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The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is a transformative and supportive Podcast, dedicated to helping those who are, or have been, abused by narcissists to heal from the ravages of narcissistic abuse. Our show is a lifeline for those who are looking for next steps in their emotional and psychological healing, offering expert guidance and practical solutions for those who are in narcissistic relationships or are rebuilding their lives after narcissistic abuse. The hosts are Attorney Padideh Jafari and Jon McKenney who have helped hundreds of people in their narcissistic abuse recovery and know the journey personally in their own lives.
The onus, I think, is on them to figure out what the truth is. If they are interested in the truth, if they're not interested in the truth, then I have no interest with you in my
Voiceover:With preservation in our soul. We'll rescue those who've lost control. Escape the grip of a narcissist on our journey to recovery bliss. To the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel with John McKenney and Padideh Jafari.
Jon McKenney:Padida, it's good to see you. How have you been this week?
Padideh Jafari:I've been doing well. How are you?
Jon McKenney:Wonderful. I'm doing fantastic. You know what I've got coming up? A what? Cruise.
Jon McKenney:I can't wait. I'm a week out from vacation.
Padideh Jafari:Oh, that sounds great. I didn't tell you this, but next week, I'm also going away with my husband. He's taking me to Mexico. Really? What
Jon McKenney:part of Mexico are you going to?
Padideh Jafari:It's a little, little place called Carreus. Okay. A lot of people haven't heard about-
Jon McKenney:Haven't either. It's a
Padideh Jafari:little area. It's supposed to be great. We are meeting his friend from college, actually, that has a house out there and his wife is great. So I'm just ready to just have some rest and relaxation for five days.
Jon McKenney:Fantastic. I'm going for eight. It's a Caribbean cruise. Me and my my best buddy and his brothers started doing this annual guys trip for from my best buddy's fortieth. We did Vegas for a couple years, then we tried a cruise, And the cruise was so good.
Jon McKenney:We keep we keep going back. The only negative thing was I broke my ankle on one of the cruises. That was a bad thing.
Padideh Jafari:I remember that.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. That was terrible. And and the way I did it was even more embarrassing.
Padideh Jafari:Do you wanna share that with our audience?
Jon McKenney:No. Thank you for not asking. I really appreciate that. So, Padida, in narcissist circles, we talk about going no contact. And we wanna talk about no contact today and and why that can be difficult sometimes and why there's a need to go no contact with with a narcissist.
Jon McKenney:And let's start with the, mean, it's self explanatory, maybe it's not, but talk to me about what you think no contact is.
Padideh Jafari:So I thought the title of this episode was gonna be No Contact Means No Contact.
Jon McKenney:Well, it does, however, there are times where you have to contact, but we can talk So, about all of
Padideh Jafari:no contact really means, like, do not communicate with your narcissist ex, whether you're in a relationship with them, married to them, if they're your sibling, I don't care who they are. You have to go no contact, which means don't communicate with them. And also that includes social media. So, don't let them, just delete them, block their account and also block other people that are going to run and tell them things, right? This is also very important.
Padideh Jafari:And you really don't wanna have any communication with them because you know, once you break up with them, they get excited. Like they're like, okay, they see this as a challenge where most people would move on and try to heal. They're not like that. So they will take this as a challenge and try to lure you back in. And so it's really vitally important that you stop all communication with them and you don't want them to see your life, like how you are healing, how you're progressing your next relationship.
Padideh Jafari:It's just vitally important. I cannot stress this enough. I even tell clients like you can go and sign up for a parenting app. One of the ones that I recommend is talking parents and have limited communication about your child with them, but they do not need to know what is happening in your house. If you buy a car, if you are dating someone, sometimes, as a survivor, you wanna be like, look, I survived and I made it without you.
Padideh Jafari:No, you don't wanna do that because they're going to come back into your life and wreak havoc. And I've seen this time and time and time again. And so it's really important. I mean, it's sort of unfortunate, right? That you can't talk about your life and how well things are going, but you cannot do this with a narcissist.
Padideh Jafari:And if you have children with them, you have to be careful what you're disclosing to your child if you know your child's gonna go back to their parent, their their father, their mother, and tell that person. So you want to be very, very careful what you're sharing.
Jon McKenney:Well, know, interestingly enough, you're starting off with a very strong word here, and I think you're absolutely correct. Go yeah. It it is go no contact. Do that. At the same time, people have very hard time with that.
Jon McKenney:And and I I I honestly believe it's because people who are victims of narcissistic abuse genuinely loved loved or love their narcissist. Like, I I loved my my ex. I genuinely loved her. And I think there's a part of me that still loves her somewhere underneath it all. I don't wanna be with her, but but I I I do love her.
Jon McKenney:I'd be very sad if something happened to her. I wish her evil most days. But, you know, the piano, we joke, you know, the piano dropped out of the sky and fell on her. I'm not sure I'd be sad. I don't know about that some days.
Jon McKenney:But ultimately, people have a hard time with no contact because of love. I I remember one time, in fact, I shared on Instagram this past week in one of my posts how my ex told me one time that she was I'd said, you know, I said, I know I don't matter you. I really don't. I said, if if I died, you just go on like nothing happened. And she she looks at me like I've had this moment.
