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A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
[00:00:00] Ryan: As a man, what I struggle with is being a man in society, having feelings, [00:00:05] having aggressive impulses, having sexual impulses. For the last 10 years of my life, I've told that if I [00:00:10] look in any direction, that is not like straight ahead or straight down. I've done something pretty bad. I could make [00:00:15] people feel uncomfortable and I feel the impact on this.
[00:00:17] Ryan: You know, when I go to the gym and I go into a room and there's just me and another [00:00:20] woman, I'm gonna go into the corner. I'm gonna face away 'cause I don't want to cause [00:00:25] damage to someone. That's the message I have internalized and I have felt this pretty profoundly when I'm in [00:00:30] a meeting with colleagues and I'm often like, don't talk, don't take up space, don't do this.
[00:00:34] Ryan: And so [00:00:35] I've been told by society my responsibility. I've taken these in, but I've taken it in to say I need to [00:00:40] change who I am to conform to FIPs. If I don't, the message is kind of, everyone hates you. [00:00:45]
[00:00:45] SKOT: You must be some kind of therapist[00:00:50]
[00:00:51] Stephanie: today. My guest is Ryan Malice. He's a licensed [00:00:55] clinical social worker, a therapist in private practice in Maryland and Connecticut. He [00:01:00] works with adolescents and adults, and you could say he's specializes in the issues [00:01:05] facing boys and men. So I'm excited to dive into his experience [00:01:10] today. Ryan, welcome to the show.
[00:01:11] Ryan: Well, thank you ab for so much for having me on. Excited to talk.
[00:01:14] Stephanie: We threw this [00:01:15] together super last minute. Uh, we follow each other on X and [00:01:20] I was so grateful that you were able to show up and have a spontaneous conversation today. I
[00:01:24] Ryan: appreciate [00:01:25] the opportunities to talk. It's, I just want to hear about people's ideas.
[00:01:28] Ryan: Like I've followed you for a while. I know some of them, [00:01:30] but just to hear more about what other clinicians are doing in the field is always something that I really enjoy.
[00:01:33] Stephanie: So you [00:01:35] worked in schools and, uh, social emotional learning [00:01:40] before you became a therapist in private practice?
[00:01:41] Ryan: Yes. So I was, I have a master's in social work [00:01:45] and part of that is a, um, internship program.
[00:01:47] Ryan: And I just happened. I didn't get into the internship I [00:01:50] wanted to and got placed into school. This is my story for what I went there. I had no idea what I was doing. Like all of [00:01:55] us when we're interns and I walked down the hallway and there's a fourth grader lying on the floor. [00:02:00] Having a full blown tantrum.
[00:02:01] Ryan: And I walked past him and I don't know what I'm doing. So I'm like, are you okay? And he looks at me, [00:02:05] stops tantrum, and he looks at me and he goes, shut up bitch. I'm gonna play balls tennis with your balls. And [00:02:10] I just walk into my office and start hysterically laughing. And, and part of me just [00:02:15] knew that, oh, this is the right spot for me.
[00:02:16] Ryan: Um, I can handle this, I [00:02:20] get it. But it's like, who the hell am I talking to this kid on the floor? Like he doesn't know who I am. I'm like, I'm like, [00:02:25] fair enough, fair enough. That was funny. Um, and fair enough. So I went there and [00:02:30] I just loved it. I had never worked with kids. I was the youngest in my family and just, I [00:02:35] found kids, um, just to be awesome.
[00:02:36] Ryan: They're fascinating. They just often want someone to talk to. [00:02:40] So I worked in these environments and these were what are called level five schools. So these are students with severe [00:02:45] emotion, social, emotional, behavioral issues. There are physical restraints, there's a lot of stuff going on. [00:02:50] Um, and there's a lot of challenges there.
[00:02:51] Ryan: So I just found myself there and, and I just didn't leave for [00:02:55] about 15 years. Um. And found that it was just such a valuable place [00:03:00] to, to kinda work with kids and it, and special education. If you know anything about it, it's about 90% [00:03:05] boys. So I think this kind of led me to then, you know, I worked with so many young [00:03:10] boys and then now kind of working more and transitioning to the adults there, seeing a lot of the problems that I saw as [00:03:15] children, but now I'm just seeing them as adults.
[00:03:18] Stephanie: That's just such a, a [00:03:20] great spirit to have about that kid's attitude. I can see another person [00:03:25] crumbling in that situation.
[00:03:26] Ryan: Yeah, and that was unfortunately one of the challenges I found in the schools [00:03:30] is so much of the work with kids is how do we regulate ourselves in the face of something [00:03:35] like that.
[00:03:35] Ryan: Whether, you know, often aggression in these places for a lot of young boys is. [00:03:40] When often a child is aggressive towards us, I think the natural tendency is to get aggressive back to assert [00:03:45] control over the situation. I'm bigger, I'm stronger, I have the authority in the situation. And you see it all the time.
[00:03:49] Ryan: You get into power [00:03:50] struggles with kids and it just never worked out well and always I have found, whether it is [00:03:55] working with kids or adults, is that if I get understand why something is happening, it always makes sense to me. It's like, oh, he [00:04:00] is mad at me and I'm like, oh, I get it. He's not really mad at me, but I happen to be the avatar of authority that's [00:04:05] standing in front of them, impeding them from what they want.
[00:04:07] Ryan: Again, fair enough that they're upset. Part of [00:04:10] my job is to manage and deal with that, but it's very hard in these environments where, to be honest, you know, [00:04:15] a lot of the staff there are getting paid $30,000 a year. They're not trained. This, I [00:04:20] can tell you all kinds of stories about like, you don't have to have a degree in anything to be a special educator in Maryland.
[00:04:24] Ryan: [00:04:25] You can have a bachelor's in anything and be a teacher in the classroom the next day, um, and have a two year provisional [00:04:30] license to teach the hardest kids in.
[00:04:32] Stephanie: When you described that tendency to [00:04:35] wanna take control of the situation, it reminded me of some of the conversations I've had with my coaching clients [00:04:40] when they have oppositional strong-willed children, especially, uh, children who [00:04:45] have what I would call lopsided development, where, you know, the kid might be eight years old, but a part of them is [00:04:50] 15 and a part of them as three developmentally.
[00:04:53] Stephanie: Um, you know, those kids and, [00:04:55] and the ones who have to understand everything their own way, they can't just take it on your word, [00:05:00] they, it has to make sense to them. When we're dealing with these kids, I've, I've seen [00:05:05] that dynamic even just through the parent report of the kid tries to take control and then the parent [00:05:10] ties to take control and it just keeps escalating.
[00:05:12] Stephanie: And so you recognize how counterproductive [00:05:15] that can be. What do you think can help in those moments instead whether, [00:05:20] whether you're a parent, an educator, what does that kid really need?
[00:05:24] Ryan: This is [00:05:25] what I would always say when I would try to work with staff with these kids, is that I would try to interpret [00:05:30] their, with their language, their aggression, whatever it is.
[00:05:32] Ryan: I'm interpreting this as a foreign language. I need to [00:05:35] understand what is being communicated to me. Um, you have a kid, whether they [00:05:40] are, you know, maybe they didn't sleep the last night and they're tired and they don't wanna do the math homework, so [00:05:45] they're, they're yelling at you. I'm not gonna do the math work.
[00:05:46] Ryan: I'm gonna throw it up, throw it in the garbage, I'm gonna ball it up. I'm gonna curse you out. [00:05:50] What's going on? There's, there's always a reason for these things to be occurring. And so often what we're [00:05:55] trying to do is diminish an emotion, whether that's getting rid of it, trying to change it [00:06:00] into something else, rather than asking the question first of what is even happening in the room.
[00:06:03] Ryan: So what I'm always trying to do [00:06:05] first, whether it is in counseling or even with the kids or just what's happening, that's totally gonna determine my intervention, [00:06:10] is if there's a need to be filled and you just need a cup of water. I can just get you a cup of water and [00:06:15] we don't have to have a two hour power, power struggle, or if there's something deeper going on, we can have the conversation about [00:06:20] it.
[00:06:20] Ryan: So, so much of me is, is doing proper assessment of what's going on and not allowing our like [00:06:25] automatic emotional process to just take over. And then, you know, it kind of just starts that ball rolling of these [00:06:30] power struggles. So it's taking moment stopping and be like, I don't know why they're doing this.
[00:06:33] Ryan: And if I say that [00:06:35] to myself, I need to find more information. It's kind of a cue for me.
[00:06:38] Stephanie: Analyzing the [00:06:40] behavior. Yes. Figuring out what it could mean.
[00:06:42] Ryan: Well, in schools you learn very much. To see [00:06:45] behavioral, in a functional sense is what is the purpose of this behavior. It's usually is to avoid something, [00:06:50] to get something, to get attention, whatever it may be.
[00:06:53] Ryan: You're asking that question constantly is it's, [00:06:55] they're getting something outta this and, but often you can give kids what they want and it's, it's amazing. You can give kids who want and [00:07:00] would work for you as well. And so trying to figure out, can I provide a win-win situation? This kid gets what they want, whether [00:07:05] it's, you know, a cup of water or they want to save face in front of their peers.
[00:07:09] Ryan: Maybe I can give this [00:07:10] to them in way that doesn't actually hurt me in a way as well. So trying to figure out can I create kind of win-win [00:07:15] situations where rules are followed and you get your emotional needs satisfied.
[00:07:19] Stephanie: [00:07:20] Seems like part of the trick there is that we don't wanna reward bad behavior, but [00:07:25] we do want to show kids that there, that their needs can be [00:07:30] met.
[00:07:30] Ryan: Yeah, and there's an interesting thing with like this idea of rewarding bad behavior. You hear it all the time in [00:07:35] schools, in these types of schools I worked in where we're using behavioral modification programs and so we are. [00:07:40] Actively rewarding some behaviors and you're providing punishment or consequences to other behaviors [00:07:45] and trying to figure out, all right, how do we do this?
[00:07:47] Ryan: And make sure that we're reinforcing the things that we wanna [00:07:50] reinforce and we're making sure that we're giving fair and appropriate consequences in doing this. [00:07:55] And so often it was, are we punishing someone that is angry or are we punishing someone 'cause they threw something [00:08:00] across the room? Those two things are very different to me being angry.
[00:08:02] Ryan: I don't think we should punish you for necessarily. It's the action that that [00:08:05] anger does then, okay, is there a consequence for this? And so trying to figure out a [00:08:10] staff one is, are we using the appropriate intervention? Then two, what type of intervention are you using? Are we [00:08:15] punishing someone out of as I often saw a kind of vindictiveness 'cause, oh, this kid got one over on me, [00:08:20] or I lost control of the classroom.
[00:08:21] Ryan: Or am I trying to instill and really teach them something? And that's a lot [00:08:25] harder, I think, is to do what do I think maybe what is the student needs to hear right now? And [00:08:30] hold a firm boundary and say it's okay if you're upset. I'm gonna do this 'cause this is what I think is gonna be [00:08:35] useful for you in this moment, rather than what is gonna bring the tension down in this moment.
[00:08:39] Stephanie: There's also [00:08:40] an art to being able to recognize what the most natural consequence [00:08:45] of something would be like. I feel like when there's that sort of tip for tat power, struggle, escalation, [00:08:50] it can start to feel quite arbitrary. Yes. And on some level, if the kid can sense that, [00:08:55] like if the kid can sense you are just trying to take away something 'cause you're mad at me, they're, they're gonna [00:09:00] project onto you the same level of maturity that, that they [00:09:05] have.
