Ep 024: Parenting through Sibling Rivalry and Birth Order

Today we're talking all things siblings!  Parenting multiple children, navigating conflict in ways that will serve their relationship long term, and avoiding the pitfalls of birth order roles.  The most important takeaway this week is this:  the relationship you have with your parenting partner will model relationships to your children. The way you relate to and treat your children will  teach them how to relate to their siblings, the way you help them navigate their sibling relationships will determine their sibling closeness/lifelong relationship, and ALL of these first experiences will determine their success in relationships with peers, authority figures, friends and romantic partners for the rest of their lives.  This is the glue, guys.  Get your notebooks out for this one!  #parentingishard

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Creators & Guests

Host

Jennifer Hayes

Host

Rick Hayes

NL

Editor

Natalie Long

What is The Relational Parenting Podcast?

Welcome to the Relational Parenting Podcast! I’m Jennifer Hayes – a Parent Coach and 20 year Childcare Veteran. Each week I sit down with my own father (and cohost), Rick Hayes, and discuss the complicated issues that parents face today, as well as some of the oldest questions in the book. From the latest research and the framework of my Relational Parenting Method, we offer thought-provoking solutions to your deepest parenting struggles.
Relational Parenting is an evidence and experience based parenting method created by me - Jennie. After 20 years in the child care world, in every scenario you could possibly imagine, I realized one thing: EVERYONE was prioritizing the behavior and performance of a child over their emotional well-being. This frustrated me to no end and when I re-visited the latest research, I realized there was a better way. I started applying the principles I'd been learning in my own self-work, parent-child relationships, and partnerships, and I started gobbling up all the new research and books I could get my hands on. When I saw the results of putting these practices into play with the children I was taking care of - the difference in myself AND the kids I worked with was ASTOUNDING.
I am SO PROUD to be presenting Relational Parenting to the world. I can't wait to hear about your own journey. From Parents-to-be to the seasoned parenting veteran - there's something here for everyone!

Jennie (00:05.686)
person that's on co-

Jennie (00:11.311)
All right. Hello. All right, we are back. Welcome back to the Relational Parenting podcast, everybody. Thank you for being here. This is a Jenny and Papa Rick week. And this week we are gonna talk about sibling relationships and birth order. This is something that we've...

mentioned a couple of times but haven't really dove into and it's definitely something that I've noticed in my experiences as a nanny and also in my experiences growing up with siblings and just other people that I've talked to along the way. There tend to be some

very common birth order responsibility type things, roles that are attached to birth orders. And then there's also gender roles at play between siblings and expectations that are different based on which sibling you are. And a lot of these things, there's either bond the siblings or cause conflict in the siblings, between the siblings.

And the primary goal of what I want to talk about today is to explore those things, but also discuss ways that parents can mitigate sibling competition, sibling rivalry, sibling trauma bonding, things like that, where siblings are, are like siblings are going to fight sibling. Like there's going to be conflict, but there doesn't need to be.

competition or resentment because the sibling gets away with things and I don't. Or the sibling gets treated a certain way differently than me because they're younger or because they're older or whatever. There are ways as parents to become more conscious about our own biases and create a little more equity in the home. Especially as we have more than one child.

Papa Rick (02:21.948)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (02:26.054)
Our children are exploring their first same age relationships with one another and teaching them those relationship skills very, very early on. So they, yeah.

Papa Rick (02:40.165)
That's the ideal as a parent, a parent that understands conflict and how to, how to coach kids through it or how to raise kids through it. So it serves them well later as opposed to sit down, shut up, or, you know, sit on your hands like I used to do, or, uh, you know, there's better ways, learn better ways to do it. And I think it starts with being able to regulate, as you've said, many times regulate the parents need to regulate.

Jennie (02:56.866)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (03:09.437)
themselves have to be in a place where they can think straight. You know, things can't be, if things are super hectic, you know, sometimes a parent is just like, I need this to happen or stop now. And trying to keep things on a footing where you can't be mindful, you can't be intentional about all those fun things that happen when you have two or three kids. I remember you talking in school.

Jennie (03:35.562)
Or more.

Papa Rick (03:38.149)
of our more. Yeah. When you were in school. Oh my God, I can't imagine. We had three and I can't, I, you know, it's hard to imagine. Some people grew up in great big families and love the idea, you know, think a family should be great big. And, you know, that would just be a different experience. I remember you in school talking about having friends in the sorority that had grown up without brothers or something.

Jennie (03:39.838)
Imagine if you had five or six kids in the back of the van instead of just three.

Papa Rick (04:06.149)
you know, the mix of sexes and ages and stuff, you know? It's all the combinations.

Jennie (04:09.87)
That is still a thing. I can still point at a, yeah. I can still point at any woman and go, you didn't have brothers growing up, did you? Oh yeah. Yeah, it's only gotten more obvious as I've gotten older and as the people that I'm surrounded by have gotten older. No, and it's become, it actually,

Papa Rick (04:19.433)
Oh really? Oh my golly.

Papa Rick (04:29.821)
We'll have to do an episode on that sometime. Yeah, that's funny.

Jennie (04:40.126)
became more obvious in my marriage too, because I were such good, we're such great mirrors for each other. But Lewis always, Lewis always.

Papa Rick (04:55.092)
Good

Jennie (05:01.806)
I'm trying to think of, I've never had to describe this to anyone before. There are things that I will do, like try to wrestle or there's like little tricks he'll try to play on me or something that he can't, like I'm not gullible enough to fall for, that it's very clear he's had like relationships in the past where girls have fallen for like boy type tricks.

Papa Rick (05:19.957)
Uh-huh.

Papa Rick (05:23.825)
that you've had practice with.

Jennie (05:31.286)
Um, or, or whatever. Um, you know, and you know, when I was growing up, I knew with a lot of guys that I would do things that a lot of girls would either be scared, too scared to do or too timid or had just never done it before. So like, what are you going to do on the four wheeler? And I'd be like, let's go like lead the pack. And.

Papa Rick (05:33.213)
Boy style tricks.

Papa Rick (05:53.669)
I'm going to go.

Jennie (05:58.186)
So that was like, that was a funny adjustment for Lewis because he grew up with brothers. He has one older sister, um, but she was diagnosed at a very early age with a developmental disability. So she was not running with the pack, um, the way that the boys were. And so he was one of four boys who grew up rough and tumble, throwing each other around, beating the shit out of each other, et cetera. And he grew up on the East coast and

Papa Rick (06:11.769)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (06:24.717)
Yeah.

Jennie (06:26.474)
around other rough and tumble boys. And that was his whole, you know, upbringing was rough and tumble boys and girls were a whole different creature, you know? And then I came along and, you know, he'd been in previous relationships and whatnot, but I was a different, I just did things differently and I'm a little more, and I think we were like,

Papa Rick (06:36.477)
Another species.

Papa Rick (06:49.489)
You had brothers.

Jennie (06:55.062)
We weren't that far in, but the first time that he was like, I can tell you grew up with brothers. When he started catching things that I would say or the way that I would just be very, very blunt, very, or very gross about something. Like, I wasn't shy about gross things or saying things in a gross way. Or.

Papa Rick (07:02.255)
Hahaha!

Papa Rick (07:16.701)
HAHAHAHAHAHA

Jennie (07:24.142)
properly or whatever. And, but also, you know, along the way, finding out that I did martial arts when I was growing up and that I wanted, you know, that I would, you know, the first time that I ever challenged him to wrestle and he was like, what? Like I would destroy you. And I'm like, let's go motherfucker. And, yeah.

Papa Rick (07:45.57)
Hahaha!

Papa Rick (07:49.149)
Shout out to your brothers that trained you well.

Jennie (07:54.154)
But just things like that, that.

I don't know that I attribute to growing up with brothers. And that's not to say like girls that don't fight or rough and tumble sometimes or whatever. But when you have, even in my, you know, nannying and childcare experience, girls tend to not always, but girls tend to want to do.

Papa Rick (08:04.057)
Yeah, you wouldn't get that without a brother. Yeah.

Jennie (08:27.566)
trying to figure out how I want to say this because there's also like boy, girl siblings and those girls are different too. Cause they'll have bouts of like, I want to do this organized activity but then they'll want to go wrestle in the yard with their brother. But just girls, I tend to find they want to do, they want to like sit down in color. They want to go outside and play a game or they want to go like do something.

Papa Rick (08:37.702)
Yeah.

Jennie (08:56.194)
that is mentally stimulating. Even, I mean, now I'm talking about like, I can tell the difference in a two-year-old girl versus a two-year-old boy. A girl, a two-year-old girl wants to do something that's like mentally stimulating. Play some kind of game. Oh no, they're just as physically active, but they want to play a game that has like a point, if that makes any sense. Whereas boys just wanna literally like chase you and jump on the ground and roll around.

Papa Rick (08:59.151)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (09:09.346)
not as physically active.

Jennie (09:25.494)
laugh and then jump up and do it again. And not to say girls don't do that too, because 1,000% they do. It's just not typically their first choice. They've got to be influenced by someone pulling them into that game. If you put two girls in the yard, like two sisters, two and four or however old or what, I'm talking about young ages because I want to talk about innate instincts of

Papa Rick (09:41.563)
Okay.

Jennie (09:54.37)
girl children versus boy children. And some of the differences, but if you put a two-year-old and four-year-old sister pair out in the yard, they will play tea party, they will play soccer, like an organized game with rules. It has to be mentally stimulating and there has to be a reason and a story and like all these other things.

Whereas if you put two boys out in the yard, they will just pummel each other and laugh for hours. Like.

Papa Rick (10:22.717)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (10:29.114)
That's right. Punch each other in the arm. Yeah.

