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I was the one in the hot seat this time. Bloomreach's Divya Mulanjur flipped the mic on me...
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Creators and Guests
What is Making Sense of Martech?
Unfiltered takes on the biggest shifts in marketing technology. We spotlight what matters, who's leading (or lagging), and what's next. In Martech, clarity is power — and we're here to deliver it.
There's a version of email marketing everyone sees. Campaigns sends revenue, and then there's
everything underneath that. The data work, the segmentations, the integrations that nobody
mentions until they stop working. That's what this conversation is really about. Because honestly,
that's where most programs live or die. Hi, I'm Livia. VP of Product Marketing at Boom Reach.
Welcome to Boom Reaches. Marketers and marketers, conversations between marketers and what's
actually working right now. I'm joined today by Jacqueline Freedman, CEO and co-founder of monarch,
a fractional full stack marketing consultancy specializing in mops and martech. Jacqueline,
really glad to have you here. Thank you so much for having me. Looking forward to our conversation.
Yeah, I'm really excited to have this conversation because honestly, I've been, you know, stalking you
on LinkedIn and email geeks for a while. And I know you have hot takes on a lot of things, which
is really great to see, but you also bring a perspective that's genuinely rare. You've been
in-house. You've worked in operations, and now you advise brands across the industry. And God knows
we're going through turbulent and ever changing times. So you've basically seen the email problem
from every angle and you're now seeing the next evolution. And I think that makes for a very
different kind of conversation. Agreed. It's been a wild time. Let's just say I'm
so grateful to be here, though. For for all marketers. Um, but no, before we get to the tactical
stuff, I really want to start somewhere a little bit more personal. Um, I think it actually will
help set us up for everything else. So I saw that you've spent a significant amount of time
in-house, uh, before founding monarch. Um, can you tell us a little bit more about what you did then?
And, uh, what do you miss about it? Yeah. Uh, at every role where I was in-house, it was
very much 0 to 1 build from the ground up. And while I've been at in house more places, the two
most fun ones to talk about are we working Grammarly where literally built it from? We didn't
have much of anything to architecting the entire system, so we work. I was lucky I was a
little young and given keys a bit early, and was leading migrations to things. I didn't even know
what they were just yet, but as a result, I really got to understand all the different stakeholders,
how things worked, and then had to scale it to 17 different languages, you name it. And so that kind
of foundation of scale helped me. Longer term. I was helping advise clients, but also in-house
again at Grammarly, where there wasn't any internal infrastructure prepared for scale. We had
some platforms, we had some of these things, but none of them really spoke to each other. And so
the real throughline between all of my in-house roles and perspective has been just, okay, how do
we make sense of this? How do we make it work for everyone? Not just a specific type of marketer
needs to work for every type of marketer, as well as every stakeholder, which includes engineering
and product and sales and more. Mhm. That's a lot like I mean, I wouldn't say
marketing, but it's a lot like that feels very close to what I do. I feel like a boom in product
marketing. Um, I, I always joke about this as sort of like I have multiple bosses. It's not just the
CMO, but it's true. It's like product and marketing. And then there's the entire go to market. It's
like, how do I if I'm coming out with the messaging or I'm positioning, how does it work
with how does it work for all our internal stakeholders and external stakeholders? That's
across like sales and um, um, sometimes finance and product and marketing. Um,
so I feel like doesn't matter where you sit in marketing, it's pretty much the same job that you
do. It's just different variations of it. Without a doubt. And that's also the the fun part of what I
don't have to miss being kind of now as an advisor and consultant. I'm still all of them are
my customers. It's just obviously a different type of relationship. Um, but I can also be sometimes a
little bit more honest because I don't have to play the political game. Um, because I'm not a fan.
