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From the subtleties of typography to the emotional impact of color, and the way everyday objects influence our lives, our guests share their unique perspectives on the power of design. Through candid interviews, we’ll get a closer look at the challenges they’ve faced, the breakthroughs they’ve had, and how design is not just about aesthetics, but about problem-solving, communication, and making an impact.
Join host Rae, as Type Speaks aims to inspire, inform, and showcase the voices behind the visuals.
This podcast is supported by WEGL 91.1 FM, Auburn University’s radio station. weglfm.com
00:00:03 [Speaker 1]
From Bauhaus to Batman, design has influenced the world in ways sometimes we can't see.
00:00:08 [Speaker 1]
Type Speaks explores not just the work, but the stories behind the work.
00:00:12 [Speaker 1]
I'm Ray.
00:00:12 [Speaker 2]
And I'm Emiko.
00:00:13 [Speaker 2]
And we are design students with an interest in exploring the importance of design in our ever changing world.
00:00:19 [Speaker 2]
Join us in conversations with creative.
00:00:20 [Speaker 2]
Help us uncover how design speaks to each and every one of us.
00:00:28 [Speaker 1]
Hello.
00:00:29 [Speaker 1]
Hello.
00:00:29 [Speaker 1]
And welcome back into Type Speaks.
00:00:31 [Speaker 1]
This episode is now our thirteenth episode, so we're fully into our teenage years.
00:00:36 [Speaker 1]
Thirteenth can also be considered an unlucky number.
00:00:38 [Speaker 1]
But today, I'm joined with Will Dove, Auburn alumni from the graphic design program.
00:00:43 [Speaker 1]
And since 2016, he has run an independent studio where he explores the intersections of art, film, and music through image making.
00:00:49 [Speaker 1]
His design and creative direction have supported clients such as PepsiCo, the Golden State Warriors, and the Washington Post.
00:00:55 [Speaker 1]
Did that all sound good and right?
00:00:57 [Speaker 3]
Oops.
00:00:57 [Speaker 3]
Sorry.
00:00:58 [Speaker 3]
Yes.
00:00:58 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:00:58 [Speaker 3]
That's that's good.
00:00:59 [Speaker 3]
I'm I'm I assume you, like, edit.
00:01:01 [Speaker 1]
I do edit.
00:01:02 [Speaker 1]
That's why I do edit.
00:01:03 [Speaker 1]
That's why I was, like, pausing so I could edit some stuff out.
00:01:08 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:01:08 [Speaker 3]
That's the art the art of the podcast.
00:01:10 [Speaker 3]
Sometimes I hear it, and they're all so eloquent the whole time.
00:01:12 [Speaker 3]
I'm like, this doesn't I don't believe it.
00:01:14 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:01:14 [Speaker 3]
It's too good.
00:01:16 [Speaker 3]
Too good to be true.
00:01:17 [Speaker 1]
I know.
00:01:17 [Speaker 1]
It's it's a it's a I was interviewing Jarrett Fuller, and he was like, it's almost like you're designing it.
00:01:24 [Speaker 3]
Oh, okay.
00:01:25 [Speaker 3]
Clever.
00:01:25 [Speaker 1]
I was like, yeah.
00:01:26 [Speaker 1]
I'm definitely designing this podcast and not just editing out your mistakes.
00:01:30 [Speaker 1]
So the first thing I ask everyone is, what was your journey like getting into graphic design and even at graphic design at Auburn?
00:01:37 [Speaker 3]
It was convoluted.
00:01:38 [Speaker 3]
I didn't know what graphic design was when I started at Auburn, actually.
00:01:42 [Speaker 3]
I grew up drawing.
00:01:43 [Speaker 3]
Just drawing from the age of, I don't know when.
00:01:46 [Speaker 3]
My mom says I was doodling with sticks in the sand Mhmm.
00:01:50 [Speaker 3]
When I was probably two or three years old.
00:01:52 [Speaker 3]
So I was just always drawing things inspired by movies and action figures and things like that, comic books.
00:01:57 [Speaker 3]
And then I got to Auburn on a swimming scholarship.
00:02:00 [Speaker 3]
Swimming pretty much occupied my entire youth and art and design well, design wasn't even a factor, but art was a sort of backseat for me, backseat interest.
00:02:10 [Speaker 3]
And then, at Auburn, you know, I had to in order to maintain eligibility, I had to pick some major.
00:02:15 [Speaker 3]
I couldn't just swim my way through college.
00:02:18 [Speaker 3]
So, one of the older swim team members who was in the design program took me on a walk through Big In, which was our design studio at the time.
00:02:27 [Speaker 3]
And I saw gig posters on the wall and album art and logos, and I said, Oh, that's graphic design.
00:02:33 [Speaker 3]
I I actually really like that.
00:02:34 [Speaker 3]
That's, like, right in my wheelhouse.
00:02:36 [Speaker 3]
So, it was a pretty easy choice to elect that major.
00:02:39 [Speaker 3]
And then as soon as I got in the program, I just I loved it.
00:02:42 [Speaker 3]
You know, I loved the the professors were great.
00:02:44 [Speaker 3]
The atmosphere was good.
00:02:45 [Speaker 3]
Being around sort of like minded art and creative influenced peers was was fantastic, and that's that's it.
00:02:53 [Speaker 3]
That's the nexus.
00:02:54 [Speaker 1]
I find it interesting because at least in my time at Auburn, I have not been in a class with a single athlete, except for one.
00:03:01 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:03:02 [Speaker 1]
Except for one Yeah.
00:03:03 [Speaker 1]
On our wheelchair basketball team.
00:03:04 [Speaker 1]
It's kinda crazy to hear that there's two swimmercents on the graphic design program.
00:03:08 [Speaker 3]
There were two in my cohort, actually, which was pretty rare.
