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Join Kosta and his guest: Justin Veals, Director for the Men’s Program for Independence Again, Co-Founder of The Recovery Kitchen, Certified Peer Recovery Specialist, Long-Term Recovering Heroin Addict with over 5 years sober from all substance abuse. Today’s episode will be touching on many subjects and issues that will be difficult to fully grasp for most of our audience. While many of us may know someone that has struggled with addiction or even homelessness, it’s hard for the everyday per...
Join Kosta and his guest: Justin Veals, Director for the Men’s Program for Independence Again, Co-Founder of The Recovery Kitchen, Certified Peer Recovery Specialist, Long-Term Recovering Heroin Addict with over 5 years sober from all substance abuse.
Today’s episode will be touching on many subjects and issues that will be difficult to fully grasp for most of our audience. While many of us may know someone that has struggled with addiction or even homelessness, it’s hard for the everyday person to totally understand the revolving door that exists when you’re trying to restart your life.
Find out more about The Recovery Kitchen:
https://recovery-kitchen.square.site/
Find out more about Independence Again:
https://independenceagain.org/
Better Together with Kosta Yepifantsev is a product of Morgan Franklin Media and recorded in Cookeville, TN.
This episode of Better Together with Kosta Yepifantsev is made possible by our partners at Loxx Salon and Spa.
Find out more about Loxx Salon and Spa:
https://loxxsalon.net/
Better Together with Kosta Yepifantsev is a podcast about business, parenting and living life intentionally. We're here every week to bring you intentional conversations on making your own path to success, challenging the status quo, and finding all the ways we're better. Recorded in Cookeville, TN, Kosta joins guests from all walks of life to bring fresh perspective and start your week with purpose. We're better together.
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Today’s episode is presented by
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that keeps me looking and
feeling my best, Loxx Salon and
Spa. With comprehensive hair,
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Justin Veals: One of the
meanings is I am because we are
my humanity itself is like
clarified and sanctified and
defined by other people, not me.
My community is how what
reflects my humanity back. And
that's something that we used to
write letters when I was
incarcerated back and forth. Not
always put it in the letter. I
am because we are
Morgan Franklin: Welcome to
Better Together with Kosta
Yepifantsev, a podcast on
parenting business and living
life intentionally. We're here
every week to bring you
thoughtful conversation, making
your own path to success,
challenging the status quo, and
finding all the ways we're
better together. Here's your
host, Kosta Yepifantsev.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Hey y'all,
it's Kosta. Today I'm here with
my guest, Justin Veals. Director
for the Men's Program for
independence. Again, co-founder
of the recovery kitchen,
certified peer recovery
specialist, long term recovering
heroin addict with over five
years sobriety from all
substance abuse. Today's
episode, we'll be touching on
many subjects and issues that
will be difficult to fully grasp
for most of our audience. While
many of us may know someone that
has experiences with addiction,
or even homelessness, it's hard
for the everyday person to
totally understand the revolving
door that exists when you're
trying to restart your life.
Justin, thank you for all you've
done for our community and the
selflessness you show every day.
What brought you to the Upper
Cumberland?
Justin Veals: Thank you for
having me on. That's a that's a
big question. How far back do I
start? But you know, six years
ago, I was living a very
different life, a very difficult
life. Some of it my own doing,
you know, a lot of it my own
doing but you know, I was I was
addicted to heroin. And meth
didn't have a permanent address
bouncing around, running dope to
make money. And on April 13, of
2018, I got arrested. Okay.
wasn't the first time hopefully
it'll be the last but it wasn't
the first time. But we were
setting it to McDonald's on
Cedar Bluff and somebody called
the cops on someone else. And I
just happened to be sitting
there. When they pulled up, I
knew I couldn't get away. I knew
there was no changing what was
about to happen. And so my goal
at that point became to make
sure that I went to jail and
Melissa didn't which she were
married now we were just
together then. And that worked
out. But I was, uh, was arrested
with a large amount of
methamphetamine, you know, and
other drug paraphernalia and
things like that. In which Knox
County. That's where my life
began to change. The first seven
days. All I did was sleep.
Right. I had been eating I had
been awake for probably 14 or 15
days. And I weighed like, 150
pounds when I came in cheese.
Yeah. So I just slept, you know,
they they put food into the
piehole. And I'd eat and go back
to sleep. Were you detoxing?
Yes, yes. What was that, like?
Dope sickness is one of the
lowest forms of human existence
that I've experienced. It is
like the worst flu. You can
imagine basically, plus or other
symptoms that nobody talks
about, you know, you have to
live with dreams. And I'm coming
off heroin. Yeah. Because heroin
like, you know, the movie,
Trainspotting, touched on this
where I just remember I was in
classification, which is, you
know, that's where you end up,
when you first get into jail or
prison, you know, and they sort
of try to sort you out by your
security level. And I was
sitting in there, it was really
loud. There was like a den of
noise. You could hear people
playing cards and that kind of
thing. And I just remember,
like, the weight of like, 37
years of bad decisions just hit
me in the back of the head, you
know, and I'd never really had
these thoughts before I'd wanted
to quit. I'd wanted to change my
life, but I just didn't have the
mechanisms of change that I
didn't know how to do that. I
said Knox County for eight
months trying to get a deal for
treatment and probation. Right
because that's what I wanted.
Yeah. The DEA was not super
interested in it. She was trying
to give me 12 years 85%
Kosta Yepifantsev: Why I mean,
why would they want to put you
in jail instead of if you're
especially if you're asking for
help and asking for treatment?
Why wouldn't they?
Justin Veals: Just like what
cops you know process theaters
you have decent and not so
decent prosecutors, there are
some zealots that get into that
position and they see their job
as religious packing the jails
and prisons full of people who
are making mistakes. Sure. And I
had one of those days. Does that
happen? Often? I'm sure that it
happens enough. In places like
Knox County where I'm from,
there's a rotation of DBAs
involved in criminal cases, you
know what I mean? So you may get
a good one, you may get a bad
one out here. What is what are
your options? You know, like,
when you're in a rural county,
there's only maybe one or two
judges, there's only maybe one
da, the, you know, there's only
like two public defenders for
what, like 13 counties or
something. But yeah,
Kosta Yepifantsev: what happens
when you hear people say, you
know, it's a good thing, if you
go to jail if you're addicted to
something, because you obviously
don't have access to it. And you
know, your typical relationships
that you have in the community
no longer exists because you're
incarcerated. Help us
understand, is that argument
valid, or you need to get
treatment, you don't need to be
incarcerated. Alright, so
Justin Veals: viewing
incarceration, as some sort of
answer to addiction issues, is
looking at, it's like you're
treating a symptom, you're not
treating the cause, right?
Because Because drug use itself
is a symptom, substance use,
and, and all the things that go
with it are symptoms of
something else going on. So you
know, you can incarcerate
somebody, and you can take them
out of their environment, right?
Which can can, over short
periods of time, lead them to
separation from some of their
unhealthy decisions, but it's
not going to fix anything.
Right? If they're not getting
treatment for the root causes of
what's going on, then they're
going to reoffend and they're
going to relapse. And we're
going to be in this revolving
door, which is what exists in
the criminal justice system.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Could you
talk a little bit about the root
causes that caused you to use
for as long as you did?
Justin Veals: Yeah. You know, I
also teach one day at the CIT
training for Kupo. PD, you know
what I talked about there?