What does, um, how does that look like right now when you advise, like, what are the when
let's talk about like something like what does the project what is the difference look like
right now from in-house or when you're moving from in-house to when you are actually advising
marketers, are you working on the same kind of problems? Are they different kind of problems and
challenges that you're seeing right now? Admittedly, I'm doing the exact same thing I
always did in-house. Now I just get to do it more and more freely. And while I do
miss kind of the follow through of like, hey, here's the blueprint. My whole goal whenever I was
in-house was to create the blueprint and the entire architectural diagram including like. Org
chart, you name it. And I have implemented. But I couldn't do that all by myself regardless. So it's
I don't really get to lose any of it, but I do miss the in-house energy. And fortunately, I'm
still friends with all of my in-house people. And, um, so I don't have to lose out on all of it. But
that is the one thing like kind of being a solopreneur is a little bit harder in that your
camaraderie and your coworkers are not the same. You still have co-working sessions and
accountability sessions with friends and folks, but it's not the same energy. Yeah, no, that makes
sense, I will say. Uh, so I've been in B2B marketing for
six, seven years now. Um, and I used to be an email marketer on the B2C side. There's the thing that
I think that I'm the thing that I miss the most, uh, is having that immediate feedback loop. So like
that, that very real feeling of hitting send. uh. And the feeling that you get that intimidating
feeling. I don't miss the the drop in my stomach, though, because no matter what happens. No, I
don't I agree with that. Like that momentary panic is something that I don't miss, but I do
sometimes think I miss the thrill of that immediate feedback. Like you get a segment wrong,
you get a shot. I did not check that link and that's wrong like that. Immediate feedback is
something. There was something feeling about that that I feel like now. It's sort of like, oh, in
product marketing, we do like all of these message testing and you kind of sort of know this is
going to work well before it goes out. Um, I don't yeah. Sometimes I feel like maybe I do miss that
thrill. Yeah. I know when I think of that thrill, I think it's really like being present as a
marketer, like, ooh, I messed that up. How can I fix it as quickly as possible? Or, oh, I have learned
something that I will take forward. And that's probably really the crux of it. And the difference
between kind of product marketing is like future focus. It's like, all right, this is what we're
bringing to market. This is how we're going to explain it versus. All right. We're doing this
right now, today and seeing how the supplies come in and seeing what the conversions are. And so I
think yeah, it's the immediate feedback and kind of the delayed patience you have to have. Um, I
love a nice little check mark of my to do's, which I don't get quite as much anymore. Yeah. So I hear
you. This is you know, it. It's hot. And I want to talk about you touched upon, like, the
immediate feedback, the thrill that you get, um, the feedback that you get on the campaigns. Um,
it kind of brings me back to it brings me to something that I always think about. Um, like, as a
product market, I feel like I'm in a very I'm in sort of like an operations role. When you've had
on the B2C, I think it was I don't know if it was in-house, but you've had that unique position of
being in or you had an operations title from what I see. So when I think about like when I see
operations and even in our own company. When I say Mops, a lot of what that means is owning the
foundational parts of making marketing or even email marketing really work. So I guess my first,
my question to you is what did you learn about email marketing from that operation's role? Um, and
it often feels like people who are thinking about segments and database, they're the unsung heroes
of the marketing art. Uh, without a doubt, you will agree. Yes, 100%. With with from
your own experience. So in my eyes, they are no different. Um, if you're going to be an excellent
marketer, even if you're not a technical marketer, there's operations involved and being
operationally minded. That said, uh, I think to the core of the question, it's if I want to be a
successful email marketer, what needs to exist first. And that's where kind of I put my
operational habits hat on. And. All right. Do we actually have our data where we need it? Do we
have the data we need to do what we need to do? Is it hygienic? Are we on top of all of the core
things? So I really think of email as it's like a house. You have to have a foundation, you have to
have the plumbing pipes and that is all offs. You gotta if the pipes aren't there, you don't have
running water. Can you live in this house? Yes, but you're limited just for what you can do in the
same way. And so I see them really hand in hand. And to your point of like, the creative and the
beautiful, the strategy that is you're decorating the house, that is super important also. But
you don't want to put lipstick on a pig. It's not going to get you very far. Hey, you can do it to a
point. But um, if you haven't invested, especially in that core infrastructure, how things work, how
the teams operate within all the different platforms, processes, you name it. Can you get by a
little bit? Yes. But you can't scale at likely to pace, right. Your leadership is hoping for. Do you
have stories of lipstick being put on pics that you want to share? Oh so many. I mean, most things
are duct tape. Um, some of my favorites include, uh,
not having any sort of hygiene in terms of validating and verifying emails. Um,
once every three years is not going to cut it. It needs to be a daily, uh, or at least, you know,
quarterly maintenance. My ideal state is, you know, start fresh, do the whole database. Can it be
expensive? Yes, but there's some great platforms and tools out there. And then any net new
customers coming in daily so that then you don't have to worry about it. Um, granted, there are also
other ways to go about it, like, you know, having two factor authentication and having verifiable
emails, things like that. But, um, that is definitely one where if you can't send the email,
no amount of lipstick is going gonna help you. Um, and you have to be able to present yourself in
the inbox to exist. And so, um, that's definitely a very quick lipstick on a pig.