Jennie (10:32.01)
Or they'll be like, let's climb this thing and jump off of it. Okay, like, let's go. And when you have boy and girl siblings together, they will get each other to do both of those activities. But one will not come, like typically boys will not come up with an organized game with a point to it as their first choice. And girls will not come up with a rough and tumble. Let's just do something super physical and like, there's no.

rhyme or reason or rules or storyline or anything. And again, I keep saying I'm going to use this word typically because this is not, of course there are exceptions to every rule. But in the 20 years of working with children that I do have, that is most commonly the biggest separation in how children play and relate to each other from a young age is that

Papa Rick (11:27.163)
Yeah.

Jennie (11:29.686)
do something with a point and rules and storyline and all these things. And boys are more rough and tumble physical activity types. And that tracks with kind of the differences. They studied the brains of men and women for years now, and there are very obvious differences and things that are stimulating for women are sometimes are very overwhelming for men and things that are stimulating for men are sometimes like.

women are not interested in 24 seven. So, but when you grow up together in a house where there's both genders, 24 seven, you get, it's like this all the time. You're crossing over and the kids are choosing games and what do you wanna do? What do you wanna do? I mean, we would put on dance shows for you guys when we were very young. And

Papa Rick (11:59.187)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (12:10.141)
24-7 random encounters.

Yeah.

Papa Rick (12:24.673)
I remember those. Yeah. Performances. Yeah.

Jennie (12:27.786)
I wanted to do those, but Josh, Josh loved coming up with shows. He loved coming up with, like, which songs we were going to do.

Papa Rick (12:33.025)
Loved doing that. Yeah. I used to talk to him. I talked to him about going into theater when he went to college. It's like having production, whether it was acting or whatever. It's like, man, you really, the, the productions in high school and stuff. He really loved that stuff. I don't, I don't know why I have to talk to him sometime. I, I tried a couple of times. He didn't have a, I don't remember that he had a real good reason. He shared with me. It wasn't like.

Jennie (12:42.122)
Yeah.

Jennie (12:51.329)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (13:01.417)
big thing. It just wasn't that important to him, but he really did seem to enjoy it a lot.

Jennie (13:06.494)
Yeah, I mean, he was in all the school plays and musicals and all the things. And he always had big roles. Yeah, he was always big roles. So again, I'm not saying that there's a hard line between the genders and preference and activities, but yeah, and especially in families where there are both gendered children, they influence each other. And so anyway, I can...

Papa Rick (13:13.049)
The lead in a couple of them, you know, the music man and stuff. Yeah.

Papa Rick (13:19.241)
You're the laughter.

Jennie (13:35.946)
The whole point of the kind of joke that I was making at the beginning, being able to point to a woman who did not grow up with brothers, is simply that women who grew up in a house full of women.

Papa Rick (13:46.104)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (13:54.198)
It's just different. They just didn't have that influence on their lives. They tend to be a little gentler. They tend, it's not, yeah, there's not like a, no. It's just like you're a very, like there's like a very gentle, they tend to be more gentle. They tend to be more, I don't even know. I don't even have the right words for it. It's a very intuitive thing. And I don't like.

Papa Rick (13:58.607)
Yeah. It's not a pejorative. It's not a it's not a judgment. It's just experience, you know. Yeah.

Jennie (14:23.85)
I don't want to label people, but...

Papa Rick (14:26.193)
Sometimes it's like changing a diaper, I imagine. You can tell people who have never had baby poop on their hands before. You know, the first time somebody changes a diaper, I mean, you get to it, so it's just like, yeah, okay, wipe it off, you know. But the first time, whatever age you are, it's always kind of like you. Ha ha ha. Just experience.

Jennie (14:33.999)
Right?

Jennie (14:41.793)
Yeah.

Jennie (14:46.046)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, you can also kind of tell, the opposite of men who did not grow up with sisters tend to be a little clueless in how to talk to girls. A little clueless.

Papa Rick (15:01.873)
So I bet, yeah.

Little colorless. Just the word I was thinking about it. Yeah, how do you know? Back to the kids. Seems like another species. You know, if you grew up to the age 16 or whatever, with very little contact, they might as well be from another planet. Them girls.

Jennie (15:15.818)
Yeah.

Jennie (15:26.428)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (15:27.533)
Yeah. So we're sneaking up on all kinds of gender issues and stuff. We'll have to get our thoughts together and do a little more gender.

Jennie (15:34.334)
Yeah, I need to reach out to my friend. Yeah, I need to reach out to my friend and get her booked for like November when we have one of our open slots. But so, okay. So sibling relationships, whether you are, you know, so sorry to the single child people, but this could still be really good for you to know.

Papa Rick (15:45.309)
So we're gonna talk it in form.

Jennie (16:02.718)
with your children's friends as they get older, cousins, any interaction with children, this can really help children with other children. So, between siblings, there tends to be, when there's conflict, there tends to be a goal of finding out who's right and who's wrong. Just like, that's just human nature, it's what we do.

And just like in adult relationships, adult conflicts, or anywhere else in our lives, we tend to be naturally black and white thinkers, right and wrong, like solving the puzzle, instead of focusing on, yeah, instead of focusing on empathy, emotions, experience, and coming to a...

Papa Rick (16:46.193)
Categorizing, yeah.

Jennie (17:03.406)
compromise or an agreement, getting on the same page. And one of the number one rules is you are, the human beings involved are a team and the goal is to identify the problem and problem solve. And so if you can apply that to your children, anytime there's a conflict with your children, neither of the children is wrong. Even if it's something as obvious as,

older child hit younger child. We don't make the child wrong. We make the action wrong or the problem because there was a problem. There was a, there was a catalyst to that behavior, which could have been she grabbed, you know, younger sibling grabbed the toy. Right. They, they deserved it. No.

Papa Rick (17:41.518)
Oh, right. That's right. That's right.

Papa Rick (17:57.073)
They needed a smack.

Jennie (18:01.778)
Um, right. Um, you know, younger sibling took the toy from the older sibling. So older siblings smacked. They were both in the wrong. So there's like, you know, there's no point in. Yeah. And sometimes it's really hard to if it's the older sibling who instigated and took the toy from the younger sibling, because that as

Papa Rick (18:02.951)
I'm saying things that you're going to have to edit out.

Papa Rick (18:13.573)
Yeah, yeah. Stimulus response, something happened, yeah.

Jennie (18:30.99)
grown adults and we look at that as even more like injustice. Like when the older sibling does something to the younger sibling, it almost feels worse. And we want to stop it, fix it, make it like shame. Like, like do absolutely not how dare you, you know, you are bigger and stronger and

Papa Rick (18:44.69)
That's right.

Papa Rick (18:53.477)
You little monster. Yeah.

Jennie (18:55.154)
smarter and how dare you take advantage of your younger sibling and that's all like you're literally acting out The horrible injustice that they just committed Instead of being the calm Yeah, but and it's such a natural Yeah, yeah, it is and it's valid It's a valid like good if you have that instinct of injustice like internalize that towards yourself

Papa Rick (19:05.661)
That is such a big thing. Injustice is such a trigger for everybody.

Jennie (19:21.942)
Like take a minute and be like, okay, I just watched my child commit an injustice towards a younger, smaller, less powerful being than themselves. And now my job is to not then commit that same injustice against them, but to come in as a calm, loving presence who loves them just as much as I love this one over here. And I'm going to help them through it instead of committing the exact same injustice.

Papa Rick (19:35.91)
That's right.

Papa Rick (19:50.67)
You know, and that's a deep breath moment for a parent. At least I know as a dad, you know, you see that and you just want to go, come here a minute. Come here. And yeah. Okay, what do we want to do here?

Jennie (19:50.882)
to that child.

or 10 deep breaths, you know? Like, maybe.

Jennie (20:01.868)
Yeah, yeah, oh, trust me. Yeah.

Papa Rick (20:12.288)
Hahaha.

Jennie (20:14.143)
So I would invite parents to...

Jennie (20:20.326)
look at any situation between siblings with a lens of how can I help them, how can I coach them to problem solve their conflict instead of walking in with the goal of assigning blame, right and wrong, justice or injustice and assigning punishment.

to a conflict, whether you are right there directly witnessing it or you are walking in on it after something has occurred or while something is occurring. I have a couple of scenarios to present. We've done a lot of presenting on very young children. So one-year-olds and three-year-olds or two-year-olds and five-year-olds, you know, that one to

Papa Rick (21:13.453)
Yeah, yeah, age appropriate.

Jennie (21:16.438)
bigger kids smacks younger kid or whatever. We've done that in a lot of episodes. So I want to touch on something a little bit bigger. I wanna talk about like the six to 10 or six to 12 year range. And then I wanna talk about the teenager range because these can be a little harder to walk into and stay calm because they've got the words, they can, they're not just losing their minds emotionally and you need to like,

Papa Rick (21:37.405)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (21:46.786)
just like wuss off through the emotions and then you have all the answers. This older age range gets a little trickier because you've got to wuss off through the emotions and then you've got to navigate some really deep thinkers who have the words to put to why they feel bad and why they think it's justified that they did what they did and all of those things and it adds another layer to it. And so,

Papa Rick (22:02.727)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (22:08.709)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (22:16.729)
Yeah, if you phrase them right, they're a little more sophisticated. They can keep up with you and you need to have the rules straight and wise. And yeah, better than because, because I told you so, you know, where's then when they get a little older.

Jennie (22:19.714)
Yeah.

Jennie (22:24.672)
Yeah.

