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More to the Story with Dr. Andy Miller III is a podcast exploring theology in the orthodox Wesleyan tradition. Hear engaging interviews and musings from Dr. Miller each week.
Transcript
Welcome to the more to story. Podcast I'm so glad that you have come along for this important episode of one of the most significant concepts in the New Testament that, I think, is often overlooked. And we're going to hear more about that in just a second. But first, I want you to know this. Podcast, comes to you from Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches.
Andy Miller III: and this is a time where you might be able to get in and sign up for classes or audit classes that are going to be happening in this summertime, but also, as we head into the fall semester, we're in an exciting time in the history of Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we've added more than 300 global Methodist church pastors
Andy Miller III: as students in addition to other students. So this is a high point in our history. At the same time, there's just a host of programs that are available for people from bachelors to master's and doctoral degrees, but also a lay initiative. The Wesley Institute is coming up
Andy Miller III: this August, and we'd love for you to sign up for that or just learn more about us at Wbs. Edu also this, podcast is brought to you by Wpo development.
Andy Miller III: They are a consulting firm that comes alongside, nonprofits, either schools, churches.
Andy Miller III: other just kind of like charitable, charitable organizations and helps them think about their future, you know, and also then figure out how to actualize that future. And they do that through mission planning studies, feasibility sales and capital campaigns. If you're looking for some type of service like that, I highly recommend them to you because I've used them in the past, and they've been a blessing to me. So you can find out more about Wpo development
Andy Miller III: in our show notes.
Andy Miller III: Also, I want people to know that I would love for you to sign up for my email list. And you can do that. Andy Miller, the third.com. That's Andy Miller iii.com. And if you sign up for my email list I'll send you a free tool called 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching. And it's it's a simple tool that guides you through the inductive Bible study method in a way that helps you keep in mind your congregation or the class that you're serving
Andy Miller III: in the process. So I'd love for you to check that out. I also includes a 45 min video of me teaching
Andy Miller III: on that topic. So you can check that out at Andy Miller, third.com. I also have some courses available there for small groups and Sunday school classes, one that's a discussion of the afterlife, and another one that works through the small book of Jude. Those are video based lessons that have discussion guides and something that churches and small groups are using. Actually, I just heard from a group from Australia just recently about it. And I heard from somebody, Ohio just yesterday
Andy Miller III: who's using the Jude study. So if you're looking for something like that, you can find that at Andy Miller, the third is Andy Miller Iii. Com.
Andy Miller III: Okay, I am delighted to bring to you one of my friends. Now I I say, a lot of my podcast guests are friends. But this is really the case here with my friend, Dr. Rick Boyd, who serves as Professor of Inductive Bible Study and New Testament Professor at Wesley, Biblical Seminary, Rick Welcome to the Podcast.
Rick Boyd: Thank you, brother.
Rick Boyd: thank you. Just.
Andy Miller III: It's good to have you on, brother, and we're gonna talk about that word even more
Andy Miller III: this through this session. And I have to admit, Rick. I I think I noticed maybe our first conversation that you often refer to brothers and sisters in Christ with that title, and I didn't know I I figured it was important. I I think some people use that language. I didn't realize how much that was a part of the way you think about.
Andy Miller III: Well, I'm going to say all of reality, like all of social reality through that lens, I mean. So we're going to get into that in this session. But, Rick, before we get going, before we get going and talking, we want to talk about Hebrews, and and Dr. Boyd has spent his
Andy Miller III: scholarly life, studying the book of Hebrews, and I'm looking forward to my audience learning more about Hebrews in this session in this time together. But before we get that, Rick. Just tell us a little bit about yourself, and how you came to this position in your life where you're serving as a teacher of Scripture and training pastors, and that type of thing.
Rick Boyd: I I could never have imagined it. I I was not, you know, brought up in a Christian household.
Rick Boyd: My parents used to be bothered by that when they would hear me over the last. You know, 20 years or so talk.
Rick Boyd: and I would mention that they would say, This is a Christian household, but
Rick Boyd: it wasn't. It was a moral household based on their standards. But I spent. I lived the first 31 years of my life
Rick Boyd: outside the Church no relationship with the Lord whatsoever. I considered myself a default. Christian, just because it was at that time, you know, you're talking about the 60 seventies. Eighties was considered a Christian nation.
Rick Boyd: but it wasn't. And in any case, when I was 31,
Rick Boyd: after a series of
Rick Boyd: incidents of idolatry. I was the chief idolator. I mean to follow Paul. I was the chief of centers. I was the chief idolator. I had as an idol
Rick Boyd: radio.
Rick Boyd: and you'll notice.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Rick Boyd: I I'm used to the headphones. You you kind of make fun of me with the the helic helicopter, with the helicopter, and it does. It kind of looks like operating a helicopter. But I'm used to the headphones, cause I was in radio in the late seventies and into the eighties.
Rick Boyd: and it was an idle to me. I worshipped it. And then
Rick Boyd: basically the Lord God.
Rick Boyd: the God of the Bible
Rick Boyd: allowed me to meet my little G idle god
Rick Boyd: of radio, and showed me that it's not what I thought it was. It's not worth worship.
Rick Boyd: So I switched my allegiance from that idle
Rick Boyd: to softball
Rick Boyd: and softball, became this idle, and it was everything to me. And I was gonna win a state championship
Rick Boyd: so I thought, well, in 1991,
Rick Boyd: our team came out of Nowhere State of Illinois.
Rick Boyd: and we won the Asa class, a State championship.
Rick Boyd: To the surprise of everybody except the the people on the team
Rick Boyd: because we we were confident in ourselves, but nobody else was well
Rick Boyd: when we won the State championship. That was my second idol, and I had devoted my whole life to it at that point.
Rick Boyd: and I have it. And once again God showed me it wasn't worth my life. It's it's an idle. So those 2 idols back to back
Rick Boyd: sent me on a journey
Rick Boyd: that 3 months later I was in a hotel room in Albuquerque, New Mexico working as an engineer. I'd gotten an engineering degree. After after I left radio, I redirected myself to engineering, but I played softball, and that was my life.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Rick Boyd: So I'm working as an engineer visiting Albuquerque. I'm
Rick Boyd: in a hotel room with 4 Seasons hotel room 204. At about 2 o'clock in the afternoon.
Rick Boyd: and I'm reading Genesis.
Rick Boyd: and 35 to Genesis. 35, 2, Jacob said to his household, and to all who are with him. Get rid of the foreign gods that are in your midst, and purify yourselves and change your clothes. And when I read that verse, and it was a life application Bible I had just bought.
Rick Boyd: because I thought, well, I need something else to pursue.
Rick Boyd: You know these 2 failed idolatries. How about just reading the Bible. Let's let maybe that has some answers.
Rick Boyd: So I'm reading the application note for that verse.
Rick Boyd: Application note said that an idle can be. It doesn't have to be a physical object. It can be a thought, or a desire, or anything that takes the place of God and brother. When I read that
Rick Boyd: I was born again in an instant more radically than Saul, on the road to Damascus.
Andy Miller III: Wow!
Rick Boyd: Because Saul had background. I didn't have any background.
Andy Miller III: Wow!
Rick Boyd: And so I knew God was real.
Rick Boyd: His presence filled the room.
Rick Boyd: I knew that the Bible was his word.
Rick Boyd: and I knew I was forever changed.
Rick Boyd: And so this is, you know you made reference to the brother
Rick Boyd: it became a very real thing. I was truly born again. I called my wife Jodie. We've been married for 2 years. She was back in Illinois, and I was in Albuquerque, and I said, we need to go to church. And she literally said, Who is this.
Andy Miller III: Wow, because.
Rick Boyd: It was not the same man that left that morning out of Willard Airport in Urbana
Rick Boyd: to fly to Albuquerque, and so that changed everything for me
Rick Boyd: and for for the next 2 and a half years I worked as an engineer, but now I'm on fire for the Lord.
Rick Boyd: and what God did
Rick Boyd: was, he took my most recent idle.
Rick Boyd: which was softball
Rick Boyd: and turned it into ministry.
Rick Boyd: He is so good to do that.
Rick Boyd: And so I played for that team, that championship team for another couple years. But they got kind of tired of the guy who's always referencing Christ
Rick Boyd: and glorifying him. And all of this, and and so it ended up being a ministry. I coached the church team. Jodi and I were going to Free Methodist Church.
Rick Boyd: and and at that point
Rick Boyd: God called me to seminary, so Jody and I didn't. That's a whole nother story. Jody wasn't going, and God changed her heart at Estes Chapel
Rick Boyd: on the campus at of Asbury Seminary.
Rick Boyd: and so he called us to to Wilmore.
Rick Boyd: and I was there from 94 to 97, not knowing where I was going to go from there just knowing that God called me to study His word. So I so I studied inductive Bible study that that particular method, and Greek and Hebrew. That was the emphasis of my time, not knowing where God's gonna call.
Rick Boyd: And in 97 my last semester God
Rick Boyd: called me to Christian radio.
Andy Miller III: Now it.
Rick Boyd: Wasn't my intention to redeem my radio deals.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, you had the idols before then that like softball was used.
Andy Miller III: And then, now you're in the situation. Where, hey? You had this experience in radio and and very successful, I mean in radio as well. So now I wanted to highlight one thing because you and I have had this conversation even today.
Andy Miller III: Not we're not thinking about the nature of this call. But we were talking about the importance of calling
Andy Miller III: even for seminary students as opposed to people coming because they need a credential. So they can get a job.