[00:09:05] Stephanie: Right? Like this is just a power struggle. Yeah. Whereas in the moment to [00:09:10] collect yourself and think through what is [00:09:15] the natural consequence of this action. In other words, if you're spending time in a [00:09:20] way that's not how I wanted you to be spending this time, that does mean that [00:09:25] later on when you wanna spend time on this other thing, unfortunately we don't have time for that because we chose to [00:09:30] make different choices with our time earlier.
[00:09:32] Ryan: It's very, we would always break it down into three things. So like, [00:09:35] natural consequences, logical consequences, imp punitive consequences. And natural is just, if you're running [00:09:40] outside and you skin your knee, no one did anything. It just happened to you. And those are the best. Um, I think we, you do a [00:09:45] huge disservice yelling at kids not to run.
[00:09:47] Ryan: They will learn, they'll figure it out. Um, and they'll [00:09:50] be okay. And we end up having this very fraught relationships. I'm [00:09:55] screaming at you to put your coat on or stop running and it's just everyone's gonna be okay. [00:10:00] Um, and allowing natural consequences to take course is really effective for people. Then you get to logical, [00:10:05] it's kind of what you're talking about.
[00:10:05] Ryan: It's like, I wanna pair the consequence to the behavior. So I want it to make sense. If you're on [00:10:10] your phone in class, okay, I'll take your phone. Like it makes sense you are utilizing this thing. And then [00:10:15] what? The next one is punitive, which is I think what we all end up leaning into, which is just, you did something bad, so I'm gonna hurt [00:10:20] you.
[00:10:20] Ryan: Um, and so I'm gonna make you remember, and this is, you know, it's based out of behavioral modification. [00:10:25] We know that if it, we introduce a punishment, a behavior is less likely to occur. [00:10:30] One of the challenges I think for with parents and in schools is, well, there's a lot more detail to this. [00:10:35] It's not just you punish someone and they stop the behavior.
[00:10:37] Ryan: It's how close to the behavior was it? Did you communicate [00:10:40] that? Which behavior were you punishing them for? Is all of this clear to them? And did I, [00:10:45] how did I do this? And how, like what, how did I enact this consequence more so than like, what was the [00:10:50] consequences? How did I engage with you about this? Did I explain to you I'm [00:10:55] doing this thing, Hey, if you do this one more time, I'm going to do this thing.
[00:10:57] Ryan: Or am I yelling at you and screaming at you and [00:11:00] calling you stupid and saying, I'm gonna take away your tv. Um, and they look, they may be the same consequence [00:11:05] of a TV being taken, but so much of it is the actual interaction between two people and how something is [00:11:10] done. I would argue maybe even more than the consequence itself.
[00:11:13] Stephanie: You seem like. Such a [00:11:15] natural fit for the work in schools, uh, but you're now in private practice. How [00:11:20] much of what you learn in the schools shows up in your private work?
[00:11:22] Ryan: Well, I would say a lot of the [00:11:25] basic lessons of this, and I think one of my basic lessons in schools is just [00:11:30] listen to people and they'll tell you what they need.
[00:11:31] Ryan: Um, and kids will share with you what they need. [00:11:35] Um, it may not be the most articulate, it may not be in the language that you want to hear, but [00:11:40] people will tell you what they need. Um, and I have taken that and now into psychotherapy. And [00:11:45] my job is not to tell anyone how to live their life and not to give them advice.
[00:11:47] Ryan: It is to help them hear [00:11:50] from themselves, what do they need in this time? And often people will just tell you, um, [00:11:55] what are the problems they have in their life, uh, the guilt that they're dealing with. The shame. I know we we're, we're talking about [00:12:00] men. A lot of issues with men is shame around. Anger is something I see.
[00:12:04] Ryan: Kind of [00:12:05] all day, every day. Um, and being able to see, you know, I worked with young kids. It's, it's [00:12:10] just in them. It's just there. It's an is. It's not, not, it's just a thing that [00:12:15] is there for men. And what do we do about it? Is really my question. As opposed to this, so often [00:12:20] I'm seeing men spend hours every day beating themself up.
[00:12:23] Ryan: Should I have this, should I not [00:12:25] have this? Was this the appropriate amount of thing? Rather than asking, what is it telling me? What is, what is this telling me [00:12:30] about the world around me? And how can IU maybe even utilize this to get the things that I do want in life? [00:12:35]
[00:12:35] Stephanie: Let's dive into that. Uh, before we started recording, I was telling you what I do, and so [00:12:40] longtime listeners are well familiar with this, but essentially in the time that I've run this [00:12:45] podcast, my career has transformed from therapist to [00:12:50] therapist with a podcast to.
[00:12:53] Stephanie: Expert on gender [00:12:55] matters, one of a handful of mental health professionals in the world that's willing to speak out against it. [00:13:00] And, and so I developed this niche where I coach parents around the world who [00:13:05] have, uh, young people in their lives that they love, who are confused about gender. [00:13:10] And that's all I do outside of this podcast.
[00:13:12] Stephanie: So I have my course ROGD repair, and I [00:13:15] have my one-on-one coaching as well as the repair bot, uh, AI that I developed. [00:13:20] And in that work I work with a lot of parents of young men who I see [00:13:25] having aggression issues, but it's taking the form of [00:13:30] denial about their biological reality. There's a sense that they can hide [00:13:35] out in a female identity.
[00:13:37] Stephanie: And so these young men will say things like, I don't wanna be [00:13:40] seen as male, just as the girls will say, I don't wanna be seen as female. And so one of the exercises [00:13:45] it'll sometimes do with these parents is actually make a mind map. What are the [00:13:50] associations that this kid might have unconsciously with what that word means?
[00:13:54] Stephanie: The word male, [00:13:55] the word man, for example. Uh, when they say, I don't wanna be seen this way, what are they really [00:14:00] saying? I don't wanna be seen as aggressive. I don't wanna be seen as threatening. [00:14:05] Right? These are some of the associations they have with it. So I get this unique vantage point [00:14:10] with the boys who are using the, the alter [00:14:15] ego identity they've constructed as a way of running and hiding from something that they're scared of and [00:14:20] ashamed of in themselves.
[00:14:21] Stephanie: Something they don't want other people to see. But I think a lot [00:14:25] about what about the young men? The young men for whom that is not their [00:14:30] coping mechanism? And I think that's where you have a perspective on, [00:14:35] you know, all the other young men out there who also are grappling with. [00:14:40] Aggression, sexuality, ambition, drive, everything that comes with [00:14:45] becoming a young man.
[00:14:45] Ryan: I've seen this pop up at primarily in one domain, which is in [00:14:50] relationships. Um, and it's generally heterosexual relationships, and it is a struggle [00:14:55] to assert themselves in a relationship. So this shows up as an inability to use [00:15:00] aggression to essentially divide yourself from the other person you're in a relationship with.[00:15:05]
[00:15:05] Ryan: And there's often, as I, I love the question you ask of like, what, what do you mean by that? I ask this all the [00:15:10] time of like, I don't, you know, I don't wanna be a manm. What, what do you mean by that? Because I know what I mean by this, but [00:15:15] I, I wanna know what you understand this to be. And often you hear things that are like, oh, wow, you have [00:15:20] interpreted or heard, or, you know, somehow gotten all of the most negative, horrible [00:15:25] stereotypes of men.
[00:15:26] Ryan: And of course you wouldn't wanna be that. No one would wanna be that [00:15:30] thing, like this monstrous, destructive, horrible thing. And it's so useful to be like, oh, [00:15:35] okay. Now I understand, okay, this is why you would want to do this and make, you know, [00:15:40] but you're describing to me is, is kind of a new idea to me. I'm like, oh, that makes sense.
[00:15:42] Ryan: Well, yeah, if I associate all of these bad things with this. [00:15:45] Wouldn't I adopt something that doesn't have any of this, or I can hide this [00:15:50] aspect that I don't wanna show anyone. It makes sense to me.
[00:15:51] Stephanie: And so what about the young men that you see before [00:15:55] we start recording? You mentioned look smacking. Yes.
[00:15:58] Stephanie: And we were, we were [00:16:00] commiserating over being close in age. And you know, I was telling you that I often see myself as a [00:16:05] bridge, as an elder, millennial. I'm a bridge between the, the people younger than me and [00:16:10] their parents who are older than me. I'm sort of helping each world understand the other. Looks, [00:16:15] maxing is one of these trends that falls outside of my domain.
[00:16:19] Stephanie: 'cause I know the [00:16:20] lingo about, you know, I, I'm, sometimes I'm the one to break it to parents that their boys [00:16:25] are watching this thing called Sissy Hypnosis pornography. Okay. And I'm the one to break it to [00:16:30] them that, you know, anime and Roblox and Ikea sharks are [00:16:35] all part of the trans culture that they didn't know about.
[00:16:39] Stephanie: Like, I'm in [00:16:40] that role explaining culture. Okay. But I've heard about this looks maxing. I've heard [00:16:45] that for young men, again, outside of my specialty, that, [00:16:50] you know, it's almost like whatever that force is that has been preying on [00:16:55] girls forever to make them concerned about their body image and buy more stuff.[00:17:00]
[00:17:00] Stephanie: It's finding a new market in boys. It's, it's telling boys they need to have [00:17:05] more powerful jaws and. What, what all is going on with the, [00:17:10] the looks maxing thing.
[00:17:11] Ryan: I'll give my take on what's going on. And I think that, like, looks maxing is [00:17:15] like, I, I was telling with you I love words, I love new language and slaying and lingo.
[00:17:19] Ryan: [00:17:20] It's fascinating to me. So I love like the maxing just adding max to end the end of anything. I [00:17:25] think it's hilarious and I love it.
[00:17:26] Stephanie: Oh, I've been saying lately, like we're cheese maxing.
[00:17:29] Ryan: Yeah, it's [00:17:30] great. It's fun. Like I, I don't know. There's, there's, I, I love it. The idea, like the looks maxing [00:17:35] thing to me is just like a bigger, it's, it's a small little piece of a bigger issue, which is I was like, I'm [00:17:40] sure you're familiar with the red pill and like community of men like that, which, you know, I watched, I remember [00:17:45] watching a lot of this when it was first coming up and I'm like, oh, there's some interesting things that are being said here, and they're addressing issues that [00:17:50] are just going totally unaddressed anywhere else in the world.
[00:17:53] Ryan: Um, and to me, I was like, oh, [00:17:55] well that's why these people are garnering attention. This is what they're, they're the only people that are willing to [00:18:00] speak to male aggression and male sexuality in a way that. Made sense to me. I'm like, oh, I, I, I know [00:18:05] those feelings. I know those thoughts. Now I have a big gripe, I think, with these communities as well, which is, I don't [00:18:10] think you're fostering healthy relationships.
[00:18:11] Ryan: I think you're fostering how to attract women, which again, if you [00:18:15] want to attract women for just like sexual purposes, sky's probably have some really good advice. [00:18:20] I'm being totally honest, like I, I don't really have an issue with that, but it's often sold as this is how to [00:18:25] feel good as a man. How to feel masculine in, in any kind of, [00:18:30] I hate to say this, but in an adult way, it feels like, to me it feels like often the, the red pill community is people that are about [00:18:35] 13 years old.
[00:18:36] Ryan: Talking how I was talking when I was 13, I was like, how many chicks can I sleep with? [00:18:40] How hot are they? And as an an adult who's a 39-year-old man with two kids, I've realized [00:18:45] I don't care about any of that. Like, that's, it's like not on the top of my mind. And I, I'm a sexual being and [00:18:50] those things are important, but.
