048 | Stephanie Jordan | Building with Purpose: Recruiting People into New Categories Through Flavor (Avallen Calvados)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 048 I had the honor to talk to Stephanie Jordan. She is the Co-Founder of B-Corp Avallen Calvados. She brings fantastic insights as he also runs her Sales & Marketing Consultancy, Drinking Out Loud. Before that she has ran Sales & Global Advocacy for la Hechicera Rum and was the Global Brand Ambassador for Tanqueray Gin after starting her career in drinks on the Global Diageo graduate scheme. I hope you will enjoy our chat.Time Stamps0:00 Intro3:04 Bringing A Non-Trendy Category To Market5:54 Brand Or Liquid Led9:19 Target Occasion Vs Category14:58 Multi or Single Target Occasion24:11 Sustainability Messaging30:03 OutroAbout The Host: Chris MaffeoAbout The Guest: Stephanie Jordan

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Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Stephanie Jordan

Co-founder | Avallen Calvados B Corp

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For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

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Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

I'm your host Chris Mafia.
In episode 48, I had the honour

to talk to Stephanie Jordan.
She's the Co founder of B Corp,

Avalynn Calvados.
She brings fantastic insights as

she also ran her sales and
marketing consultancy Drinking

Out Loud.
Before that.

She has run sales and global
advocacy for HECERAR AM and was

the Global Brand Ambassador for
tanker Red Jean after starting a

career in drinks on the global
Diagio Graduate scheme.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
Charles, Stephanie, how you

doing?
Ciao.

My feel good.
Thank you.

How are you?
I'm good, I'm good, it's nice.

And pre Christmas I've set
myself up with a nice Avalon and

Sonic because the recipe you
gave me I was a little bit under

stock for for the Appletini.
Fairness It's a very simple

recipe.
Apple juice, Avalan lemon juice,

and little sugar.
However, I approve of the Avalan

tonic.
Yes, thank you.

Thank you.
And yeah, the issue was that my

daughter finished the apple
juice and then I I ran out of

apples because there's been a
bit of a apple, you know,

strudel done in the family from
my wife.

It's a season.
An apple a day keeps the doctor

away.
But you're right.

Especially around Christmas, you
start seeing so many Christmas

recipes trending on Pinterest
and Instagram and Da da da and

beautiful, beautiful mold
ciders.

So I'm happy you're out of
apples.

It means they're being consumed.
Definitely in in this house,

they are consumed.
It's a great honor to have you

finally we managed.
We still have never met in

person which is another things I
managed to meet team at least,

but I mean we know each other
for now what 5-6 years probably

and I've been following your
journey with Avalan and your

transition from you know big
corporate through smaller

entities.
So you're consulting and and

you're finally your brand.
We had a session already with

our friends Filiberto back in
the days and I guess a lot of

things have changed like the
market has evolved.

I think he was.
I think he wasn't even COVID.

I think it was pre COVID when we
when we spoke.

I think it was 2019 probably.
What a magical world.

Son of optimism.
But yes, we've been following

each other a while.
I remember being introduced to

you by our friend who now is the
CEO of Campari.

Pretty impressive.
You were hustling beer and

looking into brand advocacy at
the time, which was really

interesting because that had
been my background at the Agio.

Yes, yes, exactly.
So let's start with, you know,

with this excuse that I'm
finally sipping your brands

because I often don't have at
hand the brand that I'm talking

about during this episode.
So now this is one of the lucky

ones in which I'm actually able
to drink it.

Let's start on the actual
bringing a category that is not

trending at you know per
Southeast to the market and what

are the challenging on doing
that.

So let's let's start.
Let's start with that.

First of all, I think you've
just created a business idea for

yourself and you should probably
set up a distributor there in

Prague to bring in some of these
brands.

If there's a lack of the craft
and independence, we don't have

route to market there yet.
So hey, if anyone's listening, I

love, I love that you do have
some Avalon.

And so you are drinking a
Calvados and tonic in fact,

right.
And so we created a brand which

we actually considered to be an
accidental Calvados.

