Nicole x Jonathan Zur
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[00:00:00] Speaker: This is the build a vibrant culture podcast, your source for the strategies, systems, and insights you need to turn your dreams into your destiny. Every week we dive into dynamic conversations as our host, Nicole Greer interviews, leadership, and business experts. They're here to shed light on practical solutions to the challenges of personal and professional development.
[00:00:21] Now here's your host, a professional speaker, coach, and consultant, Nicole Greer.
[00:00:28] Nicole: Welcome everybody to the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast. My name is Nicole Greer and they call me the Vibrant Coach. And I am here with another amazing leader out in our world of human resources and leadership. And his name is Jonathan Zur. Please welcome him to the show. Let me tell you a little bit about him.
[00:00:46] He is the president and CEO of the Virginia Center for Inclusive Communities, which is VCIC. It's an organization that works with schools, businesses, and communities to achieve success through inclusion. He's an experienced facilitator and consultant on issues of diversity, equity, and inclusion, and Jonathan was appointed by the Governor of Virginia to the Commonwealth Commission on Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion.
[00:01:11] This was formed in the aftermath of the tragedy in Charlottesville in August of 2017. In 2016, Jonathan was a speaker at the inaugural White House Summit on Diversity and Inclusion in Government. And Jonathan is a graduate of the University of Richmond, and he received a certificate in nonprofit executive leadership from the Center on Philanthropy at Indiana University.
[00:01:36] It is my absolute delight to have Jonathan here. How are you?
[00:01:41] Jonathan Zur: I'm doing well. Thank you so much for the invitation. It's great to be with you.
[00:01:44] Nicole: Yeah, it's great to be with you too. I'm just so thrilled that you're here. The reason why I asked Jonathan before we began, I'm like, do you know how you got here? And he's like, I think so. And so we both spoke over the summer at the PSHRM meeting over in Virginia beach. And it was so windy. Do you remember how windy?
[00:02:00] Jonathan Zur: It was! It was a beautiful view from the hotel window and I went outside to take a walk and it wasn't that pleasant of an experience.
[00:02:08] Nicole: That's right. It was blowing our hair back for sure. Yeah. But I hope this episode will blow your hair back because we want to talk about this thing, DEI and maybe, dial in a little bit on inclusivity. I think that's really important. So first of all what is inclusivity? What, how do you define that? Jonathan, help us out.
[00:02:26] Jonathan Zur: Yeah, I think it's a great starting question at the Virginia Center for Inclusive Communities. We think about the idea of inclusion or inclusivity as being the accepting, respecting and valuing of all people. So one of the things that I think is really important in this work is to distinguish between diversity and inclusion, and then some people also think about equity and people talk about belonging.
[00:02:48] So diversity really is just the presence of difference. You have two people in a room, you have some level of diversity. That doesn't mean that it doesn't take work to ensure that you have representation and connection with your local community. But I think the real work is in fostering an inclusive environment. It's not just plopping different people into a space and saying, have at it. It's really thinking about how can those folks connect? How can people feel respected? How can people feel valued? And when that happens. They do better work. They engage with their colleagues more effectively. They want to stay at their organization. They share ideas that improve efficiency and outcomes. And so it's not just about the diversity piece, important as that is. We really focus on how inclusion drives success.
[00:03:32] Nicole: Hmm. That's fantastic. And I love this definition and tell me if I got it right, but people feel valued, accepted, and respected. Did I get it? Okay. All right. So there you go. Everybody write that down. There's your definition from the guy who's running the whole center in Virginia. All right. Very good.
[00:03:49] Let's talk a little bit about your organization because you just kind of dropped a little nugget on me prior to getting started, which was this department has been around for, did you say 90 years?
[00:04:02] Jonathan Zur: It'll be 90 years in 2025. It's a really remarkable history. The Virginia Center for Inclusive Communities is a nonprofit organization, and we initially were founded out of an interfaith movement that was traveling across the country. So, in the late 1920s, early 1930s, a group of civic and religious leaders came together and they were concerned about the rise in anti Semitism they were seeing around them. They were concerned about anti Catholic sentiment that was on the rise in the 1920s and 30s. They were concerned certainly about the rise of the Ku Klux Klan. And so these religious leaders and civic leaders came together to form a national organization that was at the time the National Conference of Christians and Jews and their signature program was to go to communities large and small across the United States.
[00:04:54] And model what interfaith dialogue and respect look like. So this program became known as the Tolerance Trio, which is a cute name. And it was a rabbi, priest, and minister. It's not a bad joke. It truly was. And those folks went to different communities and answered people's questions, and dispelled stereotypes, and modeled what Community building and trust building look like.
[00:05:16] And on November 25th, 1935, they spoke in Lynchburg, Virginia to nearly 1000 people, which is remarkable to think about a gathering of that size at that time. And around those issues. And those who were in attendance said, we need an organization doing this work in Virginia. And so they initially affiliated with this national group, the National Conference of Christians and Jews.
[00:05:38] So we were the Virginia office and then over time broadened in mission and scope to think about issues connected to race and class, gender, immigration, sexual orientation, et cetera. So about 20 years ago, we relaunched, we changed our affiliation and relaunched as the Virginia Center for Inclusive Communities.