Andy Miller III: And it seems like a lot. You you weren't at seminary because oh, this is why I need to get into Free Methodist Church. Now God use you in the Free Methodist Church. You've been actively engaged in various churches, but that wasn't why you were there right. It was purely because you knew that the god was calling you there. And so this similar direction came at at this point when you're finishing at Seminary to head towards Christian radio. Is that the case.
Rick Boyd: Yeah, God's. It's funny how God calls people at least me. In my case I was born again reading the word.
Rick Boyd: and in 1,994. I took a week off of work. I took my engineering job and kind of put it on hold.
Rick Boyd: spent a week working through Ezekiel
Rick Boyd: because I sense through Ezekiel. He was going to call me to something.
Rick Boyd: and at the end of the week, that week off that I had. I was disappointed because Scott hadn't called me
Rick Boyd: and I I. We were supposed to go to dinner with another couple. Jody wasn't ready, so I went back to my study, and I opened up Ezekiel again. Chapter 3.
Rick Boyd: Son of man, eat what is before you eat this scroll and go speak to my house, Israel.
Rick Boyd: and I knew in a moment
Rick Boyd: that God was calling me to study His word. Now I didn't know exactly what that meant.
Rick Boyd: It took another couple months of discernment to find out I didn't need to go to a Bible college.
Rick Boyd: I've already got a bachelor degree in engineering.
Rick Boyd: You can just go to seminary, and God called us to Asbury to study his word. And that's what I focused on, so that in 97 I'm standing outside A Bf Fisher library talking to another brother.
Rick Boyd: and he brought to mind Jeff Moore in the distance, so.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Rick Boyd: When all is said and done, was the song.
Rick Boyd: and
Rick Boyd: and for some reason God gave me a vision
Rick Boyd: for Christian radio which I'd never heard before.
Rick Boyd: I had been in secular radio for 8 years, but I had left that behind, and so God gave me a specific vision of intertwining
Rick Boyd: contemporary Christian music
Rick Boyd: with depth of Scripture. Not just a verse of the day, not just a thought, a pleasant thought, something encouraging and positive.
Andy Miller III: Positive uplifting, you know, like, Caleb, yeah, or whatever the whatever the station is like, safe for the whole family.
Rick Boyd: Exact.
Andy Miller III: Not a bad idea. I mean, I like safe things for my family. Don't get me wrong. I like safety, but I think sadly. It seems like much of Christian radio has become overly commercialized. And it's trying to, you know. Get to this this point of like, what has become the top station like what is what's going to be listened to the most so we can sell.
Andy Miller III: Adds add time. Probably so. But you had a different idea.
Rick Boyd: Well, it's it's what God gave me, you know he just. He implanted this in me, and and I could try and unpack that. But.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, I wanna get the Hebrews. Yeah, yeah.
Rick Boyd: And so he, he very, very, very, very clearly called me to Christian radio, and through a couple of months of discernment, and sending out letters to Christian radio stations, and all of that.
Rick Boyd: There was a ministry in Minnesota, Southern Minnesota
Rick Boyd: that was looking for precisely what God called me to do, and it was the only one in the nation
Rick Boyd: that was interested in that.
Rick Boyd: They flew us up there. Jody and I, both in our time up there knew that God was calling us up there.
Rick Boyd: And so we moved up to Blue Earth, Minnesota, in 1997.
Rick Boyd: And and I did Christian radio this this particular vision. Not just my program.
Rick Boyd: but the whole I mean I was the program director, and then
Rick Boyd: planted a church or not planted a church. Sorry I
Rick Boyd: I was
Rick Boyd: the operations manager of of a radio station that started
Rick Boyd: September thirteenth of night, of 2,001.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Rick Boyd: 2 days after 9, 11.
Andy Miller III: Wow! I didn't.
Rick Boyd: And it, and it was listener supported.
Rick Boyd: Now that would be a challenge.
Rick Boyd: But God.
Rick Boyd: because
Rick Boyd: September eleventh happens 2 days later. We're signing on the air for the first time.
Rick Boyd: and we're depending on giving while all this giving was going out East.
Rick Boyd: And so how are we gonna be funded? How are we gonna possibly continue?
Rick Boyd: Well, the Lord provided I mean year after year after year our our income went up. The giving went up.
Rick Boyd: So anyway, in 2,005.
Rick Boyd: So I've been with this radio ministry for 8 years.
Rick Boyd: and it's by the way, it's kinship Christian radio
Rick Boyd: in Southern Minnesota, Northern Iowa.
Rick Boyd: and God called me
Rick Boyd: to back to school
Rick Boyd: for a Ph. D.
Rick Boyd: And that again is another story.
Rick Boyd: But I knew that he was calling me back to study Hebrews.
Rick Boyd: The the question that I had when I went to Seminary the first time I wanted to know what the New Testament authors.
Rick Boyd: how they came to the conclusion
Rick Boyd: that Jesus is the fulfillment of Scripture. How did they come to that conclusion? And I shared that with a
Rick Boyd: a a familiar name to both of us. David Bauer.
Andy Miller III: Yes, he!
Rick Boyd: And he was my advisor in my master's master's work.
Rick Boyd: He also became my doctoral advisor.
Rick Boyd: but I shared that with him, and he said. You know, if you're really interested in that, you ought to look at the Book of Hebrews.
Rick Boyd: Well, that his seed had been planted, and so I knew God was calling me to study Hebrews, and I did that, and was in Wilmore until 2,014,
Rick Boyd: when, having studied
Rick Boyd: inductive Bible study and Greek and Hebrew. That was my area.
Rick Boyd: The languages and Ibs
Rick Boyd: Wesley Biblical Seminary had a very specific need.
Rick Boyd: They needed somebody to come in. Who was Ibs in the background
Rick Boyd: with Greek and Hebrew capabilities.
Rick Boyd: I mean, I didn't plan it that way, but apparently God did.
Rick Boyd: And so we came down for the interview. Wesley hired us, and we moved here 10 years ago.
Rick Boyd: And that's how we end up here, and that so my background is really Biblical studies.
Rick Boyd: and you know Greek and Hebrew, and and that kind of stuff
Rick Boyd: that I didn't plan. God did. And that's how we end up here.
Andy Miller III: Well, it's great. I'm gonna see what I can do here to let people. Maybe you haven't heard us describe this method inductive Bible study and E, even if you've listened to the beginning, as I make my announce every time about the 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching. Well, that's the inductive Bible study method. And this is a kind of a a streamlined version that I offer in that little tool that I give the people who sign for my email list. But the inductive Bible study method is something that we at Wesley Bible Seminary use
Andy Miller III: as a way to approach Scripture. It is a method. It's an entire hermeneutical approach. I mean how we come to a place of seeing that Scripture or anything. I mean. You can use the the method in many areas, but particularly as it relates to Scripture how there is meaning in the text.
Andy Miller III: And so if you come to Wesley Biblical Seminary, this is going to be at the heart of our curriculum, and it's not that we don't use other literary methods to be able to look at Scripture, or we don't look at outside source or the interpretation of others. But we have a process by which we move through
Andy Miller III: the the meaning of the text. And so this is really at the heart. And, Rick, maybe I could. Here, I'm saying it in front of the master, so to speak. Anything else you wanna say about Ibs? Because that's really behind our even our discussion of Hebrews is that you inductively move through Hebrews to highlight a specific theme. But anything you like to say about? I'm sure there is.
Rick Boyd: Anything more.
Andy Miller III: You'd like to say about Ivs.
Rick Boyd: Yeah, there, there actually is. And it comes down to where you start.
Rick Boyd: Where do you? Where do you start in the process of studying the Bible
Rick Boyd: and some methods they start with the history. Well, let's find out all we can about first century Judaism and first century Greco Roman culture, or you know, let's let's go to the experts and start with them and their thoughts on it.
Rick Boyd: IBS. Starts with the text itself.
Rick Boyd: and the emphasis on inductive Bible study is the final form of the text. I'm looking around my study here, cause I I use the Greek, but this is the final form of the eclectic Greek text that we have same thing for the Hebrew.
Rick Boyd: You know this is the Hebrew text. Right? Sorry right here.
Rick Boyd: But this is the new American standard
Rick Boyd: edition, and you can see I've I've go ahead and tape it up because I go through Bibles. Anyway, this is the final form of the text, this, this is where we start.
Rick Boyd: And so you approach the text, not merely for the content.
Rick Boyd: My, I've got a favorite verse, and then another favorite verse, and another favorite verse.
Rick Boyd: But those verses are isolated. Often when we say what my favorite verse is such and such.
Andy Miller III: Right, right.
Rick Boyd: Cause, we take it out of its context and Ibs is all about
Rick Boyd: the version that we have not. Whatever led up to that. If there was an editing process, you know, redaction criticism and and the various other critical methods. We start with the text the way we have it. And we're interested both in the content, but also the way the content is arranged, because the shape of it
Rick Boyd: makes a huge difference.
Rick Boyd: and when it comes to the Book of Hebrews. Everybody has a different opinion. It seems like about the the arrangement of the book of Hebrews. Mine comes from
Rick Boyd: reading through the text, reading through the text, reading through the text, reading through the text, and seeing how I can perceive the text arising and the arrangement of it arising out of the text.
Rick Boyd: And so you start with a text.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. Amen. I want to. I want to ask a few questions on that, too, because I think it'll be helpful for people to understand. And this is this is where
Andy Miller III: denominations, traditions, theologies go awry. This is where problems start to write is that when we don't acknowledge the starting place of the text. But before I ask a question about the starting place, let me just acknowledge the the conversation, or piece.
