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An 11-week podcast designed as a companion resource to the Core Series at Chapel Pointe Church. Through deep theological conversations with pastors from our church, our goal is to help you build a deeper understanding of the core truths of Christianity and apply them to your life. From the Bible and Jesus to salvation and the church, our prayer is that you don't just grow in knowledge but that you gain a deeper appreciation for the love, grace, and movement of God in your life. For more resources, visit chapel-pointe.org/core-series.
Well, hey. Thanks for joining us for the Core Podcast. We are almost at the end of this podcast series, which is kinda crazy to think about, but it's been a lot of fun to, try to answer some of these questions and take a a little bit, deeper dive off Sunday. And in particular, that's what today's episode is. Hopefully, we can, dive in a little bit to the deeper end because, we get to talk about angels and demons.
Luke Bilberry:And so excited to have Drew Voss, who helps lead our student ministry. I believe the official title is student ministry director. So helping out all of our college students, our high school students, and our middle school students. So if you have, if you're a parent, grandparent, if you have questions about the next generation and how to lead and to serve them, Drew's your man and would love to come alongside you to help you navigate conversations and leading kids and students to fall after Jesus. So thanks for the work you're
Tyler Perrott:doing right here, man. Amen.
Luke Bilberry:And as always, my favorite, Tyler Perry, our discipleship pastor. This is a fun conversation today.
Tyler Perrott:This is gonna be great. This is gonna be a good time
Luke Bilberry:wherever we go with it. Wherever it goes. And I want to be clear about a couple of things. One, because some of you who listen in on Sunday's sermon, if you haven't, make sure you go back and check it out. Pastor Jim, one of our pastors, he opened the conversation, but he probably didn't answer a lot of people's questions that when they began to think about angels and demons as we move pretty quick.
Luke Bilberry:And I just wanna just maybe frame this a little bit for us. When we teach and when we preach on Sunday morning that we're preaching to a number of different folks with a number of different experiences. And one of the questions that we're often asking is simply this, how are we helping people to passionately respond to God, and are we equipping them to live the life that God had called them to? So that's one of the filtration questions that we're asking as we're preparing a message in order to preach. And I love actually what pastor Jim did.
Luke Bilberry:He looked at where we see angels and where we see demons in the scriptures and he basically pulled it into five lessons that we learn in order for us to live and passion respond. And so he looked at the life of angels and he looked at their job and and how they respond in the scriptures, and he answered it. And so I don't know, what were some of the takeaways from you guys as you were listening to the message from from those five lessons? What did you experience on your end? Because at the end of the day, that's our hope and our prayer.
Luke Bilberry:It may not answer all of your questions, but maybe we'll try to answer some of those in these next few moments. But first and foremost, what did you guys hear and learn from this Sunday's message?
Tyler Perrott:Yeah. I would say I'd say the number one thing I I loved about this because whenever you have such a broad topic of angels and demons, you can go so many different directions. But I love how Pastor Jim worked and challenged us to really think through their life, like the way that they are living and calling us into accord with that. And especially just the aspect, even just in my own nature, of thinking through like worshiping God's glory. Like that aspect of being invited into that, that part of why we exist, why we come every single Sunday.
Tyler Perrott:But actually, our whole entire lives, their purpose is this call to worship God. And to be reminded of, oh, all that God has created is designed to be worshiping And so I think to be able to step back and go, that's true for me, but it's also true for angels as well. That we are both invited to see God for who he truly is and to worship him and to know that we are not the only ones that God has created that's also doing that.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. No, that's beautiful.
Tyler Perrott:What about you?
Drew Voss:Yeah, think of even understanding what does it mean for an angel, why are they called angels? They're messengers. And I think one of the things he called to at the end of the message I heard during the 8AM service was, hey, how are we joining in that work of telling others what God has shared with us? How are we being active in being messengers of the gospel, what God is doing in our hearts, and how he is transforming us from the inside out.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And that reminder again, like for me, is kind of what you said, Tyler, is everything's created with purpose. So the universe, the cosmos, everything is created with purpose. Right? Psalm 19, the stars proclaim his handiwork, right, and his majesty.
Luke Bilberry:Jesus tells us, man, if if people aren't gonna worship him, even the rocks are gonna cry out. And so then you get passages like Isaiah six that that pastor Jim read on Sunday and there there's literally his whole purpose and design is to say, holy holy holy is the Lord God Almighty. For all eternity, there's this resounding song that's being declared these truths, right, that this is who God is, he's holy, he's set apart and there is no other. And I just think about that even for us that we are created with purpose. And then you get to Ephesians two.