[00:05:56] So 1935 to 2025 will be 90 years. And the work has certainly evolved as the issues have evolved, but to be able to draw on that rich history and the fact that folks who were doing this work 90 years ago had no idea they were catalyzing a movement that my colleagues and I sustain today. They just believed in what they were doing and wanted to align with their values and honor their values. And here we are today, the beneficiaries of that legacy.
[00:06:25] Nicole: And that's so fantastic. And I think you know, as the, I move around and all the different places I go, the businesses and the organizations that I work with, and I bet you do too, is that people think DEI is like new. And it's like, no, this is a thing that's, that's been on the minds, and really, I love how you said this was on the hearts of these people, right? Because really it is a heart issue. It's about love and hate. I think, if you just want to boil it down.
[00:06:53] Jonathan Zur: Yeah, I think there's so many ways in which this is about the relationships people can forge. And yes, I think when we look at how the tolerance trio, these leaders were leaning into their values 90 years ago, I think it was so much about the importance of relationships. It was about caring for our neighbors.
[00:07:14] And what they were saying was that our values, in their case, religious values, don't align with the bigotry that we're seeing around us. And we know that we are better than this hatred or this division. And so they modeled, I think, for a lot of communities, a path forward. And today, again, as our work looks different, I hope that we're able to do something similar in being a catalyst for individuals and their organizations and communities to be more successful through their commitment to inclusion.
[00:07:43] Nicole: Yeah. So great. And he keeps dropping the word values. And so I just want to say something about that real quick. A lot of companies, Jonathan, have, their core values and we've been taught this, it's all the way, Covey, all the way up today, everybody's got to have their core values.
[00:07:59] And I think they're taken a little lightly, like, people and leaders need to really, A) think about, What core values do we really want to emulate? And then how? How, how, how? And what behaviors are we going to teach? And so if you look at your core values and they have anything about respect or integrity, doing DEI work just makes sense.
[00:08:21] Jonathan Zur: Certainly, and I think there are ways to take values from being these words on a website or words on a poster. And really thinking about what are the day to day practices? On our organization's team we have folks who focus on work with schools and then others who work with businesses, others who work with communities and for the schools, a big area of focus is on what one administrator called the "look for."
[00:08:46] So if I'm walking down the hallway and I'm peeking into different classrooms. What am I looking for that tells me that this is a successful learning environment, that students are engaged, that educators are facilitating strong learning, and I think the same thing is true in our workplaces. Let's not just have values as a marketing statement, but let's really think about if I were walking around our office, if I were observing team meetings, if I were thinking about folks on an assembly line or in a brainstorming meeting, what would be the "look fors" is that would tell me that we're seeing these values in action. I think when people know at that tangible level and can add to the day to day practices of those values, that only benefits folks within an organization, and then it benefits the organization as a whole, people know what is expected of them. They have a structure that hopefully aligns with what they believe in. And that keeps them there, and that keeps them thriving there.
[00:09:41] Nicole: Yeah, that's fantastic. I love "look fors." Okay. So everybody write "look fors" down. I mean, get up off of your desk and get out there in your organization and go look around what's going on. You know, that's an old management- you probably have this book on your shelf, Jonathan- "The One Minute Manager." You know, one of the things that's said in there is to manage by walking around. Right? And go looking for stuff! I love it. Okay. So let's go back to the definitions just for a second for DEI. So you said diversity was just difference in the scenario or in the environment. Did I get that right? And you might, do you want to add to it?
[00:10:19] Jonathan Zur: Yeah, diversity is the presence of difference. So, I think that there are ways to focus on particular areas of diversity. There are some organizations that have, rightfully so, priority around racial or ethnic diversity. There are some who are thinking about gender. There are some who are thinking about and want to be sensitive to religious diversity or any number of other demographic identifiers. But I think It's important to recognize that the presence is important, that we want to represent our local community, that if we are marketing to different segments, we want to make sure that our organization has a connection there and that it's authentic, but it's not enough. My colleagues and I work with lots of organizations where they talk about the idea that increased diversity, especially at the beginning might present more challenges than fewer. In the long term when we have strong leadership, when we're able to co-create inclusive cultures, the idea of diversity brings more success. But if we're just, again, plopping different people together, then we have the possibility that folks are going to misinterpret something that is said or done or people are on edge.
[00:11:30] There's a great framework from Nancy Adler, who does a lot of work around organizational behavior and organizational development. And what she talks about is the tension between group satisfaction and group effectiveness. And what she finds is monocultural teams, teams where there's a lot of sameness, will often self report as being much more effective than they actually are. And teams that have diversity and inclusion will report that it was a really challenging process. They'll say it took a long time. They'll say you know, I don't know about that, or it was complicated, or we didn't always get along. Their result, if you look from a bottom line perspective, is consistently better if they're well led and facilitated. But the things that they say are that it was more challenging. And in some ways that's really intuitive, but I think it's important to lift up the idea that if I walk into a meeting and I think I have the best idea and I share that and you say, absolutely, I agree, let's move on to the next thing. I feel great about myself. I feel great about our team. Wasn't that hard. There's confirmation bias. We're able to move forward pretty quickly. If I say, here's what I think. And you say, Oh, I was thinking something completely different. A third person says, what about this? If we stick with it, we're probably going to come up with a better solution because we've engaged all of these different possibilities, but I don't feel as smart. I might not be as likely to speak up first in the next meeting. I might wonder, did she disagree with me because she didn't like me? And so that's the ambiguity that we have to figure out how to work through. The demographic trends in our country tell us that we're going to see fewer and fewer teams that are in that monocultural category. We're not going to have a lot of work teams where folks come from the same background, same education, same geographic context, all of that. And so organizations have a choice about whether we want to simply have diversity without inclusion, which results often in dysfunction, or if we can work the muscle to ensure that we can maximize the benefits of diversity through inclusive, facilitated leadership.