Andy Miller III: or something I'd like to just discuss in general about the final form. The inductive method, though, doesn't discount or overlook
Andy Miller III: the reality of textual criticism. And what here's what I mean by textual criticism is that we acknowledge. And this is something we work through in our Old Testament and New Testament introduction, so that we don't have like just one text, like as Rick lifted it up, that's instead of original language documents there. There are a variety of documents that are put together, and we have text. So when we do text criticism, it's us looking at those source traditions to figure out what is there. But
Andy Miller III: just because we focus on the final form, Rick. That doesn't mean that we overlook textual criticism. Talk to me about the way that text criticism fits in to the Ibs method.
Rick Boyd: Well, it's not just text criticism, but it's also the the source criticism.
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.
Rick Boyd: Form criticism. All these critical methodologies which other
Rick Boyd: institutions and a number of scholars start their redaction criticism, and such they start with the assumption that
Rick Boyd: instead, we start with the original with with the final form of the text, and if it is relevant.
Rick Boyd: if it is relevant, we engage the other critical methodologies. Ibs is really a very eclectic
Rick Boyd: approach, but it's very structured as well. There's certain steps you need to take. For instance.
Rick Boyd: when I was in my radio ministry
Rick Boyd: because I was program director. I visited.
Rick Boyd: I visited pastors and churches all over the listening area, and it was pretty good sized listening area.
Rick Boyd: and I visited hundreds of churches and hundreds of pastors from all kinds of denominations, different theological traditions, and very few of them
Rick Boyd: started preparing a sermon in the text. Most of the pastors would go to their shelf, and they'd pull off commentary.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Rick Boyd: And they would start there. Okay, let's see what the experts have to say.
Rick Boyd: and they don't really engage the text. Well.
Rick Boyd: consulting commentaries is absolutely essential for Bible study.
Rick Boyd: but only after you finished your own study.
Rick Boyd: Yeah. And and Ibs, specifically the way we teach it. At Wesley
Rick Boyd: you learn how to study the Bible based on what the text actually says. You're you're directly studying the Bible, and you're studying both the arrangement of the materials and the materials themselves. So you're trying to understand what the author is doing.
Rick Boyd: If I could give you a quick example.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Rick Boyd: The gospel of Matthew.
Rick Boyd: You know we're most of us are pretty familiar with the gospel of Matthew, so we think.
Rick Boyd: But if you were to read Matthew
Rick Boyd: 28 chapters.
Rick Boyd: and you would read it and then read it again.
Rick Boyd: Read it again.
Rick Boyd: and you really should do this.
Rick Boyd: you would see at least one of the ways to understand the structure of Matthew is that it? It's arranged in 3 different parts, 3 very distinct parts
Rick Boyd: from chapter one verse one, which is the genealogy that's where it begins
Rick Boyd: up through 4 16
Rick Boyd: is really the preparation for Jesus ministry.
Rick Boyd: Oh, there's a lot of information there you got the genealogy you've got
Rick Boyd: the angel appearing to Joseph. You shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people his people from their sins. They shall call his name Emmanuel, which is God with us. Chapter 2. You've got Herod and the Magi appear. So you've got this battle of kingships.
Rick Boyd: That's easy to overlook. But that's really what chapter 2 is about. It's the the difference between Herod's reign.
Rick Boyd: which is very threatening. Oppressive paranoid over against Jesus, who will shepherd
Rick Boyd: God's people. Israel. Chapter 3. John the baptizer, comes on the scene at the end of chapter 3. He baptizes Jesus. Chapter 4. Begins with Jesus in the wilderness being tempted for 40 days. All of this is preparation.
Rick Boyd: It's giving us background, the information that we need, so that at 4 17
Rick Boyd: in Matthew.
Rick Boyd: From then
Rick Boyd: Jesus began to preach and to say, Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Rick Boyd: There's a turning point
Rick Boyd: now. You wouldn't know that just kind of reading through the Gospel. If if you're not made aware of what authors and and how books are arranged, but what authors are doing.
Rick Boyd: and what you end up. What you can see is that it? We get to 1621,
Rick Boyd: which is the second turning point, and this is what divides it into the 3 parts.
Rick Boyd: because at 1621, from then sounds familiar. Jesus began to show his disciples
Rick Boyd: that it's necessary for him to go to Jerusalem, suffer many things from the chief priests and elders be crucified on the third day be raised
Rick Boyd: to actually be killed, and on the third day being raised.
Rick Boyd: And right before that
Rick Boyd: we have Jesus
Rick Boyd: talking to his disciples, saying, Who do people say the Son of man is well, who do you say I am.
Rick Boyd: And the reason for the turning point, which is the major turning point.
Rick Boyd: is the confession of disciples
Rick Boyd: that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, because people in general who have heard the message can't decide who he is.
Rick Boyd: Well, some say you're John the baptizers. Some say you're Eliza Jeremiah, one of the prophets.
Rick Boyd: They can't make up their mind. Disciples say you are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Rick Boyd: and that changes things. Brothers and sisters when we read the text like that, and we can see very clearly. Matthews arranged this in a particular way.
Rick Boyd: It deepens our understanding of what the text really says, that's Ibs, essentially, it's it's looking at those 2.
Andy Miller III: And you mentioned, too, that we what we do is we start with the text. Well, some people, Rick would suggest, well, we can't just come to text, because, you know, we have our experiences. We learn to read. We were taught. So our experience
Andy Miller III: comes before we ever even get to the text, how do you respond to that.
Rick Boyd: That's a great, great point. Because we do have some students.
Rick Boyd: You know, they're seminary level students, but they they come to the text, and they have been taught. You start with your experience. But the text that we have is objective. It's it's outside of us. And we need to start. If if truly, the Bible is the Word of God, and we hold to that absolutely inherent, it is the Word of God, and I wouldn't be here otherwise. If I hadn't had that encounter with the Lord in the hotel room reading his word.
Rick Boyd: I don't know where I would be. I probably wouldn't be at this point.
Rick Boyd: But the point is, the the Scripture gives us this object reality that needs to be studied objectively. You don't bring your experiences, which is what you're talking about, but any kind of background as well. I mean, if you, if you believe that there is an editing process that gives us, you know Matthew, or one of the other books.
Rick Boyd: You need to leave that off to the side that's called a presupposition.
Rick Boyd: because you assume
Rick Boyd: you're presupposing something that the text may or may not have.
Rick Boyd: I mean some presuppositions. They may be valid, but you don't bring those into the text. You let the text bring out what it wants to to bring out the way it's arranged, as well as with the content.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I remember I was. I was so committed to that.
Andy Miller III: this perspective, or or or trying to to use this method. Man. I you'll you'll know that the exact reference? But there's a a couple of places in the New Testament. I oh, man, I wanna say it's Galatians, where it identifies Peter as cfus right? And so they describe like
Andy Miller III: and I. And I went ahead just because in in this, if this focuses not Ibs focuses not just on the final form, but also helping people understand in
Andy Miller III: in the English language, right? And starting there, because that's where most people start, but then it still incorporates original languages, as is the case with you. But I remember in my inductive Bible study lesson, just writing well, who is cfus anyways like I didn't. I didn't even want to make the assumption that I knew that that was Peter, even though, being around Sunday school enough, and you'll know we've already talked about David Bauer. I was taking a class with David Bauer doing this assignment for him.
Andy Miller III: and the greater said, no need to do this right. He he's like no need. We know this. But then, in a different color pen on top of that David Bauer scratched out and said, No, he's got the method right. They're like, because I was trying to say, like, I don't know like the the quite. I'm bringing my outside understanding that Cfus is Peter. So that was that was a win. Sorry to glorify myself here, but that was that was a win for me in looking at the original text.
Rick Boyd: That's what we need to learn to do. Because we can't bring our assumptions into the text. Well, I know what this means.
Rick Boyd: But does the text really say that you may be bringing it in from another source? And the author of the book you're studying? It's a very book centric
Rick Boyd: study method. But it's not limited to individual books. Eventually it comes into conversation with the rest of Scripture. So really inductive Bible study is holistic
Rick Boyd: in the sense that
Rick Boyd: it incorporates everything that is relevant.
Rick Boyd: and it does it according to the book that you're studying the particular book.
Rick Boyd: Most people don't read 4 books at the same time.
Rick Boyd: You know you're not reading Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Altogether.
Rick Boyd: You're reading one at a time, that's that's all we can do. And so Matthew tells the story of Jesus with a particular emphasis, in a particular way, arranged a particular way.
Rick Boyd: Mark
Rick Boyd: presents the story of Jesus.
Rick Boyd: A lot of similarities between Matthew and Mark and Luke.
Rick Boyd: but they're told with different emphases for a different purpose to a different audience. These are very specific. They didn't just drop out of the sky.
Rick Boyd: They were written by people inspired by the Holy Spirit
Rick Boyd: to reach a particular audience.
Rick Boyd: and when these were collected we have these 4 gospels. We need all 4 perspectives because they get they have the same subject matter, Jesus.
Rick Boyd: but they're they give us different insights.
Rick Boyd: different understandings, gospel of Matthew.
Rick Boyd: And this is this is an IBS. Thing, the Gospel of Matthew. In chapter one, verse 23,
Rick Boyd: they will call his name in Manu. Well, this is a quote from Isaiah 7.
Rick Boyd: They will call his name Emmanuel, which is translated God with us.
Rick Boyd: The very last verse in the gospel of Matthew.
Rick Boyd: And surely I am with you always to the very end of the age.
Rick Boyd: and that is an that is a structural relationship. One of the things you learn in Ivs
Rick Boyd: structural relationship called inclusio. It acts like bookends.
Rick Boyd: and it informs
Rick Boyd: what's in between the 2 bookends.
Andy Miller III: Yes, Amen.
Rick Boyd: And so the Book of Matthew can really be understood through one lens
Rick Boyd: as Jesus being God with us.