Jon McKenney:She goes, that's exactly right. If you died, I might grieve for a couple of weeks and then I just go on with life like you'd never been around. And I was, like, horrified. I'm like, this is this is my my my wife telling me that I don't matter to her at all, and that she could go on without any difficulty and without any grief in about a week and a half, two weeks time. In fact, she pretend I didn't exist, and guess what?
Jon McKenney:She had the ability to do that. And I communicated my horror to her. And she says, well, look. Don't worry about that. Don't worry.
Jon McKenney:I could do that with our kids too.
Padideh Jafari:Oh, my goodness.
Jon McKenney:And and I I just remember sitting there floored. I don't think I had anything to say. I go, I I can't believe you just said that. So it's very hard. It's very hard for people to who who have genuine love for somebody else to disconnect.
Jon McKenney:And it's oftentimes it is. And then then you have your own mental capacity being a problem too, like we talked about last time that it's it's going to contact is also for your mental health in this situation. You have to kind of get get away from them. But narcissists see you like my ex saw me. Yeah.
Jon McKenney:A couple of weeks and no big deal. You'd be gone. I'm I'm good. And and victims don't see victims oftentimes don't see narcissists that way. Know.
Jon McKenney:And you and I've been been besties for three years now. Is it that long?
Padideh Jafari:Yes.
Jon McKenney:And if you and we live on opposite coasts and when have the opportunity for dinner oftentimes and things like that and hang out, but we make sure that we text back and forth and talk and things like that and keep up with each other. If you if you stepped out of my life all of a sudden, I'd be hurt. I'd be crushed. That would that would really hurt me because I I genuinely love you as my sister and bestie. And I know you'd feel the same way, but narcissists do not feel that way about you.
Jon McKenney:So to to be to have no no contact forced on me by you if you were would did that to me, which you wouldn't, would be excruciatingly difficult. And to just for me to go initiate that and to say, I'm gonna go no contact with you would also be excruciatingly difficult because you are a part of my life and you're somebody I care deeply about. But narcissists don't feel that way. And if you're a victim, it winds up putting you in a situation oftentimes where you have genuine love for somebody and you really can't act on it in any kind of way. And that's a dilemma.
Jon McKenney:It just is. So going no contact, we say go no contact, right? But it's not easy to go do that oftentimes.
Padideh Jafari:I get that. I mean, listen, I understand that, but it's a life or death situation because if you don't go no contact and they are seeing your life, or if you're seeing their life because you know that narcissists portray that they have this perfect life. So with my ex husband, he was like dating this girl right away and he was telling me, Oh, she's so perfect, she lets me do this, so we went shopping, we did this and all this stuff that him and I used to do. And so it was very painful and it was like, Well, what am I gonna do here? Listen to this person gloat about his new relationship after I just had seven years with him.
Padideh Jafari:And so when I went no contact, I couldn't see his life either. So it wasn't just not allowing him to see my life, but I couldn't see his life, which by the way, he's had many multiple relationships and now he's remarried because he let me know he was remarried. This is the third one. And he wanted to have dinner with my husband and I and his wife once. And even though he was blocked, he will open up new personas on Instagram and say, hey, you know, wanna take you and my new wife out to dinner.
Padideh Jafari:I'll be in
Jon McKenney:Beverly Like there's any good to happen there. Right? Like, that's a good time.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. And it was funny because I actually told my husband and my husband, I said, Hey, would you just to see his reaction. And he was like, I would never sit across the table from that guy. I mean, I saw what he put you through. And even though he wasn't in my life at the time, he was like, you know, you've had so much trauma from this guy, why would I ever wanna break bread with him?
Padideh Jafari:So my point in all this is that really no contact could save your life. And also these people are very, narcissists are very jealous. They're jealous people. And so if they see that you're doing well or you bought a house or you have a new significant other or you're traveling or you bought a new car, they will come after you. And if you have children with them, they will alienate your child.
Padideh Jafari:I mean, this is like really serious stuff. This isn't just, okay, kick him off your social media. This is like, if they text you happy birthday, if they text you for Christmas or Thanksgiving, this is like no response whatsoever because they're blocked. You as a nice person will want to, you will want to say something, right? Because you're like, well, I don't want to be, maybe they've changed.
Padideh Jafari:I don't want not response. No, when they are blocked, you can't see their texts and you can't see their emails because they just want you to come back as their supply. And that's all you are to them. You are not a human being. You're not an individual.
Padideh Jafari:You are just supply for them.
Jon McKenney:And supply is just somebody they use
Padideh Jafari:Correct.
Jon McKenney:Ultimately. You know? They use to feel good about themselves or whatever. You know, it's it's interesting. You know, we we talked about we talked about no contact, but for me, there are two different levels of no contact.
Jon McKenney:First level of no contact for me was my ex. And for for me, the the no going no contact actually happened first in marriage. So the last two years of marriage where I was having conversations about the kinds of things she was doing to help her, and my therapist, I I think I've shared before, said, why are you doing this? Because it's not working. And I'm like, I really shouldn't do that.
