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Welcome to EdTech Adventures. Join us as we explore the role of technology, STEM, and creative play in education. With expert guests, we’ll discover how learning is always an adventure.
EdTech Adventures: Equity-Centered Design with Sheryl Cababa
[00:00:00] Charlotte Cheng: Welcome to EdTech Adventures. Join us as we explore the role of technology, STEM, and creative play in education. With expert guests, we'll discover how learning is always an adventure. Equity-centered design is no easy task. It takes an extra level of research, iteration, storytelling, persistence, and so much more.
[00:00:24] Charlotte Cheng: Given everything else that must be considered in EdTech development, how can we practically and effectively design learning experiences with equity in mind. Today, our guest Sheryl Cababa will share her experience and advice on implementing equity center design for projects, both big and small. Sheryl Cababa is the Chief Strategy Officer at the Insights Design and Development Studio, Substantial, and a multidisciplinary design strategist with more than two decades of experience.
[00:00:52] Charlotte Cheng: Her recent work with the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation includes leading student voice research to inform the K 12 Balance the Equation Grand Challenge. Her book, Closing the Loop, Systems Thinking for Designers, was released in early 2023. Thanks so much for joining our podcast, Sheryl.
[00:01:08] Sheryl Cababa: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk to you.
[00:01:11] Charlotte Cheng: Me too. All right. Let's start at the beginning of your journey. Could you describe a memorable education experience that you've had as a student?
[00:01:19] Sheryl Cababa: My background is actually not in design. My degrees are in political science and in journalism. And I think in high school, I was working on our student paper, and this is before we actually used entirely digital tools.
[00:01:37] Sheryl Cababa: So we were kind of like cutting and pasting articles and I was like laying out the pages and things like that. And I was so interested in that activity, which is like, now that I'm talking about it, I realized this was connected to my eventual work as a designer. I just kind of like would sometimes skip my other classes and things like that in order to work on this other thing.
[00:01:59] Sheryl Cababa: And I realized. It was almost like project based learning for me, even though I didn't go to school that did anything like project based learning and realized like, Oh, that's where like a lot of my interests lie. The fact that I wanted to do this all the time, being a very supportive advisor. And I think that sort of built up to what I ended up doing professionally. I ended up eventually working at the Seattle Times as a graphic designer and then sort of pivoted into tech after that because I taught myself how to code and it was sort of like a formative experience that allowed me to understand that. There are ways that I could follow my interests and do what I wanted to do without waiting for somebody to tell me how to do it.
[00:02:46] Sheryl Cababa: So I think that's probably at least one very formative experience at school.
[00:02:52] Charlotte Cheng: You know, that just makes me realize that my career as well has just been a series of project-based learning assignments. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Is that what that is? Like you started with that newspaper clipping journal and all this and you're like, you know what? I just want to learn via projects for the rest of my life.
[00:03:10] Sheryl Cababa: Yeah. Yeah. There's something about that structure. I think as you say that, that is my whole career. I mean, it's one of the reasons I'm currently a consultant because I can do different projects at the same time, or I can move from project to project.
[00:03:25] Sheryl Cababa: And by the time I'm kind of losing interest in a project, I get to move on to something else. And I'm just kind of like, Oh, and then I get to learn all new things. And, you know, I was for many years, a consultant with design companies like frog and what have you right now I'm with a small company called Substantial.
[00:03:44] Sheryl Cababa: And we pretty much specialize in the domain of education, but previously I would be working in all sorts of sectors. I'd be working in like the automotive sector. For four months, and then I'd be working in healthcare and then I'd be working with Ikea. And it was just like, I don't know if I'm just very short attention span, but I really respond to that, this idea of like getting to deep dive into something for a very confined period of time.
[00:04:12] Sheryl Cababa: And then kind of like moving on and like doing deep dive into something else. And so I think that in high school, that was like my first introduction to that. It was like working on this, like producing this like student newspaper. And yeah, I think that's had an impact in how it's shaped how I realized I like to learn.
[00:04:29] Charlotte Cheng: I think that's why I love the startup space because most roles you're wearing many hats and juggling different projects. Like you said, you can jump from one to the other and you're learning as you're doing. So it sounds interesting that you were working with things like Ikea, which I also love.