Um, I mean, beyond that, I think this is an issue for everyone, and it's not specific to any one
company, but the amount of different definitions of segments. So let's just go
with a basic B2C consumer components like you've got free and you've got premium. You know, you
would be very surprised how the definitions and the filters are different across
teams. It doesn't seem like it would be like it's oh, it's very straightforward. This one's paying.
This one's not right. There's so many factors that different departments have to weigh in and
counter in that you just don't know until you ask, hey, what's your definition? And then you're like,
oh, we're not even talking the same language. And so that I find super fascinating cause there's a
lot of waste as a result. So especially if you have a large ad budget and you're still marketing
to someone who actually has subscribed and is paying, but you're marketing them as free. Just
because your data isn't aligned, you're not using same definition. That can be a whole lot of money
just down the drain. And while it's not directly maybe a lipstick on a pig there, it's more just
why waste? Yeah. All right. Now now to reverse the role here. What is an example of lipstick on the
pig for you and your experience? That is maybe a horror story. Those are the best. No, but we do
often see and I'm going to talk about what we've seen in the market, not about my own example, but
what we often see when when we talk to email marketers or CMOs,
when they're in the field, they're like, oh, this is I have the specific problem of revenue is down or
I don't, and it's typically revenue, right? It's like my conversions are not happening. I think I
can get more revenue. My marketing, All of those like high level business objectives. Um, and what
we often see is that people then go for I want the campaigns often get the credit right. It's
sort of like the campaign ships. Great. The revenue numbers are great, the creative looks great. Um, and
then when people are then looking for a solution where I think I need to move my CRM because I've
grown out of it, or my ESB, what they're looking for is give me this cool thing that I can easily
put together a campaign with, or I can now it's all agents. Like, can you make it easy? Can you make
it quick? Can you? Something that's very easy to use. I mean, all of that is important. Yes, but I
think to your point of putting lipstick on a pig, what we see often is people come talk to us. We
talk to them about. Yes. But then here's the more foundational element of it, though. Have you
thought about your data infrastructure? Because no amount of AI or agents on top of it is going to
fix that. And then we've seen cases where they're like, oh no, I don't know. This is too much work. I'm
going to go away. Uh. Or my it think and worry about that. And then they go and pick another
vendor. And then one year later they're back in the market. They're like, we should have. You were
right. And it didn't. Yeah, I can tell. I call it S.O.S., I call it shiny object syndrome. I, I think
it's not just marketers who are immune to this, but I think it's just, hey, this tool is saying
they can do this. No offense to product marketing, but they're saying we can do this. So let's see.
And not realizing you have to have the core foundation in place and also a maturation level
within your own org to be able to scale to certain aspects. If you don't have that
foundational component, you're just automating garbage, frankly. Like you have
to have it all, especially now with AI, you have to have a semantic layer. You have to have it tagged
in such a way that it can actually be legible and read by Llms or AI or however you're going about
it. And so I think there's a lot of foundational misunderstanding of what can or can't be
identified automated. There's so much that can be, but there's so much that shouldn't be. And it's
really discerning the difference that I find fascinating, particularly from an executive level,
that I'm just like, we can make AI do that, right? And I foresee a lot of crashing and burning ahead
for companies that have only that vision. 100% agree. I think there's a lot of expectation of AI
being this magic button and cannot, uh, because then what your what you end up
doing is you then start relying on I mean, we see this time and time again, time again where you
rely on rock stars and not processes and actual data and infrastructure that's in place. And so
when that person leaves, you're like, oh, shoot, what do I do now? And now I'm left with this fragile
stack. Um, no, I 100% agree. I think focusing on that and that's, that's a lot of what we see is like
focusing on that foundation, building the data, building, making sure that you have the context, um,
in that layer where you do understand the customer, I think, is where we educate when we see
prospects, where like, we know what you're looking for, but this is this is what you should be
worried about and what you should be like. This is where you are in your maturity and something that
we often see in the market. Yeah, exactly. Having been that unicorn, that rock star before.