Jon McKenney:So that started no contact for me. Utilitarian conversation, we call that gray rock, because I was still living with her in the house. That was the beginning of it for me. And prior to that, not doing that, I had a very hard time with it because of what we call trauma bonding. And I was bonded to her, and it was very hard to not have these conversations.
Jon McKenney:And then when my therapist said stop having them, it was difficult. Because, again, somebody I genuinely love, somebody I'm bonded to, whether healthily or unhealthily, that happened, and it made going no contact very difficult. Some people are still trauma bonded to their spouse even years after they've left them, which is kinda crazy, but it does happen. I think that And I've even talked to people in my coaching that, like a decade later, will weep over their narcissist ex because they're so trauma bonded to them. And it interrupts even future relationships or current relationships they have because they are so bonded to this person, they can't seem to get rid of I've known guys to go and divorce somebody and then go back to them after undoing all of that stuff.
Jon McKenney:Who wants to go do that twice? Why do they have a hard time with it? Trauma bonding, genuine love. Now, once you break the trauma bond, for me, in the process of divorcing, it's like, I don't want any of that again. There's no way in hell I'm going to get divorced twice.
Jon McKenney:That was such an excruciating process. I'll never go back to her. And I've told my besties, like you, if I ever go back to her, beat the crap out of me because I'm not ever going go do that. And it would be in my worst interest. I've already been down that road, I know where it's going to end.
Jon McKenney:I don't need to go back. So once you get beyond the trauma bond, and kind of stage one for me was no contact with the narcissists themselves, the one I found harder and continue to find harder is with what we call flying monkeys. Flying monkeys are the people who are on the narcissist team. And they can be anybody. They can be family.
Jon McKenney:They can be friends. They can be kids. They can be aunts. They can be uncles. They can be brothers.
Jon McKenney:They can be sisters. And in my situation, the people I am having to avoid and and having a harder time avoiding are those people and my parents. How do you how do you go no contact with your mom, like the person who birthed you into this world, the person who fed you when you were little? But I've had to do that because she's totally taken the side of my ex and doing kind of passive aggressively crazy things like trying to put us back together again and having arranging dinners for us to kind of meet over Christmas, which I don't want to do and have said no for. And they can they can kinda try to hoover you back into the relationship and suck you back in too.
Jon McKenney:So for me, the the no contact from the narcissist themselves was relatively easy. I divorced, and I just haven't looked back. I don't miss her. I don't want to miss her. I don't miss having her around the house.
Jon McKenney:I don't miss the nonsense. I don't miss the gaslighting. I don't miss the craziness that she gave me. And what I have in my own house now with two cats, it's just a lot of peace, which is fantastic. And there's nothing pieces become the priority, so no contact is easy from her.
Jon McKenney:The harder part is with people you birthed you, parents, sisters, kids, who've all taken her side as well because she was very quick to actually, she she'd been having conversations with these people long beforehand where I hadn't I hadn't talked to them about what's going on in the relationship. She did that way sooner and continues to do that. So they were they were fed a line and given a framework and a story that was untrue. And when I pulled the trigger on divorce, they're like, oh, there it is. Like, she was prepared.
Jon McKenney:She had them prepared for all this. There's no question about it. So so for me, it's been much harder to go and and avoid the flying monkeys and to go no contact with them. How do you how do you eliminate your kids from your life? That's the question.
Jon McKenney:Right? So I think there are two levels of going no contact for me, for narcissist themselves. And this is just my experience. Other people have trouble. Again, they're trauma bonded and they have trouble with the narcissist themselves.
Jon McKenney:But I've had a harder time going no contact with other people who are now on our team, who are family members and friends, being out of their lives completely.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. I know in your situation, because we are besties, you have limited contact with your family. And and then with your kids, you have limited contact, and you're very careful about what you're going to say. Like, for instance, with your daughter, and so sometimes, you know, you'll rehearse it with us with us friends. I do.
Padideh Jafari:This is what she wants. You just have to go limited contact. It's unfortunate because if they're gonna take the side of your abuser, then they're abusive themselves.
Jon McKenney:And not only that, but I'm very aware, my one daughter that's communicating with me, that when I'm talking to her, I'm talking to my ex and that whole team of people on her side of the equation that absolutely anything I say can and will be redefined and used against me no matter what. I don't ask about any of those other people. I'm like, I'm not gonna use my daughter to find out about those people who have wanted to go no contact with me. But not only is it no contact with in her particular situation, as Josh, it's not no contact, but it's limited conversation. There are some things I'm not willing to say.
Jon McKenney:I'm not going to talk about my life at all. Because if I tell her that I got a new car, somehow it'll get twisted back, How did you get a new car? Why is that money not going to us? Are not saving for a wedding for this? When they ask for money, why is this not mine?
Jon McKenney:Because my ex will redefine every last bit of it and I will be the enemy no matter what. That's ultimately their narrative that they give this whole team of people who have alienated me. That team of people are the harder ones. They've been the harder ones for me to go no contact with because I don't care. I mean, maybe there are people who can do this.
Jon McKenney:I can't. I will always love my children. I love them love them to death. And I wish we were in healthy relationship, but they're kind of not interested in that and have made that very clear. Also, I have to remove myself from the situation.