[00:13:35] Nicole: Oh my gosh, there was so much in there. Okay. Everybody stop your Apple podcast or Spotify and like move the little dot back and re-listen to that answer because it was full of goodies. Okay. So here's what I'm going to throw out and Jonathan, you tell me... First of all, I have to go, I need to meet Nancy Adler, so let's work on that. All right, but then, what he said in there, I think -but correct me, Jonathan, you're allowed to correct- is , said bias is all up in these groups that we're inside of, and so I have a list, everybody, of like, I don't know, I think there's 27 biases on it. And so if you want to email me at nicole@vibrantculture.com, because when you start reading it, you're like, Oh, I think I have that one. Ooh, I think I have that one. And it raises your self awareness, which is the S in my coaching methodology, self awareness. But then there's like this thing of groupthink. When you don't have diversity, you get that thing called groupthink or that concept, maybe, you know, the name of the, uh, I'm having a brain loss right now. The guy that did the road to Abilene, it was like how everybody, you know, one guy said, do you want to drive to Abilene for dinner? And the whole family just agreed, but they didn't really want to go. And they got back after the long sweaty ride to Abilene and they were like, what is going on? So there's groupthink.
[00:14:52] Also I heard you say that if there's not diversity, there won't be productive conflict, right? And then I think that the final thing that he said, he gave you a formula. So everybody write this down. Diversity minus inclusion equals dysfunction. So I just don't want you to miss that little math problem he threw in there.
[00:15:15] So really, really good stuff. And I, it made me think about Stephen Covey's concept of the third way. Jonathan's got an idea and Nicole's got an idea. Probably if they put those together, they'll get the third way. And that's the better way, right? 'Cause we're using everybody's genius in the room. So stinking good! All right. Very good. All right. So we talked about diversity. We talked about inclusion. So will you drop a definition of equity for us? So we get that one?
[00:15:42] Jonathan Zur: I'm happy to. And I think equity is one of the most overused and least understood words within our conversations today. And so I think it's really important to be clear on what equity means and what it does not mean. At the Virginia Center for inclusive communities, we rely on a definition of equity that comes from the Annie E. Casey foundation, and I'll warn you that it's a mouthful of a definition, but I'll break it
[00:16:06] Nicole: Everybody get your pen ready.
[00:16:09] Jonathan Zur: So the Annie E. Casey Foundation talks about equity as being the state, quality, or ideal of being just, impartial and fair. And that doesn't roll off the tongue, and I wish that we had something that was a little bit more clear, but I think there's a lot of really rich content in that definition. So when we think about the state, quality or ideal, a big part of that is recognizing that we can have a current state that is really positive, and we need to continue striving.
[00:16:39] This is always a process of improvement and the analogy that I've heard folks use that I find to be helpful is around technology. So, if you had the state of technology within your organization as being the absolute very best in 1998. I hope you didn't stop there because if you did, you probably couldn't even be listening to this conversation right now.
[00:17:03] And so we can say we are at the best right now and we need to continue to strive. We need to continue to improve. We need to continue to grow. And so that's the idea of equity being both a state, quality, and ideal. And then when we think about being just, impartial, and fair, it's really about recognizing individual and group pattern needs.
[00:17:24] So if you were to have visited my childhood home growing up, I have a younger sister, two and a half years younger and you were to have observed us playing for any period of time, probably 10 or 15 minutes in one of us would have whined to our parents saying that's not fair because I was older and I was bigger and I had more school. And if we got the exact same thing, that actually would not have been fair. But because our parents gave us different things and responded to our individual needs, we perceived that as being unfair. They got to a point that my sister is much smarter than me when it comes to math...
[00:18:01] Nicole: you're such a good brother.
[00:18:03] Jonathan Zur: Well, it's also factually true. So, you know, there was a point where we didn't need the same thing in her favor, where she was able to pick things up more quickly than I was. And so again, I think it's recognizing within our organizations, there are certain things that we need to do across the board for everyone. There are other times where we need to recognize that there may be individual needs. I'll give you a quick example of this and worked with a few organizations that had "aha" moments around this and it's sort of simple thing. It's around bereavement leave. So a lot of organizations, when they think about bereavement leave, have a policy that says you get X number of days off after one of the following members of your family passes away. And an equity lens would question that and say, who are we to decide who's important in your family?
[00:18:53] Nicole: That's right.
[00:18:54] Jonathan Zur: One. And then two, who are we to tell you how you have to grieve and when you have to grieve? So it might be that in your family's practice or your religious or cultural tradition, there is an extended family member who's really important to you, or it might mean that you need to have an observance two months after the death or a year after the death. And so this is something that organizations likely have just been doing the same thing year after year after year, copying and pasting a model policy year after...
[00:19:26] Nicole: Right? That handbook, it just keeps getting
[00:19:27] Jonathan Zur: But if we start, certainly, but if we start to look and say, what do our employees need, it may be that we have the majority of our employees who fit into the list of family categories that we've identified and can take those however many days right after a death. There may be others who have different needs, and it doesn't really burden or hurt our organization to start to recognize that fairness in that case is not about giving everyone the same exact thing. It's about acknowledging that we may have different needs and we can get supports in whatever ways we need.
