And then something becomes all of a sudden interesting.

a sock drawer that needs to be really tidily organized and the ADHD is ability to go.

That's the most important thing to do right now.

Not that, that is fascinating.

Exactly.

That's a very good thing that you just said.

Bring your reward to yourself.

Just accompany this with some source of dopamine elevation.

And this is this is the way that you're helping your brain to always.

is the first time, second time, third time after maybe

couple of months practicing.

Now cleaning your room associates with some reward.

That means that cleaning your room, if I do it, I have dopamine release in my brain.

I have the pleasure of sense in my brain.

That is good.

So I will be more motivated to go to do those kinds of things.

know what I mean?

So always accompany this with something that's to surge the level of dopamine in your
brain.

I love this.

This is brilliant.

I've run a program for women who have just realized, just realized, just been diagnosed
with ADHD, often late in adulthood.

And so we go through all of these awesome tips and tricks.

And as I'm hearing you speak, I love now that we can bring this back to the neuroscience
and say, this is what's happening in the brain.

So one, there's that radical acceptance and awareness of what's actually happening.

And then two, getting creative around, you know, how you can...

really have it stack your environment.

The accountability piece, Being okay to ask for support, it's a big one.

And to your point in workplaces, we've got a lot of work to do around disclosure and what
that looks like and how we can support.

people, employers, employees, everybody coming together to understand strengths and
struggles and really make sure that we thrive.

On the other side of thriving, as we're coming, I know towards the end of our
conversation, there's a more serious side of brains when they start to really languish and

they start to really struggle and suffer.

And I work in the clinical psychology space and see how this presents with some of mental
illnesses like depression, like anxiety.

And we're not gonna get too clinical today, but

One of the topics that's being talked about, and I know you're really passionate about in
giving people preventative support structures is around the idea of resilience, of stress

training, but also buffering against burnout.

What's going on in the brain when somebody experiences burnout?

And I'm not talking like, I don't really want to go to work today.

I think I'll just have an audio, a rostrum day off.

I'm talking about

those physical nervous system responses, where there's that sense of cynicism and lack of
motivation and a desire to withdraw.

One, what is burnout?

Two, why is our neurodivergent population so vulnerable to it?

And three, what can we do to prevent it?

Because treatment's a whole other conversation that I think we need to have a podcast for.

What would be your insights around this important conversation to start with?

Sure, no, that's a very important aspect.

It's just, as you said, it's just for the entire population, but also basically important
when we discuss ADHD people.

And the reason is, for example, where it usually happens when we are overwhelmed with the
responsibilities and we are under some pressures of doing something.

One of the important thing is making decisions to do something.

That decision could be at lower level, not that leadership or management, even that's

Like as a normal employee going to work, have to finish some job.

have to make some decisions about these ones.

And I'm talking just about working environment, also in personal life that could happen
too.

So I have under pressure of either time pressure or either work pressure or workload
pressure to focus on something and to finish it something and to do some responsibility.

I need to make some decisions.

I need to make some plans to do it a step by step.

And sometimes it is going to be so much for one person.

We are all human.

We have to be flexible because you know, that's the brain.

The brain is flexible.

We have to be flexible.

The work environment should be flexible.

That's important.

But when we are not considering those elements and just stick to those expectations, some
people, may just find themselves under the pressure of planning, making decision, being

focused.

so much and then they cannot do that one when burnout actually happens.

For people with ADHD actually it's going to be to another level because now it comes to
the a little bit of a lower level of dopamine and rather than everything that we discussed

before and then you have this situation that you need to do the like for example a leader
with ADHD everybody expect that person to make big decisions like plan for the entire

group

do this, do that, and then the person is under so much pressure with that high level of
responsibilities.

He is very smart, he can do that, but it's smartness doesn't have to do anything with that
decision making in time.

Smartness is the way that the brain works based on the experiences, bring the experiences
and bring the abilities that is learned and combine it and make a decision.

Now, to make that decision, now it goes to the other step, which is the dopamine thing.