Jon McKenney:Have to kind of go no contact back with them. The contact I have with them, Happy Birthday, Merry Christmas, and that's kind of it. And that's about as far as I'm willing to go. My parents, I've had to completely eliminate contact with completely because of the nonsense they deliver and have continued to deliver over the years. And I've told them, I'm going no contact.
Jon McKenney:I'm not gonna be in touch with you. But those are the painful ones. Those are the hard ones, and it's not easy to go do.
Padideh Jafari:Right, it's not easy, but like you said, you have to protect your peace at all costs, And, that's the most important thing, John. And I would say that to our listeners, your peace, you have to protect it at all costs. And if that means going limited contact, then that's what that means. Because if they really truly love you, right, they're not going to side with your abuser. They're just not going to do that.
Padideh Jafari:They're going to have a conversation with you about what's going on and want to hear your side of it. And if they hear your side of it, they're going to not want to communicate with your abuser. So it's actually, you know, the onus I think is on them to figure out what the truth is. If they are interested in the truth, if they're not interested in the truth, then I have no interest with you in my life. And so I can miss you from a distance, but it doesn't mean I'm going to invite you into my life and share my intimate details with you about how my life is going.
Padideh Jafari:And that's just how I feel. But then again, this has been 15 for me and a lot of therapy, a lot of watching YouTube, a lot of healing, a lot of recovery and having a supportive husband that says, whoever is going to side with our abuser or with your abuser, that's on them, but they're not going to be a part of the new thing that we're building in our life, which is peaceful and harmonious, and is full of love and joy.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Well, you know, interestingly enough, I've I've kinda maybe this sounds morbid. Maybe maybe it's not. But I do think for people like I said, I got two levels. Like like my spouse to me was not so she was not I didn't really have a hard time going no contact.
Jon McKenney:In fact, it's frustrating to me when she contacts me. I I was like, I don't I don't wanna be in touch with her at all. And the the only conversation I will have with her is conversation about our children, which now that my my kids are grown and out of the house and off the payroll, that that doesn't really happen much now. So which is which is fine. That's kinda how I prefer it.
Jon McKenney:Like, stay the hell away. We don't need to talk. If I don't ever have a conversation with you again, there we go. That's perfect. But then this other group of people who, again, back to the person that birthed me, they've been much harder to go no contact with.
Jon McKenney:And for those people, to me, it's like a death. It's like grieving the loss of somebody, like the death of somebody, but they're still alive. I've literally had to kinda ask myself, you know, my parents are in their eighties now. In fact, I've said this to them. I'm like, is this how you want it to end?
Jon McKenney:You know? I'm texted. Is this how you want it to end with us, a strange like this? You know? You don't even wanna hear my side of the story?
Jon McKenney:And they're like, You know? So, Nah. Not really. So and that's and they they they would tell you they want relationship with me, but they want a relationship of pretending. They want to pretend the divorce didn't happen.
Jon McKenney:They want to pretend all these other things aren't going on, and they don't want to have honest conversation about it. And absent of honest conversation, I'm not going to be in relationship with them. And they also, again, they've they they want this pretentious environment I can't go live in. So I've had to say, look, we're we're just not going to be in touch. And and I've had to separate myself from them because they're they're hurting me by supporting her and in in every which way and and not with not me at all.
Jon McKenney:My mom has not picked up the phone a single time in five years to talk to me since the divorce. Not once. Not for anything. And I don't I don't understand that. Like, my head goes, I I can't wrap my head around that because I would love to call my kids right now if they wanted to be in touch with me.
Jon McKenney:They're not interested in being in touch with me right now because they've got my ex's narrative. One day, they'll figure it out. They'll figure out what happened, and hopefully, we'll be in touch. But but but for the people I I I love like that, it's like grieving a death. I've had to ask myself the question, you know, if my something happened to my parents, would I go to the funeral?
Jon McKenney:I don't I don't know. I feel like I've kinda had to grieve that that the loss of that relationship already. They're kinda dead to me now. And and and going through this with people you love, and, again, it's a quandary because you have separate yourself from people you love, and your natural reaction would be to go be in touch and be loving and kind and all that other stuff that you are. But you can't because they hurt you, so you have to remove yourself from the situation and go no contact.
Jon McKenney:It's very it it's like grieving a death and and a constant one, and it makes makes going going no contact, I think, excruciatingly difficult for for people in those situations with with folks they genuinely love, like parents who birth them and things like that.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, I'm very sympathetic to that. I understand. That was not my situation. Thankfully, my family had my back and they understood after I explained a lot of things to them. But initially, one of my brothers did sort of was protective of my ex husband because he just didn't know a lot of the abuse that was happening in our home.
Padideh Jafari:And so once he found out though, he was very quick to tell him like, I believe my sister, but it's gotta be hard. And my heart goes out to anyone, that's in this situation where their family member is actually, supporting their abuser. And, that has got to be so difficult. But even more so for you, you have to go no contact and no communication because you have to choose yourself. And if somebody is not choosing you, you have to choose yourself.