Rick Boyd: Now there are references to the Holy Spirit.
Rick Boyd: and certainly Matthew does not deny the Holy Spirit at all. In fact, it includes the Holy Spirit as the one who would be speaking through you. In Matthew 10.
Rick Boyd: The thing is.
Rick Boyd: Jesus is presented
Rick Boyd: as God with us, and that's absolutely true.
Rick Boyd: You get to Luke, and Luke
Rick Boyd: presents Jesus slightly differently. There's a different emphasis that Jesus becomes one of us
Rick Boyd: and blazes the trail for us.
Rick Boyd: And what's interesting about Luke is
Rick Boyd: the dependence that Jesus has on the Holy Spirit.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Rick Boyd: Now
Rick Boyd: the the 2 2 different versions you got Matthew, or the 2 different books you got, Matthew and you got Luke. They don't deny one another, but they're presenting it with different emphases. And so we get a fuller picture with all 4 gospels
Rick Boyd: is what we do.
Andy Miller III: Well. And then, speaking of different emphases.
Andy Miller III: that's one of the challenges of why the Book of Hebrews, or the sermon of Hebrew, called Hebrews, or the sermon to the Hebrews, or however we want to describe it. That's in part
Andy Miller III: why, it's been hard. Why, people have. Scholars have struggled with it. The Greek in it is, some would say, harder, harder to read, harder to understand, different from what's happening in other passages. Other other portions of the New Testament, and
Andy Miller III: a different emphasis, and you maintain that one of the things about Hebrews is the filial, that family, the word filial kind of connected word family presentation of Jesus as a son. So I just want to Jesus as a son. Hence not just Jesus as the Son, but also
Andy Miller III: Jesus, then as the brother.
Andy Miller III: So, and I'm not talking about
Andy Miller III: to James, but to us as well. So I just want to read this. The the Intro. The very first verse is honestly, every time the time comes up for me
Andy Miller III: and my yearly Bible reading I'm a read the Bible every year. Sort of guy some people will call me a legalist because of that. It's just. It works for me. It works for me to get. And I I love working through Scripture, hearing the story over and over again. But whatever day lands for me with getting Hebrews, one generally is 1, one through 3. I get.
Andy Miller III: boy. That's a great day just hearing these words. And so I'm gonna read this, Rick. And I want us to think about what what is trying, what what the author of Hebrews is trying to do, and how that presentation at Jesus' Son is different. So verse one. Chapter one, in Hebrews
Andy Miller III: and in the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son.
Andy Miller III: whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also He made the universe. Now I could keep going on. It keeps on. The sun is the exact is a radiance, a God's glory. I'm I'm going to read another verse. Sorry I can't help myself.
Andy Miller III: The exact, the radiance of God's glory, the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purifications for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became
Andy Miller III: as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
Andy Miller III: So your interpretation, your inductive work through Hebrews.
Andy Miller III: emphasizes this role as Jesus's and Son. Help us know why that's important. Why, that's a distinct contribution.
Rick Boyd: By the way.
Rick Boyd: this is one of the things I love about you, brother.
Rick Boyd: is the fact that
Rick Boyd: you and I are so expressive. We we get carried away, and I can tell you if there's a chapel service here on campus, or even a meeting and some, and somebody says something out of Scripture that we can't help but affirm, what are the 2 that people here?
Rick Boyd: And so this is kind of a dangerous mix here, but it's great, and I love that about you.
Andy Miller III: And I love it about you.
Rick Boyd: What? What
Rick Boyd: What I see at the beginning of the Book of Hebrews really does prepare us for the whole book, the whole book.
Rick Boyd: and that's unusual. I don't know that that I come across anybody else really identifying that.
Rick Boyd: And that's part of a book that I'm writing
Rick Boyd: is based on my thesis. It's kind of a revision of my thesis, and so that's at the heart of it.
Rick Boyd: Are this the first verse and a half.
Rick Boyd: and I'll I'll translate it. I'll give you my translation.
Andy Miller III: Okay. Gotcha.
Rick Boyd: On the fly, because I want to point a couple of things out here which are unusual. In fact, they're unique. I don't know of somebody else doing this
Rick Boyd: about.
Andy Miller III: Second, Rick. Sure, something. I think your microphone just changed.
Andy Miller III: I don't know if it got unplugged or something happened. But you're you. It's that it won't be bad.
Andy Miller III: but it is
Rick Boyd: You able to hear it now.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I hear you, but it's just a little different, so it'll be fine. But I'm not. I'm not again. I'm not like going for a radio, perfect.
Andy Miller III: the podcast but
Andy Miller III: but I just in just in case there was like there was a cord that was unplugged. I thought I'd give you a chance to get that.
Rick Boyd: Everything is still connected. That's right. In front of me.
Andy Miller III: I'll I'll say 3, 2, one, and that will give Jeff. He'll may be able. Make the edit. Alright. 3, 2, one.
Rick Boyd: Alright. So I wanna kind of share
Rick Boyd: the beginning of the Book of Hebrews, you know the first verse and a half which I think, prepares.
Rick Boyd: you know, for the whole book.
Rick Boyd: and giving you my translation from the Greek
Rick Boyd: and and I don't know of anybody else who does this
Rick Boyd: that sees it this particular way.
Rick Boyd: but I don't know that anybody can deny it.
Rick Boyd: I don't I don't. I don't think so. So in the Greek. The first words are Paul Lumarrows, kai polytropos, many parts
Rick Boyd: and many ways.
Rick Boyd: So that's the opening words of
Rick Boyd: the the serving. I think it is a survey.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Rick Boyd: So many parts in many ways. Long ago.
Rick Boyd: God having spoken to the fathers in the prophets
Rick Boyd: in these last days.
Rick Boyd: he has spoken to us in a son.
Rick Boyd: Now I think that is preparing us for the entire book that is giving us a lens through which
Rick Boyd: we can see what's going on when
Rick Boyd: the writer gets into some difficult stuff for us in the 20 first century.
Rick Boyd: Who's Melchizedek? And we don't deal with high priests, and all of that.
Rick Boyd: because in this first verse and a half
Rick Boyd: we have a contrast that is set up
Rick Boyd: from the very outset. And that's what we see repeatedly throughout the book is the contrast between essentially the Old Testament
Rick Boyd: and the coming of Christ.
Rick Boyd: So you've got the
Rick Boyd: Old Testament sacrificial system. You got the
Rick Boyd: Old Testament, priesthood
Rick Boyd: and the sacrificial system.
Rick Boyd: We've got Moses over against Jesus, we repeated over and over and over again. That takes us through most of the book, if not all of them. Even in chapter 12
Rick Boyd: we have Mount Sinai over against Mount Sinai.
Rick Boyd: starting in verse 18.
Rick Boyd: So here
Rick Boyd: we have this contrast that's set up at the very beginning.
Rick Boyd: many parts in many ways, long ago.
Rick Boyd: Well, in verse 2, it's in these last days.
Rick Boyd: Okay, yeah.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I see that contrast.
Rick Boyd: Then we have. God spoke to the fathers.
Rick Boyd: now he has spoken to us.
Rick Boyd: and then we have in the profits
Rick Boyd: in a sun.
Andy Miller III: So even in like I mean so the fathers would be a more accurate translation. There's not
Rick Boyd: In in verse one.
Andy Miller III: Okay, interesting.
Rick Boyd: In the fathers over against
Rick Boyd: in a sun.
Rick Boyd: So you've got this confusing answer.
Andy Miller III: Doesn't really work like as it's often translated, because it doesn't catch the contrast.
Rick Boyd: Exactly. I I don't think it catches it quite as clearly. And the fathers over against
Rick Boyd: or in the father. No, it's not in the fathers it's in the profits
Rick Boyd: over against in a son. That's the one contrast a prophets a son. And then you've got spoken to the fathers over against spoken to us. It's not to the fathers. And so what this is doing is, it's looking back at the Old Testament in its entirety.
Rick Boyd: So what the author is doing from the very outset is he's contrasting the way God spoke in the Old Testament.
Rick Boyd: It was long ago. It was to the fathers. It was in the prophets, and what God has now spoken
Rick Boyd: in these last days, not long ago, but in these last days
Rick Boyd: to us, not to the fathers
Rick Boyd: and in a sun.
Rick Boyd: But you may notice, and I hope you do. The opening words in the Greek are many parts in many ways
Rick Boyd: that doesn't have a compliment
Rick Boyd: for the contrast.
Rick Boyd: What do you contrast that against? Hmm.
Rick Boyd: And I can tell you.
Rick Boyd: and this is becoming more and more apparent to me all the time.
Rick Boyd: The missing compliment
Rick Boyd: may be the point of emphasis.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Rick Boyd: Because
Rick Boyd: the compliment for which is not not mentioned here. But it's implicit.
Rick Boyd: The complement to many parts and many ways
Rick Boyd: is completely it's perfect.
Rick Boyd: and what God has spoken in
Rick Boyd: the sun
Rick Boyd: in a sun
Rick Boyd: is perfection.
Rick Boyd: It's completion.
Rick Boyd: and this is the point of Christ coming.
Rick Boyd: So He has come to make us complete.
Rick Boyd: He has come to be. And here this gets to your point of brothers.
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.
Rick Boyd: He has come to complete the human.
Rick Boyd: to make the human perfect, to make it complete
Rick Boyd: with the obedience. I mean, we have that very clearly as well.
Rick Boyd: This concept of obedience, but he has perfected us
Rick Boyd: who are his brothers. He calls us his brothers. In chapter 2,
Rick Boyd: chapter 2,
Rick Boyd: some.