[00:20:00] And so equity is something that folks are struggling with, because I think there's a tendency towards sameness. But if our sameness is based on what I universalize in terms of what I want... so I'm the leader of an organization. I say, this is what I would want. So everyone should want this , that might meet my need, that might meet your need, but it may not meet the needs of the other people we work with.
[00:20:23] And so it requires us to think differently about understanding individual needs. And then also, I think, really considering the group pattern. So, if I start to notice that there is a population of employees, that is struggling with a particular policy or for whom our onboarding doesn't work, or they're, you know, they're not seeming to perform at the same level. We might start to look and say, why is it that this population of employees? Is able to quickly pick up on this information and this other population is not or this population of employees didn't complain about the annual quote unquote Christmas party. And now we have more religious diversity and folks are asking why we're having or a prayer before a team meeting or things like that. That's where the diversity increase may be harder. But it helps us to do better work. If we really think about how to include and value everyone.
[00:21:15] Nicole: I love it. I love it. Okay. And so, equity is the state, quality or ideal of being impartial, just, or fair. How'd I do? Okay. All right. Okay. Good. All right. So I have a little story, Jonathan, I just want to share with everybody and you. So there's a company I work with, it's called Decorative Solutions. It's over in Monroe, North Carolina, and they make beautiful cabinetry. Well, we had this leadership training and this team building training around personality, which is one of the things that makes people diverse. And so we went and we delivered it in English and, uh, it was fantastic. We had a great time. I enjoyed myself thoroughly. They said they had enjoyed it. They're putting it to use. It's all good. Well, the HR director there is amazing. And she turned around and came back to me, Rosa, and she said, um, we need to do this whole thing again in Spanish. And she said, and moving forward, we're going to do everything in English and everything in Spanish.
[00:22:21] Because the major group of people that work at Decorative Solutions are Hispanic. And so she's like, let's do it in Spanish. I just want you to think about the fact that we had all these people sitting in the room that were trying so hard. You never saw people try so hard to understand everything that was coming out of this mouth and it comes out pretty fast.
[00:22:40] So they're translating it from Spanish to English. So I don't know how much they got. But they went back and said, we didn't get everything because we were, you know, doing two languages in our brain. And so I had a lady named Adalia come alongside me and I sat in the room to help her. Cause she was relatively new to the content, but she delivered it all in Spanish and just the love that these people felt because we spoke in their natural language.
[00:23:10] Now some people would say they need to learn English. Okay. Well, okay. Yeah, but we need to learn Spanish too. And do you want these people to apply these concepts or not? I mean, what do you really want? So I just got such a heartfelt experience from those folks because they were trying to provide equity. Is that right? Am I saying that right?
[00:23:31] Jonathan Zur: I think so. I think it's recognizing that if we need to meet individual and group needs, we might need to structure our work in a slightly different way. And I think your point around, you know, Do we want people to get the message? Do we want people to be able to live into the message in their work with their colleagues going forward? If so, then it becomes important to make sure that the message is delivered and received in a way that serves folks. It makes me think of an experience one of my colleagues had facilitating an organization that similarly had a mix of English and Spanish speakers. And the organization decided that they were going to arrange for simultaneous interpretation.
[00:24:14] So think about like the United Nations, everyone walks in with a headset and their interpreters in the back. And you turn to one channel if you want English and you turn to one channel, if you want Spanish. And people are having a simultaneous conversation and hearing each other. And they said, in particular, there was a Spanish speaking employee who had been at the organization for 10 years. And it was the 1st time he spoke in a professional development session. It was the 1st time a lot of his colleagues heard his voice, heard his viewpoint and that's 1 moment. But what a difference that type of moment can make for everyone in that room to be able to connect in a more meaningful way than to work side by side, sort of parallel to folks who are different from them. And then at lunch, go and sit at separate tables and then come back. When we do that, we're not creating an environment where folks can be their full selves and can really be committed and looking out for one another. Instead we're sort of in our corners, which doesn't foster a thriving community.
[00:25:16] Nicole: I totally agree. All right. I love it. Okay. So everybody, you got your three definitions. I think we covered that. And so now you're seeing they're thinking, okay, so what's going on with DEI anyway? So it's been kind of a roller coaster out there for the DEI folks. So I know organizations that put a whole DEI department in and now they've pulled it out. I mean, there's just all sorts of chaos. So tell us what's going on from your vantage point since this is what you've done every day and your group's been doing for 90 years. So tell us what's going on.
[00:25:53] Jonathan Zur: It has been a rollercoaster. And I think that there are folks who have been gradually increasing their awareness and their commitment to this work over a long period of time. I've been in my role for 15 years, and I've certainly seen growth in terms of what organizations are thinking about, the infrastructure that they're building, whether that's staff, person, or people, or department, and I think that there were a number of folks who jumped on the bandwagon, particularly in 2020, and they didn't necessarily know what they were setting up; they didn't necessarily know what indicators of success would look like; they created initiatives or departments without necessarily having strategy behind it, especially if they were doing so in rush and in chaos. And then for many organizations, they were also doing it at a time when folks were working remotely, which is a hard time to be able to build trust and connection. And so I think in some ways it was a perfect storm.