There's this thing called the
ACES quiz, right? That was
developed by psychologists. And
it's a 10 question quiz. And
aces stands for adverse
childhood experiences. You go
through these 10 questions, you
score somebody out, and this is
all stuff that happened prior to
your 18th birthday. Anyone who
scores for higher, has a greater
chance of being incarcerated,
having heart disease, having
substance use, and continuing
the cycles of trauma, right? I
go through the quiz, when I do
these trainings, and give my
answers, because I score a nine
out of 10. Wow. And the
questions are like about, you
know, abuse, sexual abuse, food
insecurity, like, you know, all
these things, you know, that
would kill your your enjoyment
of your childhood, you know,
your security. So the only one
that I don't have is like, you
know, no one was ever arrested
out of the house when I was
growing up. But other than that,
everything was there. You know,
there was abuse of all kinds,
there was substance use, you
know, we were hungry, sometimes.
My mom also experiences, issues
with, you know, anxiety and
mental illness things. And, you
know, in that that would that
affect your ability to be the
type of mother at least, the
younger version of myself
thought she shouldn't be? Yeah,
it's not an indicator of
outcome, the ACES quiz, but it
is an indicator of risk. And so
like the National Health Care
for the Homeless Council, so
they released a report last
year, and in it, they talked
about the children's they serve
in New York, that are
experiencing homelessness,
right. And they said that every
child that they served, every
child they served had at least
four adverse childhood
experiences. By the time they
were 18 months old. It's crazy.
And you know, and so that's in
New York, you know, so I'm sure
their numbers are worse than
they are around here. But we're
still talking about the same
things. So when you see someone
who's living on the streets, and
you know, going through that
whole experience, like, there's
this complex narrative of pain
that you don't understand, that
you don't see, all you see is
the guy that's maybe drunk or
high and he doesn't smell so
great. And he's acting, you
know, kind of crazy at the gas
station, or whatever it is, he's
asking you for money, or he's
this or that, you know, you see
that outward appearance, and to
someone who grew up in a
productive family household with
love, compassion, understanding,
and, you know, sobriety and
financial security and all that
kind of stuff. They see that and
they just don't understand.
Because their perspective is
from their experience, you know,
well, that man's perspective and
that woman's perspective is from
their experience, and their
experience was very different
than yours. Not that those
people aren't responsible for
changing their lives because
they are, no one can do it but
them right they need help, but
they do have to take ownership.
Make some changes, but they
don't know how. And that's why
it takes like very dedicated
people working in the field
working with these men and women
to actually change. And, you
know, when I was sitting in
jail, I didn't know what to do.
All I knew was is that I didn't
want to go back out and keep
doing the same thing. Why,
though,
Kosta Yepifantsev: like you when
you do it for so long, and I'm
trying to understand and hope
our audience understands, when
you do it for so long. When do
you finally hit that wall? And
you're like, I can't, even if
you maybe your brain is saying
you have to and maybe everybody
around you is saying you have to
but finally you say, I just
can't do
Justin Veals: this. Yeah. For
me, it was the absolute abject
despair that I found myself
living in. I just, I couldn't
face it another day. And, you
know, there slowly became a
realization that life had been
hard. There were things that
happened to me that weren't
fair. But I'm making it worse,
by choosing to cope, you know,
with my despair, with with
substances in criminal activity
and just trying to have fun. You
don't know what I mean? I
definitely identify as a heroin
addict. No, I've done but every
substance that existed at some
point in my life, but I identify
as a heroin addict, because
that's really the one that
filled this certain hole that I
that I needed filled. You know,
heroin was like, to me, like, a
warm hug from God letting me
know that everything was
alright. And I can't explain the
spiritual aspect of being heroin
addicts, people who don't
understand not having that in
your life, you know, like, it
represented love, security,
compassion, everything. To me,
it was the only coping skill
that I developed in my life,
because I didn't have access to
counseling. I didn't have access
to healthy adults. You know what
I mean? It was just me and a
bunch of other latchkey kids
from the 90s, trying to figure
out how to live.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Yeah, we're
going to talk a little bit about
your time in Knoxville and also
some of the things that are
happening within our community.
But before we do, what is it
about East Tennessee, because I
just got back from Tri Cities
with leadership, Tennessee, and
one of the main topics was the
opioid epidemic and how it's
just had an outsized effect in
East Tennessee and Appalachia,
for that matter, relative to the
other parts of the state.
Justin Veals: You know, my
experience growing up in
Knoxville, what I believe part
of the issue is, is that so
Knoxville is where it's at.
Because everything most or
Knoxville, I see it was
initially founded in like, 20
years after the revolution,
because all the rivers flow
through there. Yeah. And the
mountain you can get through the
mountains there, and it's in a
valley. So the weather is
better, you know, but, you know,
it was rivers back then. And now
it's highways. And every single
highway running on the Eastern
Seaboard runs through Knoxville,
75. And all Yeah, so if you're
going anywhere, north or south,
you're coming through Knoxville,
any of you're coming from the
Carolinas and stuff like that
you're coming from Knoxville to
Kosta Yepifantsev: I mean, they
have a terrible mental health
issue. Yeah, there you don't
have just a crisis. It's it's a
epidemic. So
Justin Veals: and that is all
over the state. The reason that
it's worse there, I think it's
just a population. How many
people are transient coming
through Knoxville? Think about
game days, right? In Knoxville.
So there's 200,000 people in the
stadium? Yeah. So that's not
counting like all the people who
normally live there and all the
people on the river and all that
stuff. So like, there's just a
lot of things going on and
coming in and out. And they're
on the drug corridor, right? So
if it's coming from Texas or
Georgia, it's coming up to
Knoxville, if it's coming down
from Detroit or Baltimore, it's
going through Knoxville, so
everything converges. I know,
you know, living there and
growing up there as someone with
substance use. I could get
anything I wanted. And it's
available,
Kosta Yepifantsev: except for
mental health services, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, everything's
available except for what you
Justin Veals: saw, like my drugs
were my mental health services,
you know, they closed all the
state hospitals. And there's
nowhere for people to go for
long term mental health
treatment. Yeah, it's something
I deal with in my work now, too,
because we get guys there's, you
know, co occurring disorders,
right? The majority of the guys
in my program have more than one
diagnosis. And some of them have
severe mental illness coupled
with substance use, you know,
we're talking about profound
thought disorders are profound
mood disorders, delusion, you
know, all this stuff. And they
use drugs to cope just like
anybody else with depression or
anxiety too. And if they're
severe enough, I don't know what
to do with them. You know, I
mean, like we tried to get them
involved in outpatient care, but
the safety net outpatient care
in Tennessee is completely
overrun. They do not have enough
case managers or providers or
anything. They may talk to their
provider once a month for five
minutes. They may see their case
manager once a month for 15
minutes. They sign it for
therapy. gets once a month for
15 minutes. And I've been
through therapy myself and once
a month, 15 minutes wasn't good
enough for me. You know, and if
you look at a rural area, you're
talking about volunteer
behavior, health care services,
which not dogging the
organization, but they're
covering the entire upper
Cumberland,
Kosta Yepifantsev: they are
swamped, I actually met the
director in a meeting that I
had. And we were talking
specifically about the mental
health crisis and the services
that we provide. And some of the
individuals that we serve suffer
from substance abuse and have
mental health issues. And when
you say taxed mobile crisis, for
that matter, and like just the
resources across the state, and
like they don't exist, like
mobile crisis barely hanging on
right now, you know, then they
need so many more people, they
need so much more funding, so
many more resources.
Justin Veals: And there's
overlapping too. So when you
have G toxin, CSU and treatment,
right, and all these things, and
they're all offering them,
sometimes they do this thing
where they have to bounce people
around between services to keep
them there longer, because,
okay, you have a mental health
Kosta Yepifantsev: crisis. And
real quick, CSU is crisis
stabilization. Yes, yes, sorry.
You're living
Justin Veals: in a tent and you
have a mental health crisis.
You're thinking about suicide.
You go to CSU, you've got a
maximum of seven days, most of
the time is three to five.