Why accidental?
Well, we just set out to launch

what we believe to be the most
sustainable, planet positive and

delicious spirits.
The science, the research took

us to the orchards of Normandy
and we ended up down this

rabbit's tunnel that told us
that we needed to invest our

life savings and convince a few
other hundred people to invest

100, hundreds of thousands of
EUR into bringing Calvados back

from the debt.
Which is actually, I honestly

want to say, more challenging
than we thought it was going to

be.
And there's many reasons for

this, right?
We have come to understand upon

reflection and this is we're
five years down the line, which

is crazy and five years from
from inception, right from the

idea to the launch.
We've probably been in market

before.
But nonetheless, when this

accidental Calvados idea became
very apparent to us, we were so

excited to look at the
competitive landscape and

realize that not one global
spirits group had invested, or

at least they had not invested
in the past couple of decades.

So it felt to us like there was
a huge commercial opportunity.

Considering the fact that our
background was of course on

trade and that we were going to
target some of the best initial

bars around the world, we
thought, oh how fantastic.

There is no competition for
these menus.

No one has bought the Calvados
category, right?

No pan, no, no diagio, no
Campari, no Constellation, no

Brown Foreman, no Bacardi, no
one at all.

So even if they have contracts
for gin and whiskey and rum, we

can slide under the radar.
It's going to be easy.

Except for that's not the case.
It sounds very much familiar.

Like you, we just we're
commenting my latest newsletter

where I set up my own company
and I thought I had tons of

contacts that would give me work
and wasn't the case.

If I remember right, like what
we were discussing previously

and through the journey you
wanted to create something

sustainable.
You know, I usually ask the

question like does it start with
the brand or with the liquids?

And it was almost like, you
know, you started with the with

the purpose first, so you wanted
to be sustainable and it

happened to be apples as the
most sustainable choice.

Am I Am I right in this?
That is correct.

So apples grown in traditional
orchards in these mosaic

habitats which are not only are
regenerative but are incredible

places for absorbing carbon
dioxide and also require very

little to no water intervention.
So it was really the agriculture

around how these apple trees are
grown in Normandy.

That for us was the starting
point And unlike what marketeers

would like us to say, which is
that we identified a problem and

came with the solution.
The problem we identified, no

one in the industry had really,
really a few, a few, but not

very many had actually gone, oh,
this is a problem.

And we should highlight it to
our consumers because drinkers

unfortunately haven't quite got
to the point of understanding

that all industries have impact.
So when they're eating their

veggie burger because they've
understood the impact of the

meat industry and the
environment, very hard somehow

for this to translate into their
gin and tonic.

So the category happened to be
Calvados.

And so this category story about
menus not being or contracts not

being blocked by huge companies
and so on was more like the

let's say the second stage in
which you came up to.

You know it wasn't like I
identified that there isn't a

big opportunity in Calvados and
let's launch a Calvados brands.

It was more like OK, we we want
to create something that is

sustainable apples, Calvados.
Oh by the way Calvados is

actually a category that nobody
talks about.

So probably there is an
opportunity so that there was

the the flow.
And we were excited that there

was not this big competitive set
because of course then we

thought it right for innovation
and it was very easy actually

early doors to pick up a lot of
listings in the on frame with

all the core independent
cocktail bars, indie places, you

know some of the 50 best bars in
the world because they

understand great liquids and
very quickly these kind of high

end bartenders and chefs
understood the sustainability.

The problem is now scale and in
order for us to scale and if we

look at a key market for us
being the UK, you need to get

national listings and I'm
talking about you know, big on

Prem accounts be at once or some
of the pub groups like.

So there's where you're entering
40 to 200 venues that are high

volume venues, you know after
work mixed drinks, mixed with

beer and cider etcetera.
And these places work with

tenders.
And when they put their tenders

out, they will say, hey, we're
looking for a premium vodka,

premium gin, pouring vodka,
pouring gin, premium rum.

And they'll go all the way down
the list.

And now of course there is
tequila and mescal, but there is

barely a section for Brandy, let
alone cognac.

And certainly none of them are
saying, by the way, come to this

tender, we guarantee 6000
bottles of Calvados.

That is now our problem.
In many of the episodes I'm I'm

playing with categories and
cross pollination.