Rick Boyd: let me go back to verse 11. So, chapter 2, verse 11,
Rick Boyd: for the one sanctifying, and the ones being sanctified.
Rick Boyd: are all from one, on account of which reason
Rick Boyd: he, Jesus, is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying.
Rick Boyd: I will declare your name God
Rick Boyd: to my brothers. In the midst of the ecclesia, which is the church? Yeah, in the midst of the congregation I will him view
Rick Boyd: literally him. I will
Rick Boyd: sing songs I will hymn to.
Rick Boyd: And again, verse 13 again, I myself
Rick Boyd: will be having trusted upon him. So, in other words, Jesus did exactly what we're called to do.
Rick Boyd: trusting in God.
Rick Boyd: and they do, and.
Andy Miller III: Interesting. Oh, let me jump in because there's like the interesting idea all throughout Hebrews. This idea, and I remember from my own study the importance of the word rk, gost or Rk. Goy
Andy Miller III: sometimes translated Pioneer, the pioneer and perfector. But what is what is Jesus doing as the one who's going ahead paving the way. But but that doesn't. But that even pioneer doesn't fully get to the idea like he's like this champion. This one who
Andy Miller III: goes first, you know, goes, goes ahead of. And and how is it, then, like when we think of God as triune.
Andy Miller III: that it is that
Andy Miller III: that Jesus is the son in this sense, and is like us, is going going ahead of us. I don't mean to get us too far off track, but this this is trying to describe, like what is, what is the works, the happenings that come as a result of what Jesus did, so help us understand that concept of of pioneer, and how that's connected to Jesus being our brother.
Rick Boyd: That that word archaic, I mean, I'm glad you pointed that out because it only occurs 4 times in the New Testament, and 2 of them in the Book of Heat, so.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Rick Boyd: And they're both pointing directly to. But all kinds of stuff fills my head, as you can imagine. Because Moses is called an ark. Goss in numbers 14.
Rick Boyd: It's it's.
Andy Miller III: The Septuagint.
Rick Boyd: In the Septuagint. It's archaic in the Hebrew. Obviously be different. Be a different word. But in the Septuagint it's archaic. Let us find for ourselves another archaic.
Andy Miller III: Okay. Got.
Rick Boyd: This is after is the Israelites refused to cross the Jordan and conquer Cainan because the people are so big.
Rick Boyd: If you remember that story, and that is used heavily in chapters 3 and 4 of Hebrews.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Rick Boyd: Well, Moses is an archaic, and in chapter 3, Jesus is superior to Moses, and it's because he is a son.
Rick Boyd: But this this concept of our chaos, which is translated Pioneer.
Rick Boyd: Very early on, in my my doctoral studies I came to understand, I dug into this word
Rick Boyd: RK.
Rick Boyd: Which is beginning or leader.
Rick Boyd: You know we have an archbishop is the lead bishop, that's our team. And
Rick Boyd: so so it it has to do with lead
Rick Boyd: or preeminent first.
Rick Boyd: and the other word arcade dos
Rick Boyd: from ago.
Rick Boyd: which means to lead.
Rick Boyd: It's a verb that means delete so literally in rk. Goss is a lead leader.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Rick Boyd: And so pioneer makes perfect sense. Some translations say, Captain.
Rick Boyd: author and perfector of the faith that that that concept is there. I like of those 3 options pioneer.
Rick Boyd: But what I came to understand very early on is that it's like, if I don't. Were you homeschooled? I don't know.
Andy Miller III: I was indeed. Yeah, I was sixth grade on, and and my wife home schools, our kids.
Rick Boyd: Okay. Well, I remember being in first grade, second grade, third grade. I was stick to elementary school. That school doesn't exist anymore.
Rick Boyd: And I remember the teacher taking us on a field trip to the high School, some somewhere close by, where she could walk with us.
Rick Boyd: and she would take the first student by the hand.
Rick Boyd: and that first student took the second student by the hand.
Rick Boyd: So we form this chain of students.
Rick Boyd: and it's really cute to to look at. You see the teacher. And there were chaperones, too. But you, you see, the teacher and all the kids are holding their hands as they're following this lead leader.
Rick Boyd: So the teacher was leading the way.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Rick Boyd: That that's the sense of this word archaic.
Andy Miller III: Interesting.
Rick Boyd: It's not just someone who cuts through the underbrush for the first time.
Rick Boyd: and pioneers the way for everybody else to follow. That's a good sense to understand.
Rick Boyd: But this is even more intimate, more personal.
Rick Boyd: because he's got us by the hand
Rick Boyd: as he's leading us. And in verse 10 of chapter 2.
Rick Boyd: It was fitting for him, on account of whom are all things, and through whom are all things?
Rick Boyd: to
Rick Boyd: for the the Arcade Goths
Rick Boyd: to lead many sons and daughters
Rick Boyd: into glory, the pioneer or the lead leader of their salvation.
Rick Boyd: So this is what he's pioneering.
Rick Boyd: and we are to follow in behind him.
Rick Boyd: He is the one who, it says, leads many sons. That is this filial relationship
Rick Boyd: which Jesus pioneered for us. He is the Son who did that, and then at in chapter 12, we are to run race with perseverance, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of.
Rick Boyd: and there is no pronoun.
Rick Boyd: Faith! So it's it's not our faith. But there is an article.
Rick Boyd: So it is the faith.
Rick Boyd: And if you think about it, chapter 12 comes immediately after Chapter 11,
Rick Boyd: where the whole chapter by faith, by faith, by faith, by faith, by faith.
Rick Boyd: And it's it covers the Old Testament, basically.
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.
Rick Boyd: So this couples with that first verse and a half.
Rick Boyd: because God spoke in bits and pieces
Rick Boyd: in the Old Testament
Rick Boyd: many parts
Rick Boyd: in many ways.
Rick Boyd: but in these last days he's spoken to us completely and perfectly.
Rick Boyd: not just in his son
Rick Boyd: or in the sum.
Rick Boyd: But I maintain in sunshine
Rick Boyd: that the way he spoke to us this is what a Son of God, daughter of God, looks like.
Rick Boyd: This is what a son or daughter of God does. And this son or daughter of God referring to us.
Rick Boyd: we follow the stuff.
Rick Boyd: the one who is the pioneer who is the lead leader.
Rick Boyd: That's who we follow
Rick Boyd: because he has blazed the trail. He is in Chapter 6. He's referred to as our forerunner
Rick Boyd: because he is gone behind the veil, and he is actually
Rick Boyd: made a way for us to be in the very presence of God.
Rick Boyd: And so it's a very important
Rick Boyd: aspect. This archaic concept
Rick Boyd: is very important, because Jesus didn't just make away for us by dying.
Andy Miller III: Height.
Rick Boyd: But he blazed the trail for us by living the life we are called to live.
Rick Boyd: and we follow in behind him.
Andy Miller III: One of the things that I think about with the fact we're called to follow in this path. We think of Christ's brother.
Andy Miller III: some might say, well, and I've seen some. I've seen some hymns that do this.
Andy Miller III: I can't think of off top my head. But even even people
Andy Miller III: might even call Jesus our Father, to sort.
Rick Boyd: And agree.
Andy Miller III: And if that happens they, it might be cause. There's a sense of reverence that thinking of Jesus as brother might diminish his divinity to some people is I? I'm trying to set this up for you, but it's not something that I believe myself, but but it might seem like, oh, well, we're making him
Andy Miller III: too common, too much like us.
Andy Miller III: that's not what's happening in Hebrews, obviously. But
Andy Miller III: to help us with that idea, maybe some people are uncomfortable with the idea of Christ being our brother.
Rick Boyd: I understand that all too well. Because
Rick Boyd: I am a perfectionist, and I was. I was warned about that.
Rick Boyd: I need to be careful about that, and we're touching on that very thing here. I want every verse in Scripture to come with the full package
Rick Boyd: to answer every question and every issue. And that's not. It's simply not what we have.
Rick Boyd: So he is presented primarily as son in the book of Hebrews
Rick Boyd: from the very beginning, and he's not just, son. He's the archetypal.
Rick Boyd: I guess, son. More than that, though.
Rick Boyd: Yeah, because he is God.
Rick Boyd: and there's no question in Chapter one. He's.
Andy Miller III: Through whom all things are made. Yeah.
Rick Boyd: Exactly. That's exactly right.
Rick Boyd: And so, and plus the fact that that I believe, chapter 5, verse 8,
Rick Boyd: reinforces the eternity
Rick Boyd: of the sun.
Rick Boyd: Because Hebrews 5, 8, reads, although, being a son, he learned the obedience from the things he suffered.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Rick Boyd: But the way, although being
Rick Boyd: a son, is written.
Rick Boyd: it's a present part is simple.
Rick Boyd: It indicates existence, ontology.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, so.
Rick Boyd: Though he's forever been a son.
Rick Boyd: and he always will be.
Rick Boyd: He is simply being
Rick Boyd: a son.
Rick Boyd: He took on flesh and learned just like we do
Rick Boyd: obedience from the things we suffer.
Rick Boyd: So so he is the Eternal Son who took on flesh. So when you read
Rick Boyd: chapter one, verse 4, and I'm glad you decided to read that.
Andy Miller III: I couldn't help myself. Yeah, yeah.
Rick Boyd: I just grace the Lord.
Rick Boyd: He became right.
Rick Boyd: That's the way verse 4 reach. Read, read, read that again.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. So he became as much superior to the angels
Andy Miller III: as a name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
Rick Boyd: Becoming something means it wasn't before.
Rick Boyd: When you become something. It's something you were not before right.