[00:26:51] I also think we haven't set folks up for success in the roles that have been created. So, if we think about the idea of equity and the examples that you shared, and that I shared around language or around leave policies, part of the role of creating a DEI position or office is about interrogating the processes that we have in place. And if the leader of an organization has set up processes that they like, that work for them, and all of a sudden now we've hired someone who is consistently saying,
[00:27:26] Nicole: Is that right?
[00:27:27] Jonathan Zur: That might not include everyone, or have you thought about doing it a different way? That requires a level of openness and humility from the leader that I think some organizations may not have.
[00:27:38] Nicole: Right.
[00:27:39] Jonathan Zur: And so I think figuring out how do we move this work forward in a comprehensive way requires not just responding in crisis, but by saying, here is our plan and here is our pathway to get there.
[00:27:52] For our organization, we help businesses to think about 3 P's in terms of driving diversity, inclusion and equity. We think about pathways, we think about programs and we think about policies. And so pathways are about our recruitment, our retention strategy. How do we bring people in? How do we ensure that people have access to grow within our organizations? Our programs are really about the culture that we build. So that might be through professional development. It might be through mentoring programs, could be through affinity groups. But we need to think not just about, again, bringing people in, but also how do they co-create a culture that works for everyone.
[00:28:29] And then the equity work is really at that policy level. It's thinking about how do we make sure that we are putting our personnel manual into practice in a way that serves a diverse workforce. How do we think about the vendors that we engage? How do we think about the money that we spend? How do we make sure that we don't have inequity in terms of salaries based on things like gender?
[00:28:53] And so if we work at all of those levels, pathways, programs, and policies, then organizations can see the benefits of an organization that is inclusive and diverse and equitable. But oftentimes these efforts have not been able to roll out in as comprehensive a way. And so it might be a one off training that gives people shared vocabulary, but doesn't necessarily result in deep engagement. It might be a recruitment strategy, but then nothing to support people once they arrive, or we might change a policy here or there, but it's not something that is truly embedded. And so this work is comprehensive. And the other thing I'll say is that if we are addressing the residue of practices that have excluded for decades within our society, for centuries, for generations, a one year diversity initiative is not going to...
[00:29:46] Nicole: Cut it.
[00:29:47] Jonathan Zur: Solve all that,
[00:29:48] Nicole: That's right.
[00:29:48] Jonathan Zur: A 4 4 year diversity initiative is not going to. And so there needs to be a tolerance for ambiguity. And I think a commitment to seeing the process through. Unfortunately, what we've seen in the last few years is there's been enough work to be able to surface what the issues might be, but not that commitment to say, well, we need to do something about it.
[00:30:10] So now I'm uncomfortable that you've named that there's this bias or inequity in our organization, so let's stop talking about it and go back to the way it was. Well, that might make me feel more comfortable, but that doesn't actually address the issue. Addressing the issue requires us to work through the challenge, to work through the issues, rather than to avoid them.
[00:30:29] That's where I think organizations are right now, is figuring out who has the commitment and the capacity to work through these issues. Because simply avoiding them means they're going to come up again. We're just kicking the can down the curb.
[00:30:41] Nicole: Yeah, that's exactly right. And I just want to give you the three P's again. So the pathway for this work to be done, DEI work to be done. And so I just equated that in my mind to the employee lifecycle. Is that good? You know, like, yeah for example, even the the job placement ad. We've got to look at the job placement ad all the way through to offboarding, how do we go about all of these things. So I thought that was good.
[00:31:09] And I can't remember the name of the video right now, but I teach HR, uh, through UNC Charlotte and their certificate program. And I have this one video about data. And one of the things that the video talks about- the gentleman is European, I can't remember if he's German or Austrian- but anyway, so he talks about these data points and he says they did an assessment of just looking at the names that were on the resumés. And how people would immediately decline people with names that weren't like Anglo-Saxon American, like, not Sue, John or Bob or whatever, you know, because of their name. Like "I can't even pronounce his name, Delete." Or whatever. And so it was shocking to hear how we just don't even tolerate somebody's name. So let me tell you the next one: Programs, leadership development, all the things that we do in terms of programming inside of our organizations, and then Policy. So don't miss that. Pathway, programs, and policy. Okay.
[00:32:11] And then you said we have to have a tolerance for ambiguity. And so in my little brain, I have a program that I teach on change management. It's just like an introductory, like, here's what change management is. We're not even doing it yet. But we give people a change readiness assessment. And one of the traits- like your interior quality traits that you need to have for change- is tolerance for ambiguity. Now, Jonathan, when people take this thing it's, I mean, I need to start taking a survey and like looking at the numbers for real, real. But everybody's like, my lowest was tolerance for ambiguity. And I'm like, Dang, that comes up every time.
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[00:33:21] Nicole: All right, so we'll pick it up from there. It's always the lowest! Tolerance for ambiguity. What, what is going on with that?
[00:33:30] Jonathan Zur: You know I think that that is reflective of people wanting a level of stability and predict predictability. And again our organizational structures work for some people. And so if I universalize my experience and I assume, well, I would like this menu for our staff lunch, so everyone must want this on the menu. And I don't consider the fact that different people may have different needs. Then it becomes challenging when I have that realization, one. Two, I might personalize it in a way that I think is problematic. So if I learn that I've worked with you for the last 10 years, and there's been something that has made you feel excluded for the last 10 years and I wasn't aware of it, that can feel really uncomfortable for me. I might feel guilty. I might think, well, I thought we knew each other really well and maybe we don't. The problem there is I've learned about an inequity and I've made it about me instead of making it about solving the problem. But I think there is a human instinct to say, Was I a bad person? Or I liked this tradition and now you're saying this tradition doesn't include everyone. What does that say about me? So I think there's a piece there around how people respond to learning more and whether we can create cultures where people appreciate that feedback or that learning as a gift, rather than something that is a condemnation or something that makes them turn to a place of feeling badly.