[00:18:51] Ryan: There's other things like having kids and being responsible and having a [00:18:55] career and bringing back to the community that helped you out actually are a lot more important than, [00:19:00] how do I maximize my wealth so I can attract as many women as I possibly can. And so it's not [00:19:05] that they're wrong, it's just they're not telling the whole truth, I think is my, my issue with it.
[00:19:08] Stephanie: It seems like these are young [00:19:10] men who haven't learned the downside of going around [00:19:15] breaking women's hearts.
[00:19:16] Ryan: And I would argue the downside of themselves and, and not even for the [00:19:20] women, just the, you know, soft in these, you look at all the, the majority of the people in [00:19:25] this, none of them are in healthy relationships.
[00:19:27] Ryan: They're not in long term stable [00:19:30] things, that they're not creating a family or something. That is, again, to me is, what else am I doing [00:19:35] here? Like, what, what else is the purpose of kind of being around if I'm not gonna establish or create something [00:19:40] and that takes a toll on these people, it's, you know, it's, wait, you know, if I get a [00:19:45] message from someone, and this happens in therapy as well, is that I get a message that, hey, this is what you need to do.
[00:19:49] Ryan: And [00:19:50] life will be good if you just follow my, you know, 10 step course. And it doesn't work out that [00:19:55] way. 'cause not everyone is, wants the same things as you are. What are, are you again, what are [00:20:00] you actually selling here? Are you selling a, you know, fantasy of just feeling great and powerful all the [00:20:05] time? Or are you telling the truth?
[00:20:07] Ryan: Which is, you know, if you wanna attract women, there's a subset of women that you [00:20:10] can engage in this way and you will attract them and they're, that exists. But let's make sure that that's what you want to [00:20:15] do. Rather than, Hey, I'm feeling really sad and isolated and alone and I want connection. These players [00:20:20] probably are not the right guys that you wanna be talking to.
[00:20:22] Stephanie: It seems to me like [00:20:25] the, uh, sort of subset of the population that we're [00:20:30] starting to talk about is in some ways the other side of the coin of [00:20:35] what I see, like the, the two reinforce each other, [00:20:40] right? Because I see the young people who are. Running from the [00:20:45] reality of their sexed bodies and the gender roles associated with that [00:20:50] even, and oftentimes including, um, people who were very gender [00:20:55] typical before they fell into this.
[00:20:57] Stephanie: You know, I'm, I'm really involved in the gender critical [00:21:00] community online, and one of, one of the things that I'm most annoyed about that's a, a [00:21:05] common trope in that community, I think is untrue, is the idea that everyone who falls [00:21:10] into a trans identity is so, as they say, gender non-conforming. [00:21:15] I, I see so many normal young men and women falling into this [00:21:20] due to one vulnerability or another.
[00:21:21] Stephanie: I see boys who were typical girls who were typical for their [00:21:25] sex before something happened in their lives where this [00:21:30] became an, an internet addiction, a socially mediated. [00:21:35] Um, contagion and, and the apparent solution to their problems. [00:21:40] Um, so it seems like for young men there are these two [00:21:45] paths. Not, I mean, not to oversimplify, 'cause I think whenever you say there's only two of anything, it's an [00:21:50] oversimplification.
[00:21:50] Stephanie: But, but you know that, let's say there, there are these two extremes where [00:21:55] there are people who are just completely rejecting nature's limits, [00:22:00] and then there's this like, hyper-masculine online [00:22:05] culture that encourages boys and men to do these things, like looks maxing. I mean, can you [00:22:10] tell us what, what you know about that segment of the internet and how it's [00:22:15] influencing young men's lives?
[00:22:16] Ryan: I, so I'm not, like, I would say I'm, I'm not an expert on looks acting, but like I [00:22:20] know it gets to the extremity of suggesting I'm doing like methamphetamines to lose [00:22:25] weight. Um, hitting your face with a hammer to reshaped bones. Like these are things I've heard of. [00:22:30] Um, and. Again, I'm always thinking there's a real problem here.
[00:22:33] Ryan: Like people are [00:22:35] searching for solutions and I, I think I have a lot of criticism, I think for the mental health field that I [00:22:40] think we have not provided an alternative solution to this. I think the, i what therapy has [00:22:45] been at least presented socially and outwardly to be, has not been something that people have found very helpful.
[00:22:49] Ryan: A lot of [00:22:50] people have a lot of issues with it. I think there's a lot, not a lot of clear communication. So, well, if I have a problem and well, I've tried [00:22:55] therapy and it didn't work, um, all the other advice I've engaged is like, well here's are these other people [00:23:00] that have some ideas, why would I not go and talk to them?
[00:23:03] Ryan: So I'm always saying like, yeah, I think [00:23:05] there's a legitimate and very real problem in here, but let's [00:23:10] be clear on what the actual issue is. Um, is it loneliness? Is it lack of connection? Is it [00:23:15] social awkwardness? Is it inability to regulate your emotions? And often these things are being sold as like [00:23:20] a, you have a problem?
[00:23:21] Ryan: Well, this is a solution to your problem. And who wouldn't want to take that if you're suffering? And I think a lot [00:23:25] of people are right now.
[00:23:26] Stephanie: What do you think are the most common issues that young men are struggling with? [00:23:30]
[00:23:30] Ryan: The first thing that came to the top of my head, I would say just personal, um, is, you know, as, as a man, [00:23:35] what I struggle with is, I guess being a man in society, having [00:23:40] feelings, um, having aggressive impulses, having sexual impulses.
[00:23:44] Ryan: Um, and you [00:23:45] know, for the last 10 years of my life, you know, I've told that if I look in, in any direction, that is not [00:23:50] like straight ahead or straight down. I've done something pretty bad. I could make people feel uncomfortable. And I feel [00:23:55] the impact on this. You know, when I go to the gym and I go into a room and there's just me and another woman, I'm gonna [00:24:00] go into the corner.
[00:24:01] Ryan: I'm gonna face away. 'cause I don't want to cause damage to someone. [00:24:05] That's what, that's the message I have internalized and I have felt this pretty profoundly when I'm [00:24:10] in a meeting with colleagues. I'm a, I'm a talkative person. I have, I wanna share my ideas, [00:24:15] but I'm often like, don't talk, don't take up space, don't do this.
[00:24:18] Ryan: And so. [00:24:20] These are just natural inclinations of who I am. But I've been told by society, and I've, you know, [00:24:25] it's on my responsibility that I've taken these in, but I've taken it in to say, I need to limit this. I need [00:24:30] to change who I am to conform to fit. 'cause if I don't, the message is kind of, everyone [00:24:35] hates you.
[00:24:35] Ryan: Um, and, and that's one of the, it's a really scary thing on so many, especially at this age that you're talking about younger people. [00:24:40] We just wanna fit in. We're going through this weird stuff. We're trying to figure out who we are, and I just want to fit in. [00:24:45] And if I have an impulse and I were to engage in that, then I get, you know, canceled.
[00:24:49] Ryan: [00:24:50] I get a message around school that I'm this creepy, horrible person because I made an advance on someone and [00:24:55] they rejected me. You hide and you say, well, I don't wanna express this part. I mean, [00:25:00] this express part of me is bad. It's caused damage in my life. And of course, why, why would anyone, why [00:25:05] would anyone want to exhibit something that is harming them in a societal system that does that?
[00:25:09] Stephanie: I think [00:25:10] it's important to know that you are saying all this as a married [00:25:15] husband and father who occupies a, a position in [00:25:20] society that's seen as respectable and responsible. You know, you're, you're [00:25:25] self-employed and you're educated. Um, you know, there's, there's [00:25:30] nothing about you that screams creepy or like [00:25:35] risky in any way.
[00:25:35] Stephanie: Yeah.
[00:25:36] SKOT: That's
[00:25:36] Stephanie: good enough. And, and you had maybe [00:25:40] just enough, I mean, just based on your age, maybe just enough of an opportunity to [00:25:45] come of age before some of these factors became. As intense as [00:25:50] they've been for the younger generation. I'm just thinking if you, as someone who you know [00:25:55] is, is generally so grounded and respectable, [00:26:00] personally, experience those pressures, what does that say about [00:26:05] young men who aren't educated or accomplished or married or, [00:26:10] um, you know, haven't had some of those formative experiences?
[00:26:14] Ryan: Again, our [00:26:15] age of like, we got to see the transition into like the internet and we had that childhood [00:26:20] experience and I, I think there's a huge component of that. Like I just didn't, I got to be a kid with [00:26:25] kids outside and I think that is a huge role in, you know, now they're scrolling these videos [00:26:30] constantly at a very young age and I do think that has a massive impact on them.[00:26:35]
[00:26:35] Ryan: But I, you know, I think one of the challenges for kids nowadays is, again, where do I [00:26:40] look for information? Um, and who can I trust? What adult is gonna tell me the [00:26:45] truth? And so this is one of the things I, I really hate, um, is the [00:26:50] politicalization and idealization of everything. A teacher, you know, if you go into a school, [00:26:55] we're presuming that you have one ideology.
[00:26:56] Ryan: And we we're not able to think aloud. And I think so often [00:27:00] what kids really need right now is a space to just think and just be, and try and [00:27:05] experiment with things. And not to be said, oh, this is who you are. It's like, okay, this is who you wanna [00:27:10] be right now. Okay, great. Like, let's, you can try this.
[00:27:12] Ryan: Honestly, what this is like, I'm not gonna [00:27:15] make any drastic changes to your life because you're going through a place of experiment and we need that. [00:27:20] And I wanna, you know, part of my goal in life is to create spaces where people are allowed to just feel [00:27:25] what they feel. 'cause again, to me, these are just things that happen to us.
[00:27:27] Ryan: We don't actually have a. Control over the thoughts [00:27:30] that enter my mind. One of my beliefs is that if I can understand who I am and that I just have these things and they don't [00:27:35] mean anything, well, I don't have to act on them. And I think so often what is problem is people deny [00:27:40] and suppress these things and they start acting on these impulses that they don't just admit, well, I am a thing that has [00:27:45] thoughts, and sometimes they're weird and random, but that's doesn't mean I am my thoughts.
[00:27:49] Ryan: And so [00:27:50] to me, I, I have a big distinction between what I think, what enters my mind and who I am. And having a space [00:27:55] for people to feel and think and have thoughts and not to be attached to that for the rest of your [00:28:00] life is that, oh, I thought that at one point, but I know me. I changed my mind all the [00:28:05] time.
[00:28:05] Ryan: Constantly when there's new information, you updated. And if someone held me to my opinion or what I said, [00:28:10] or even encouraged my opinion too hard, rather than allowing me to figure it on my own, I might [00:28:15] be a totally different person than I am today.
[00:28:16] Stephanie: I hear you talking about intrusive thoughts and also about [00:28:20] self-image when it comes to self-image and how we.[00:28:25]
[00:28:25] Stephanie: Present ourselves in real life. We influence [00:28:30] how we present ourselves through things like how we dress and groom [00:28:35] ourselves, our facial expressions and body language, and most of all our, our personality and how we interact with [00:28:40] any given situation. Whereas when we're online, we [00:28:45] have to define ourselves using words and images.
[00:28:49] Stephanie: We [00:28:50] use these labels. Um, and, and without that, there's, there's [00:28:55] nothing that comes across just in terms of a vibe. And I think about the young people who have [00:29:00] grown up on the internet and is it really any wonder that they feel so much [00:29:05] pressure to put those labels on themselves as opposed to what you're saying of just [00:29:10] being and having an experience in the moment without feeling like that has to define you, [00:29:15] especially while you're still under construction
[00:29:16] Ryan: and there's so much, um.