00:03:12 [Speaker 3]
There was a soccer player named Addison Ragsdale, who's a a friend.
00:03:16 [Speaker 3]
But it it's extremely difficult to juggle because Auburn's program is so rigorous Mhmm.
00:03:21 [Speaker 3]
That it did collide with my swim team, obligations, and my coaches hated the design staff.
00:03:29 [Speaker 3]
And I think some of my professors were a little resentful of, their influence on me on the swim team as well.
00:03:35 [Speaker 3]
Luckily, I started design late, so I only had to sort of suffer through that for maybe three semester at that.
00:03:40 [Speaker 3]
And then my eligibility was finished on the swim team, and I had spent a fifth year finishing my degree, and just went all in, completely leaned into graphic design.
00:03:50 [Speaker 3]
So, yeah, it's a it was a tricky thing, but it wasn't it was, like, two years where I really, really had to grind, and then it was easy.
00:03:58 [Speaker 3]
When you
00:03:58 [Speaker 1]
first said that, I was like, I would wouldn't know how to juggle that.
00:04:02 [Speaker 3]
Everything I've done in my life since being on the Auburn swim team is is easy by comparison.
00:04:06 [Speaker 1]
Don't you have to wake up at, like, 6AM?
00:04:09 [Speaker 3]
Earlier than that.
00:04:10 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:04:11 [Speaker 3]
Workouts started at five usually for for the distance group, which I was a part of, maybe, like, five to 07:30, I I wanna say, or 05:30 to 07:30, depending on the time of year.
00:04:20 [Speaker 3]
That was three days a week.
00:04:21 [Speaker 3]
And it wasn't just waking up.
00:04:22 [Speaker 3]
Waking up is kind of the easy part.
00:04:24 [Speaker 3]
It's it's like getting these impossible asks and sets from coaches and and delivering, you know, under pressure.
00:04:31 [Speaker 3]
That was the hard part.
00:04:32 [Speaker 3]
By comparison, sitting in
00:04:34 [Speaker 2]
a chair and clicking a mouse and moving anchor points around, it's not so bad.
00:04:38 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:04:39 [Speaker 1]
I again, doing radio and in design school, also I can imagine.
00:04:44 [Speaker 3]
There's a floor everyone's floor and ceiling are different, I guess, is what I say.
00:04:47 [Speaker 3]
And if you're putting a 100% commitment behind any task, then it's gonna be difficult.
00:04:53 [Speaker 1]
You've talked about at least we met for the second time in New York where you talked to my class about, like, going independent and working independently.
00:05:02 [Speaker 1]
And I kinda wanna talk to you about that because I've talked to, obviously, other Yeah.
00:05:05 [Speaker 1]
People who do, like, independent work.
00:05:07 [Speaker 1]
I think at least for students, one of the most interesting things to look forward to.
00:05:12 [Speaker 3]
Or it's very
00:05:13 [Speaker 1]
aspirational to be, like, to fully freelance and fully independent.
00:05:17 [Speaker 1]
I wanna ask, when was that decision made where you were like, I can go freelance.
00:05:20 [Speaker 1]
I can do this.
00:05:21 [Speaker 3]
It I did it at a time when it wasn't it wasn't, that popular or glamorous.
00:05:26 [Speaker 3]
And as a student at Auburn, it wasn't even a consideration of mine to to go freelance.
00:05:30 [Speaker 3]
I mean, I guess maybe I would have thought that it was a possibility, but it wouldn't have been an ambition.
00:05:37 [Speaker 3]
I was like, I wanna work for the highest, you know, cloudiest studio or or agency that I can possibly find for the biggest clients and operate at the top of the field.
00:05:46 [Speaker 3]
Maybe five years into my career in 2016, I was sort of on a a path to do that, and I was unfulfilled and and feeling some burnout from, just long hours and not from design at all, but from work culture, which turns out didn't really fit my, my ambitions and my nature.
00:06:10 [Speaker 3]
So in 2016, I had always been freelancing ever since even college.
00:06:14 [Speaker 3]
I was I was doing little freelance projects for a case of beer, $100 my way for a friend's logo.
00:06:22 [Speaker 3]
And I kept that moonlight practice in momentum throughout the early days of my professional career.
00:06:28 [Speaker 3]
Then in 2016, it just sort of hit a fever pitch.
00:06:32 [Speaker 3]
I was working a full time agency job in Washington, DC, and then picking up logo and logo type design in Washington, DC, and then picking up logo and logo type design projects after hours.
00:06:40 [Speaker 3]
And then it got to the point where I was sort of sneaking those projects into work and finding downtime thirty minutes here or there where I could complete things, sketches, or send an email or write an invoice or a proposal.
00:06:52 [Speaker 3]
And so I decided, look, if I just with this job, then I can do this all the time Mhmm.
00:06:57 [Speaker 3]
And maximize the efficiency, and I think it might work.
00:07:00 [Speaker 3]
So that was that was when it happened.
00:07:02 [Speaker 3]
I I was listening to a couple of the episodes before, and I think, you were talking to Josh Karnley.
00:07:09 [Speaker 3]
He graduated a few years after me from Auburn as well, and and it seemed like we had a similar experience, and I I suspect that's the case for most freelancers is that that it's just sort of this slow of, moonlight projects that's one day you wake up, and that's all you have time to do.
00:07:26 [Speaker 3]
So
00:07:28 [Speaker 1]
You mentioned something earlier in your class that wasn't, like, an aspiration, which is interesting to me because now at least, like, in my class, that is a huge aspirational thing.
00:07:39 [Speaker 1]
Was that just not a popular, I guess, career path?
00:07:42 [Speaker 3]
It wasn't.
00:07:43 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:07:43 [Speaker 3]
It wasn't.