Highly don't recommend. Um, it's often just a compilation of institutional knowledge and
figuring things out and either a lack of documentation because you haven't had time. Now
it's easier with AI. I wish I'd had all of those options and notes that could have been
automatically created back then, and wrote every single thing, even when you have those handover
documents and also just the documentation and internal wiki. There's also a very good chance
folks won't even look at it. So I think this is actually where tools like glean or being able to
search your own database to really empower marketers more. I see actually training people how
to think being more important Next. And hey, have you consoled or even referenced what
exists already before you ask these questions? And just being an informed employee as well as
informed marketer will make a huge difference. I'm really curious to know, like, where are you seeing
marketers today using AI in their email workflow? Yeah, in terms of AI being part of the email
workflow, it's so dependent. Depends on what SP you're on. Does it have any native or built in
functionality with AI? I mean, the original machine learning AI component is, you know, time spent
optimization or channel optimization. Next best action. Those were all homegrown for a very long
time. Some of these things have now become staples in certain platforms, which is a great thing, but
also they're just the start. And beyond that, folks are once again, it depends on the maturity. It
depends on the scale, depends on what data you already have as a foundation. But some folks are
automating a whole lot more. I mean, there's some incredible email developers who do hand code
things that are actually leaning on cloud code in some regards based off of what they built. And
my favorite example recently is a brand hired an amazing developer to build out all of their
templates. And I was like, great, how are things going at those templates? And I found out they're
using that as the source code, as in they're having AI build things, but it has to QA to match
the source code. And so that one's my favorite example of there is AI, but it's based off of, you
know, the cutting edge development. And so um, but there's so many other ways folks are using it
from automating certain content, subject lines, you name it. I really think it's just so dependent on
what is actually going to move the needle for your company. I biased, I don't think subject lines
are nearly as interesting as folks love to call them. I think either know how to have a good
subject line or not. I think a lot of a b testing for subject lines is kind of a that's a lipstick
on a pig of like, yeah, we're testing, we're experimenting. It's like, no, let's actually
experiment what content is working, not who's going to click. Because likely the people who are
going to click are going to click. Yeah. And um, I don't know. That's that's my perspective at least
there's so many ways folks are using it. Um, not to mention if we're talking B2B as well, there's a
lot of automation along the way. I so we just launched
our marketing agent and some of our customers, you know, have already used it, and they're seeing like
4 to 5 times improvement in just campaign turnaround. And so the way that we and like our
product team is thinking about it and the way that we're our whole philosophy about building it
is, you know, we don't want to come out with a bunch of many different agents. We just want one.
It's sort of like cloud. It's like I go to cloud and I ask the question, and then Claude knows how
to figure it out. Like I would tell it what you figure out the how. And so the philosophy about
the marketing agent is that, you know, how does how does the agent function as an extension of the
marketing team? So once you have so the what our customers have played around with is okay, can it
can build campaigns and everything that you need in order to build a campaign that spans across
teams. How does then the agent act as an extension? And then as we think about developing the
agent and bringing in more skills, it's like it's building on areas of expertise, like you would
different disciplines in a marketing team. And so just like how you would build out your team, how
do I build out this agent? So it actually, you know, acts as an extension, um, which to me is sort of
this thinking of is I just, I can get things out the door fast or is I acting as a genuine
teammate? Um, and that's something that I think about a lot. And to go back to something that you
said, it's a maturity thing because I think our as we as vendors, we think about like, here's how, um, a
product is thinking about it. It's sometimes it's less about the product and it's more about what
does the customer want? Like which what is where are you right now? Where is your team? What are you
actually ready to hand off to AI? Um, where do you see? What is that spectrum that
you've seen with your customer client base? Yeah, I mean, I am both bullish and cynical on all
things agents. And so I, I see AI as an extremely helpful. To your point, teammate
thought, um, thought provoking challenger. Granted, you kind of have to push it and brought it to
make it that um, but I love for me, sometimes 0 to 1 is actually hard even. That's what my specialty
is. And my absolute favorite so far. I'm sure there's plenty more to come. My favorite way of
using AI within a platform is, hey, I want to build this onboarding flow with
four emails. This is these are the triggers and the behavioral components I want as the stop gaps
for delays, etc. etc. and I want there to be different branches. For me, I can say that out loud.
Actually doing all the dragging and dropping, I just it it bothers me. I don't know why. For some
reason I have like a creative block on it. And so all of the years I had to do it manually. Now that
there are platforms and examples of it will at least get you the bones so you can plug it in and
do more like that. For me, as a personal aside, as a game changer, just because I find that difficult.