[00:29:18] Ryan: Incentive to do [00:29:20] these things like, you know, to put a label on there. It's, of course if I wanna fit into a group, I put a label on and that [00:29:25] group will accept me, you know, for a period of time. You know, I, I have a theory on [00:29:30] the social media, so working in schools, this fascinating thing would happen where you sit next to me in math [00:29:35] class and when I go home in the afternoon, I'm gonna talk so much shit about you online almost as if I forget that [00:29:40] I'm sitting next to you in my math class tomorrow.
[00:29:42] Ryan: And we'll have to deal with the consequences of doing this. And I [00:29:45] think so much of what is happening now is that we don't do, I mean this is a bit closer to [00:29:50] face-to-face, but we don't do face-to-face interaction. I think like, well what happens is that when I'm talking to you now, [00:29:55] I get to see your face and if I say something funny, I get to see her smile.
[00:29:58] Ryan: If I say something offensive, I might see a [00:30:00] scowl in your face. There's immediate feedback. I know instantly within my [00:30:05] own body I will have sensations that will tell me how I'm doing in the conversation, what's going on. [00:30:10] Social media there just doesn't exist, or the delay is so far past [00:30:15] what I think human beings are wired to do.
[00:30:18] Ryan: We don't see that this is another person [00:30:20] that we're talking to. It's an object or it's a thing. It's, it's something that's not human. And I think there's a huge [00:30:25] problem with so much online interactions that. We're not equipped to do it. [00:30:30] I have to put so much effort on Twitter to remind myself that, hey, that's a person there.[00:30:35]
[00:30:35] Ryan: Um, they're sitting behind their computer. I need to not be a dick. 'cause I, I have very, my sense [00:30:40] of humor is very sharp. I grew up around boys and it's just, well, how we joke around is be as [00:30:45] mean as we possibly can to one another and in the most humorous way. And I think that's funny. That's how I [00:30:50] like to interact with my friends.
[00:30:50] Ryan: But I have to remember, oh, I don't know this person. They don't know me. They can't see my little smile in me giggling [00:30:55] as I type this because I think it's funny and I don't mean harm by it. And we forget all of these [00:31:00] little nuances that help us mediate in person interactions. It's just gone [00:31:05] and it just happened and we didn't really think about the consequences of it.
[00:31:08] Ryan: And it's [00:31:10] continuing to happen. And for me, it kind of just continues to play out over and over and over again. [00:31:15]
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[00:32:02] Stephanie: A lot of them have [00:32:05] traits and I'm often left wondering [00:32:10] are they neurologically different in some sort of [00:32:15] meaningful and lasting way, or are we looking at social [00:32:20] developmental delays? Partly because of lack of, um, [00:32:25] realtime social experiences.
[00:32:27] Ryan: Yeah, it's, it's one of those questions I'm like, I don't know, [00:32:30] but it seems feasible that we should really be looking into stuff like this of what happens when you [00:32:35] cut in-person.
[00:32:36] Ryan: Human communication in half and probably more than that honestly. [00:32:40] Like it where we're at and what are the effects of that and what is the consequence? How does this impact [00:32:45] development and um, how does it impact even just something I'm really obsessed about is play with [00:32:50] kids. The play has changed and now kids still play.
[00:32:54] Ryan: [00:32:55] Often they're playing at their computers with each other, not in the same room. And again, it's a subtle little thing. And [00:33:00] I'm a huge, I played video games as I was a little kid. I engaged with my friends this way. And it's wonderful. It's a way to [00:33:05] connect. It's not the same though. It's not the same as being in the same room.
[00:33:08] Ryan: There's always these memes of [00:33:10] like, look back at the nineties, how cool it was like you're in your room with a posters up, you have dominoes and [00:33:15] all of the things. And it was a, an experience being in the same place as people having [00:33:20] to make room for everyone. And it was just, it was, the investment was [00:33:25] different.
[00:33:25] Ryan: I can hop on, talk to my friends, play a game, play a game online with them, hop back off, go [00:33:30] take care of my kids, jump back on. And it's very flexible. No, I had to commit to someone if I said I was coming to your [00:33:35] house, I had to come to your house. And we kind of had to stay there. And we had to figure out, well, what do you wanna do?
[00:33:39] Ryan: And it wasn't [00:33:40] just, I'm only gonna interact with my friend when he's doing the same thing that I'm doing. And then that's. [00:33:45] Interactions have changed immensely. And I do think there's an impact. And my que my answer is, I'm not sure how it [00:33:50] impacts them, but I'm sure that it does.
[00:33:51] Stephanie: Tell us more about what you see going on with young men these days.
[00:33:54] Stephanie: What they're [00:33:55] struggling with, what kind of help they need.
[00:33:57] Ryan: So the first thing that came to my mind, um, and I think it's something that [00:34:00] we've probably seen throughout our lives, I mean, through history, is men [00:34:05] having some form of purpose, meaning, or ritual that helps us develop into a man. And [00:34:10] what does that even mean?
[00:34:11] Ryan: What is the role that a man plays in our society? Something, I'm not sure the answer to that [00:34:15] question anymore. Um, I think, again, if we think of ourselves as kind of biological [00:34:20] beings, my body was equipped to do a very specific task that I think is outdated. [00:34:25] Um, I don't know my purposes anymore. In some sense, I was built to be violent and aggressive when necessary to fight [00:34:30] to hunt.
[00:34:30] Ryan: I don't do any of that. I get to go to the grocery store. I've never been in a physical [00:34:35] altercation. I'm actually kind of proud of that. I don't want to fight people. I, I'm not built for it. [00:34:40] Uh, psychologically, but there's a real question of like, well, what am I doing and what is actually my [00:34:45] purpose? And is there something about what, who I am that I can leverage and utilize?
[00:34:49] Ryan: [00:34:50] And I think that's a real open question that I would love to, to dig deeper and of like, what is, [00:34:55] what is a male's role in our current society? And it, you know, again, back to the [00:35:00] messages you hear, I so often heard these messages of, you know, I would see 'em on magazine covers of like, women, women [00:35:05] don't need men anymore.
[00:35:06] Ryan: Um, we've essentially replaced you. And it's, again, I just, [00:35:10] I can feel that sentiment of like, oh yeah, we are kind of obsolete. Um, and I actually [00:35:15] lent some creds to that idea of like the natural things that we tended to and [00:35:20] got power and authority and meaning and purpose for. There's not a lot of that anymore.
[00:35:24] Ryan: And [00:35:25] I'm not saying there aren't alternative routes. I think there really is, but it's not obvious. [00:35:30] Um, the world's become a lot more complicated and it's not, okay, well you go into the military or you become a farmer. It's. [00:35:35] You only had so many options and now there's too many options. There's an [00:35:40] unlimited amount of options.
[00:35:40] Ryan: I think some people are confused of, well, which one do I take and where do I actually [00:35:45] fit in where it would feel natural, it would feel good for me.
[00:35:47] Stephanie: It's sort of the combination of factors [00:35:50] that, for one, we don't know what the job market's gonna look like in 10 years. [00:35:55] It's changing so rapidly today.
[00:35:56] Ryan: No idea.
[00:35:57] Stephanie: Um. So I, I [00:36:00] really feel for anyone having to make any career related decisions right now, whether that's young people coming of [00:36:05] age or, or people in any stage of life who are losing jobs or [00:36:10] yes, at risk of losing jobs. So that's real. Um, but what we do know [00:36:15] is that, you know, the, the majority of well-paying jobs as [00:36:20] well as the majority of opportunities for those who are more entrepreneurial, [00:36:25] um, are mental work, computer based work.
[00:36:28] Stephanie: Um, [00:36:30] and, and that doesn't necessarily provide a clear outlet like you're saying, for [00:36:35] those aggressive drives.
[00:36:37] Ryan: Even just the physicality of things. You know, I, I, when I, when [00:36:40] I worked at schools, I was always lamenting that we didn't have a trade program for. [00:36:45] Even with ai, we're gonna need people to do things with their hands until the robots entirely take [00:36:50] over.
[00:36:50] Ryan: And I don't know about any of that, but for, for a period of time, we're gonna need people to do things. And the idea [00:36:55] that I could do something that my hands build, to use my physical strength to create something [00:37:00] is an area that I think, you know, societally we have just kind of ppo. Like, it's just not, [00:37:05] it's not nice, it's not a cool thing.
[00:37:06] Ryan: You're not, you know, your parents are be like, I hope you become a plumber. It's, I hope you become a lawyer, [00:37:10] an IT person, and you know, an engineer of people that are doing things with their minds. And [00:37:15] I think we've really diminished the value of the people that keep our lights on, um, the people that keep the [00:37:20] water running.
[00:37:20] Ryan: And that not only can you make some decent money actually doing this, but it actually can give you real [00:37:25] purpose to see I built that house. And to see that, oh, your lights turn on because I fixed the power lines [00:37:30] during the storm. Um, and to have a mission or something to be working on with physicality, [00:37:35] I think again, it's a, I think it's always interesting to look at the moment in time we are society and [00:37:40] it's not very much physicality is.
[00:37:42] Ryan: Almost entirely looked down upon, um, [00:37:45] as something kind of beneath us.
[00:37:46] Stephanie: Are you familiar with Maxim Smith and the preparation?
[00:37:49] Ryan: [00:37:50] No, I'm not.
[00:37:50] Stephanie: I interviewed him on this podcast. He, he's like 19, going on [00:37:55] 30. Um, very impressive young man. Um, he, he worked with his father and [00:38:00] father's friend on this program. Uh, that's basically like a [00:38:05] self-guided.
[00:38:06] Stephanie: Way of coming up with your own curriculum as an [00:38:10] alternative to college. And it's, it's geared toward young men. Um, [00:38:15] although I think there's been talk of what would, what would the female equivalent [00:38:20] be? Um, I mean, some of, not to say that women can't do the same [00:38:25] things as men, but we are, like you said, built for different purposes and have different strengths.[00:38:30]
[00:38:30] Stephanie: Um, so he did like three months at a time teaching [00:38:35] himself, you know, wilderness first aid and, you know, um, [00:38:40] life guarding and, and fence mending and just all these different experiences, [00:38:45] which seem like such a more classic way to learn through experience [00:38:50] and such a great way to build self-confidence as well.
[00:38:53] Stephanie: But it seems like. [00:38:55] Rather than those, um, experiences being built into how [00:39:00] we live, it's up to young people and those who love them to [00:39:05] come up with these plans to figure out how, how are we gonna get our son some [00:39:10] real life experiences, some, uh, you know, ways of building skills [00:39:15] and confidence and self-esteem.
[00:39:16] Stephanie: I
[00:39:17] Ryan: think it's always interesting to think about like the, how school [00:39:20] has evolved where school was a niche thing for highly educated, [00:39:25] gifted people, and now school is ubiquitous for everyone. And so this model that worked with a [00:39:30] highly motivated, you know, certain level of intellectual profile, now it's just for [00:39:35] everyone.
[00:39:35] Ryan: And I, I certainly worked with kids who they just couldn't do the bookwork. I myself, [00:39:40] I can't read poetry. You'll see me complaining on Twitter about it all the time. I cannot read highly [00:39:45] analytical texts with big words. It just doesn't make sense to me. But if it can be explained to me in a different [00:39:50] way, if I can use real world examples or if you can use objects to help me understand something, [00:39:55] I can grasp it.
