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Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Over:
Speaker 2:Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to longtime listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 1:One thing I didn't bring up to you last time, do you remember that you and I well, we started and I started camping together once every fall. And then, like, the second time we went, I think you and Tess went with us. And then you went another and you went once and then you and Melanie came once. And then when all of those relationships started going away for us. Do you remember that like two or three years?
Speaker 1:I think it was maybe three. You and I camped together?
Speaker 3:Yes. Mhmm. Love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. And so we continued through that process and through the pulling away from we continued I think the last time we camped together, what year did you start being interested in the church? Because I think the last time we camped together, I know you did tell me you were gonna join the church.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's right.
Speaker 1:And you told me all of those pieces. And when when was that?
Speaker 3:I what I remember about that was that was one of the moments that defined our friendship for me because you were so willing to listen to what I was excited about and what I was learning for me, but you didn't have to take it into you. And Mhmm. You could share what you did not agree with without shaming what I was excited about.
Speaker 1:And I remember I did have to ask you. I remember because I didn't wanna upset you about it but I did have to say, is this resonating with you because of your past with cult behavior? Is this resonating with you? And that's before I learned some more about them church, but, you know, does it have that same feeling? Is that why you're comfortable there?
Speaker 1:And you said no. No. That's not that's not the connection. You know?
Speaker 3:I think I I feel like for me, that conversion experience, that was a process. I don't mean a moment in time, but that process for me was such a transformation that was about something I chose for the first time on my own and investigated on my own, and no one, even them, told me what to believe. What they all said was ask for yourself. Like, pray yourself, study yourself, and decide what you think. And the only part that was a cop out, which is not the right word, but it's the one I'm gonna use, that related to my past was that I will be very honest and say that I appreciated that because of how the temples are that my parents could not come to my wedding.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting. Well, and yeah. And a lot of special things that you may have thought you were gonna have at some point in your life, they couldn't. Oh.
Speaker 3:Yes. And so I appreciated and felt safe that somehow I was able to worship without them at all in any way interfering because they literally didn't have access to the buildings.
Speaker 1:There you go. Yeah. So Yeah. That was
Speaker 3:maybe the only piece. The other things were just all good for me both internally and then, you know, I mean, it cleaned up my drinking and that that was never out of control, but I saw how close it got to out of control because of the people that were around me. And so I think it helped give me structure and boundaries when no one in my life had done that really besides you.
Speaker 1:Well, and also at that time, one person we didn't talk about that was important in your life that we didn't talk about last time was his name was
Speaker 3:Oh, yes.
Speaker 1:Because you made that you made that conversion still living with him and getting very, very sick.
Speaker 3:Yes. Yes. I was getting very sick at the time. I just by the way, this is an aside, but I just had my cardiac checkup, and I'm good for another for a whole other year. I only have to go every year now.
Speaker 3:Like Good. Everything is just good. My daughter is good. I am good. Our children are healthy.
Speaker 3:Like, it feels good.
Speaker 1:My gosh. That's amazing.
Speaker 3:But yes, I was living with him at the time and to be able to join the church because he he actually knew more about the church than I did and had actually studied it before I did, but chose not to join. And because he chose not to join, I had to move out to be able to join.
Speaker 1:Well, but that relationship went a little bad too, it seems like.
Speaker 3:Because of alcohol.
Speaker 1:Because you quit and he kept?
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay. And then you got sick and the whole time you were sick, I think I remember that you were in a different room. You weren't in the bedroom with him.
Speaker 3:Right. I
Speaker 1:had And you were in a different room, and he did some really crappy stuff, like some of your new friends at the church would bring you food and stuff, and he would, like, eat it.
Speaker 3:And He also and this is an example of things I did not realize until hindsight how bad it was, but he also had hidden cameras all over the house. And I don't mean, like, Ring cameras or something for security or like, we use them. We have a Ring camera in the kitchen. So when the children steal food, we know who to talk to. About you can actually just eat without stealing.
Speaker 3:Like, we love you. Attachment. Attachment. Attachment. Foster care.
