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Long Game: A Heated Rivalry Podcast is a re-watch and deep-dive podcast dedicated to Heated Rivalry, hosted by Declan and Silvan. In each episode, we revisit key moments across the series, unpacking the slow-burn tension, character development, and emotional beats that make the heated rivalry world so compelling. Through thoughtful discussion, close reading, and a fan-informed lens, we explore themes of competition, intimacy, identity, and growth over time, celebrating not just the heat of the rivalry, but the long game it takes to truly understand these characters and their relationship.
New episodes published every Sunday
Declan (00:00)
Hi everyone, welcome back to the Long Game Heated Rivalry podcast. You're joined by me, Declan and of course Sylvan And this is part four of our Heated Rivalry sort of review, read through, in which we've been comparing the elements of the book to the TV show. Now, last time we got up to the point of the tuna melt scene, and we're moving on to some juicy details that involve a very well-known character called Rose. Sylvan, what?
Were you thinking about these chapters?
Silvan (00:31)
I just love that you mentioned tuna and juicy in the same sentence.
Declan (00:37)
⁓ I regret it already.
Silvan (00:39)
I just know how you feel about tuna spit and that was a very big chunk of what we spoke about last time.
Declan (00:46)
Yeah, and apparently everyone does now, so great.
Silvan (00:49)
All the vegetarians know too. ⁓ but yeah, so where we're at the book is chapter 14. And this is the introduction of Rose. Now, anyone who's been listening to our review of the TV show, ⁓ it feels like does it feel like a long time ago now that we did that?
Declan (01:08)
Yeah, it feels
it is like a long time. It's like months now. So yeah, this has been a long time ago. and whenever I was rereading this, I was like, ⁓ this rose is slightly different from the rose I've gotten used to. ⁓ what were your sort of thoughts on that?
Silvan (01:27)
I know what you mean because I love the character of Rose. I love TV show rose and I love book rose, but book rose feels a little bit different. I feel like TV show rose.
was a bit more iconic for me. She really pushed shame for me, and I love her for that.
Declan (01:47)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. She plays a much more active role, you could say, in Shane's sort of ⁓ coming out. ⁓ I also feel that she's a bit more charismatic in the TV show, but that could just be due or just could be to do with the way that the actress plays her. ⁓ but I do find that she is a bit like in the book, it's sort of like
It's described that she's a really like interesting person and they get on great, but the show actually does the dialogue and shows you that she actually is this kind of person. So you can buy into it a lot more that Rose is this really cool person who Shane feels quite comfortable around. And yeah, I I just think that she's ⁓ a really like
magnetic character in the show. ⁓ in the book she is still important and I do like her as a character. I do think she's a good influence for Shane. ⁓ but I wasn't like, wow, I love Rose. It was like Rose serves her purpose and I'm glad that they didn't turn her into like a typical female villain for an MM romance book. So yeah.
Silvan (03:03)
I totally hear that and I think for me I still love Book Rose, but this is where for me actors can really elevate material that they're given. So I think the actress who plays Rose, I think Sophie Nelise, I'm hoping I'm saying that right, like her chemistry with Hudson Williams is just so magnetic, like you said. And together they really are that couple that you are
I I'm kind of rooting for them in a way. I know we want Ilya and Shane to be endgame, but I could really see Shane and Rose together.
Declan (03:41)
Yeah, and I think that's sort of done deliberately. And I think we talked about this in a previous podcast where they have basically given each of the guys their perfect dream gear for them that suits them perfectly. And so I think it lends weight to the fact that they are willing to set them aside to pursue each other instead. ⁓ I think it's like a a almost like a proof of their love in a sense of like
You're willing to set aside this amazing person that is more or less made for you ⁓ to live your truth and to be in love with the person that you're actually in love with. ⁓ it also, you know, cuts that argument off at the knees of the idea that you just need to meet the right girl and you can settle down and, you know, this is just a phase and you know, this you'll grow out of this and you'll marry down you'll marry and you'll settle down and everything will be fine. Where this is basically proving that.
Okay, you do have the perfect person in front of you. You have the potential to settle down and someone who wants you in every way that you want. ⁓ and it just doesn't work. It doesn't work because it's not who you are as a person, it's not how you're built. ⁓ so yeah, I think she serves a very important purpose, both her and Svetlana, I think. ⁓ though Svetlana more in the T V show than in the book percent.
Silvan (04:58)
Yeah, and we get Svetlana's introduction ⁓ a couple of chapters later, so I definitely want to get into that because Svetlana is a complete different character in in in the book. But coming back to Rose then. So the introduction to Rose is quite similar to the TV show in that, you know, we meet Rose in the restaurant or like restaurant slash sort of bar kind of thing.
And it does feel quite similar and the dialogue is actually quite similar in how they meet. So it's a very, it's a very it there's a meet cute that's memorable there. However, for me, and I know we've had comments in the past about sort of me picking apart the language, but that's just what I do, and that's what I'm interested in. I'm interested in the this is the English literature like student in me picking apart the language.
