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Released every Tuesday, the LOUNGE LIZARDS podcast helps listeners navigate the experience of finding and enjoying premium cigars (both Cuban and non-Cuban) and quality spirits. Episodes are normally around 90 minutes long and feature a variety of different topics including food, travel, life, sports and work.
The podcast features seven members: Rooster, Poobah, Gizmo, Senator, Pagoda, Grinder and Bam Bam.
This is not your typical cigar podcast. We’re a group of friends who love sharing cigars, whiskey and a good laugh.
Join us and become a card-carrying lounge lizard yourself! Email us at hello@loungelizardspod.com to join the conversation and be featured on an upcoming episode!
A special treat tonight live from Cuba with our friend Danilo Rodriguez. The Behike 54. It's a 54 ring gauge cigar, of course, by 5 and 5/8 inches. What an honor to have you sitting here with us tonight.
Danilo:The pleasure is all mine.
Gizmo:So we have, for the first time, a Behike in our hands on the podcast. We have not done this yet, and, it's coming right out of your humidor tonight. Rolled at El Laguito with no bands on it,
Rooster:with 2 years of age.
Gizmo:With 2 years of age. So this is very, very special. So thank you First for being here, and, of course, thank you for sharing these amazing cigars with us.
Danilo:1st, it's a real pleasure having, having you guys today tonight. And also, of course, thank you for the opportunity to be part of this wonderful job you are doing.
Gizmo:We're so happy to be here. Well, let's cut this thing, boys. See we're getting on the cold draw on the wrapper.
Rooster:So I noticed you did a v cut on yours.
Danilo:Yes. I usually, use v cut for all kind of cigar, even figurado ones.
Gizmo:Really?
Danilo:A cut is more, personal preference. But in my opinion, the cut the big cut is really useful when we are talking about, big ring gauge cigar. White cigars usually if you make a straight cut can be a little difficult in order to smoke them. Medium and bigger ring gauge, once you made the b cut, the cigar keep the shape of the head. So still being comfortable.
Danilo:Also, the cut is a little deeper, so the surface of contact is bigger too. So you it's a way to put it. You are, in one way, you are more in touch with your cigar. In my opinion, the flavor is even,
Rooster:So even on a smaller ring gauge, you prefer a v cut? Even for smaller. Yes.
Danilo:And pyramids. Or pyramids. Particularly in pyramids. Right.
Bam Bam:Wow. And figurados as well, you said.
Rooster:Yeah. Yeah.
Bam Bam:You know, I rarely do a v cut, but I'll try it more often.
Gizmo:I just feel like sometimes I'm taking too much. Me too. Too much out.
Rooster:Oh, yeah. Man, I don't even own a v cut v cutter.
Gizmo:So we'll have to We gotta get you one.
Rooster:Definitely get one. Yeah.
Gizmo:Alright, boys. Let's light this thing, the Bahique 54 from Cuba. Again, it's a 54 ring gauge cigar by 5 and 5 eights inches long.
Bam Bam:This is quite the cigar. Yeah.
Gizmo:Quite the cigar.
Rooster:So I had this, like, when it first was introduced about maybe 9, 10 years ago with Bam Bam
Danilo:Yep.
Rooster:And it was delicious.
Bam Bam:It was. So absolutely delicious. That was aged, wasn't it though? Had some age on
Rooster:it. No. It had a friend of mine was here in from Canada, and he had bought some backwards.
Bam Bam:It was outstanding.
Rooster:They gave me, like, 7.
Danilo:The the real challenge for Vaeke is try to keep those standard of quality. We have to be really careful about it. The expectations for our customers are really high when we are talking about the e k. The standard of quality have to be only the best of the best. Mhmm.
Danilo:Another way around, you cannot negotiate with quality because first, we are talking about a really important brand for Havana's World, for cigar world. And, of course, also, Veike got a huge limitation for production is the availability of Mediatemple leaf. Without mediotiampo, it's impossible make a baker 54 or any kind of baker. So the amount of cigar we are able to produce in 1 year depends directly from this particular kind of leaf.
Rooster:So is that what has changed that Mediatemple is not as available? But why why is that?
Danilo:I think the big problem is not just about. Wrapper is important too, and, of course, you need a combination of perfect leaf. We are talking about proper, binders, Seco, which provide smell, flavor, burrado, which provide speed of combustion, ligero, which provides strength. So every kind of leaf has to be necessarily the best of the best. No other way around.
Senator:Mhmm. Typically, with the bajiques, roughly how much of the leaf inside is medial tampo versus seco, other a lot of the other types of leaves without being too specific. I know you probably can't can't tell scientifically, but
Danilo:One leaf.
Senator:One leaf. One leaf.
Bam Bam:One leaf. Okay.
Senator:One in each cigar.
Danilo:In each cigar.
Bam Bam:That's a surprise. So boys,
Gizmo:what are you getting on the light?
Bam Bam:Dried fruit Yep. And pure Cuban twang. That salty finish, I'm getting. And the draw is outstanding.
Gizmo:I'm getting that classic kinda Cohiba, earthy thing. It's a little enriched, I think, probably by Mediatempos, but it's incredibly smooth. I think the age is certainly helping with that.
Bam Bam:No fruit at
Gizmo:all. I'm getting a little fruit.
Bam Bam:I'm getting a lot of fruit. Yeah.
Gizmo:Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I definitely get some. Danilo, what are your flavor notes when you think about the Heek K54?
Danilo:We think in a in a bake, we we use the factory way to to taste the cigars. So we are looking for very general, parameters in order to taste the cigars. 1st, most important, draw. The worst problem you can find in any cigar is a draw problem. 2nd, of course, smell, aroma is really important.
Danilo:It's the the soul of the cigar speaking. So we have to be really, really careful about the smell, and we have to be really demanding about the quality control. So smell at almost the of the cigar is really important. So this is one of the items, I think, we need to pay attention. Flavor, of course.
Danilo:If the leaf doesn't have the right kind of, process of fermentation, you will find aggressive flavor, pepper, spicy. We are not looking for that. Our final goal is try to produce a strong cigar, potent cigar, but at the same time easy to smoke. So flavor is important because flavor is the reflex of the process of fermentation. Is the pro if the process is not good, of course, the flavor will be, messy, aggressive.
Danilo:Right.
Rooster:Does every Bahiaque go through a draw machine?
Danilo:Every single cigar we make, all every single cigar we make in Lagito necessarily have to pass the draw control machine.
Rooster:Has that always been the case? For Lagito, yes.
Danilo:The machines were introduced in 22,001, I think. And, of course, from that very moment, as I said before, is unacceptable, a drop problem in our cigars. So we have to make sure no customer receive a cigar with any kind of drop problem. So we have to make sure to check a 100% of So
Rooster:we might have had some fake cigars because we had some Lancero's that had some draw issues. Once it's it's rare, but, you know, very rare with Cohibas, but more so with some other brands.
Bam Bam:He would like to file a complaint, by the way.
Danilo:Olcero is is, is a really interesting cigar. 1st, it's the most difficult cigar made under Coiba brand. We're talking about 192 millimeters length by, 38 ring gauge. You need long and thin leaf. And, also, any tiny defect is intent instantaneously magnified because the way of this particular cigar works.
Danilo:So only the best of the best. Only our best rollers are able to produce her. Right.
Rooster:Is Mediatel Tempo leaf only in the Vejica?
Danilo:Only in
Rooster:the Vejica. Never gone into any other cigar.
Danilo:Yes. I thank God for that.
Gizmo:So before we go too much farther, I wanna get into a little bit of the backstory Yeah. About you. How did you end up in you were an attorney, correct? You were in the Cuban military as an attorney, correct?
Rooster:Abogado.
Gizmo:Abogado. How did so tell us a little bit about your journey into adulthood, becoming an attorney, and how did you end up
Danilo:the Naval Gittel? What you can call, a walking mistake. I started in the military law school, And once I get the from the army, I start to work as a lawyer. And, I heard this in the Oncological Research Institute in Cuba. So in that time, in that time, you know, you have to, get in contact with, of course, patients all the time.
Danilo:And that time I was working also in the nights in a in a bar. So I spent, like, 2 years almost sleeping 2 hours a day, bartender in the night and, of course, lawyer, during the day. So imagine that crazy. So, by the end of, 2019, we heard a rumor about a virus in China. We're making a lot of damage.
Danilo:And, of course, I think of myself, okay, this is a dangerous situation. And, of course, in case of closure, quarantine, whatever, the the business, you know, restaurants, theaters, that kind of business will suffer first and more. One friend told me they were looking for a a lawyer in a cigar factory. And I say, okay. It's a perfect opportunity to start to work with something I love.
Danilo:I have been cigar smoker for 10 years now, but professionally speaking, I have been working in cigar business for 4 years. So in the beginning was opportunity to learn. I said to myself, okay. A couple of year working in a factory as a lawyer, learn a little bit about cigars. And once this virus, thing pass, I can't go out with my life and never have been more wrong.
Danilo:The cigar world is simply magic, amazing. Once you get in, it's really difficult to get out. You simply fall in love. And I got the wonderful opportunity, the director in corona, mister Osmar. The guy one day called me to his office and sent me, okay.