And because of the

lack of dopamine or less level of dopamine, not decision making is a challenge.

At higher level, it's going to show itself in a bigger scale.

So the person is facing lots of huge responsibilities with lots of expectations in that
particular amount of time, and that's causing the burnout.

If we don't understand that situation in workplace, it's going to be really damaging to
the leader and consequently to the lower levels, which are under the supervision of that

leader.

So

That's why it's important to work on it because that's usually there is no positive
outcome from burnout.

gosh, there's not.

And the amount of time, the clinical care, having had the privilege to be alongside people
who have experienced real burnout.

And I would say I have to an extent, but not to the point where I've been out of work
because of burnout for a pretty time.

It can impact people for six to 12, 18 months of a recovery.

And I wanna circle back to something that you shared earlier, because some, know, some
patterns are clicking over for me.

I think the, we're gonna get into quickly talking about some preventative measures.

Remembering again that norepinephrine role, so the filtering system for neurodivergent
people.

So if you've got the cognitive load of tasks compounding over time, remembering that part
of the executive function difference for ADHD is sometimes impacting time perception.

So there can be time optimism of how much we can achieve in a day, particularly if you've
then got personality stacked on top of that, right?

Where you're either wanting to people please or where you're a high achiever.

But if you've constantly got that environmental bombardment where your filtering system is
therefore impacted, so you're norepinephrine, and your dopamine start to play in not so

helpful ways, your serotonin is gonna take a dive.

This is where that intricate dance it's really complicated.

We have to respect and honor our brains to look after them.

So tell us what can we do, because caring for burnout is a whole other conversation.

What can we do to go, okay, this is a real vulnerability.

How can I take my brain and my body, my nervous system seriously to show up and continue
performing and mitigate against the risk of stress and burnout?

What would be some tips?

And that's a good question.

You know, this is all a start with overwhelming the person with lots of things and the
things that a person actually wants to do it.

Even if we don't

have that abilities or that time or whatever to finalize that task, we push ourselves over
the limit to just do it somehow.

And that comes with overwhelming with all of those challenges and then burnout is the
consequence.

We are not getting any good outcome at the end of the day.

So there are some works that we can do, that should be done from the upper levels.

as I said, like

policy, advocacy, different things.

Exactly.

So this is actually very good because this conversation is happening at the moment, but
back to maybe 50 years ago, actually working hard and pushing over a limit was considered

as a very good bonus for a person.

in a work environment, we should work on it as people who are advocate for the mental
health.

And then we can bring it to the idea of people who are making some regulations around the
work.

This should be limited, this should be considered, the ADHD situation should be considered
at work.

But personally, if you wanna do something, my suggestion and also the scientific,

Results the scientific study showed that you have to start always with a small never
assault with big when you start with a small and a strong working one by one one at a time

that makes it better the people with ADHD as I said like because of those situations they
have a little bit of difficulties in planning and in making decision for future or

planning so What is planning planning is when I'm here.

I think of ten steps ahead.

That is planning

And for a person who is having ADHD, is really difficult to figure it out, right?

So this is the thing that could happen and help the person to work one at a time.

So while you have the plan and the plan has been given to you by your manager or whoever
at workplace, have to keep that plan, but don't think about 10 steps ahead.

Just work on the first step.

That actually takes the pressure out of your shoulder hugely.

When you just focus on one step at a time.

When that is finalized, go to the second step.

This way, that is actually shown that you can eventually get to that final result without
stressing yourself so much because then your brain is just focused on one thing at a time.

That solves the focus problem, that solves the planning problem, that solves making the
decision for 10 steps ahead problem.

Of course it is practicing because this is the way, this is the job of our brain to always
think about future.

What if happens?

What if happens?

What if, so this is like, this this needs practicing again.

When you want to next time, when it comes to your mind that you start thinking about the
end time, the due date, thinking about the entire project, pause yourself.

That is, that is practicing.

Pause yourself and think about it.

Okay.

Is it ten instead?

I forget about the other nine step.

just do this one.

Exactly.

It's starting to fall, break it down.