Declan (05:34)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (05:50)
And here we see Rose talking about, you know, the fritters or or the chips, I guess, in in or the fries in in the T V show when she tells Shane about, you know, I can't eat them all. But the difference in the book is then Rose goes on to say, like, sorry, she said after she swallowed, I'm a pig. I'm Rose, by the way, she said, holding out her perfectly manicured hands.
Declan (06:00)
I don't know.
Silvan (06:17)
There's something about a woman calling herself a pig for eating that I take umbrage with, whether it's a woman or not. I feel like we've moved on from self-fat shaming or using food in a negative way to create an impression of the character to somebody else. And so for me, it's I'm not criticizing Rachel Reed at all, but
I just I took a moment to stop at that point and I underlined it, literally underlined it, and I thought, okay, what's the what's the purpose of that? Because in the T V show we get a different type of language that's used in the script by Jacob. So and I'm not quoting this specifically of course, but I think sh Rose talks about like how if she eats any more of these fries she's not going to be able to fit into her costume.
the following day or the following morning. And for me, and I know we talked about this when we covered the TV show, for me that was a feminist commentary on beauty standards on women, specifically women in that industry. And I think that was such a smart way to demonstrate the same thing, but in a different way. That was a bit more uplifting and affirming.
Declan (07:17)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think that is sort of Jacob Tierney's touch. ⁓ like I imagine he obviously would have read that line, looked at it, could have translated directly on D script. But he is obviously taking a moment to go, I think we can rephrase this to make it have a bit more of a meaning and more in line with her character as well, because someone that's very like progressive and go with the flow, I have
So many gay friends, 80% of the men outdated are being gay, yada, yada. Like someone more self-aware would not make that comment, or with that level of self-awareness would not really make that comment. ⁓ and but then again, it could just be a throwaway line. It was never meant to be taken seriously, and it's only becoming highlighted now because of the way that Jacob Tierney has reused it to give greater meaning and greater context to the kind of character that Rose is.
Because it actually made me like her more in the show for her having like addressed the fact that she's aware of the faults in her industry. But she sort of was like, I'm trying to work within it and do my own little rebellious parts to, you know, fight back against the system that she's in. ⁓ but yeah, it's good that you picked up on it. I think it's interesting that there can be such a difference between two lines in the way that they've been written, even though the message is essentially the same. It's I shouldn't be eating this because
⁓ I don't want to be too big for whatever reason. ⁓ yeah, interesting, Sylvan.
Silvan (09:12)
And you're right, it could have been just a throwaway line that didn't really warrant this much attention from two people reading a book like years after it's been published. But to me there was something that caught me. ⁓ And something you talked about earlier was about
Declan (09:28)
Yeah.
Silvan (09:31)
you know, just meeting the right girl. And this is very much what runs through this chapter. You get this narrative from Shane and he talks about it in this chapter on page one seventy two. And you know, there's like a line that says Shane liked a girl. And I'm like, ha. They're there for Shane. And and can I be real here? As someone who obviously has come out now, but growing up with all that internally shame and
Wondering, am I gay, am I not? Am I maybe bi? Am I not? Am I other things? And that's not to say that, you know, being bi or asexual or anything like that is is any different. They don't struggle, of course they do, with coming to terms with who they are. But for me, I very much had a very similar narrative to Shane, where I was like, maybe I just haven't met the right woman. And there was a period in my life during my teen years where I thought.
Declan (10:25)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (10:30)
I I could get married to a woman, I could have kids, I could do that, I could have that traditional view of what a family would would would look like. And so I very much relate to how Shane is feeling here. And there's a lot of empathy I feel for Shane thinking I could still like a woman and just I just haven't met the right woman.
Declan (10:49)
Yeah. And it is I think quite common with gay men. Obviously, you're built up with the expectations that you're going to, you know, meet a guard, get married, have kids, get the house, white picket vents and all this. You're set up by society to want to travel that route. ⁓ or you you're not living your life fulfilled ⁓ in that sense.
And so the initial instinct as well is to just want to not have that be you because it's hard. Like it's hard being gay. No one no one wishes the aggro onto themselves that as a result of you being gay. ⁓ it's the most unfair element of the whole thing is that you're just treated differently for really what is not really that significant of a difference between people. You just happen to like the same sex, it's really nobody else's business, but society.
⁓ cultures and religions have just turned it into this big mission, this big question when it never really had to be. ⁓ and so you instinctually want to shy away from you know making your life more difficult. And if that means trying to convince yourself that you're this thing and that you can make this thing work, you know, you're gonna try it. I mean I tried it and it just
didn't ring true. It just wasn't it just wasn't me. And yeah, sometimes you just need to try. And as soon as you find out, no, this is not gonna work. And that's the real thing you're after. It's the realization of this is just never gonna work. Like I'm never going to be able to do this in the long run. So I need to start accepting who I actually am instead of avoiding it, which is
Kind of the journey that Shane goes with ⁓ Rose, and he's just very lucky that he has someone who is empathetic and understanding enough to appreciate that he is trying and struggling through an i part of his identity that it's incredibly difficult for him to pin down and Rose has all that patience for him.
Silvan (13:11)
You're right, like Rose is the the perfect character to be able to sort of usher him through that and
And how many of us had girlfriends? And in fact I remember having a conversation with a group of guy male friends about how many of us had girlfriends growing up, even though we thought we might be gay and and how that changed over the years. And so it's I think it's quite a normal experience to have those thoughts still.