Speaker 3:Yay. But he had hidden cameras that I didn't know about until later. And
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:All kinds of super creepy things that I didn't realize were wrong because of the things I had already been through in the past that were so normal to me, like trafficking for less of a lack of a better word. That was so normalized for me that even once I knew, I didn't realize until later how bad that was.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Are you realizing a lot now that you're raising kids too?
Speaker 3:That's actually been a huge piece of the last year. In fact, it's part of what makes what happened last fall such a disaster because I was in significant crisis this spring as was four, almost five. I had the twins turning eight. I had the triplets turning 12, And my oldest daughter got her first period. And all kinds of things happened developmentally that were super triggering and brought a lot to the surface.
Speaker 3:And it was really, really difficult because I did not have a therapist. That being said, I had a series of really good therapists who in only a few sessions gave me enough to hold on to that literally kept me alive through the spring and the summer. And I so grateful. I don't know if they understand. I will just say a shout out to Susan in Missouri, who I only saw like three times.
Speaker 3:But because of her work, like that kept me alive. And I have a good therapist now. I am talking to her about and what happened last fall. And, like, she's one I'll be able to keep long term. I don't have to change anymore.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh.
Speaker 3:And she lets me do a lot of writing, which seems to be a safer way for me to process a lot of things for all kinds of reasons in my history.
Speaker 1:Well, I did that with Rachel. I was doing the equivalent of everyday therapy because of how much I was writing and she was responding. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It really is. It really has been helpful. So that's good now but it's been a very difficult year.
Speaker 1:Okay. But yeah, I mean, I think sometimes when you can be the parent instead of the kid, you get you get flashes of, well, I would never do that with my kid. You know, I would, wow. You know, that's how children are. That means that's how I was at that age and.
Speaker 3:That's huge realizing oh my goodness that's what eight looks like. Oh my goodness that's what four looks like. That never could have been my fault. I was four.
Speaker 1:Exactly. I left that cult piece not until I mean, Joe and I were never active in it but we would still go to the yearly conference and the year that we could take Sky to the conference, I he told me some things that they did that night or something. And I went home and told Joe, oh, hell no. You know? No.
Speaker 1:I'm not repeating this with my kids. I no. This is over. And that's when I could break away because I could see where he was gonna go with it. And I didn't want him to have that experience in his life around his spiritual out you know, his spiritual life and everything.
Speaker 1:And so only until I saw what it was gonna do to my child could I say, oh hell no. Mm-mm. And at the same time, that made me realize everything that it did to me when my parents didn't start till I was, like, 12. But still, I was able to see that, oh, man. You know?
Speaker 1:They had indoctrinated us with, like, some crazy shit. You know?
Speaker 3:And you're talking about a Christian church. When you say cult, like you're talking specifically about a Christian church with some specific doctrine. Not even like crazy out there in the woods kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Right. Exactly. I'm talking about things that it's on a cult list, like a list of cults in The United States. It's on that list. But most people, if I mean, if I told my parents that was a cult, they would just think I was crazy for saying that, you know?
Speaker 1:So, yeah, it's it's very mainstream. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I think that there are moments where when you're a survivor in any kind of way, whether it's abuse or something like what you went through with that church, there are moments where you so intentionally parent the opposite of what was done to you. And then there are those moments like what you had with your son where it's a flashback or a not a flashback, but a flash of insight of
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Oh, I see what this really is, and I see what 12 looks like or eight or four. And, no, this stops with me.
Speaker 1:And, yeah, like, think about it. When you were six or whatever you like, why were you in the woods by yourself? You know? Or, you know, just things like that. Why would you be, why would those things happen?
Speaker 1:And now you know, you know, when you have a six year old, you know, we don't take them out to the woods and you know, I mean, or whatever. You know, you just know those are things you don't do. Then yeah. And to be able to look at your children and go, yeah, six year olds really aren't capable of understanding or or or, you know, that's not developmentally correct for them.
Speaker 3:Do you know there is something magical about where we live now that feels like a return to the best part of those years but reclaiming them from everything that was so awful? Because we live in the country now, in the woods, on a hill, with animals all around, so everything's covered in chicken wire. And, like, just thinking about what all of those symbols mean to me and what that has meant to us in the past and reclaiming that and seeing my children play happy and free and realizing we really are safe and here's evidence of it and what our childhood should have been like all along.
