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Wondering why inclusive behaviours are a big deal or how they play into your workplace? Get ready for a no-holds-barred Q&A session where Marsha will be answering just that! We'll explore the importance of these behaviours, how we can develop them, and the role of Cultural Intelligence in it all.
Curated content, insights and opportunities to accelerate your career in Architecture, Design, Development and Real Estate to the next level.
Why are inclusive behaviours important in the workplace Ft. Marsha Ramroop
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[00:00:00]
Stephen Drew: Hello everyone. It's an evening one. It's gonna be important. Get your pen and paper. Heavy reflection. Gotta look into that ugly mirror. What are inclusive behaviors? I gotta tell you now I wanna spoil it. You just go away 25 more seconds.
I wonder how many of you have got a cheeky wine? I wouldn't blame you. Red Bull for me. The show goes on. In seconds.
Hello everyone and welcome to this livestream special. I'm so excited. This is like round two of learning because imagine it's [00:01:00] like the evening school of life and we're gonna learn all of the stuff that in the day you are too busy. 'cause you're either running a business, working as part of a team. Too busy to think about these stuff, but we're gonna stop.
Have a breather, have a cheek glass of wine if you want. Have a beer, have a coffee, whatever. But put, keep an open mind on the subject of what is inclusive behavior. I hadn't thought about this before. I wasn't sure what the term meant, but luckily I have someone who's very experienced in this area to decrypt and demystify the topic.
So if you would join me in the audience a little. Welcome to Marcia Rou. Marcia, how are you?
Marsha Ramroop: I'm good. I'm really relaxed. I've just had a couple of weeks away trying to sun myself maybe a bit too much sun. 'cause I was actually in Greece and in fact I was up by the Acropolis just a couple of days ago. A few days ago. And one more way down. And then we went up.
To the hill that's opposite. And [00:02:00] from that hill, which overlooks the whole of Athens, we could actually see a wildfire, which is about an hour south of Athens. It was like this crazy hot over there. I'm, it, I, we were there on one of the cooler days. It was a max of 36, which I have to say, I.
I'm okay in my husband and children less but my husband often says to me that I am just living at the wrong latitude, which is true.
Stephen Drew: My goodness. You're well, you're back now and
I'm so glad you're here, Marsha. In case someone hasn't seen the last video, I know we are doing a little little special all on the e d i inclusivity equality in Architecture. However, if anyone has met you, who are you first of all?
Marsha Ramroop: I what. My name's Marsha Re I can describe myself as an inclusion strategist. I have my own consultancy called Unheard Voice Consultancy Limited. And what we do is we work with organizations across the board, but I like to concentrate on Architecture in the [00:03:00] built environment because for me it's really important that the built environment.
Understands its role in how our physical spaces shape how we are with each other. So we need to have more diverse and inclusive thinking going into how we're shaping our built environment. And I go into organizations and try to assist them. We training strategy consultancy and behavioral cultural development so that more of our built environment organizations can do that.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, said. Okay, cool. So you have been, you've been in the trenches and you know a little bit about this so you can help me as well. 'cause I'm gonna be writing all this down as an employer myself. 'cause often in a business or a management position, you launched into this stuff. You have these tasks, you have these overheads.
You're dealing with all these things, something slip by the side, and actually they catch up to you in the end. So first of all, on [00:04:00] the topic, what is inclusive behaviors? What does that mean?
Marsha Ramroop: Yeah, it's a really good question and I like to start by saying inclusion isn't about other people and their characteristics. It is about us and our behaviors. So a lot of the time when we're talking about, e d i, equity, diversity, and inclusion people think it's a policy. They think it's about, having more.
Black and brown people in their organization. Maybe more women, and that's about as far as they think it, it goes. But no, it isn't about other people and what they're doing. It's about an introspective piece of work, which is what is it about me? What is it about my team? What is it about my organization?
What is it about my practice? What is it about my design that needs to change? So that it or I, or we can be more inclusive of you, whoever you are, because every individual is made up of so many different [00:05:00] identities. I'm sitting here, I'm a brown bi woman who has had mental health issues in the past.