Luke Bilberry:Right? His workmanship created beforehand. So it all works together and that's one of, again, the reasons when we talk about our theology and our core doctrines, they all build on one another. And then so we're moving into the space where there may be some distinctives or there may be more questions or there may be more gray areas as we talk about angels and demons and as we step into next week's sermon on prophecy and and looking towards, you know, the last things eschatology. And what we wanna get back to is always what the scriptures say, and we see that purpose and that design in here.
Luke Bilberry:And so let's kind of let's to have a little fun here then, fellas, and say, what are some of the questions that whenever you think about angels and demons, what are some of the questions that you think our church family, what are some of the questions they're asking? Let's begin to just kinda wrestle those around. So Tyler, what what when you think about Angels Demons, what's some of, like, the first questions that people ask you?
Tyler Perrott:So let's start with a softball. I'll start with t ball. We'll actually go with t ball, and then we'll go up from there. But I think even pastor Jim
Luke Bilberry:Is this slow pitch softball? Because
Tyler Perrott:I
Luke Bilberry:get It's slow.
Tyler Perrott:This is slow pitch. And so But I do think that there's an important thing that I don't want us to maybe miss at the very beginning of this is that angels are not dead humans. Like, I think that there is this uniqueness that I don't know how many times I've been to maybe funerals or people are talking about loved ones, oh, they they've gotten their wings down. And this kind of inference to be able to go, oh, we have to be mindful of recognizing kind of the character nature of who angels are. Mhmm.
Tyler Perrott:And I think that that's just a huge aspect of, I think, what do people need to know on the base level Yeah. Is that there is a distinctive difference
Luke Bilberry:Yeah.
Tyler Perrott:Between angels and humans. And I think that's just a valuable thing that we have to help our people recognize is even on that base level function. Yes, both created by God Mhmm. But created very differently and for very different purposes. Right.
Tyler Perrott:And I think that if we miss that, and I think in our common culture, those are things that are are that if you were to ask the average person, they don't have a clear distinction between humans and angels. I think that they they just think that angels are often dead humans. I think that's a thing that we need to be mindful of to get, well, that's actually very untrue biblically.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. Yeah. That they're created. So you get like Psalm forty eight two through five kinda begins to paint this picture, right, that this is they're created spirits. They're they're they're these different beings and we see them actually have specific names in the Old Testament.
Luke Bilberry:Right? You know, Seraphim and things like that where the where the angels are named as unique in function, form, and identity. Maybe that maybe that's not the best use of that word, but they have different different purposes. What are some questions that you're seeing, like, when you think about kids and middle schoolers and things like that that what are questions that they're asking when it comes to to angels and demons and things like that?
Drew Voss:Yeah. Well, there's always the good ones, right? Like, is my dog going to heaven? Does my dog turn into an angel? I think to sum up three or four questions, what I see is a lot of fear attached to anything that has to do with the spiritual realm.
Drew Voss:So there's whole lot of, I think, anxious thoughts that are kind of built into, or even you think of some of these shows that are being watched, and there's this background thought of, I should fear this. And my heart is in what we see in the text is, oh my goodness. God's love is so great and so powerful. What he has done to not let anything separate us from that for those of us who are in Christ is we don't have to fear any power, any ruler. And so along with that, it has to do with a lot
Tyler Perrott:of the
Drew Voss:demonic oppression and possession, a lot of those questions, and then just with a response that is both, man, when we look at the scriptures, when we understand who God is, his power, we don't have anything to fear. There's the initial response of fear we see in the Bible when people interact with angels and they're like, oh my goodness, like, know, fear not, you know? But there is, yeah, I think in so many ways just wanting to answer and affirm to those students and even to us adults, right, that when we are found in Christ's love, we don't need to fear any power. Even though, yes, they are greater than us and they carry a certain level of authority, I think, within powers that we don't. Right?
Drew Voss:Yep. Mhmm. We have nothing to fear.
Luke Bilberry:Right. That's good. And and Tyler, when you think about this, I love what you're saying, Drew, because it's beginning to frame, I think, where the conversation is gonna go. But when you think about angels and demons, what are some of those the places that we know from scripture when you think about that, Tyler? What are some places that we know and can say, hey, this is where we get this idea from?