Andy Miller III: Okay, yeah, yeah, no. I agree. I struggle with that idea. You know, Rick, because I think it. Well, there, it sounds a little Aryan to me right right.
Rick Boyd: But but get this.
Rick Boyd: 5, 8. He is the eternal Son.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Rick Boyd: And the book here. This book of Hebrews is about
Rick Boyd: perfection of sun in the flesh.
Rick Boyd: and so he is the Eternal Son who took on flesh. That's why 5, 7 begins with the words, in the days of his flesh.
Andy Miller III: Okay. Okay.
Rick Boyd: So it has to do with Jesus, the the Eternal Son, becoming Son in the flesh.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Rick Boyd: Something he was not before.
Rick Boyd: and in the process of doing that he perfected sunshine
Rick Boyd: in the flesh.
Rick Boyd: so we can be perfected, but only in Christ.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Rick Boyd: And so helpful.
Rick Boyd: Praise the Lord! Why.
Andy Miller III: Let let me jump in. I know I know one of the things that when we talk about the obedience of Jesus, similar to the idea of Jesus being a son, and we being the arch, typical ark, boy rk, son. This the idea of Jesus being obedient, maybe some people might imply that he could have been disobedient. Nevertheless, like, do you get to this place where you think.
Andy Miller III: if Jesus was obedient, this might help us understand some of the
Andy Miller III: translations that are hard in other portions of Scripture, where there is objective and subjective genitive construction, so we would say, and this is a very controversial area at times where he's like the faith
Andy Miller III: faith in Jesus, or the faith or faithfulness of Jesus.
Andy Miller III: I find in general, when we think of the faithfulness of Jesus in Jesus' obedience. This communicates also, and more more than just, like thankful for the faith in Jesus like, I do trust Him, put my faith in Him, but that Jesus life is one that has gone ahead of us. And is this
Andy Miller III: tiny or M. Perfect, but is also, and I like us to get there, still existent at the right hand of the Father, exalted to the right hand of the Father, interceded on our behalf. The faithfulness of Jesus is something that's still
Andy Miller III: something that's operative for us now.
Rick Boyd: Absolutely, and you'd mentioned something. I may up. I may ruffle a little feathers here, but let me but let me explain it.
Rick Boyd: Was there a possibility for Jesus to fall and to fail and to be disobedient? Yes.
Rick Boyd: if there was no possibility for that, he did not become fully human. Thank you. But he did.
Rick Boyd: And yet the way Hebrews presents it.
Rick Boyd: For again, verse 8, of chapter 5, although being a son, he learned, and it's articular.
Rick Boyd: the obedience
Rick Boyd: from what? From the things that he suffered.
Rick Boyd: So there was an element of suffering that taught
Rick Boyd: the obedience. There's only one obedience.
Rick Boyd: and that's obedience to God.
Rick Boyd: and that is what he learned in the flesh, but very important.
Rick Boyd: In chapter 12 we have 1212, one through 13, the first, 13 verses of chapter 12
Rick Boyd: says a lot about sonship about being a son or daughter of God.
Rick Boyd: But there's a particular word that's used.
Rick Boyd: and it's discipline.
Rick Boyd: Hmm!
Rick Boyd: This word, this Greek word paideia.
Rick Boyd: and this Greek word.
Rick Boyd: This is amazing. This Greek word is what the child of God must endure. According to the text of Hebrew.
Rick Boyd: He boobs.
Rick Boyd: but it's never used of Jesus.
Rick Boyd: So Jesus learned obedience from the things he suffered.
Rick Boyd: but he didn't need to be disciplined.
Andy Miller III: Ok? He, still.
Rick Boyd: Had to learn.
Rick Boyd: We need the discipline.
Rick Boyd: We need correction as we run the race with perseverance. There are things in us that are lame
Rick Boyd: the egg.
Rick Boyd: It's not that's not slang, oh, so lame, but actually something that's out of. So something that's wrong in us. There are things daily that we see that need transformation, that God can do it.
Rick Boyd: and he's willing to do it if we are willing.
Rick Boyd: But that, in fact, that's what versus 12 and 13 of chapter 12 are about that if we participate with God in His discipline.
Rick Boyd: he will heal what is lame in us. Jesus didn't have that
Rick Boyd: Jesus fully human.
Rick Boyd: Chapter 4. Says, tempted in every way, we are yet without sin.
Andy Miller III: Without sin.
Rick Boyd: He lived the fully human life.
Rick Boyd: but he didn't need correction.
Rick Boyd: and he perfected
Rick Boyd: humanity, predicted, perfected the human.
Rick Boyd: And so we then run the same race.
Rick Boyd: but we do it, fixing our eyes on Jesus, who is.
Rick Boyd: And this is the way the text reads the pioneer and the perfecter of the faith.
Rick Boyd: It's not our faith.
Rick Boyd: it's not faith in general, it is the faith. What faith?
Rick Boyd: Read. Chapter 11.
Rick Boyd: We've just come through a whole chapter of by faith, able by faith, Enic by faith, Noah by faith, Abraham, and on and on and on and on. It's the same faith. But the thing is.
Rick Boyd: they lived by faith.
Rick Boyd: looking forward
Rick Boyd: to the coming of Jesus, and it says, all of these died without receiving the promise.
Rick Boyd: and they would not be made perfect
Rick Boyd: apart from us.
Rick Boyd: or God had something better in mind for us. It's the coming of Jesus, so that Jesus can be the pioneer in the perfect
Rick Boyd: of defect.
Rick Boyd: That's who he is.
Rick Boyd: So he lived a fully human life.
Rick Boyd: and he's the one that we then, under the discipline of God as Father.
Rick Boyd: We run the race as well, and as we cooperate with God's discipline, it's a hard thing to to hear.
Rick Boyd: but as we cooperate with his discipline.
Rick Boyd: what is lame in us is actually being.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen. Oh, Rick, this is beautiful! I love just a way that we're seeing how these images, which might not be a part of the common parlance of our regular
Andy Miller III: kind of Christian culture might be something that invigorates our orthodoxy. It gives us an opportunity to express things in a way that shows the victorious life like we we often talk about here in the hallways, Wesley Biblical Seminary that we don't want to just talk about us getting our sins forgiven, and then, you know, we'll get it. Go to heaven. Someday, when we die. Not that we don't believe in such things. We could. We could pull out together.
Andy Miller III: instead. It's this full, the opportunity, the the the gospel message is opportunity for the full restoration of humanity
Andy Miller III: back into the image for which we were created. So I think, like the this language and thinking of this is the focus of Hebrews, is helpful. I want to read averse from a hymn, and then I'll say, before I ask a question about Mel Kizadick, I want to give you a little warning. I'm coming from Melchizedek so, but it's a great him. That! And honestly it could sound every now and then before I even had this this foundation. Honestly, Rick, some of the influence you've been on me
Andy Miller III: to think through this. It almost sounded pantheistic at times, and maybe there are some parts about it, but it's joyful, joyful. The third verse says, this, thou art giving and forgiving, ever blessing, ever bless, wellspring of the joy of living ocean, depth of happy rest.
Andy Miller III: thou, our Father.
Andy Miller III: Christ, our brother.
Andy Miller III: All who live in love are Thine. Teach us how to love each other, lift us to the joy divine. There we have it. We have this this image of Christ our brother. Now, one of the ways that this is this contrast is made comes through this interesting chapter. It will when verse 7, verse 7, chapter 7, and
Andy Miller III: and then moving a little bit. Well, basically it comes. A little ahead of that in Chapter 6, where there's kind of a introduction of the idea of Mel Kizad. But there's this character, Mel Kizode.
Andy Miller III: Jesus is contrasted with Melchizedek, based upon this image of of him being a son. But help us understand how that contrast
Andy Miller III: is explicated.
Rick Boyd: Now you're talking about a contrast between Jesus and Melchizedek.
Andy Miller III: Am I wrong? There.
Rick Boyd: Yeah, it's not a contrast. It's a comparison.
Andy Miller III: So I was. I said, Okay, forgive me. Wrong word.
Rick Boyd: That's okay. But
Rick Boyd: the the thing about the the Melchizedek
Rick Boyd: Jesus comparison.
Rick Boyd: Jesus is high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Andy Miller III: Gotcha.
Rick Boyd: But notice. No, Kizza deck is never called High Priest.
Rick Boyd: He is priest.
Rick Boyd: and I think that's significant
Rick Boyd: because Melchizedek is priest.
Rick Boyd: doesn't. There's no beginning and no ending. There's no genealogy. There's that's what we see at the beginning of Chapter 7
Rick Boyd: is without mother, without father, because he's not presented that way.
Rick Boyd: And Jesus same way.
Rick Boyd: without mother, without father, without genealogy. It's not about the biological
Rick Boyd: legacy of Jesus.
Rick Boyd: It is about the faith legacy
Rick Boyd: of you.
Rick Boyd: Those.
Andy Miller III: Okay. Okay.
Rick Boyd: Follow him in faith.
Rick Boyd: Melchizedek was a priest with the forever priesthood.
Rick Boyd: But Jesus is high priest.
Andy Miller III: Okay. Okay.
Rick Boyd: And he's forever high Priest, and you made mention of.
Rick Boyd: and I think, through the hymn, but Jesus being
Rick Boyd: our forever salvation, I mean, he's the one who saves, which is 7, 25.
Rick Boyd: It's in that same chapter.
Rick Boyd: But this is one of those words that can be translated. Number well, a couple of different ways.
Rick Boyd: palm.
Rick Boyd: whence also Jesus is able to save
Rick Boyd: some translation safe for all time.
Rick Boyd: But the King James says to the uttermost.