They're gonna give you some
medications set you up with an
outpatient treatment and right
out the door and you're sleeping
in a tent again. Yep. That's not
a solution. Right. You know,
when I was in Knoxville, when I
was homeless on the streets in
Knoxville now, and we're talking
about a problem that is a
magnitude larger than what we're
dealing with here. And you had
people with Down syndrome on the
streets, you had veterans on the
streets, you had people who just
did not have any grip on reality
whatsoever, trying to eke out
survival on the streets of
Knoxville. And you look around,
and even me being involved in
all that, like, you know, that I
was looking around, you see
those people you're like, how
are we letting this happen?
Kosta Yepifantsev: Yeah, well,
I'll tell you, I've met with the
CEO of Helen Ross McNabb, which
is a huge mental health facility
in Knoxville, and one of the
premier facilities in the state.
And he put it real simple. He
said, I would love to serve
those people, but I can't
because Medicaid won't pay us
enough to be able to facilitate
the proper care that's necessary
for them to get better. Most
individuals that are homeless
meet the qualifications for
Medicaid TennCare, essentially,
yeah, and we're gonna talk a
little bit about, you know,
legislation and policymaking and
things like that. But I feel
like it's a it's a problem that,
you know, essentially, they
don't want to think about they
don't want to talk about
Justin Veals: it's difficult,
especially when the people at
the top of the pyramid seem to
be dismantling all our social
programs. Right. And so they're,
you know, refusing money from
the federal government for
things as simple as education.
Sure. So they're definitely not
going to be and they refused
money from the federal
government to expand Medicaid.
Yeah, you know, to refuse our
money. Because that's our money.
Yeah, I pay taxes, right? To
refuse our money to help us is
just a dereliction of duty.
Kosta Yepifantsev: They have a
block grant for our medical
services. So they didn't they're
not just refusing money. They're
they're taking steps
significantly backwards to try
to retain as much control over
how we serve a vulnerable
population. You were unsheltered
for the better part of six years
in Knoxville, as someone that
truly understands the struggles
facing our homeless community.
What is your opinion on cook
Phil's anti panhandling,
signage, and overall attitude?
More importantly, does this
actually help anyone
Justin Veals: does not help
anyone except maybe business
owners who don't like seeing
people who are homeless. At the
core of most mental illness,
substance use and even just
being unsheltered and living on
the streets. At the core of that
is loneliness. Toxic loneliness,
right? That you don't belong,
you're not good enough. No one
cares about me. Like you've been
completely forgotten by society.
When I was living on the streets
in Knoxville. And in Georgia, I
was in Georgia for a while to, I
felt like I lived in a separate
society. Right? I wasn't a
citizen of whatever was going on
around me, you know, and, you
know, I'd have delusion where,
you know, I'd be sitting there
and I'd be on the strip at UT.
And I'd be looking at all the
people driving by and I'm like,
you suckers. You know, I mean,
like, I've got this figured out,
which is crazy, you know, I
mean, but, but you know what I
mean? But like, you know,
because I you breed such
contempt for people who have it
together. Because of the way you
get treated. You know, like, I
have nowhere to go it's 100
degrees outside and all I want
to do is I want to go sit in
cookout, get some air
conditioning for a minute like
I'm not bothering anybody I know
it's different from person to
person, but like, I just want to
sit here for a minute, you know,
they don't just ask you to
leave. They ask you to leave and
they make you feel like you
don't belong, right? And I
understand this private property
and understand the rights and
and do but like, you know,
there's a human component to all
of this and we can't live our
lives is narcissistic rule
followers are you know, this is
what I can do well, just because
you can do doesn't mean that you
should do you know, yeah, the
same people that would
disrespect someone who's
homeless, right and make them
feel like they're not good
enough would react strongly if
someone did that to them or
their children, for any reason,
you know, and what's important
to remember here is that these
are people, they're not an
issue, they're not a problem.
This is, you know, homelessness
is not a failure of morality.
Homelessness is a failure of
community. So if you're putting
up signs, you know, to stop
paying, handling and all that
kind of thing you're doing so
like that you are separating
them from our community. So then
comes the propaganda that these
people aren't from our
neighborhood. They aren't from
here. They Yes, they are. You
know what I mean? Like, yeah,
some of them are transient, we
do have people coming in and
out, but like, you were in a
metro area, my view and you
know, I am who I am or whatever,
right. But my view on this is
that once your city becomes a
certain size, dealing with
unsheltered men and women should
become a service of municipal
government, right? You need to
figure out how to deal with it,
because it's going to happen,
Kosta Yepifantsev: but what
about the argument made that,
you know, give to nonprofits and
not to the people pain handling
or the nonprofits able to pull
the necessary weight to meet the
homeless population?
Justin Veals: No, I mean, we
don't have enough services. We
don't have enough money. That's
what I'm
Kosta Yepifantsev: saying. So
why why not have that
discussion? Right. Yeah.
Justin Veals: Also, like these
people aren't donating to
nonprofits because they're not
giving $5 to the guy standing
outside of Publix. Exactly. You
know, that money's not coming
in.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Are there any
organizations in our community
aside from maybe the rescue
mission? That's the only thing
in my that comes to mind for me
that are helping people that are
experiencing homelessness?
Justin Veals: Yeah, there's a
lot going on. Okay, in different
ways, you know, because like
even being the overtax
institution that volunteer is
they are helping, you know what
I mean, Hart is helping, you
know, they're the COC, which is
a federal program started when
Obama was president to help
organize money around
homelessness, right? So, you
know, you part of this
collective organization that way
we know who's what, who's doing
what, who needs money, they have
collective grants. And so the
money is sort of organized in
these regional ways so that it's
more focused. All we're doing is
meeting immediate needs, right?
With the recovery kitchen.
Kosta Yepifantsev: What is the
recovery kitchen.
Justin Veals: So the recovery
kitchen is a nonprofit started
by me, my wife, Melissa, when
the tornadoes hit, okay, there
was a lot of organized charity
going on. And even though we
weren't really affected, there
was still food coming into the
group home that I run. And so we
ended up with like, I don't
know, three or 400 Hot dogs, and
I had never been in any of these
hot dogs. Right. And so, me and
Melissa, one day and a few of
the guys, we cooked hundreds of
hot dogs, wrapped in aluminum
foil and put them in bags. And
we just went out and started
trying to find people who needed
something to eat. And that's how
we got started. And for the
first six months, we paid for
everything out of our own
pocket. We did it once a month,
once a month, we get a meal
together, and we go hand it out.
And we'd go into the camps we'd
go where, where they were paying
handling, where they were
hanging out, and we started
building relationships with
these people. And then it became
every two weeks. And then it's
every week, which is what we do
now. And right now. We are
feeding 80 people a week. Now,
all of those people aren't
living in tents. The majority of
them are here in Cookeville.
Yes, yes. Yes.
Kosta Yepifantsev: So the whole
thing about, you know, the tent
cities don't exist anymore.
That's not true.
Justin Veals: There aren't big
tent cities here. Okay. There
are small camps. Okay. But you
know, it's not safe for them to
congregate in large groups,
right? Because, you know,
there's a lot going on, there is
no safety. When you live in a
tent, more people that are
around them are likely something
bad might happen, you know, not
that, you know, they're any more
dangerous than general
population, but you don't have
the protection of pants or a
door. Right? You know, fences
make good neighbors. And I do
believe that because, you know,
I mean, anyone who was maybe
living next to somebody right
now, that could hurt us and
thinks about hurting us, but
don't because they can't get in
the house. Right. You know,
like, that's just reality, you
know, and you don't they don't
have those protections, you
know, and it's very important
that they trust us so you know,
the locations and all that where
we serve are never given out to
anybody, like even our partners,
and Lucas tried a lot ought to
get that information out of me
and I'm
Kosta Yepifantsev: not sure why.