Danilo:You are the weirdest lawyer I ever seen. You're never in the office. What's the problem? Say, okay, sir. I I want to learn about cigars, about production.
Danilo:And the guy said to me, okay. I will put you on test 1 month in 1 of the of the workshop. If you are good enough, you stand as a boss of that particular workshop. If you don't, you have to go to the office. So we we agree on that, and a month later, I was the chief of that particular department.
Danilo:And since that point, ahead has been a wonderful journey.
Gizmo:Wow. So how long now have you been the production manager
Danilo:at In Coiba?
Gizmo:At Coiba?
Danilo:2 years and 20 days, I think.
Gizmo:So can you walk us through a a typical day for you at Elaguito? From the moment you arrive to the moment the moment you head home.
Danilo:Okay. 1st, we need to understand a cigar factory as many business, is like a living being. Even though if you think about we don't use machines for producing cigars, we got the most valuable asset for productions is the skill of our rollers. So you have to be in touch with that particular, part of the production machine. So the first thing I think everybody have to do in a factory is go to see the workers, The people who are really involved directly in production feel the bit of the factory.
Danilo:After that, okay, you check your email, whatever, any, bureaucratic thing you have to do, paperwork, whatever. And after that, 9 AM, we start with the testing. Testing is a really important part of the quality control because we randomly select cigars from production, and we taste them. A cigar can, look like really good outside, be beautiful, but you need to taste them. That's the only way you can be a 100% sure what you're making.
Danilo:So we are 11 tasters, and we try 2 cigars every single day.
Rooster:Wow. Is there a blender also on that tasting panel?
Danilo:Not necessarily because for for became taster, you have to pass several tests in order to identify the kind of sensibility you got. The first test, for example, when the first time I made the test, we were 100 aspirants. Only 19 passed.
Gizmo:Wow. So 19 out of a 100
Rooster:passed.
Gizmo:Wow. That's a high fail rate.
Danilo:Yes. The first test is using water. I give you a tiny dissolution of salt, sugar, acid, bitter, and, of course, water. They put you 10 glasses. You have to identify which is what.
Danilo:Believe me, it's hotter than suns.
Bam Bam:We should try that sometime. I'll talk
Gizmo:to you guys.
Rooster:Yeah. We'll be like, shit.
Gizmo:We'll see if we any of any of us pass.
Bam Bam:We need to do a competitive tasting among us.
Gizmo:It's perfect.
Danilo:Salt is relatively easy. Sweet, also. Acid and bitter. We'll luck with that.
Rooster:So it's different parts of your tongue that have receptors for different, like saltiness, bitterness, sweetness.
Danilo:Yes. But also and I can recommend this more because it's really important. Train your brain. Train yourself. Your sensibility, your tongue, okay, will, cap the the flavor, but you have to train yourself in order to identify them.
Danilo:Like an instrument, a guitar. Anyone can grab a guitar, Hold it. Okay? But you need to learn to understand. Your brain need your brain needs to adapt The position, the the muscle strength, the ability, the coordination is basically the same thing.
Danilo:You have to train yourself in order to identify this flavor and avoid spicy food 12 to 10 days before the test, reduce the amount of salt in your food. So you got a fresh palate.
Senator:How long did you prepare for this?
Danilo:I was really lucky. I got this quality control specialist in Corona, the first factory where I where I work. The guy basically adopt me. He he saw the interest and say, okay. You wanna be taster?
Danilo:I will train you. And if were a movie, it'll be like Karate Kid, you know, the the old guy training the the young one pretty much the same. Okay. That's the the first test, the water. The highest rate of failure is in that particular test.
Danilo:Almost 50% of the aspirants failed that particular test. After that, they when I say days, the Research Institute of Tobacco started to give us cigars with different blending. The first test is really easy because they give you one cigar using just ligero, which is a crazy strong cigar light off constantly so it's easy to identify. One cigar made only with bolato leaf, of course, combustion. So it's a crazy fast combustion cigar, but no flavor at all.
Danilo:And one cigar made only with seco, which is balanced, so it's really easy to identify. The second test, the blending, they start tomatoing closer and closer. So by this 5 test, the 5th test is really difficult. So you have to start to pay attention to details. For example, before lighting the cigar, you have to pay attention to the front of your cigar.
Danilo:The different kind of leaf got different texture, different color. The leaf, which provides strength, is darker. So if you pay attention to your cigar on front, you can appreciate the strongest cigar generally got a higher concentration of darker leaf right in the center. So the proportion of ligero is higher. Technically, that cigar supposed to be stronger.
Danilo:So tiny clues, but you have to pay attention to that.
Bam Bam:That's interesting.
Gizmo:Yeah. It's very interesting. Yeah. So when you're when you're on the tasting panel and you're you're smoking a lot of the same cigars every day on this panel. Right?
Gizmo:You're trying different cigars from the factory that are coming out of production. So what raises a red flag for you, let's say, when you smoke a Bahiki 54? What what is a recent or what's an example of something that's kind of been, woah, something's wrong here?
Danilo:1st, draw. But draw cigar, even if it's too much or not enough, you have to open it. So if you got one cigar with that kind of problem, you open the cigar and see what's the problem. Not enough leaf to mash the wrong position of the leaf, which can provide huge problems with draw. For example, once, we are talking about long filler cigars, so whole leaf.
Danilo:Okay? So the roller has to put the leaf straight. If the leaf gets screwed, plug the drawer, and that particular cigar is impossible to smoke. So that's a red flag. Once we identify a cigar, of course, the taste, and I I have to I have to tell you this before.
Danilo:The taste, we made it without knowing which roller made the cigar.
Gizmo:So it's a blind
Danilo:It's a blind test.
Gizmo:So there's no, bias of any kind.
Senator:But when you find a problem, like it's too loose to draw or it's it's too resistant
Danilo:The quality
Bam Bam:you need
Senator:to track that to the roller
Danilo:and share that control. Specialist
Rooster:Mhmm.
Danilo:Get a schedule of the numbers.
Gizmo:Right. Okay.
Danilo:They know which roller made the cigar that I'm potentially smoking. So we track the roller. Okay. And we make an extra, a wider sample of his production. So next days next day, we taste 10 cigars for that particular roller.
Gizmo:Wow. Okay. Wow. So the heat the heat is on when that happens? Yes.
Senator:The pressure
Rooster:is on.
Gizmo:It's like you're the interrogation light is right over his head.
Danilo:Nobody want that kind of attention, but is important.
Bam Bam:Of course. Yeah.
Danilo:I have
Bam Bam:a question regarding the roller. Do you provide continuous or ongoing training?
Danilo:Yes. Of course. It's important.
Bam Bam:For quality purposes, but also from the point of view of the tech the technicality of rolling a cigar to make sure it's consistent. You have and what kind of continued training would that be?
Danilo:For example, if we got rollers start to present problems, quality problems, we rec recalify them. So they have to pass, a curse, a training again. So, we check that by the end of the training if the guy improve or don't. For example, the the average age in our factory is really high.
Gizmo:So we got because people have been there for a long time.
Danilo:Yes.
Senator:Would you say the average age at Lagito is highest among the factories?
Danilo:Yes. We are talking about some rollers in Lagito have been working there for 30 years.
Bam Bam:That's incredible. Wow.
Danilo:Even some rollers in La Guito are rollers from 3rd generation.
Gizmo:Wow.
Danilo:The youngest one. Some of the youngest rollers we got have been rolled for 3 generations now.
Rooster:Do they start off at Lagido, or do they come from La Corona? Can you get directly into Lagido as a
Danilo:We have received rollers from other factories, and we had some really good experience. But in general terms, we rather trying our own rollers in the factory.
Gizmo:Got it. So after the tasting panel, what going on throughout your day? So you've done the tasting panel, you've made your comments, and any corrections that need to be made, what's next for you?
Danilo:Check every one of the stage of production, every workshop. If you got a problem with, the stripping room when we select the wrapper
Gizmo:You're saying where they strip the, they strip the leaves.
Danilo:You have to wait until the leaf are in the terminal, which is the classification by color. So in that point, it's really difficult to fix any kind of problem. So it's better identify the problems on time. This is why we have to check every single day. It's like a farm.
Danilo:There's no free days in a farm. There's no free days in Lagito. Same principle. Every step is important. For example, if we use a tobacco leaf, 2 leaf from the same plant, from the same level, same cut.
Danilo:1, you put it in the right way so you make the proper fermentation process, and the other one, you just let it dry. You find 2 different 2 different results by the end of the process. One leaf is just a dry leaf, and the other one will provide the whole kind of experience you expect from a tobacco leaf. So it's not just about the quality of the leaf. It's also about respecting the process.
Danilo:Every little detail matter.
Gizmo:So, boys, we're coming into, I guess, the end of the 1st 3rd here on the Bahia 54. We're sitting with Danilo Rodriguez. Special treat here in Havana. And this cigar, boys, is awesome.
Bam Bam:This cigar is awful.
Gizmo:This is an excellent cigar.
Bam Bam:Absolutely. What are
Gizmo:you guys getting?
Bam Bam:For me, it's a continued dry fruit, but there's it's a it's a richer, fuller flavor, and the earth. And for me, barnyard, a bit of barnyard, which I love.