Luke Bilberry:Because we can have culture, can give this, like, spiritual, like, fear based framework for us or it's too it's bigger than I can comprehend, so I'm not even gonna think about it. It's almost like we can begin to do one of two things. We can over spiritualize or we can overthink about this the spiritual realm, or we cannot think about it at all. And it reminds me again that that quote where he's quoting from the Screwtape Letters.
Tyler Perrott:Right?
Luke Bilberry:That was When the Screwtape Letters, pastor Jim used that this past Sunday, he says that's the thing. I can either I can distract them by thinking too much about it or I can distract them by not thinking about it at a spiritual world at all. And in doing so, when you pick one side, we end up missing the reality that's in front of us. And that feels like probably a true statement for most things in our lives. And when we go to one extreme or the other, we're probably missing something in the middle that we should be keying in on.
Luke Bilberry:But what are some of the scripture frameworks that we understand, like, where angels come from, they're created, their purpose? I'd love for you to just kinda throw a few of those out for us.
Tyler Perrott:Yeah. So, I mean, I think some of those natural pieces, I think you already hit on one about Psalm one forty eight, that they were angels that were created by God. I think you can go to Colossians one that all things were created through Christ, and so that includes thrones, dominions, rulers, authorities. So everything was created underneath Christ. So we begin to recognize that whenever we think about angels and demons that they are underneath the authority of Christ.
Tyler Perrott:That he is ruling and reigning over all of that. That there's an aspect of that that we get to see in Hebrews, this kind of invitation that you see of essentially angels ministering to people. But also all throughout Jesus' ministry, it is marked by angels and demons both. Mean, think of even the announcement of his birth to what did Jesus do all throughout? He was ministering to people who were possessed by demons to And they were often fear and trembling to go, hey, the demons would respond to say, is it our time?
Tyler Perrott:Has it come? Like, those are aspects that we get to see.
Luke Bilberry:We have eyewitness accounts of Jesus having these conversations with demonic. Like, who are you to do this? You know? And he rebukes them
Tyler Perrott:for people. Right? The the the unique aspect of it is that and I mean, obviously, it's all the authority and power in Jesus. He's not shocked that they're there. Like, he doesn't have this posture of going,
Luke Bilberry:what are
Tyler Perrott:you doing here? Who are you? Like
Luke Bilberry:He's not caught off guard.
Tyler Perrott:He's not caught off guard that that these things exist, that he recognizes that he has, I guess what I just called this, a supernatural biblical worldview. That it's his aspect to recognize, yes, that we live in this world, but there's also a supernatural reality of which we exist. And we have to be mindful of that being true and to recognize. But that also I think frames essentially the work of Christ that it was both what Christ has done for us individually, but also it is that ruling and reign that Christ has over everything. That he has all That we have to be mindful of that whenever we, and I think that's where that fear comes from aspect is that whenever sometimes we maybe over limit, and you can push back on this, maybe we over limit what Christ has done, on the cross to just our sin and not to recognize the power and authority of by which what Christ has done on the cross has done in essentially the cosmos.
Tyler Perrott:Like, that there is this eternality aspect of the cross, that the cross stands outside of time and that there's this vastness and bigness to the love of God and what the cross signifies, that if we that if we shrink it too much just being about ourselves, we miss the power and authority that it holds in all of eternity.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. I love what you said. Like, there's a supernatural reality. I think that's like a question. Like, if I have Harper sitting around at coffee, is what do you think, like, about your worldview?
Luke Bilberry:Is it a supernatural worldview, or is it a natural worldview? Or is it, you know, all supernatural? You know, like the like the that's almost what narcissism, right, that they're kinda battling in this conversation of, like, what is the real thing and in the schools of philosophy they wrestle around, you know, the physicality and the spiritual, this this tension that people are wrestling with. So I love that you're calling us to there is a supernatural reality and and they go hand in hand because that's who Jesus is. Right?
Luke Bilberry:That Jesus though fully God, fully spiritual, fully supernatural also took on flesh. And so there there's something that's beautiful and if he is the, you know, the the new image of what new humanity looks like for us, there's something really powerful about how can we live in both of those worlds.
Tyler Perrott:Those worlds we mix together. And I think too, I think we just have to maybe recognize, and I was talking with Ramsey about this beforehand, is this aspect of like in our western world, we default to the natural. But if you go to other places of the world, their gonna natural default setting is going to be supernatural. Yeah. They're going to start with that assumption and then rule out supernatural into the natural where we're gonna do everything we can to go, oh, there's a naturalistic reason or I can Google this, YouTube it, AI bought it and figure out the solution.