Here's something interesting.
Alright, so we're talking about
the signs, the Panhandle signs.
So the intent for those signs is
to say, don't give money
directly to people that are
experiencing homelessness
instead give it to nonprofits.
It from your perspective,
obviously, you're in this in
this line of work. That's not
occurring. I interned with Brian
Williams, we talked about his
homelessness bill for a very
long time. Which one the one
that it that criminalizes
homeless? So the camping bill,
right? Yes. So I was there in
2022, while I was in school,
getting my degree, and I
interned with him. So I have an
opinion. And I want to hear your
perspective on it. When Ryan
passed the bill, State
Legislature passed a bill to
criminalize camping on public
grounds for counties. I think it
was all for county, city and
state property.
Justin Veals: Yeah, it was
already legal statewide. Yes,
state property. municipal
property.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Here's an
argument. When this bill passed,
essentially, in my or in my
opinion, it caught a faiz people
who are homeless, because they
are put into the system. And
they have to be managed in terms
of their substance abuse issues,
their housing issues, their
financial issues, their
healthcare issues, it puts them
into a pipeline so that they're
not sort of unto themselves,
right. Maybe that's the intent.
But is that actually happening?
And am I just looking at it
completely in the wrong way?
Justin Veals: I don't believe
that's the intent. And I've met
with Robin Williams, but that
may be things that are said out
loud, I don't know that those
are the things said in private.
And it could be right if the
system worked differently than
it does.
Kosta Yepifantsev: How do we
need to change it in terms of it
working differently?
Justin Veals: Right now, the
carceral system is just about
punishment. We're not taking
people in and rehabilitating
right now there are a lot of
programs that are strapped on
the state and county governments
at the jail and and a prison
level that claimed to do these
things. But they're really just
going through the motions and
checking boxes because they get
federal money to put people in
those programs. Okay, as far as
real and lasting change, that's
not happening. And our biggest
mental health provider in the
United States is county jails.
That's insane. Yeah, especially
when you have some county jails,
which aren't even functioning at
that, like, you know, not giving
out medications and things like
that, you know, and putting
someone in isolation, and
unmedicated, when they have
profound thought or delusion
disorder is detrimental to their
health for a long period of
time, what we need is, first of
all, we need to incarcerate
fewer people, there's a very
large number of Americans that
have felony charges. Now, you
can get a felony charge for
having as little as half a gram
of methamphetamine in your
pocket. That is a small amount,
yeah, point five grams, you
could lose eight to 12 years of
your life for that little
amount, if they feel like, you
know, they can prove it, because
the statutes are written, you
know, you have felony
possession, which is supposed to
be for, like personal use, and
things like that. It's still a
felony. And then you have like,
you know, what I was charged
with, which the statute covers
possession with intent, which is
what my charges were
manufacturing and distribution,
sale and delivery, you know, all
these different things. And it's
eight to 12 years, you know, and
if you're in a drug free zone,
they call it, they can either up
the class of your felony. And
it's already a Class B, right?
He's so they put you in the
range of their with murderers
and rapists, right, or they can
max out your time, right. So you
have range one, which is 30%,
before you get parole, which the
governor has messed with that
too. What we've got to do is
actually offer help, right?
These people need counseling,
they need treatment. If you want
to reduce recidivism, you have
to treat the root causes of
crime, because crime is a
symptom, right? And the root
causes of this stuff, range is
ranges. You know, some people
have mental health issues. Some
people have substance use, some
people are just in the worst
period of their life. If you
look at the homeless population,
and all you see are, you know,
criminals and addicts and things
like that, well, it's the
chicken in the egg. What came
first, because once you're in a
desperate situation, you're
going to start making changes in
your life to survive in that
desperate situation, because
humans are extremely durable.
And we can get used to almost
any living situation and find
out how to survive.
Kosta Yepifantsev: So it's all
about money. Yeah. So
essentially, if we had these
programs to support these
individuals, but I think it's it
goes a little bit farther than
that. There's truth. things that
we need to talk about, we need
some type of value based
outcomes, meaning like, if
somebody receives the services,
we need to actually be able to
measure that they're working
that the provider is reaching
some type of positive outcome,
because you're absolutely right.
And, you know, being in
healthcare and very familiar
with this, there's a lot of box
checking that happens, you know,
you got to check this box, check
this box, check this box. So you
can have a higher billing code,
you know, stuff like that. And,
obviously, there's services that
you can't even bill for unless
you go through the motions. But
that doesn't help people. Safe
to say that we are low on
resources, not just money, but
just in general facilities. So
I'm reading this morning,
actually, in preparation for the
show about cedar recovery, the
place in Overton county that's
opening up their substance abuse
and addiction treatment center,
they have to get a certificate
of need. So I want to talk about
certificate of needs. We've got
a drug epidemic, we've got a
mental health crisis, we've got
no capacity across the state,
you know, and why in the world,
do we still have certificate of
needs?
Justin Veals: I have no idea.
Right? And and it's especially
the upper Cumberland is a
wasteland. Right when it comes
to mental health and substance
use treatment? Yeah. So if
you're here in Cookeville, it
seems like everything's okay.
We've got a detox center, we've
got a crisis unit, we've got a
treatment center, we've got you
know, Independence again, which
I run is a transitional program.
You've got, you know, priority
house, there's a few Oxford
houses that have popped up, you
know, so there's various
resources here. But we're
serving the entire state.
Because once you leave Knoxville
and head this way, like that's
it till you get here. And
between us in Nashville, there's
nothing you know, and then you
look at the counties in the
upper Cumberland, you've got
counties like clay and pick it
which are like, you know,
there's nothing out there. Yeah,
thing whatsoever, you know, and
Ventress I think is starting to
come out of it and be a little
bit better. But you know, how
much of Putnam County is just
supporting the area around us?
It's a lot Yeah. And you know,
the the house I run, we're ttoc
certified, which means guys can
parole out to us if they don't
have a home plan that the state
will approve, and then they come
and complete our program and
then they can move on, you know,
and live live somewhere else. So
we're serving the entire state.
And I get calls from every
prison because there's not
enough resources anywhere. And
they have started mandatory
release. So if you are
nonviolent offender, and you
have less than a year on your
sentence, then you are getting
out on parole. You have to serve
that last year on parole just
like the Fed system does. I have
36 beds right now about to have
a more but like it's just it's
it's hard it's so hard to meet
the needs you know, I may get
there are days where the the
residential treatment center at
volunteer may call me four or
five times.
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Believe me, I'm in healthcare.
And you would think that you
know what, who's my clientele,
people who are elderly who don't
want to go to a nursing home now
we get called all the time from
prisons, people that were
formerly incarcerated people
that are coming out of drug
treatment centers. And it's it's
changed a lot. I don't know how
long you've Well, you've been
sober for for five years. Five.
Yeah, yeah. And so obviously,
did you just immediately start
working on this as soon as you
got sober?
Justin Veals: No, no. So like, I
ended up in Cookeville. Because,
you know, we were just dating
them. But my wife Melissa came
up here to go to independence
again, they had a women's
program nice. And so she
graduated that while I was
incarcerated and going to
treatment and all that kind of
stuff. And so then I was like,
Well, when I get out. I'm just
going to come up there. So I
came up here When we lived in a
motel, we lived at two Wynonna
nice for 10 months. Wow. Because
no one would rent an apartment
to us, which is homelessness is
a multifaceted issue. When it
all boils down to it, what are
we talking about? We're talking
about housing. Right. And the
numbers for housing in Tennessee
are
Kosta Yepifantsev: awful. Yeah,
we are going to talk about it as
an end. But you
Justin Veals: know, so we ended
up here and did that. And then,
you know, I got my first job,
and 15 years, which is a college
manufacturing. Over there, I've
Shadrach, right. And I worked
there for about a year and a
half. And then the executive
director for independence,
again, called me because she'd
heard my name around town, I was
seeking places to start new 12
step meetings. And so I was
getting out there and talking to
people.