[00:04:45] Charlotte Cheng: And then now you're at Substantial. What got you interested in really focusing on equity with design research in mind?
[00:04:52] Sheryl Cababa: Before working at Substantial, I had done quite a bit of work in, I guess, kind of the spaces that you would think of as wicked problems. You know, these sort of systemic places where there's no singular solution.
[00:05:06] Sheryl Cababa: Areas like global health and healthcare, you know, government and civic design, and then of course education. And, I think where that intersects with equity is a lot of these places where there's really kind of like entrenched problems, lots of potential opportunities for improvement, and they touch a lot of different and very diverse people is that you have to design with equity in mind, if you are working.
[00:05:38] Sheryl Cababa: Or the government, or if you're working in public education, you're not designing for just like a customer or a consumer, or just, you know, somebody who's going to buy your products or services you are designing for citizens. You're designing for diverse people and it doesn't matter whether they can afford something or not, but you need to provide these.
[00:06:04] Sheryl Cababa: You know, services and solutions to them. And so equity is really important. What it means is that you're going to have to really consider and design for those who are most currently marginalized in the system. And so some good examples of that. I live in the state of Washington. I live in Seattle and we for years now have had mail in voting and it's on paper.
[00:06:30] Sheryl Cababa: It's paper voting. People get sent their ballots at home and then you mail it back. So you never have to line up to vote or anything like that. And one of the reasons they did this is because. After doing lots of research, they found that was the most equitable way of ensuring that people can vote. They can translate it in different languages.
[00:06:51] Sheryl Cababa: They can provide, you know, different places where people could go if they're having trouble with understanding their ballot. And then they also pay for you to return your ballot. And this helps those who are homebound, you know, who have disabilities, those who might speak another language, those who. May not even be living in the state and it sort of prevents this idea of kind of just designing for the average person, the person who is just like typical and able bodied and what have you, you know, in our society, that means white in or living in a white dominant context and it's instead you're designing for those.
[00:07:38] Sheryl Cababa: Who might have the most kind of like extreme experiences of, you know, whatever you're kind of designing. And the idea is like you design for them so in education, you want to design for students who are the most marginalized and that could be students. who have disabilities, black and Latino students, students who are multilingual learners.
[00:08:02] Sheryl Cababa: And these are kind of the students who are able to least benefit from the existing structures. And by designing for them, you're being intentional about wanting to have better and more equitable outcomes for them. But others also benefit from some of those things. An example I often use is Curb cuts. So curb cuts were designed with those with physical disabilities in mind.
[00:08:29] Sheryl Cababa: So if you're in a wheelchair, if there's no curb cut, you're kind of like screwed and being able to go from sidewalk to street, but because that curb cut there eases your use and the reason we have curb cuts is because of disability activists and what happens is that others benefit from that too, you know, like I'm a parent, so every time I'd be pushing a stroller.
[00:08:50] Sheryl Cababa: I benefit from those curb cuts. If you're walking alongside your bike, if you are pushing a cart or pulling a cart or anything with wheels that you can't lift up, that curb cut is really, really useful. And so others benefit and that's kind of a tenant of what we call inclusive design and a foundation for Equity-centered design as well.
[00:09:08] Charlotte Cheng: Thanks for sharing that. I was gonna ask because we're in the same boat. We're designing for often the educator, the student, the parent in mind. We design for like kids around the globe. And it feels like it's threading the needle to really get to a point where you have a low floor, high ceiling.
[00:09:27] Charlotte Cheng: Everyone's needs are going to be met. And it takes a lot of extra work. So why should we care? You know, why, why is it important for us to care about Equity-centered design and education? And what impact does it make? I mean, we've used the curb design, but let's explore an example in education.
[00:09:44] Sheryl Cababa: I think it's like, does it align with our philosophy of the society? Like, do we think education is actually a way for people to experience better outcomes to kind of like, be able to create and design the life they want. Is it an area for opportunity? Is it a way of kind of leveling the playing field despite the socioeconomic? And racial diversity that we have in this country.
[00:10:11] Sheryl Cababa: And if we actually believe that, then we're not reflecting that in the current way that our education system is designed. For example, we really experienced that during COVID, right? All of a sudden, everybody was sent home. Everybody had to do virtual school. But there are, were huge percentages of students who didn't have.