00:07:44 [Speaker 3]
I'm I'm curious why that is.
00:07:46 [Speaker 3]
I, you know, I have no evidence to back this up, but I was in college in 2008 when the 2000 hit.
00:07:53 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:07:53 [Speaker 3]
And it just destroyed all industries, you know, creative and otherwise.
00:07:58 [Speaker 3]
And I know that designers that graduated that who were friends in the in the program that graduated just a couple years before me were suffering.
00:08:06 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:08:07 [Speaker 3]
And maybe that maybe it wasn't as popular during my time for that very reason that it just wasn't ability and and, balanced job, you know, balanced career.
00:08:29 [Speaker 3]
So I I guess if I had to go back and diagnose, that would be why.
00:08:33 [Speaker 3]
It just also wasn't that popular yet.
00:08:35 [Speaker 3]
You know, remote work wasn't wasn't popular, really didn't take off until COVID.
00:08:40 [Speaker 3]
So the idea that you can just get things done at home and and take care of yourself and turn things in on time without someone leaning over your shoulder, it was kinda foreign to everybody.
00:08:50 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:08:50 [Speaker 1]
So you've worked, obviously, corporate design firms and jobs and then also now freelance.
00:08:55 [Speaker 1]
How do you now, like, being an independent, collaborate with others not being in the same studio or the same kind of space?
00:09:03 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:09:03 [Speaker 3]
You asking that question, illuminably why freelance has become so much more popular, which is the tools.
00:09:10 [Speaker 3]
There are things like Miro today and Figma and Zoom that were not available, you know, ten plus years ago, and that is is what makes it easy.
00:09:18 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:09:18 [Speaker 3]
Because I hardly ever worked on-site, you know, but at any given moment, I can open up a Zoom chat and talk with my CD or AD, we can share screens and go over mood boards, we can even work live, they can just kind of follow me in Figma, as I execute design.
00:09:35 [Speaker 3]
So I think that's kind of that's how I do it.
00:09:37 [Speaker 3]
It's how we sort of become the industry standard is to use some browser based design platform or to use streaming to, share work in real time with each other.
00:09:47 [Speaker 3]
But that's also probably why freelance has become, you know, such a popular career path.
00:09:52 [Speaker 3]
The main
00:09:52 [Speaker 1]
thing with freelance is, like, you have to work with so many people.
00:09:55 [Speaker 1]
And now we have, like, 20,000 different online based collaborative mood board platforms.
00:10:02 [Speaker 1]
A lot of students, especially, like, now haven't really worked with a lot of bigger bigger brands.
00:10:09 [Speaker 1]
A lot I know work with, like, the college that a random college they get a job for for, like, to be a marketing intern or something like that or a smaller company.
00:10:16 [Speaker 1]
So kind of the idea of working with bigger clients is very intimidating.
00:10:20 [Speaker 1]
How do you manage, like, working with these huge clients and not being intimidated by the fact that you are working as, like, a contract employee?
00:10:29 [Speaker 1]
Makes any sense.
00:10:30 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:10:30 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:10:31 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:10:31 [Speaker 3]
It does.
00:10:32 [Speaker 3]
I think the intimidation probably comes a little bit from the unknown.
00:10:36 [Speaker 3]
But when you get in there, you find out that these teams are actually very well organized, and they're not asking the world from you.
00:10:44 [Speaker 3]
It can be almost as intimidating to work for a small client that expects a lot of responsibilities.
00:10:51 [Speaker 3]
And some of the bigger clients that I work for have you know, there'll be multiple project managers on the on the assignment.
00:10:58 [Speaker 3]
There will be ADs, CDs, junior designers that I can delegate to, other senior designers and so forth that that will, pick up Slack where I've left off or we can collaborate.
00:11:09 [Speaker 3]
So, I'd say by now, most big companies kinda know what they're doing, and they know how to to utilize their resources.
00:11:17 [Speaker 3]
So it's I say that just to sort of assuage that any fear young designers might have.
00:11:24 [Speaker 3]
I still understand that there's some trepidation just having the pressure of delivering for a big client.
00:11:30 [Speaker 3]
Like, that that just never goes away, but I think that also yields good work.
00:11:34 [Speaker 3]
So I wouldn't shy away from it.
00:11:36 [Speaker 3]
But, you know, these when you when you bring when a big client brings you on, there's also a bigger support staff.
00:11:42 [Speaker 3]
There's a bigger system.
00:11:43 [Speaker 3]
There's a big safety net to to guide, the work you're creating.
00:11:48 [Speaker 3]
So, yeah, that's my experience is that it's it's not as bad as you would think.
00:11:51 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:11:52 [Speaker 3]
And then, you know, at the same time, it's it's fun.
00:11:55 [Speaker 3]
Like, isn't that what every designer wants is is to sort of level up and and work for these sort of household names?
00:12:01 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:12:02 [Speaker 3]
So so at some point, you just have to rise up to it.
00:12:05 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:12:05 [Speaker 1]
And I just said why they shouldn't be afraid, but I am gonna ask, what are some of the challenges working with these names independently?
00:12:14 [Speaker 3]
I would say the the challenge is probably your self conscious.
00:12:18 [Speaker 3]
Yeah?
00:12:19 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:12:19 [Speaker 3]
And and your own sort of fears of, you know, call it imposter syndrome or whatever you wanna call it, but just delivering to a client with high expectations.
00:12:30 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:12:30 [Speaker 3]
I'd say that's that's the the the biggest challenge.
00:12:33 [Speaker 3]
But, you know, all the clients that I work with that I share in my CV, I wouldn't share my collaboration with them if I didn't love the process and sort of believe in in, their trust in me.
00:12:46 [Speaker 3]
Certainly not logistical.