Kosta Yepifantsev: So when we
talked about certificate of
need, I think I should clarify
what that actually means. So
that people understand, when you
try to open up a practice,
specifically, most of the time,
it applies to some type of
medical practice, specialty
service, the state of Tennessee,
and other states across the
United States, do not want to
over saturate the market,
because they want the providers
to be able to thrive. So if too
many addiction centers open up,
the pie gets split too many
ways. And there's not enough
money to operate. And you know,
the whole system kind of is
affected by it. So they
developed a certificate of need
that says you have to prove to
us before we give you a license
that there is a need for it in
your community. I've experienced
this with nursing homes,
especially but it's always
fascinated me with addictions
and substance abuse and
treatment centers. In your
opinion, does it almost feel
intentional, like, let's close
off as many of the roads so that
we don't have to even consider
funding, the social set, the
social safety net, and all these
services, let's make it as
difficult as possible for people
to be able to access the
necessary resources, so that
they want
Justin Veals: this is one of
those conversations where like,
when I'm out in public run
Coupal I try to watch what I'm
saying. Sure. Because
Kosta Yepifantsev: I think later
on a podcast, yeah, no one's
gonna hear this.
Justin Veals: So the thing is,
is that it's not a bug, it's a
feature, I do believe that. I do
believe that there are people in
the halls of power, that are not
interested in keeping the door
open for people to have upward
mobility, the market system
we've adopted in the United
States, and that we hold true
to, you know, almost religiously
consolidates money and power and
wants to people get it, they
don't want to give it up. And
it's easier to keep us under the
boot in different ways. You
know, like, Tennessee's
destroyed unions, and, you know,
Tennessee Democrats have done
nothing to stop it. They've
convinced blue collar workers
that unions are bad, which is
crazy and crazy, you know, I
mean, it's absolutely crazy, you
know, collective bargaining and
free association. You know, I
mean, like, I'm not a legalist.
I don't believe in rights,
right? Like, I'm a human being,
I'm not hurting nobody, what
doesn't matter what I'm doing,
you know what I mean? But we do
live in a legal society. And I
have the right to free
association, and I should be
able to collectively bargain my
employer who holds so much sway
over the quality of my life.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Can I take it
a step further? Yeah, I just had
this discussion. So the hot to
trot right now. Imagine if a
provider like myself, got with
other providers that actually
look at it from an altruistic
narrative. At the end of the
day, just want to pay my people
a living wage, I want to be able
to give them a better life than
when they started working with
me. We can't collectively
bargain as companies, we can't
come together and leverage our
resources and tell the state
like no unless you pay us what's
necessary for us to be able to
pay our staff what's necessary
for us to be able to provide
quality outcomes, not just
checkboxes, but actually good
services. We're not going to do
it. We're going on strike.
That's illegal, because
apparently there's this
antitrust Sherman Act thing that
essentially closes off another
door for us to be able to say,
Absolutely not, you can't do a
block grant and not expand
Medicaid. Like, What are y'all
doing? You got huge problems
over here. And we're on the
ground trying to fix it. And
y'all are making it harder for
us to try to fix it. So please
continue. Sorry. I had to
interject. Yes. You're talking
about collective bargaining?
Yes. Like I resonate with it.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Justin Veals: I mean, what's
what's the issue is having
people address their needs,
right? Especially considering
what's happened over the last
three years and as countries no
matter which side of this
fictional aisle that they
create, where they set Brightest
into these camps. You know what
I mean? Like, but that's a whole
other thing. But what no matter
what shot out, it's not been a
good three years. Yeah. What I
saw in 2020. And this is one of
those things it's like, you
know, I've always been sort of
radical and always wanted to be
active and do things. But I was
sitting there during, you know,
Black Lives Matter and all this
stuff going on, and I'm watching
on TV, and we're locked down
here in Tennessee, and I'm
running a group home. So I'm
just like, locked in with like,
20. Guys, and you know, we're
just having to find stuff to do.
Yeah. And I'm watching the TV.
And I've seen I've seen
protests. But I saw three
billionaires shoot themselves
into space with my tax money in
one year. Yeah. You know what I
mean? Like, what are we doing?
Yeah, I'm seeing starving people
and hopeless people every day.
And we have these guys that
aren't paying taxes, getting our
money to on space vanity
projects, in you expect me to
think that you have my best
interests in mind. And that sort
of thing happens on both sides
of the political aisle. It's not
just one party doing right. So
Democrats
Kosta Yepifantsev: are also to
blame. Yeah, absolutely. Because
Justin Veals: either they are
actually part of the problem
like mass incarceration, which
they are, yeah. Or their silence
is complicity. Right. It's one
of the other. You know, I
remember the working class, me
and my wife together, maybe
bring in 45 a year, right? We
do. All right. You know what I
mean? But like
Kosta Yepifantsev: household?
Yeah, yeah. That's hard to make.
Yeah. Like the, it's hard to
make an M 45k. Yeah.
Justin Veals: And if part of my
work didn't supply our housing,
we would be in a different boat.
If we had children, we'd be in a
different boat. We've got three
big dogs, which it's, it's it
can get expensive, but they're
not children, you know what I
mean? So, but I've just seen
more and more that, like, the
powers that be do not care how
we feel about it. Right? So
power has become so consolidated
and money so consolidated that
like, we don't have any voice
anymore. And if you're a felon,
like I am, I don't have a voice.
I can talk. Sure. But I can't
vote, right? The only thing that
I can hope to influence in the
political process, either
through activism, or money, I
can't donate money, but then I'm
donating money to people who
don't have my best interest or
to you know, like, it's really
hard for me to find someone who
represents me. You have blue
collar workers in the south,
that are like, a millimeter away
from class consciousness, right?
Like just really seeing things
how they are, and they start off
and they're like, I'm paying too
much taxes. I don't make enough
money. Rain is too high. It's
the people on Well, first of
all, you don't I mean, like they
always like veer off at the end,
and they don't ever get there.
You know what I mean?
Kosta Yepifantsev: They've been
told the narrative. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, voting against
people's interests. It's a
phenomenon that I've never
experienced before in my entire
life. It's pick a county, for
example. They are the most
insured population in the state
95% of Pickett county residents
have insurance. Guess what, it's
also one of the poorest in the
state, right. And most of those
95% have TennCare. So that's why
it's the most insurance. What's
fascinating about that is they
need so many more resources, not
just economic resources, but
like we're talking about with
regards to treatment centers and
facilities. And I mean, dare I
say, like a hospital, that's not
an hour away, you know what I'm
saying? But we're not even
willing to consider that. And
the people in Pickett county are
voting in the complete opposite
of how they should vote. And I
think it warrants to say that
Democrats don't have all the
solutions either. No, no, no,
they're just willing to devote
more money to solving. It says,
so
Justin Veals: there's this joke,
right? You know, Republicans are
like your uncle, who promises to
take you to Disneyland, and then
tells you there's no money for
Disneyland and then goes by
himself. Yeah. All right.
Democrats are like your aunt who
promises to take you to
Disneyland, but there's always
something else going on. You go
to the politicians, and you're
like, you know, we need help. We
need social services, and
Republicans are just like, No,
and then Democrats are no black
lives matter. You know, I'm
saying like, it's the same
answer, but they throw
compassion on top of it. So as
the right uses issues like
abortion and religion to control
their base, Democrats use social
issues to control their base.