[00:34:56] The other thing, we use a framework from William Bridges around change management and transition. And what Bridges talks about is that the change happens to everyone at once. The transition is experienced in vastly different ways by different people. And so, the example he uses, which I think is an easy, helpful one, is think about moving. If you ever moved houses, there are people who move in and the first night they're there, they're like, I've been looking forward to this. I finally feel at home. I feel settled in. And there are people who six months in are saying, I still can't find this thing. Where is that box? I made the biggest mistake. The change happened to both of those members of the family at the same time. We both moved on the same day. But the feeling of transition could be vastly different for different folks. And I think that's a piece that we need to help people to understand.
[00:35:48] Part of that also is about organizations giving space for that. And so Bridges has stages of transition, and there's a piece that really focuses on endings. How do we honor what has been, how do we give people space to reflect on and grieve might be overstating it, but at least have a space to say, okay, I liked it this way. I was comfortable this way. I knew where my parking spot was. I knew what my task was. I knew who my coworkers were. And now we're moving into a new space so that there's a space where we're feeling of loss or feeling of giving up something. Then there's an ambiguity space where we're co-creating something, and that can feel for some super exciting. There are some people who say, I've been looking forward to this for years. And finally, we're here. And other people who are saying, you're taking away everything I liked about this organization, both at the same time, both in the same interaction. And so how do we give space for folks to work through that?
[00:36:45] And then there's the moving forward with the new beginning. So how do we then chart our path forward? I think organizations really need to be attentive to each of these stages and support employees, recognizing that some may be raring to go and others may be- 2 years in- still longing for the quote, unquote, good old days. And there may be something in the future where we start to more intentionally link work around diversity, equity, inclusion with work around change management, because ultimately, while they're not exactly the same thing, I think the principles of change management, as we work to implement more inclusive, diverse, equitable environments, is really critical to help people through whatever those changes, those transitions look like.
[00:37:32] Nicole: I love everything you're saying. Absolutely. Yeah. Everybody write this down. William Bridges, go check that out. We got to do our change management homework. And again, I think you're absolutely right because here is the deal: you've got to change. It could be changing the software. It's just software. Oh my gosh, the drama around changing the software!
[00:37:51] Jonathan Zur: Absolutely.
[00:37:52] Nicole: I mean, like, and I had an experience at Duke Energy, where I was on a team doing a change initiative. We were changing the software for like 800 employees. And what Jonathan was saying about people grieving. So don't miss this. We had customer service representatives that had been using the same software systems for a very long time. And they had prestige and they were seen as an expert and they were seen as a go-to person. And they, like they had a lot of status around their position on this customer service team. And like in one day it was gone because it just leveled the playing field. Nobody knows how to use this software. Ah. And so people were a little sideways about the whole thing. And if you didn't slow down and talk to people and get where they're coming from... and a lot of, a lot of us were maybe some of us, the diversity factor, but you know, I had a guy that raised me that was like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. And so I just always toughed things out. Some people don't know how to tough things out, and that's how we're all different. So, I think what he's saying is absolutely huge and I love the idea of change management and diversity, equity, inclusion coming together. Whoo. Okay. When is your book coming out, Jonathan? Are you...
[00:39:11] Jonathan Zur: Don't a lot of free time for writing a book right now, but maybe at some point.
[00:39:14] Nicole: Ok, well maybe we'll start with the transcript from this interview. That'll be what will get us started. Okay, so he's talked about the definitions of all these things, diversity, equity, inclusion and then given us kind of like what he think happened, where, we're all hot and bothered about it, now it's a little bit of chaos, and so he's talked about that, given us the kind of a lens to look through, we've got to think about our pathways, our programs and our policies.
[00:39:38] Okay. So I've got all these HR and leaders listening to this podcast and they're sitting there thinking, okay, so how do I foster this? How do I get this going? Like, what advice would you give to everybody listening? How do I get this on the right track?
[00:39:56] Jonathan Zur: Yeah I think that there's a great line from the disability rights movement that I often think about when working to create a DEI plan or working to help an organization move forward. And the line is, "nothing about us without us. Nothing about us without us." And so I think one area of focus would need to be for HR folks to not create the plan or the strategy in a room in an office by themselves, but instead to really think about how do we bring employees at all levels and from all departments within our organization together to help us identify how we can co create the culture that is truly inclusive.
[00:40:44] And so that's not going to be a cookie cutter, one size fits all. There are absolutely practices that we can benefit from seeing how other organizations have done. We can bring in professional development. We can use a model for an employee resource group or affinity group type program. We can think about coaching and mentoring for leaders. We can think about an intranet with resources and communication practices, but ultimately, I think part of this is about bringing folks together and then helping them to drive a strategy in the same way you would any other important priority of the organization, and we need to think about it, not as an initiative... so it's not a one time, "we're going to drive this initiative, and then when a year from now, we're going to say we've done our DEI work and move on to the next priority..." This is about embedding it into our organization's work, but it also requires us to have a clear sense of where our organization is and where we want to go. Far too often I see organizations, for example, around professional development, deciding who to bring in based on who someone sees at a conference, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. And certainly my colleagues and I have been invited...