Declan (13:36)
Yeah, I mean it's such an important experience that Rachel Reed has captured in the book. The idea of having to at least try to, you know, fit in, to try to do the the expected thing. And I like that she chooses to do it with Shane because Shane is very much by the book. I don't want aggro. I want my life to be as smooth as possible and I don't deal well when
I'm throwing a curveball. And so it's important for him to explore this idea to maybe see if it'll could work with a woman, because this stuff of Ilya is pretty complicated and it's scaring me. And I'm obsessing over the consequences if things get out. So maybe I can try this instead, and that means I can step away from Ilya. Doesn't go very well, but he has to at least try, and I can understand that.
And understand that about his character.
Silvan (14:38)
Thank God it didn't, because we wouldn't have the rest of the book if it did. I know. There you go. We're gonna stop the series of book two, no more. now when Rachel Ree talks about Shane and Rose in you know when they start becoming a couple, they garner a lot of attention. I know that's the same in the TV show, but I feel like in the book.
Declan (14:43)
You know? And how rubbish would that be?
Silvan (15:07)
it felt like there were this bigger deal. Like it was they were like a the it couple. That's impression that I was getting. And to me, I don't know how much of a like tabloid star someone like Shane would be in Canada. And I I don't have any reference for that for Canadian hockey players. Like are they in the paparazzi a lot? Like are they getting, you know, hits on on TikTok because of who they're dating?
Declan (15:31)
Yeah. I
I would imagine it's kind of like a similar dynamic to like Scarlett Johansson and her husband. Like her husband is like famous to people who know of him, like SNL ⁓ sort of sketch comedian. ⁓ well known if you watch that stuff. But he could walk past a lot of people on the street and no one would recognize him. Whereas Scarlett Johansson, like you're getting recognized regardless of where you go, you're a superstar. I get the idea that Rose is that.
And that Shane is the sort of SNL comedian. He's the he's a sort of medium sort of celebrity, whereas she is like Tuppy Top celebrity. ⁓ so I do get the idea that they would have a bit of an obsession over whoever she would date, regardless. I think people would care less about Shane, it would be more like within the sort of sports sphere. And hockey is a very, very popular sport in Canada, obviously. So he would obviously still be a very well known celebrity there.
but definitely Rose being this international movie star lends a different dynamic to it. ⁓ but what I was sort of taken back by when comparing the book relationship to the f TV show, it was in the book, it seems like they date a lot longer. Like they are dating longer. ⁓ it's more of like a fine it's I feel like the time frames in the book.
come across as more significant. ⁓ like I think they're together for months. like they feel like a real couple ⁓ in the book. Whereas in the show, I get the idea that this is like still new. They're still sort of they're in the dating phase. Like they're being seen together, but they're in the dating phase. They're not like a couple. Whereas in the book it does feel like they've become a couple. And
Yeah, I think that's an interesting sort of difference in the way that's been told.
Silvan (17:37)
So I had the same impression. I felt like book, Shane and Rose were together for ages. And I've got the book in front of me, so I want to fact check this because our listeners will help us out with this. So when they meet is November 2016 in Montreal. And then the next chapter, which you know, we've got loads to talk about this chapter before we get into chapter 15, is s one week later.
Declan (18:04)
No way.
Silvan (18:05)
Yeah,
one week later Montreal and this is when they have the coming out ⁓ dialogue scene.
Declan (18:15)
That's crazy. Why does it feel so much longer?
Silvan (18:15)
Right.
That's what I was going to ask you. Because for me, it feels like they are such a good fit. And I feel like a lot does happen in that quote-unquote week. Because you know, from here we get them meeting, them hanging out, them getting paparazzi, we got the club here, you know, we get the introduction to her co-stars like Miles, and there's another person that we get introduced to. So I feel like a lot happens in this chapter, and it gives us the impression that it's because so much has happened.
It must take place over a longer period of time.
Declan (18:54)
That's very interesting. And I actually don't like that.
Silvan (18:58)
W what is that you don't like about it?
Declan (19:00)
I don't
I don't think there's realism in that. I don't I don't like when authors of MM romance books condense large events in succession of each other within a really short time frame in their books. ⁓ because in my head that's months. Like because it would be appropriate for b for it to be mumps. But it's not. ⁓
Silvan (19:24)
It's literally been a week.
Declan (19:29)
No. No. I don't like that.
Silvan (19:32)
And
yet we're convinced of it. It 'cause it it worked, it it did.
Declan (19:38)
Yeah.
Yeah. I mean that's some witchcraft that was worked there. I can't believe that. I was like I would have like bet money that it was months like like a few months or something like that. Not like a week. That's crazy. my god. Maybe I just need to sleep more. My perception time is terrible.
Silvan (19:46)
Rachel Reed was
And I think when it comes to the books, like I'm always sort of deferred to your judgment because you have read these books so many times. And that's why I had the because I had the book out, I was like, let me just check. Because I would have thought the same thing as well. But it's been a week.
Declan (20:12)
Yeah.
Yeah, I've
read that book three times. Like it's cra I can't believe that. Wow. Okay.