Speaker 1:And you're building a new like a new framework of living in the woods, you know? Yes. Or living in the country. That's all new built on your new positive experience. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think there are those things you have to reclaim. And and it's awesome that instead think about how far you've come that instead of it just being a crazy panic trigger, it can now become a good thing, you know, and a wonderful thing. And that means just like when you said you had to you chose the church because it was 100% yours. Well, you know, now you're making living in the country in a more remote area. 100% yours instead of what it was before for you.
Speaker 3:Exactly. It's so powerful and it's been so amazing. And even Nathan, who is not a country boy, mister New York Yeah. Has loved it in ways he never knew that he would.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I didn't mean to go all off topic tonight. Were there other things on the timeline or other things you had thought of that you specifically wanted to address? Not that this is our last time to talk ever.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But, you know, there are some things I that I mean, that I don't know where you want to go with them, but, like, have you done work around having two children or before? Do you know that piece?
Speaker 3:It's there in my awareness that I am sometimes aware of. Okay. It's we have talked to the outside kids as far as Nathan and I having conversation with the children we have adopted, that there were other children before them and that some of them were foster children and that some of them were adopted children and that some of them did not survive.
Speaker 1:Okay. But but But not
Speaker 3:in therapy. I haven't had a chance. Like, by the time I can talk to a therapist, they've either left me or something's gone terribly wrong.
Speaker 1:But if I'm asking you about
Speaker 3:Kelsey and Yes. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. And and now you're a little her name goes right with them. Yeah. But no, but you haven't been able and you know, I'm just gonna tell you, no, I never met those two girls but I was around you a lot when you were making decisions when you kind of saw them and didn't see them, you know, and kind of in and out of their life when they were being adopted and everything. And Emily, I always thought you handled that really well.
Speaker 3:That will make me cry.
Speaker 1:I always thought you did you did right by them, and you could separate what you knew was best for them at that time in your life. Yeah. I always thought you you did well with that.
Speaker 3:Thanks. Yeah. That's hard stuff.
Speaker 1:I know. But it was and it was very hard at the time. But but also, it is for everyone that has to make that decision. That didn't have anything to do with DID or anything. Well, except that that was part of your life then but I mean, that was that's just a, you know, a hard heart decision to make and yeah and for anyone and so, it being a hard thing for you is very normal.
Speaker 3:I think part of what has kept it so hard is that I've not had anyone to ever talk about it with. You were there and you know, and so that kind of processing. But, I mean, it's an area of my like, for example, I have a friend now whose mom was also killed in a car accident. And that has been healing in ways I didn't know I needed. I have not ever been close friends with someone who lost a child to adoption or whose child died or Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Who had miscarriages. Mhmm. And so I think when the miscarriages came, that's part of why we were so open with them and talked about it so publicly and found out so many people have miscarriages.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:But as far as having a child die or having to give up children for adoption, we've not ever had anyone who understood what that was like that was also our friend. We've had some peripheral experiences with seeing people tell their story or talk about it a little bit but no one that ever chose us back as a friend. And so Yeah. There's never been an opportunity to talk about that. And in therapy, it's an example of one of the long list of things that we can never get to because it takes us so long to talk and so long to actually get into things, and then we don't get to keep them, the therapist, I mean.
Speaker 1:So Yeah. And that is the thing. There is something to being able to work through everything. And I knew when I was done, when I had done everything. And I couldn't stop until I did.
Speaker 1:And so and I and I kind of think you'll be like that too. That you'll have to get to it at some point. But it just does take time. Yeah. And when you have to start over with people it's like dang, you have to bring them up to speed now, you know?
Speaker 3:It's exhausting.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure. I'm sure. Because it's like, I've worked through all of this but they have to know it.
Speaker 1:Except I see a therapist here and what's interesting is I have not gone over my whole past with her, you know? So it's kind of interesting that I haven't had you, but I think that's because I did my whole past.