[00:41:52] Nicole: yeah, me too.
[00:41:53] Jonathan Zur: ...of those asks. But if our employees are consistently having a DEI one-on-one training, and it's never going to move forward into some sort of next level...
[00:42:05] Nicole: Right. Application.
[00:42:07] Jonathan Zur: Yeah, then we can't blame them for rolling their eyes the next time a DEI training gets added to their calendar. Or if we are talking about certain things in professional development, but we're not updating our personnel manual, then we're not moving our work forward.
[00:42:19] And so this is about how do we put the pieces together to think about where our organization is, where we want it to be, what are the levers that we need to pull; and then I think driving it forward with a range of people helping to support the initiatives, not simply because they are passionate- we need passion, but we also need strategy and we need data to help us figure out how we want to move forward.
[00:42:43] And so it is a long journey. I can't, I don't want to sugar coat it and say that there's a quick fix or an easy solution. And I'll go back to what I said early on... the benefits of making this commitment are going to be that your organization is more successful, that you're going to have more creativity, more innovation, more collaboration. Employees are going to be more satisfied. You're going to be able to better serve your customers. All of those things can happen if we lean into these issues rather than avoid them and pretend that they're not present in our organizations.
[00:43:17] Nicole: Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah. And let me repeat what he said. "Nothing about us without us," means bring everybody into the conversation or get a, get what in change management models, John Cotter would say "a guiding coalition," like be intentional about your guiding, your guiding coalition.
[00:43:34] Right. All right. So I think that's so good. And when you were talking about the disabilities have you, I bet you, you've seen that video of the gentleman who has, he's a, I think he's a comedian and he has cerebral palsy and he is in New York City on the top floor of a hotel and he wants a rainbow bagel and he tries to go from his hotel in New York City to the rainbow bagel shop. Do you know which video I'm talking about?
[00:43:57] Jonathan Zur: Yes.
[00:43:58] Nicole: Did you know his name off the top of your head? I'm wracking my brain.
[00:44:01] Jonathan Zur: I know the video.
[00:44:02] Nicole: But if you just watch what this guy goes through in a wheelchair to get a rainbow bagel. First of all, he's hilarious, he's laughing at himself, he's laughing at the situation. But like really, I think it, it took him six hours.
[00:44:19] But what's the point? So the point is, Nicole, is that like even the disability thing is still not understood, I don't think too clearly. And what I love about that gentleman that did that video is that he uses humor.
[00:44:34] So what are some ways I can carry myself as a leader or a professional or a an HR person as I introduce DEI? 'Cause I think it is serious. It's serious. But I love this guy who's, trying to get down the elevator to get to his rainbow bagel. I mean, it's so ridiculous and you're laughing at his jokes along the way. So I think humor and a lightness and an ease or something. What, how could we, how should we carry ourselves? Because I think everybody's like, *gasp* DEI!
[00:45:09] Jonathan Zur: Think when folks are walking on eggshells, not serving anyone well. And so I think a few things, I think we need to set the foundation for folks to be able to make mistakes and not lose their dignity. I think that's an important piece of fostering belonging. And so I think sometimes people will fear it's better to say nothing than to say the wrong thing, and I think that comes from a place of care. Like, I don't want to be just out there saying whatever comes to mind being obnoxious, but I think we need to build a foundation of trust such that if I say the wrong thing, you and I have enough of a relationship that I can learn from that and we can sustain our relationship rather than immediately saying, well, he's a bigot and I'm never going to talk to again. I'm
[00:45:57] Nicole: What an idiot. Right.
[00:45:59] Jonathan Zur: So, so a lot of this is around building that foundation of relationship and trust so that we can have the conversation. It doesn't become this big production where we're walking on eggshells, where we're afraid of saying anything, where we're dancing around the issues. I think that's a piece of it and then the other thing that I heard someone say years ago that has stuck with me is when I hear something that is new to me, respond with wonder rather than judgment.
[00:46:25] Nicole: hmm,
[00:46:26] Jonathan Zur: And I think so often in our society today, people respond with judgment. Oh, I don't like what this person posted on social media? Unfriend. I don't like what I just heard on this particular cable station? Change the channel. I don't like what this person says in the workplace? I'm never going to sit with them again.
[00:46:43] Versus how is it that we work at the same organization or we live in the same community and we've had such different experiences? And that doesn't mean I necessarily need to agree with you in the end, but at least that response with wonder creates an opportunity for us to stay in relationship, for me to have a more of a window into and potentially empathy for your lived experience, rather than immediately shutting you off and thinking the worst about you.
[00:47:13] And so, yeah, I think humor, to your point, can be a way for us to disarm. I think humor plays a role in this, and I don't want people to think that we're joking about,
[00:47:25] Nicole: No. We're not joking.
[00:47:26] Jonathan Zur: And you're not implying that at all. I know that, but you know, I think that there are ways to not make a conversation on DEI feel so heavy, so scary and part of that is about building the foundation of trust and building in the principles of dialogue and communication that allow people to have that healthy engagement rather than cutting off the relationship.