Senator:For me, I like it. I feel like there's a little bit of, kinda sweet and savory that you get
Bam Bam:in the cigar. That's exactly right. Which I really enjoy.
Rooster:Yeah. It's it's complex, yes, yet balanced.
Bam Bam:But it's so easy to smoke.
Gizmo:It's so easy to smoke. I I can understand why he smokes 3 or 5 or 10 of these a day. I totally get it.
Bam Bam:Yeah. I'd like to I'd
Danilo:like to eventually know
Bam Bam:how many cigars you smoke during work. We'll get there.
Danilo:On day 5.
Bam Bam:5 a day now.
Danilo:Regular day. But day, 8.
Bam Bam:You know, you could apply for lizard, membership.
Danilo:And good day, maybe 10.
Gizmo:Oh. Really? Wow. Yeah.
Bam Bam:Are you serious?
Danilo:If you are happy, you'll smoke better.
Rooster:This is
Bam Bam:how you are.
Gizmo:So when you, when you're tasting them, when you're smoking 5 to 8 cigars a day, are you taking them all the way down into the the last third to, you know, to the end of the cigar? Or are you able to sense problems as you were just discussing with the tasting panel? Are you able to sense that in the 1st, 3rd, second, 3rd, that you don't even need to get down to the end?
Danilo:When we made the the testing, we usually smoked them until the 1st, 3rd.
Bam Bam:In
Danilo:that point, you are already able to identify the whole cigar speech, if if may I use that expression?
Gizmo:Sure.
Danilo:Because every cigar is a product which have been handmade. So every cigar is different than the rest, unique, their own weight. So the first third will provide much of the information that you need to qualify that cigar. If you have any kind of doubt, you can, of course, still smoke smoking. But in general terms, once you have smoked the first, 3rd, already, you got all the information that you need.
Gizmo:Got it. So let's talk about tobacco procurement. This has always been I've always been very curious about this, and even when we've spoken in the past. How, where, when, how does the process for you of procuring tobacco for elaguito, How does this process happen? Where does it happen?
Gizmo:When? How often? Run us through it because we are so curious about this.
Danilo:1st, we got only one farming season for cigars. Some producers make a little later, little sooner, but usually only one farming season in the year.
Senator:What month is that?
Danilo:Which, in general, start with in November until March. Some producers are bold and they start to farm in later so they harvest later too. But in regular terms, those are the month that the the farming process take place. And first, producers, of course, put the the seeds on the on the land, the plants grow, and they made the first many author many authorities about cigar, identified the dry process as the first fermentation, which I personally agree with that. So once the the leaf are ready, they make a classification.
Danilo:So for that, we got these, places in their countryside. Spanish name, Escojida. So choosing or selecting. And, of course, in this place, they identify the leaf by size and by cut. We were talking before about the different kind of leaf.
Danilo:Bolado, for example, grows at the bottom part of the plant and we start harvesting from bottom to top. So that is the first leaf we cut. Okay? So after that, SECO, and finally Ligero, and of course, Mediatempos 20 days later. But Mediatempos is more a process than a kind of leaf because, technically speaking, ligero and mediotempo, both kind of leaf, are the crown of the plant.
Danilo:Does every plant produce ligero and probably not mediator? Potentially speaking, yes. Every plant produced Ligero because every plant got crowned, so top leaf. Mediatempos, as I was saying before, is more a process. 1st, we need to understand for my premium avanos, lawn filler cigars, The leaf have to came necessarily from Gueltaba.
Danilo:That's the origin denomination for premium avanos cigar. Okay. Well, Tabajo is a tiny region in the west of the island. And while Tabajo got one of the more hostile environments for farming, this is why the plants have to fight for their survival. So the plants grows under a huge amounts of stress.
Danilo:Stress so the first result, the plant is doesn't obtain all the nutrients in it from the soil. So need to develop bigger leaf in order to cut more sunlight. So it kept still living. Okay? As a result of the whole metabolic process to transform UV light in metabolic, energy, the plants have to develop a lot of metabolic process.
Danilo:So the concentration of nicotine, tar and carbon monoxide is higher. So difficult terrain, in general terms, provide tasty cigars.
Gizmo:So the the harder the plan has to work, the more stressed they are, the better the tobacco is.
Danilo:In our experience, yes. For example, if we think about wine, some producer are farming higher and higher in the mountains. I'm thinking about Argentina, for example. 2,000 meters high because that kind of place to farm are really hostile. The soil is not good.
Danilo:The oxygen, the saturation of oxygen in the air is lower, so the plant have to fight back. As a result, you got different outcomes for the plant that if you put it in a really easy place to develop as the people.
Senator:I'm very curious. What what makes a good grow a good tobacco growing season? And I ask this because you mentioned wine. So in wine, in certain regions, a really, really hot summer that year helps produce an incredibly bold wine that they're looking to make. So I'm curious what kind of conditions make a good or a better tobacco growing season?
Danilo:Maybe this comes on, a little crazy, but if you pay attentions to the producers in the countryside, hurricanes. The year after a hurricane year is a wonderful year for tobacco farming.
Gizmo:Interesting. Wow.
Rooster:So that would be this year then now?
Bam Bam:Mhmm. And why is that?
Danilo:I think one of the reason is the rain. And of course, the amount of, organic material that the hurricane left behind Kill the grass, kill any kind of plant who eventually, fall to the ground, leave even. So those particular elements eventually rotten. So goes to the to the land and the result is even better.
Rooster:But the hurricane also destroyed the crop. Yeah. The year
Danilo:of the hurricane is bad. The year
Bam Bam:after is excellent. After
Danilo:is good.
Gizmo:So how so how does the tobacco that we're discussing, how does it end up at Elaguito in the hands of of the rollers? How does that process work?
Danilo:Okay. The the producers in the field eventually sell their their crops to a government company who make the fermentation process even. So you got consistency. If every producer made their own way of fermentation, it's really difficult be consistent about blending cigars because you got a 100 different fermentation process. So this company named, La Vega is a government owned company, make the whole process of fermentation even.
Danilo:Once they are ready, they, we buy the leaf from them.
Rooster:Is it also true that in Guelto, the soil, the pH is very neutral? Like they say in Nicaragua, it's very acidic, so the fermentation process is longer as opposed to Cuban tobacco where the soil is very neutral. Nicaragua and Cuba got a really different soil.
Danilo:Even, for example, the soil in Nicaragua is more fertile. In Nicaragua, you can find volcanoes. So volcanoes launch to the atmosphere tons and tons of element that are really good for for soil, but we don't find it here in Cuba. So the chemical composition of the soil is different, so the environment which the plants develop is different too. For example, if you made this experiment, maybe proof help to prove the point.
Danilo:If you put a Cuban seed, Cuban tobacco seed in Nicaragua, you will find a plant with 18 to 20 leaf. If we put the same seed in Gueltabaju, 14 to 16 leaf. This is because the soil is different. In our case, the soil is less fertile. So the plants cannot grow same rate.
Rooster:Right. To a normal listener, I think they would think that the soil, if it's fertile, you would produce a better plant. It's the opposite. Saying it's the opposite. The less fertile the soil, harder the plant has to work, which produces a better product.
Danilo:Mhmm. For maybe for produce vegetables or fruits, you need to develop the plant in a fertile soil. The way we consume the tobacco is different. We consume in the leaf. So the concentration of organic components in the leaf, which is the reflect from the environment the plant is growing, okay, is what we are looking for.
Danilo:Same plant in different environments, in different soils will taste different. Even, for example, in Cuba, we got different farming areas, 17 denominations areas in Cuba. The cigar from the east of the country is quite different that cigar you can find in the west, even in the center Because they in that part of the island, we got different kind of soil, different weather. Not too different, but enough to establish a difference about the flavor profile. This is why the cigars the plants, sorry, the tobacco we use for Coiba necessarily have to came from Boltebajo.
Danilo:No other way around.
Rooster:It's the most hit by hurricanes too. Right? Mhmm. That region?
Danilo:Like a lot of damage.
Gizmo:So when that government company that handles the fermentation, when they feel that the tobacco is ready to be sold to Tobacco. Yeah. So sold to the factory. How does that process work? Do you just get a phone call or
Danilo:No. We quality control technicians. So they made an inspection for for the leaf, and they decide which leaf are good enough. The of course, that depend of the kind of cigar we are making in that moment. For example, we cannot buy bigger leaf, big leaf for small cigars.
Danilo:It's pointless. So size, quality, complexion, the proportion. So the different kind of leaf we're gonna buy is established by the cigars we are attending to to make in that particular point. In regular terms, we both, we buy the leaf monthly.
Bam Bam:Is this is it a single facility or are there multiple fermentation facilities?
Danilo:No. We always buy from there, from the same.
Bam Bam:So and does every factory purchase from the same facility or does Cohiba have, let's call it a special fermentation facility that they buy from?
Danilo:No. Same process. Fermentation until this point is the same for every brand.
Gizmo:Wow. And do you get do you get the the first kind
Danilo:of Choice.
Gizmo:Look over or the first choice of tobacco being that you're with Cohiba and La Quinta, and it's the premium Habanos product?
Danilo:Yeah. But we have to be quick about it because the other guys are
Gizmo:the 1st
Danilo:one, the better label.
Rooster:Sure.