Silvan (20:28)
Do you know what I'm really scared of? I'm really scared of me making this. Well, everyone's going to correct me because I'm really scared I've made a mistake and I'm literally flipping through the pages as you're talking. Like, no, it definitely says one week later, because I will get roasted online if I've made this mistake, because it's it's a pretty significant mistake if I've misread. ⁓ but I'm pretty sure and feel free to correct me if I've got it wrong, but also validate me if I've got it right, people.
Declan (20:30)
Everyone's gonna correct me.
Yeah.
Yeah. ⁓
Silvan (20:54)
⁓ if if it is just been a week, please let us know because that's the impression I get from what's written.
Declan (21:02)
Yeah, that's very interesting that it is so condensed. Well that puts a different sort of context to it now that this is sort of like a whirlwind celebrity romance. Like it's just it's all very tabloid. It's all very ⁓ all for show, isn't it? In a sense, it's like plastered, it seems like a PR stunt. It's it has a much different sort of context to it because it's not real. It can't be real. They're not they're not together, they're not a couple, they're they're just
Silvan (21:23)
Mm.
Declan (21:32)
Two people that met a week ago, like yeah, it adds a completely different dynamic to that that sort of interaction.
Silvan (21:39)
I love that you said it's a PR thing because it feels very much in that time frame, not the quality of the relationship, of course. And in my head I was thinking like, because I'm a Swifty, I relate everything back to to to Miss Taylor, or Mrs. Taylor soon to be. and I was thinking like, is this like a Travis and Taylor kind of situation? I'm like, no, they've been together a long time now, and like because of the paparazzi and all that kind of stuff. I'm like, maybe this is like
when Taylor and Matty Heady were together and it was such a brief period of time that the fans and the public noticed they were obviously hooking up for a lot longer allegedly. And that's maybe what it feels more like. It feels like this is, you know, the the Matty Heady Taylor Swift era.
Declan (22:16)
Yeah.
Yeah, sort of whirlwind, extremely public, ⁓ burned out fast sort of thing. ⁓ yeah, yeah. Even though there's like not passion now for Shane. I think honestly, if it's gonna be a PR stun, I think it's a PR stunt for Shane for himself. ⁓ to be like, This is what it could be, this is what it's like, and this is what I could have. ⁓ if I had this like superstar girlfriend. Like, yeah, very curious.
Silvan (22:30)
Mm.
Declan (22:54)
completely different spin for me. The the time frame makes a big difference in how you I perceive that relationship. ⁓ yeah. Interesting. Yeah, because like
Silvan (23:04)
I feel like I've just shattered something for you. I feel like we could have we could have
suspended the disbelief for a little longer for you.
Declan (23:11)
Because like she is essentially a stranger. Like, how much time does he truly have to spend with her ⁓ in that time frame within a week? And then he's coming out to her? Hmm.
Silvan (23:26)
But if we think about the TV show, we get the introduction of Rose and all of that happening within the same episode. I think it's episode four, I could be wrong, but I think it's episode four. I think it's tot it's called it's literally called Rose. But it's the same thing, but I think because we only have six episodes, time feels a little different because it spans so many years in the TV show as well as the book.
Declan (23:49)
Yeah.
Yeah, the TV show, you're used to large jumps in time. So you get the idea that they're spending a lot more time together and they have like affectionate couple y like sayings for each other. Like they they don't just like call each other Shane and Rose, like they have like affectionate names. Yeah. Hmm, a week. Mm. Hmm
Silvan (24:14)
A lot
can happen in a week. And what but what does happen in the span of a week is the club. So we got the club scene here. And I think this is where having the medium of a TV show really changes your interpretation of of these scenes here. Because, you know, we get the same setup to going to the club, like Ilya's pissed or something and he's like to his roommate like
Declan (24:17)
Not that much.
Yeah.
Silvan (24:43)
Get up, we're going out, kind of thing. And so we get that same setup, but what you don't get in that scene is the tone. So Ilya says, you know, it says Ilya sighed and he sat himself on the edge of the bed. Nothing, fuck this, I need to get laid, let's go out. And then somebody else is like, I don't know who it is. Ryan Carmichael. Is Ryan important? Should I know who Ryan Carmichael is later?
Declan (25:08)
Ryan no, he's not important. Only Ryan Price is important.
Silvan (25:10)
Okay. Good. There's thank
you. Why is she using the same name for people, for different people? It's confusing. you know, and and Ryan says like at when Ilias swept his hand in the direction of the large window, where in fucking Montreal we've we find a club, come on. Now however, I'm saying this in the tone that Connor's story acted it out in the scene. If I were reading this without the context of the TV show, I'm not sure that it would have the same
Declan (25:17)
No question now.
Silvan (25:39)
Gravitas as it did.
Declan (25:43)
Yeah, it's the tone is certainly different. I found whenever I read the book the first time that this was like a real gut punch moment. ⁓ whenever they were in the club together, like it was like like frustrating and annoying and also sad because it's like why are you two doing this to each other? Like it's really it's kinda horrible. ⁓ and so it's quite f it's a frustrating chapter to read. ⁓ whereas in the
book, it's a bit or not rather in the TV show, it's a bit more tragic. ⁓ and a lot more charged in a sense. It's almost like a there's almost like a revenge sort of plot going on in the in the show. ⁓ and there is an element of that in the book, but I just feel like the the book has that gut punch moment as well, but kinda in a different way, you could say, and like a frustrating way for the reader.