Rick Boyd: and I believe, because it's the word Pontelus
Rick Boyd: and
Rick Boyd: the
Rick Boyd: cognate
Rick Boyd: tell us.
Rick Boyd: Teleos.
Rick Boyd: these mean, perfect, or complete, or end or goal.
Rick Boyd: that Jesus is able to sing
Rick Boyd: completely.
Rick Boyd: and we talk in in our tradition about entire sanctification.
Rick Boyd: And it is the ministry, the ongoing ministry, because he lives to make intercession
Rick Boyd: for those coming to go through him.
Rick Boyd: that it is as an ongoing ministry of sanctification
Rick Boyd: that Jesus has now.
Rick Boyd: for all those who are willing to follow after
Rick Boyd: 2 distinct verses
Rick Boyd: in chapter 2, verse 11 and chapter 10, verse 14.
Rick Boyd: This, the the wording is identical
Rick Boyd: for those who are being sanctified.
Rick Boyd: and it's an ongoing, it's present participant.
Rick Boyd: and it's passive. So those who are being sanctified that Jesus is the pioneer
Rick Boyd: of the salvation
Rick Boyd: of all those, some of many sons and daughters. The next verse says, for both, the one sanctifying.
Rick Boyd: referring to Jesus.
Rick Boyd: and those being sanctified
Rick Boyd: are from one. Therefore he's not ashamed, called them brothers. That's chapter 2,
Rick Boyd: and then chapter 10.
Rick Boyd: And this is a grade, verse 14,
Rick Boyd: for by one offering.
Rick Boyd: and this is, I believe, the offering of the whole life of Jesus
Rick Boyd: by one offering
Rick Boyd: he has perfected. It's perfect tense.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Rick Boyd: Which means it's a completed event.
Rick Boyd: He has perfected
Rick Boyd: continuously those being sanctified.
Rick Boyd: So we have both a completed event
Rick Boyd: and an ongoing issue which is sanctification.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Rick Boyd: So in Christ's
Rick Boyd: life, in the flesh as sun.
Rick Boyd: he has perfected
Rick Boyd: those who are being sanctified.
Rick Boyd: and I hate to keep bouncing around here. But you need the full context of this. That's why we need about 5 h with the.
Andy Miller III: I know we don't need 5 h. You do this, and how many hours? 40 h of lecturing that you're doing on Hebrews this this semester. So.
Rick Boyd: Something like.
Andy Miller III: That's not even enough.
Rick Boyd: Well, because I'm teaching the method. I don't have time to dig into this stuff. But this, this is great. In chapter 2, verse 3.
Rick Boyd: Yeah, there is a reference to so great a salvation. Yes.
Rick Boyd: if we neglect so great a salvation.
Rick Boyd: if we understand that without getting too much further into the depth of this
Rick Boyd: I believe in, in, just in my study.
Rick Boyd: that that great salvation is actually the relationship
Rick Boyd: that comes through Christ, our relationship to God as Father.
Rick Boyd: where we are actually the sons and daughters of God. And that's how God has spoken to us in these last days. Yes, yes, so in the person of Jesus. He has spoken in the form of sonship
Rick Boyd: to where we can now receive this great salvation.
Rick Boyd: but we better not neglect it.
Rick Boyd: because, according to Chapter 12,
Rick Boyd: if anyone does not remain under discipline of God the Father.
Rick Boyd: if we choose. This is too hard. I'm not going to do it.
Rick Boyd: And that's often the case. If people turn off the pathway.
Rick Boyd: we are not genuine sons and daughters, we are illegitimate, is what it says.
Rick Boyd: So Christ gives us all we need by the presence of the Holy Spirit.
Rick Boyd: but we have the responsibility of continuing to run the race.
Rick Boyd: I've used this example a couple of times I'll stop with this.
Rick Boyd: I I can think of 2 New Testament examples of running a race.
Rick Boyd: We've got first Corinthians, 9
Rick Boyd: in a race. Many run, but only one gets the prize, Paul says.
Rick Boyd: so run in such a way as to get the prize
Rick Boyd: in Hebrews. Chapter 12.
Rick Boyd: The writer doesn't care about us
Rick Boyd: winning the race. That's not the point of the racing analogy.
Rick Boyd: We have to finish the race.
Rick Boyd: Christ has won the race.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Rick Boyd: And in a very.
Rick Boyd: I don't like to use this this analog, this part of it.
Rick Boyd: because it's too common
Rick Boyd: for the holiness of Christ.
Rick Boyd: but we're on his team.
Andy Miller III: you know.
Rick Boyd: He's so much more than just. You know the captain of our team.
Rick Boyd: But anyway, he has won the race. But we have to keep running.
Rick Boyd: Yes.
Rick Boyd: and and he gives us a strength to do that. And one more thing for your brother
Rick Boyd: about this.
Rick Boyd: There's there's another theme that runs throughout the whole book of Hebrews.
Rick Boyd: and that is the word encouragement.
Rick Boyd: In chapter 3, verse 13,
Rick Boyd: encourage one another daily as long as it is called today.
Rick Boyd: so that none of you would be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
Rick Boyd: That's just one of a number of occurrences in Chapter 10, when we are told to not stop meeting, to not
Rick Boyd: quit meeting together as summer in the habit of doing, but encourage
Rick Boyd: one another, and all the more, as you see today approachable. This concept of encouraging.
Rick Boyd: I believe I believe so strongly
Rick Boyd: what running the race? We're not running it alone. I preaches and chapel. I think you might have been gone that day.
Andy Miller III: Forgive me!
Rick Boyd: Oh, that's okay. That's just that's okay.
Rick Boyd: and I don't think it was recorded either. So, but but the essence of it is, we do not run this race alone.
Rick Boyd: and so we need to be encouraging one another that is, calling one another alongside.
Rick Boyd: saying, Let's keep going. Don't quit. I know it's hard now, and you and I both know we have students
Rick Boyd: who are undergoing terrible things.
Rick Boyd: We have a student in Haiti right now.
Rick Boyd: He's living outside of Port a prince.
Rick Boyd: I just had a conversation with him a week ago.
Rick Boyd: He's living outside of port, a prince which is all kinds of things are going on there. Gangs are running
Rick Boyd: like that city.
Andy Miller III: Awful situation.
Rick Boyd: And even though he and his brothers and sisters
Rick Boyd: in Christ
Rick Boyd: are safe in the compound where they are.
Rick Boyd: but
Rick Boyd: they get their supplies from Port a prince.
Rick Boyd: and so they don't have access to supplies.
Rick Boyd: plus the fact
Rick Boyd: that Jean Marie's family
Rick Boyd: is still in port aprints.
Rick Boyd: and they need to get out, and they can't.
Rick Boyd: Now. Those are dire situations, but we keep running the race.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Rick Boyd: And we encourage one another. We pray for one another, we help as the Lord leads us financially material in other ways. You know
Rick Boyd: he's called us to do that because we're running the race together
Rick Boyd: right? And I think that's good.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, it's be. And this is kind of the image of what the the so-called faith Hall of Fame is about is like. By faith. These people anticipated something objectively that could come. The the example that I preach on recently, by faith, Joseph anticipated
Andy Miller III: that his bones, you know, would make it. I I I'm I could find the the passage, but altogether like he believed something was going to happen even beyond this life. And so we're we're kind of pointing to the reality of what Jesus has already won. Jesus has already accomplished. But yet there is this progressive dimension of what's happening along the way. So not only has that happened, but because Jesus is enthroned at the right hand of the Father
Andy Miller III: as a pioneer and perfector, he is still working, and when the wild ideas which I think I hadn't thought of till probably 10 or 15 years ago
Andy Miller III: well, into serving as a full time pastor.
Andy Miller III: was that Jesus still has a body.
Andy Miller III: Jesus is like his perfected or resurrected body
Andy Miller III: is at the right hand of the Father interceding.
Andy Miller III: Behalf like this is still something that is going on.
Rick Boyd: You know, one of one of the parts of that
Rick Boyd: and I think there's evidence I need to look into this more
Rick Boyd: is the concept of intercession from 7, 25.
Rick Boyd: You know where he's living to make intercession for those who are coming to God.
Rick Boyd: Because I I'm wondering if intercession. I I'm thinking
Rick Boyd: intercession is not merely a one-way street.
Rick Boyd: Hmm.
Rick Boyd: Jesus is at the right hand of the throne of God.
Rick Boyd: the right hand of his Father.
Rick Boyd: is he just offering up prayers to his Father?
Rick Boyd: It seems like Jesus. Ministry is more than that.
Rick Boyd: The intercessory ministry is 2 ways.
Rick Boyd: It is interceding for us with the Father. But it's also
Rick Boyd: talking to us.
Rick Boyd: It's directing us.
Rick Boyd: So all who are obedient to him.
Rick Boyd: he becomes the source of salvation.
Rick Boyd: That's that's chapter 5, verse 9.
Rick Boyd: And so it's his ministry is going both ways. It's not merely to intercede with the Father.
Rick Boyd: but it's also to speak to us to direct us, to lead us, to purify us, to sanctify us.
Rick Boyd: It's all of that. Jesus is very active. We need Him every moment of every day.
Rick Boyd: It's what Paul would say is being in crimes.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Andy Miller III: I
Andy Miller III: Rick, one of the things, I wonder is you? You've read anything that you can, and I know that you took a Sabbatical, where you just updated yourself, made sure you're aware of the most recent research on Hebrews.
Rick Boyd: Stuck behind me.
Andy Miller III: That's right, it's all there. Oh, I what's not? Not that it has to be, because because some people might say, Oh, all this sounds familiar. But I I think that there's a unique approach that you're bringing. What what is it that hasn't happened in book of the Book of Hebrew scholarship.