I mean we always talk about bees
and I always send you the the

the pictures of bees when I
bumped into them in some in some

orchards.
How how does it work from a

target occasion kind of
perspective because using the

the Avalon and tonic as an
example, you know it's something

that you are trying to steal
from gin and tonic in the mind

of consumer so to say you are
substituting the gene with the

planet positive tonic drink.
Do they look at that from a

target occasion kind of
perspective rather than a

category perspective?
Is there is there an opportunity

to actually say you're not
actually looking for a gin,

you're looking for something
that works in the occasion of a

gin and tonic?
Here we go.

This is my Avalon, which happens
to be a Calvador's, but it's

actually a great choice for a
gin and tonic like occasion.

First of all, just to say to
those listeners that may not

know, the bees are an essential
part of our brand world and of

our company ethos.
So we are a 1% for the Planet

member in addition to being B
Corp certified and donate

revenues to the Bumblebee
Conservation Trust for every

bottle sold.
So bees are crucial pollinators

and pollinate every single one
of our French apple blossoms

into the delicious crisp,
pesticide free apples that go

into our liquid.
Now getting into the drink

strategy, I wouldn't say that we
stole per SE the Avalantonic or

the Calvados tonic from the gin
and tonic because Calvados

tonics have been drunk since the
70s in France and we have some

kind of nice vintage retro
posters to prove that the

Calvados tonic is certainly not
a current day top of mind drink.

And yes, given my time on gin,
it felt to us, and again, we're

speaking about four years ago,
that the first approach should

be an Avalan Tonic or an
Avalanche ginger.

My business partner, Tim, was
also global brand ambassador for

Bullet Bourbon.
His handle on Instagram is

Ginger Bitten.
So it was it was the tonic and

the ginger, and that felt really
right at the time.

Why?
Well, we knew that again

thinking about the UK
specifically, that UK drinkers

were tiring of gin and it was
the first time in recent years

that we've seen that kind of
saturation and actually the

gross curve start to flip the
other way around.

But what we also knew is that
there was still a lot of

investment and innovation from
the mixer brands, let's say, you

know, double Dutch for example.
So you've got the mixers who are

super active, the gin category
is starting to to slow down and

so yes, you want to come in and
say, hey, really simple as you

would make AG and T have an
Avalon and tonic.

It's happily, it's just as
refreshing.

It's actually fruitier, less
sweet and it's great for the

planet.
And so an ideal case scenario

would have been to find one or
two large national venues to

work with to put the alternative
A&T planet friendly carbidos and

tonic on a menu.
In fact we haven't really seen

that work.
So yes, for at home consumption.

So Avalon, for example, is
listed with a lot of e-commerce

sites or Ocado for example, in
the UK, some really lovely

retailers like Fortnum and
Masons, Harvey Nichols and

again, I'm keeping this UK
specific because as some people

have said as well in the
previous podcast, drink

strategies, you want them to be
global, but that doesn't always

work, you know, and a really
interesting place for Avalon and

Calvados is the US and we all
know that Tonic is still and

probably will never be a thing
there.

So just to to kind of end on
this, why is maybe this Avalon

and Tonic not the right drink?
Where we've got to is that it's

not a category plane and we need
a category and every other

drink.
Every other category has a

drink, whether it be tequila
with the Margarita and now the

Paloma, whether it be something
like Scotch that still continues

to push things like old fashions
or whiskey salons, rum with

daiquiris and mojitos or Cuba
libres.

I don't think anyone could tell
me one drink that is famous with

calvados.
And that is the thing that we

are now trying to resolve.
And we have decided upon much

reflection, that we believe the
winner to be the Apple Teeny.

So a big part of our 2024
strategy and beyond will be this

Apple Teeny.
Why?

Because Cavanaugh tastes like
apples.

Because it's made from apples
and apple Teenies were really,

really famous drinks in the
naughties.

Quite retro featured on some
series like Sex and the City and

Scrubs.
And again, like everything is

cyclical.
So we're seeing all these retro

disco drinks come back around.
And so we're really excited at

the prospect of this really
simple, refreshing and delicious

apple martini and trying to
bring it back into the 21st

century.
It's very interesting what what

you see because last time
probably we were talking, we

were still talking about a
violent and tonic.