And with each step that you finish tap on your shoulder.

Well done.

I did it good.

You reward yourself with dopamine.

Yeah, reinforcement dopamine increase.

And then go to the next step, finalize it, finish it, your shoulder.

So this way you help yourself to just go to the next step by increasing dopamine and by
minimizing the distraction and

helping yourself to focus on small, small things.

So that's gonna help.

I love that executive aspect.

I'd add to that as well.

think this is where knowing your unique brain and how it shows up in the world,
particularly if you have a brain -based difference like ADHD is just so important because

for different people, then different parts of their executive functions are impacted.

So I know for myself, nonverbal working memory is really poor for me.

I have to take photos of everything I do and everywhere I go.

And so that idea of thinking forward into the future is something that I used to say
before I treated my ADHD, I am time blind.

I don't have a sense of the future.

And so when I know that about my brain, then I put an accommodation in place.

I have somebody who helps to keep accountable, like, okay, great, I can break it down into
those one out of 10 steps, and I just want to focus on one step.

but I need somebody or a system.

Lately I've been using technology and chat GPT, which is again, there's a whole other
podcast to help me say, okay, but we only need to spend one hour on this task, Maz,

because then we've got all of the others.

So just focus on this task for the one hour.

And then there's a bell going to go off or somebody's going to come in and tell me.

So those checkpoints, the accountability aspect, the chunking it down, they're great
executive tasks.

I would be so disappointed to get off this call though without asking you about nervous
system care.

So we know that yes, we've got those cognitive functions for the executive brain to be
able to break down chunks, chunk things into pieces, time management.

What about our bodies in terms of stress?

What's going on and how can we get ourselves into a good line?

I know in science we'd call that homeostasis, but that balanced part of the brain and body
where we feel like we're calm, we're connected, we're curious, everything's switched on.

can we exercise as one?

We've talked about that.

What are some other practices that you recommend?

That's a very good question and just bring it back to your first question about
neurotransmitters and chemicals.

I just want to bring another hero in this, which is usually called as a bad guy, but this
is not a bad guy.

He is just another hormone, neurotransmitter.

It's called cortisol.

So cortisol is a hormone that we have in our body and it is called a stress hormone, but
maybe it has a bad reputation, poor thing, but it is actually

It's very important we cannot live without it at all.

So cortisol is called a stress hormone because it's it's being released during a stress
situation.

When we need to react to some particular unknown situation which came to our environment
suddenly.

For example, if you wanted to run after a bus to get to a job, to an appointment or
something, the cortisol levels getting up a little bit.

to make your body ready for that stressful situation.

And this is actually normal and it's actually helpful because without that, you cannot run
after the bus, you cannot catch the bus and you will be possibly late for your

appointment.

So this is a good thing, but the stress thing which is called the chronic stress and the
stress that we don't want to have in our life is when we have that cortisol level up all

the time.

Some people at workplace, if something happens and makes them stressful a little bit, they
keep repeating it in their brains.

That's why the stress system, the lower system is always on in their brain.

And they're going through the stress situation, chronic stress, which is not good.

It could affect your physical health, heart attack, stroke, different things.

could affect your mental situation and anxiety, long -term depression, different things.

and it's not good in any aspect, chronic stress.

So how could you manage it?

The best way to manage stress in work situation is to awareness.

I start always with awareness.

Stress situations, when they cause us discomfort, if I can say in a word, the discomfort
starts with a bad feeling.

When you have a bad feeling about something, and for example, you see some reactions in
the workplace and that starts making you annoyed,

You have this discomfort, right?

So next time that that happens in your life, family life, personal life, you need to be
aware of it.

My awareness is you need to be, you need to observe your feeling and that's the awareness.

When it happens to you, stress happens to you, you feel so anxious, you start again
talking about the event that happened 10 years ago.

You need to pause for a second.

Pause it and then observe your thought.

Observe the thing that caused you stress at work, at family relationship, at everywhere.

Something that caused you stress, observe it.

What is this?

Is it a fact or is it a fiction?