Speaker 3:I feel like we have had good enough, solid enough quality DID therapists that we have kind of gotten to the point of we know things like how to get to know each other and how to communicate if we have to and how to get grounded and how to know who's there and what to do when they're there, how to meet each other's needs and how to work together and things like that. And Yeah. We have now, with the help of the therapist those last few years Mhmm. I feel like I kind of have an outline of the past. And so it's almost like I finally have the list of what I need to do, but I've not had opportunity to do it yet.
Speaker 3:But having that outline is progress, and knowing what DID is is progress. And knowing why DID is the thing, that's progress.
Speaker 1:Do you still do you still switch some, or is it just an awareness of other the others are there?
Speaker 3:They're switching. What has happened with the changes in the last year is that there has been, like, a domino effect of struggling because the two friends I have well, the three friends. Okay I'm trying to be really really careful I have maybe four friends now which for me is a big big deal.
Speaker 1:Yeah
Speaker 3:okay one of them is a professional that treats DID people, but I met him in a professional setting, not as my therapist. Never has been my therapist. And so it's super fun to have him as a friend because number one, he's my first friend that I've ever had that's besides Nathan, that's like a guy who is safe and a male figure and consistent in my life. And he's been my friend maybe two years now.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:His name is Peter. So that is a real gift in my life, and I'm grateful for him. But usually, we talk about nerd things. Yeah. Which is fine.
Speaker 3:But also, I don't want him to feel like he has to work all the time. So I feel like we work really hard to give a consistent front, so to speak, if that makes sense. Yeah. The other friend I have also has DID, and so interacting with that friend, all kinds of things happen. And so you never know.
Speaker 3:But that's that's just her stuff and my stuff. And then my other two friends are people who do not have DID.
Speaker 1:And do all those people know that you deal with DID?
Speaker 3:Yes. All three of them know.
Speaker 1:Okay. Okay. Wow.
Speaker 3:I know. That's a big deal. Right?
Speaker 1:That's huge. That's huge.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It is huge. And they're very accepting and I have never felt judged or anything by any of them. I was very careful in choosing who was my friend, but those two ladies are the ones that both know the therapist.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 3:And so because of that, they never talk about her, which is fine. I respect that, and I get that. And I know that they're trying to protect everybody, protect her and protect me. Yeah. But but also, as I said earlier, it has been a huge piece of my life grieving all of what happened last fall
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And not being able to share that with them because of the boundary. So I can't talk about the therapist, and they don't talk about the therapist.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:But that was, like, my entire life. And so therapy. And so to not be able to talk about that or transition makes it really hard because before, I shared some things about therapy, and now I can't at all. And, also, I don't want them to feel like if I shared things about therapy, that I'm trying to get them to talk about her or trying to ask for help with her or something like that. And so because I have to be so careful about that, there has been this huge shutdown that has actually made my real therapy hard because it's like all the brick walls are up, and we will not let anyone talk to anyone.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:And so it's made it hard. Like, I've tried really hard to hang on in the ways that I could, and I can send a message of, like, good morning. How was your day? And try to learn how to do those things that are important to people who live on time. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:But before, we could switch with those people, and it was not a big deal. It was safe. They rolled with it. I tried to manage it, like and it was fine. But now it's like that's not allowed anymore.
Speaker 3:And so it's Oh. Like taken away.
Speaker 1:Why is that not allowed?
Speaker 3:It's an internal perception because it connects back to the therapist.
Speaker 1:Okay. But that was a part of you before that therapist was ever part of your life.
Speaker 3:Yeah. But that's how far away we have to stay from that boundary because here's what the risk is as a survivor. If I am at all seen as breaking the rules, I lose them. That doesn't mean it's truth. That's my experience, which is what I found this quote about, which if I were in my house, would read it to you.
Speaker 3:I can send it to you later.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:But connection for me in my brain, which they can now even see on MRIs actually as of this summer, part of my brain that connects with people is not even there. And so trying to connect with people actually feels dangerous and backfires as far as my internal experience. It doesn't feel good. It feels scary. So trying to pace that and trying to tolerate that is really, really hard, and it's not always safe.
Speaker 3:And now these were my people who were safe. I was tolerating it. But now because I am the secret, meaning they accept that they know because I didn't want it to be a secret. I didn't want to feel like a secret. I didn't want them to tiptoe around me.