00:12:48 [Speaker 3]
It's if anything, it's just a matter of getting over your own your own fear.
00:12:54 [Speaker 1]
Talking with students going through, like, getting jobs and, you know, taking clients is a lot of the times a lot of younger designers get burned.
00:13:02 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:13:02 [Speaker 1]
They get burned for many different reasons.
00:13:04 [Speaker 1]
Do you have any I'm kinda moving away from bigger brands to, like, some smaller ones you've worked with.
00:13:08 [Speaker 1]
What are some red flags that you kind of have seen with clients?
00:13:13 [Speaker 3]
If it's if it's not a referral, like, I think that I shared this when I talked to you and the other students when you guys came up to New York, but, probably over 80% of my work and more than 80% of my income for sure comes from referral.
00:13:29 [Speaker 1]
And
00:13:31 [Speaker 3]
that's a major green flag.
00:13:33 [Speaker 3]
If it's just kind of a shot in the dark and they don't reference work that I've already done or they don't, you know, email me by my name or they reach out through a sort of a weird channel, you know, like reaching out through social media to me is is a little bit unprofessional.
00:13:47 [Speaker 3]
I I know that there's just some amazing artists to get their or, designers to get their work that way.
00:13:53 [Speaker 3]
If you don't have the time and the the sort of effort to go through an email channel or, you know, something a little bit more professional, that's gonna send me a red flag.
00:14:03 [Speaker 3]
But also if it's if it's just not like if they don't sound lighthearted and complimentary and they're not referencing me or my specific work, then I'm like, well, you know, do you why are you hiring me?
00:14:13 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:14:14 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:14:14 [Speaker 3]
I'm always curious about how people find me to begin with.
00:14:17 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:14:18 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:14:18 [Speaker 3]
Not just just out of my own vanity, you could say, but but also, like, this is my business, and I wanna know what can what I can improve.
00:14:27 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:14:27 [Speaker 3]
Like, where my visibility can be enhanced.
00:14:31 [Speaker 3]
So, yeah, if if they don't seem to have ever even looked at my work, then that's a major red flag.
00:14:36 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:14:36 [Speaker 3]
What what did Meidi say on that one?
00:14:38 [Speaker 3]
I I vaguely remember.
00:14:40 [Speaker 3]
I mean, like, some of it's pretty easy to spot.
00:14:43 [Speaker 3]
It's like you you can tell if it's a bot, right, or just a or a spam.
00:14:49 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:14:49 [Speaker 3]
AI email or spam or they miss misspelled your name or something like that.
00:14:53 [Speaker 3]
You know?
00:14:56 [Speaker 3]
Or anytime they're like, yeah.
00:14:57 [Speaker 3]
We've, we've considered Fiverr, but we're just reaching out to a few freelancers to see what our options are.
00:15:02 [Speaker 3]
It's like, yeah.
00:15:03 [Speaker 3]
You're not in the same ballpark.
00:15:05 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:15:05 [Speaker 1]
I don't think the I think the price range is slightly different for a Fiverr and then a freelance.
00:15:11 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:15:12 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:15:12 [Speaker 3]
So I've never had a problem fighting over responsibilities or arguing about creative choices.
00:15:19 [Speaker 3]
It's pretty much, you know, just whatever I think looks best goes, and then the client accepts it or they kill it.
00:15:26 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:15:27 [Speaker 1]
When you were working, like, both in studio and then also on freelance, were you thinking about wanting to go fully independent while working on those projects, or was it more just chance opportunity of when you were getting more freelance work than studio work?
00:15:40 [Speaker 3]
I I wasn't.
00:15:41 [Speaker 3]
I I wasn't for the first three or four years of my career.
00:15:45 [Speaker 3]
I was just doing it to make a little extra money.
00:15:48 [Speaker 3]
And, also, you know, sometimes I was getting unsatisfying projects at work, and then a cool logo design or a friend's album cover or a flyer would come my way.
00:15:58 [Speaker 3]
And I would just say, I need something to stimulate the creativity.
00:16:04 [Speaker 3]
So it honestly wasn't, it was kind of negative motivation that spurred my Mhmm.
00:16:12 [Speaker 3]
My, my, beginning in freelance, which was I was more tired of my job than I was inspired to start working independently.
00:16:22 [Speaker 3]
That sounds lazy, I guess, but I I was just kind of over the the work culture at my my gig at the time, and I thought I I could do things a lot more efficiently and sort of revive my passion for this industry.
00:16:38 [Speaker 3]
Just get to do it my way.
00:16:40 [Speaker 1]
No.
00:16:40 [Speaker 1]
I think that's almost reasonable, like a better reason.
00:16:44 [Speaker 1]
And when you're saying that, I was like, you almost needed to do it so you wouldn't just lose all the the juice.
00:16:50 [Speaker 3]
I had to.
00:16:51 [Speaker 3]
I mean, I I threatened quitting design to my friends so many times, and they were like, shut up.
00:16:58 [Speaker 2]
And I was like, hey.
00:16:58 [Speaker 3]
I hate this.
00:16:59 [Speaker 3]
I'm never gonna do this again.
00:17:00 [Speaker 3]
And and and here I am, whatever, fifteen years later.
00:17:04 [Speaker 1]
I think I've had that same conversation with my friends just being a student.
00:17:08 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:17:09 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:17:09 [Speaker 3]
Hesitate to give this advice because it sounds a little dangerous, but, like, just making the step and saying it's this or nothing.
00:17:16 [Speaker 3]
You know?
00:17:17 [Speaker 3]
Like, it's I'll I'll succeed independently, or I'm just not cut out for this career and giving myself no option, but success Mhmm.
00:17:25 [Speaker 3]
Is the only thing that worked for me.
00:17:27 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:17:27 [Speaker 3]
So take that with a grain of salt, please.