No, that's why, you know, it's
stuck in my in my mind because I

shouldn't like with my my wife
likes it as well.

So like when whenever you know
like it's.

A delicious drink.
It's, it's.

But we can't own it.
But we can't own it.

But I'm also a bit of a fan of
being flexible now, because I

always had this conversation
with with guests.

It it's good to have a focus on
one cocktail but then it's

probably like a more of an A
wider occasion.

I always have the example of the
the Campari as an example.

I mean as we we discussed hi
Matteo if you're listening

they've got the Negroni as a
hero drink.

But then I mean if you go to
easily when come going going

back to the localization of the
strategy the result also the

Campari Spritz as something that
is very widespread is not as

widespread as Abro Spritz
elsewhere but in easily Campari

Spritz is a big drink so you can
allow some flexibility despite

being focused on most of the
communications about Negroni and

Americano for example when
cancer comparting.

I'm I'm curious to know like in
your discussions with the trade

and and all these you know
buyers and tenders and stuff.

Do you see a change in their
mindset in in stop seeing it as

a category only and it's like
yeah but sorry you are Calvador

so I cannot put you into any box
or there is something like I

mean technically there was no
box for apparel until a few

years ago and now all of a
sudden you know it's a it's a

big box you know so like do do
you do you see that evolving

with some more let's say
forward-looking buyers and and

players or is it still very much
like a category play.

Great question and I think
depending on which geographic

base we we answer from, it would
differ.

What I would say is that we 100%
agree that it's about occasion,

not about category.
We also believe that it's about

flavor and not about category.
Now as a small independent

startup, I will point fingers to
some of our bigger players which

make up more than 90% of all
global volumes.

So always fun to think that this
is an industry sort of fun Crash

and independent spirits brands,
but in actual fact not so and

had a really nice conversation
with the editor just drinks and

he also edits just Foods and he
was sort of saying to me it is

actually crazy how consolidated
the global drinks industry is.

And so much more consolidated
than food, which I think is a

really important consideration
because these conglomerates

currently segment spirits based
on categories, not on flavors,

not on occasions and they
influence the buyers and

consequently that will impact
what we're seeing on shelves and

in bars.
So it's not how I would do it,

but it is how the industry
operates.

So it's a big thing to try and
change and it involves really

exceptional individuals who care
a lot about the consequences of

the world.
As soon as you have buyers who

really genuinely have this care
around sustainability,

understand that they're in a
kind of position of power where

they are gatekeepers to change
and transformation.

When you empower these buyers,
then yes, they they will

absolutely go beyond category
and they will look to the brand,

the ethos, the liquids, and
they'll make exemptions.

But this is unfortunately still
not the rule.

So there are many opportunities
that we have felt that we've

been really great matches for
and they have not come to

fruition again with this
category as an excuse and that

is something that I think we all
need to overcome and.

Now we've got the Master Drinks
podcast, which is speaking about

target occasions and flavors and
not thinking categories.

So bit by bit an episode by
episode we'll we'll try to to

change things and and to be
honest, like you know the more I

speak to people even like senior
people in the podcast and in

meetings and everywhere like you
know, they they get it.

It's just that categories I feel
it's easier to manage than

flavors, you know.
So from I understand it from a

corporate perspective, it's
quite simple because then it's

like is it rum, is it vodka?
Is it gin?

OK, now you are the gene
category brand manager, you are

the rum category, dark spirits,
white spirits and so on.

But it doesn't work anymore
because people thinking flavors

and occasion nowadays.
This is where it gets really

interesting and we're about to
see and witness some innovation

that has never quite been quite
as fast and agile as companies

like Coca-Cola and Pepsi get
serious about investing in the

alcohol space.
And by the way, they are,

they're not approaching this
from a category perspective.

They look at laser, they look at
textures, they look at format.

The way in which they innovate
around drink is completely

different to the old God.
So I think it will be

interesting to see how our more
established spirits players

respond.
Yesterday was, I mean, a

Christmas lunch.
And I was talking to a bartender

and we were talking, for
example, whiskeys, you know.