Jennie (22:32.394)
Yeah. And so, and it's really important that you don't walk in and just squash it and make everybody go sit in their corners until they calm down too. Like that might be needed like every great, great once in a while, if somebody really cannot calm down in the moment and have a discussion together. But nine times out of 10, if you can walk into that room and

be the calm presence and invite them to calm down. And we're gonna work through this together. No one's getting in trouble. We're just gonna talk this out. If you can walk in and create the peace or the calm that is needed in order to problem solve with your children, nine times out of 10, they're gonna do that with you, especially if you've been doing it since they were little. But if you haven't and you're starting something new, you know,

it might take a little, a few tries. So, so yeah, so maybe you have a seven and a 10 year old. We're gonna go with that. So you've got two very verbal children who know how they feel. They have their own belongings, their own clothes, maybe their own bedrooms at this point. And you walk in on them, you know, screaming at each other, fighting over a shirt, you know, yanking on something. No, it's mine, no, it's mine or whatever.

fighting over something, you walk in, your first job is to bring the energy you want into the room, do not join their chaos. So your first job is to walk in and be the calm that you're trying to get them to be. And yes, and that doesn't mean that you walk in and you're talking like this and we're all just gonna, huh.

Papa Rick (24:17.073)
route.

Jennie (24:25.346)
Sometimes calm, like powerful calm, is you walk in and you're like, hey, you guys, you know, I don't know what's happening here, but we all need to take a deep breath and step away from one another before it goes too far. And then we'll work this out together. But it can be a very firm, like knock it off without.

Papa Rick (24:44.67)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (24:55.094)
being the knock it off, the like dismissive, like brushed off words. And that reassurance inside of that firmness, that calmness, the reassurance that we are going to work through this together, it assures your children who are already in a heightened state that you're not walking in to just start doling out punishments and solutions. And I don't care what it is, and I don't care what she said or you did.

Papa Rick (24:58.612)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (25:23.894)
Like everybody just go to your corners and shut up. And no one's gonna get heard or validated about, you know, what happened or how they're feeling. So walking in, being that calm, being that firm assured leader, and then offering a quick reassurance of like, we're gonna work through this.

Because that, yeah.

Papa Rick (25:48.513)
I get that. I can remember walking in, I remember doing the knock it off thing. I can remember saying, I don't know what's going on, but I'm tired of listening to it. Right. And then I don't know how effectively I followed up with the, you know, just, just knock it off or the, I mean, I imagine.

Ideally what you want to do is walk in and coach them through resolving the conflict in some way or better or taking a break from it anyway and come back if it's you know, Maybe it's not something that can be resolved. I mean a shirt. Yeah. Okay, but maybe there's some fight going on That's uh, that's got that's more deeply rooted. But yeah Using it as a as a always using as a teaching

moment once you know assuming there's no danger or like that going on

Jennie (26:46.282)
Yeah. A teaching moment.

But I even want to change that language to a guiding moment because teaching implies that you are handing down a solution. Teaching is like is you are solving the problem instead of helping them solve the problem. And at age seven and 10.

Papa Rick (26:56.601)
Mm-hmm. Okay.

Papa Rick (27:03.569)
Teaching, coaching, yeah.

Papa Rick (27:14.133)
I have all the answers and yeah.

Jennie (27:21.818)
We're in this window of development for most typical children. Seven is right on that cusp. But 10, we're well into the window of logic and reasoning and rational thought and abstract concepts. And so we are able to bring the energy down and have a discussion and say, you know,

so and so, like, everyone's going to get heard, you know, and last time, last time there was a conflict, you know, seven year old got to talk first. So this time it's 10 year olds turn 10 year old for you in your experience, what happened? Why are you upset? 10 year old get, you know, let her tell her story, let her let them be him or her, let them be animated, let them be upset, let them tell their story. And then you say, Wow, I hear you, that sounds really frustrating.

Something that validates. You don't have to validate her reasoning. You don't have to validate any, like any occurrence or that she should have reacted that way. You don't need to validate the behavior, the validating that her experience was upsetting. That sounds like you were really upset. Yeah. Sounds like that sounds really upsetting. That sounds really frustrating. You sound so frustrated about that.

Papa Rick (28:22.193)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (28:32.133)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (28:38.245)
Yeah, validate the emotion. Yeah.

Papa Rick (28:49.369)
You sound so frustrated, yeah.

Jennie (28:52.01)
And then 10 year old is validated. Okay, seven year old, in your experience, what happened? Why are you upset? Seven year old expresses themselves. We offer validation. Oh yeah, that sounds really frustrating too. Or, oh man, that sounds, you know, you sound really sad. You sound hurt. Hurt is a very underused word that can solve a lot of problems.

Um, when we get angry, when we get scared, when we get.

sometimes even underlying frustration. But when we get sad, angry, scared, almost always what's under one of those three emotions is hurt. I'm hurt. My feelings are hurt. I feel...

Papa Rick (29:43.248)
It covers over all the degrees. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good word.

Jennie (29:46.654)
Yeah, I feel betrayed. I feel, so hurt is, it's just such a useful word. And it's the core of a lot of our emotions and conflicts with other people. And so, you can even offer, oh, that sounds like that really hurt you. You sound really hurt right now. Offering that to each of your children. And so,

Papa Rick (30:08.909)
Yeah. Yeah, I like that.

Jennie (30:16.71)
So we're coming in, we're changing the energy in the room, and we are allowing each child to have a voice and to be heard and seen and acknowledged for their side of the story. Because this is teaching kids that one, that they deserve to be treated like that in their future relationships, and two, that you are not on anyone's side. You were there for both of them and you're there to help them.

work through a conflict, not to pass judgment, pass down punishment, or decide who's right and wrong. And from there,

Papa Rick (30:54.053)
They have to sit there while the other one describes their point of view too. So it's a good, and from that point of view to teach you to sit there and listen to someone, no matter how wrong you think they are, sit there and describe it knowing you're going to get your turn. So yeah, that would be a real good exercise for a lot of adults. Anybody.

Jennie (30:57.896)
Yes.

Jennie (31:06.215)
Yes.

Jennie (31:13.31)
Absolutely. Practice, they get to practice listening to that other side of the story and they get to do it when they're young so that when they're older and have romantic relationships and friendships, they aren't fucking assholes. For lack of a better word. Yes.

Papa Rick (31:31.349)
Or even work relationships. I can see that extending to all kinds of relationships where they recognize that when you're not being heard, hey, wait a minute, you're talking a lot about your stuff, you're not listening to my stuff. That's red. That's a red flag, you know, can that be resolved or not? You know? Yeah.

Jennie (31:36.715)
Yeah.

Jennie (31:49.162)
Yeah. So, um, so, so many life lessons, so many life skills being learned from one simple little sibling conflict. But the number one, one that I want to hit on the head with this episode is that your children are not learning to resent one another because

Papa Rick (32:02.854)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (32:19.17)
passing judgment and deciding who's right and wrong. And then your kids walk away. They don't walk away mad at you. You're the rulemaker. You're the one in charge already. You're already like the manager at the office. Like they're not supposed to like you, but they're supposed to trust you. And they're supposed, and they.

Papa Rick (32:37.907)
Well, establish that authority and fairness, you know, that you are a source of that.

Jennie (32:41.867)
Yes.

But you are also like, for them to trust and respect, like respect you, a lot of parents talk about, my kids don't respect me, my kids talk back to me. If you want your kids to respect you, like, but you're the one passing judgment and constant punishment and dismissive of them and their feelings and their conflicts, they're not gonna respect you and they're not gonna respect each other. And they're just gonna continue to like boil at each other. And those conflicts are just gonna keep happening. It is amazing.

Papa Rick (33:12.869)
Yeah, day after.

Jennie (33:13.558)
when you teach children conflict resolution skills, I've seen it happen with kids that I still take care of every once in a while, a three and a five-year-old, they talk through conflicts. A three and five-year-old discuss their conflicts and hug it out and move on when they have a disagreement during a game or whatever. Like...

Papa Rick (33:28.717)
Yeah, they model it. Yeah.

Papa Rick (33:36.582)
nice.

How old are they now? Three and five now? Or when you were, yeah. So that's the best time to get at them. You know, if you wait, if you wait to, it's harder when you wait to do this till they're more fully formed. You know, if you don't start this till they're 22, you know, it's gonna be real slow to change. You know, it's, if you can get them young, they get those habits young, then it makes the whole thing easier. You know, kids, little kids are.

Jennie (33:41.294)
They're three and five. Yeah, they're three and five now. He just turned five.

Jennie (34:08.589)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (34:10.085)
pick things up quick.

Jennie (34:11.565)
they do. So whether you've been doing this since your kids were young or you're just hearing this for the first time now and starting now, you know, the point is causing sibling rivalry and resentment through unconscious parenting is a huge issue. And I see it, I literally don't know that I've, I think I have one family that I can honestly say.

I've seen handle sibling conflict really well. And in a way, I know that's why we're out here is that it's not common knowledge. And causing, you know, there are things that, like me and my brothers are, we're fairly close and.

Papa Rick (34:47.993)
Nobody's been taught really to do it. It's...

Papa Rick (34:54.629)
Yeah.

Jennie (35:09.558)
There are still things from our childhood that we will sling at each other if we get mad enough at one another. If one of us triggers something, there are two or three phrases that have lived since we were like seven years old that we know we can throw at each other and just destroy the other person and just send them into a like lost fit of rage. And

Papa Rick (35:33.053)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (35:37.361)
Yeah.

Jennie (35:40.458)
we're all in our thirties, like, and we can still do like they live forever. Anyone who thinks like, Oh, that's just dumb, young rival, dumb sibling shit that they'll grow out of. They don't, they do not grow out of it. So if you want your children to long after you're gone, to have these like beautiful friendship, loving and supportive and your families get together and the cousins know each other and all of that, like. It.

Papa Rick (35:53.077)
No.

Jennie (36:06.046)
you got to start when they're little. Like their relationship starts when they're little. So anyway, like, you know, a lot of stuff also can get worked through when your siblings become adults, but there are a lot of families where it doesn't. The sibling rivalry is insane. You always got away with everything. You always did this. Well, no offense, but your siblings are a great example of sibling rivalry never being resolved.

Papa Rick (36:08.757)
Yep. And they're well-fed.