Speaker 3:So I just told them straight up, this is my diagnosis. She was my therapist for that. I'm getting different therapist. She's not my therapist anymore. But because of that, I can't talk about any of those things, which includes DID, which includes me, which includes switching.
Speaker 3:Like, it's all associated.
Speaker 1:Is it maybe associated in your mind?
Speaker 3:I don't know because I can't talk about it with them. Because
Speaker 1:Because I see that as a piece of you. And regardless of who your therapy is, that's a real thing for you. And if they accepted it before, they'll accept it now too. You're just not gonna cross the boundary and talk about
Speaker 3:Well, I I know that they're accepting of the DID and they're accepting of me, but all the parts of me are struggling with that piece. And so if Yeah. I let them connect with them, that's what they're gonna talk about, and they can't talk about it with them. Does that make sense? It's not the DID piece in the way.
Speaker 3:It's how the DID gets expressed.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And so to keep my friends safe, to keep the therapists safe, and to keep us safe, I can't engage at all.
Speaker 1:You do know that you're not in charge of keeping your friends safe or keeping you safe.
Speaker 2:No. I don't know that. Thanks a lot.
Speaker 1:No, you're not in charge of their safety because they all seem like healthy people and you've said they all have boundaries and everything. They've all set that, you know, that they're good and healthy. You're not in charge of of keeping them safe. They keep themselves safe.
Speaker 3:This is a huge piece of where I'm really tangled right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I don't keep Joe safe. Right. And I don't avoid things that are happening in my life to keep him safe, You know? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You're not in charge of their safety. They're in charge they're adults, so they're in charge of their own safety. You are in charge of your children's safety, but you're not in charge of Nathan's safety.
Speaker 3:No. He can keep himself safe. I see that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, of course, that doesn't mean you don't do things to help them, you know, and everything, but you're not in charge of their safety. Yeah, you're not. And I I think maybe you I think probably part of what you carry is that you are in charge of everyone else's safety too that you and I think maybe do you think that you have to keep them safe from you?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because there's nothing dangerous about you. There's nothing there's you are not a dangerous person. I think you might think you are because so many relationships went toxic. But remember what we talked about that all of those people, you were attracted to them, and they were ready to pull you in because of the frenzy of meeting each other's needs.
Speaker 1:But oh. Oh, yeah. And because I have this experience because I remember telling Rachel, you know, some of my friendships compared to Joe seem boring. It just doesn't seem like it's gonna be the same. She said it's not gonna be because you're not meeting each other's needs.
Speaker 1:You're each you're all adults. She said, this relationship, I don't even know what relationship I was talking about at the time. But I was like, I really love this person but it doesn't seem as as intense or as driven or as I don't know. Just this high level of something that now I'm calling frenzy. And she said but you know Jeannie that's not really how relationships healthy relationships are.
Speaker 1:There's not the frenzy. There's not that going around in circles with each other because so, yeah, you're not in charge of their safety and you weren't dangerous and most likely you didn't come into these friendships in that crazy mode. Right?
Speaker 3:I didn't mean to.
Speaker 1:No. I don't think you did.
Speaker 3:The only thing that was intense well, the only thing that was intense was because her son was sick and my daughter was sick. There was some intensity with that, but that was the experience, not the drama between us. It was a drama we were both dealing with.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I get that. And that's an awesome piece. It's awesome to have someone in your life that understands that experience by living that experience. So, and that's an intense experience.
Speaker 1:So there you go. You know?
Speaker 3:But also our friendship is not based on that. Like when we connect, it's not about our children. It's just something that we also share in common. And I have had to look at that piece very carefully because I didn't want our friendship to be based only on that. And so but it's not.
Speaker 3:It it's not at all. It's a part of our lives. It's a part of her life, a part of my life. It's something we share in common, but our friendship is not based on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, I mean, you're not in charge of keeping them safe and you are not dangerous. You're not dangerous and and any of your alters may have been dangerous at times to yourself because maybe they didn't do things that were the healthiest or the safest to do but even none of them were dangerous to other people. I mean, you're you're you're not a dangerous person and so, you don't have to keep yourself like hold pieces of yourself because it's going to hurt them or it's going to scare them or it's going to freak them out. If they're healthy people, which it sounds like they are, it's it's not gonna that's not gonna do that.