And then I was, I was thinking
like I I used to not like

whiskey, you know, until a
couple of years ago.

And then I'm.
I'm trying to think back on how

I got into whiskey.
And I got into whiskey through a

drink that, you know, I would
have never thought of having,

which was a Blvd. deer because
I'm a Negroni fan.

So for me, the easy entry was a
Blvd.

And this is, by the way, what
I'm using when I'm trying to

sell a whiskey into an outlet
because I I visit distilleries,

I work with whiskey brands and
so on.

And and I and I want to get more
people into the whiskey

category.
And everybody says to me, I

don't drink whiskey.
Sorry.

You know, And then I'm always
saying, OK, what do you drink?

And then, for example, do you
drink Negroni?

And this is the conversation I
was having yesterday.

And I said, do you drink?
Do you drink the Negroni?

If you drink Negroni, just swap
the gin for a whiskey, whatever.

If it's a bourbon or a Scotch or
an Irish whiskey or world world

whiskey or whatever that is, you
know.

And then basically two out of
three, you know them already,

you're familiar with that taste.
And then you just have to get

used to the third one.
For example, because I like

bitter and I don't like sour, If
somebody introduced me to

whiskey with the whiskey sour, I
would have said no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, for example now.
So I think there's a lot of

things to play with, you know
flavor to, to transition people

into different categories
because then it's it's more like

do you like sweet flavors, do
you like, you know, bitter

flavors, do you like citrus, you
don't like it, you know what

kind of fruits do you like and
so on.

And then based on that you can
take different angles to the to

the messaging that you're using
with a certain person.

Agreed.
And here's the really crazy

thing.
Ask somebody if they'd like to

try some Calvados.
They'll say.

Probably not.
Ask someone if they love apples

9 out of 10 say yeah, do you
want to try a delicious appley

cocktail?
Will say yeah.

And then all of a sudden they
love Calvados.

And this is the extra extra
weird thing.

Most of us are trying to just
drink things that taste like

fruit.
Anyway, If you look at some of

the big innovations, they've all
been flavored with apples,

whether that's, you know, a
snare or vodka apple or a Crown

Royal apple or a Jack Daniels
apple.

And here I am wondering why we
can't just drink the darn thing

in the 1st place.
But now I think for us the early

mission was about
sustainability.

And of course it is, but it's
sustainable to the core.

We were sustainable by design.
We continue to innovate in in

pack and and you know moving
into sort of circular formats

for the on Prem.
But now that a we've established

that and BA lot of other brands
have started to make proactive

decisions and and really try as
you said sort of before when we

were chanting retro fits and
sustainability, that is not a

competitive advantage.
And even though we're still well

ahead of the pack, your average
drinker, your average bartender

doesn't understand the details
around global climate impact and

biodiversity loss.
So it's very hard for them to

understand why Avalan might be
more sustainable than this said

vodka or this said whiskey.
So basically that leaves us now

with one, one advantage that we
have left which is apples we

have to go with.
This is our next.

So port of call.
All we'll do is talk about

apples.
If anyone answers the question,

we'll say apples.
That's I mean the the power of

consistency is there and so
let's clarify this one because

this is very interesting for me
and for our listeners.

So you started from from a
sustainable purpose.

Now going back to what we're
discussing in the beginning, I'm

curious to know like what is
your messaging, Corporate people

talk about messaging hierarchy
now you know what is the first

thing you talk about and blah,
blah, blah.

I think it's happening more as a
compass thing.

It depends which side you come
in.

You know you come from east,
West, north or South and then

you know northeast, northwest.
And you know you could be

talking about sustenabe, you
would be talking about apples,

you could be talking about a
drink or anything.

So how do you usually explain it
nowadays?

So it sounds like despite you
where you know one of the I

would say first brands you know
having really like carrying the

the sustainable flag as the main
flag that you were carrying that

Now all all of a sudden
sustainability is not ownable

that much anymore because
there's a bit of greenwashing

left and right and you know some
people are just like ticking the

box of sustainability.
So the ever Joe doesn't

understand what you do
sustainably more than a big

corporation that pretends to be
sustainable.