Bam Bam:Sure. See, this is interesting because we as a we had always thought that you had a preference or or, priority. So it's interesting to hear this.
Danilo:The the easy part is the our factory is one of the smallest factory in the country, so we don't need too much.
Gizmo:Got it.
Danilo:It's quality over quantity. Yes. Every single day of the year.
Gizmo:So on the fermentation process, obviously we talked about to this point everything is the same across all tobacco for all brands, all cigars. And then there's an additional process that takes place for all Cohiba Cigars or some?
Danilo:All Cohiba Cigars.
Gizmo:What can you tell us about that process, and or where does it where does that process take place?
Danilo:So, we make an extra fermentation process. And for that, we use a really important key for pro for COIVA production barrels. In the factory, we use white oak barrels for fermentation, but those barrels got a long trip before fall in our hands. First, they are used United States because we are talking about American white oak. Used for bourbon.
Danilo:After that, once you Americans are done with those barrels
Bam Bam:We're never done.
Danilo:Usually, those goes to England, particularly, Scotland. Scotland. Yeah. Yes. Where they are used for Scotch Yep.
Danilo:13, 15 years approximately. And after that, those barrels are by Cuban companies who actually made rum. Okay? And we use it around 20 years for rum. So very simple.
Danilo:By the time we receive the barrels, those get already incarnate, the spirit, the smell.
Bam Bam:Over 40 years of time.
Danilo:Approximately
Gizmo:40 years. That's amazing. That's amazing. So when you're using those barrels, where is that happening for all of the tobacco at La Guito? Where is that happening?
Danilo:In a small room.
Gizmo:It's all done in that small room
Danilo:Oh, it's done in
Gizmo:that room. Everything's done in
Danilo:that room. Yes. We have
Bam Bam:to talk to you.
Gizmo:How can that be?
Bam Bam:It's no bigger than where we're sitting right now. It's fascinating.
Danilo:Again, quality over quantity.
Bam Bam:Correct.
Danilo:We have to check, supervise constantly the the level of fermentation. And, of course, approximately, we are talking about 20, 21 days. But maybe doesn't sound like big deal, but think about it. If you put a cigar besides any contaminant agent as a perfume, for example, cigar will absorb, will acquire the smell, the taste from the perfume. If you apply some drop of cognac bourbon in your humidor sponge, eventually, your cigar acquire the smell and the taste from it.
Danilo:So we are talking about the same principle. The tobacco plant is highly hydro hydroscopic, so exchange with the environment. So we put it 21 days inside those barrels, dry, of course. Sure. Maybe we can make experiment with the full barrel.
Senator:So how many of these barrels are there that you use to for the fermentation process?
Danilo:We got 28 barrels.
Gizmo:Okay. 28 barrels. Wow.
Bam Bam:And how long do you use the particular barrels? How how often do you change them?
Danilo:We try to do not change that change them because
Bam Bam:You keep them for perpetuity.
Danilo:In our experience, between more you use it, you get better results.
Gizmo:Got it. So, you know, Elaguito doesn't just make Cohiba, we know that.
Rooster:Mhmm.
Gizmo:Make Trinidad, a lot of Partagas, a lot of other things there. Does all the tobacco for all of those marcas also go through that additional fermentation process, or is that only for Cohiba or Trinidad or both?
Danilo:Every cigar we make
Gizmo:At La Guito.
Danilo:Regardless the the brand, we make this particular fermentation process. Interesting. Every single leaf of tobacco we we buy for production, we use this particular fermentation process for
Rooster:for that.
Gizmo:That's fascinating. Fascinating.
Rooster:Well, that's why the cigars that come out of Legido always taste
Gizmo:better. Always taste good.
Bam Bam:So those box codes should be pursued.
Gizmo:Yeah. And they are.
Bam Bam:Trying to tell me that.
Rooster:They are. They know that.
Gizmo:So boys, we're about halfway through here on the Bahik 54 from Danilo's Humanore Very Kindly, sitting in Havana, Cuba. This cigar is fantastic.
Bam Bam:The retrohale is incredible. So I have a question. Do you retrohale your your cigars as well? How often do you retrohale?
Danilo:Often, I can. So we are talking about maybe every 3 or 5 path.
Bam Bam:Wow. You're retrohaling?
Danilo:Yeah.
Bam Bam:And is that critical? In my opinion, it is, but is it critical to you to capture the notes of the cigar?
Danilo:Exactly. Yes. It's really helpful and give you the the deeper notes.
Bam Bam:Of course. Agreed.
Gizmo:The cigar has definitely picked
Rooster:up in strength a little bit also.
Senator:Yeah. I agree with I agree with Rooster. As I think I'm about halfway through, and it's picked up in strength, but the delivery is still so smooth
Bam Bam:And delicious.
Senator:It's it's amazing. So you were saying this was aged in your humidor 2 years?
Danilo:No. Not in my humidor. In La Guito.
Gizmo:In La Guito.
Senator:Ah, I see. I see. And that's the whole Bahique line? 2 years?
Rooster:No. No. Just these cigars we have on hand. Yeah.
Danilo:Just those. As I said before, personal poison.
Gizmo:So when we're smoking a cigar with Mediate tempo in this, right, and and not a lot of us you know, we haven't smoked a lot of Bahikas.
Danilo:We can't afford them.
Gizmo:Yeah. What kind of, what kind of specific flavor notes or or sensation should we be picking up from mediatempo? As you were saying, training your brain. What what is a a listener who picks up a bejike, what should they be looking for from mediotempo? What what is the difference there?
Senator:Or or even how would you know what would be the telltale sign that there is Mediatemple in a cigar that you're smoking?
Danilo:Okay. That's a really interesting question. 1st, the experience, the the sensations, the flavors you feel from a cigar when you're smoking got a lot to do about your personal experience. For example, I I really into hunt. I really appreciate my family's tradition.
Danilo:So when we are talking about the notes, the flavors we identify from a cigar, your personal experience got a lot to do Because, for example, myself, I I came from a family of hunters, so we hunt. And for me, that first smell you you receive when you start to ignite your cigar, For me, it smell like a freshly, shell. Just shredded. It's that gunpowder smell. Oh, wow.
Danilo:Oh, wow. Wow. If you don't have that experience, you will compare with your personal experience as well. So everybody got their own specific interpretation the about the cigars. Okay.
Danilo:But if we are talking about Mediatel Tempo and Vallejo, in my opinion, what we are looking for is a really strong experience about flavor, about complexity, but never an aggressive cigar, so easy to smoke. So we are looking for is that kind of, smoky flavor, deep, but at the same time, you don't have to fight against the cigar. Some cigars are designed are meant to be strong, aggressive. For example, I'm thinking about Parthagas. Parthagas is one of the is the most strongest brand we got in Cuba.
Danilo:Okay? And Partagas is intended to be a strong experience from the very first contact with the cigar. Even with the ignited, just cut it and get a puff, dry puff that will give you a little advance, a little, information about you are about to to try once you start to smoke them.
Rooster:Is there more Ligero in the particles? Yes.
Danilo:Of course. The proportion is really high.
Gizmo:When it comes to production of let's just specifically talk about Coheba first. Obviously, you know, when we spoke, I guess it was a year ago, you were talking about the intention of hopefully, hopefully, at some point, bringing all Cohiba production into Lagito
Danilo:Mhmm.
Gizmo:And not having to use other factories to augment how many cigars you're able to roll at La Gigito. Obviously I'm sure demand is making that very difficult. So how does that work if let's say you need more Cohiba Robustos than are able to be made at La Guito? Are you contracting Corona or other provincial factories to make those cigars? How does that work?
Danilo:No. In this point, we are trying to produce all Coiba in Lagito's facility because you can supervise the quality control in another factories, but you cannot leave anything to to the chance. And, of course, as producers, we got a big responsibility to our customers, our aficionado. We are trying to make every single coiva in Lagueto, now in another factories.
Bam Bam:So how is it that Illegito is also producing Trinidad and some part of Gasfutola?
Danilo:Yes.
Bam Bam:And will you phase that out to accommodate and create more capacity for more Cohiba production?
Danilo:Yes. Of course.
Bam Bam:So that eventually will happen?
Danilo:That's happening now.
Bam Bam:Oh, okay. Interesting.
Danilo:The last for the for the last 3 years, we are trying to make exclusively exclusively, sorry, Coiba in our facilities. Sometimes, for example, we can get involved in productions for cigars from a different factory different brands. Sorry. For example, if we are talking about the 5th anniversary of Trinidad, which was a really exclusive cigar, really demanding about the quality, the construction of the cigar itself, we make those in La Gato, but this is important. Trinidad brand also burned in La Gato's factory.
Danilo:Trinidad and Coiba, both brands
Gizmo:They were born.
Danilo:Came originally from Laguito.
Bam Bam:They were born there. Understood. But eventually you'll phase out Trinidad.
Danilo:Right now Trinidad is made in Pinaldo, Rio.
Gizmo:Yep. So what is the process when you're developing a new release? A new cigar, how does that process work?
Danilo:That's, that's a long process.
Gizmo:Long process?
Danilo:Yes. At least 1 year. Wow. 1st, the customers, in general terms, launched the proposal. We want 1 cigar with these characteristics, long, thick, thinner, whatever.