00:17:30 [Speaker 3]
I don't wanna ruin anyone else's career out there, but it, it worked for me.
00:17:35 [Speaker 1]
Was it kind of like the the almost capitalistic drive in those companies to, like, keep keep going keep going super fast and getting those turned out?
00:17:43 [Speaker 1]
Was that the gears of that, was that kind of what was so tiring about it, or was it just the mon
00:17:47 [Speaker 3]
Absolutely.
00:17:48 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:17:49 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:17:49 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:17:50 [Speaker 3]
Absolutely.
00:17:51 [Speaker 3]
And I love the people I worked with, and I actually continued to contract for that for that agency after I quit.
00:17:59 [Speaker 3]
But, you know, you you have no agency, no creative control in a larger company like that.
00:18:06 [Speaker 3]
This was maybe like a 100 person company.
00:18:09 [Speaker 3]
So I just got thrown onto projects and tugged around and did a lot of things that I didn't wanna do, and I still do things that I don't wanna do.
00:18:16 [Speaker 3]
At least I have some control over whether I take it or not and when I can come and go, and that's enough for me.
00:18:24 [Speaker 3]
But to be at the mercy, completely at the mercy of a CD or an owner, usually it's the owners that are just booking project after project after project and forcing everyone to work their asses off.
00:18:37 [Speaker 3]
It just wasn't for me.
00:18:38 [Speaker 3]
So some people thrive in that.
00:18:41 [Speaker 3]
I still work with agencies very, because I kind of have to in New York to make a living.
00:18:49 [Speaker 3]
And it can be a jolt.
00:18:51 [Speaker 3]
It can be, like, a really, really fun challenge.
00:18:55 [Speaker 3]
And every once in a while when I do that, I'll come across an an agency vet, as I like to call them.
00:19:01 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:19:01 [Speaker 3]
You know, somebody who's, like, 50 that's been just grinding this out since college and just project after project after project after client and traveling the world.
00:19:11 [Speaker 3]
And, I mean, if you're built that way, more power to I learned I learned five years into my career that wasn't for me.
00:19:20 [Speaker 1]
I kinda wanna swing back to you talked about how you get most of your clients from referrals.
00:19:25 [Speaker 1]
Obviously, that builds up over time just by being in the industry, like, just working as a designer.
00:19:31 [Speaker 1]
But how are, like, some ways that you have almost promoted yourself?
00:19:35 [Speaker 1]
For me, that's one of the most awkward things to do is to promote your own design and your own work.
00:19:43 [Speaker 1]
I think a lot of students think that way as well or not.
00:19:47 [Speaker 1]
I mean but, like
00:19:49 [Speaker 3]
No.
00:19:49 [Speaker 3]
No.
00:19:49 [Speaker 3]
What were some
00:19:50 [Speaker 1]
ways you put yourself out there?
00:19:52 [Speaker 3]
I know.
00:19:53 [Speaker 3]
It it it feels a little sleazy, but you, you know, that's what we're here to do.
00:19:56 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:19:58 [Speaker 3]
For me, like, I I don't go really heavy into it.
00:20:01 [Speaker 3]
I never have.
00:20:02 [Speaker 3]
I've never done paid advertisements.
00:20:05 [Speaker 3]
I I don't really pitch.
00:20:07 [Speaker 3]
I pretty much just post things on Instagram in an earnest way that I think people appreciate.
00:20:14 [Speaker 3]
And if you know, for a long time, people didn't pay any attention because my work sucked, and then my work got a little bit better and
00:20:20 [Speaker 2]
a little bit better.
00:20:21 [Speaker 2]
And then people were like, hey.
00:20:23 [Speaker 2]
That's that's kinda cool.
00:20:24 [Speaker 3]
That I guess that's a key way.
00:20:26 [Speaker 3]
But but, you know, to go back to the referral thing, for more of my work comes from referral, and those referrals come by way of personal relationships.
00:20:35 [Speaker 3]
And when I get these referrals, they're not they're not people that, you know, liked an Instagram post and said, hey.
00:20:40 [Speaker 3]
You should hire so and so.
00:20:42 [Speaker 3]
These are people that I know, people I've, you know, visit, have dinner with.
00:20:46 [Speaker 3]
Whenever I'm visiting a a different city around The States, I always try to reach out to a designer that I admire or follow and beat them up for a coffee or a drink.
00:20:56 [Speaker 3]
I just got back from a month in Europe and was doing that everywhere I stopped.
00:21:00 [Speaker 3]
Like, I don't even know if I like you, but will you come get a coffee and chop it up on design with me for a little while?
00:21:06 [Speaker 3]
And that's I think that's how I've built the clientele and the reputation over the years is just hanging out with people.
00:21:13 [Speaker 3]
New York is also an amazing place to do that, and I think it's been huge for my career to be up here, because you can throw a rock and hit a designer in Brooklyn.
00:21:25 [Speaker 3]
And so I just I get to talk design to people all the time and, you know, they have we build a relationship, pass my name to so and so, so and so says, Hey, I need a type designer, and then it's off to the races.
00:21:38 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:21:38 [Speaker 3]
So I'd say, you know, like, be professional, maintain a maintain a good looking website.
00:21:46 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:21:46 [Speaker 3]
Like, people are always gonna look at that, and that's always gonna what's up?
00:21:51 [Speaker 1]
I was you said to maintain a good looking website as I do not have one.
00:21:58 [Speaker 1]
You
00:21:58 [Speaker 3]
know, it doesn't have to be a web it doesn't have to maintain maintain, like, a a nice professional presentation some.
00:22:03 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:22:04 [Speaker 3]
There's plenty of studios out there that have just yeah.
00:22:07 [Speaker 3]
I've never
00:22:07 [Speaker 1]
heard of her.