Papa Rick (36:20.641)
It doesn't. I heard a story. Yeah.

Papa Rick (36:32.557)
I go to, yeah, yeah. Well, and I just, I kind of stay apart from it now. And as a result, it's like, yeah, I engaged and tried to fix and tried various approaches and I ran out of ideas. So I just kind of let it go. Probably, probably. Yeah, in fairness.

Jennie (36:51.606)
And I'm sure maybe they feel the same way. I don't know. If they're like, well, we tried, you know, everybody tried and maybe there's just not a, you all just, I mean, you all, like when it gets ingrained and it's, you guys are all, you're in your 60s, your sister's in her 70s, like, when it goes that far for that long and it's that deeply rooted from like five, six, seven years old, that is hard.

Papa Rick (37:13.117)
John's pushing 70 if he's not there. Oops.

Jennie (37:21.11)
That is hard. That is hurt that runs deep. That is hard to work through.

Papa Rick (37:21.921)
Yeah, hard to root out.

Papa Rick (37:27.625)
longer it's like it sits there and if especially if you if you don't actually deal with it you know getting to the whole therapy thing or something you know take when you're hurt or you know there's a bad habit and you don't and you never deal with it you just press it down press it down ignore it it'll go away then that's no you don't really go away you really got to drag it out and feel it

Jennie (37:47.042)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (37:56.173)
and deal with it. I heard a story the other, just the other day, I go to a couple of men's groups and talk with guys and heard a story about somebody that had been required by a parent to apologize to an older sibling in order to keep the peace, you know, no matter what. The younger, the younger was to apologize and eventually just rebelled. It didn't take that long. You know, I'm not sure what age, but I'm, I'm imagining.

Jennie (38:13.751)
Yeah.

Jennie (38:22.498)
Hmm.

Papa Rick (38:24.961)
at adolescence, you know, and finally go into the parent and say, I ain't doing that anymore. That's just not, you know, it didn't fix anything. And, uh, you know, just, just a parent trying to make the, the conflict go away, but it's not helpful and it's, and it lasts forever. You know, in this particular relationship, it's lasted up to this time, you know? So yeah, better, better and worse ways.

Jennie (38:27.8)
Yeah.

Jennie (38:31.348)
Yeah.

Jennie (38:46.934)
Yeah.

Jennie (38:55.446)
Well, and so jumping back to our example, because I don't want to leave people hanging on the resolution of a conflict. You know, so we have a 10 year old and a seven year old and you've walked into the room, everyone is calm. You offered reassurance we're going to talk through this and everyone is going to be heard. 10 year old told their side of the story. Seven year old told their side of the story. Both feelings were validated.

Papa Rick (39:03.985)
Yes.

Jennie (39:25.13)
So now this is where the actual resolution comes in. So now we go to 10, we go to actually.

Papa Rick (39:25.873)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (39:36.618)
We could have even, you could have even, you can do this at the end or you can do this in between is like if 10 year old goes first, tells their side of the story, we can then say, ask seven year old, seven year old, like, did you hear, you know, can you repeat back what you heard 10 year old saying about their feelings? And then maybe, yeah, yeah. Can you, but it's also, it's an exercise in making sure that

Papa Rick (39:54.161)
Mm hmm. Mirroring is that?

Paraphrasing, something like that, yeah.

Jennie (40:04.242)
they're, they actually were listening and not just having their own thoughts and comebacks to what that person was saying, but also that they fully understand what part of their behavior or words or actions hurt 10 year olds so that in the future they know, oh, this is hurtful to this person. So maybe I'll choose not to do it next time. Whereas before they might've just thought they might've not even known that, oh, that might be hurtful. Like

Papa Rick (40:10.32)
Yeah.

Jennie (40:32.262)
Most kids are not purposefully hurting someone. They're just doing shit because they had an idea and want to do it. Unless there's major sibling rivalry and competition in the house, in which case they are in fact executing these things forethought. Yes. So anyway, seven year old reflects back to 10 year old the thing that they did that hurt them.

Papa Rick (40:39.249)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (40:46.709)
until they learn it's a button, a hot button. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, kids don't necessarily think things through.

Jennie (40:58.23)
And we're not saying, what did you, so tell me what you did to hurt this person. We're saying, did you hear what 10 year old said? Can you repeat that back to her? Can you simply repeat? Not, we're not saying you did this wrong, so you need to say it back. We're saying, can you repeat what 10 year old just told you? Do you understand what 10 year old, why 10 year old is upset? Repeat that back, great.

Papa Rick (41:07.614)
Yeah, what did she say?

Papa Rick (41:16.381)
Do you understand what upset seven-year-old?

Jennie (41:22.582)
All right, now it's seven year olds turn seven year old, tell your side of the story. Why? Oh yeah, that sounds frustrating. You sound hurt too. And then we say, 10 year old, what did seven year old just tell you about how they were feeling? 10 year old reflects back and maybe you, there's some minor corrections or whatever that need to happen there and their reflections to each other and you let that happen. And then we say, okay, so now we know.

that this thing hurts 10 year olds feelings. And then when 10 year old did this, it hurts seven year olds feelings. And then there's, so what do we think the solution is? How could we have, you know, what can the solution be now? Who gets to wear the shirt or whose shirt is this or whatever? And then what is the future solution for this to not happen again? Oh, well in the future.

Papa Rick (42:11.801)
Yeah, how do we avoid this situation?

Jennie (42:14.502)
I could ask 10 year old if I could see if my shirt is in her closet instead of just running into her room without permission because I think my shirts in here, you know, whatever the solution is for the future. So we're coming up with a solution in the moment. What do you guys think is fair? What do you guys, you know, do you guys feel like you want to apologize to each other for hurting one another? And of course encouraging that, but not demanding it because an apology needs to come.

Papa Rick (42:21.949)
There you go.

Jennie (42:43.01)
from actually feeling sorry or guilty or whatever. And then discussing a future option. Okay, next time I can ask permission or knock on the door. And then, you know, maybe seven year old solution is next time I can ask permission to come in and see if my shirt is in her closet. And okay, 10 year old, what's your solution? Well, I could not.

Papa Rick (42:47.449)
and letting them develop it.

Jennie (43:08.082)
either like I could not put her shirt in my closet because I know it's her shirt or I can let her in my room to see if her shirts in there instead of hiding it from her, you know, whatever. Whatever the solution is, come up with a solution. Let them come up with solutions.

Papa Rick (43:12.875)
I'm going to go to bed.

Papa Rick (43:24.045)
And you'll have to, and it's best if they come up with it because we learn more when we have to synthesize it than when it's just like, okay, here's another rule to write on the wall, you know, but they're developing boundaries and learning about at least one other person in the world. And they will, of course, there will be the next step where, well, I not, but she wasn't there so I went ahead and went on it. I mean, there'll be...

Jennie (43:51.606)
Right. Oh yeah. All kinds of roadblocks. Yeah.

Papa Rick (43:53.681)
There'll be the next fight will be about the next little baby step, you know? Okay. I did that, but then that, okay. Well, we'll do it again. And eventually the whole route will be covered and, uh, a general rule will emerge. But yeah, it's frustrating. It could be frustrating. And you, and you have to do these things when there's time, right? I mean, if we're in the middle of, uh, 10 year old pushing seven year old out in front of a car.

Jennie (43:57.887)
Yup.

Jennie (44:08.662)
and then they'll fight about something else.

Jennie (44:22.09)
Right. The, right, right.

Papa Rick (44:23.033)
No, this has to happen really quick, you know, but when there's time, you know, there's always those things when there isn't time or when you haven't got the capacity, you know, you're too tired. But if, uh, when there's time, if you do this, it will pay off big time.

Jennie (44:28.149)
Yeah.

Jennie (44:38.774)
And I, and yeah, and that's a great point. And I, I want to say that it takes less time than you think it will. It can actually be a lot faster. Once you've done it a couple of times and your kids know, they know the deal, they know, okay, I'm going to tell my side, she's going to tell her side, we're going to come up with a solution and they're comfortable with the process. It can actually.

Papa Rick (45:01.593)
Here's what's going to happen if we do this. Yeah.

Jennie (45:06.87)
happen really quickly. I'm talking like two minutes. Like, like a lot of times the complaint about these parenting tactics can be, it's so time consuming, it takes so much of my energy, I'm doing other things, blah, blah. And I'm like, if you just do it, it takes like, it literally takes two minutes, it can sometimes take a lot less time than screaming until they listen to you and go to their rooms. You know?

Papa Rick (45:09.445)
Yeah. And less

Papa Rick (45:35.981)
And it accumulates, you know, if you do it now, if you get started, especially if you can start when they're little, but whenever you start, you'll have to do it less in the future. So it saves time not having to listen to the conflicts or the rounded circle, you know, it pays interest. Yeah, pays dividends.

Jennie (45:47.786)
Yeah. And they'll start doing it themselves without you even in the room. There'll be conflicts that you don't even know about because you've given them the tools to do it themselves.

Papa Rick (46:01.445)
You'll find out when they're in their 30s and you're sitting around talking about it. You remember that time.

Jennie (46:05.868)
Right? You guys and then you'll be like, where was I when you guys were doing that?

Papa Rick (46:11.313)
Yeah. Oh, you were gone, you know.

Jennie (46:15.626)
God. I.

Jennie (46:20.938)
Yeah, and I mean sibling rivalry is real. It is not, it can go to places that are really dangerous. When you get older, when you get older and you have access to things, weapons, things that can be turned into weapons, like kids, unchecked emotions, unregulated emotions, running rampant in teenagers is a dangerous fucking thing. I mean,

Papa Rick (46:30.358)
Oh yeah.

Papa Rick (46:39.889)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (46:49.03)
Yeah.

Jennie (46:49.954)
There were knife chases around the house when parents were gone because we got so angry at each other. Like there were real life-threatening things that were simply lucky didn't happen.