I'm married in a heteronormative marriage. We have two children. I live outside of London, I've been privately educated. These are the, all these different layers of my identity. Which one of those are you going to look at first when you are trying to decide how you are going to include me?
Actually isn't about who I am. You need to look at who you are and look at your behaviors. One of the things about inclusive behaviors is that, It's entirely within your control. That's how we can make change is when we look in the mirror and we change our own worlds. Then we change the world, we change our circles of influence, we change how we influence them.
And so inclusive behaviors is about looking in the mirror and saying, what is it about me that needs to change so I could be more inclusive of you, whoever you [00:06:00] are.
Stephen Drew: Okay. Alright. That helps the setting now then that makes sense. So it is, part of this is looking inwards as well as outwards and okay. So we've decided what they are, but why are they important? Or and also, some people might not think that affects Architecture. So why? Why is inclusive behaviors important in the broad sense in terms of Architecture as well?
Marsha Ramroop: So the question I tend to then re-ask and say why it's important. What, why would anyone consider it not to be important? Someone show me the business case for not being inclusive and diverse and there isn't one. In terms of why it's important, there's so many different reasons.
So let's start with the. The basic one, the one that everyone talks about, the business case for inclusion. When you have an inclusive culture as well as a diverse workforce, then you have all the reports show [00:07:00] you outperform homogenous teams. That is teams of people who are more or less the same in terms of thinking and sometimes the way they look as well.
And Eight times more innovative, six times better business outcomes. But what that means is that inclusive behaviors that are required mean that we have to work harder at trying to understand each other in the way that we perspective take understanding people's different lived experience their backgrounds.
Their perspectives. And they're important because they bring about better business outcomes. The second thing is it's just about better staff within an organization say it's brings up better staff engagement. So if you have an inclusive culture and everyone's behaving inclusively, then people are more engaged in their work.
They wanna be there, they're happier, they're more productive in what they're [00:08:00] doing. And you just have happier employees. The third reason is because it's just the humanity. Way to show greater humanity for your fellow human being is to be inclusive of them. But really importantly to understand is this isn't something that necessarily comes naturally.
We don't automatically say, Behave in a way that is secure. So when I say secure, data secure or promoting health and safety. These are sometimes things that have to be taught to us and provided skills, but we know inherently, of course, it makes sense to have better data security or to promote health and safety where we work.
And promoting inclusive. Behaviors has to sometimes be taught. And when you understand what that means, then you can practice it and it becomes more natural to be able to do it. So it's important because there's a business [00:09:00] case, there's a staff engagement case, and there's the right thing to do to treat our fellow human in the right way.
However this doesn't always come naturally and it sometimes needs to be taught.
Stephen Drew: Yeah I agree.
Marsha Ramroop: You know what? I haven't answered why it's important in Architecture.
Stephen Drew: That's all right. It's seven o'clock. You've gotta, we gotta, it's, we're just chilling out. We're learning, but Okay. I can see it. A why, because Architecture, as much as the beautiful designs and the buildings at the end, There is a business behind Architecture to get there, and we touched upon it in our pre-chat as well, where, you know, of course we wanna do the beautiful buildings in the world have to look after people to get there.
We have to financially make sure things stack up and stuff. So it all gets muddled, doesn't it? However, you can expand upon it as well. Why do you think, Marsha, it's that it's very important to businesses then in Architecture.
Marsha Ramroop: There, [00:10:00] there are four parts to it. There's the, it's important that we attract a range of people to join our practices and to join the profession. And if you don't demonstrate inclusive behaviors, people from underrepresented groups those that are from, traditionally what people call a diverse range of o of groups aren't coming into the profession.
They're just not all this, our statistics show that we're underrepresented in every single demographic that is not white able-bodied, heterosexual men based in London. Every other group is underrepresented in the profession. When you look at trying to attract Non-white people.
Those who have declare anyway that they're disabled women actually women are being attracted, but they're leaving. But, so that's a different story. So white able bodied non heteronormative people and or those who are out anyway, and then [00:11:00] outside of London, then you start to look at okay.