[00:10:32] Sheryl Cababa: Internet access at home. You have students like sitting in McDonald's parking lots trying to do their school work. There's students who didn't have devices, and it really laid stark, just kind of like the unequal distribution of resources across our education system. And so. In order to correct for that, we first need to figure out what are the things that we need to do to make resources more equitable across the board.
[00:11:04] Sheryl Cababa: And that also includes things like, you know, quality teacher training and education. That includes like the kinds of resources that you can offer. For students who might be new to the country and are learning English as a second language, you want to give them a fair shake in order to be able to excel and succeed in school.
[00:11:27] Sheryl Cababa: And so I think that sort of points to me, like the importance of like, this is why you should care about. Equity and engaging in equity center design in education is that it really is like in many ways, like the foundation of our philosophy about how we can each design the lives that we want, right? And be able to succeed and to kind of break down boundaries that exist within like our different socioeconomic statuses. So I think, you know, for me, that's like a really important reason to like activate my own abilities and capabilities as a designer within this space and why I get. Excited about it. And, you know, it's just kind of like, sometimes it's frustrating because you have to engage in more effort in order to be able to do that.
[00:12:25] Sheryl Cababa: So like, let's say you're an EdTech designer and your design technology that we used in schools, and so. Sometimes the easiest thing to do, and I've seen this happen time and time again with ad tech companies, it's like, you'll go and maybe like you'll test it at the school nearby, which might be like a suburban school in a fairly wealthy area near your office park or whatever those students are really privileged.
[00:12:50] Sheryl Cababa: The environment might be really white dominant. There's not a lot of multilingual learners in that environment. And you're like, Hey, my product works really well here. They have fast internet. My product works really well here. And yeah, that's good. That's good enough for everybody. And then you find that historic lander resource schools, the students from historic lander resource communities, there's going to be all sorts of barriers for them to be able to use your product, like maybe the.
[00:13:18] Sheryl Cababa: internet access is crappy, like in their school, maybe they don't have the kinds of, you know, more recent devices that the school that you've been testing with has. And so this is what I mean by like really seeking out the students who are the most under resourced who might be ignored in the current systems and designed for them because benefiting them.
[00:13:41] Sheryl Cababa: It's easy for that to translate to other schools who have like a lot more resources and privilege. So those are just like really good. I think reasons why any product developer, any ad tech developer should engage in equity centers.
[00:13:55] Charlotte Cheng: Thanks for sharing your reasoning behind that. We also do play testing at our company. Well aware of the biases. So we like test in Oakland, the school across the street from me is Title 1, but then we also have Denver and the more you want the whole spectrum, right? Yeah. Great. Thank you. I will say I'm going to do a little bit devil's advocate because I've been in the space long enough that I know what the yes, but responses to what you just said.
[00:14:18] Charlotte Cheng: And one of them's just like, I just care about my school. I just want my kid to succeed. Like why? Like, why should I care? How do you respond to something like that?
[00:14:27] Sheryl Cababa: I just sort of don't know where to begin with that because I'm a little bit like. One, I feel like on some level, that's maybe every parent's attitude.
[00:14:37] Sheryl Cababa: So you have to kind of fight that at every turn. Right. It's just like, well, we have a collective responsibility towards each other to be able to, I don't know, kind of offer. Equal opportunities across the board. I mean, that's why there are title one schools. And I think for some people, it's really hard to kind of maybe get out of that mindset and maybe it sounds from sort of like this individualistic philosophy that we have in general, especially in the U.S. But.
[00:15:09] Sheryl Cababa: I do think things like there's a reason we have a public school system, right, even if your kids are not in public school. They're the reason we want to offer that as a possibility and option to everybody, not just those who can afford school. I mean, you can probably You know, argue this down to like, whatever the lowest common denominator was arguing about, which is like, well, why do kids have to go to school?
[00:15:37] Sheryl Cababa: Like, can't just like the poor kids just work and believe me, I'll bet there's some people in this country who maybe believe that, but if we really believe in, in education and I feel like I do as like a human being as like. An outlet for opportunity that might not be available to you. Otherwise we should do everything we can so that, uh, you know, those who have the least can access this, like sort of the richness of learning without feeling like they have to be wealthy in order to do so is one of like, I'm not, I'm not trying not to sound cynical or negative here, but it's like, it's one of the few things it feels like we have left where we are kind of like.