Is it the thing that is happening now or is it the thing that happened 10 years ago?

Is it the my assumption from the behavior of my supervisor which annoys me or is it
actually the fact?

Because most of the time the thing that causes us stress is our assumption.

Hmm.

perspective from that situation, which is not actually real.

This is the, the recipe for a stress management.

can say not even a stress management, pause it, watch it.

What is happening now?

Is it right?

Is it actually happening?

Am I true?

Is it?

Just my assumption.

If it is your assumption, just forget about it.

If it is real, which I guarantee it wouldn't be more than 5%.

95 % is your assumption.

95 % is in the past.

95 % never gonna happen in your life.

Just you have, you actually simply remove that 95 % from your life.

You have lots of room for that.

Only 5%.

Gives the brain the cortex.

Huge ability to be focused on what it actually needs to do, right?

Again.

Yeah.

if you don't control your feeling, you cannot control your reaction.

And that will add to that vicious cycle of, you know, an anxiety.

And I'm thinking of some, sometimes what you do in that pause matters as well.

So for those of us who've got those super racy brains that I can hear saying, but my brain
will not pause.

Okay.

So turn to your body.

You know, what can you do to be able to create some space?

Can you take three deep breaths?

Can you notice what's around you?

Can you change your environment?

Can you listen to some music?

Can you talk to a friend?

Sometimes it's changing the behavior as opposed to trying to work just on the thought.

that can give us that opportunity to have the space that I'm hearing you talk to that is
there's so much in that.

Thank you, Sheree.

my gosh, you've been so generous with your wisdom and your knowledge.

Have you got time for some quick fire round questions?

what comes to your mind when you think of the words?

impact mindset, somebody with an impact mindset, what qualities might they have.

I come to my most growth.

Beautiful.

Inclusive Impact?

the girls again.

Love that.

The big question is for you, what does it mean to live a meaningful life?

I really love to help people.

I love human, I love people.

I I go outside and I see one person is eating ice cream.

It's such a pleasure.

I say, this is so nice.

This is something I think good with me that I go outside and I see people like I see
people's face and I admire them.

That's such an amazing creation of the universe.

And that's why I really want to help them with any challenges that they're facing, if I
can, if I can do it, it's my expertise, the level of expertise.

So I really want to help them.

And I think that is at the end of the day, that is the meaning of your life.

I know that we all have our families, we love our families and we think, okay, at the end
of the work, I come back to my family and that's actually a very big part.

We spend another at least one third of our lives with the other people who are not our
families.

When you're in one room with one person, you both breathe the same air.

That means that you are breathing the air that she or he breathed before.

and then you are bringing into your body, that will be the molecules, literally will go to
be a part of your body.

That is how closely connected we human to each other.

You know what I mean?

So if I can do something for that person, or sometimes when I'm in a bus, I sit all into,
or in an airplane, you see, we are in one thing.

What happens to one person here will happen to me.

So we are so connected.

You know what I mean?

So that is really good feeling.

And then,

Why should I forget about it and ignore it when I'm out of the bus, out of the airplane,
when I'm out of the room?

That person is now a little bit a part of me.

I'm a part of him.

If I can help him, if there is a situation that that person needs my anything that I have
in my mind as a human, why shouldn't I bring it to him?

Makes his life easier.

If I have gone through bad experiences, I won't let him or her to go through that bad
experience.

What's wrong with it?

Imagine if people can do this to each other.

That's a big help, you know, that is actually improving everybody's life and then I will
enjoy my family life even more.

So, and the other eight hours I will be in the sleep, so that's all.

Dr.

Shohreh, I think even in your sleep, you're having a positive impact on the world with
your gorgeous heart.

Honestly, if I could bottle you and sprinkle your magic over the world, I just would.

Thank you for gifting us so much time, so much wisdom, so much of, I mean, you just ooze
optimism and positivity and hope for this planet.

So I'm just so very grateful for you.

Thank you so much.

that you've shared today.

And for our listeners, thank you for listening in.

And thanks again for your interest in inclusive impact.

We'll see you next time.