All of those groups, how do we attract them in? It's got to be about the culture, and that's about inclusive behaviors. So we need to attract a range of people into the profession because if we don't have a range of people in the profession, then we don't have a range of ideas. And truly representative ideas of our wider population that we are building in.
So that's the first reason. So it's how we attract then how you treat progress and retain people in the profession. This is where the point about women, off ramping at various different stages because of the traditionally shall we say, misogynistic, sexist nature of the profession and the way it can be.
Especially in some of the larger more old fashioned practices. However, those are the ones that have the names, and so they, they get a, more attraction for, people wanting to start and progress their careers. But we know that, Women are leaving these [00:12:00] organizations. And so how we treat progress and retain them, it's all about inclusive behaviors.
And so then if you don't have the people coming into your practices and they're not staying, then how are you creating inclusive design? To some extent, anyone should be able to create inclusive design by following the kinds of. Great piece of work done by Paris Wilson and Jenny Rolin in creating the RIBA inclusive design overlay that just came out recently.
I. That's a fantastic piece of work for the RIBA plan of work that you can put over and say this is how we can do inclusive design. However, it would be more beneficial and remember that eight times more innovative outcomes from having a diverse team with inclusive cultures is going to have a more innovative approach.
To design and do things more inclusively out in the world. If you have inclusive behaviors to help drive that [00:13:00] psychological safety, to be able to challenge, innovate, learn, and create inclusively and then. You need inclusive behaviors to do the fourth bit of work, which is how you do your client and community engagement.
How you ensure that you are doing your procurement inclusively. So it's all that external stakeholder piece. You need inclusive behaviors to do that. So if you want to be an effective, successful ethical, inclusive, sustainable, and safe practice, I. Name me one practice that doesn't wanna do all those things.
And if they don't, then, they're not long for this world, I don't think. But you need inclusive behaviors in order to influence how you track people into your organization, how you treat progress and retain them. How you develop your design, your products and services, and how you engage your external stakeholders.
Inclusion, underpins and overarches, all [00:14:00] of that. So that's why it's important in Architecture.
Stephen Drew: I think what a compelling thought piece for it, if any, if anyone after that still doesn't think it's a priority that maybe their priorities need to be reevaluated. Now, okay, I'm sold on why it's important, however, we'll pretend again, I'm the busy businessman or I'm an Architect who set up a practice and.
Setting up a business is something that I've been doing as I go along, so I wouldn't even know where to begin half the time. In your opinion, Marsha, what do we need to do to start developing inclusive behaviors? Do you have any practical starting points that people should look at in your experience, which is effective and getting in that mindset?
Marsha Ramroop: It's funny you should ask that question Stephen
Stephen Drew: Apart from the obvious.
Marsha Ramroop: The key thing that we need to develop our inclusive behaviors is motivation. [00:15:00] Do you actually want to be inclusive? Now? I as you well know though, if you, I. You may not, but if you've not come across me before.
But cultural intelligence is the main thing that I talk about, and the reason why I talk about cultural intelligence so much is because all the evidence is out there that if you develop your cultural intelligence, you will behave inclusively. So the first, one of the first capabilities for cultural intelligence is motivation.
You'll drive. Are you persistent? Are you curious? Do you want to know and understand those who are different from you? And I'm aware that a lot of people say, yes, of course I want to do this. But when the stuff hits the fan, they just, Don't run away. There's a fear fact of getting it wrong.
There is defensiveness, you feel you're being accused of some ism, whether it's [00:16:00] racism or sexism or ableism or homophobia. And maybe you are being, maybe you are, quite rightly being called out for those things, but, That is an opportunity we must always see being called out for these things as an opportunity to learn and grow.
And I'm gonna be really upfront right now and say, I was called out for this just last week on LinkedIn, quite seriously. So I had a point to make about. The M O U that the Six Joint Institutes, the Built Environment were making some progress. There was a photo taken of them in a meeting.
Everyone in the photo bar, one person looked white. And that photo was called out for not being racially diverse. And I jumped into defend the work that was being done in the photo. And, but in my haste to do I got it wrong in the way that I expressed myself and [00:17:00] undermining the point that was being made about racial diversity by a black woman who whose voice, I was.