Papa Rick (46:58.107)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (47:06.929)
There, there, but for the grace of God go I. Yep. There's a lot of it in the world.

Jennie (47:12.714)
Yeah, so this is not like some like.

you know, maybe I'll try this whatever like unimportant conflict resolution skill that people should just tuck in their pocket for a rainy day. This is like everything we talk about on here is

a life-saving or life-valuing concept of like quality of life, the quality of your children's lives.

Papa Rick (47:41.413)
Potentially, yeah.

Jennie (47:50.222)
having a life, period, because what ends lives? Conflict.

Anyway, now that we've brought the energy down.

Papa Rick (48:00.445)
Yeah, often.

Jennie (48:07.31)
I forgot the other thing that I was gonna say. There was something you said that triggered something.

Papa Rick (48:10.341)
We were talking about resolution, and you're kind of going through a progression. So everybody gets acknowledged, mirrors, you know, make sure they understand. I know I'm just talking through the lead up to it. Then we kind of had the resolution. What was the next step?

Jennie (48:16.962)
Finished that.

Jennie (48:21.708)
Yeah.

Jennie (48:30.73)
I mean, once there's a resolution, there's a resolution. Yeah, and if there's repair is the final, that's where, repair is where apology comes in or if there needs to be an action taken to repair. So we come up with a resolution and then it's like, can we, and sometimes repair needs to happen before resolution, but they're both in there. And

Papa Rick (48:31.483)
Let them figure out their own.

Jennie (49:00.69)
Repair can be simple as, I'm sorry that I came into your room without permission and I will try my best. I won't do that anymore. I will do my best not to do that anymore. Repair can be a step further where, you know, let's see. Maybe during the pulling of the shirt.

Papa Rick (49:10.437)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (49:26.61)
you know, or whatever, someone gets smacked in the head or scratched. Maybe there's like an actual scratch or an injury that occurs, a minor injury. And it wasn't intentional, but it still happened. And so maybe the repair of the other party is, I'm sorry that I hurt you. I didn't mean to do that. It just happened in the midst of it, but I'd like to get you an ice pack

Papa Rick (49:42.657)
Band-Aid Involved.

Jennie (49:56.27)
to put your band-aid on you. And there's an action of repair toward that, that helps to almost negate the action of hurt. And it's an energetic exchange that happens in the relationship where I'm proving to you through an action that I care about you and that I am sorry that I hurt you.

Papa Rick (50:13.188)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (50:25.482)
and it's not just words, but can I show you that I'm sorry through an action right now? And so offering repair, yeah, repair after conflict is huge. The couples that I know, I relate this to adult relationships a lot because it's the exact same. When couples argue and

Papa Rick (50:32.717)
Yeah, I like that idea a lot.

Papa Rick (50:50.818)
It is the same.

Jennie (50:54.566)
you come up with, you know, whatever the fight is about, everybody's hurt, everybody has their point of view and their experience and their feelings. And maybe you do all of the steps, maybe you empathize and you validate each other's feelings and experience and you even come up with a resolution. If you don't also do the repair piece,

Jennie (51:22.69)
there's...

Jennie (51:28.034)
There's almost, it's just there's almost like.

the wound is still just gonna be open until...

Papa Rick (51:38.525)
There's a lack of closure somehow.

Jennie (51:39.762)
you just give it time to heal over versus someone coming in and actually changing the energy and dressing the wound and kissing it and making up for what they did. And I'm not saying that every single conflict requires a repair, but big ones do. And...

Jennie (52:01.954)
And it changes how you feel about one another. It changes the energy in the room. It lets you move forward in a more connected place. If repair doesn't happen, you kind of just move forward at a distance. And it makes it that much more likely that conflict is gonna happen again. It's gonna reoccur. So.

Papa Rick (52:24.189)
Yeah, recidivism. It makes me think while you guys, while you and your brothers were in high school, I got to be on the school board for a while and got to work on a athletic policy, a new athletic policy, and part of that I got to talk to a friend at some length, a probation officer, juvenile probation officer at the time, friend about.

Jennie (52:41.666)
Hmm.

Papa Rick (52:53.565)
Punishment and what's effective and what's not. And she introduced me to the idea of restitution. Punishment is about discipline. It's about teaching discipline. And there's a place for just, okay, you did this, now you need 20 lashes. Punishment. But what you're saying about making things better.

Jennie (53:03.758)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (53:23.321)
you know, the restitution, the, okay, I'll do some kind of penance, you know, running laps for the coach, whatever, you know, doing some kind of action that, as a penance or a restitution for the wrong, paying, you know, I stole something, I need to pay back the money, I need, you know, the restitution is a big, is a big for-

Jennie (53:46.816)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (53:51.485)
for things that require it. Some things require it, some things don't. Like you say, restitution is the word that was coming to mind while you were describing that. You know?

Jennie (54:01.42)
Yeah.

Yeah. If you're, you know, same fight seven and 10 year old fighting over the shirt or take, dig it that the, you know, seven year old rips the shirt in half because it's 10 year old shirt or whatever. All right. Seven year old has us extra chores to earn the money to buy the new, buy a new shirt, you know, restitution repair. Um, my athletic policies, you know, it always.

Papa Rick (54:19.393)
Yeah. Damage.

Jennie (54:36.25)
you know, there was like a, there was a grade average that you had to maintain in order to be in sports. And then there was also a no drugs and alcohol policy. And, but the punishment was that you didn't get to play, um, which for some players was like, I don't, I don't play that much anyway, so I'm going to do whatever the fuck I want. Um, you know, for starters, yeah, well,

Papa Rick (54:49.659)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (54:56.597)
exactly the reason for the change.

Jennie (55:00.898)
So for restitution, my thing is that the restitution isn't for the coach. The restitution is for your team. You screwed up your team's. Well, so running laps doesn't serve the team.

Papa Rick (55:08.637)
for the team.

Depends, unless you disrespect the coach. Yeah.

Jennie (55:16.47)
But I'm saying specifically the drugs and alcohol.

Papa Rick (55:21.462)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (55:22.258)
That's the only thing I ever heard of kids getting punished for.

Papa Rick (55:27.685)
That was a favorite of the community. It was pretty verifiable.

Jennie (55:29.282)
Yeah. But anyway, like the punishment of not playing only hurts the team further. Restoring trust or repairing or restitution would be like, okay, I'm going to do everybody's dirty laundry after games for the next three weeks. Or like, I'm going to do some kind of service to my teammates to make up for my actions that hurt the team.

Papa Rick (55:46.753)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (55:58.07)
Because if you take your starter, one of your five starters, everything was about basketball in our hometown. If you take one of your five starters and they can't start for six weeks, you're just screwing the team, and the school, and the reputation, and yeah. And that kid, yeah, it's a punishment that he has to carry that guilt around, but it doesn't serve anyone. It doesn't serve the kid, and it doesn't serve.

Papa Rick (55:58.139)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (56:05.061)
Yep. Yeah.

Papa Rick (56:12.229)
hard on the season you're punishing everybody.

Jennie (56:26.07)
the team and so giving the kid something to do that is repair versus punishment is actually much more effective. Yeah, much more effective tool.

Papa Rick (56:27.718)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (56:33.381)
Yeah. And that was the idea. It wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't just laps. It was, it was, uh, enabling the coach to, to determine, um, and preferably with the team involved, what it was going to take for restitution. If the kid broke a rule, then, uh, well, and I'm not even sure I, you know, I'd have to go back and dig it out now, but I don't much, I'm not even sure drugs and alcohol was.

as an inf... was an infraction at that point. I forget, I forget the exact structure of the thing, but the idea was that the community came up with a restitution, you know, what's a... what's a just restitution for what happened and to do that, to do... to make them feel part of the team and to make them feel like they had done their time, you know, it's like, okay, now I'm part of the team. I'm not just ostracized now. I forget what the exact...

Jennie (57:12.899)
Hmm.

Jennie (57:16.332)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (57:31.345)
There were a couple of incidents that prompted it, and they decided it needed to be modified, and I decided to, I took on the job of modifying it.

Jennie (57:40.338)
Yeah. I just wanna check my notes real quick. So we had.

Papa Rick (57:49.149)
conflict resolution, attachment figures, sibling boundaries, bonding.

Jennie (57:50.45)
Okay. Yeah. So now, so I want to touch on birth order and attachment between siblings, because the other issue with siblings, it's not just conflict resolution, but also just in day-to-day life and the expectations that we kind of unconsciously create around like first children versus last children, youngest children, oldest children versus youngest children.

Papa Rick (58:17.937)
there.

Jennie (58:19.894)
or middle children or different gendered children. And so there's often, you know, boys and girls are often raised differently. And for some...

uh, situations that apply to specific genders, that's appropriate. But overall, like.

Jennie (58:49.77)
Everyone should be learning a lot of the same skills and have the same expectations. Yes, yes, yes. But I...

Papa Rick (58:55.069)
There's more overlap than difference between people a lot of times. Yeah.

Jennie (59:05.878)
Let's see, how do I want to say this? Let's go back to birth order. So, birth order, often first children are parentified. They are, no matter what age they are, no matter how much older they are than their younger sibling, they are parentified and they have higher expectations. You should know better or you do know better, or you're the oldest, you're the smartest. How dare you do that to your younger sibling?

Papa Rick (59:27.953)
Hmm... Judgments.

Jennie (59:34.166)
You know, the power over injustice that we started the episode talking about all of those things, but they get parentified and turned into a third caregiver. I need your help with, you know, the younger sibling or the younger siblings, or you're the oldest, so I need you to clean or do more chores or whatever. And like, and there's, there's part of that. That's good. Like assigning chores based on age is good. Um,

Papa Rick (59:42.065)
rentified.

Papa Rick (01:00:01.373)
roles.