[00:39:56] Ryan: And so trying to think of like an alternative program, like you know, as you were just mentioning, [00:40:00] oh, here's something that someone learns and is able, and actually maybe highly proficient with their hands [00:40:05] and with their spatial awareness to see how things are put together. But we've only given them the one [00:40:10] route essentially, which is, well, you have to be book smart and if you're not book smart, there's something wrong with you and we'll give you a disability, et [00:40:15] cetera.
[00:40:15] Ryan: You know, the whole, and there's all issues with disability classifications in my head of. Well, [00:40:20] yes, it's a, it's a disability given the way the systems are set up, but we only have one kind of system. Um, so I, you know, [00:40:25] one of the things I would love to see in education is that diversification of different minds are [00:40:30] adapted to different things.
[00:40:30] Ryan: Um, and like I think, like you mentioned, it's not necessarily right down the line of like gender [00:40:35] or sex, but that there is a population statistics we should pay attention to. And for [00:40:40] me personally, I think it's kind of more bang for your buck is kind of what I'm going for is not for perfection, but I see a [00:40:45] population that needs something.
[00:40:46] Ryan: Why not give it to 'em? Even if it doesn't include everyone. There's a huge [00:40:50] need in this domain that why don't we give this a shot? Again, I'm not looking for, for [00:40:55] perfection, but we have. Nothing right now, essentially to me in my eyes, it's not nothing but very, very, [00:41:00] very little in this kind of, you know, it's a 19 year olds making this amazing program.
[00:41:03] Ryan: Says something about the estate of [00:41:05] affairs.
[00:41:05] Stephanie: Earlier you said one of the things that young men need is a sense of purpose. And [00:41:10] I would link purpose to accomplishment. Accomplishment as the manifestation [00:41:15] of purpose and, and as we sort of acquire a history of [00:41:20] accomplishments that can contribute to a sense of purpose or direction.
[00:41:24] Stephanie: And I think [00:41:25] one of the problems I have with the educational system is that young people reach 18 without [00:41:30] necessarily having accomplished much that they can be proud of. Yes, [00:41:35] they got certain test scores and completed essays on [00:41:40] topics that they were directed to write about if, if they're even writing their own essays anymore, but.
[00:41:44] Stephanie: [00:41:45] When I'm working with parents of youth who are approaching 18, one of the tools I sometimes use [00:41:50] is, is I'll, I'll advise them to talk with their kid about what skills [00:41:55] and interests they have, uh, what's, what they've already developed, what they're currently learning, [00:42:00] and ask their kid what would it feel good to reach 18 having [00:42:05] accomplished.
[00:42:05] Stephanie: Um, you know, there's no reason, uh, this day and age [00:42:10] that a person can't reach 18 having [00:42:15] already done something like coded an app [00:42:20] or, um, painted a mural or, you know, [00:42:25] depending on whatever their skills and interests might be. And, and I think the completion of [00:42:30] an actual project that has some meaning outside of the sort of arbitrary standards set up by the [00:42:35] school system, those are the sorts of things that, that you can take with you.
[00:42:39] Ryan: It [00:42:40] made me think like the number one question I would hear in the schools is, why am I doing this? I never had [00:42:45] an answer 'cause I, this was my answer was, you're right. The reason you're doing this is I am, [00:42:50] the school is teaching you how to do things you don't like to do. And I think that's actually a very important lesson in life is how do I [00:42:55] do things that I don't like to do?
[00:42:56] Ryan: But that was the only honest answer I was able to give them. 'cause a lot of these kids, no, you weren't gonna use these [00:43:00] skills. And that is just the honest answer. And I, you know, to me, I was, I got through [00:43:05] education through minimum, the minimum u minimum amount of time I could spend on my [00:43:10] education is what I did.
[00:43:10] Ryan: 'cause I realized, oh, they're just seeing if I can write a paper [00:43:15] now. This paper doesn't have to be mean anything. Um, it doesn't have to be important. It doesn't have to be useful. [00:43:20] It has to meet the metrics that my teacher is requiring me of doing. As opposed to when [00:43:25] I was in my internship program in grad school, that meant a lot to me.
[00:43:28] Ryan: There was a human being in front of me. There was [00:43:30] someone that needed something that was real. And I felt so much stronger [00:43:35] about those processes, those applications of my knowledge to I wanna work with this kid because. I actually [00:43:40] care. I don't care about this paper. I know this doesn't matter. The reason I was doing this was I needed the [00:43:45] piece, piece of paper at the end of the, uh, of grad school so I could do the job.
[00:43:48] Ryan: That was my only [00:43:50] motivation to do this was, but since I've left, I love learning. I am [00:43:55] constantly reading. I'm bugging people on Twitter to teach me stuff 'cause I don't understand it constantly. And I [00:44:00] want that. But I had to have my own reason for doing that. And if I, I, I think like myself, like other [00:44:05] people, just 'cause someone told me to is not a good reason.
[00:44:08] Ryan: And I see it in my practice [00:44:10] quite often, which is I was, I did what I was told to do. I was really good at doing what I was told to do for 40 [00:44:15] years and fucking miserable. I, I hate my life. I followed the plan that everyone else [00:44:20] told me to do and I never asked, stopped and asked, is that what I want to be doing?
[00:44:24] Ryan: [00:44:25] I just got really good at following the rules and really good at reading. Okay, this system wants this outta me. I'll just, [00:44:30] I'll give it to it and I'll get the reward. Um. No one ever stopped to ask [00:44:35] like, Hey, what do you actually want to do? Or Are you just gaming the system? And I, I, my observation, a lot of people learned how [00:44:40] to game the system.
[00:44:41] Ryan: Um, I was one of them. So I, I know from firsthand experience,
[00:44:43] Stephanie: I appreciate the [00:44:45] honesty. I think I, I can relate to some of that just, okay, what hoops do [00:44:50] I have to jump through here? And you raise a fair point that there [00:44:55] is value in learning how to persevere through and complete [00:45:00] tasks that you're not personally motivated to complete, but toward what end [00:45:05] and what's the ratio of that to things that [00:45:10] are personally meaningful, motivating, and rewarding.
[00:45:13] Stephanie: And I think when the ratio is off, it's [00:45:15] demoralizing. And I think that is pretty much the nature of a lot of [00:45:20] education is because there's so much of it that just feels so pointless. Whereas, [00:45:25] you know, for me personally. I, I can [00:45:30] accomplish, I can also do things I don't want to do, um, [00:45:35] if it's part of accomplishing something bigger that I do want to do.
[00:45:39] Stephanie: And I feel like [00:45:40] that is the why that we could really strengthen for a lot of these young [00:45:45] people, because the thing that they want to do is, you know, get good [00:45:50] grades so they can graduate from high school so that they can get into a good college, get a good scholarship to college. You [00:45:55] know, it's these like big milestones that they're working toward as opposed to something [00:46:00] more like real life where there's a particular project.
[00:46:04] Stephanie: You know, for [00:46:05] example, if you're motivated to buy your first house, um, you're gonna have to learn [00:46:10] about mortgage insurance and you're gonna have to read a bunch of boring [00:46:15] contract stuff. And, you know, there are things that you're gonna have to learn how to do. But it's all [00:46:20] for the sake of something where you can visualize that concrete outcome and that is [00:46:25] your goal.
[00:46:25] Stephanie: That's how real life works. And I don't feel like the educational system [00:46:30] does a good enough job of emulating that.
[00:46:31] Ryan: No, I, I, I think you're absolutely right. It's, that was the most [00:46:35] honest answer that I could give them. It is still kind of bs. It's like, yeah, this is way too much of this. [00:46:40] Um, we are revolving this, this whole education system around what we want you to do rather than [00:46:45] what, trying to help you figure out what it is that you want to do.
[00:46:48] Ryan: Um, and you know, I also [00:46:50] recognize, I, I will talk a lot of negativity about the school system. I also think like pragmatically how to do this [00:46:55] is extraordinarily challenging. Um, to actually set up a system in [00:47:00] which we're teaching everyone, um, and within the laws that we have in this country, which is we have to provide everyone a [00:47:05] free access to public education, um, by law.
[00:47:08] Ryan: And how do we do this in this [00:47:10] very individualized, nuanced way where we have people spending time with these kids to work through some [00:47:15] of these problems. And one of the challenges that I saw in the school was. We try to do this through, uh, [00:47:20] social emotional learning programs or SELs, which I'm, I have feeling you've probably talked about before, and it's, well, who's implementing this?[00:47:25]
[00:47:25] Ryan: How is it being implemented? So even some of these ideas, I love it when we get down [00:47:30] to like the real nitty gritty of like, how do we actually do these things? It's extraordinarily [00:47:35] challenging, it's really expensive. And to find the actual like human power that has the [00:47:40] education and emotional bandwidth to work with, you know, kids at this level.[00:47:45]
[00:47:45] Ryan: Part of me is like, I, I, I sometimes despair. I'm like, it's not just that we don't know [00:47:50] how to do it, it's that do we even have the actual resources to provide some of these things? [00:47:55] Or, you know, some of these problems are societal issues where often in the school setting, we, we would [00:48:00] have this feeling of like, wait, I have to not only educate your kids, but I have to be their parents too.
[00:48:03] Ryan: And I have to like tell them like [00:48:05] right from wrong 'cause, and it's, how do we have this balance where the schools, we, I think over relied on the school [00:48:10] systems to provide a lot more than what schools should provide, which is just. [00:48:15] Facts, like we should be teaching you things. And we've taken this also the emotional care in sel, [00:48:20] which again, I, there's a, I see a purpose to it.
[00:48:22] Ryan: I don't wanna be like super, I'm not like black, white [00:48:25] on it. But there's some problems, um, and some concerns that is, again, just 'cause it [00:48:30] sounds good. It doesn't mean the actual implementation in any one individual school is actually [00:48:35] a good thing. And recognize that some of this is marketing. We are selling programs, [00:48:40] schools are, you know, these programs, these SELs are someone's business, the schools are a [00:48:45] business.
[00:48:45] Ryan: Very often they wanna market that they're using the new, hottest, freshest, SEL and that gets more [00:48:50] enrollment and enrollment's how these schools make money. So there's so many economic incentives that these are [00:48:55] really, I think, my stance in most things. These are really complex problems and they're really, really [00:49:00] challenging and a lot of like, you know, throw money at it or this people always have like one idea and if we just did this [00:49:05] one thing, it would fix everything.
[00:49:06] Ryan: And it's just, we've never been in this system. Um, it's a lot more [00:49:10] complex than this. It's a lot more complicated and mean. We have a lot more challenges and I'm a big person. I don't like [00:49:15] criticizing stuff very much 'cause it's cheap and it's easy. I can criticize things all day. How you actually build something like [00:49:20] this is such a monumental challenge.
[00:49:22] Ryan: But I do think it starts with these conversations at first. [00:49:25] What are we even trying to build? What are we doing? Why are we doing the things that we have been doing for the last 50 [00:49:30] years and does it work? Is it producing the results that we want? And it seems pretty clear, almost universally. I think [00:49:35] everyone is pretty displeased with how the education system is running.
[00:49:37] Stephanie: I don't personally know enough about [00:49:40] SEL to critique it, but I have had some, some knowledgeable guests come on the show. Um. [00:49:45] To be honest, I'm forgetting. Let's see. Jason Littlefield, I think is one. Um, but it's [00:49:50] been a while since we spoke. And, um, Jonathan Cogburn, I know is a mutual friend of [00:49:55] yours. He's spoke about these sort of things.