Silvan (26:37)
You're right, it feels a lot more electric in the TV show. And that's probably also couple by the way they shot it and the All the Things She Said song, you know, blasting us earlier enters the club in the TV show. Like that to me, I was like, my god, like literally, I was like, I can't believe they used this song. You know, and so you you almost get that electric sort of feel. I think what the book does for the club scene is it sets more context and it gives more
Declan (26:53)
Yeah.
Silvan (27:06)
I get more information about the club scene from the book than I did the TV show. So for example, for Shane, Shane talks about the clothes he's wearing in the club. And I know this comes in a little bit later when he hires in in the in the bar scene in Tampa where he hires the stylist. But like I can see how what he wears, I think he says he wore sneakers in a club, ⁓ and it was what he wore is kind of basic. Now
Declan (27:17)
You can change.
Silvan (27:34)
Given the context of probably when this was written, and obviously Rachel Reed's age as well, I sort of relate to when you went out to the club when I was at university and you went out, you had to dress up. You were wearing a shirt. I think you could get away with like smart jeans, but not like scruffy jeans, and you wore like proper what I call school shoes, like leather shoes. There was no rucking up to the club in sneakers and a t-shirt.
Declan (27:57)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (28:03)
I don't know what it was like for you, but I feel like I'm more on that level to when Rachel Reed was probably like growing up to
Declan (28:03)
Okay.
So I was of the skinny jean generation of ⁓ shirt or over shirt with t shirt or very nice expensive t shirt with skinny jeans and you would wear like not trainers but like decent shoes.
Silvan (28:30)
Interesting. Those skinny jeans were not forgiving to anyone.
Declan (28:35)
No, I d I don't I'm I'm glad the skinny jeans have died. ⁓ I think they belong in the past for another two decades or so before they come back again. ⁓ I'm a fan of my loose fitting trousers now. Thank you.
Silvan (28:50)
Hundred
percent. I really hope they don't make a comeback because I remember being in the fitting room in Zara at the time when skinny jeans were a thing and my thighs would not go in. Like I could not pull the jeans up to my waist. And bear in mind, yes, I was doing a little bit of crossfit back then and like you know, like I had chunky thighs, like the thighs were made to work. And I remember thinking, like, should I have more skinnier thighs? I'm like, no, fuck that. I used to work out a hell of a lot. I I have to have like
Declan (28:59)
Mm.
Silvan (29:16)
Thick thighs because I was squatting and deadlifting. Like, that's just how it works. You don't get an ass without having the thighs, right? We know this from Connor.
Declan (29:22)
Mm-hmm.
True, that is true, yeah. And his exercise routine. So now I'm I understand Shane's sort of anxiety about it, because he's above a much cooler crowd. He's he's used to going out to bars with the guys. ⁓ he's not used to these what seems to be like a sort of trendy sort of club or your celebrities and high flyers and whatnot, and I can see why that insecurity would hit him.
Silvan (29:31)
Still.
Declan (29:54)
And also because Iliot is a really ⁓ snazzy dresser, apparently. He now in the show they like find him the ugliest shirts that they can. ⁓ but in the T V show it's more like he's really confident and he confidently wears certain clothes. And there's an element of sort of jealousy or envy with with Shane in that, in which he feels like he needs to dress up a little more.
Silvan (30:17)
See, I I hear what you're saying. Like Ilya's shirt in the Tampa Bar scene is ugly, but it's ugly in the book too. And I and I get that and it's ugly for a reason, because you want the juxtaposition to Shane being all styled. But I actually really like ⁓ the shirt that ⁓ Ilya wears on the TV show. It's I think it's a Versace shirt. It's gaudy, it's out there, it's very loud, but that's Vacha Versace. That's that's the designer as well.
Declan (30:27)
Yeah, it's like a yeah.
Silvan (30:46)
But it to me it's very European and that's what I thought they really nailed. Yes, I wouldn't wear it. No way would I be able to wear that, right? And so for me that worked for the TV show, his his his loud shirt.
Declan (30:46)
Yeah.
It it is very Eastern European. Yeah. It's very Eastern European. No.
Yeah.
Yeah, light shirt works. and it's Ilya. I of course Ilya will wear a stupidly light shirt. It's just like how could he not? Basically.
Silvan (31:16)
Right. Because
that's what he would probably wear in Russia, so why wouldn't he wear something different? Like he'd wear the same thing. But I think you're right, I think when we see this, you know, Shane compar comparing his wardrobe, it's obviously in you know, in direct comparison to to Rose and her friends. Like these are movie stars. They're going to dress well, but they're also going to have the help to dress well. And so there's a natural comparison to and I think of this as like, you know when your friends, your female friends have like
Declan (31:40)
Yeah.
Silvan (31:45)
boyfriends and they just turn up to lots of places and like a football t-shirt or like a a sports t-shirt and I'm like, you're not at a game. What are you wearing?