I, inadvertently was silencing by making my own point. And I never, no, no one very few people, shall we say, are set out to behave in that kind of way. But we all make mistakes. And what I had to be really clear about doing was calling out my own mistake and saying, I got this wrong. I. And this is how I got it wrong.
And how you develop inclusive behaviors is about understanding we're going to get it wrong and we mustn't be defensive about that. We have to acknowledge we've made a mistake. We have to listen to the feedback. We have to learn from that feedback. We have to reflect on how we are going to move forward differently and then resolve to do and so how we develop is about [00:18:00] practice. Practice. Practice. In fact, I'm gonna quote here. I've got a little, I've got loads of books up on my shelf above me. And this one is one of my favorites. It's strangers to ourselves discovering the adaptive unconscious. It's written by a guy called Timothy Wilson, and he's the person who says any given, he's done all the research and he aggregated all the research into how our brains work and how we.
Process information and he says, at any given moment, we have 11 million pieces of information going through our brain, but only the conscious capacity to process 40. Any given moment. So at any given moment, our brain is processing 10,999,960 bits of information, which we are completely unaware so we can act in biased ways.
To be human is to be biased, but what he also says is this, he says, the do good to be good principle. Is one of the most important lessons psychology has to offer. If you don't like something about [00:19:00] yourself or you are feeling down, it can be helpful to alter your behavior in a more positive way. To fashion a satisfying functional self narrative and to establish a desirable pattern of habitual non-conscious responses, the best advice is to practice practice.
So what do we need to develop our inclusive behaviors? We need to practice them and acknowledge when we get things wrong, listen to the feedback, not be defensive about it, and develop our cultural intelligence and then we can be more effective at developing our inclusive behaviors.
Stephen Drew: Okay. Wow. There you go. I would question whether I've got 40 conscious pieces going from my brain tonight. I think it's probably like 10. There you go. The concept I'm not disagreeing
Marsha Ramroop: That is the liberal estimate he says.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, exactly. I'll go for the minimal for me. Great. You touched upon again, cultural intelligence. I know we touched a little [00:20:00] bit on it before, however, before I met you, Marsha, I hadn't the clue what that actually meant. So for anyone else that's dipping into us, can you quickly refresh what is cultural intelligence?
'cause I think it's quite important.
Marsha Ramroop: It is hugely important. It's the backbone to inclusive behaviors because I always. Say, just reiterating inclusion isn't about other people and their identities. It is about us and our behaviors. So if we want to behave an inclusive way developing cultural intelligence is the way to do it.
And I, it's not just me saying that. There's 20 years of research behind the research question, which is what's the difference between those that succeed in today's multicultural globalized world and those that fail? What's the difference between those that succeed with working with those who are different from you and those that fail?
And just to be clear about what does it mean to succeed, that's is, have you. What you set out to achieve when working and relating across difference. And [00:21:00] when this question has now been asked in research across, I think it's 170 countries, and there've been surveys done of more than 250,000 people across the world, and the answer keeps coming back is that you need four capabilities to be culturally intelligent.
The actual definition of cultural intelligence is the capability to work and relate effectively with people who are different from you. So capability, it's something that's malleable, it's something can be improved, it's not set in stone. So that's the first thing. Capability to work. So it's functioning, it's the way that you go about do your day-to-day, but it's also relates, it's about relationships.
It's the way that you interact with others, so the capability to work and relate effectively. So effectiveness is a key part of cultural intelligence. Being able to, do so in a way that is actually going to get you to where [00:22:00] you wanna go. And then it's across difference. Cultural difference simply being, all visible and invisible difference.
So all diversity, so it's not just age. Gender, sex sexuality race, disability all the characteristics that might be described in the Equality Act of 2010 in the uk, but it's also, I. Do you have access to technology? Do you have a pri privately educated? What kind of educational background do you have?
Where in the country do you live? So all of these things are part of your effectiveness to work and relate across difference because say for example, you are working with people who don't have as much access to great. Wifi, is it really fair to ask them to work from home? So that's the kind of thing.