[00:49:57] Stephanie: Um, I get the overall impression. SEL [00:50:00] and schools in general are not super boy friendly,
[00:50:03] Ryan: so I can speak to [00:50:05] especially schools. Uh, I would say definitely not boy friendly. Um, in [00:50:10] SEL, it, it would depend on the program. Some of them I actually think actually are tailored towards specifically boys and do a [00:50:15] decent job.
[00:50:15] Ryan: Um, and again, it's a lot in the details as who's, who's implementing this and for what [00:50:20] population are we doing so often these are just like kind of, well, the whole school's doing it rather than let's target this [00:50:25] intervention for the people that it was actually built for targeting rather than just kind of doing it.
[00:50:29] Ryan: For everyone. [00:50:30] Um, but as far as like, just even like, these are stupid things that I know everyone has always talked about, but [00:50:35] taking dodge ball outta school, just, we've taken all physicality out of stuff. I, we used to play a game. I [00:50:40] remember in middle school we called it wall ball or butts up or throw a tennis ball against the wall.
[00:50:43] Ryan: You could catch it, but if you miss [00:50:45] the ball and someone throws it against the wall, you have to line up on the wall and they get to peg you as hard as they want [00:50:50] against the wall. And I loved it. It was the most fun game. I was a baseball player, so [00:50:55] I was good at it and I won. But there was something about that was normal and [00:51:00] healthy and it was not, it was a often, I think, ferment a bonding experience for me.
[00:51:04] Ryan: It was [00:51:05] through physical pain and hardship. We actually got closer together to a lot of my friends. And we use these, [00:51:10] whether it's in sports, is, you know, the most typical. But even in just play, [00:51:15] um, I see it all the time, but with my kids there's often it's just, oh, they need to stop arguing. And I'm like, they're okay.[00:51:20]
[00:51:20] Ryan: I, I, like, I see my, I have a 10-year-old son and he. Talks crap to his friends all the time [00:51:25]
[00:51:25] SKOT: and they're laughing
[00:51:26] Ryan: most of the time when they're doing this. And of course they step over the line like kids do and they have [00:51:30] to learn from those experiences. But I don't want to take away what, again, I find most valuable.
[00:51:34] Ryan: [00:51:35] My favorite thing to do is get with a bunch of guys and just rip on each other. It's so much [00:51:40] fun. I don't notice grab it or why it is that way, but that seems to be just a [00:51:45] part of me. 'cause I know I'm not the only one that like, that's like that all of my male friends are like this. It's just how we [00:51:50] interact.
[00:51:50] Ryan: And there's not that we don't have tender parts of us. I'm, I would say I'm actually quite feminine [00:51:55] in a lot of ways and very in touch. I'm a very sensitive person, but. I acknowledge I [00:52:00] have this other part of me and I feed it and it's healthy for me to feed it. 'cause once that's fed, I'm good. I [00:52:05] can go do all of these other things.
[00:52:06] Ryan: I can go be a normal, not creepy person in society, but I got my itch scratched in [00:52:10] like a pro-social way, in a healthy way. And I, I, what I think, you know, ends up happening is people are gonna [00:52:15] scratch the it 'cause they're itching. Um, and they're gonna do it however way they possibly can. [00:52:20] And if it's a degenerate bad way that's harmful to society, that's what they're gonna do.
[00:52:23] Ryan: Um, or if [00:52:25] they find a community that is willing to encourage them and help them up and, you know, work with them, [00:52:30] they'll, I'll probably choose that one. I just don't think that there's a lot of those options. It's not easy to find that right [00:52:35] now.
[00:52:35] Stephanie: It was such a learning curve for me as a stepmom to two boys.
[00:52:38] Stephanie: Um, because, [00:52:40] you know, I didn't have that gradual transition into parenthood that a biological parent does. [00:52:45] Sure. It's just, um, you know, and, and granted we had years to get to know each other before we, you [00:52:50] know, got married, but I. There, there's so much of just boys [00:52:55] being boys that is inherently, um, [00:53:00] uh, disharmonious with my delicate nature, let's say.
[00:53:03] Stephanie: Fair enough. You know? [00:53:05] But I had to like, uh, just, just to keep reframing, like, [00:53:10] this is, this is what they need to do. And my job is usually just [00:53:15] give them space to do it. And, you know, for my husband too, it's, there's a fair [00:53:20] amount of, um, code switching between boy mode and, [00:53:25] and wifey mode. Especially considering that we, you know, the kids are with us part of the time and so [00:53:30] sometimes I'll.
[00:53:31] Stephanie: When we're transitioning out of boy mode, he'll bring some of that [00:53:35] energy to me and I'll be like, um, remember I'm your wife. I'm not your son.
[00:53:38] Ryan: I'm good. I'm good. Set enough. [00:53:40]
[00:53:40] Stephanie: And you know, the, the boys and I bring out much different sides of him and, and [00:53:45] those are all parts of being a man. But I, I think it gets a bad rep.
[00:53:49] Stephanie: [00:53:50] And, and I appreciate that you brought up here the importance of play. [00:53:55] Because part of what's going on in those processes that seem so [00:54:00] obnoxious and pointless at first glance to those of us with, you know, more sensitive [00:54:05] dispositions, part of what's actually happening is there's, they're, they're learning conflict resolution.
[00:54:09] Stephanie: [00:54:10] They're learning boundaries and assertion. They're learning, you know, some of the things that [00:54:15] you demonstrated when you had that rather upbeat [00:54:20] response to the kid being disrespectful. Right. You, you're learning a. And, and, and [00:54:25] I see what's happening with so much helicopter parenting, [00:54:30] the feminization of education and things like that.
[00:54:33] Stephanie: Um, even the [00:54:35] most, well-meaning parents like, and I've coached single moms through this, like very [00:54:40] lovely, lovely, thoughtful women, but they're women and they think like, I think, and they're [00:54:45] not necessarily thinking like a boy thinks. And you know, there, there are moments [00:54:50] that even the best moms have to learn how to step back and not [00:54:55] rescue their son from a conflict with another boy on the playground because.
[00:54:59] Stephanie: [00:55:00] That boy is finding out, can, can he roll with us? Can he [00:55:05] fight back? Can he negotiate? Right? And, and if that boy's all always [00:55:10] going to his mom, like, oh no, so-and-so hurt my feelings. Right? Like, he is not [00:55:15] gonna make it. And,
[00:55:16] Ryan: and I think you bring up, I think is so important for people to [00:55:20] not shame the parents that are doing this.
[00:55:22] Ryan: 'cause I think so often it's, I love my kid and I would [00:55:25] do anything for them. And to see them in distress, it's horrible. Like it is [00:55:30] genuinely a horrible experience as a parent to see the thing you love most in distress. And, you [00:55:35] know, like you could just take it away. I could go do something and take it away.
[00:55:39] Ryan: That's not my, [00:55:40] I, I don't feel like that is my role as a parent. My role is to help you set up a safe enough [00:55:45] environment that you can go figure it out on your own. If you have a conflict with your friend, I'm not gonna text his mom about it. I refuse to [00:55:50] go talk to him about it. Have you talked to him yet about this yet?
[00:55:53] Ryan: Now again, there are [00:55:55] lines of everything and I, you know, this idea of like boys being boys, I think we should let them be boys. And [00:56:00] there's also a line of behavior that male masculinity [00:56:05] is absolutely destructive. And we do need to have a firm line with boys of like, Hey, you've [00:56:10] crossed the line. Um, and trying to figure out where that is as a society I think is kind of what we're [00:56:15] going through right now.
[00:56:15] Ryan: Why everyone's screaming at each other about these things is we're trying to figure out like, where is the actually [00:56:20] healthy line? We maybe went too far into letting boys be boys for a long time, and I think [00:56:25] we went too far now in the other direction of we're very careful and scared of boys expressing kind [00:56:30] of natural male inclination.
[00:56:31] Ryan: I, my hope is that we're gonna find somewhere that is, [00:56:35] listen, like we have to all get along, we all live here and we have to function [00:56:40] well, and we have to figure out where is this line actually and what is [00:56:45] healthy? Aggression. What is healthy sexuality and should we punish these [00:56:50] things? And to me the line is always thoughts and feelings.
[00:56:52] Ryan: We shouldn't really punish them. It's actions that [00:56:55] we need to curb and we need to be cautious of. But allowing kids to think through, I, you know, [00:57:00] I wanna punch 'em in the face. This is my favorite thing. When a kids would come into my office and they're having a fight at the school was, [00:57:05] he'll come in, I wanna punch this other kid in the face.
[00:57:07] Ryan: And most people were like, you can't do that. No, no, no, no. [00:57:10] I'm like, huh, what do you think will happen if you did that? And I just entertain, he's already [00:57:15] thinking about it. Let me just entertain the idea. Without fail. Almost every single [00:57:20] time they walk through that, 'cause I'm encouraging them to do it, and they're like, that sounds like a lot of work.
[00:57:24] Ryan: I don't [00:57:25] know if I wanna do that anymore. And they changed their mind. But just 'cause it wasn't, I'm not telling you don't punch 'em in the face, [00:57:30] you're pissed off, you're angry. I don't think you're telling me I'm going to go. You're expressing an emotion [00:57:35] to me. You're expressing a thought to me, which is someone did something that I found, let's say disrespectful and I [00:57:40] wanna hurt them To me.
[00:57:43] Ryan: That is a normal impulse. I have those [00:57:45] impulses. When someone does something to me, I fantasize about harming them. Again, like I said, I've never been [00:57:50] in physical altercation. I have never heard anyone. Um, well, I, I'm sure I've heard someone, but not like with [00:57:55] intentional malice. But I have those thoughts and fantasies and I don't, I allow [00:58:00] myself to think that and not like, oh my God, I don't think, oh, what a monster.
[00:58:02] Ryan: It's, oh, I'm really angry at this person. [00:58:05] This person really violated a boundary of mine. And that's what I take from my thoughts [00:58:10] and maybe in fantasies, and I allow myself to play with it. It's, there's no harm there. If I can recognize, [00:58:15] okay, this is in me. I don't have to act on this. I can choose a, as an adult, I can [00:58:20] choose a different action and recognize, oh, okay, someone crossed a line.
[00:58:23] Ryan: What do I actually wanna do about that? Rather than [00:58:25] what would feel good would be to punch them. But I, I have, I have kids to worry about. I have a job and a career I, I would like to [00:58:30] maintain.
[00:58:31] Stephanie: I'm gonna connect a few different dots.
[00:58:34] Ryan: Okay.
[00:58:34] Stephanie: Um, I [00:58:35] love that response. What do you think will happen if you do that?
[00:58:39] Stephanie: [00:58:40] Um, I think it shows. So much respect for self-determination [00:58:45] and intellect and, um, with the [00:58:50] parents that I coach, some of the techniques that I use are kind of along those [00:58:55] lines of, um, letting kids actually think through things themselves. [00:59:00] 'cause that is the best way for them to learn their own lessons.
[00:59:04] Stephanie: [00:59:05] And it seems like through that process and the examples that you give, [00:59:10] you arrive at a place of people being able to [00:59:15] make their own decisions to do the right thing, not because someone [00:59:20] else told them. Right? But this, this is self-regulation here. And [00:59:25] I wanna contrast that with intrusive thoughts, which you mentioned earlier, because it's my [00:59:30] understanding that how people develop problems with intrusive thoughts, like obsessive [00:59:35] compulsive disorder, for example, has a lot to do with not.