[00:16:24] Sheryl Cababa: Hey, this should be fair. This is something everybody should have. I literally know, like there are people in this country who don't believe other people should have access to healthcare. Like that tells you everything, but it's like. If you believe like, yeah, people should have access to healthcare, I think in a similar vein, people should have access to education.
[00:16:44] Sheryl Cababa: It's a way, not just to like, make lives better, but also to learn. Like, learning is part of what makes life great, and I feel like if we're unfairly Centering just like our own child, or like our own school next door over everybody else, then we also kind of suffer in the end, right? Like kind of having that attitude collectively.
[00:17:10] Charlotte Cheng: Yeah, I agree because I, to me, I've been trying to pivot the mindset to say, hey, the more students in our school, in our city that thrive, the more our school and our city thrives.
[00:17:21] Sheryl Cababa: Exactly. I love that. And that is, that's so true. If your schools are terrible, you oftentimes have families with resources moving away, trying to go to places with more resources they're taking with them, their own capabilities and talents and what have you.
[00:17:40] Sheryl Cababa: And then. They stopped caring about the resources that go to the schools that they left behind, or the neighborhoods or communities they left behind. And that's a really big problem. And so like you're saying, like, if schools are thriving, and your community is thriving, your city is thriving, then, you know, it'll continue to thrive if you keep putting resources into your school environment.
[00:18:05] Charlotte Cheng: Now let's dive into your work with the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, because I'm fascinated because I'm aware of how diverse those foundation organizations are. So how do you help them get this kind of mindset and how do you help them apply equity-centered design into their work?
[00:18:23] Sheryl Cababa: I'm so happy that I don't have to help them get this mindset. They have the mindset like they're looking to have an impact and. I think we're just there to kind of like help execute on this work or help inform it. And part of what we do is you might think of designers like working in digital design as maybe working directly on EdTech products or what have you, like the actual kind of like digital.
[00:18:54] Sheryl Cababa: With digital design and development, what we do is kind of like a few steps before that. So we work with the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation to help use design thinking as well as like equity-centered design to inform their investment strategy. So what that means is that, and I don't think I really fully defined equity-centered design, but really what it is is We engage the end users and end beneficiaries, like those who are least empowered typically in the system.
[00:19:28] Sheryl Cababa: At every step along the way in the design process. So that means engaging students from historically under resourced schools and communities, that means engaging with teachers who, who aren't typically engaged in like the design and development of products, even if they're kind of like testing them or what have you.
[00:19:48] Sheryl Cababa: And we involve them at the strategic level in which organizations like the Gates Foundation are making investment decisions. So when we worked on this grand challenge that the Gates Foundation had a few years ago called Balance the Equation, the Algebra I Grand Challenge, it was oriented around the problem space being Algebra I is basically a gateway course for students.
[00:20:12] Sheryl Cababa: And oftentimes, and this holds true in many different states, if you are not introduced to algebra one before you go into high school by eighth grade. Oftentimes that disrupts your ability to eventually even apply for STEM majors in college. And there was something really depressing about realizing that for me as like a designer.
[00:20:36] Sheryl Cababa: And as a parent, I was kind of like, why? Like 13 year old does not know what they're doing, you know, like they aren't realizing that they're setting up their ability to either to, you know, succeed or even be able to pursue this avenue by eighth grade, especially if you have a student who like let's, let's face it, like a lot of black and brown students are tracked into more remedial math.
[00:21:03] Sheryl Cababa: In middle school. And so that is already determining your ability to even pursue a STEM field. I found that really depressing. I found it amazing that the Gates foundation was kind of working to figure out how do we make this more equitable? How do we make algebra one a more equitable experience for different types of students?
[00:21:23] Sheryl Cababa: And what's really interesting is as we're talking to students and teachers about this project and kind of like. Understanding their context around algebra one as a subject. So hearing, literally working with interviewing and doing workshops with like eighth graders who are kind of like, uh, I'm not really a math person.