Tyler Perrott:And if that's not it, well then maybe it's something beyond. Right. And I think that that's where some of that kind of ties in is recognizing that maybe there's a limitation of balance that we need to bring back into our perspective of how we live our lives and to recognize.
Luke Bilberry:So it it kind of leads me to, and you guys can can wrestle around this, but so we think about angels and that's kind of on the underneath this authority of God, then talk to me about demons. Where where did these these creatures come from? What is their purpose? What is and maybe even down to this, why would God even allow something that seems so horrible that Jesus spends a significant amount of time? I I don't know.
Luke Bilberry:Maybe Ramzi or Brian, like, the number of times that Jesus actually has a demonic encounter, if you can give me some of the, like, an idea. Because it does seem like throughout the gospel account, these eyewitness accounts following Jesus, there's a significant number where where he's having to bring healing and freedom and rebuking demons. So talk to me about what's going on there, fellas.
Drew Voss:Yeah. I mean, I think it's very important to realize, especially within our culture and context, demons are real. Right? And that even throughout Jesus' ministry, like, one of the things he does is to bring back freedom to those who are oppressed or possessed by demons. Right.
Drew Voss:And so I think it's important just to note that, yes, demons are real. There's a there's a power they have that, quite frankly, we don't within our limited material beings. But with that said, and as a reminder, we don't have to fear demons. Right. And those of us who are in Christ, it is illogical to approach any conversations about demons and not recognizing the power of God, right?
Tyler Perrott:So there's this kind of
Drew Voss:this, I think, this piece that I get within understanding who God is, what he's done, and then it takes all the fear based stuff that wants to influence my thinking and puts it to rest. With that said, we know, I think a great way to summarize demons, of course, is what Jesus says about an unclean spirit. That they are kind of in some degree the spiritual being that is unclean. Simple way to think about it is disobedience, right? Disobedience to God's will, the design He has set for them, and they said, We're gonna do what we want to do.
Drew Voss:And we see a couple Bible passages where we're following these kings and rulers who are evil, and I think we get like a little bit of an insight to what's going on in the spiritual realm when we see, man, the devil, and Romans 12 talks about this too, he chose from his own pride to disobey God's plan desire and choose his own way, to live after, to seek after his own glory. And then with that, he takes these spirits, spiritual beings with him and they follow after Satan's way, the great deceiver, the great accuser, right? So I think there's a great way to kinda start and jump into the conversation, but I'd love to hear a little bit from them.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And those, like, passages you mentioned, that's Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. So if you wanna do some more reading about kind of these kings, but it looks like they're giving us more of a picture of of Satan who is a fallen angel as well. And so that kinda leads me to I don't know, Todd, if you wanna jump in on me that before I kind of ask. No.
Luke Bilberry:Go ahead. Yeah. So part of me was thinking, we can look at Satan and God. Are they equally matched? Right?
Luke Bilberry:Is is this I think one of the things that we can think about because it can lead to that fear based culture. I think we see this often in our movies and our stories and what what has shaped our understanding of even even I think about screw tape letters has probably shaped more evangelical thinking about angels and demons than maybe even the scriptures has. And I think it's a great I hear me say, I think it's a it's a book worth reading and then it asks a lot of questions, but it's also not the Bible. Yeah. But so we can look at our understanding, we can look at God the father, God is, you know, light and the enemy is dark.
Luke Bilberry:Are they equal forces? Like, talk to me about that.
Tyler Perrott:Yeah. I mean, I think I think the biblical answer, Luke, is no. They're not equal.
Luke Bilberry:I love that Brian
Tyler Perrott:in the back just smiled.
Luke Bilberry:He's like, bro, just throw that question right So at
Tyler Perrott:well, but I think and again, maybe help me flesh this out a little bit, but I'm gonna I'm just gonna run a thought idea, but I want you guys to sharpen it here on some level is what I've been thinking through, Satan is often called the god of this world. Mhmm. Right? So there's this aspect by which Satan himself, and that's a little g god, but Satan himself desired to be God. And ultimately, what I think that there's this level of what you're seeing is that Satan desired to be God, got essentially cast out of heaven Mhmm.