00:22:10 [Speaker 3]
You know what?
00:22:10 [Speaker 3]
I mean, there's I know some, like, very, very high level designers here in the city that just have a PDF that they pass around.
00:22:17 [Speaker 3]
You know?
00:22:18 [Speaker 3]
Because they don't there's no upkeep.
00:22:20 [Speaker 3]
There's no maintenance.
00:22:21 [Speaker 3]
There's no, expenditure.
00:22:24 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:22:25 [Speaker 3]
There's no financing or anything.
00:22:27 [Speaker 3]
You just, here's my best work the way I want people to see it, and they send out a PDF.
00:22:33 [Speaker 3]
So if you can afford to do that, like, if cool enough and desirable enough to do that, like, that's an option.
00:22:38 [Speaker 3]
Or or even if it's just Instagram, but, you know, it's it's not like a, sort of a messy presentation of your work as long as it's succinct and a CD can look at it in a few minutes and get the gist of what you do.
00:22:52 [Speaker 3]
I think that's important.
00:22:55 [Speaker 3]
But I think the most important thing still is just reaching out to people and being a member of the community.
00:23:01 [Speaker 3]
That's how I get all my work in New York is just by knowing CDs and ADs in the city and under the gun at their crazy full time jobs and thinking, well, what freelancer can we call today to jump in on this?
00:23:14 [Speaker 3]
Will, I just had coffee with them last week.
00:23:16 [Speaker 3]
You know?
00:23:17 [Speaker 3]
So
00:23:17 [Speaker 1]
I've at least noticed.
00:23:19 [Speaker 1]
I don't know if this was kind of the idea when you were in school.
00:23:23 [Speaker 1]
A lot of students now don't really understand how important it is to network with people.
00:23:30 [Speaker 1]
They almost feel as if their work will speak for itself sometimes when sometimes your work can be the greatest out there, but if you don't know anyone to look at it, what is the what's the point sometimes?
00:23:40 [Speaker 3]
I think you're spot on, and I think also, it can it it's easy to appreciate your own work because you've seen the the process behind it, and you know what problems it solves and what questions it answers.
00:23:53 [Speaker 3]
But somebody that's just scanning your website based on a job application or a referral doesn't know that, and they're not gonna make you know, sweeping decisions about their project and your personality.
00:24:09 [Speaker 3]
It's on a few images or some slides in a deck.
00:24:13 [Speaker 3]
So I do think it is kind of crucial to, like, for them to know you.
00:24:20 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:24:21 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:24:22 [Speaker 3]
Know a little bit about you.
00:24:23 [Speaker 3]
So I don't know.
00:24:24 [Speaker 3]
Does that answer the question?
00:24:25 [Speaker 1]
No.
00:24:25 [Speaker 1]
It it did.
00:24:26 [Speaker 1]
It makes sense.
00:24:27 [Speaker 1]
At least now, most people think of networking as LinkedIn.
00:24:31 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:24:32 [Speaker 1]
And that wasn't a thing in 2011.
00:24:34 [Speaker 1]
I don't think.
00:24:34 [Speaker 1]
Unless I got No.
00:24:36 [Speaker 3]
No.
00:24:36 [Speaker 3]
No.
00:24:36 [Speaker 3]
No.
00:24:36 [Speaker 3]
No.
00:24:36 [Speaker 3]
No.
00:24:37 [Speaker 2]
I mean, if it was, I wasn't, I wasn't privy to it.
00:24:41 [Speaker 2]
It wasn't very professional
00:24:42 [Speaker 3]
in my early professional career.
00:24:44 [Speaker 3]
So maybe it was, I just wasn't involved.
00:24:46 [Speaker 3]
I was, I was surfing in North Carolina.
00:24:49 [Speaker 3]
And
00:24:49 [Speaker 1]
That sounds more fun than Yeah.
00:24:51 [Speaker 1]
Having hitting LinkedIn right now.
00:24:55 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:24:55 [Speaker 1]
You know, when I was a when I was a sophomore and a freshman, I was like, I don't have to use LinkedIn.
00:25:00 [Speaker 1]
I'm a designer.
00:25:01 [Speaker 1]
Like, I have a portfolio website, and everyone will be fine.
00:25:04 [Speaker 1]
But I do have to use LinkedIn, unfortunately.
00:25:07 [Speaker 3]
I yeah.
00:25:09 [Speaker 3]
You know what?
00:25:09 [Speaker 3]
I I hate to hate on it.
00:25:12 [Speaker 3]
Actually, I hate to hate on it because it it is probably the most productive social media, platform for me.
00:25:20 [Speaker 3]
I think maybe Instagram is a is like a good place for people to find my work, but I actually get, like, billable work and, like, well, you know, productive clients out of LinkedIn connections.
00:25:32 [Speaker 3]
I would still say it pales in comparison to the to the, projects that I get and the work that I get out of, you know, personal referral and personal relationships.
00:25:41 [Speaker 3]
You know, you still have to play the game.
00:25:43 [Speaker 3]
It's it's I I understand the plight of the young designer and the student designer right now, and I I can, like, hear your questions, but it's hard for me to answer them because I feel like it, go through the same Mhmm.
00:25:56 [Speaker 3]
You know, pathways and gauntlet that you all have to go through right now.
00:26:00 [Speaker 3]
It was sort of a different game when I entered in 02/1011.
00:26:05 [Speaker 1]
It's a little insane how many places you can post the same thing.
00:26:11 [Speaker 3]
I know.
00:26:11 [Speaker 3]
I know.
00:26:12 [Speaker 3]
There are isn't there some kind of, like, bot that'll just do that all for you?
00:26:15 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:26:15 [Speaker 3]
Like, maybe, I don't know.