Padideh Jafari:I think me, until I chose myself above everything else, I was not going to heal. If I cared about what other people were going to say or who they were going to align themselves with, I never would have healed. I actually said, I'm going to choose myself even if it's just me. And that's where, for me, was went to therapy and did a lot of self reflection because my biggest thing was, John, I didn't want to I knew I wanted to someday get remarried. I just didn't trust myself and my own decision making.
Jon McKenney:I feel you, I feel you there.
Padideh Jafari:So it took me eight years before I met my husband, and even then we dated for three years before getting engaged. And so, you know, for me, I just looked very inward and I didn't care what anybody else said or who they were going to align themselves with. Now, with you, it's very different because you have these four children.
Jon McKenney:And my parents too, I love care about, and sisters also who are kind of on team dumb dumb. But ultimately, for me, those are the relationships that have been way harder. And maybe also it's some of the way I've handled it, and maybe it's a guy thing. Wanna go head to head. I wanna have the conversation.
Jon McKenney:I wanna duke it out. I wanna come to a conclusion and provide some closure. I approached my ex that way in the marriage. I didn't let this stuff There are some people who and I don't want to generalize because it's not just a man woman thing, I do think women tend to be more bullied by men in it, males who are narcissists, and they tend to be more not they don't wanna get in the face. They don't wanna they don't wanna go head to head.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Not a rule. It's not a rule. So I'm you know? But but and and the men tend to be more aggressive in a lot of things.
Jon McKenney:And I I was I was that way with my ex. I'm like, I wanna resolve this. Let's move to resolution. Let's have a conversation. Let's talk about what's going on.
Jon McKenney:And I was I was trying to bring us to resolution, but, you know, you it's it's like the the the therapist told me, head to head conversation does not work. It just doesn't. You can you can sit and she she literally said to me, she goes, okay, all those conversations you've been having. So so tell me which one of those which one of those provided or yielded yielded fruit, yielded a good result? I sat back.
Jon McKenney:I'm like I'm thinking back on twenty five years of marriage. I'm like, none. But head to head doesn't doesn't work with narcissists. Like, have you have no other choice. So so you get to this place, and I'm sure you have this with clients too, where where head to head just doesn't work.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. Actually, as you were talking, I was just thinking about a client who said yesterday, well, do you think I should talk to him about? And I'm like, you can't resolve anything with your ex. I mean, your soon to be ex, you know that already. If you would have, you wouldn't be in this divorce two years, you can't get divorced from him because there's no talking to him.
Padideh Jafari:And so, least let me guide you through the legal process and do it the most efficient way, but through the legal process, but you keep your no contact because you don't wanna break that. And she said, Oh yeah, sometimes I forget. She's like, I think because what I'm asking for is so rational, I think, oh, let me just see if I could, I'm like, No. And so I had to remind her. But you're absolutely right.
Padideh Jafari:Sometimes, you know, you forget and you're like, Well, let me if I go head to head I mean, one thing you said was absolutely true for me. I mean, my narcissist ex was definitely my bully. I mean, he was just, and you didn't want to argue with him. You just wanted to go along with it because otherwise he was just gonna make a big fight or big stink about it. And who wants that?
Padideh Jafari:You don't want dissension in your own house. So I went along with a lot of things. With my husband now, I mean, we discuss everything. We discuss even how much money to give our son for one of their birthdays. My oldest son is now 27, my stepson.
Padideh Jafari:And so we talked about like, how much money do we give him for his gift? And so, it's like, we discuss everything and we can come to some meeting of the minds. It's not like that with a narcissist. There's no meeting of the minds. It's just what they want under their terms whenever they're ready.
Padideh Jafari:And you just have to co sign and you will co sign a lot of things that you don't and you normally wouldn't cosign. And so, it's really difficult. Life with them is very, very difficult.
Jon McKenney:And the natural tendency for people, I think, is to want to have a conversation to go head to head. Right? But it only works with normal people. Yes. It does not work with narcissists.
Jon McKenney:You can't have a conversation, come up with a conclusion, and then have a win on the other side.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. You're absolutely right. Just things that you and I discussed too. Like, things that, know, we kind of go back and forth on some things. Right?
Padideh Jafari:We're doing this podcast. It's like, well, what do you think about this? Or what do you think? And just reason together. Know?
Padideh Jafari:Just talk.
Jon McKenney:Absolutely.
Padideh Jafari:Cannot do that with a narcissist.
Jon McKenney:Absolutely. I'll tell you what, even if you do come up with a conclusion, and I can't tell you the number of conclusions my narcissist ex and I came up with, that the next day she did the exact opposite of what she said she was going to go do. So the conclusions aren't even valuable, unfortunately. So none of the conversation and I can literally say none of the conversation in twenty seven years of marriage was of really any value whatsoever in healing the relationship. So if conversation doesn't work and conversation only works with emotionally healthy or emotionally mature or moral people who aren't gonna deceive you and gaslight you and pretend things don't happen with toxic amnesia, if you can't have the conversation, then just stop.
Jon McKenney:And that's ultimately what you have to do in order to protect your own mental health and to to move on in life. And yes, it can be hard. Again, it's it's a challenge for me to this day to not want to wish somebody happy birthday or not to call or whatever it might be. Somebody I care about, my kids being involved in my lives, whatever. It's very hard not to go be a part of that, but on the whole, I just do it.