Danilo:Of course, they make a study about the market. Even if this market is a really particular area. We are talking about regional productions for Middle East, Northern Africa, Asia, Europe. And, of course, they make a general request about the characteristics of the cigar. After that, the research of the the institute Research Institute of of Tobacco start to develop several prototypes, blendings about the profile looking for the profile a bonus want to achieve.
Danilo:Okay? For that, we made at least they made, sorry, at least 3, different prototypes. Sometimes even 5. Okay? And that's the point where we, the tasters, start to get involved.
Danilo:We start to try those different prototypes, and, of course, we make cuts. This one is better than the other, and we have to be agreed.
Senator:And so those prototypes are made at a special institute, not at Lagito or one of the factories?
Danilo:Yes. We made it in the factories with the requirement, the proportion, the blending I see. The research institute is looking for.
Bam Bam:If I may ask, who makes the request? Who gives you the the profile of the cigar for the particular region in Italy or Israel? Where does that come from?
Danilo:The customer in that case get in touch with Avanos and make the request.
Gizmo:Okay. So the regional distributor calls Avanos, says we want a Container cigar with a in Germany or Hunters and Franco
Danilo:I see.
Gizmo:I see. The United Kingdom or PCC.
Danilo:I see.
Gizmo:They'll call and say it's our 30th anniversary. Wait. We want a special cigar.
Bam Bam:That's fascinating. Yeah.
Rooster:In general, is the trend towards larger ring gauge cigars?
Danilo:Yes. Right now, yes. The fashion, if if I may use that word, the right now is over white cigars, a medium to short length. This is because about, in my opinion, the lifestyle also. Every day is more difficult find proper places to smoke.
Danilo:So the smokers are moving for intense but short time experience. If we think in the in the nineties, for example, or the eighties, even you can you can smoke even in planes. You can smoke everywhere.
Gizmo:I miss those days, Daniela. Me too. We need to bring that back.
Rooster:You weren't born there.
Gizmo:That's correct. But I can pretend. But I can pretend.
Danilo:So, in that time, the fashion was about thin long cigars. If we if you study a little bit the classic Vitollas for 20th century, for example, the regular terms was long and thinner and thinner cigars, If we compare for example, Robusto was considered a big ring gauge, 50 ring gauge. Today, Robusto is, medium to to nothing. If you compare with 60, 58, 62, in the last 20 year, we have seen pursuit for thick and short cigars instead of the classic, Vitollas.
Rooster:It's about 5 inches and then 54, 55, 60 gauge.
Gizmo:And that's happening worldwide too. That's not just the bonus. That's everywhere.
Rooster:Everywhere. That's what a customer wants.
Gizmo:Yeah, that's the trend.
Rooster:I mean, we all like a Lancero. A Launchedale is probably our favorite. Sure.
Gizmo:Dahlias. That's the
Rooster:Dahlias is our favorite.
Gizmo:That's the single 5 size. Right? Yeah. I think. Yeah.
Danilo:But for example, the 1st decade of, 20th century, double o figurado was the tendency.
Bam Bam:Wow. That's a monstrosity of a cigar.
Danilo:Oh, yeah. Really difficult to make Sure. An amazing cigar to smoke. Yeah. The curve of evolution is magic.
Danilo:Wonderful.
Rooster:Yeah. So Bam's favorite is a double Toro.
Bam Bam:Correct. It's an imaginary cigar.
Gizmo:So what while we're on different, sizes of cigars, as we said, some of our favorites are the Dahlias, like Lonsdale, you know, obviously, the Lancero, the Guita number 1. What are some of your favorite cigars? You you know, call it the brand name.
Bam Bam:Outside of Cohiba.
Gizmo:Outside of Cohiba.
Danilo:Outside of Cohiba, I have to say I have to say Belicosofino from Bolivar. Great cigar. Cigar.
Senator:Great cigar.
Bam Bam:Most of us like that cigar.
Senator:Love that cigar. Not all
Bam Bam:of us.
Rooster:Most of us.
Gizmo:Correct. Senator. I've turned my I've turned the page. He's turned the page. I've turned the page.
Danilo:Double Figurado, I have to say, Distinguido from guava.
Gizmo:Yes. We reviewed that. We did that cigar. That performed very well.
Bam Bam:It did.
Senator:That was a revelation. We had not had much of Guava or I had not at least, but we really enjoyed that cigar.
Bam Bam:Yeah. It's different. It's unusual.
Danilo:Kva is a brand who was intended to be for originally for the British market.
Bam Bam:The entire market?
Danilo:Was intended for the British market at the beginning. Eventually, was accepted. And in 2 years after the the launching, all Europe was smoking.
Gizmo:So any other cigars that you love while we're on the topic?
Danilo:Maybe we find this a little crazy. 1st cigar in the morning, Monte Carlo from Por La Reina.
Gizmo:Oh, yes. Por
Bam Bam:La Reina Monte Carlo.
Gizmo:Very small
Rooster:and thin. Skinny.
Gizmo:We actually we actually have that coming up on the podcast I've
Bam Bam:never had that.
Gizmo:In the next few weeks. You have
Rooster:a 33 ring gauge?
Danilo:I think 40 ring gauge. Really?
Bam Bam:Yes. Have you had the Petit Corona from a
Danilo:Petit Corona. Of course. Yeah.
Bam Bam:It's excellent.
Gizmo:Great cigar.
Danilo:But in that case, I have to say Singa 2.
Gizmo:Uh-huh. Yes. Of course. What I was gonna ask aside from Bijike, what are the what are your favorite cigars that
Rooster:you roll at, La Gita?
Danilo:Nascale, first, Meike 54. Guilty of charges. After that, I have to say, Splendidos. Mhmm.
Gizmo:I agree with you on that.
Danilo:And sale of 5.
Gizmo:And that's that's our favorite. Yo. We do love that cigar.
Danilo:Sigla 5.
Gizmo:You know what we found we find too, especially with the Sigla 5, a lot of the cigars, and we've been talking about this a lot on the podcast, is the cigars have been smoking better young recently. Like I feel like in past years, cigars have needed more time to come into a really really delicious flavor profile, but recently, the last maybe since 2018, 2019, it seems like Cuban cigars are smoking better young. Across Fresh.
Bam Bam:Across multiple markets. Across everything. Almost.
Danilo:I think all is about quality control. How demanding you can be during the producing, production process.
Gizmo:Sure.
Danilo:For example, in the last year, we have experimented a crazy high of prices. So I think you cannot negotiate with If you are asking for more expensive, if you are making more expensive cigar, it's only logical. Your quality only goes up. So in my opinion, that's the result of quality control, not just in the factory, also in the fields.
Gizmo:Understood. I wanted to ask, how do you make production allocation decisions? And what I mean by that is, for example, there are some cigars that even regular production cigars that we'll see come up for sale once a year, and the box codes are very very closely together. They're, you know, we'll find box codes from March April only, and then again the next year. The Partagas 898, I don't think we've seen that cigar in quite some time.
Gizmo:So I'm curious about how are the production allocation decisions made in the factory?
Danilo:Two reasons for that. 1st, of course, the demand of avanos is important. And second, the time of the year. I was, explaining before, we only make 1, crops a year. So once you start the, for example, the best month for for wrapper, which is one of the thing do who limit us more the quality of the wrapper.
Danilo:We are more comfortable with the quality of the wrapper in the month of August, September, October because those are the freshest wrapper we got from the previous year, farming season. By the time you start to, consume that wrapper, the remaining wrappers doesn't have the same quality or the same size. So the quality of the wrapper describe a curve done. So we have to make a rush in order to produce the most demanding wrapper cigars in those months. This is why some productions you only find in one specific time of the year.
Bam Bam:Are those considered drier seasons or or more wet seasons?
Danilo:We are getting closer to the to the winter season so relatively dry.
Bam Bam:Okay.
Danilo:Remember we are talking about crazy Cuban weather.
Bam Bam:Correct. Yeah.
Rooster:Is the wrapper also grown under shade?
Danilo:Exclusive grows under shade. We use the the cloth over the the farms for two reasons. 1st, protect from the environment to the plant, and second, limit the amount of sunlight that the plant receive. And, of course, the plants is not receiving all the sunlight that's supposed to to be obtaining, so grows bigger leaf. So bigger wrapper.
Danilo:When we see in a factory, a wrapper maybe 16 inch long, that's a dry wrapper. When this particular leaf was green, maybe has 20 inch length.
Gizmo:Wow. Amazing.
Bam Bam:It's a massive drop.
Rooster:It's a lot of water in it, I guess that Yes. Reduces acid.
Danilo:Fermentation is now so different than is a control decomposition process. But you have to be really careful about the amount of humidity, the temperature, the mechanic damage, which also affect the leaf. Even one drop of water can create a steam in in your wrapper, and that ruined that particular leaf. So every detail is important.
Bam Bam:Are the leaves rotated in the in in the barrel? Do you just seal the barrel and leave it be? Are they adjusted during the process?
Danilo:Yes. We adjust this every day.
Bam Bam:Really? Every day?
Danilo:Every day. This is why our blender master got the responsibility to check, supervise the fermentation process.
Bam Bam:Amazing. That's something we did not know.