00:26:17 [Speaker 1]
If there is, I don't use it.
00:26:19 [Speaker 1]
Because
00:26:19 [Speaker 3]
I Yeah.
00:26:20 [Speaker 1]
I individually have to post on everything.
00:26:22 [Speaker 1]
It is interesting because I guess I'm coming in and I'm like, oh, everyone has to then and do Instagram and do other sites I'm trying to think of that I can't think of right now and update their website and update, oh, Behance and do all of this.
00:26:36 [Speaker 1]
Like,
00:26:36 [Speaker 3]
we're pushed
00:26:37 [Speaker 1]
to put ourselves in so many places in, like, the same way.
00:26:41 [Speaker 1]
I had genuinely forgotten that, like, you didn't have to
00:26:44 [Speaker 3]
do that.
00:26:45 [Speaker 1]
Or, like, when I talked to older designers, they didn't have to do that.
00:26:48 [Speaker 1]
Now I'm thinking about 20 other different questions because I'm like, how, just in general of, like, how did you even put your work out there if if that wasn't something?
00:26:57 [Speaker 3]
I know.
00:26:58 [Speaker 3]
I was like, I'm a a bit of a dinosaur.
00:27:00 [Speaker 3]
I feel like I was the last of a certain type of generate the sort of the print generation.
00:27:05 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:27:05 [Speaker 3]
And that's how I was schooled at Auburn, was with a print focus and a print mentality when it came to job applications.
00:27:12 [Speaker 3]
So I had a, like, sort of a clamshell portfolio with everything printed on really nice stock, all of my best images, a nice printed version of my resume, a couple of leave behinds.
00:27:24 [Speaker 3]
And I actually the first time that I moved to after I graduated, I just walked around the studios and just walked in and and would say, like, can may I speak to the owner, please?
00:27:35 [Speaker 3]
Which you would they would get shot if you did that now.
00:27:37 [Speaker 1]
I If
00:27:38 [Speaker 3]
you can't just walk in.
00:27:39 [Speaker 1]
It's Like,
00:27:40 [Speaker 3]
who the hell are you?
00:27:41 [Speaker 1]
It's kind of crazy.
00:27:43 [Speaker 1]
Every single job tip is wrong now.
00:27:48 [Speaker 3]
Almost sometimes.
00:27:48 [Speaker 3]
Do they still say to do what I what I did?
00:27:51 [Speaker 1]
Sometimes.
00:27:52 [Speaker 3]
Okay.
00:27:52 [Speaker 3]
That's because, I mean, I feel like it would be so anachronistic and bold to do that that you might actually get the job.
00:28:00 [Speaker 1]
Hey, big I'm designer from Auburn, Alabama.
00:28:03 [Speaker 1]
Can I please have job?
00:28:05 [Speaker 1]
Here's my portfolio.
00:28:07 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:28:07 [Speaker 1]
I don't know if that works or not.
00:28:09 [Speaker 1]
That seems insane.
00:28:10 [Speaker 3]
You know, I I'm not the best person to ask because I've been independent for almost ten years now.
00:28:16 [Speaker 3]
February, it'll be be ten years.
00:28:17 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:28:19 [Speaker 3]
So I haven't been involved in that process in a while.
00:28:22 [Speaker 3]
I would say that that I feel like a cold email to the right person is probably well placed.
00:28:29 [Speaker 1]
It Right?
00:28:29 [Speaker 3]
Like, it gets it's like, you know, don't reach out to the owner or don't reach a guy who's in over his head.
00:28:34 [Speaker 3]
Reach out to a junior designer.
00:28:36 [Speaker 3]
Reach out to a project manager or, you know, just somebody at the company, anyone who has advice and a foot in the door and maybe, a little bit more relatability.
00:28:47 [Speaker 3]
You know, that that could be the answer.
00:28:49 [Speaker 3]
But, yeah, in my day, you would you would physically mail portfolios or you would just, like, walk into an office and be like, hi.
00:28:55 [Speaker 3]
I'm I'm an idiot.
00:28:57 [Speaker 3]
Please hire me.
00:28:58 [Speaker 1]
I have not seen a printed portfolio, I think, ever.
00:29:03 [Speaker 3]
You've not seen one?
00:29:04 [Speaker 1]
Or Seen one.
00:29:05 [Speaker 2]
Oh, really?
00:29:06 [Speaker 1]
I, like, was I paused because I can't think of a senior a single senior or someone I've met that has had one.
00:29:14 [Speaker 3]
We used we used to sweat over the, like, our print jobs, you know, like, our registration and the trim and the stock.
00:29:23 [Speaker 3]
Like, there was no tomorrow.
00:29:25 [Speaker 3]
It was, yeah, and then I just died, like, I don't know, three years after I graduated.
00:29:31 [Speaker 1]
It seems more cool to have a a printed one.
00:29:34 [Speaker 3]
It was it was fun of all my print work.
00:29:36 [Speaker 3]
I mean, everything I ever completed at Auburn, I printed and kept it's in a storage unit somewhere in North Carolina, and it was so much fun.
00:29:44 [Speaker 3]
You know, scopes like, especially making your own one off brochures or, one off perfect printed book that you did you bound yourself.
00:29:54 [Speaker 3]
It was so satisfying.
00:29:57 [Speaker 3]
And, yeah, I'll always keep that stuff, but people are still doing that.
00:30:00 [Speaker 3]
You know?
00:30:00 [Speaker 3]
There's there's still an appetite for craftsmanship out there in the design world.
00:30:04 [Speaker 3]
It's just, it's not a necessity like it used to be.
00:30:08 [Speaker 3]
It's it's more of a of a treat.
00:30:11 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:30:12 [Speaker 1]
It's special and and and cool.