Jon McKenney:Because ultimately, I can't live in that other world of constant nonsense, constant pretending, constant deception, or team dumb dumb. I'm I'm just not gonna go do it. It it it's really, really difficult to to do. And I see you're laughing when I said that.
Padideh Jafari:You said that twice.
Jon McKenney:And both twice. Lina She held it the first time. But
Padideh Jafari:And both Lina and I, because I'm in the OS media studio today, both her and I are cracking up every time you call her dumb dumb. It's just
Jon McKenney:I don't call her by her real name ever.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. It's it's hilarious.
Jon McKenney:It is. But but you have you have to do it. You have to do it for your own health. You have to do it for your own sanity. And are there other things that can make it a challenge?
Jon McKenney:The kids can make it a challenge and Padilla had had some suggestions there. There's an app that you can communicate with and all that stuff's recorded. Yeah, the only communicate I do not ever. I do not ever answer calls from my my narcissist ex. She can text me.
Jon McKenney:I want I want whatever she says in print because I'm gonna have to go back to it at some point in time because she's she's gonna undo whatever she said on the phone in some other capacity. I know her. So again, any conversation only about the kids and again, in print without question, and these apps can really help you do that. But you want to keep it utilitarian. No emotional engaged conversation if you have to go do it for parenting.
Jon McKenney:The other part of it is this. Not only can parenting make it a challenge, but the narcissists themselves will make it a challenge because they will continue, like Pantita said, to try and hoover you in. Hoover came from the vacuum cleaner. That term came from the vacuum cleaner because they try to suck you back in. Like vacuums suck up dirt.
Jon McKenney:And they're trying to suck you back into relationships so they can use you. We've talked about how our narcissist exes have tried to go do that with us in past podcasts, so we won't go through that again here today. But that can make it a challenge too. And guess what? They might even pretend to be your friend.
Jon McKenney:They might even pretend to be nice. But again, they're looking to hook you. They're looking to get you back into relationships so that you can be used and so that you will do these things for them, but they do not care about you. So it's just best to stay away, even if they challenge it, even if parenting makes it hard, it's just best to stay away, not have any conversation whatsoever.
Padideh Jafari:Right. And listen, I'm all for co parenting parent on the other side.
Jon McKenney:100%.
Padideh Jafari:I love co parenting. I think that that is a wonderful thing and is so helpful for your child. We're talking about with narcissist or other cluster B personality disorders, that's where you need to get on an app. TalkingParents is a good one and document, document, document. And so I will tell you the truth.
Padideh Jafari:I mean, went no contact with my husband's ex wife when we got, like the week before we got married, because she was sending just these outlandish emails attacking me, which is crazy because I had only spoken to her once in a couple years, like three years, I'd only spoken to her once. So she was really trying to throw me under the bus and tell our oldest son, Can you believe your dad's getting remarried? And he actually said, Yes, I think dad's happy. She hung up the phone on him a week So we got we just went no contact and I re blocked her on all email and calls and also all social media. And it's been great.
Padideh Jafari:I mean, We actually opened up a post office box, believe it or not, close to our home and we gave her that. And we said, my husband wrote her a letter and said, If you need to contact me, here's the information. And our boys are old enough that if something happens, they can communicate directly to me. And for a while she was writing us letters, which is crazy because she had to like lick a stamp to, you know, to get to us. And then it would be like, literally, John, like, three, four, five pages long, these these letters.
Padideh Jafari:And at sometimes my husband was like, don't even read it because it's just nonsense. And so, you know, everything that John and I are saying on this show, we've actually had to implement ourselves. Absolutely. It's been great going no contact. Our son last year graduated college, so we saw her, and amicable.
Padideh Jafari:Our youngest son is graduating in May. We're gonna have to see her. That's fine. But knowing that once we leave, we won't have to hear from her is just such a blessing.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. And, you know, there's there's also kind of a proactive side to to no contact. You know, like like I said earlier, I thought, okay. Well, something happens to my parents. Do I go to a funeral?
Jon McKenney:It's good to think about that ahead of time. It it at least for me, it has been. I I I've had to think about about how far no contact stretches. So my my family, again, team dumb dumb. So they're they're all in, quite honestly, my my ex and she's laughing again.
Jon McKenney:My my ex has won my whole old my whole family of origin with her narrative, and there are weddings I've missed because I'm not I'm not gonna sit back at my my nieces and nephews weddings and watch her involve be involved with the whole family while I sit by myself. I'm I'm I'm not I'm not gonna put myself in that situation. So I've had some of these no contact situations are tough. Like, okay, I really wanna be at that, but I can't go because I know she's gonna be there, and I'm not gonna put myself through that. Not gonna put myself through my parents loving on her and her being happy life of the party.
Jon McKenney:She's not gonna miss me anyways and didn't. And she's won everybody I cared about biologically in the room. Like, I'm gonna like, I'm gonna go do that? No. So no contact also has had to mean thinking about these kinds of things.
Jon McKenney:And I told my sister, the only one contact my youngest sister has had with me, and I I texted her and said, just thank you. I appreciate your inviting me to the wedding, but I just want you to know I'm not gonna be there. And here's why. And it's, you know, family supported her. So so I'm I'm not gonna put myself in a position of hurt like that when it again, tough things.