[00:21:44] Sheryl Cababa: And you're like, Oh, you're already saying you're not a math person. What can we talk about? That would make you a math person and just finding these like creative ways of engaging them within the process of thinking about opportunities. What came out of that is. The foundation, sometimes they have these investments that are oriented towards like a singular type of solution.
[00:22:04] Sheryl Cababa: So for this particular thing, they could have invested in like, Oh, a digital tutoring platform or something like that. That's something they have invested in, but rather than going down like one path. They know that this is like a systemic, it's a gnarly kind of problem, right? So what are the different sort of avenues, intervention types that we can invest in?
[00:22:27] Sheryl Cababa: And so they had five different areas, improving the relevance of Algebra 1 content, so just kind of understanding that students, like sometimes it's all theoretical and it's really hard for them to relate to what they're learning, empowering and strengthening teacher practices. This is like teacher professional development, building out support systems, like community programs and things like that, where students can essentially engage in further kind of like math instruction and involvement outside of the school environment, or maybe even inside of the school environment. It just kind of depends on the investment. And then also kind of drawing connections with learning math and understanding math language, and that applies too to multilingual students. And so these were all aspects of there's like really large Grand challenge that they set sort of sent out to the field to say, Hey, do you, are you working, are you like an ad tech developer, for example, who's working in any of these areas, you might be able to apply for this grant and we can provide an investment for that.
[00:23:32] Sheryl Cababa: And what I really loved about this was one that they were open to the idea of. Involving students so early in the process, like they wanted to hear directly from students, not like interpreted through researchers or anything like that, or teachers, even like students who are directly involved in sort of helping us shape this and then the idea that in order to.
[00:23:58] Sheryl Cababa: improve equity in this particular space, there's many different things you have to do. Like there's no silver bullet in education. You can't just be like, Hey, here's a digital product. And it's going to like fix student outcomes for everybody. And so being realistic and acknowledging that, and then investing in these, like, Some of them like really grassroots organizations that are kind of doing this work.
[00:24:21] Sheryl Cababa: And so, yeah, I thought that was like a really interesting approach to kind of making equitable decisions about the change you want to see in education and doing it in a way that elevates student voice throughout the process.
[00:24:35] Charlotte Cheng: Yeah, that sounds like a great process. I mean, we're going through some research grant proposals as well to just get funding to work on things that we care about, right?
[00:24:43] Charlotte Cheng: There's a project we're pitching about studying how to increase engagement with girls and coding. Much like you said, I'm not a math person. Like these girls are like, I'm not a coder. And Like breaking that down into why, why do you feel like that? That's where we start is to ask the student, why, why do you feel like that?
[00:25:02] Charlotte Cheng: So how, if I wanted to do it, right. And we've tried our best to, so I'm learning from you. What are some key principles to follow when you're practicing equity-centered design, like from step one into implementing the design that you've created?
[00:25:17] Sheryl Cababa: So it's essentially is kind of like first, like really understanding who you're, what we call priority students are.
[00:25:25] Sheryl Cababa: So is there a demographic that is representative of the students who are maybe most marginalized in terms of like, you know, who you might be designing for across the broad spectrum of users and try to get representation there and continually design for them. So for example, the Gates Foundation, when we've worked with them, you can focus on any amount of students, right?
[00:25:49] Sheryl Cababa: Like my background is AAPI and it could be like, you could say Pacific Islanders, like Pacific Islanders in my state. Oftentimes have the worst outcomes in school. And so you could, you know, if you're designing something that is centered for on students in the state of Washington, I would say like, the guidelines really be a really good group to focus on because then you can design for them.
[00:26:14] Sheryl Cababa: And again, like test with a broader set of students and, you know, see where like their outcomes are improving, where they're benefiting, but really starting with them and understand their context and designing for them. And I think that's a little scary sometimes for product developers, but my response to that is a little bit like, well, you accidentally do that anyway, right?
[00:26:36] Sheryl Cababa: Like you accidentally are designing for like the suburban school where the median income is really high, where, you know, students are really privileged. So why not do it in a way? That, you know, is going to benefit the students where you have the most opportunity for equitable impact. So determine who, you know, your priority students are.