Um, it's easier, of course, if you know you have the time, you have everything mapped out in Miro, in
Figma. You have everything ready to go. There are very few companies that have that ready to go at
the outset, and I wouldn't set that expectation, especially if you're just trying to think through
things. So I find it to be an excellent thought partner and potential very specific, um,
accelerator. But I guess from your perspective, how how is your team or how is the greater team using
AI and how is it creating just not just speed and efficiency, but adding more team members
essentially? Yeah, um, I think so. There are a couple of places that we use it for,
um, personally, and this is funny. So as I've been so I originally from India, I moved here 12
years ago. Um, and then as I've been progressing in my career, one of the things that consistent
feedback from me has been like, oh, how do I communicate and how do I articulate and how do I
especially Upwork, right. Like as you're progressing in your career? Interestingly, for me
personally, AI has been a coach, uh, for me, that I have benefited a lot in. Sort of like I can think
through things and I think in my native tongue, in my head and I'm like. And then I struggled to like,
you know, speak about it. And so AI for a year, a whole year of like, just, okay, help me articulate
this well and in a way that makes sense. And it's not overly verbose. That personally has been my
biggest, uh, benefit that I've actually had with with AI started with ChatGPT. Now Claude is my
coach. And so that has been that has been actually very helpful for me personally. From a team
perspective. I think we use we use AI in a lot of things. Uh, I start I use it to help me with
my starting trouble. So I don't, I, I don't ever stare at a blank screen anymore. So it's sort of
like first grab, first draft. Exactly what you said. Give me thought starters. Um, that's what I use AI,
uh, a lot for. Um, and then I also use it a lot to do, uh, analytical work. So the hard
part there was to get the basics right, all my data in one place, the taxonomy, right, training it
with business context. But now it really is, like you said, my thought partner, when I think through
strategy and things like, what is my ideal customer? What markets should I think about next,
what new sales place should I be running? Um, and then figuring out, okay, look at past data. Look at
the upcoming pipeline. Does this, you know? Would this play work? What should I avoid? Things like
that. Um, but ultimately, it's like when I. If I don't think of AI as a magic
button, I think that's probably where, uh, if you start thinking about AI as a magic button, that is
where expectations won't match reality. Folks who are using it successfully in my mind, are treating
it like a very capable collaborator. Um, someone told me I don't remember who. Somebody at
Bloomberg told me that if you are a good manager, you're probably going to be really good with AI.
So you still have to brief, give context, help with Judgment Train, then review the stuff that it
creates, then give feedback. It's all the same thing. So you're a good manager. You're probably
going to be really good with AI. I wholeheartedly agree to everything you said. I still consider AI
my high school intern. That requires a whole lot of hand-holding and, uh, shaping
and coaching and mentoring. Um, I love that you brought in the individual personal component of
AI, and this is not a plug because I was an employee. But when I first heard of Grammarly in
the freemium model in 2015, I didn't need it because of ESL. I needed it because I needed a
second set of eyes. And when I joined, and that was AI well before, uh, you know, OpenAI ChatGPT,
everything kind of came to fruition. But when I did join, everyone I told that
were ESL like, it's the most important investment I make every single year, because it helps me make
sure I present myself professionally. And I don't care who you are unless you truly are
bilingual, fluently, natively. Like there are going to be certain cues that you just can't pick up
and that is not a problem. If anything, it's just like, congrats, you know, more than one language and
like most of us heathens in America. Just kidding. But, um, I say that with the positive intent of
that is how AI should be your supporting component. It doesn't have to be explicitly
building things for you. If it is assisting you as a human to do your work better. I think that is
the most important thing. And to your point, I don't see AI as actually replacing humans and
particularly marketers. I think the person who knows how to use AI knows how to manage to your
point. AI will replace folks who don't, and so don't be allergic to AI. But also continue to
be pretty cynical because there's a lot of question marks. All right. So we talked about a lot
of stuff. And I do love when when we talk when we get into these things and we talk about, you know,
it does get a little personal about how it's helping us. And I feel very strongly about how it
helps women. And, you know, just as we navigate all of our careers and it's it's a it's a hard time,
like we're all feeling it. We're all feeling like, oh, we wake up and one day I'm like, I know, I know
the newest model. I've played around with it. And then you wake up the next day, I'm like, ah, shoot,
I'm behind again. So like, that's something that I know we all feel. So for the email marketer who is
listening to this. Um, they're very good at their jobs. They care about doing it well. Um, but now
they're staring at a tool stack that doesn't connect. Uh, there are segments that they don't
fully trust and campaigns are taking longer. And then they hear all of this thing about the AI can
magically fix everything for you. Uh, which we know is not true. Um, so now, as you're thinking about