Jon McKenney:You know? What happens when my what happens when my my kids get married? One of my kids says, hey, by the way, I'm getting married. One of the ones say who who I'm no contact with and quite honestly, they're no contact with me too. I'm sure they're gonna be in touch because my ex is gonna say, Look, I'm sure your dad has money for you.
Jon McKenney:Which is gonna be a no. That's not going to happen. I give money to people I'm in relationship with. But I have had to think these things through ahead of time. I've decided if my kids, if my relationship with my kids is in its, most of them, is in its current state, where they're not interested in even hearing about what took place and not caring about me in the slightest and not wanting to be in touch, guess what?
Jon McKenney:I'm not going to that wedding. I'm not going to be present for that. That's where no contact gets really hard and really messy sometimes. And I'm not saying that that's what you should do if you're in the same situation. You have to go make these decisions for yourself.
Jon McKenney:But there's a proactive side to this that it's good to think about these things, about the situations you might be put in in the days ahead where your no contact is going to be tested. I've had to think those things through because they're coming, and I have to be prepared, and I don't want to be caught off guard if I'm gonna continue to honor that, honor myself, and honor the truth in my own life. So so so make sure not only that you're you're you're going no contact, you're deleting social media with these people and unfriending them or whatever you need to go do to get them off your Instagram account, but think ahead. Prepare for some of the things that might be coming. If you got a kid that's gonna get married, you have to you have to ask, Do I want to be at the wedding?
Jon McKenney:Does my kid have relationship with me enough to be at the wedding? Would they want me at the wedding? And these are the kinds of things I'm already thinking through because no contact has been so important, and I want to do the right thing for myself.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. All great points. Wow. Just hearing you talk about this is just so painful as your friend, you know, because I know you're a great man. I know that you are a God fearing man.
Padideh Jafari:I know that you love your kids your And so it's just so hard to actually listen to you talk about this, you know, they've made their you have to make your decision, and you have to choose yourself and your peace and your sanity. Yep. And so that's what's important.
Jon McKenney:And the reason I talk about these things is not therapy for me. These are just, you know, I've had to go through this stuff. And guess what? Badita, there are other people out there who are in worse situations than me. Other people out there who are having to go navigate the same kinds of things.
Jon McKenney:Their narcissist ex has alienated their kids from them and they have to decide, am I going to this wedding? Or they've alienated their parents. Am I going to this funeral? How do I be in touch? Should I be in touch?
Jon McKenney:Should I say happy birthday? Should I send a Christmas present? Do I send a Christmas card or not? Do I do this? Do I do that?
Jon McKenney:This is where no contact meets the road, the rubber on the road. It's not easy to go do this. And these are things that require thought and your attention in order to go do the right thing for yourself and for the situation. So we talk about these things because we want you to know we've had to go through them and we're having to live them. Fadita's making decisions now about what it's gonna be like for her youngest son when she has to see husband's narcissist ex next year.
Jon McKenney:No, this This year, I'm sorry. You said May. May. That's right. This May.
Jon McKenney:Yeah, that's coming. You could see the video and see the pain on her face when she talked about that, it was rather comical. She's like, that's not gonna be Maybe she'll ask you yet for another $52,000 for this one.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. Well, I was gonna tell this story last year when we went to the graduation of our middle son, it went fine. It went really, really fine to the point where my husband and I, we were like, wow, maybe we're making some progress. And she was happy and she was laughing and we had lunch, all of us together, and she was laughing at my husband's jokes and then the boys were talking and it felt like, wow, this great because we've never done that with her in seven years. And then- And
Jon McKenney:then you got home.
Padideh Jafari:No, and then were in the And then the day later, we were at the airport and I see my husband kind of looking at something and he seems a little frantic and I'm thinking to myself, what's going on? He's like, nothing. And so I said, are you sure? And he's like, nothing. And so the next morning, we're now back in California.
Padideh Jafari:And he said, I have to tell you something. And my husband can't hold anything in. And it was in the morning. I'm like, okay, well, me get some coffee first. He's like, you're gonna wanna sit down for this.
Padideh Jafari:He said,
Jon McKenney:I said, we're good.
Padideh Jafari:And I said, what happened? And he said, she sent a letter through our son, our youngest son, an email that I owe her $52,000 I said, on what, like, on what? Like, was there any receipts? Like, what is she talking about? There's no receipts, just that we had a really good time, but you owe me $52,000 but didn't
Jon McKenney:We had a say good time. Just cough it up. Cough up the cash.
Padideh Jafari:I just said to myself, I said, Okay. I kind of called his lawyer who's in New York and I said, Lisa, this happened. And she's like, Well, if her lawyer contacts me, I'll let you know, but you know what to do, just file it in some drawer. But for a couple of days I was really like a little bit uneasy and I'm thinking to myself, like, did we miss something? Like, what is this about?
Padideh Jafari:And I know I called you about it, but this stuff can affect people. And I think what happened is she saw that we were happy. She saw that, he's moved on and he's healthy and the kids are all around us and happy. First she went back home maybe, or she thought to herself like, I gotta roll these two up. They're too happy.