Gizmo:Yeah. So I have a question for you just back to production and and so you mentioned the Esplendido. So what is the difference between the Esplendido and the Esplendido Gran Reserva that's coming out? Is there a difference in blend? Is it just the age of the tobacco?
Gizmo:Is it better tobacco that's been aged longer? What changes between
Danilo:It's a really good question. 1st, if we change the blending, technically, it's not splendid anymore.
Gizmo:It's not the cigar.
Danilo:And, of course, the aging is the key. This is why, for example, when we are talking about 1 year agent, we are talking about regular production. 3 years agent is for Maduro line. In this case, when we are talking about Maduro, we're also aging the wrapper. Dark wrapper is just a secondary outcomes.
Danilo:Okay? Because Maduro is not about the wrapper. It's about the filler. The filler has to spend 3 years of fermentation too. Many customers, many aficionado, as soon as they see a dark wrapper, they say, okay, Maduro.
Danilo:Not necessarily. Dark wrapper doesn't mean Maduro. And, of course, over 3 to 5, we are talking about Reserva. 5 to 7
Gizmo:is
Danilo:around Reserva.
Gizmo:Got it.
Danilo:So the the leaf, they are being using for made the grandreserva for Splendido. They have at least 7 year fermentation. Those are crazy expensive leaves and really difficult to get. So we have to be really respectful about the process for this particular cigar.
Gizmo:So a question on Maduro. You mentioned earlier that, specifically for Cohiba, the the ethos of Cohiba is to create really smooth cigars that don't have a a punch or a bite, whatever word we wanna use. How difficult was it for Cohiba to achieve that with the Maduro line?
Danilo:With the Maduro, pretty simple. The aging is the longer way, but is a really comfortable way to rid off the aggressive flavor. So if we compare a regular Splendido with a Gran Rezavera, for example, we will appreciate same strength but different level of complexity.
Gizmo:A little richer. Yes. Interesting. So boys, we're into the last 3rd here on the Bahique 54. I am enjoying every single puff of this cigar.
Gizmo:It could just be because we're sitting here with you, Danilo, but I do think this is a pretty damn good cigar.
Bam Bam:So can I stay tonight? No. I don't wanna leave. Okay?
Danilo:Please, feel welcome.
Bam Bam:You guys can go.
Senator:So I think the final third just really picks up in richness and flavor. I was talking about how early for me, it was very kind of a balance between sweet and savory. Now it's just very savory to me, the flavor that I get out of this cigar.
Bam Bam:But still extraordinarily smooth. It is. And the retrohale continues to be delicious.
Rooster:And the aroma. Yeah. I just keep going back to this.
Bam Bam:Usually, it's difficult to retrohale a cigar that's this deep.
Rooster:How do you, like there's certain cigars, the flavor changes from the beginning to the middle and then to the end. But certain cigars, they kinda stay throughout the same. How does that come about? Tar.
Danilo:Tar? Yes. The blending, every kind of leaf got a different concentration of tar and nicotine. So the blending, in theory supposed to if you got a richer blender, a richer blending, sorry, a more strong blending, you got a higher concentration of tar in your cigar and nicotine. Okay?
Danilo:Relatively higher. Even if you consider that a big cigar got less nicotine than a regular cigarette. During production, okay, this is a little technical, The leaf got their own, organic component distributed all over the leaf. Okay. Because it's the way the circulatory system of the plant works.
Danilo:So once the leaf start to dry, it start to shrink. Okay? And those organic components travel to the leaf surface to the secondary veins and from the secondary to the central one. Eventually, we remove the central one. So we remove approximately between 80 to 85% of the nicotine.
Danilo:Matter. This is why I was telling you before relatively higher if you compare alijero leaf with a bolalo, for example. So once your cigars start to combustion, the tar is moved back to the cigar away from the heat and eventually dissolves with saliva, also the nicotine. This will provide the sensation of increasing flavor. Wow.
Danilo:That's the curve.
Bam Bam:Does the speed of smoking the cigar affect the not just performance but the flavor profile, in your opinion?
Danilo:Yes, of course. If you over smoke too too fast, you will have a different experience.
Bam Bam:Right. We've discussed that many times.
Rooster:Yeah. Yeah.
Danilo:If we are driving a car and you make the the gear twist too fast, You got a different experience when you are driving. So timing is important.
Bam Bam:Take your time.
Danilo:Yes. Let her evolve.
Rooster:What is the most aged cigar that you have had? Doesn't have to be Cohiba, just in general. Just curious.
Danilo:Bausa, 1958.
Rooster:Wow. What?
Danilo:Bausa. Tasteless.
Rooster:Yeah. Tasteless.
Danilo:I had in before smoking, I have this back and and forth because I don't want to I don't I don't was really sure about if I want to smoke a collectible item. But eventually, I say, okay, everybody's gonna die. At least make it fun. So I will die with experience, and I rather smoke them in order to learn. Even the cigar was a storage in a really good condition, proper level of humidity, temperature.
Danilo:But after 60 years, 60 66 years approximately, by the end of the day, we are talking about organic material.
Rooster:It's gonna decompose. Yeah. It's gonna just lose flavor.
Bam Bam:It's gonna oxidize.
Rooster:I've had a number of cigars that I'm blown away by, especially boxes from 20 fourteens and 20 15. Mhmm. And I don't know why, like, those cigars just smoke phenomenal.
Danilo:Yeah. That window of time is is good. It's really good. In my experience, I have to say, and this is a personal, opinion, of course, between 3 5 years. In my opinion, that's the perfect window for a smoke, a good cigar.
Danilo:3 of 5 3 to 5 year after being made. That's the sweet spot, of course, my opinion. Some people rather vintage cigar 20, 50, 15 years old. Okay. But the curve of aging got a lot to do with the blending.
Danilo:Strong cigars, we are talking about Bolivar, Partagas, San Luis Rey, Ramon Gallones, for example, those particular brands, we got a lot of literate in it. The the more complex leaf start to lose properties first. So the curve of aging is shorter if we are talking about a stronger cigar. For example, Oil Monterrey or h Upman. If you're storage for 20 years, the profile doesn't change a lot, and the cigar get more mild and perfect.
Danilo:Those cigars age just well. But if we are talking about particles, for example, that window is shorter.
Bam Bam:Shorter. Amazing. That's eye opening. Yeah. In particular, for our collections that we have at home.
Danilo:Compare, for example, a guy who a swimmer, for example, with a bodybuilder, those guys age different because they got different style of life, different style of training. Body builder age faster because all the stress, the physical stress, you know, the the training before our competition. The swimmer is more natural exercise, so it's closer that the way who our human body He
Gizmo:will age quicker.
Rooster:Yes. So am I to understand that a cigar that has morally harrow should be smoked sooner than later?
Danilo:Yes. In my opinion, yes.
Gizmo:And perfectly in that 3 to 5 year window is what you're saying Mhmm. Ideally.
Rooster:So we have all had a Saint Louis Rey from 2007, and it was delicious.
Danilo:It's a delicious smoke. But if you compare with the profile of a strength that Saint Louis Rey supposed to have, Maybe you are closer than Romeo and Juliet profile of strength than Saint Louis Because of time. For 20 years.
Gizmo:Right. Interesting.
Rooster:Even, Bolivar Belicosofino from 2011, somebody sent me 5 cigars and it smoked amazing. Amazing.
Senator:This is interesting for us because I feel like a lot of conventional wisdom is that the stronger the cigar, the longer aging potential it may have. What you're saying, it's kind of the opposite that the stronger the cigar, you actually may want to enjoy earlier in that 3 to 5 year range. And the In
Danilo:my experience, if you are looking for what these strong profile brands supposed to bring you, if we are talking about content and, experience. So we are talking about deep strength, cigar is better sooner than later. Wow.
Senator:Very wild.
Gizmo:Very So he's saying that, you know, the intention of the blend, we might enjoy a cigar that's 15 years old
Bam Bam:Yeah.
Gizmo:But the intention of the blend is not what that flavor profile is giving you.
Senator:It's mellowed out so much that it's lost the strength it was intended to deliver.
Bam Bam:There could be a strategy where you want to have a milder Ramona Lona specially select as an example. You hold that for beyond that 3 to 5 year window, and you'll experience that. Wow. It's fascinating. Great advice.
Bam Bam:Great advice.
Danilo:Thank you.
Gizmo:Yeah. So you were talking before, you mentioned how a spot of water can affect a leaf. Yes. And when we met earlier in 2023 or late 22, whenever we did, we were talking a lot about authenticity and the counterfeiting that certainly Cohiba is the most counterfeited brand in the world, the experience that, we have as consumers trying to find authentic products from reputable retailers. And even all of the lines have been blurred over the last few years, especially with the price increases as you mentioned.
Gizmo:So I'm curious. Certainly, number 1, what are some measures of authenticity that you can help give a listener to know when they're smoking a real Cohiba Bijike 54 versus a fake one?
Danilo:There are several, clues I'm looking for when I want to identify a real one from a fake, if you're talking about cigars. 1st, the source is important. If you buy a cigar in any Casa del Avano, you can be sure you are buying the real deal. If you are buying cigar from a friend, of a cousin, of an uncle,
Gizmo:Yeah.
Rooster:In love with that. Or on the beach. Yeah. In Cancun.