Tyler Perrott:Into this world and is ultimately going to be triumphed over by humanity by the finished work of what Christ has done. So there's this level that Satan That there is this battle, but there was not a fair battle at all. It was And Satan got cast down, and essentially, there's this aspect of going, you think that you have authority, and you think you have any measure of power, but what I'm gonna do throughout the work of humanity, through the work of what Christ is going to do, the promised one, is I'm actually going to entirely disarm and dethrone you from anything at all. That's what God is going to do to the work of Satan. And I think that's even where it lands in in, essentially, Colossians two.
Tyler Perrott:It says, and having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. That we recognize that Satan and his fallen angels were trying to create a rule and a kingdom and essentially they are being unmatched even by the work of humanity through what Christ has done. And I think that's just a unique aspect to be able to see how that there it is not only is it unfair, Satan is slowly being unworked up even being a ruler of this world through what Christ is doing. God does not forfeit any of his creations.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. That's our I love that. We have pastor Brian in the peanut gallery. What you got, buddy?
Tyler Perrott:Hey. So consider the beginning of Job. Job chapter one. It tells us, there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, from where have you come?
Tyler Perrott:And I'll just read this in a specific tone.
Brian Ball:It says, Satan answered the
Tyler Perrott:Lord and said, oh, you know,
Brian Ball:from going to and fro on the earth and from walking up and down on it. And he then the the narrative continues and he says, and the Lord basically brags on Job, hey, look at Job and how what a great servant he is. And Satan says, well, yeah, because you've protected him. And so there's a reality to God is to the question, is God more powerful or are they equal? He couldn't touch Job as long as God protected him.
Brian Ball:Right. Mhmm. But the minute God said, oh, yeah, you
Tyler Perrott:can test him if you
Brian Ball:want, then now all these calamities can happen. And if you actually read what happens to Job and his property, it says that there was a messenger that came to Job and said the oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them. And it goes on and talks about all these terrible things that have happened. And it's and it often appears they call it the fire of God fell from heaven. Well, we know that's not God didn't destroy all of Job's possessions.
Brian Ball:Satan did. So there's a reality too. You have to also be able to discern what am I watching right now. Am I watching God's spirit at work or am I watching demonic activity at work? And how do you discern the difference between the two?
Brian Ball:Because if it's destruction and calamity, it's probably demonic activity. And if it's building people up and advancing the kingdom, then it's probably not that.
Luke Bilberry:Right. Yeah. And the the I'm gonna lean into a question just a little bit kinda without one, Brian, the idea, you know, the destruction and calamities of the enemy and then, you know, blessing is is from the Lord and things like that. And I love what you guys thanks for your help earlier. There's seven demonic encounters that Jesus has.
Luke Bilberry:So, obviously, this is a real thing and a real conversation that that's happening. I think one thing I just wanna, like, kind of draw out is why would then God allow that. Right? Right? Isn't this a question that you just got Yeah.
Luke Bilberry:Asked that with by a middle schooler?
Drew Voss:Oh, yeah. Yeah. So this was just this Sunday night too. I did something that other other people tell me not not to do. Right?
Drew Voss:Like, so so, hey, should I have a q and a after we talk about angels and demons at a youth ministry Sunday night? Right? And so most people would say no. And I'm like,
Tyler Perrott:let's do it. Questions. Let's go. And one of the
Drew Voss:questions, seventh grade guy and and here's what I'd like to say just about our junior high received. They are thinking deeply about stuff. I feel like sometimes as adults we have this predisposition to be like, are they thinking deeply? Yes, they are. One of the questions we got when opening up this, hey, what what do you what honest questions do you have about spiritual realm and being?
Drew Voss:And this young man says, well, if God is more powerful, why doesn't he just kind of Thanos snap Satan out of existence? Right? Great question.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. Right?
Drew Voss:And we were dealing about, man, the problem of evil and how a good God can allow this chaos, this evil, this destruction.
Luke Bilberry:Those things like Job that Brian was just reading about. Right? Right. Yeah. So how'd you answer?
Tyler Perrott:He's just like, great question. A great question. What'd you say?
Drew Voss:I gave just him Brian Ball's email, I said, go talk to Brian.
Tyler Perrott:He'll read the book of Job to you.
Drew Voss:No. It was a great question, and I tried to help them both ask questions that were thoughtful, and they said, well, hey, what happens if we know the Bible says that we are evil? What happens if God were to not give us an option to choose him? Do you think that would kind of follow after what we know that love is? And we know that love is not a feeling.