Jennie (01:00:04.566)
But I remember, I'm not gonna tell that story.

Papa Rick (01:00:11.362)
So I understand that sounds kind of like you're assigning a part of an identity to a kid. You're the oldest, you're the smartest, you're this, you're that.

Jennie (01:00:23.81)
It's that you're turning them into a third parent. So they're expected to care for the other children, just like a parent. Keep, make sure, hey, you're gonna walk them to school, keep them safe. That's not your child's job.

Papa Rick (01:00:27.72)
Oh, I see what you mean.

Papa Rick (01:00:31.729)
You're a caretaker. Gotcha. Okay.

Jennie (01:00:43.23)
And then if something does happen that they can't control because they're also small, then they carry that guilt with them. I let this happen to my younger sibling. You couldn't do shit about it either. Like you're eight. So parentifying or putting older children in charge of younger children when they are not qualified.

Papa Rick (01:00:43.453)
That's right.

Papa Rick (01:00:55.845)
Yeah, yeah. I get it. I get it, yeah. Yeah.

Jennie (01:01:14.102)
And, you know, there's a lot of examples of this. But, you know, and then there's like there's like older children watching younger children, like babysitting almost. And in certain age differences, that can work. If you have like a teenager, like a 15, 16, 17 year old watching a much younger sibling, like a five year old sibling, that can work.

Papa Rick (01:01:41.843)
take your younger brother or trick or treating or something. You know, it's like in your, there's 12 years difference between them, you know? Yeah.

Jennie (01:01:49.482)
And, but also like not that is an expectation. And if that, if you're 15, 16, 17 year old did that for another family, they would get paid as a babysitter. So it's not their inherent responsibility. Your children, your children are your responsibility. You don't get to parentify one of your other children to be responsible for your other children. Like you are the parent. And if you do,

Papa Rick (01:02:02.997)
Oh yeah, you get credit for it in some way. Sure.

Jennie (01:02:19.538)
um, have your, one of your older children who is developmentally capable, do something for, that is caring for the younger child. I mean, I'm outside of like, can you please change the baby's diaper? I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about like putting them in charge of the safety care and wellbeing of a younger child, then they should be compensated appropriately as if it is a job so that they know.

Papa Rick (01:02:43.312)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (01:02:47.734)
that it's voluntary and not that child is actually their responsibility. They're not old enough. They don't have their own children that that's your child. You don't get to take one of your children and put them in charge of one of your other children. Um, it, it fucks with their head. It's not good. Now instilling a sense of taking care of each other.

Papa Rick (01:02:55.153)
some other.

Papa Rick (01:03:01.139)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:03:06.801)
Okay.

Jennie (01:03:15.49)
Um, a sense of standing up for each other, protecting each other. That's different. You know, that's the same as.

Papa Rick (01:03:23.477)
Helping with the family, yeah, that's if you've got an older, I mean, it depends on differences in age is my first thought. Putting a 10-year-old in charge of a seven-year-old, that's one thing. Putting a 17-year-old in charge of younger siblings after they get home from school until mom and dad get home, that's not a paying job. That's being a big brother, big sister.

Jennie (01:03:26.324)
Yeah!

Jennie (01:03:32.515)
does.

Jennie (01:03:50.37)
Sure it is. I disagree. That 17 year old did not go have children of their own to take care of. You the parent are forcing them to be in charge of the safety and wellbeing of someone that they would normally get paid to do if they were to do it in anyone else's home.

Papa Rick (01:03:52.59)
Right? So...

Papa Rick (01:03:59.825)
Hmm. Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:04:11.125)
Oh yeah, but they're not. They're doing it because I'm buying them food and providing a roof over their head. And they're helping with the fam. They're old enough to help go plow the field. Now they can help the family.

Jennie (01:04:24.302)
Plowing the field of food that feeds the family and participating in that chore is not the same as childcare.

Papa Rick (01:04:34.897)
Hmm, okay.

Jennie (01:04:37.686)
being put in charge because if something out of their control and terrible happens to one of those smaller children while under their watch

Papa Rick (01:04:38.461)
I'll have to think about that one a little bit.

Papa Rick (01:04:47.885)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (01:04:52.214)
That is...

Papa Rick (01:04:56.773)
That would also be terrible for a parent to then, I mean, if something out of control happens, then you would absolutely treat that as well. That was out of your control. Right? I mean, if a burglar breaks in and shoot him.

Jennie (01:05:09.218)
That doesn't mean that they're gonna internalize it that way. If you put their safety in the hands of your 17 year old, the way that young brain, undeveloped by the way, till we're 28 years old, is going to handle that is guilt and self-blame.

versus breaking, right, but you, the adult, chose to have children and take on that responsibility, forcing your 17-year-old to take on that responsibility when they did not make the choice to have younger siblings, you did.

Papa Rick (01:05:29.522)
as it would be for an adult.

Papa Rick (01:05:36.51)
Okay.

Papa Rick (01:05:41.797)
Yeah. Okay. That's a tough one for me.

Jennie (01:05:47.606)
Now, teaching children to participate in the maintenance of the household through household chores, et cetera, that's different. But putting them in charge of the life of a younger sibling is developmentally unfair.

Papa Rick (01:05:59.278)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:06:09.233)
Hmm, okay.

Jennie (01:06:12.895)
unless there is a discussion and they say, I want to babysit and I want to get paid.

That's a tricky one because there's.

Papa Rick (01:06:31.673)
Yeah, I'm not saying, okay, I want you guys to go stand on this kaiwak on the brink of Niagara Falls. That's my nightmare dream is having to jump in the water to save kids before they go over Niagara Falls, you know. Expecting a 17 year old child to do that instead of the parent. Duh, that's a bad idea, right? But babysitting your younger brother and sisters.

Okay, maybe you get paid for that, maybe you don't. That would depend on how much you were expecting of them. You know, is it like, no, you can't play basketball because I need you, you can't do some other activity all your friends are doing, you know, the kids, typical of what kids are doing at age because you're working at home all the time. There's gotta be some compensation for that, sure. You know, just forcing, they're not slave labor.

Jennie (01:07:28.95)
I mean, a 17 year old is always going to have something better to do outside of the house than stay home and take care of their siblings.

Papa Rick (01:07:35.929)
Well, sure. And some of that is like, okay, there's, you need to teach some, hey, family comes before that. There's that'd be, that's probably a good episode to tease apart. I agree that can be done unreasonably.

Jennie (01:07:44.066)
But the 17 year old did not choose to have those children. The 17 year old did not choose to have those children.

Jennie (01:07:55.53)
It's just like when parents, when children come into the world and they ask for things and the punishment of taking away belongings or saying, I pay for the electricity, I pay for the food, I do these things, and so you will listen to me, you will respect me. I did not choose to be born.

Papa Rick (01:08:20.83)
Yeah, I agree with that. That kind of control is not ideal.

Jennie (01:08:21.334)
You don't, like parents don't get to force.

Jennie (01:08:27.906)
force things upon their children. And I'm not talking about creating a teamwork atmosphere and a we all contribute to the family and the household and teaching responsibility and all of those things. What I'm saying is the forced parentification of a child for their younger siblings. It happens, it also is only happening to the oldest child. The younger, it never happens to the younger children. Almost never.

Papa Rick (01:08:40.87)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:08:48.89)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:08:55.729)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:08:57.258)
It's only the only child, the only the oldest child that experiences that. So when we're talking about.

Papa Rick (01:09:02.009)
Unless there's a lot of them and they, you know, the, the older is taking care of the younger. So that's a common thing in big families.

Jennie (01:09:07.518)
Yeah. And so I'm not talking about like a 10 year old who, and then there's a baby born and they want to help change diapers and help take care of the baby. I'm not saying like, no, that's not your responsibility. Don't do that or let your child do that. I'm saying that when your child wants to help, or if you request like, Hey, like these like momentary things, can you help me with this? Can you heat up the baby's bottle or whatever?

Papa Rick (01:09:20.898)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:09:34.173)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (01:09:35.542)
That's teamwork. You're the parent. You're still there overseeing all of the things.

but leaving your child, your younger children, as the sole responsibility of the older child.

that is developmentally inappropriate because they're still siblings. And they're still like, hire a babysitter is what I'm saying. And if your 17 year old is like, no, I wanna do it. I wanna take care of my kid, like blah, blah. And I wanna make the money and I need to make, I'm saving up for this thing. Like, please let me take care of them. Great, do that, pay them. Your 17 year old is like gung ho, excited wants to do it. But...

Papa Rick (01:09:55.756)
Okay.

Papa Rick (01:10:06.682)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:10:22.238)
At no point should any of your children be solely responsible for the safety and well-being of any of your other children. You can never put that on them. Your children are your responsibility.

Papa Rick (01:10:32.881)
So I'm hearing two issues here.

to pay.

Gotcha, gotcha. Paying isn't always an option. Is some other form of compensation. I'm hearing two things, responsibility and potential, for things out of the teenager's control, which, well, if that's gonna happen much, that's probably not a good time to leave a teenager in charge of things, right? I mean, at some point you'll want your teenager to...

drive somebody to a ball game or something just as a just as a family chore. You know if you're putting them in if you're putting a child if you're putting one child in the position of you know a risky position of caring for another child then you're doing it wrong.

You know, if you're sending them out to where they're likely to have a situation that they're not going to know how to handle, then you shouldn't have sent them. Absolutely. That's inappropriate to do. But boy, a lot of families, you know, big families rely on older kids to help take care of the younger kids. So I'm not sure where the line is there.

Jennie (01:12:00.718)
Help, help is the key word there. Helping take care of the younger kids under the supervision of the adult in the house. But putting children in charge of children without adult supervision is what I'm talking about here. Putting that level of responsibility.

Papa Rick (01:12:06.261)
Okay, yeah. Yeah, not, not.