Danilo:Please hold up, thought I have a a funny story about it. For our tentacle customer. We received, some years ago some customer from Spain who has complained about the cigar the taste of the cigar they were receiving from Avanos was wrong. So the guy suspect they were receiving fake cigars. Of course, bonus create this whole, investigation process in order to identify the problem.
Danilo:And the problem was really simple. The guy was selling those cigars in the shoreline. Basically, the guy had employees who walked to the to the sand, to the shoreline, to the hotel and open the humidor and sell cigars to the customer offer cigars to the customers. The the license for for selling cigar was right. Everything was good.
Danilo:But the problem is those cigars was was all day long in touch with the salt air from the sea. Wow. So eventually, changed.
Gizmo:Wow. So they were legitimate, but Yeah.
Bam Bam:The environment affected it. Yeah.
Gizmo:They were messed up for those.
Rooster:On twang.
Danilo:If you don't take care of your cigars, your cigars simply don't take care of you.
Gizmo:Alright. So what other measures of authenticity are are available to a customer aside from source? Obviously, that's number 1.
Danilo:Of course, it's important. Also, please pay attention to the cigar. Bans are easily falsified no matter how many security measures you you take. Eventually, the the guys who want to fake, who leave from fake from sell fake cigars will overcome. And the boxes, same.
Danilo:So what we are talking about is pay attention to the cigar. There's several clues. For example, when you hold a Cuban cigar, you need to pay attention to the wrapper. Cuban wrapper is not perfect As when you go to to the market, for example, and buy organic fruit or vegetables, those are not perfect. So those tiny imperfections, prove that your leaf, your wrapper leaf, has been fermented in the traditional way.
Danilo:If you find a perfect wrapper, no vein, no sting, perfect color, usually means non Cuba. Also, for example, when we made the selection the selection for boxing the cigar, we made it by color. Doesn't matter who roller made it. So we need to pay attention to the cap of the cigar because none roller made the cap exactly the same. It's like the signature.
Gizmo:Like a it's like a fingerprint.
Danilo:Yes.
Bam Bam:So you want to see differences in the cap? -Yes. -In the box?
Danilo:If you work enough with the same rollers eventually you can identify the roller just for looking at the cap.
Gizmo:That's amazing. That's cool. Wow.
Danilo:So when we put it in the box we put it by color. Same color, different caps. That's what we are looking for. Okay? Because that proof those cigars have been made by different people and have been selected by color.
Danilo:If you buy a box and all the heads looks alike, like if were made by a machine or the same guy, probably, you're buying fake.
Senator:My my favorite counterfeit measure, we spent some time with you at Lagito, and you had a and you said the final telltale sign if you really wanna know, you pulled out a knife Mhmm. Cut the open. I think my heart stopped when you did it.
Rooster:There was
Gizmo:a lot of pain that day to do all.
Bam Bam:It takes courage to do that. Tremendous courage.
Gizmo:He he
Danilo:can afford to do
Rooster:that. Correct.
Danilo:That was painful for for everyone in the room today. But it's important because that's the way you can see how a good cigar is supposed to be inside. Whole leaf, different color, different texture. That means those cigar have been blended. Shredded leaf, we are talking about fake cigars.
Danilo:Same kind of leaf, fake cigar. The touch, the consistency of the cigar is important too.
Gizmo:You're saying you just feel it up and down the cigar?
Danilo:Yes. But for that, maybe you have you need to be in touch with regular production. But if you you know how a factory made cigar supposed to feel in your hand. Too much leaf, the cigar the weight is, bigger, so, you know, you got a problem with that particular cigar. And, of course, empty cigars means fake.
Gizmo:So you you mentioned the bans as it, you know, obviously, that has been a big tell for a long time, namely with the UV light. So what we've heard over the last year is that Habanos has been phasing out ultraviolet technology in the bands and on and on the boxes. Do you know why that is? And then after that, are they going to be introducing any new anti counterfeiting technology?
Danilo:Yes. The next step will be ship the boxes.
Gizmo:With the Yes. With the like, there's an app. And they've done that on some Cohiba. Correct?
Danilo:Yes. We made that as a pilot test for the year of the rabbit.
Rooster:Got
Bam Bam:it. For
Danilo:the year of the rabbit. And, of course, the result until now have been good because you can identify right away, but the chip is in the box, not in the cigar.
Gizmo:The other question I have for you, we talked about this a year ago. And when we did the episode kind of recapping our conversation, we talked about the novadossas. Mhmm. Which were flooding the market counterfeit for quite some time prior to even being produced at at Legito. We're seeing now that there's more novadosos seemingly from authentic sources.
Danilo:Yes.
Gizmo:So has have you been rolling nobody's?
Danilo:Yes. Of course.
Gizmo:So there's a lot more coming out now?
Danilo:I spent the last, 4 months, the last year probably in
Rooster:overdoses.
Gizmo:Wow. So listener can sleep tight knowing that if they bought a box of overdoses from an authentic, you know, Habanos distributor, then it's a it's a real box.
Rooster:What's the size of that?
Danilo:50 ring beige by I don't remember the line.
Bam Bam:We're testing it tonight, buddy.
Gizmo:So what are some of the, the biggest challenges that you face at Legito on a day to day basis or, you know, production in general?
Danilo:Rapper. Rapper. Rapper.
Gizmo:Not enough wrapper.
Danilo:Constant worry. We had enough, but the quality is important. And we got a saying in La Grito, it's better make 10 perfect cigar instead than 100 good cigars.
Senator:And is that very specific to Cohiba? Like, because the wrapper on a Cohiba, I mean, it's pristine. You you kind of notice a difference in those wrappers than you would any really the other markets where there is more variation, it seems.
Danilo:Yes. For example, in Cuba, we use, traditional way in order to dry and ferment the leaf. We don't use any industrial process for that. So by the end of the process, we got 64 different color. 64.
Danilo:So every brand got their own specific range from those 64 colors. For example, if we are talking about Coiwa or Trinidad, we are talking about the 10 lightest color. I see. Montecristo, for example, can be a little darker. Artagas, even darker.
Danilo:Punch or Ionis, even more. And, of course, some brands allow some little defects, but those are not compatible with Coaiba.
Bam Bam:Not Coaiba standard?
Danilo:Yes.
Senator:I've always been so confused, partagus in particular, and I I do love particus, but the the d four, for instance, the variation in the wrapper color, some can be so light, some can be so dark. It's a huge range.
Danilo:D4 admitted that kind of grading. Koiva doesn't doesn't admit it admit it so.
Bam Bam:Right. Don't get him started on d fours. We'll be here all night. Okay.
Danilo:It's a beautiful cigar. It is.
Gizmo:So do you have challenge acquiring new talent, to roll cigars?
Danilo:It's not difficult find, people who want to learn how to roll, But none every person got the skills, the discipline that you need for for rolling handmade cigars. And not every roller are skilled enough to make coiva. So, constantly, we are looking for trainees for for roller. The whole process take 9 months. And we are talking maybe 3 for every 10 guys finish the training.
Gizmo:Another high failure rate. Yeah. 70% don't make it through the training.
Danilo:Yes. Wow. This doesn't means the guy the guys are not good enough to be rollers, but not good enough to be Coiba.
Bam Bam:So they could be assigned to La Corona or another factory?
Danilo:We usually when we have to let go some of the young trainees, if they prove they're worthy during the course, we make this recommendation letter for a different factory.
Senator:Oh, that's great.
Bam Bam:Got it. That's good to hear.
Danilo:Yeah. Yes. Because they'll steal.
Gizmo:They can still thrive Yes. But just not at the level of Cohiba.
Danilo:Even some guys graduate. I got this experience with a with a really young guy who worked to the factory and after 3 months, simply wasn't good enough. And we have to talk to him and explain him why he cannot continue with the training. But, we made the recommendation letter for Partagas. The guy go to Partagas, graduated, start to roll in Partagas.
Danilo:By the time he feel confident enough and acquire the level of skill, return to the factory. Right now, he's working with us.
Bam Bam:Really? That's amazing. Yeah. That's amazing.
Gizmo:That's incredible. So it's just diligence and, like you said, discipline?
Danilo:Yes. And if you are working in, for example, automobile industry, You want to work with Mercedes or Ferrari or Rolls Royce, for example. If you are into tobacco's business, into tobacco's production, you want to work for Coiba. So it's a matter of proud too. And you guys has been in the factory before.
Danilo:You can you can tell. The people who work over there simply feel proud to be part of Coiba.
Bam Bam:And you can see that as well when we're there.
Danilo:Yes. You can you can breathe out. Yeah.
Gizmo:Yeah. You can feel it.
Bam Bam:Yeah. Sure.
Gizmo:Sure. And like you said, it's a smaller facility than a lot of the others. Corona's like a that's like a machine, that's a factory. Yeah. La Guito feels more of like a
Danilo:It's like
Rooster:a family.
Gizmo:A tight knit unit.
Bam Bam:Yeah. Yeah. Smaller groups Yeah. In single rooms. Yeah.
Danilo:We know each other by names. We know each other by the problems we got at home. It's really close, the work. And this is important when you have to work with and for people. You need to understand.
Danilo:You need to be part of the group. We worry about the concerns. Be part of the of the problem and the solution.
Bam Bam:In their personal lives?
Danilo:Also.