Speaker 1:You're not scary. You're not scary. Do you know that you're not scary?
Speaker 3:I think that the big breakthroughs that have been the most powerful things for me have come in the last year, which is always interesting. Right? That you learn so much from grief when you just think it's only gonna be hard, but then actually you really are transformed.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:One of the biggest pieces was that this summer, there was research that came out. This MRI research I was talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Where this is actually significant for you and your life. Research came out this summer through like MRI, like actual science, not just psychological studies or theories, but hard science with MRIs and measurable stuff because, you know, we always get accused of being a soft science.
Speaker 1:It's Soft science. Yeah. You know, I'm on a college campus now too, so I'll hear that too.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:That's not real science. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right. Except that less and less, like, it's not as soft as it used to be. Like, there's so much they can study in the brain now. And so one of the
Speaker 1:just over the last decade in education, how much we learned about teaching and learning based on the new things they know about the brain.
Speaker 3:Yes. Yeah. And one of the things that came out this summer is that they have been able to measure and track to a DNA level that relational trauma, so even what you went through, not just physical or sexual abuse, but relational trauma is actually more damaging than physical or sexual abuse.
Speaker 1:I have heard that, and I don't know if I've just heard it, like, from your blog or if I've read it other places. That yeah. I I have heard that piece. Have you blogged about that? Has that come out in your blogs?
Speaker 3:I think I wrote about it in the Polyvagal article about COVID and what why we all feel like we do.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think that's probably where I heard it too.
Speaker 3:But it was a huge piece for me. And then seeing the MRI scans and learning how the brain responds to those pieces. And I'm learning right now in these classes with ISSTD about betrayal trauma that, like, the degree I'm not saying this right scientifically, so please, please don't quote me. But, like, the degree of dissociation is almost congruent with, like, the degree of betrayal involved. So, like, being raped by a stranger is a terrible, terrible thing and absolutely causes PTSD or whatever other struggles that come with that because it's bad.
Speaker 3:I'm not saying that it's not bad. Right. But using dissociation specifically as a response to that trauma has to do with the betrayal of someone who is supposed to be your caregiver.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:Because you can't escape a caregiver and a caregiver doesn't go away. Someone who is a rapist, like, goes away. The trauma doesn't go away. The impact is still terrible. I'm not at all minimizing that.
Speaker 1:But you're not developing a trail with that person.
Speaker 3:Is that what you're And your life does your survival doesn't depend on staying with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so learning that and the impact of how important that was and that the impact of the change it caused in my brain and not that that's forever, like I can work on healing that but it's not through like toxic positivity of believing that everything's okay. That's actually part of the betrayal trauma, which is why that stuff is so triggering to me
Speaker 1:because Oh, yes.
Speaker 3:I am still in the place of saying, no. It wasn't okay. So stop telling me to just think that everything's okay and to to believe words that say that people are good or people are safe or that I am loved and I am whatever because the evidence doesn't match it. And until the evidence matches it, I can't say it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I totally get that.
Speaker 3:So it kind of goes back to sort even what you went through with the church, for example. All of those things count as that kind of stuff. So this was a huge huge piece for me. And I feel like it leads into what you are trying to tell me, but I'm not quite there yet. So it feels like it slips through my fingers like sand.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Yeah. I get that. Because you have to you have to experience the shift before the words can match. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You have to have an experience of those words of the shift before the words can be correct. Right?
Speaker 3:Right. So these friends came up for my birthday. And as you know, I just I don't do birthdays really. And but to them it was very important. And so they tried to surprise me actually and Nathan was like
Speaker 1:oh no no no no
Speaker 3:no no no no. Do not do that. And so I felt terrible because that was so important to them but I do know that it is their language And so because I care about them, I like navigated that of this is important to them so we will do this for them and they will feel like they are loving me and that is special. But it was actually really hard and unpleasant for me other than I was glad to see my friends and so that
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:That was good. But it was also hard not because of anything they did wrong but because of my past issues and this piece of connection feeling dangerous. So that intense of a connection came with that intense of a danger response. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so I was struggling with that after the birthday, and someone said to me about how, of course, they love me, and I should be grateful because da da da da da and like a list of the evidence of how much they care about me. But at the time, I was in the middle of the pandemic, four hours away from my friends. I can't see them even if I were close because of the pandemic. One of them I had not heard from at all since then so that felt weird and I was just talking about how hard it was to endure that, not judging it for being wrong. It was actually really really good for me and I was proud of me for showing up and doing that because Right.