[00:59:39] Stephanie: Trusting [00:59:40] that process of being able to actually think something all the way through. In other words, so [00:59:45] you have an aggressive impulse, like you said, I wanna punch that guy in the face. A person with obsessive [00:59:50] compulsive disorder, their mind is gonna get stuck there. They're gonna go, oh my goodness, I'm such a terrible [00:59:55] person.
[00:59:55] Stephanie: I wanna punch this person in the face. Can I trust myself not to punch them in the face? What if I can't trust myself [01:00:00] not to punch 'em in the face? Now I need to do this obsessive ritual to make sure I don't punch 'em in the face right. Because they [01:00:05] don't have that freedom to go, okay, what would happen if I did that?
[01:00:08] Stephanie: Hmm. Do I wanna deal [01:00:10] with those consequences? Probably not. Do I have another choice besides punching 'em in the face? Yeah. I can [01:00:15] go blow off some steam by shooting some hoops. Um, okay. Problem solved, right? Yeah. It's like [01:00:20] the, the whole, um, closing the loop. But I, I kind of feel like when there's not. [01:00:25] Room for people to have their aggressive impulses and autonomy and [01:00:30] self-managing and self-regulating.
[01:00:32] Stephanie: Then we end up with this highly [01:00:35] neurotic culture of people not trusting themselves.
[01:00:37] Ryan: To tie this into, like with your parents, I think one of the [01:00:40] challenges is I, I really try to maintain neutrality. It's, I don't get to choose what other people do in their lives. [01:00:45] I would hate that. I am very defiant, and when people try to tell me what to do, like I lose my mind.
[01:00:49] Ryan: It is just who I am, [01:00:50] so I wanna give that same respect to everyone else. But the hard part about that, and I think especially probably for the [01:00:55] parents that you work with, is that I have to allow my child to maybe make a bad decision. That that's the risk of [01:01:00] freedom is like, Hey, I'm gonna give it the choice.
[01:01:02] Ryan: He might walk outta my office and punch someone in the face. Like that is a [01:01:05] distinct possibility that they may do this. My usual is like, okay, [01:01:10] like he will deal with the consequences of this and maybe this will be the next thing after the [01:01:15] consequences of this action. Maybe that'll be what opens his eyes to a different path, and I think you [01:01:20] have to allow people to make their own choices and live with their own choices.
[01:01:24] Ryan: I always, I, you know, something I [01:01:25] often say when I'm working with therapy people, the reason I don't give anyone advice is that, well, if I give you [01:01:30] advice, well, I'm the smart one and I give you good advice. Uh, if the advice didn't work well, then you get to blame [01:01:35] me. Either one of those situations, I don't like either one of those.
[01:01:37] Ryan: I want you to come up with your own solutions and [01:01:40] be realize that you have the ability and talent to listen to yourself to understand what it is that you [01:01:45] want. To take action on that and for you to feel the consequences of your own actions, not [01:01:50] that other people pushing you around telling you what to do.
[01:01:51] Ryan: And I think often with the kids is that they feel, well, mom's telling me what to do [01:01:55] 'cause this is what mom wants me to do. Um, something I always suggest, I, I do it to myself. So I, I often [01:02:00] try to say, I, I try the product out before I tell anyone else to think about something is I ask [01:02:05] myself a question, when are my kids bothering me?
[01:02:06] Ryan: They're annoying me about something that's just driving me insane. I was like, [01:02:10] do I really care about this? And what is it that I actually care about in this moment? If they're doing [01:02:15] something, making a mess, I'm like, what am I actually worried about right now? Maybe I'm worried about they're breaking [01:02:20] something expensive and fair enough, maybe I'll, you know, I'll raise my voice, I'll do what I do.
[01:02:23] Ryan: So often we're just [01:02:25] annoyed by something. And so I think it is a personal issue that we're having, that my [01:02:30] perspective happens often from our own childhoods and our own unresolved issues. And our kids have [01:02:35] this amazing talent to just like put their finger in and twist it in all of those sore spots. [01:02:40] But we actually, if we take that one moment, ask what am I actually upset about?
[01:02:43] Ryan: What am I actually worried about happening [01:02:45] right now? It often clarifies I'm not actually even worried about anything. The kids just kind of [01:02:50] annoy me. And that's again, just like having aggressive impulse. Your kids will annoy you. They are [01:02:55] frustrating. You have feelings of aggression towards your children.
[01:02:57] Ryan: It's something I have shocked me. [01:03:00] Um, when I was a parent, I, I couldn't, I couldn't wrap my head around people that abuse children. And I'm like, [01:03:05] how could you hit a child? And then I had a child and I had a child who lied to me for [01:03:10] two hours straight about something. I knew that he did, and I felt it. I [01:03:15] felt that impulse of just like, I, I don't think I've ever been so enraged in my entire life.
[01:03:19] Ryan: And [01:03:20] I was like, uh, okay. It was that moment. I was just like, oh, I get it now. [01:03:25] Again, it's just a feeling that I'm having. I'm not a monster. I have yet to hit my children. I don't plan on doing it, [01:03:30] but I allow myself to feel angry enough 'cause. They will do that to you. And I think parents [01:03:35] struggle with these feelings of aggression towards their own children.
[01:03:37] Ryan: And so often they're trying to like, well, if I stop him from doing [01:03:40] this, I will, I won't be angry at him anymore. And then, you know, the conflict cycle just happens over and over again. [01:03:45] So, and it's often, you know, so much of the focus. I, I really, I, again, I still know very [01:03:50] little about what you do, but what's something I, I admire very much that you're working with the parents.
[01:03:54] Ryan: So often in these [01:03:55] schools we work with just the kids and we may never meet the parents. And so much of [01:04:00] what's happening with a child is what's happening in the family unit. Um, I big shout out to [01:04:05] Jonathan Cogburn getting me on. I'm rereading all my systems theory stuff and it's kind of blowing my mind at the moment.
[01:04:09] Ryan: [01:04:10] But yeah, it's not just a child. They're not the fully formed individual. There's other people in [01:04:15] this unit that we need to address and so often it's a child goes into the office and the parents aren't [01:04:20] included. And that, I think that is just an area of weakness of mine that I'm trying to. Get better at it.
[01:04:24] Ryan: So [01:04:25] I really, you know, I admire it's, that's one of the hard parts about working with kids. You're not working with just one person. You're working with entire [01:04:30] family units. If you wanna do the work well,
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[01:05:05] Stephanie: Again, use code some therapist@lisamustard.com [01:05:10] slash pod courses. I'll include that link and coupon in the show notes for your convenience. [01:05:15] Alright, now back to the show. I think you've brought up some important points about [01:05:20] autonomy. And, uh, letting kids make their own [01:05:25] decisions and deal with those natural consequences of it.
[01:05:27] Stephanie: And I, I frequently find myself [01:05:30] telling parents that, especially between ages 13 and 18, there needs [01:05:35] to be a continual progressive ramping up [01:05:40] of the amount of freedom and responsibility that you give them. And you, you have to constantly recalibrate [01:05:45] because as an adult, you're not changing nearly as quickly as they are.
[01:05:48] Stephanie: So you, you have to keep [01:05:50] up. Where are they at this week? Is there something I was doing for them up until yesterday that [01:05:55] I should stop doing today? And, and there's so many [01:06:00] little shifts you can make in adolescence between telling them [01:06:05] what to do or otherwise imposing your will versus. [01:06:10] Treating things like their own decisions and as learning opportunities for them to [01:06:15] learn how to think through and problem solving and yeah, a fair amount of letting [01:06:20] them make mistakes.
[01:06:21] Stephanie: But if, if every parent who's caught up in the [01:06:25] moment of the struggle of parenting and adolescent could see from that 40,000 foot view, [01:06:30] they would be able to see that it's so worth the reward. [01:06:35] Letting them make that small mistake today is how they're gonna not [01:06:40] make a big mistake tomorrow.
[01:06:41] Ryan: My personal experience with this, what is the hardest is that [01:06:45] it's harder to do that.
[01:06:46] Ryan: It's actually the harder work to watch your child [01:06:50] struggle and make a mess and just sit there while you could just do it for them. [01:06:55] And the, the whole situation's over in five seconds if I do it for you. But it's a 20 [01:07:00] minute ordeal if I'm teaching you. And it is a genuine challenge because as you said, these are [01:07:05] not huge milestone development.
[01:07:07] Ryan: These are everyday things. Are we gonna, I'm gonna teach you [01:07:10] how to fold your laundry today. It's a whole skill. And we, I think we kind of take, we often forget as adults that [01:07:15] this is a, there's our whole process to like skill learning. And it's not easy and it's often not [01:07:20] fun, especially if a kid doesn't wanna do it.
[01:07:21] Ryan: So, you know, I always try to like, give parents like, Hey, this [01:07:25] is hard. Don't expect this to be easy. Um, but I agree with you. But you know, the [01:07:30] argument is, hey, it is so much better when they're independent, when they feel capable and [01:07:35] autonomous to do these things, then you don't have to do anything for them.
[01:07:37] Ryan: So it's like putting the work now and [01:07:40] give them, you know, don't do things for kids that they can do for themselves and probably for any adults who did, he'd buy that [01:07:45] and the general advice. But it's hard. It's really, really hard. And I always try [01:07:50] to bring back like the human element of. It's very painful to watch your child struggle.
[01:07:53] Ryan: And I'm sure I have so [01:07:55] much, so much sympathy for these parents that are going through some of the challenges that you talk about is that what do [01:08:00] you do as a parent when you see something like this and you just see your child suffering, you don't know why [01:08:05] and you have all these people giving you advice from every direction and they're not in your shoes [01:08:10] dealing with, you know, like the 1:00 AM breakdown that you're dealing with and like the day to day [01:08:15] where I get you're trying to avoid those things and you would do anything to do that.
[01:08:19] Ryan: Even if it's [01:08:20] not the greatest thing. Sometimes you will, you will try just about anything to [01:08:25] improve your child's life. And that's hard to admit that sometimes I'm hurting my child. It's something I think of a lot [01:08:30] about the harms of good things that good people do. So as parents we harm our kids as educators, we [01:08:35] harm people as therapists.
[01:08:36] Ryan: I harm my clients. I know that I do. It is something I'm acutely aware of [01:08:40] constantly. 'cause if you don't, you are gonna do more of it. Um, and being open to the idea of like, [01:08:45] ah, I screwed that up. Okay, I'm gonna do it different next time. And it's okay. Um, [01:08:50] we're, so to me, like saying I'm going to do something gives me permission to like, okay, I don't have to [01:08:55] hide it 'cause I already know I'm gonna do it.
[01:08:57] Ryan: So rather than hiding when this does happen and feeling the shame [01:09:00] of, oh my God, I can't believe I did this. Like, oh, here it is. Here's the thing that I knew was gonna happen. How do I [01:09:05] actually want to deal with this as a parent therapist, whatever, you know, whatever the role is that I'm playing.
[01:09:08] Stephanie: I'll just remind [01:09:10] anyone who needs this reminder that you want your kids to be competent and [01:09:15] competence doesn't develop overnight.
[01:09:16] Stephanie: And it's also not a matter of technically knowing how to do a [01:09:20] skill in the same way that, you know, one could recite the steps [01:09:25] or watch a video of someone else doing it and say, oh yeah, I could have done that. Right. The, the [01:09:30] skills that we genuinely have, we've practiced them hundreds if not thousands of times.