Andy Miller III: That that you're doing here. That's distinct.
Rick Boyd: Well, there, there are a couple of things. One is the the structure of the Book of Hebrews. I haven't seen anybody else who's identified this particular structure and structural relationships.
Rick Boyd: And actually, but you told me you wanted to talk to me. And this is what you wanted to talk about.
Rick Boyd: I've got an article that was in Journal of Inductive Biblical Studies. It's a it's a journal, and it was published, I believe, in January 2017, which is the it's called the role of Hebrews, 1 one through 4 in the Book of Hebrews.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Rick Boyd: That's one of the unique things is the fact that I see the structure. I can't get into it in detail, because we'll never get out of it. But I I think that's one of the things, the other being
Rick Boyd: that salvation itself
Rick Boyd: is sunshine.
Andy Miller III: Okay. Okay.
Rick Boyd: So we can be saved now.
Rick Boyd: but we are still in process of being saved. But we need to finish the race, and I know there's some theological traditions that would struggle with that.
Rick Boyd: Well.
Rick Boyd: better get used to it. That's what the text says. You know we are saved, and we are being saved.
Rick Boyd: and those 2 things, I think, are probably the 2 that
Rick Boyd: you know there have been like, I said, all the books behind me, except that top shelf. You see, Bart Carl Barton on down with theology and mission and various other things, but
Rick Boyd: starting up below that top shelf, that's all Hebrews, and it actually wraps around the room.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Rick Boyd: And so I've got a lot of Hebrew stuff I've read, tried to read everything on Hebrews. And that that's a big task.
Rick Boyd: But regardless of that, I've seen scholars like Gb. Cared. Yeah, sure. And Lincoln Hearst.
Rick Boyd: who was Gb. Cared's student.
Rick Boyd: Those 2 have written on this kind of thing.
Rick Boyd: but they didn't develop it.
Rick Boyd: And I'm developing this in a much fuller way about
Rick Boyd: not only what what this has to do with, but the implications of it.
Rick Boyd: And that's where I'm going with all of this that I think can really help the church.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Rick Boyd: You know I'm taking. I'm taking my very technical dissertation.
Rick Boyd: Yeah. And I'm turning it into something that hopefully will be helpful beyond the Academy. Although the Academy is in view of this.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Andy Miller III: Well, for for sure. Well, well, brother, I appreciate your time and and your passion for this, and it just a little bit of a taste here that people may get of Dr. Boyd's ministry and his dedication to Studying God's Word. But one thing you might not see here is just dedicate. Well, actually, you did. You heard his passion for our students, who are in difficult situations, but serving students and and wanting to
Andy Miller III: communicate the depth and power of God toward. I think, Rick, this idea is not something we hear a lot salvation as sonship. This is an emphasis that within the whole administration speaks volume. I mean, it just fits right in with the full restoration of us being able to be as as you said. Oh, I can't remember where it is, save to the uttermost, save completely. You know this this picture? Where is what? Versus that.
Rick Boyd: 7, 7, 25.
Andy Miller III: Oh, awesome!
Rick Boyd: 7, 7, 25, and it is the perfection. Again, it's this word perfection that is absent from that first verse.
Rick Boyd: but I think, or second verse, but I think intentionally, I think that's the point
Rick Boyd: that God has spoken perfection.
Rick Boyd: that is completion, perfect salvation.
Rick Boyd: and that salvation is the relationship.
Rick Boyd: No. And the writer actually stops his argument
Rick Boyd: in chapter 5. Now I have much more to say about this. No pizza thing, and what's going on. But
Rick Boyd: you're not ready because you are dull in hearing.
Rick Boyd: and so he's trying to get their attention, saying you are in danger
Rick Boyd: of losing that relationship
Rick Boyd: because you're you're talking about turning off.
Rick Boyd: I've just. I'm working through my Hebrews class right now in Ibs in that passage 5, 11 to 6, 8, 5, 11 to 6 20.
Rick Boyd: And so I'm I'm very. I'm embedded in that right now.
Rick Boyd: We are saved now.
Rick Boyd: Yes.
Rick Boyd: if we receive Christ, but we need to keep running the race. That's why it's so essential for us to finish the race.
Andy Miller III: Beautiful.
Andy Miller III: Rick. One thing I often do at my Podcast is is called more to the story, and and I think that that fits in with this emphasis of what you're saying saved and being saved, there's more, there's more coming. We need to finish the race.
Andy Miller III: But I also like to think of it as this. For my guests? I asked more to the story question. So is there more the story of Rick than maybe some of your students or other people here on a regular basis. I know you have some hobbies or some things you enjoy doing. Tell us a little bit a little bit more about Rick. What's more to the story of Rick.
Rick Boyd: I when I was born again? And I I came to this realization about a year in.
Rick Boyd: We're living in Havana.
Rick Boyd: and
Rick Boyd: You may not be familiar with this terminology, but puddle jumpers.
Rick Boyd: These are these tiny planes, you know. They're bigger than the bigger than assess number, you know they only seat about 20 people.
Rick Boyd: and that was the only way to fly anywhere in the country was, take a puddle jumper
Rick Boyd: from Urban's Willard Airport champions, Willard Airport up to O'hare Connect, and then I could go to Albuquerque. Then I could go to Phoenix or Seattle, or Orlando, wherever I flew all over the place.
Rick Boyd: We were coming in back into Champaigner Band. I was done with a business trip.
Rick Boyd: and
Rick Boyd: PA
Rick Boyd: the the plane, because it's so light is jumping around
Rick Boyd: because of the buffeting winds in Illinois, Central Illinois. There's nothing to stop the winds.
Rick Boyd: and I'm looking around. I'm I'm about. I don't know like I said, about a year old in the Lord, and I'm looking around at my fellow passengers, and I can see white knuckles.
Rick Boyd: You know. People are holding on for dear life.
Rick Boyd: and I was filled with peace.
Andy Miller III: Interesting.
Rick Boyd: Because
Rick Boyd: if we make it back, praise the Lord, I get to be with Jodie again.
Rick Boyd: But if we die in the plane, praise the Lord, I'm in the presence of the Lord.
Rick Boyd: and I had so much peace. Well, that brother has dominated my life.
Rick Boyd: When I got too old
Rick Boyd: I became injured, and and such to play softball. So it was no longer a minister. I coach for a while, but
Rick Boyd: Palm.
Rick Boyd: I still had interest in that.
Rick Boyd: But really
Rick Boyd: my time is spent in the word. I I love doing that, Jodi. And I'll go to movies from time to time. We just saw a movie called Cabrini.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Rick Boyd: And that's an it's an interesting movie.
Rick Boyd: It's about a nun who had.
Andy Miller III: Oh, right!
Rick Boyd: Okay, yeah.
Rick Boyd: And there are some. There are some issues with that that I have.
Rick Boyd: We like to. We like to watch movies. We don't go to them very often. We went to this one
Rick Boyd: recently, just to kind of.
Andy Miller III: I'm a sports fan, too, right? Like you. You're go pulling for the line. I here in the Nca tournament. Right? Yeah.
Rick Boyd: That. Yeah, that's my, that's my Alma mater.
Rick Boyd: My engineering degree is from Illinois. And
Rick Boyd: yeah, I got a really good engineering school. But yeah, I'm I'm I follow sports. I've I'm a Minnesota Vikings fan and so I've never known the sweet taste
Rick Boyd: I suffered through.
Rick Boyd: Yeah, I won't talk about that I suffer. I suffered through all 4 super bowl losses, but the last one was in January of 1,977.
Rick Boyd: So we're coming up on the 50 year mark of even going to the Super Bowl.
Rick Boyd: I'm a Vikings fan.
Rick Boyd: but I don't watch any of the games.
Rick Boyd: and I'm a lion, I fan, and I don't really watch any of those games. I've got too much to do.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, well.
Rick Boyd: Like, thank you.
Andy Miller III: But you but you, I'll say, like you're being humble there, and and very godly. But you do know what's going on in those teams, and you know the the Vikings. It'll be interesting this year if they draft a quarterback, you know, we'll see what happened. They got a good coach. My mom is a Vikings fan, even though I was a bears fan purple Pete people, eaters all of that. Yeah, very close, like I'm I'm very well aware. So we'll see what happens for your teams.
Rick Boyd: How did your mom become a Vikings.
Andy Miller III: Oh, she's from that region. So she well, she lived her my grandparents were savage army officers. They moved around they had several appointments in the Upper Midwest
Andy Miller III: South Dakota, North Dakota. My grandmother is from Wisconsin, so I think that that was part of it is that when she was, and she graduated high school in Williston, North Dakota. So she was in that in that region. So I think probably that has something to do with it? But my my parents used to my dad would dress me up in bears, clothes, and then I would somehow pull away. In the second half I'd be dressed up in Vikings clothes so.
Rick Boyd: Yeah, I I was a transplant. I became a Vikings fan. When I grew up in California.
Andy Miller III: But.
Rick Boyd: When I went to high school it was in Saint Joseph, Illinois bears country.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.
Rick Boyd: And so I was the only Vikings fan in my high school.
Rick Boyd: and I that's when we lost our fourth super bowl
Rick Boyd: and so I I took it on the chin I actually just heard. Never mind, it's another story.
Andy Miller III: Well, well, Fran Tartington wasn't exactly the rk, Goss, but is close to it. Well, Rick, thanks so much for your time for your passion for the word. And look for if you want more of this, check us out at Wesley Biblical Seminary, and even if you audit a class. Learn the inductive Bible study method. Means a lot to me, Ricky. Take time for us today.
Rick Boyd: Thank you, brother.