Declan (31:56)
Yeah. It's funny my sisters would never let their partners leave the house like that. It just wouldn't be happening. it's funny. ⁓ but yeah, and ⁓ I swear to god, see if you walk into a bar and a pair of tracks of bottoms, like come on, guys, guys, a bit more effort, a bit more effort, please. There's a really funny thing. ⁓ like there's this guy ⁓ in Belfast, which is where I live, ⁓ and he has this like TikTok
Channel where he like goes into city centre and he's like quite a snazzy dresser, like quite ⁓ dresses quite modern and ⁓ isn't afraid to sort of you know dress to a style ⁓ rather than just wear what everyone else is wearing. And he goes up to these guys, these Belfast lads, and they're always in the same clothes, like matching track sits and huge big Airmax shoes, and he asks them, What do you think of my outfit? and I'll
Nah man, it's not happening, it's not happening out there stinking. No, I will be caught there, wearing out there and they're sta stood there in their eyed ass tracksit in the middle of Sarah like a metropolitan capital city and we go, my god. As if
Silvan (33:09)
Right.
And I think it just takes that one friend or significant other to be like, hun, this is not what we do. And I had that person in my first year of uni. Like I was that person to dress in tracks of bottoms, not a sports t-shirt, but just like a regular t but I wore trax of bottoms and trainers everywhere. I started wearing that to lectures my first year of uni. This very good friend, and and she probably know who she is ⁓ if she's listening, was like
We need to get you some jeans. Like this is not the way we need to go. And you know, sh we did. We went shopping and it was a lot of fun. Like, but I didn't know how else to dress because I was looking to my peers and they all dress the same way. So I thought, well, I guess I'm dressing the same. It's it's fine. But it's when you take yourself out of that circle, like when I went to university and I'm like, ⁓ people aren't wearing tracksuits all the time. because they're not working out all the time.
Declan (33:57)
Yeah.
Yeah, I find my sisters and my mom, because they were like in my life all the time. I didn't own a pair of Traxobottoms until I was probably about fourteen. Like I did not run around in Traxabottoms. I ran around in jeans, like from like no age, like as a child, like I would have been dressed to like
go to a family event, like no matter what. And I just sort of kept that up. Like I never I never really wore track bottoms until like even now I don't really wear track set bottoms. I'll like sometimes wear them around the house but I wouldn't leave the house in them. Like it's jeans or trousers. Like I like I'll wear like hoodies and stuff like that there. But like I no, I just don't wear track sits. I just never never appealed to me.
Silvan (35:01)
They're so comfortable. I get around I get that, you know, wearing it around the house is like peak comfort. And I always appreciate a guy who has grey sweats on in public. I'm not gonna complain. I'm like you do you and I will appreciate the view.
Declan (35:08)
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're you're doing a great job. Public service, well done.
Silvan (35:22)
You're doing amazing, sweetie. But but you're right, there is something about and this is what I mean about the book really gets into some of the nuances around the wardrobe and his sort of like preoccupation about what he's wearing and why that changes afterwards. And I know we touched up on on the music a little bit, but again, you don't get music as a guide to almost build up the intensity of the scene and you know this
Declan (35:25)
Yeah.
Silvan (35:51)
big moment where you see them staring at each other. You just don't get that in the book because obviously you don't get description of the music. You still get elements of it and I and I I saw that coming through but I think when I think about the scene I think about the T V show more so.
Declan (36:07)
Yeah. It's ⁓ the show has the benefit of being able to create a better atmosphere because of the different types of sort of stimulus that it can add in. It can add in its lighting, its ⁓ sound, ⁓ obviously the picture, what they're seeing, what they're doing, and they can direct them differently. ⁓ so it's easier to create an atmosphere in that sense. ⁓ really, really great writers are really good at writing atmosphere. ⁓ it's not really
Rachel Reed's strongest point. ⁓ hers, I think, is more character focused and relationship focused than sort of building the atmosphere, the environment, the area which they're in. For her, that's not really the main focus. even though it can be incredibly beneficial for setting the mood. ⁓ like I have been recommending a book that I finished last week, ⁓ If there's a way. ⁓ and every so often the offer will be like, and this song was playing in the background on the jukebox as they were talking and yada yada yada.
And they're usually really significant to the mood of what's going on in the book. And so you could even, like, if you want to crack out your earphones while you're reading it and then put the song on as you're reading that chapter. ⁓ so I really, really like that element. ⁓ it's by Jesse Walker, by the way, if anyone's interested. It's the Will and Way trilogy or duology. ⁓ so the first book is called ⁓ Where There's a Will, and the other one is called If There's a Way, and it's about two guys one is called Will and one's called Way.
And they were in love as kids but were torn apart by homophobic father. And then you find each other later in life after life has traumatized them and they're trying to find a little bit of happiness. So yeah, there's a free book recommendation for this podcast episode as well. So
Silvan (37:50)
you go, comfort heated rivalry, we leave with more books. Because that's what we all need, Declan. We need more books to put on our DB T B R pile. Like minus sky high right now.
Declan (37:59)
No
why would you need to spend money on anything else? Like don't be ridiculous.