Drew Voss:We know that love is not something that we create or we outline it for, but love is created by God and how it's based off of a covenant, a decision, a choice. Right? And so we take that even within our own context of being human, to say we love God is to decide. There's a part of the commitment mess there. There's a selflessness.
Drew Voss:We're using our brain. We're using what God has given us to say, oh yeah, I love the Lord.
Tyler Perrott:Well,
Drew Voss:it's not too far of a stretch to say that heavenly beings also have that option. Right. And this is a little bit different than some of the conversations we get within sovereignty and free will, right? We're not diving into that, but I think there is a reality to, yeah, that angelic beings, they had a choice, right, to live as they were designed to obey God. We think of Michael, we think of Gabriel, or we think of Lucifer.
Drew Voss:To choose to disobey, to live outside of God's design, his will. And so there is both a calling back to, man, I'm so glad that God, right, doesn't just see my evil and say, you're done, but he provides for me. And this is where it's different, right? And this is where I feel like Pastor Jim did a great job at outlining what's different between us and angels. We have been given redemption through Jesus.
Drew Voss:Right? Like, is powerful. That is why we always talk about the gospel. And we're quick to remind ourselves, oh, yeah, this is something that is a mystery. Right?
Drew Voss:Even the angels see a repentant sinner and there is a celebration going on there. Right?
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, that's exactly right.
Drew Voss:So really powerful stuff and pointing back to, man, well, how do we see sin play out within our experience, right, and what we know the Scriptures tell us? And what does God do within that? Well, God redeems. And I also think of why doesn't God just take it away? Well, first of all, he is going to.
Drew Voss:That's part of the plan. Read the book of Revelation. There is coming a time, but in between that, we as humans, I think, get to see two different lives play out. Like a life, Jeremiah 17, that's going to trust, abide, it's gonna say, I love God. Or am I gonna follow after Satan's path?
Tyler Perrott:Right. And I love this passage out of Luke 22. It's one of my favorite ones. So this is Jesus speaking to Simon Peter, and he says, Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. And there's this moment where I go, man, if I'm Peter in that moment, I'm going and you told him no, right?
Tyler Perrott:Like, said no. You said Why
Luke Bilberry:are you even on his radar? Yeah.
Tyler Perrott:Like, he said, that's not gonna happen. But that's not how Jesus answers. He says, but I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers. Wow.
Tyler Perrott:That part of the hope is is that what He did not say, and I told him no, so you're okay now.
Luke Bilberry:Right.
Tyler Perrott:He said, no, have prayed for you that your faith will be strong enough to withstand when Satan comes to sift you like wheat. Yeah. And that's, I think, that power, that authority that our faith in Jesus Christ affords us whenever we think about this. That's why we can't live in fear is because of who our faith is in. And I think we have to be mindful and reminded that anytime we're approaching these conversations of evil and brokenness and essentially demonic power, we have to recognize, well, there's a greater power and there's a greater authority.
Drew Voss:Yeah. Amen.
Luke Bilberry:Well, and I think kinda coming back to what kinda started that conversation, that question is you're talking about the reality of of the supernatural, the reality of angels, the reality of demons, and it and it reminds me of Ephesians two and says, and you were once dead in your trespasses and sins. Right? Paul writing to the church in Ephesus, writing to people in which you once following the course of the world. Right? So that your broken your broken world that you live in, you're following the path, which for us, what we know, that means we are sons and daughters of Adam, meaning we are born into sin.
Luke Bilberry:We are not good by nature by birth, but we step into sin from from the very beginning and we follow that and we follow the prince of the power of air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience and whom we all once lived in. And so there is this like inclination or you're saying something earlier that there's this idea and language that can sound scary or fear based that Satan is the prince of this world. Right? And he's going to and fro. Is it first Peter that tells us that the the devil prowls around like a lion, right, seeking to devour?
Luke Bilberry:And Jesus tells us John ten ten, the thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. It's to to take to sift you like wheat. And so we begin to see these realities and so I think that's where we need to have the biblical understanding and that biblical basis to go, this is a truth and a reality that we live in, that there is a spiritual attack. The question is is how how are we gonna live in light of it? How are we going to respond in that?