Speaker 3:There's no way I would have let anyone else do that. There's no way. Like that's just a hard thing for me and I was proud of me for doing it but I also had to acknowledge how hard it was. But when I got just you need to be grateful, it felt like like this is not a gratitude issue but because that's what you're being told as truth then it feels like you're I'm wrong. I'm failing this.
Speaker 3:I'm I can't do I'm doing it wrong. But what I learned right after that at that conference was my brain just can't do it yet. And so it me from that in understanding that neurologically my brain can't process that just like my son with autism can't process other things.
Speaker 1:Okay. That makes perfect sense. Wow. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1:You have to live into that experience, and you can know it. Now you can know that it's safe and everything, but your the truth is for you that there's a danger there too and so you just have to at some point, something will shift there for you and I think that's part of like really doing the hard work of therapy is just you have to trust the process, and you have to be okay with that you can't that that's not where you are now.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:And that someday, you probably will be there, and but you don't know what that will look and feel like. I remember Rachel telling me, you know, there's a really good chance, Jeannie, that you're gonna do your work and you're not going to have these weird like, well, like, feelings, like, about your parents. Like, I'm supposed to love them because they were really good to me but really, I hate them on some level and I'm angry at them at some level but really, I also know they did the very best they could. They did better than their parents, you know, cause I had all those pieces and she said, there's gonna come a time that everything's gonna become okay with your parents. I and you know what?
Speaker 1:That happened. You know, and just it doesn't matter anymore. It's I did my work and I'm fine with my parents now. I mean, we're not, like, emotional and huggy kissy and everything. But, you know, I I have a real appreciation of the relationship now.
Speaker 1:And I don't know how that happened. I don't know exactly when it did, but I believed her that probably at some point it would. And I also just thought, well, if I could just get to neutral with them, that would be good. You know? And then I got to neutral and then I went beyond, but I had to live into that and I don't even know when it happened.
Speaker 1:You know? It was just so, yeah, I totally get that. And I think mine's my issue was at a lesser degree, but I think I do understand what you're saying. So, yeah, if you just can't yet, then you can't. And you know what?
Speaker 1:That's not because you're not doing enough therapy or anything. That's because your brain can't do that yet.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But we know that brains aren't set. Brains change. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right. Which is why I have to stay in therapy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 3:That was none of what I thought we were gonna talk about tonight. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:What did you wanna talk about? Did you wanna talk was there were there any questions that you had, like, things that weren't quite clear that we talked about before?
Speaker 3:I don't think so. It just there's just so much, and I'm so grateful to actually be able to connect with you. I know that that is hard to happen. So when it does, I'm like, here. Everything right now.
Speaker 3:Go.
Speaker 1:No, it's okay. You know, I live a pretty quiet life here, especially since pandemic, you know. So, yeah. So I'm pretty open to that, but yeah, it seemed like there was a piece in there that there was it seemed like to me that there was a piece that got really kind of fuzzy, but I think it was because of the piece that I wasn't actively in your life. I just heard the stories.
Speaker 1:But it was interesting to me that you text me later that the piece made you really sad. It was really hard.
Speaker 3:I think just because what I recognize it now is a betrayal when for so many years I just felt crazy. And so it's like an extra wound of like, how dare you? For thirty years I thought this was my fault and it was not my fault at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It hasn't been quite thirty but
Speaker 3:Twenty. Twenty
Speaker 1:years. Oh my gosh. But yeah. Okay. That I can see where that went.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Okay. Well, I will let you go for tonight, but thank you for talking to me and letting me record it
Speaker 2:to speak about.
Speaker 1:You think of things and your processing, feel free to shoot text to me or whatever. Okay. Okay? Well, I love you, and I love reconnecting with you. So
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 3:Good night.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemsspeak.com. We'll see you there.