[00:26:58] Sheryl Cababa: Then once you do that work to really qualitatively understand their context. So before you go into like designing things and then. Kind of like asking people to test it. It's really good to like interview students about the context of what they're experiencing today. So if you're designing a product that will be used in their math classroom, ask them and try to understand what's happening in their math classroom today and the things that they're using currently and what is, and isn't resonating with them.
[00:27:31] Sheryl Cababa: Oftentimes at this stage too, I think there's the process of equity-centered design too, where you want to kind of disrupt the power imbalances between like the designer or researcher and those who you're conducting research with. So we oftentimes do sort of like creative output kind of activities that feel less of like, Oh, we're just extracting your trauma stories in order to decide for it.
[00:27:56] Sheryl Cababa: So that's another thing is just like understand people's context and yeah, try not to be super extractive about it. And then. We also engage in co design or participatory design. So the idea is that essentially involving them in the co design process. So not just learning from them in order to go off and design for them and have them test it, it's like, so this is the thing that we're designing and creating.
[00:28:23] Sheryl Cababa: What kind of ideas do you have? That could contribute to this and it's a really empowering exercise, especially for students. I've had how many times where students like, um, and there's like, so how do we get to do what you do? Like, Oh, like high school students ask you, but I've never heard of this. So like, as a job, like design researcher or UX designer, and they're like, yeah.
[00:28:46] Sheryl Cababa: And then, so that's. Like part of the processes that really empowers them to activate their imaginations in a way that feels like they're also problem solving for themselves in their own school or community. Right. And so we don't have to be the ones to interpret that then. And then we can kind of like take these thoughts, ideas, and then combine them with like to sort of more traditional design processes that are oriented around like feasibility and kind of understanding what can and can't be built.
[00:29:15] Sheryl Cababa: And then you come back again and have. Students validate. So I think the idea is that You're really trying to understand their context, you engage them as much as possible and in co design and participatory design. Also, maybe have representation on your team. And I said, maybe, but I mean, no, actually do.
[00:29:33] Sheryl Cababa: If you're working with a certain demographic or population, have somebody on your team who represents. That population and so sometimes we bring people onto our team if we don't have that and we call them cultural moderators because they come from like a similar background, the students that we're designing with and for, and that also creates an environment where students themselves are more comfortable with our son because there's somebody there who is like really representative of their background, and we also engage with folks like researchers who work in education so that There's kind of like that element about it too.
[00:30:05] Sheryl Cababa: So sorry, that was like a long answer, but hopefully that touches on some of our tenants when we engage in equity-centered design.
[00:30:14] Charlotte Cheng: And I'm just going to drop the name of your book, Closing the Loop, Systems Thinking for Designers, because I believe there's tons of tips and tricks there on how to guide you through this process.
[00:30:25] Sheryl Cababa: Yeah, absolutely. And examples from my work in education. And I think the idea is that you have to engage not just end users, in fact, but also the different stakeholders in the system. You have to understand people's decision making and their incentives, like what are the incentives for somebody at the district level?
[00:30:43] Sheryl Cababa: What are the incentives for teachers in the classroom? What are the incentives for those who are making decisions so that you can understand if you're going to be designing solutions for those spaces? How do we best ensure that? You know, you're not surprised by like what happens in terms of the financial decisions of a district.
[00:31:03] Sheryl Cababa: If you have something, it doesn't work with like the learning management systems that districts are using, it's like all of those kinds of things. And so systems thinking is also really important aspect in addition to equity center design.
[00:31:15] Charlotte Cheng: Agreed that's my role, basically, like you said, understanding all those levels and how our product fits in to that system and how it can really feed it.
[00:31:26] Charlotte Cheng: Right. So I want to look, I feel like I could talk about this all day long, but like, make sure you have time, but let's look forward, you know, let's like wave our magic wand and imagine we all like keep pursuing equity-centered design across all of the education aspects. How could it impact the future of EdTech?
[00:31:44] Sheryl Cababa: I think there is something to like if you're designing a tech, and you kind of see the underlying inequities in our schools, you will also be an advocate for pushing for a more equitable resources. For example, if you are trying to design for schools, where You're like, Oh my God, their internet sucks. How are they supposed to use this platform that we're designing that has a lot of video on it or what have you, and you will end up advocating for schools in those communities to have.