00:30:14 [Speaker 1]
It's just not a necessity anymore, unfortunately.
00:30:18 [Speaker 1]
I don't know.
00:30:18 [Speaker 3]
Say it's a shame, but that's just how the world is.
00:30:21 [Speaker 3]
The world, you know, moves on and and technologies change.
00:30:24 [Speaker 3]
And if you don't stay up to date with it, then you're kind of out of a career unless you really double down and and just say, like, I'm the print guy or I'm the Riso guy or whatever it is.
00:30:35 [Speaker 3]
When I started my career, the, like, the nineties designers were, you know, just bemoaning the end of their era and all the technologies that they used and the software that they use had been replaced by Adobe and so on and so forth.
00:30:49 [Speaker 3]
So it's just the name of the game.
00:30:51 [Speaker 3]
It's it's part of the industry.
00:30:52 [Speaker 3]
And I find that my my, like, number one passion in graphic design, which is typography, sort of cuts through all of that because it's always just form.
00:31:02 [Speaker 3]
It's always gonna be form, and the production craft has changed hundreds of times since its inception in whatever the medieval ages.
00:31:14 [Speaker 3]
There will always be a need for it as long as there's a need for communication.
00:31:17 [Speaker 3]
So, I'm willing to adopt whatever comes my way.
00:31:20 [Speaker 1]
Actually, speaking on that part, talking about type, a lot of your work features very just bold typographic high, like, logo.
00:31:26 [Speaker 1]
Would you describe that as kind of what people assume your style is?
00:31:29 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:31:29 [Speaker 3]
I think that's fair.
00:31:30 [Speaker 3]
I mean, that's what I'm putting out there into the world.
00:31:32 [Speaker 3]
It's, it's not necessarily my main, like, professional lift.
00:31:37 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:31:38 [Speaker 3]
Like, most of my income probably comes still comes from generalist design for agencies and studios, doing layout or even some web from time to time, art direction.
00:31:51 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:31:51 [Speaker 3]
Just awesome.
00:31:53 [Speaker 3]
But the work that I'm promoting at the moment is logos and logo types for the most part.
00:31:57 [Speaker 3]
And when I can fill the gaps of my larger freelance obligations with projects, it's projects that involve typography.
00:32:07 [Speaker 3]
I guess graphic design one and two are the big courses.
00:32:11 [Speaker 3]
I assume it's the curriculum is the same.
00:32:13 [Speaker 1]
Same.
00:32:14 [Speaker 3]
But at Auburn two.
00:32:15 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:32:16 [Speaker 3]
Those were sort of the branding courses.
00:32:19 [Speaker 3]
And we had, like, a kind of a nice library of fonts that we were, given to.
00:32:24 [Speaker 3]
But, you know, some sometimes I'd find something I wanted to work with and couldn't afford, so I just started drawing my own type Mhmm.
00:32:29 [Speaker 3]
And drawing my own logotypes.
00:32:31 [Speaker 3]
I was it was probably sometime around my junior or senior year that I was introduced to Herb Lubaland and designers like this, Michael Dorit, who were making their own logos and logotypes.
00:32:43 [Speaker 3]
And I was like, I wanna do that.
00:32:45 [Speaker 3]
Even if I can't afford the font, I wanna make it myself.
00:32:47 [Speaker 3]
I wanna learn how to make it myself.
00:32:50 [Speaker 3]
So it became an interest in college and it didn't become a practice until I had put in the work to, earn earn people's money and earn a reputation as as a logo type designer.
00:33:05 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:33:05 [Speaker 3]
So that was maybe, you know, four or five years in.
00:33:08 [Speaker 1]
Do you think, like, logo types are coming back into, like, main style?
00:33:12 [Speaker 3]
We were
00:33:13 [Speaker 1]
have you been in this in.
00:33:14 [Speaker 1]
Minimalist era for such a long time.
00:33:18 [Speaker 1]
And I feel like people are now fighting against that and, like, are wanting these old
00:33:22 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:33:22 [Speaker 3]
There was the what did we call it?
00:33:24 [Speaker 3]
Like, sort of the, just blandification, I guess, of the logo type for a long time.
00:33:29 [Speaker 3]
You know?
00:33:29 [Speaker 3]
Obviously, that's front and center in every designer's mind because of the Cracker Barrel fiasco that just occurred.
00:33:35 [Speaker 1]
Such a big thing down here, at least.
00:33:37 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:33:38 [Speaker 3]
I know that's I'm glad, like, that yeah.
00:33:40 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:33:40 [Speaker 3]
I'm glad that the students and and professors are sort of up to date with design news.
00:33:46 [Speaker 3]
You know, it it just wasn't really on my radar back then, but there wasn't so many resources.
00:33:51 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:33:51 [Speaker 3]
Like, there weren't so many blogs operating at the time when I was in school to to know what was happening in the design world and the ad world.
00:33:58 [Speaker 3]
So it's cool that you guys are abreast because being informed and and having an opinion is is a huge part of the battle.
00:34:08 [Speaker 1]
Hey.
00:34:09 [Speaker 1]
Thanks for listening to Timespeaks.
00:34:11 [Speaker 3]
Hope you
00:34:11 [Speaker 1]
had a good time because I sure did.
00:34:13 [Speaker 1]
But, unfortunately, the episode is over.
00:34:15 [Speaker 1]
But don't worry.
00:34:16 [Speaker 1]
You can check us out in other places.
00:34:18 [Speaker 1]
Be sure to follow the show to listen to every new episode or listen back to some old ones.
00:34:22 [Speaker 1]
Check us out on Instagram at typesmeekspod.
00:34:24 [Speaker 1]
And remember, always keep creating and always stay curious.
00:34:28 [Speaker 1]
I'll see you next time.
00:34:29 [Speaker 1]
I've been