Silvan (38:04)
And and one thing I have so many notes on this chapter alone, and who knows if we'll move on to another chapter, but I swear we'll breeze through the other chapters, ⁓ hopefully. But one thing that I sort of also notice is you know, Rachel Reed is really good at describing like how they're dancing, and you know, she she writes something about ⁓ Shane smiled back, he had no idea what the song it was. He kept his fingers on Rose's waist, barely touching, as she closed her eyes and slid a hand down.
his chest.
And I think what she does here in her writing is I love the way she describes the dancing because then I can picture it. And one thing I had for you, and I know we're going on so many tangents today, and I know that I'm sort of like shooting us off, and people are gonna be thinking, like, just get through the chapter already.
Declan (38:48)
Mm.
Silvan (38:52)
But there is something about dancing with a woman and the way a woman's body moves when you're dancing. And I don't know whether it's because I grew up as a dancer, so I dance ballet in contemporary, and so like your partner was always a a girl or a woman, depending on what your what age you were, of course. But there's something about dancing with a woman that feels really different to me than dancing with another man. There's I'm gonna let you go because I have
Lots of other thoughts about this.
Declan (39:25)
I think I know what you're talking about. I think there might be more of like a looseness and almost like a sensuality to the way that gears strap dance compared to guys who are just like, you know, pumping pumping the hand up in the up in the air and it's all quite stiff and it's it's like ⁓ it's almost like a bit more aggressive. ⁓ whereas gears are more like go with the flow, the more dance with the beat and feel the sort of feel the ribbon a bit more naturally than than maybe guys do.
⁓ of course, unless you're professionally trained, then it's a different story completely. ⁓ yeah, I sort of do get that. ⁓ I think within the case of the book, it's like a physical representation of how much you know Shane doesn't really want her like that. Like she is doing the sensual thing, she is doing the flirtatious dance, she's touching him, she's she's flirting and
The way that she's dancing with him, ⁓ and he is like barely even wanting to touch her. ⁓ like if that isn't a massive fucking red flag, I don't really know what it is. And I guarantee you, this must have been the moment you went, hmm. Hmm. This this might mean something else to this guy. And there's no hiding it, like the the closet is is made of glass at that point.
Silvan (40:50)
It's see-through, it's transparent. And I think you're right. I think there is a way a woman dances with a man that feels not sexual, it feels sensual sometimes. And I was at a wedding about a month ago now, and it was a gay wedding, ⁓ of my two gay male friends, and I literally had more fun dancing with the women in the wedding than I did with my male friends. With and this is just my experience, of course, I'd love to hear what
Declan (41:01)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (41:19)
you know, the listeners' experiences of this are, but when I danced with a male friend who's a very platonic friend, it felt clunky because I know where to put my hands on the shoulder or the waist. But he didn't and I was like, stop trying to make this weird. Just let me put your hands where I need your hands to go. And I know I'm very much a lead when it comes to dancing in a in a couple as well. And it was just like clunky and there was no rhythm. It didn't feel and I am attracted to men. Let's be honest. I am attracted to men.
Declan (41:32)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (41:49)
But that did not work for me. I know, right? but but when I was dancing with like women that you know, you know how you in a wedding you just meet people and you dance with them and it was so much more fun. Like I knew where my hands went, they knew where their hands went, I could lead, there was and literally I'm dancing with married women in front of their husbands because obviously there's nothing going on. But it was just there was a fluidity in it that I just didn't get when I was dancing with
Declan (42:12)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (42:18)
A male at the wedding.
Declan (42:22)
Yeah. Do you think it might have something to do the fact that ⁓ there is no sexual expectation for you anyway? So that you're you feel more freely to touch them in a way that you know won't be misinstrued or you you're not like like policing your your actions and your behavior to come off as flirtatious or anything like that. You can just sort of have fun with it because they know that you're not
Silvan (42:31)
hundred per cent. Yeah, hundred percent.
Declan (42:51)
You don't bat for their team. Like there's nothing there's no ulterior motive. It's just for the fun of it.
Silvan (42:56)
Yeah, and their husband is sitting right there because the husband wouldn't dance. I was like, Well you're gonna dance with me, so let's go Right? And like we're slut and we're like slut dropping on the on the on the dance floor and all that fun stuff, you know? So there is this this there's there's no strings attached to that, right? It's it's free, it's careless and it's it's for me it's fun. So when Rachel Reid writes about how they dance, I go back to like
Declan (43:01)
Loser, loser, boom. Not for your wives.
Silvan (43:24)
my experiences and obviously how I was trained as a dancer when I was like a child and in my teens and that just feels more natural for me. I would like the day to come. Maybe I just need to like find another dancer to to to dance with, maybe that's what it is. Any dancers out there?
Declan (43:28)
Mm-hmm.
Could
be. Yeah, might be it. Maybe you just need someone that's that's on the same wavelength.
Silvan (43:46)
Honestly, Declan, the amount of times I have had to stop myself from treating this podcast as my own personal hinge profile is outstanding.
Declan (43:55)
By God, I don't need to do that.