Yeah, without doing anything
about those social issues. They
didn't codify abortion, gay
rights or any of that stuff, but
they but they use them to get
you to the polls. You know, it's
the same. It's the same trick on
both sides of the road.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Is that kind
of the white liberal thing that
you were talking about earlier?
Like what is that is that play a
component in tall?
Justin Veals: Yeah, so it's like
so so from, you know, one of the
letters that Mark King wrote
when he was in jail, right, and
he talks about like how the
white liberal is a bear or to
progress, because it's about
having awareness, but not not
having any follow through and
thinking that you can have
conversations with fascists and
people like that, right? Like,
and that's the Democrats main
problem, I think is that they
want to have, they want to talk
to people who aren't interested
in hearing them talk.
Kosta Yepifantsev: I'm very
familiar with this. So it's
words and not action. So
essentially, they're like, let
me spend, you know, six months
on discussing how we should talk
about it. And then when they
start doing it, they get so
bogged down by talking to people
that don't really care what they
have to say that they never get
to the action part.
Justin Veals: And then they get
bullied, right? To the point
where it's just completely
dismantled, right, like,
Kosta Yepifantsev: go back, they
go back and say, We have to talk
about this, again, it didn't
work, like what
Justin Veals: we saw with the
Affordable Care Act was just
like a perfect example of that,
right? They're like we're doing
this we're putting out his
health care plan people need
access to, and then it's just
everything just went out the
window, one by one by one, you
know, and convinced me from a
standpoint, that's not the
corporate standpoint, why single
payer health care isn't a good
idea.
Kosta Yepifantsev: I mean, I can
spend about an hour talking
about it. But we don't have
enough time. I do want to ask,
though, if you could speak
directly to the legislature, or
to policymakers, what would you
say?
Justin Veals: I've been thinking
about this. And because there
are basically two roads, I could
go down. And I think the most
effective one right now would be
to talk about housing, because I
was talking to a friend of mine
who also works in social
services the other day, and she
was like, some days, I feel like
a piece of trash, telling these
people to process their emotions
when they're living in a tent.
There was a big conversation
that Ryan Williams was a part of
about how housing first programs
don't work. And I was I met with
him during the day on the Hill
for the Tennessee Solidarity
Network. How do we know they
don't work? We haven't funded
them. One of the things that we
could do is we could get rid of
single family zoning. Okay,
that's right, so that we can
build more condensed housing in
certain areas and meet the need,
especially of low income
households, you know,
Kosta Yepifantsev: so like I
said earlier, I'm in that
leadership, Tennessee class, one
of the one of our classmates,
his name's Troy white, he runs
nbha, in Nashville, fascinating
guy went down there and met with
him and spent kind of half a day
with him. In East Nashville, you
know, those really nice
apartments that you drive past
and you're thinking like
everybody in there is, you know,
paying $3,000 a month, at least
that's what I thought. So in
those apartments, the majority
of them are low income, and work
based income units, they tear
down the old project homes, and
they put them in these new
apartments. behavioral
modification is his goal, so
that they can break the cycle of
poverty. Now, here's the crazy
part. Troy, he lived in Atlanta,
and he lived in Charlotte. Now
he lives in Nashville. And he
has been working on this project
for just a few years, his
predecessor was working on it
for a decade. It's happening in
Nashville. This problem is, in
my opinion, even worse, in
smaller rural communities. But
we aren't looking at the problem
in the same lens that Nashville
is looking at it as, and we are
going to find ourselves in a
very precarious and we may
already be in that precarious
position, because we aren't
looking at it through the
correct lens. So how do you
convince or is it like the whole
not talking to fascist thing?
Yeah. How do you convince people
to start looking at this problem
differently?
Justin Veals: That's difficult.
Because like everything that
I've said to you today, I've
said like, like, I don't know,
hundreds and hundreds of times
at different things that I've
been, like I said, so once every
quarter, I'm in front of a whole
room of police officers. They're
supposed to be there to learn
how to deal with people in
crisis better. And I look him
dead in the eyes, and I just
tell them, like, look, the
sooner we get them talking to
somebody besides you, the
better. You're not a social
worker. You're not there to do
that. You know what I mean?
You're a hammer. So they're all
nails, you know? And it's just
like SROs right? So the more we
involve cops, more people get
arrested. So we've got to look
at it a different way. Is it all
just money? Money's a component
of everything in the United
States. Right? So I mean, like
people view failure as a failure
of the person right? It's not a
failure of the system. The
system's perfect the system
works for everybody right? It's
that person has a moral failing
that person has an issue they're
not good enough. They don't have
a good work ethic right? They
all they want to do is get high
and be lazy and rich off welfare
and all you know, they
everything that people have
associated With the homeless,
and then low income is about
them being lazy, and sometimes
even unintelligent. And that's
just not true.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Was this a
problem in the 1960s? And 1970s?
Is homelessness and specifically
the, to the extent that we're
that we're seeing it now, is
that a new phenomenon? Or has
that been going on our entire
existence?
Justin Veals: I don't think is
brand new I, I was without any
scientific basis for whatsoever
believe it has more to do with
observation than anything,
right. I like true crime, right
when they talk about like Jack
the Ripper, which is, you know,
the late 1800s, talking about
people paying a penny to stand
up and lean on a rope to have a
place to sleep, you know, that
long ago. And then you have
like, in the 30s, and 40s,
you've got this another to kind
of call Pedro. He was a hobo.
Right, like, so he's like riding
the rails around. Does your
homeless people, you know, I
mean, and there's always been
the low town. And there's always
been people with nowhere to go.
The problem is, it is getting
worse specifically now than it
was before. It's not because
people aren't good human beings
anymore, right? It's because the
system is failing more people
now than it used to.
Kosta Yepifantsev: And I 100%
agree with you. And I think it
started, in my opinion, I think
it started in the early 2000s.
We started to marginalize
people. And then 2008 happened
in it just set a bomb off. Yeah.
And so we've we've never come
back from that. And the whole
the whole experience around
housing that we're about to talk
about when we stopped building
houses, and we stopped diluting
the cost of houses and every
builder that you talk to they're
not building a $200,000 house,
they want to build a
567 $100,000 house in
Cookeville. Yeah, right. So how
do you expect people to make it
when you know, the median rent
for a one bedroom apartment in
Cookeville is $850, which is up
18% from 2022, while the median
individual income remains
stagnant at $25,040. That means
after taxes over half of our
individual's income will go to
housing. How does this huge gap
between affordable housing and
wages play into preparations
that recovery kitchen and other
local nonprofits?
Justin Veals: So specifically
with the nonprofits I'm involved
in, it means that we are serving
more people than what the
community probably at large
ceases emergent situations,
right. So, you know, obviously,
the men and women that are
sleeping on sidewalks and in
tents and things like that are,
you know, they're at their most
desperate moment. We're also
serving families that are living
in motels, because they cannot
get out of that situation. So
imagine you're a single mom
fleeing domestic violence.
You've got two kids, there's no
room at the only dB shelter. We
have domestic violence shelter.
Yeah, we only have one. That's
Genesis house. Yeah, yeah, we
only we've so there's no room
there, right. But you've talked
to the guy who runs this motel,
and he'll give you and your kids
a place to stay. But you got to
work for him seven days a week,
you get your place to live, and
you may get 30 or $40 a week.
How are you supposed to get out
of that situation? Where
Kosta Yepifantsev: easy, right?
Justin Veals: That's really
happening? Yeah, absolutely.