Or are you going to fund better broadband for their home if that's what you want them to do? These are the kinds of things that you need to think about if you're culturally intelligent. So cultural [00:23:00] intelligence is also measure as well as a skill. So it's also known as CQ because Q stands for quotient.
So sometimes I talk about cq which is the measure and cultural intelligence is the broader term. So how do you Divide that into the four capabilities. So the research has shown that if you have drive knowledge, strategy, and action, and you practice them and you work those up and you continually improve them, and you listen to the feedback and you're constantly open to learning and developing your cultural intelligence, then you will behave inclusively.
All the research stacks up to say you are effective at working relating cross difference. If you're high in cultural intelligence,
Stephen Drew: Okay. All right. Makes sense. So I'm I'm getting more and more open to it every time we talk. Now, there might be, let's play devil's advocate here. One or two people that are listening that that are sold an. Maybe they're looking at it, some people that are thinking, do [00:24:00] you know what? I just don't have time for this because I'm not too sure how this is relevant to Architecture, or where does it fit InDesign?
I'm doing all this technical stuff here. I've gotta get all those R O V A C P D points and all this stuff. But where do I begin with inclusivity and why is it relevant? So in your words, where does it fit into design? Marsham.
Marsha Ramroop: At every single part. What I would say is a truly inclusive Architect will not put pen to paper until they truly understand the context in which they're setting their piece. And the way that you you understand the context is by going. to the site and really experiencing, observing, talking to local businesses, communities, people about how they use that space.
What does it mean to them? What kind of impact would it have to [00:25:00] have anything being put in that space. And really acknowledging when people are Being defensive about it, what that means, why do they feel the way that they do about that? And when you are truly inclusive and listening to those voices, actually, I.
You might come up with a design that's completely different to what you had originally had in your mind when you were commissioned or someone approached you to put something into a space because that is what true innovation is. To be inclusive, safe, sustainable and ethical in how you do your work and listening to those voices that are very different from your own can really result in some amazing outcomes, not just for you and the way that you practice.
But for how things will then sit in a particular community. And in addition to that, you save your client a lot of money potentially because you're more likely to get through planning, [00:26:00] you are more likely to face fewer objections. That co. Co-creation piece. So I briefly mentioned a moment ago the RIBA inclusive design overlay, but there's another recent overlay to the RIBA plan of work which is towards spatial justice.
It's a co-design overlay and I would highly recommend that all practice, look at that overlay as well as a way of. Going about doing the co-creation community engagement piece for how you are going to place in any particular space because you are more likely to get through things like planning face few objections.
It's more likely to be sensitive to the environment and really understand The context in which it's being done. That is how it's important to Architecture because how we, like I said earlier, how we interact with each other as humans in our society is very much shaped by the space in which we inhabit.
You know this as architects, you absolutely know this, you know about [00:27:00] ceiling height and the width of a space, door size the feel of piece of material. How all of that makes you feel in a space is very much shaped by you and what you are doing. And surely you want that to resonate for the widest number of people as possible, not just your own idea of what makes a great aesthetic.
So it's got to be when you face those objections from those communities in which you're trying to place, it's because you've done something which makes them feel uncomfortable, that hasn't been inclusive and you can't please everyone all of the time. But what's important is when you don't.
When you face an objection that you have already considered, that you are able to articulate well for those people, that you understand that this is how you feel, but what you've taken into account is this piece. But you're doing things in this way because from the wider perspective, you need to be able to do things in this [00:28:00] particular way.
It's how you listen and respond to those objections in a thoughtful and considerate way rather than well. I'm sorry. It's just too late. We, we, we are not doing things that way anymore. It's all, that's all part of the community engagement piece.
Stephen Drew: Okay. All right. So we learned together, we're a community. We all people that knocking around and I agree. It's what you said makes so much sense. Now the drawings aside, putting the Revit model aside, that people are thinking they want to start getting to grips with this. Where can people find out more?
Marcia.