Silvan (43:59)
Honestly, don't do it. It's it's it's slim pickings out there, honestly. But yeah, and one thing that was missing from this chapter, not missing, but it just wasn't included because it's in the TV show, is the sex scene between Rose and Shane. So in the TV show we see Rose sort of slipping off a dress, which my god is apart from obviously Connor and Ilya, is for me the most sensual thing in that episode.
Declan (44:04)
Yeah.
Yes.
Silvan (44:28)
Like the way Rose walks up the steps, the stairs in the TV show, slips off her dress and like ho the ass on Sophie and Elise to I apologize for objectifying her, but holy shit. Anyway, ⁓ you don't get this scene in the book. You don't get the scene ⁓ where you know Shane and Rose have sex and we later find out that, you know, Shane doesn't really perform as well. I think it's commented in the next chapter, but that to me was so
Declan (44:36)
Even.
Yeah.
Silvan (44:58)
pivotal because what you do get, and this is I think alluding to what you said or you've been saying this whole time, Rachel Reed likes writing for Ilya. what we do see here in the book is Ilya sort of trying to hook up with this girl and the the boyfriend is watching and he's just not into this cock situation. ⁓ and he ends up going home and masturbating in the shower.
Declan (45:17)
Yeah.
Silvan (45:21)
And this is where I think, does Rachel Reed have more fun writing for Elya?
Declan (45:28)
I I genuinely do think that she does. ⁓ and I don't blame her. She has made a much more interesting character for Ilya. ⁓ than Shane. And it's not that Shane is uninteresting, it's just that Ilya is so interesting. ⁓ that yeah, it just ⁓ creates like an imbalance between ⁓ where she really wants to draw her attention to. ⁓ like really we should have went almost Shane.
⁓ I think I think that's where the story needed to continue. We needed his experience of what was happening with Rose, his thoughts, what was going through his head while it was all happening, ⁓ how he was feeling about the anxiety of not being able to perform. There is like so much there that could have been done. ⁓ and it's just not
not explored in proper detail, which I think is just a missed opportunity, unfortunately.
Silvan (46:34)
So you're saying if Ilya had gone home with Shane, that would have been explored more?
Declan (46:42)
Yeah, I feel like if not even necessarily even having Ilya vo involved. More like if Rachel liked writing Shane more, she would have followed Shane home in that instance because his story was the more important to be told in that moment. Because he's the one that's being torn up by all this. Like Ilya is upset as well. He doesn't want to see Shane go. But at the same time, we need
To know what's going through Shane's head as he is doing this thing that is sort of going against his nature. ⁓ why is that very important moment being told as like an afterthought? Like the chapter after where he's sort of talking about it in hindsight. We could have been in that moment. We could have had a really great internal struggle with Shane. And we don't, we we wander off Vilia instead, and we never get the really
experience that moment with Shane, which I thought would have been really, really important for him. So yeah. A a bit of a missed opportunity, I think, and an important one.
Silvan (47:49)
I see where you're coming from because for me and we talked about in the last episode about who's narrating the chapter here. And Shane is the most interesting point of view in this in terms of development. But the way I read this chapter is I read it from Ilya's point of view. Like I th she does mention both, so it's not that one dominates the other, but I very much see this from Ilya's point of view, whereas I think
Shane's inner monologue is is going to tell us more as a reader.
Declan (48:25)
Yeah, yeah, it will put us more in the moment of where everything is sort of kicking off. ⁓ obviously you have Ilya's inner struggle. ⁓ I think seeing that from Shane's perspective would have been more interesting. I think it would have been a bit more emotionally charged because you don't know what Ilya's thinking in that moment. There's just so much opportunity for like extra angst and
and build up and also exploration of Shane's feelings that could have just been looked into more in that instance. yeah, it's just I suppose just a missed opportunity.
Silvan (49:08)
I think we're on the same page quite literally here. And speaking of pages, I think this is a good time to take a pause and stop because there has been so much in the club scene that we've talked about and so many tangents that I've so enjoyed going off on.
with you. So I hope the everyone who's listening has enjoyed that too. We're gonna stop here at the club scene because the next scene is chapter fifteen, or the next chapter rather, is chapter fifteen. And this is where Shane and Rose have that conversation and Shane comes out to Rose. And I really want to give it the time because it is such a pivotal scene to the whole series ⁓ in the book. So we're gonna stop there for today everyone.
Please join us in the next episode
And we will be more consistent with ⁓ going through the book ⁓ as the episodes go on.
Declan (49:58)
So we're going to stop there then. ⁓ guys, thank you so much for joining us again for part four. We're really enjoying going through the book and in proper detail too. ⁓ so if you are enjoying this, make sure you like. ⁓ don't be afraid to subscribe and to share this as well. ⁓ and give us your opinions too. Like leave comments. You know, we love the engage.
⁓ on top of that as well, ⁓ we actually have a book club, if you're not already aware. ⁓ it's on Fable. It's called The Long Game ⁓ Book Club. ⁓ so if you're interested in joining us in that, we have started a new hockey series. It's the Puck Boy series by Eden Funley and Saxon James. ⁓ and we're only on the first book right now, so you have plenty of time to catch up if you want to join us for that. but all the previous discussions for the other Game Changers books is also on there. So try those out as well. But
That's all for now and we'll see you next time.