Papa Rick (01:12:17.552)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:12:21.965)
Okay, yeah, okay. That's a complicated one, yeah.

Jennie (01:12:27.338)
That will fuck a kid up if something bad happens to that younger kid that they don't know how to handle, they don't know what to do. That will fuck that kid up for the rest of their life. And it's not fair. That's not fair to put that on them. It's not their job.

Papa Rick (01:12:33.022)
Oh absolutely.

Papa Rick (01:12:37.785)
I agree. I agree.

Yeah, doing that when there's a, you know, anything but a minimal risk.

is crazy. You know, leaving kids at home, you could always have a, you know, somebody break into the house and murder everybody, whether mom and dad are there or not. Barring that, you wouldn't hold anybody particularly responsible for that kind of thing. But yeah, requiring it all the time without some kind of acceptable compensation or doing it inappropriately. Yeah, I'm all over that. That's...

Jennie (01:12:59.298)
Right.

Jennie (01:13:20.13)
but also in a major like, not just out of their control, not just out of their control from an outside force, but any age difference.

Papa Rick (01:13:21.329)
Because yeah, exactly, if something happens...

Jennie (01:13:33.442)
Siblings also don't listen to each other. So they're too comfortable. So the difference in hiring an outside babysitter is that a 10 year old will listen to a 17 year old babysitter better than they will ever listen to their 17 year old sibling. A 10 year old will tell their 17 year old sibling to fuck off, I'm gonna do whatever I want. I don't care that mom puts you in charge. That's the other issue here is that

Papa Rick (01:13:49.084)
Usually, that's why I agree.

Papa Rick (01:13:53.413)
Yeah, yeah. Often unsuccessful, yeah.

Jennie (01:13:58.314)
So I'm talking about the age difference being massive, 17 to five, because a 17 year old can pick up a five year old and keep them from hurting themselves. A 17 year old very likely can't stop a 10 or 11 year old from hurting themselves. They're too fast.

Papa Rick (01:14:03.569)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:14:10.18)
Exact.

Papa Rick (01:14:15.845)
Good point. Yep. And that's the age difference thing I was talking about. Absolutely. If they can't, if they're not able to control the little kid or if they, you know, if the younger kid is on some kind of machinery, keeping them alive and the older one doesn't know how to run it, you know, well, no, you can't be alone. No, you're not. Yeah. Unreasonable. Yeah. It's unreasonable expectation. Absolutely. Real risk.

Jennie (01:14:16.866)
So.

Jennie (01:14:35.806)
or a medication or they don't know enough about CPR. Like if the 17 year old is taking care of a two year old, it doesn't know that the CPR on a two year old is different. Like unless you've trained them on that. 15 year old babysitters are CPR certified. There's a difference than putting your child in charge of your other child, than hiring a babysitter of the same age. There's a difference.

Papa Rick (01:14:49.613)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:15:00.493)
Absolutely, absolutely. It can certainly be done inappropriately and shouldn't be. Yes, absolutely.

Jennie (01:15:05.57)
So anyway, now I'm also not saying that you can't leave your children home alone together. I'm just saying that all of your children should be old enough to take care of themselves for a few hours. It should not be that one of your children is old enough to take care of themselves. So you put them in charge of the younger ones who can't. Ha ha ha.

Papa Rick (01:15:15.75)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:15:26.005)
Yeah, so you can go drink or go out and party or absolutely. Yeah, that's the absolutely you can't.

Jennie (01:15:30.77)
Or go to a parenting class, whatever it is you're doing, it doesn't matter. There's no judgment about what it is you're doing. Parents have lives. I'm saying that siblings should not be in charge of caring for other siblings. It creates conflict. Siblings are equals. It doesn't matter what their age is. Your job as a parent is to love your children equally and treat them as equals, not place one of them above any of the others.

Papa Rick (01:15:38.612)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:15:44.305)
Yeah, yeah.

Jennie (01:15:59.806)
And that is often what happens in birth order is that first oldest children tend to be once that younger one comes along. So they're the baby. Number one is the baby until there's another baby in the house. And then number one is parentified. Even if they're two years old, they're parentified. You should know better to be gentle with the baby. Don't do that. Two year olds are still babies. They still need their mom. They still need their attachment figure. They still need you just as much.

Papa Rick (01:16:00.999)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (01:16:28.094)
almost as that new infant needs you. And if you are not giving, not finding a way to make sure that both children or all three children, all four children, all 12 children feel like they are equal in the eyes of their parents, that is what causes resentment and competition. And mom thinks this of you. And so you just get away with everything or you're the baby and like mom and dad.

Papa Rick (01:16:55.227)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:16:56.758)
We get punished for everything and you get away with everything. And all of those sibling rivalry things that happen because of birth order are so avoidable. It's just that we are, I don't know what it is in the human brain. I haven't read about this in a while. I'll have to look it up and get back to you. I don't know what it is in the survival instinct human brain that causes us.

Papa Rick (01:17:00.237)
Yeah, absolutely.

Jennie (01:17:23.286)
to it's almost the compare it's the comparison flaw that we all have is that I have three children but they are not all the same developed like they're capable of different things and so if this one is 10 and this one is eight and this one is six I expect the 10 year old to be better behaved than the six year old and it's like well with some things but that 10 year old is still

Papa Rick (01:17:36.697)
Yeah, yeah, that's

Jennie (01:17:53.718)
new things constantly. So you're gonna have just as many behavior, like things to tackle with your 10 year old than that you are with your six year old. They're just going to be different.

Papa Rick (01:18:04.101)
very individual. Yeah.

Jennie (01:18:06.21)
But we take comparison and we may, and instead of going same but different, we go different and should be more mature. Different and should know better. They should, you know, they're this age. They should have this. They should know that. They should do this. 10 year old is still developing. They still have a very underdeveloped brain. They have no judgment. Like they need their parents just as much as a six year old does. You know?

Papa Rick (01:18:17.617)
Should be, yeah.

Papa Rick (01:18:33.073)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:18:35.842)
that it's.

Papa Rick (01:18:36.945)
Not just an age thing. It's not just like, hey, you're eight. Now this is the way you'll be. It's it has to do with the individual child and what they've, you know, responsibility and all those complex things. Yeah. They all have equal expectations and at no point equal, but not the same. Okay. And some of what you were saying may become, maybe come to mind the word abdicate and at no point can a parent abdicate their parenting.

Jennie (01:18:46.218)
equal.

Jennie (01:18:49.594)
equal but not the same is a phrase that I use a lot.

Papa Rick (01:19:07.761)
You know, you can assign a responsible party if they're responsible, but at all times, you're the parent.

Jennie (01:19:14.062)
Yep. Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:19:18.234)
I think some people want to do that. They take their older kids and they use them. So they can go off and do things. And then that turns into inappropriate, especially with addiction. Um, run into situations with addiction where that happens. Parents get addicted and then the kids are raising themselves.

Jennie (01:19:34.986)
Yeah, well, and then there's extreme cases where older siblings, yeah, end up raising the younger siblings completely. Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:19:42.529)
Yeah, yeah, that's why that's what I'm kind of thinking of extreme situations, I guess. I mean, there's abuse of that kind of thing.

Jennie (01:19:50.326)
Well, that's the thing is people think that it's only extreme situations. This is very common in, in most households is that people expect more.

And it gets even, it gets more developmentally inappropriate with the eldest children because they're older. So somehow they should know better, but it's like, they're still kids. They're still figuring things out. They're still learning. They're still, they still need attention. They still have behaviors that they don't understand and emotions that get the best of them. Like it doesn't matter if they're three, 10 or 15, they have the same needs. They need to be seen, heard.

Papa Rick (01:20:15.685)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:20:33.558)
Validated.

Papa Rick (01:20:34.029)
Yeah. Agree.

Jennie (01:20:36.407)
You know?

Jennie (01:20:41.922)
So expecting.

You're going to have different expectations for different ages and stages.

Papa Rick (01:20:53.029)
That's the word I was thinking. It all comes down to expectations, appropriate expectations.

Jennie (01:20:58.722)
but expecting, your children are also gonna have different strengths and abilities. So your six-year-old might have something in check that your 10-year-old doesn't yet. Your six-year-old might have fantastic verbal skills and they learned very quickly how to talk about their feelings instead of react. But your 10-year-old...

Papa Rick (01:20:59.961)
shared expectations.

Papa Rick (01:21:06.918)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:21:25.95)
And maybe you as a parent did not learn how to teach your children to talk about their feelings until your six-year-old came along and you started teaching your six-year-old from the time they were two, how to talk about their feelings. Well, at that time, your 10-year-old was six. So their brain from one to five absorbed everything. They didn't start learning how to talk about their emotions till they were six and now they're 10 and they're still working on it. When your six-year-old started when they were two and now they're six and they've got it

down. And maybe they're extra gifted, maybe they learned it earlier. It could be any of those things. But just because your 10 year old doesn't have something perfectly mastered that maybe one of your younger children does, doesn't mean that they don't have a million other skills and strengths that are going on for them. And so you as the parent causing this comparison and competition between your children will create conflict. It will

Papa Rick (01:21:58.128)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:22:16.367)
Absolutely.

Jennie (01:22:24.59)
create resentment between your children. It will create guilt and shame and all of these other things and the children that you're having unrealistic expectations for. And so I always go back to the philosophy that every child is different within your own family. Each of your children is going to be a very different individual. And your job is to guide them according to their strengths.

and to not shame them for whatever it is they're not particularly perfect at because they're not meant to be. There's some other person in the world who's perfect at those things and will do the things in the world that need done with those skills. Look at your child's gifts, look at your child with curiosity and with the, I want to get to know you and give them the respect and dignity that a human being deserves. And you've got to do that with each of your children, not compare your children to one another.

Papa Rick (01:22:58.901)
Right? Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:23:16.932)
Absolutely.