[01:09:33] Stephanie: Your kid might [01:09:35] technically know how to do something, but that doesn't mean that they genuinely have the competence and skill [01:09:40] that develops through repetition of doing it on their own and, and. [01:09:45] Learning along the way. And it's that genuine competence that [01:09:50] builds confidence, that builds identity. And, and if we [01:09:55] haven't sold it enough yet, the more genuine event and identity [01:10:00] your kid actually has, the less likely they are to build a fictitious alter [01:10:05] ego and hide behind that and use that as a grandiose [01:10:10] crutch.
[01:10:10] Ryan: I like this idea of competency and how do you build competence [01:10:15] competency in someone. It's not an easy task and it's to allow them to figure out, well, first competency in what, [01:10:20] what do, what do we want them to build the competency and give them the space to figure this out. And [01:10:25] as you said, breaking down like what does it actually mean to teach someone how to do something?
[01:10:29] Ryan: Um, and the [01:10:30] steps and the process to go do, and then breaking it down. And I think the other, the one other piece that I thought [01:10:35] was great of what you said is, I wanna take it actually, not just kids. I think this is adults. [01:10:40] We are highly motivated. Often, I always use dieting as an example, or losing weight, highly [01:10:45] motivated.
[01:10:45] Ryan: We even may know the exact, like you said, the skills and the list of things we need to do and we fail to [01:10:50] do it. There was like 96% of diets often fail. At some point we fail to do [01:10:55] this and recognizing, oh, what is, to me what that is, is that there's often a emotional or like [01:11:00] a, there's a thing going on beneath our rationality.
[01:11:03] Ryan: Um, and we have to understand [01:11:05] kids have not developed their emotional regulatory skills yet. They just haven't. They're younger [01:11:10] and so of course they're going to sometimes be able to perform a task and sometimes not. [01:11:15] Maybe the variability is higher than for us as adults. But I see plenty of adults who, [01:11:20] and myself included, some days I'm on fire and I can just do it all.
[01:11:23] Ryan: And there's some days I'm [01:11:25] practically worthless and I can't, and it's not 'cause I don't know how it is something [01:11:30] emotional, it's something inside of me that is just, I can't do it today. And to seeing that when our [01:11:35] kids, you always often see like, well, I saw you do it yesterday. It's like, well, yesterday was a different day and I was in a different state of mind [01:11:40] and we were maybe in a different relationship yesterday than we are today.
[01:11:43] Ryan: And all these little factors [01:11:45] rather than just, it's not like as you, I think you said it's so important. It's not just rote skills. Learning, there's [01:11:50] so much more to why do human beings do things than just they didn't know how. Um, thereafter we know how [01:11:55] to do, we know how we know what we're supposed to do.
[01:11:56] Ryan: Most of the time it's the challenge of doing the thing that's [01:12:00] scary or doing the thing that is frustrating and that we're not so great at yet. I hate being bad at things. So like learning new [01:12:05] skills. I hate that hump, that first month. You're getting into something and you're like, [01:12:10] I know I'm totally incompetent.
[01:12:11] Ryan: I don't know how to do any of this. It's not fun at all. But then you get it into like a [01:12:15] year of doing something like, oh, I see. And it's starting to get fun. And if you stick with something. It becomes [01:12:20] really fun when you master it and you become competent in doing it. But again, it's [01:12:25] just recognizing it is hard and you need encouragement and help and scaffolding for kids [01:12:30] to get them to that part where, okay, you can take it on your own.
[01:12:32] Ryan: Now, I think we're often too quick to be like, oh, [01:12:35] well I told you once. I'm just go do it rather than, no. A lot of this is challenging and [01:12:40] prepares to remember. If, even if it wasn't challenging for you, your kid's, only 50% of you, they're [01:12:45] 50% of another person. Um, and they're not you and they have a different life experiences and what [01:12:50] was easy for you may be a totally different challenge for them.
[01:12:54] Ryan: But it's, it's [01:12:55] all these factors are playing out constantly, but through, in that moment when things are just not going well [01:13:00] is very hard to remember this. Not just to yell at your kid and be like, do this, um, or lose your cool about something, [01:13:05]
[01:13:05] Stephanie: a sort of underlying subtext. I'm hearing with a lot of what you're saying [01:13:10] is a healthy sense of differentiation.
[01:13:11] Stephanie: I think when you have a sense of [01:13:15] differentiation, then all of these things become possible. And so listeners are going, what does she mean by [01:13:20] differentiation? We all know what it is to differentiate, but what, what is that? In a psychological sense? And this is [01:13:25] something that I talk about in my course, this is something that our mutual friend Jonathan Cogburn talks about.
[01:13:29] Stephanie: 'cause he also, [01:13:30] you know, operates from a family systems perspective. Um. I would say there's kind of [01:13:35] two main components to what I mean when I say differentiation. So, uh, there's, I [01:13:40] guess you could call it inner differentiation and outer differentiation. Inner meaning Can I differentiate [01:13:45] thoughts, feelings, and actions from one another?
[01:13:47] Stephanie: Like earlier you differentiated [01:13:50] feeling angry from throwing objects because you're [01:13:55] angry. Right? Uh, we don't have to be afraid of the emotion of anger [01:14:00] itself if we have a sense of differentiation that simply having an emotion does not [01:14:05] necessarily mean that a set of actions is soon to follow. So there's that level of differentiation.
[01:14:09] Stephanie: [01:14:10] And then there's also the interpersonal differentiation, recognizing our perspectives, um, [01:14:15] needs, experiences all vary from one person to the other. And being able to [01:14:20] coexist, being able to have a sense of self. And to, to remain [01:14:25] anchored in one's own experience while making room for others' experiences is a function of [01:14:30] sort of that aspect of psychological maturity.
[01:14:32] Stephanie: So if listeners are hearing, [01:14:35] you know, the things that you like about Ryan's perspective and you're like, what is it about this guy? He sounds [01:14:40] so healthy and emotionally mature. What, what is that? I think differentiation is part of what you're hearing. It's [01:14:45] part of what allows for all of these downstream things, right?
[01:14:48] Stephanie: And that same ability that you were [01:14:50] describing to kind of be with someone while they're making a decision, especially if it's a young person, that you [01:14:55] love to be with them in that decision making process without feeling the need to impose your will [01:15:00] to give them that differentiation from you so that [01:15:05] they can differentiate their own will and uh, they can make [01:15:10] choices where there's also a difference between, um, what they [01:15:15] might be feeling and what they might choose to do with those feelings.
[01:15:18] Stephanie: So the child's [01:15:20] differentiation. Is partly reliant on the adult having a healthy [01:15:25] sense of differentiation, which is one of the reasons that, you know, parents can benefit from doing things like [01:15:30] my program RGD repair or working with me, where again, like you said, Ryan, like I'm not even working [01:15:35] with the youth directly, but by doing your own inner work, you're modeling a way of being that gives other [01:15:40] people more room to mature as well.
[01:15:41] Ryan: This idea of differentiation, I, I will take all the [01:15:45] compliments that I seem like I'm differentiated. It's a journey and I would say I'm a different person than I [01:15:50] was five, maybe 10 years ago. I was totally undifferentiated other people's [01:15:55] feelings felt as if they were my own. My life was based upon how do I make sure that that [01:16:00] person's okay?
[01:16:00] Ryan: 'cause if they're okay, I am okay. And that was how my life operated, [01:16:05] um, since I was a child. And I'm not gonna go into the details of that, but that was my [01:16:10] existence and it is a. Existence full of resentment and anger is what I [01:16:15] can describe it as, is that I'm not living my own life. I don't know what my own life even is.
[01:16:19] Ryan: [01:16:20] Um, all I know is how do I get through to the next day and make sure that the person around me is okay? 'cause that's the [01:16:25] only way that I know that I can feel. Okay. And it is, you know, I, this is why I'm a big [01:16:30] advocate of psychotherapy is not only just 'cause what I wanna do it, I feel like it saved my life and continues to be a [01:16:35] part of my life to help me differentiate this thing that I'm just wired this way Now.
[01:16:39] Ryan: I, I, you know, [01:16:40] I, I always like to make sure everyone understands there's no finish line ever. We don't just [01:16:45] differentiate and then you're differentiated. It is an ongoing process because a relationship. [01:16:50] It's trying to undifferent you. It's trying to meld two people together. And so there's all these forces that are constantly pushing and pulling [01:16:55] at us that it is a journey.
[01:16:56] Ryan: And if people like what I'm saying, or think I'm differentiated [01:17:00] and maybe have some secret wisdom, great, but I'm not there yet. And part of what I'm doing, even right now [01:17:05] in today, is an example of me trying to do that is it's scary to do this. If I'm totally honest. [01:17:10] It would be safer not to do this. I've wanted to talk about all this stuff for a long time.
[01:17:14] Ryan: And I was [01:17:15] afraid because other people's feelings, I was like, oh, I don't want to induce that 'cause that will make me feel upset. [01:17:20] And I couldn't differentiate myself and what I thought was interesting or the ideas that I wanted to talk about from [01:17:25] what other people would feel about it. And it is, I, all I can say is that my personal journey has [01:17:30] been life so much more fun.
[01:17:31] Ryan: When you get to be yourself, you're not worried about everyone else constantly. You get to do [01:17:35] silly things. You get to make jokes that, yeah, they might upset someone, but you know, your friends are gonna laugh at it. And [01:17:40] that's great. I, I want to be able to have. The fun and the freedom that I have [01:17:45] learned and, you know, fought for in my life.
[01:17:47] Ryan: I wanna bring that to other people. 'cause I've been in those positions and [01:17:50] often in moments in my life still am. Um, so I always wanna make sure that, you know, sometimes people see [01:17:55] therapists and they're like, oh, they have it all good. We get idolized by, you know, by clients. They go like they have it all together.
[01:17:59] Ryan: We [01:18:00] don't, we are figuring out just like everyone, and it is a process. There's no finish [01:18:05] line. It is just an ongoing journey that you can increase your competency in, um, as kind of we've [01:18:10] talked about. You gotta put in the work to do that.
[01:18:12] Stephanie: I think that's a really positive note to end on. [01:18:15]
[01:18:15] Ryan: Sounds good. Well, I appreciate so much.
[01:18:17] Ryan: How are you having me on today?
[01:18:19] Stephanie: Ryan [01:18:20] Malice. Where can people find you?
[01:18:21] Ryan: Um, you can find me@ryanmalice.com is my [01:18:25] website just for psychotherapy training, supervision, consultation. You can find me on [01:18:30] Twitter at um, vir, at Virtual msw. Um, I like to make [01:18:35] jokes be silly and, um. Sometimes get angry about psychotherapy.[01:18:40]
[01:18:40] Stephanie: Thanks so much for, uh, coming on the podcast today. It's been a pleasure. You
[01:18:43] Ryan: are welcome. [01:18:45]
[01:18:45] Stephanie: Thank you for listening to you Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. [01:18:50] If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or [01:18:55] comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, [01:19:00] podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist.
[01:19:04] Stephanie: Special [01:19:05] thanks to Joey Rero for this awesome theme song, half Awake and to Pods [01:19:10] by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze [01:19:15] on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, [01:19:20] ROGD Repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show [01:19:25] plus how to get in touch with me can all be found in the notes and links below [01:19:30] Rain or shine.
[01:19:31] Stephanie: I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today [01:19:35] in the words of Max Airman. With all its sham, drudgery and [01:19:40] broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:19:45] [01:19:50] [01:19:55] [01:20:00] [01:20:05] [01:20:10] [01:20:15] world.