[00:47:48] Nicole: Right. Right. Yeah. And so I think a big part of what we're kind of dancing all around is like this idea of ego.
[00:47:56] Jonathan Zur: Hmm.
[00:47:56] Nicole: You know, when you, you immediately judge, I think the ego pops up and says, be careful. Somebody, somebody's challenging your ideals and you know you're right, and so I got a big hit around two, two other kind of I don't know if they're modalities or ways that we learn or ways that we need to learn to be, but not only does DEI need change management, but it needs emotional intelligence and it also needs I, I just got exposed. I don't know if you know, Shirzad Chamine, who wrote Positive Intelligence. Have you heard of him yet? Okay. Okay. Well, he's, he, yeah he's up at, he was a Stanford guy and I got turned onto him by another coach and his thing is about listening to the judge in your head. And so I think that's what you just said, be careful, don't judge, turn to wonder. And that's basically what he teaches. And so he's got like the main judge and there's nine saboteurs. And I mean, it's just interesting, right? Because we all have, hello, you all have voices in your head. Write that down. I have voices in my head. I should probably look at what they're saying to me.
[00:49:07] So I love what you're saying. So this is a really, a multifaceted little diamond we need to play with, this DEI. We got to surround it with all these other skill sets. So good. All right. So last question, about kind of this whole area of work, is you use the word belonging again? And I think some people are- I don't want to put words in your mouth- inclusivity and belonging, are they cousins? Are they synonymous? What's the deal there?
[00:49:34] Jonathan Zur: I think there's a real connection there. I think the definition that I shared of inclusion around accepting, respecting and valuing certainly would describe an experience of belonging within an organization. There are some folks that are moving towards that label and I think it's important to be clear. Words matter. I think if we are simply just bouncing around whatever the label of the moment is, that doesn't feel like a strategy for success.
[00:50:02] Nicole: No, and it's confusing.
[00:50:04] Jonathan Zur: Yes, one of our board members who leads DEI for a company in Richmond said, You know, I could be reprinting our brochures every three weeks point. You know, we're just going to do our work and stick with the labels that we have. And if people have questions, we'll discuss it with them. So, I think if you have a diversity initiative that's focused on increasing representational diversity in your organization, say that. If your focus is around updating policies and practices at a structural level that more leans towards equity, say that. If it's more around belonging or inclusion, say that. And if it's all of those things, then figure out what the label is for you and for your organization. I focus less on the words. Again, they're important. And more on the work and being clear about what does our organization need at this moment. And then how does that drive our process forward?
[00:50:52] Nicole: Yeah. Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, we are at the top of the hour and all of my listeners are waiting, wait, wait, wait, we don't want Jonathan to stop teaching. So thank you so much for teaching us today. Could you, do you have like maybe one more nugget? What would you leave us with? Like, here's our, the challenge for leaders and HR professionals that are listening to the podcast. What would you tell them? Here's what I, here's where you start. Here's what you do. Here's what I think.
[00:51:18] Jonathan Zur: So we created as an organization what we called a "day after election guide" the idea being that we, yes, uh, we want organizations- we create one for schools, we created one for houses of worship, for higher education institutions- we want institutions to build trust and relationships before they're in a moment of conflict or crisis.
[00:51:39] And so I think that rethinking DEI from being this add on, this separate body of work, we'll do our DEI training, we'll think about these issues for a few hours, and then we'll go back to our day to day practice. And instead thinking about how does this get woven into the fabric of who we are is really critical.
[00:51:59] And then the other piece which really came up For us in Virginia, after the tragedy in Charlottesville in 2017 is a crisis is the worst time to try to build trust. So, what can we do to build trust and build relationships, have a foundation of vocabulary. We've helped some organizations to train employees to be facilitators so that if there is something that's in the news, a tragedy around bigotry or, some might say a political election could be a crisis, depending on how it turns out, you have facilitator, you have an infrastructure. People know there are going to be facilitators who help guide their next team meeting, or there are going to be facilitators available in the break room between this hour and that hour. So how do we build infrastructure so that we are not constantly playing catch up and reacting, but instead supporting our team in an ongoing way so that they are equipped not to always get along. It's not going to always be rainbow and sunshine and unicorns and glitter, but to have the ability to stay with it. I think that's really the key for where we are in this moment.
[00:53:02] Nicole: Mm. Fantastic. All right. Okay. So I have just absolutely loved having Jonathan on the podcast today. I'm very, very grateful for his time and his energy. He's a busy man. He's, he needs more time to write the book. Okay. Get the book cooking. Jonathan, let's go. All right. And so I've got down in the show notes where you can find him on Facebook, where you can find him on Instagram. And of course he is on the LinkedIn. You can find him there. And we just loved having you here. Is there any other way that people could get up with you other than on the social media that you might want to be willing to share with us?
[00:53:38] Jonathan Zur: Yeah, folks are welcome to go to the Virginia Center for Inclusive Communities website, which is inclusiveva. org, inclusiveva.org. We have a bunch of free resources and contact information. For me and for my colleagues, I work with a wonderful team and we'd be happy to support any of your listeners in their journeys.
[00:53:57] Nicole: All right. Everybody go down and press the little like button. It takes one hot second to do that and then leave a little love note for Jonathan. Tell him what you loved about what he shared today. Jonathan, thank you so much for being on the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast.
[00:54:11] Jonathan Zur: Thanks so much for the opportunity. It was a real treat to chat with you.
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