data foundations, AI, autonomy, like what? It's it's overwhelming. They know things are broken. Their
bosses are telling them, here is the magic, you know, solution to everything. And that is
overwhelming. What? Where where should they start? What would your advice be? Yeah, it's it's very
tricky. And I think everyone is facing it in some way, shape or form. And we're not even including
the additional components of overwhelm, which are marketing budgets are decreasing and AI budgets
are increasing. And so I actually really like converting that, as in if we're investing in
AI, great. If we do the foundations which support the AI, we can make this work. I
find the real expertise here is asking questions. I consider my whole job and existence is
I'm that little kid who says why? And I never stopped. And I'm a professional question asker. And
that level of curiosity, no matter what level you're at, if you just ask why? Why is this data
not matching? And then you come to find out, oh, there's a latency between my data warehouse and
this. Why is it set for 48 hours or once a month? Why isn't it set every six hours? Or why is it not
a real time trigger? Because I want to be able to send my password reset immediately. As long as you
keep asking why to find the core route of something, any of it solvable. Does that mean it's
easy? There's no easy way out of any of these details, but becoming almost the like advocate of
your data, of your segments, and finding those cross-functional partners along the way. No matter
the size or scale of your your team, you're always going to learn more to be able to build more. And
the only reason why I've ever been successful in any role, internal or as a consultant, is I
meet everyone, which is a bit much like my, for example, and my most recent in-house role. My
first three weeks I met with 50 people, every single person in some way, shape or form. Mind you,
at the time the company was 300 people, so like it wasn't like it was a huge company. But I met with
every potential stakeholder because if you start learning how to connect the dots and
figuring out what actually informs what, what is the dependency here, what could be a blockage here?
It will unlock so much more. Of course. Overgeneralization. Don't take it completely as
truth, but the beauty of that is everything's interconnected. And thus, if you're already
prepared and know all the different players across that map, you can work things out. You can
figure out the fastest connections. Um, and I really kind of think of us as there's that
specific, um, bacteria that, like, could find the most efficient routes to things, and that's how we
should be building our highways, our subways, our infrastructure instead of, you know, using math and
modeling it actually know nature knows what it's doing and trust your instincts in the way you
think, because it actually will inform the best outcomes. But do your homework, do the
research, befriend the partners, but also figure out the whys. And if you figure that out,
AI will be possible. But if you don't have that AI is lipstick on something? It might not even be a
pig. It's just. It just will be. You know, a beautiful little makeover. Without any substance
and without substance. You can't actually move product. You can't actually sell. You can't
actually get out to market in a way that is going to be impactful. And so, um, once you have that
feedback loop and those tactics in place, you're going to be unstoppable. And no matter what your
role is and what company you're at. But those are some just foundational components that I see
again and again. So start with curiosity. Yeah, I, I love that I think that's the the right note to
end on because, uh, whether it's email marketing or just marketing in general, the opportunity right
now is exciting. But when you really come down to it, the I mean, the tools are smarter, the data is
more connected. AI is reducing a ton of the, uh, the bottlenecks that we used to face. But when it
comes down to it, it's the most human thing. It's like what my five year old keeps telling me. It's
like, why? Why? Why? Why? So why did we lose that? Why do we lose it? Why are we
talking? Why are we taught not to continue actively asking? Yeah. And granted,
this this gets a little bit more philosophical, but that isn't, I think, the existential crisis
we're in. Like, why is this tacked on with the term AI? Does that change the outcome? And so if we
say, I want to, you know, I want AI to do x, y, and Z, say, all right, if we take AI out of it, is that
even still possible? And granted, this is a huge challenge, especially if your leadership
has a directive from your board saying you have to do this, you have to do that. And AI is becoming
a part of OKRs. People are literally being not judged. It's not even the right word, but they're
being evaluated based off of how much AI or how many tokens and credits and leaderboards they're
doing. And there's only so much we can do to disincentivize that approach. But at the same time,
there's ways to leverage it to your benefit. If your AI if your company has gone all in great,
that means all of your company information is in one place. Use that as your thought partner. It
knows the company better than you do. And so really embracing with cynicism but also
curiosity will lead the way. That makes a lot of sense. Ask the why. Ask the why am I doing it? Yes,
all things with AI, but am I getting value out of it? It's just, you know, don't plug in agents in AI
for the sake of doing it. I mean, I know we all love privacy. Please don't. But I mean, that's
exactly what we believe, what boomers do. It's always value over volume. So asking the right
questions, keeping that curiosity alive. Love that. Thank you so much, Jacqueline. And thank you so
much for all of you. To all of you for joining us for reaches, marketers and marketers. Until next
time. Thanks. Thank you.