[00:32:21] Sheryl Cababa: better internet access. I think that's one benefit is like it exposes you, especially if you're kind of like, Oh, I'm just a tech developer in Silicon Valley or something like that. Yeah. There are different levels of access that people have, and you will end up being somebody who will advocate for access if it benefits you too.
[00:32:39] Sheryl Cababa: And so that's one benefit is just like, It will be an avenue for more equitable distribution of resources in schools and also I think there'll be better outcomes for students who their starting line is way behind other students, just depending on what school district what city they're in, etc. And I think.
[00:33:02] Sheryl Cababa: That is also a benefit of equity-centered design is that you will actually be contributing to creating that foundation that will help them have a more equal starting line with other students who might be starting out with more resources. So I know I sound obsessed with like the distribution of resources out of school, but I think it's so important and it's so inequitable the way it happens now that that's a fundamental change that if.
[00:33:31] Sheryl Cababa: If that changed, it would create so much opportunity for students who don't have as much today.
[00:33:36] Charlotte Cheng: Right. And to me, I, I think it also will enrich, hopefully the ed tech community, if more diverse stakeholders can get to that point to, to be able to speak up and speak out and do roles like we have. Right.
[00:33:49] Sheryl Cababa: Yeah.
[00:33:50] Sheryl Cababa: 100 percent Absolutely. Representation is so important and we absolutely lack it in the technology industry and the more of us there are that can kind of like speak to these diverse experiences, our own experiences with education, our own experiences with things like learning English as a second language.
[00:34:11] Sheryl Cababa: I think the industry will design better for those experiences as well.
[00:34:16] Charlotte Cheng: Now I'm excited about this. And I keep that vision in mind when things get rough. So what advice would you give to someone who is interested in exploring Equity-centered design? Where could they start and what can they do if they feel discouraged along the way?
[00:34:33] Sheryl Cababa: I think the biggest thing you can do to sort of get started is start involving students in your design and development process. And so if that means. Just starting out by interviewing them and understanding and like visiting their classrooms and things like that, that's already a good start. When I say involving them, it's like, how can you push their involvement beyond just kind of like, Having them react to things or what have you, but actually trying to involve them in the act of designing and maybe even developing the idea of being involved in these processes, whether it starts with having a workshop where it's like an ideation workshop around your product or something like that.
[00:35:18] Sheryl Cababa: I think that kind of exposure. To those who will actually be using your products and services on a daily basis is a really good start. And then from an equity perspective, ensuring that they're from a diversity of backgrounds. That is even better and having like other aspects of diversity too. Like it's really great to engage neurodiverse students because they think of things in different ways and perceive things differently in a way that you can design for them while also making accessible products like these.
[00:35:57] Sheryl Cababa: That's actually also a really good starting point, by the way, is make sure your products are accessible, you know, adhere to accessibility principles on WCAG. And ensure that your products are doing that engaging those who are going to be your end users, I think is a really good start even if it's just in baby steps.
[00:36:16] Charlotte Cheng: Right. I mean, most of this is baby steps, so it's less intimidating. And I'd also say same goes for a teacher or an educator who's trying to be equity minded in the design of how they're teaching their classroom, right?
[00:36:29] Sheryl Cababa: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Engage your students, empower them to help you design what they're going to be learning. And I think that's a really good start of like shifting power balances too.
[00:36:41] Charlotte Cheng: Great. Yeah. It always circles back to talk to the student anymore. Yeah.
[00:36:45] Sheryl Cababa: Yeah. Exactly. It's pretty easy, actually.
[00:36:49] Charlotte Cheng: Sure. Done. We've got it. We solved the problem of the world by just talk to students more, but no seriously, Sheryl, thank you so much for sharing your expertise, your advice. I hope you all go out, find her book, check out her resources. And yes, it was a pleasure talking to you.
[00:37:07] Sheryl Cababa: Yeah, likewise. Thanks so much. This was a really fun conversation.
[00:37:15] Charlotte Cheng: Thanks for listening to EdTech Adventures. Please subscribe to catch more of our episodes and leave a review to support the show. For more resources and info, visit us at CodeCombat.com/podcast. I'm your host, Charlotte Cheng. We'll see you on our next learning adventure.