Bam Bam:Really?
Danilo:Yes.
Gizmo:Wow. It's amazing.
Rooster:Yes. When you become a better role or if your your family life is more you're more content.
Bam Bam:Insecure. Sure.
Danilo:Even you can tell if 1 roller got problems problems at home just by looking at the the quality rate. If you got a problem with your wife, for example, your quality goes down.
Gizmo:We never have that issue. No. No.
Bam Bam:That's my problem. Life racing cars.
Rooster:So you you never tell your rollers to keep your problems at home like we do?
Danilo:It's impossible. It's impossible because if you are doing anything anything with your hands, you put your heart and soul in that way you're making it. So stressful stressful rollers make mediocre cigars. Happy rollers make amazing cigars, simply as that.
Gizmo:And you know who also told us that? Osmar. Osmar at La Corona.
Danilo:Osmar is, a really a really, estimated and respect person by me. Oz Mart, pretty much teach me everything I know Wow. About cigars and give me the opportunity to start work as a producer. So I have a lot to think of him thank to him. And for me, I've been, a teacher and a friend.
Bam Bam:And we love him.
Gizmo:Yeah. Osmar is great.
Rooster:Yeah. Do you still apply your law degree where you work in some aspect?
Danilo:Yes. And the military formation too. Really? Give you tools. For example, we were talking about, again, about most of my subordinates, the people who work under me, are old enough to be my parents.
Danilo:Wow. So you have to earn that respect.
Bam Bam:And how to speak with them?
Danilo:Yes. Yeah. You have to be both hammer and pillow at the same time. And nothing teach you faster that particular thing than the military life. If you are a squad leader or platoon leader, you have to be the best and the worst man at the same time.
Danilo:If you use that tools to create a team, if you are talking about work, believe me, you get the better results.
Bam Bam:I could use your help back in the states with a few companies.
Gizmo:Do you, do you teach leadership classes?
Rooster:I'm still a student.
Gizmo:As we all are. And I think that's what makes, you know, we've talked about it. Even when we discussed meeting you the first time, I think that forged this friendship that we have, not only just with our wizard friends in the states, but meeting you and how quickly we became friends. It comes down to the the curiosity and wanting to share information and being students of of this thing that we love. You know.
Rooster:And every time we see you and meet you, we learn something new.
Bam Bam:It's true. Tonight, we learned a few things
Senator:that we didn't know. It's incredible to hear you talk about spending 4 years in this business. I think the first time we met you, we left and said I mean, I've been smoking for 15 years. In that first meeting, I learned more from you than I have in 15 years of smoking cigars. So it's just incredible to the testament of the student that you've been, and we're now students that are, you know, able to learn this knowledge and share this with others from you.
Senator:You know, I think we're eternally grateful. It's really been incredible.
Danilo:Thank you, guys.
Bam Bam:Are your students. Yes.
Danilo:I think it works in in both directions. I learn a lot too from from you guys. And, also, my grandfather used to say, in life, you have to find whatever you love to do. And once you find it, try to be paid for doing it. Whatever you do, put your heart and soul in order to be the best and be happy.
Bam Bam:Excellent advice.
Gizmo:Yeah. Those are wise words.
Danilo:And that man was the responsible for my first cigars too.
Bam Bam:Really? Yeah. So you smoked with him?
Danilo:Yeah. But I was, a little child. I would love to know.
Bam Bam:I was gonna I was
Senator:gonna ask, actually, how old were you when you had your first cigar?
Bam Bam:What was your first cigar if you remember it?
Rooster:It was the Bauza. The Bauza. I'm
Danilo:I'm not sure if that's legal.
Gizmo:Hey, Senator, he did the same thing too. He
Danilo:Okay. Was like, I was like 6 years old. Oh, wow. What's amazing? My grandfather and I, we were watching a baseball play was Obama's team, industrialist, playing against Santiago.
Danilo:It's like you can call in US United States, New York versus Boston. Mhmm. Right. So
Bam Bam:Yankees or Mets? Big Red. Which one?
Danilo:Yankees, I think.
Gizmo:Yankees. Damn it.
Danilo:But Obama's team in the street was winning after a long, long and difficult game. So my grandfather was so happy, so happy that the guy gave me a puff from his cigar.
Senator:Do you remember what cigar this was?
Danilo:It was a Robusto. Okay. Wow. Epicure number 2.
Gizmo:Oh, wow. Pollo.
Bam Bam:Wow. We heard similar stories in 1910 when he started smoking. Rooster.
Gizmo:Rooster's been smoking for a long time.
Bam Bam:Oh, yeah.
Gizmo:That's amazing. So boys, we're coming to the end of the Bahike 54 from Cohiba.
Rooster:Yes. May I have another? Correct.
Gizmo:What an amazing cigar. What an amazing night.
Danilo:Yeah. Some are coming to the end. Some already are burning their fingers.
Gizmo:Yeah. So Mister smoke slowly.
Bam Bam:Yeah. I am notorious for smoking a little too fast, but this is this was extremely delicious.
Gizmo:Wonderful. Take
Rooster:my time with everything.
Gizmo:Yeah. Wonderful cigar. So before we wrap up, I wanted to ask, what are the next 3 to 5 years of Cohiba look like? What's coming?
Danilo:Interesting question. I think future is bright for for Cohiba and for all cigar world. If you think about it, maybe 30 years ago, cigar was for all people. For example, wine was for old classy people. Right now, every day, you got, more young people, enthusiasts, aficionado people who want to learn, want to try.
Danilo:And even if, the spots, the places for smoke, the opportunities for smoke every day are hotter, you can appreciate more people and young people mostly got interest in cigar. And mostly, doesn't matter if they start Dominicans, Honduras, Nicaraguan cigars. Eventually, everybody want to try Cubans, and I think that's good. Our only responsibility, our only real challenge is try to be at the high of those expectations, try to provide memorable cigars. That's the main
Bam Bam:goal. You know, we've discussed this many times, and there's the thought that the Cuban cigar is a more refined cigar than the new world cigars like you mentioned earlier.
Danilo:I think,
Bam Bam:Would you recommend a a starter or a new cigar smoker to begin with a Cuban or a new world cigar, like a Padron or Davidoff or other New World?
Danilo:I think it's the same if you recommend some kind of music for starts. Everybody got their own preference.
Rooster:Mhmm.
Danilo:I cannot say the new world cigars are better or worse than Cuban. They're simply different. They are. The customers got more options.
Rooster:Sure.
Danilo:So I think even if we are, competing for the same market, the most important winner is the customer because you got more choices. Dominican cigars are really good. Nicaraguan cigars are really good in their own way. Cuban cigars got their own strengths and weakness. So every producer got their own potential in order to develop a different cigar, a richest cigar.
Gizmo:Well, as far as quality goes and performance and experience, you have given us a great experience tonight.
Danilo:Thank you.
Gizmo:Sagar was amazing. And, certainly, to sit with you and to discuss these things and to, for us, most importantly, be able to share this with the world, this important information that is not widely available. That's really important to us, so we are very, very grateful for for everything tonight and your time.
Danilo:Thank you, guys. What can I say? For me, it's, a wonderful opportunity. Share a little bit what we are doing over there in Lagito, and also I think it's a big opportunity in order to meet new people because cigar is not just about smoking. It's about companies, about share.
Danilo:It's the whole culture around cigars.
Bam Bam:This thing of ours?
Danilo:Yes. Most of my best memories are around cigars. Even with Same here at home.
Bam Bam:Yes. Agreed.
Gizmo:Same here.
Rooster:Of us.
Bam Bam:You're echoing everything we've been talking about for years now.
Danilo:For all of us.
Senator:And we always talk about in the podcast. I mean, I met someone years ago who described cigars as the great equalizer.
Danilo:Yeah.
Senator:It doesn't matter what walk of life you're from, what you do, how much money you have. None of that matters. When you have a shared appreciation for this I mean, without this, we would never have met, right, if we were not cigar smokers.
Bam Bam:We would not have met each other.
Senator:We would have met each other, and it it's every one of us has an entirely different career path, and it's just this community that it creates globally. And we're here in Havana having this conversation with you is just incredible.
Danilo:Thank you, guys. Same.
Rooster:It's it's the highlight of our trip.
Bam Bam:Absolutely. Say that.
Gizmo:Absolutely. And hopefully hopefully the first of many. Yes.
Rooster:Yes. I was just gonna say this is part 1.
Senator:Part 1.
Bam Bam:Many more to come. I'm not leaving. I'm staying.
Gizmo:Well, just keep it rolling. Well, Danilo, thank you again sincerely. This was fantastic. Cigar was amazing.
Danilo:Has been a pleasure, guys, and thank you for the opportunity.
Bam Bam:Thank you so much.
Gizmo:Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate it. Alright. And we'll see everybody next week.
Gizmo:Hope you enjoyed this episode. Thanks for joining us. You can find our merch store and ratings archive at our brand new website, loungelizardspod.com. That's loungelizardspod.com. Don't forget to leave us a rating and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform.
Gizmo:If you have any comments, questions, you wanna reach out, say hello, tell us what you're smoking, email us hello at loungelizardspod.com. You can also find us on Instagram atloungelizardspod. We really appreciate your time, and we'll, we'll see you next week.