Wow. Once you start to remove
people, from society in quotes,
right, they start to become
marginalized by everybody. So
the felony system of criminal
justice is all about removing
people, I'm, I'm no longer a
citizen of the United States,
right, I still have to pay
taxes. But I don't have any of
the other rights. They've even
made it harder for me to get
them back. Right. So now instead
of just filling out some
paperwork, but my probation
officer or whatever, turning it
in and getting my rights back, I
have to go in front of a judge
and get my citizenship
reinstated. So it cannot be any
more clear that I'm not a part
of your country, right? I'm just
here and they still tax me and I
still pay taxes. And I'm working
class, so I'm paying more taxes
than than anybody. And you know,
because we look at the the
actual tax rate of what we're
talking about here. We're
talking about, like 40% About
right like, like I'm paying a
large when it comes between
income and sales and
registration and all this stuff,
you know, 40% of my income is
going to taxes. Then you look at
someone like Amazon who who
operates in Tennessee, and they
basically pay no income tax.
Yeah. Not only that, they get
tax money for what they do, and
they get tax money to shoot Jeff
Bezos into space. Yeah. How am I
supposed to like be okay with
Kosta Yepifantsev: I mean, it's
crazy because when I prior to
owning this business with
Jessica, like, you just pay
taxes every time you get your
paycheck, and it was like gee,
so To act, and you can never
really do anything unless the
government gives you like an
olive branch, and they say like,
Oh, you want to be a student and
take out student loan debt?
Yeah, well, we'll let you go
ahead and write that off on your
taxes. Or, you know, this year,
we're doing the child tax
credit, you know, so like, they
give you these little olive
branches. Once we bought this
business, and we started looking
at our tax bill, everyone came
out of the woodwork. Oh, you can
you know, there's this loophole
here. There's this loophole
here. There's this loophole
here. Yeah. And I'm like, But
regular people don't have any of
these loopholes. Right. It's
crazy. make any sense? I
Justin Veals: don't have access
to that. Right. So I just have
to pay them. And then you know,
the money doesn't come back.
Right. You know, especially in
Tennessee, where we're setting
on a giant surplus, one of the
only states that has money in
the bank right now. Right? You
know, when you're talking about
rent, you know, prior to 2020,
on average, every year rent went
up about 30 bucks, right? In
2021. It went up an average of
$179. In Tennessee, there are
counties in Tennessee, where you
have, you would have to have two
and a half jobs at minimum wage
to pay for a one bedroom
apartment. You know, that's not
tenable,
Kosta Yepifantsev: what's going
to happen. I mean, if nothing
changes, which it doesn't look
like anything's going to change
anytime the
Justin Veals: housing market
tends to never go back to where
it was, even if it gets better.
Every time there's a crash or an
expansion, like a will go back
some. But you know, we're not
looking back and going back to
pre pandemic levels, for sure.
And I think the reason for that
is the corporate ownership of
private property, rented
apartment uncouple, from private
owner, go try to do that, right
and right, they don't exist,
right? Housing, you know, to me,
should be a right, not a benefit
of your compliance with the
system. Everyone needs a place
to live.
Kosta Yepifantsev: So if we
don't do anything about this
problem, what happens to the
people, what happens to all the
people that are not able to
afford to live in a shelter that
don't have shelter,
Justin Veals: what we're seeing
will just get worse, right? So
we're gonna see more and more
people living on the streets,
we're going to see more and more
people succumbing to overdose
and substance use, we're going
to see more and more children
being taken from their families,
which is also an epidemic in
Tennessee, someone dies of an
overdose, every eight minutes is
crazy. I just lost a friend
three weeks ago, good friend,
you know, and we're still trying
to get over that. But you know,
that's what's happening. For the
first time in history, our life
expectancy is going down.
Everyone who gets up and talks
about it, you know, they want to
blame somebody else. But the
calls coming from inside of the
house. I mean, like, whatever
problem is happening, here is a
problem here that we need to
fix. And we don't fix it by
marginalizing another group of
people. The thing is, is that I
don't think policymakers don't
understand for the most part,
because living in Tennessee, and
not having someone in your
family that is experienced
mental illness or substance use
seems very unlikely, correct?
You know, in places like Knox
County, it's something like
three out of every five people
have some sort of issue. And
there are counties where it's
probably, you know, the same out
here. Right, but at least there
are some resources in Knoxville,
you know, here it's, it's, it's
a no man's land.
Kosta Yepifantsev: So I want to
ask you about when it comes to
affordable housing, you know,
you've got red bud village being
built, right. And you know, how
we're talking about how this
problem is evolving? You're on
the front lines of it? Do we
just need to build more
affordable housing like Redbud
village? Or is this problem so
out of hand at this point that
we need, like federal resources
to be able to make it a viable
solution?
Justin Veals: Well, make no
mistake, it's only federal
resources that are really being
used for these programs, right?
The money that's coming through
THDA, the majority of that money
is coming from HUD. Okay, it's
not. So these are these is
federal money to begin with? I
see. Yeah. So like, what the
federal government likes to do
is they get a bunch of money
together to throw at a problem,
because that's all they really
do. And then it's filtered
through other organizations. So
in Tennessee, it's THDA, and HUD
and the USDA and things like
that, that, you know, sort of
filter this money around, and
then it ends up in the hands of
like the United Way and other
nonprofits and COC organizations
and then, you know, gets
dispersed that way. It is about
money. But, you know, we're
talking about like a multitude
of solutions for a multifaceted
program. Housing first is I
think the only thing that makes
sense to me, right?
Kosta Yepifantsev: I mean, we
can agree housing has to come
about Yeah,
Justin Veals: but like there are
different types of housing that
different people may need. You
know, you have like the ethics
are called the iris cottages and
in Cumberland County, which
they're like four bedroom
houses, that have staff
interaction for people, you
know, to help with case
management, things like that.
Independence again, which I run
their men's program, our model.
Now we're transitional. So
that's what we're called. But
our model is closer to permanent
supportive housing than it is
transitional, which is where
like, they have access to case
management, we, you know, and
all these other kinds of things,
there's no maximum amount of
time they lived there, you know
what I mean? Like, we're there
to help them on a day to day
basis, you know, they have a
problem, they come and talk to
us, that I think is the gold
standard right now. And veterans
programs are doing the same
thing. They build housing, they
have social workers that are on
site, that they're helping
manage it, and they don't go and
like, Hey, you gotta come meet
with me, you gotta come meet me.
They're just like they're there,
and you drop by the office and
you got a problem, let's we'll
help you fix it. Because the
best types of treatment for
anything, are the ones that
patients want. The more we try
to force someone down a hole,
the less progress you make, the
more we give them access, and
support and compassion and love,
the more change we actually see,
Kosta Yepifantsev: but are we
building enough affordable
housing? No. Okay. So if we
don't build enough affordable
housing, and you keep seeing
people that are addicted, and
that are suffering, and that are
caught in the cycle, just so we
can kind of foreshadow a little
bit, how do you see this problem
unfolding? Like, when does it
hit a climax to where people
say, Oh, we've got to fund these
programs? Because we've got to
fix this problem. When does that
happen?
Justin Veals: I think that if we
continue without changes, that
more and more people are going
to be removed from the labor
force. So right now, extremely
low income families, 35% of them
are in the workforce, the rest
are like disabled, or things
like that. 20% of those are
unemployed, these are extremely
low income houses, right? So
that's a large, that's 20% of
35% of low income. So we're very
small portion, right? If we
continue, those numbers will
grow.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Right? That's
an economic problem. Yes,
absolutely.
Justin Veals: Everything that
you deal with with human beings
is going to affect everything
that they're there in part of,
right. So if you treat people
like crap at every level, you
know, it's going to affect
money, it's going to affect
housing, it's going to affect
markets is gonna affect
everything, you know. So if we
don't start to consider the
human being is more than a tool
of the economy. It's just gonna
get worse and worse, and and
people have to be connected
together in order to survive.
Kosta Yepifantsev: You're
absolutely right. Before we wrap
up, I want to talk about
recovery kitchen and
independence again, what do you
do on a weekly basis? How can we
get involved? And what resources
do you need?