So how do you, how do you
explain that?

So for example, when you are
talking to a consumer, but when

you're talking to a bartender,
what are the messages that you

play with apart from of course
the apples there, which is the?

The Swiss the Swiss knife of
Avalon method.

I like that.
It's a real it's it is a Swiss

knife because we have so many
that many friends of ours have

come in and said should we do
some brand architecture work?

And they're like, yeah, OK,
probably.

And we do it and they're right.
But we're like we want to talk

about all these things because
all these things are important

to us.
So again, it really depends on

the day and who we're talking
to.

But essentially it could go
anything from hay.

Avalan is made of nothing but
apples, water and thyme.

And did you know water is
actually one of the most

precious resources and
ingredients we have on the

planet.
We use up to 20% less than most

other spirit brands.
Can I tell you a little bit more

we could talk about being
positive has never tasted this

delicious.
Did you know that every single

one of our blossoms was
pollinated by a wild bee, and we

don't have revenues to ensure
the safety of their habitat?

We can talk, of course, about
delicious cocktails like do you

love, do you love apples?
Do you have drinking apples?

Would you love to try an apple
Teeny?

And did you know it's actually
made of Calvados, which is

French apple Brandy?
And it's not just delicious, but

it grows in these beautiful
orchards.

And, you know, trees, they
actually have carbon sink.

So for every cocktail you're
drinking, you're helping the

climate crisis.
Probably my favorite one is do

you want a great tasting drink
that doesn't give the planet a

hangover?
But yeah, there there are loads,

many apple puns, many bee puns.
But again, the reality is, and

where we're getting to is people
just want to have a great

tasting drink.
And if you can add a couple of

oh, and by the way, check out
this really super light

recyclable paper bottle And
there is people Obsessedified

and Oh yeah, and it's female
founded, fabulous to fall.

And I wish it maybe wasn't.
And I wouldn't say that Tim or I

were naive, but we're definitely
true believers and him and I

care so much that sometimes it's
hard for us to realize that

others don't.
And it's not because they're bad

people.
It's because people are busy and

they're just trying to survive
and get on with their lives and

they just want to have a great
burger and a great cocktail and

be left alone to enjoy
themselves.

So we have to find a way to make
it super, super simple for them

to do that whilst having
positive impact and feeling good

about the choices they made on
menu that day.

Yeah, I'm really happy to hear
this because it's really, you

know, it's bringing it down to
make it bulletproof for the

average person that doesn't care
or doesn't have the time or is

busy or or cares but doesn't
care in that moment, but the

average.
Person is the mask, right?

The average person.
The average is like, I love

listening to the the podcast
with Tom a few a few days ago

because he's talking about that
not too good pub with a sticky

carpet.
And average people make up the

majority of our population
globally.

And it's only if average people
can make conscious decisions

that we're able to transform
business and society.

We could get into a whole
spiritual conversation for why

Avalon exists, but we truly,
truly believe that we need to

completely transform this
industry.

And we can, But we only can if
we can convince average Joe and

average Jane to come along this
journey and make it simple for

them.
Not because they're stupid, but

because it's incredibly hard to
just get through life.

So we can make sure that you
know it's delicious and they can

make the right choices and feel
good about them.

Then I think we're winning and
that's that's hard to do and.

That's very crucial ultimately
because that's how we make sure

that everybody gets it and we
really make it, you know, like a

selling story for dummies kind
of thing.

Because ultimately we tend to
live in big cities and we tend

to surround ourselves with, you
know, what agency would call

urbanites and you know, like
people living in cities and so

on.
So we also tend to forget the

majority of the people that live
everywhere, you know, they're

not so aware of the 5th 50 best
bars and best cocktail bars and

top bartenders and what's trendy
and what's not.

You know they ultimately want to
have something with the flavor

based on what they like as a as
a flavor and that's the foot in

the door to to to that point.
That's all for today.

Remember that this is.
A2 part episode. 48 and 49 If

you enjoyed it, please rate it,
comment and share it with

friends, and come back next week
for more insights about building

brands from the bottom up.