Marsha Ramroop: It's, I obviously gimme a call is all the first thing that you can do. Just checking out my website, unheard voice.co uk. I've got a blog on there which you can find out some more information, some thought leadership. Follow me on LinkedIn as well. But there's loads. There's just so much I would really highly recommend.
Please. I'm delighted of course, that the RIBA overlay for inclusive [00:29:00] design when Paris and Jenny and Alex Tate, who is one of the directors at RIBA and I sat down together two and a half years ago, whenever it was to start to think about that overlay. It was. It's just great to see it come to fruition because it's a really important piece of work for across the built environment to produce inclusive design.
But I always say again that the existence of procedures, policies, and practices don't ensure their use. What does is the behaviors. And the discipline to do so it starts with that introspective a piece of work. What is it about me that needs to change? How can I apply my new lens to what it is that I'm doing that's inclusive and decentering yourself when it comes to creating design so that you can do so in the most inclusive way.
And looking at that overlay and looking at the one towards spatial justice, also known as the co-design [00:30:00] overlay, are two really useful resources. And inclusive design is very much about looking at some other things out there. I, if I may, at this moment, I just wanna give myself a little shout out.
Stephen Drew: Go for.
Marsha Ramroop: Because I got this incredible email from Ukraine a few weeks ago, which said look we're our war heroes are coming back. With disabilities. We've got citizens here in Kyiv who have been badly affected by the war and the conflict. We want to rebuild our nation inclusively. Because we can't afford not to for these people.
And I got this email which said, we want you to help us to inspire us to do this more inclusively. Will you deliver a lecture for us on what we need to think about? And so I did that yesterday for the built environment of [00:31:00] Ukraine and built environment professionals. And there was more than a hundred people really wanting to understand what they need to do, what they need to think about.
So I talked about inclusive behaviors. I talked about bias first and inclusive behaviors, and then signposted to things like the RIBA overlay. And So on. And one of the other resources I pointed to was the global innovation design Hub I think it's called, and Global Innovation Disability hub.
And they have some amazing resources as well. But of course, none of these resources help you with the behaviors. If you want to become more inclusive in your behaviors, then please reach out to me because I can really help you with that.
Stephen Drew: Absolutely. I've seen it firsthand when I was part of the R B A Council, so I agree and I think it's important and keep going. Marsha, for all those unheard voices I. There you go. Out there. We need this in the industry. And that's why I really appreciate you as well [00:32:00] unpacking this over a series of, casual chats and so there's no judgment.
Yeah. If you dunno anything doesn't really matter. It's all about going forward. It's not about where you are now. It's about making an effort. And that's the way I see it. And you are right. The bit that resonated with me, particularly this evening is that. Mistakes happen all the time. I must make mistakes all the time.
When I was working in an Architectural practice, I made lots of mistakes. As a business owner, I do them all the time, but it's just picking it up, changing it, adjusting it, thinking what can I do better and moving on rather than I. Head in the sand continuing it. So on that basis, if people want to change, I think that they should definitely message you and get in touch with you on at your website, which I'm gonna read out for the audio listeners 'cause they don't get the video as well.
So that's something I've been picking up and doing lately. So the link will be www dot unheeded voice co [00:33:00] uk so you can find marsh there. Check out Marsha Ram Ru on LinkedIn. Thank you so much, Marsha, for being here. Before I end the stage, is there anything else you'd like to add or are you just, you gonna, you gotta calm down after your holiday now, isn't it?
Come back to the real world.
Marsha Ramroop: Back to the real world, back to the grindstone, and yeah, hopefully continue to try to make change in the built environment.
Stephen Drew: You're doing a good job. We'll keep it up. Thank you so much Marsha, and to you who are watching the replay or if you tuned in. Thank you so much for being here. Marsha's gonna join us in one or two upcoming podcasts as and when. Give us a moment though. Marsha's just come back from holiday and I'm running around.
Just absolutely. Unscripted. I need someone to organize my calendar. But we will be back with one or two more topics as well. Marsha, thank you. It's been a privilege and I'm gonna end the live room now, but stay on the stage and you and the audience have a lovely evening or morning wherever you are.
Take care. Bye-bye.
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