Justin Veals: The majority of my
work is with independence.
Again, I do do things like this,
where I go out and talk about
work and things like that for
recovery kitchen, my wife is
doing the heavy lifting on
recovery kitchen now because I
just ran out of time, but with
independence again. So I spend
almost every day of my life at
one of our locations, helping
men get their lives together. We
have men coming in from prison,
jail, the streets, treatment,
mental health facilities all
over. The one thing that they
have in common is substance use
disorder. But there's a lot of
other things that we're dealing
with, right. So we have, you
know, institutionalization
mental illness, domestic
violence, codependency, you
know, we're dealing with a lot
of stuff. I teach a cognitive
course, that was developed in
Tennessee state prisons called
Moral Reconation, therapy 16 to
20 weight course, they take that
when they first get there, they
get involved in 12 Step support
groups, so that way, they're
connected with other men trying
to do the same thing. We offer
budget planning and things like
that, so they can know how to
handle their money, because most
of them don't, you know, and a
plethora of other unknown
services, some of them don't
have ID, so we pay for that, and
let them pay us back credit
scores, you know, we try to help
them get like credit building
cars and things like that and
get their credit report in
check, because you have to have
a 650 credit score now to rent
an apartment and even though
they don't report rent to your
credit, which doesn't make any
sense. So, you know, like, can
we have both, you know, what I
mean? And so we're really like,
it's, it's a holistic approach
that we try to take, alright, so
anything that you got going on,
I want you to talk to me and as
a peer recovery specialist,
that's what we're, we're
certified to do. That's what
we're taught to do, you know,
every day, I mean, they're doing
that kind of stuff with recovery
kitchen. You know, me
personally, what I'm doing is
trying to spread the word
talking to our community
partners, talking about what we
do, even to you know, law
enforcement, I want them to know
that we exist because if they
see somebody in need, I want
them to call
Kosta Yepifantsev: us. What is
the recovery kitchen?
Justin Veals: We're just trying
to meet immediate needs, right?
So okay, we provide a hot meal
once a week to right now at
we're about to go to 100 We just
bought a new SUV. Nice so we can
regulate more. More polluted
air. Yeah. nicest car ever
owned. Nice. So we've got more
room to feed more people,
because we can easily feed over
100 every week because we're
dealing with the unsheltered and
families. And anybody who needs
food. If somebody calls me says
they're hungry, I'm gonna figure
out how to give him some food.
Right? We also distribute other
goods, you know, tents and
canned goods and groceries and
things like that.
Kosta Yepifantsev: How are you
guys funded? Community funded,
right. So yeah, get out. Now
that state or federal fund now,
you're doing all of this with so
donations
Justin Veals: with recovery
kitchen? Yes. Now with
independence game, the only
thing that we get from the state
is to the AARP program, which is
addiction recovery program. And
my understanding of our budget
is we get roughly about 34,000 a
year, which only pays for our
drug testing. So the
independence again, operates
mainly on the rent that we
charge the guys, right, because
they come in and get a job and
pay rent, right. And I tell
them, You're not really paying
rent, what you're paying for is
that this place still exists for
the next guy that needs it.
Exactly. But recovery kitchen is
completely community funded now.
So we take in donations, we have
community partners, with
churches and other
organizations, and they help
provide meals and food and
things like that. The two things
that recovery kitchen has done
that I'm most proud of our
organization. And my wife,
Melissa, who is out there every
week is that we have garnered
relationships with people who
normally wouldn't work together.
So at our last festival of
compassion over Christmas, that
call us at church of Christ, we
had four different churches, for
different denominations, all
working together to give these
people food and clothes and
other things, right. So it's not
important, none of that stuff is
important. We're here to help
these people. Right. And that's
it. And the second one is our
relationships with the
unsheltered men and women in our
area, they trust us enough to
they tell us where they're gonna
be. And they get in contact with
us when they need stuff, and we
have them into our home, you
know, we have people come by
just knock on the door and be
like, Hey, I'm hungry.
Kosta Yepifantsev: You're able
to do all of this with
$55,000.36 beds. Imagine if you
could have the necessary
resources, you could serve
hundreds of people. I guess
that's the crux of it all, you
know,
Justin Veals: but not everything
scales, you know, so it's not
like a hospital where like,
Okay, I've got 10 beds. And
well, if I had more money, I can
have 100 beds, you know, I have
more money, I could have more
beds, right. But like, it's more
like education, where you can't
just build more classrooms,
right? And or have more
students, you know, so there's a
human component to all this,
which is something I try to
explain to people because people
want to create, like apps and
all this stuff for like moving
people around and knowing what's
out there and stuff. Well,
there's a human component to
this, that doesn't really
process with technology very
well. You know, accountants
don't understand the differences
that we need, you know, yes, if
I had more money, I would have
more staff and I could help more
people. But I think the personal
component of being able to work
with them one on one is more
important in their recovery,
right? Because they, they can
learn to see me and trust me,
because like, I'm one of them.
Yeah. And that's one of the
reasons we work with ttoc. You
know what I mean? So I can help
those guys coming out of prison.
I hate working with ttoc. But if
I don't do it, I can't help the
guys coming out of prison. So
like, I got to put up with
whatever reports and all this
other stuff if they want, you
know, and it's a bureaucracy,
you know, science, it's a lot of
pointless paper. But we go
through it so that I can help
those people.
Kosta Yepifantsev: We ended
where we started checking boxes.
So we always like to end the
show on a high note, who is
someone that makes you better
when you're together.
Justin Veals: So this is, it may
sound cheesy, but my wife is my
partner in everything. We met at
a trap house in Fountain city,
nearly six years ago. I was
there to sell some drugs. And
she was there to buy some right.
And we ended up going on this
adventure together. And it led
us all the way down to Albany,
Georgia, where we were living on
the streets and taking baths in
the Flint River and stealing our
food and all that kind of stuff.
And then back to Knoxville and
getting arrested in both of us
getting clean and then coming
back out and just everything in
our life has completely changed.
She was standing there brushing
your teeth the other day, and I
was just thinking about all of
this because you don't think
about it all the time. You know,
thinking about the journey that
brought us here, you know, and
then, you know, the other day we
went and bought this GMC Yukon
Denali, right. I'm like, This is
crazy. You know what I mean?
Like we didn't have, we were
literally using the bathroom in
a bucket for a year. You know
what I mean? Like, and now here
we are, and, you know, that's
why we you know, I'm just so
glad to have her everywhere I
go. We came here, you know, on a
journey together. She graduated
a program that I'm now working
for. We started recovery kitchen
together. And there's this
saying that I learned from Um, a
book about Fred Rogers. It's
South African. And it's a boon
to right which was like a Linux
operating system right. But what
it means well one of the
meanings is is I am because we
are. And so like my humanity
itself is like clarified and
sanctified and defined by other
people, not me. I am because we
say I am right, you know, so my
community is how what reflects
my humanity back in me. And I am
because we are, it's just this
beautiful idea. And that's
something that we used to write
letters when I was incarcerated
back and forth, and I'd always
put it at the end of the letter,
you know, and to come to all of
this and to be where I am right
now, like without her I wouldn't
be here. And I'm just eternally
grateful for the relationship
and the journey that we've been
on together.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Thank you to
our partners at Loxx Salon and
Spa for presenting this episode.
Loxx is an Aveda Concept Salon
providing the highest quality in
hair, skin and nail services,
from extensions, coloring,
facials, and microblading, Loxx
is your beauty destination. To
find out more visit their
website at loxxsalon.net
Morgan Franklin: Thank you for
joining us on this episode of
Better Together with Kosta
Yepifantsev. If you've enjoyed
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and editing by Mike Franklin.
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