Luke Bilberry:And so I think that's the really important stuff. And I can't run past it cause I can't help but quote this line from Andrew Peterson. I think it's the song Don't You Wanna Thank Someone? But what you're hinting at is, is it better to have your, you know, the Thanos snap and evil all gone and removed or is it better to be broken and redeemed by love? Which actually paints a bigger picture of the God that we serve.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. Because Psalm one forty five tells us that he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love. The Lord is good to all and his mercy is over all that he has made. So even in this, there is some level of his mercy that's being played out in in in in in the universe when we see brokenness and we see evil because he's a God who allows choice. Right?
Luke Bilberry:He's a God who is giving however again that works on sovereign and free will, that's another conversation for another day and I think those things are more closer than they are separate. But there's this thing that's beautiful that God allows Satan and then Lucifer and the other angels to make a choice, an eternal choice to walk away. Right? And there will become there's repercussions for that. But he is a God who's slow to anger.
Luke Bilberry:He's abounding in steadfast love so that we his redemptive work could be seen. And so if we begin to put that in light of Ephesians two, we're using the scriptures, we just alright, how am I going to live right here, right now? And that's the, I think, fun work that we have to do is not to have all the right answers about angels and demons. Where do they come from? How do they work?
Luke Bilberry:You know? Buzzword. What is Nephilim and all that that we see in there. Like, that's kinda one of those things people can begin to get lost in. The question is how am I supposed to respond?
Luke Bilberry:I don't know if that's a fair process, pastor Tyler or not, but that's as I'm hearing the conversation, as I'm looking at the scriptures, that's what I keep coming back to is in light of these truths, how am I supposed to live?
Tyler Perrott:Yeah. And I think that that's really what I think it lands at is this reality of going, like, you should have a level of urgency as you live in the midst of just kind of the supernatural world that we are a part of to recognize I need to be praying, I need to be obedient, I need to be listening to the spirit. Go back to all of the things that we've talked about in previous Core episodes because they are all tied in together. And I think that there is a level that there should be an awareness that we are living with. There should be a readiness of which we're living with.
Tyler Perrott:I mean, even to think of as we come into this week prophecy. That's I think one of the main goals of that is that we should be living with a sense of preparedness and to go, man, I am making the most of every opportunity in every single day. And that's because I'm in the midst of a battle. That the scriptures do not give any afford that that is the truth of reality of what we find ourselves in right now. And I think one of the things There's this quote by Charles Spurgeon that is just always on my mind that I think that ties into this, even just in our posture and the way that we live.
Tyler Perrott:It says, if sinners be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our dead bodies. And if they perish, let them perish with our arms wrapped around their knees, imploring them to stay. And if hell must be filled, let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions and let no one go unwarned and unprayed for. Mhmm. That there's a level that that should be how this spiritual reality should be shaping us, should be shaping our prayers for the people that we know, our kids, our neighbors, our friends, our family members.
Tyler Perrott:That should be the posture that we find ourselves embodying, that we are ready to go, yeah, we're at war. We recognize that and we wanna live into that.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. Yeah. I love it. So kinda leading into that. So how are we supposed to live?
Luke Bilberry:Coming back to one of the angel passages. Hebrews thirteen two says, don't forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by doing so, some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it. I'd love to get y'all's just take on that passage. And this is texted in from the one on O'Brien Ball over there in the chorus.
Tyler Perrott:So so I'd love to just get answer first.
Luke Bilberry:Is that is that He asked you the question, pastor Tyler. So I'd love to get y'all's take on that because it's an interesting thing because he also he gave you a solid. He's also looking back Scripture, which is well done, pastor Brian, because we use Scripture to interpret Scripture.
Brian Ball:Mhmm. Yeah.
Luke Bilberry:He's looking back at Genesis eighteen and nineteen and he's Abraham and Lot had this encounter with messengers, angels, and so it'd be
Tyler Perrott:fun to just kinda have a dialogue around that. Drew, I'll let you start first.
Drew Voss:I mean, I think there's just a reality to angels do not work within the same limitations we do. Right? Like, I'm bound by this body. I get up in the morning and I feel it on my knees. Right?
Drew Voss:Angels aren't that. So there's, I think, a reality to it. It could very well be you don't know what we perceive as a human could be an angel. But I think even more so to that, that's being written for is that we would have a heart of hospitality. Right?
Drew Voss:That we would treat and see anybody like it could be a messenger of God. Or even better yet, right, that it would be, man, we are serving them like we would serve God himself. Like, there's just this holistic aspect to, yeah, could be. But I think the point of understanding what that is written for is that we would have a heart to host people well. Like, to welcome them, to love them, to receive them like our God has loved us.