Padideh Jafari:They're too peaceful. And so that's sort of my thought about it, but never heard anything else from her about that. So I know May is coming up. So I'm telling my husband, like I'm sort of dreading. I'm excited for my, you know, for our son, but I'm dreading singer.
Padideh Jafari:He's like, I don't blame you. I'm also dreading it because, you know, last time we thought, you know, we were optimistic and so happy. And so, you know, it's kind of nice that we can go through this a little bit together, but it's not fun.
Jon McKenney:You know? But that's the proactive nature of exactly what I just said a minute ago, right? You're thinking because your experience was so bad before and you got this ridiculous bill for $52,000 like most people don't have $52 lying around to just write a check for anyways. So like she would go she would go do that and you you are no contact with her. And then you're in a situation where you have to be at least in contact with her for a day because you want to go.
Jon McKenney:You've decided we're going to our son's graduation. He's graduating in May. That's important to us. So I'm gonna have to violate no contact and go do that. And you're thinking about the kinds of things of proactive nature.
Jon McKenney:How am I gonna go handle this? And it might be when you get there, you go, Don't bother sending us a bill, just so you know. You might have to do that. You have to think about how you If you're gonna break no contact or if you're not, you have to think about these situations upfront and what you're gonna do, what you're gonna go do, because anything can happen. If this bill might be 105, you just don't know.
Jon McKenney:So you have to be prepared. You to prepare yourself for that kind of stuff as much as you can possibly prepare yourself for it, but you're thinking about that now, and that's a healthy and right thing to do, I think.
Padideh Jafari:Right. And as much as I would want her to tell her that, what you just said, no contact means like really not talking to her. So, would never say that to her because that's just validating like the email, right? Right. We just ignore, ignore, ignore, which is so difficult, John.
Padideh Jafari:And even when I tell my clients that they're like, Oh my gosh, can I respond? I'm like, No, do not respond. You're just inviting more dialogue. And they think that they've won because they're like, Oh my gosh, look, now they're talking now. Oh, now they're unblocking their email because they want to respond.
Padideh Jafari:No, because even if we responded, it would go to our youngest son who she sent this email through. So you've got to always protect your children if at all possible in these situations. And so just the fact that our son is graduating from college, I mean, that is a blessing and we need to just focus on that. But I'm not telling you that this is easy, but I'm telling you that you can do it because I've done it and John has done it. And so there's two people that have walked this road and it is a very difficult road to walk.
Padideh Jafari:But once your kids graduate, then you really just have to see them in case of an emergency or marriage or something like that. But it becomes a little bit easier obviously as your kids grow up. Absolutely. Understand that we get that it's hard to go no contact or limited contact, but you have to do it if you want to survive these narcissists.
Jon McKenney:And and again, like like you said here, there's again, the head to head conversation doesn't work. Like normal conversation does not work. My I gave you a response. Said, okay, tell her upfront, you know, Don't don't send me a bill this time. Right?
Jon McKenney:That would be normal conversation. You're right. It won't work. It won't work. The only thing you can do is ignore.
Jon McKenney:And and that takes away their power in the relationship, their perceived power over you, and and and keeps them away. No con no contact means conversation. No conversation means there's nothing else to discuss, and it keeps them out of your lives. It's been a good conversation today, I gotta tell you that. Glad you and I aren't no contact.
Jon McKenney:No, No. We're not.
Padideh Jafari:No. You know, again, we're friends, we're besties, we can have I don't think we've ever had a disagreement, but we can have conversation sort of understand where the person's coming from, and you don't get that with a narcissist. So
Jon McKenney:That must mean we're normal. Or I hope. Well, been good conversation today, and excited to to post this. By the way, you can find us on just about any podcasting platform, Amazon, Spotify, Apple Music. I think Apple Music's the big one probably, but we're increasing on Spotify as well.
Jon McKenney:We're gonna continue to do these kinds of things for you. We're in the middle of season five, and I'm looking forward to more conversation in the days ahead. Padita, it's been great hanging out with you today.
Padideh Jafari:Thank you. It's been awesome. I'm hoping that this really helps our listeners this episode.
Jon McKenney:Hope so too. Special thanks to our producer, Lina, over at Ola Studios. They helped us get our start in podcasting. We are eternally grateful for them. I think their Olus studio is olusmedia.com if you need somebody to go help you with podcasting out there in California.
Jon McKenney:They're fantastic people. They got a great studio and wonderful to work with. So Lena's always done our producing and she's just amazing. Not just an amazing producer, but an amazing human being. We just adore her.
Jon McKenney:So thank you, Lena, again, and we'll see you next time, Padilla, for sure.
Padideh Jafari:Okay. See you next time.
Jon McKenney:And keep your lives narcissist free.
Voiceover:Thank you for listening to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. To hear other episodes or read the associated blogs, visit www.narcissistabuserecoverychannel.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram with the handle narc. Podcast. The guest views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are their own.
Voiceover:The information presented is for general informational purposes only and is not intended to be legal advice. The co hosts are not licensed therapists. Seek professional help as information is often state specific. The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is produced in studios in California and Georgia.