Drew Voss:Welcomed us, received us.
Tyler Perrott:Correct me if I'm wrong here, wasn't the angel in the garden mistaken as a gardener? Right? That there's this level of like recognition to be able to say, oh man, for some reason this is a constant human occurrence that there is this reality of going. It's not just one random off off this happens one off, but it happens continuously. And so there's clearly an appearance level that angels, at least some angels can appear to be humans, to look like humans.
Tyler Perrott:And so I think we have to recognize that aspect as we come to this passage. And there's been a couple interactions within my lifetime that I go, if I get, when I get to heaven, I'm gonna go, who was that that I was actually interacting with? Like, think those
Drew Voss:Are you saying this about me?
Tyler Perrott:Yeah, Drew Vosk. I am. I'm saying it about you. But I think there's just a uniqueness of that to be able to hold a humility, not assuming it, but to be able to say, man, how would I treat somebody if they were truly a messenger of God? And am I showing that hospitality to this person and to someone that could potentially be an angel and to recognize that?
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And when it's when I think about all the times throughout the Old Testament, you know, an angel or a messenger of the Lord, which again, that's a conversation to the angel of the Lord, there seems to be some questions in and around that one, is that Jesus Christ, you know, before we actually knew him as as a messenger. But but there is this reality that God is interacting in our story to do to do something. And what is he doing in those moments? It's all about sharpening, refining us, helping us to hear the message.
Luke Bilberry:Right? So he if he shows up and he's talking to Abraham and Lot, you know, if he God chooses to show up in the presence of a burning bush, what are what are what's happening in the spiritual and the physical realm? It's God is working his story out. Right? That he is showing off again.
Luke Bilberry:Psalm one forty five, he's slowed anger, abounding in steadfast love. So he's showing up as human mile markers, human, you know, sign. So if he chooses to show up as an angel and it looks like a normal person and you're to entertain them, God's using that. God is as a as a proving ground, as a refinement piece is is how I'm looking at that. And so the invitation, like you said, is to how am I supposed to live?
Luke Bilberry:I'm supposed to be hospitable. I'm supposed to have eyes to the way that the Lord sees me with everyone around.
Tyler Perrott:And I think the the last little thing I'd add to that is to go, it's this constant reminder and even remembrance that the supernatural world and our world are much closer than
Luke Bilberry:we Yeah.
Tyler Perrott:Like, they are they're much more intertwined than maybe the average person walking around every day recognizes. To go, these are far more closer together than maybe you think, and you need to be reminded of that. And you should not be surprised when the supernatural realities break into an everyday normal life. Like, that should not shock us as much as it does.
Luke Bilberry:Right. Yeah. Man, that's such a good word because even, Ramsey texted in a second ago and she said Ephesians 12, we don't wrestle against flesh and blood. Right? That's not our battle's not this physical battle, it is this spiritual battle.
Luke Bilberry:And then we get to step into that and therefore, how should we live? We get to pray. Right? You use that scripture. Jesus says, Satan has has asked to sift you like wheat.
Luke Bilberry:He wants to tempt you. He wants to try you. He wants to take you. But Jesus says, I prayed for you. Mhmm.
Luke Bilberry:Right? And so that's that invitation for us. How are we praying? How are we interceding on behalf of of one another? And that's why I think we're reminded at the end of the day, those lessons like pastor Jim called us to, those five lessons.
Luke Bilberry:How do we live? The lessons that we learned from angels, you know, to be messengers, right, to to give glory and honor to God. And that's that's the invitation for every one of us. And so so I think that's a good part, a place to wrap the conversation unless you guys have any last minute kind of thoughts or anything from from the room. Any The peanut gallery is quiet.
Luke Bilberry:What do
Tyler Perrott:you know? It's quiet.
Luke Bilberry:I like it. I think there's more hear me say this. There's probably more questions, and that's why it's good to have biblical community around you. But we don't want you to get lost and to be distracted Yeah. From the reality that Jesus has invited you to follow him, and God is going to accomplish his will and his purpose through his creation.
Luke Bilberry:Whatever it looks like, whether it's angels, whether it's demons, whether it's people like you and me, whether it's the creation in the cosmos, God's will is going to be accomplished. May we have eyes to see and ears to hear how God is working. So we can't wait to join you guys on the last episode of the Core Podcast the next week. So see you guys then.