Jennie (01:23:22.878)
and then shame one of them for not having the same skill as another one. It's like your children are all going to be very different and have different gifts and things, you know? So, yeah.

Papa Rick (01:23:23.222)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:23:27.823)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Absolutely, yeah.

Jennie (01:23:40.138)
I could talk about this. I'm almost.

Papa Rick (01:23:42.617)
Sorry, sorry if I ever did that to you guys, you and your brothers.

Jennie (01:23:46.99)
Mm.

Papa Rick (01:23:49.658)
we did.

Jennie (01:23:49.686)
I don't. I just.

Papa Rick (01:23:55.133)
I don't remember Josh leaving Josh in charge a lot. I shouldn't say his name.

Jennie (01:23:55.182)
We just got-

Not a lot, but a few times. Josh was parentified, for sure.

Papa Rick (01:24:08.121)
He always suffered from being bigger and being treated as older than he probably should have been. It had expectations of... from the time he was like two. Everybody wanted to expect him to act like he was four. And I'm sure that went on forever.

Jennie (01:24:13.71)
than he was, yeah.

Jennie (01:24:29.266)
He always...

Jennie (01:24:33.51)
Yeah, he was parentified. I...

Jennie (01:24:41.814)
I had typical middle child syndrome where I felt like I had to scream to be heard, misbehave to be heard or paid attention to. But I also then had girls, the girl when we got older and I started being treated slightly different than the boys and my social.

calendar and expectations and dating were different because the boys could go do whatever they wanted, but there's a different danger for girls who are dating and going out with boys that, yeah. That frustrated me, but that's like a safety thing. And then Nathan's, for Nathan, I know Nathan has a different, Nathan has his own perspective on.

Papa Rick (01:25:17.205)
You had a different bit of a guard around you, yeah.

Papa Rick (01:25:26.865)
That's kind of a thing, yeah.

Jennie (01:25:35.106)
the way that he was compared to the siblings. Josh.

we beat up on him a little bit and he got away with everything that we would get in trouble for. He also was got away like no matter who was fighting with him or why and no matter like he always instigated shit and Josh and I always got in trouble for him starting shit. That was one of the things that for Nathan, Nathan would instigate, Josh and I would respond.

Papa Rick (01:25:55.589)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:25:58.801)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:26:03.377)
For Nathan or for Josh?

Jennie (01:26:11.626)
and no one ever was interested in me and Josh's side of the story, Nathan always got away with it. Because we were bigger and older and should have known better and shouldn't have reacted, which is just not a realistic expectation. We're children too. We had appropriate reactions to how we were treated.

Papa Rick (01:26:18.01)
The baby got away with everything. Yeah, I'll bet. I'll bet, I'll bet.

Jennie (01:26:33.694)
And he knew it. He was little and he knew it. And he knew he'd get away with it every time too.

Papa Rick (01:26:34.457)
I can see that.

Papa Rick (01:26:39.237)
You guys were all way too smart to manipulate.

Jennie (01:26:41.206)
But we all, then Josh and I also beat up on him a little bit because he was smaller.

Papa Rick (01:26:45.873)
Hahaha!

Papa Rick (01:26:49.841)
Yeah. Like John and Linda beat up on me a little bit. It's funny how it leaves us, you know, later in life even. It's how much work it is to root that out.

Jennie (01:26:54.964)
Nathan.

Jennie (01:27:03.958)
Well, Nathan also got left behind when Josh and I were expecting the divorce. Josh was leaving for college. I was in the middle of high school and Nathan was entering high school when you guys announced that and Nathan was completely blindsided. And then...

Papa Rick (01:27:16.105)
I remember that so clearly.

Papa Rick (01:27:29.329)
He was stuck. I promised him I'd get him out of that, and I never did. Yeah, that's part of why I was murderous for a decade or so.

Jennie (01:27:35.594)
Well, it wouldn't, I mean, it wouldn't have-

It wouldn't have mattered. He was caught in it because he was still living at home. I was old enough to drive and go, and I was going out with my friends and I was a lot more free. Josh went off to college, so he wasn't there. I had an escape. Nathan was the one that got, like he, and I'm not even talking about like you and mom. I'm talking about sibling-wise, Nathan got left behind. He got left behind.

Papa Rick (01:27:51.365)
You had an escape.

Papa Rick (01:28:04.109)
Mm-hmm. He was alone. He was alone. Yeah.

Jennie (01:28:08.95)
going through that and I, and we, and there was a period. Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:28:10.665)
I did that. I was the youngest too, where everybody left. Mom was sick. And so I identify with that a little bit. And the need, the feeling, the responsibility to take care, take and stuff. Yeah. Because you're the last.

Jennie (01:28:26.154)
And it wasn't even like you and mom didn't need taken care of like Nathan was left behind to deal with it alone. And...

Papa Rick (01:28:34.524)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:28:37.298)
And he and I, to be fair, he and I went through a couple years of it together. And I tried to take care of him as best I could from 16 to 18 years old. Um, and there was a lot of bonding for him and I threw that, but then I also had to go to, I got cancer and then I had, and then I went to college and there was a whole, you know, I, there was a lot going on. And.

Papa Rick (01:28:56.377)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (01:29:05.782)
So Nathan was left behind from.

Papa Rick (01:29:06.765)
That's why I supported him with the line webers so much so that he had a healthy family model to escape to as much as possible.

Jennie (01:29:16.002)
But so for Nathan from 16 to 18, being alone, dealing with being caught in the middle of custody, et cetera, and Josh and I off at college, it's not like we called home often, you know? And Nathan was just, he was just kind of left behind. I think about that probably more often than I should.

Papa Rick (01:29:37.038)
I get that.

Jennie (01:29:43.47)
Because in the time I didn't realize that's what was happening. Um, but since I've thought about it a lot.

Papa Rick (01:29:49.113)
Yeah, you never do. We should still write a book and, or maybe this will be a vehicle or maybe we can do something different where the three of, you know, the four of us and your mom, you know, whatever, we get together and talk about experiences from a retrospective point of view, share some of that amongst ourselves firsthand.

Jennie (01:29:51.339)
I mean, we were kids.

Jennie (01:30:10.199)
now.

Jennie (01:30:14.046)
Yet we all should have been in there be.

Papa Rick (01:30:14.341)
work through stuff.

Papa Rick (01:30:18.137)
Yeah, I fought for that. I fought for that. Your mom wouldn't do it. Sorry.

Jennie (01:30:18.466)
process.

Jennie (01:30:25.506)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:30:26.529)
I spent a lot of time shopping for therapists, for family therapists.

could find an acceptable one.

Jennie (01:30:36.574)
Women tend to be much more far gone when a relationship ends because they've been anticipating it for a lot longer than...

Papa Rick (01:30:47.753)
Oh yeah, she was working on it for 15 years or so. Yeah, you can see the, see the trails in the finances and whatnot.

Jennie (01:30:48.299)
men do.

Jennie (01:31:01.223)
Um.

Papa Rick (01:31:04.026)
Thank you.

Jennie (01:31:06.926)
See.

Jennie (01:31:11.882)
Yeah. So there's, we touched on it, but, um, parent maturity changes from first kid to second, third or fourth or more too, because the first kid is like the trial kid, um, and you're figuring everything out and you're learning how to change diapers. So the first kid is always, yeah, is always the experimental kid. And then, um, so there's usually like some parenting tactics that tend to evolve once.

Papa Rick (01:31:22.749)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:31:27.677)
Pure experiment. Chemistry set, yeah.

Papa Rick (01:31:34.705)
Hahaha

Jennie (01:31:41.79)
more children, more experience comes along. Parents change their approach sometimes, not always, but I've seen it a lot, that parents change their approach to parenting with younger children because they've seen the effects of the first approach and they're like, maybe we could, if we shift this thing or this thing works better, I read this book or took this class or whatever, reason for it.

Papa Rick (01:32:01.624)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (01:32:11.23)
You know, there's birth order. Yeah, but there's, but birth order also comes with like with, um, parental maturity changes as more children come along and parents get older and learn new things and all of that. And so it's all just a shifting flowing, you know, cauldron of alchemy and

Papa Rick (01:32:12.017)
Sometimes you figure it out, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they make mistakes, same mistakes forever. Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:32:40.409)
Millions.

Jennie (01:32:42.266)
And there's a lot of parts at play. We don't have nearly enough time on a one hour episode to break all that down, but some things to be aware of, some ways to approach, some things to avoid, and happy parenting. Good luck out there.

Papa Rick (01:32:43.325)
Oh boy.

Papa Rick (01:33:03.417)
parenting through times. Be safe out there. What was the, that's an old TV show tagline or something. Yeah.

Jennie (01:33:05.998)
That's gonna be my new sign off. Happy parenting and good luck. I've been searching for a tagline for a long time and I think that's it. I think I found it. Happy parenting and good luck out there.

Papa Rick (01:33:16.317)
thought about and good luck out there. I like that.

Jennie (01:33:20.968)
Um...

Papa Rick (01:33:22.931)
That's a nice ad.

Jennie (01:33:26.282)
Let's see. Leave us a review.

Papa Rick (01:33:28.685)
Yeah, parenting different kids, you know, the parent from the parents perspective, from the kids perspective, you know, I was the fifth of five, you know, and there's no pictures. I mean, there's and my siblings are like, you know, he had it so easy. He was, you know, parents tend to get more established, more affluent or whatever is as time goes on. So the youngest benefits from all the all the how much older the parents are when they're having kids. And there's all kinds of dynamics in there.

Like you were saying.

Jennie (01:33:59.777)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:34:02.986)
Yeah, and the goal is to just remain conscious and you're gonna parent different, each of your kids is gonna have a different personality and they're gonna have different needs. And again, comparing them to one another is always a pitfall, don't do it. You're gonna have to adjust your parenting strategies to help your kids through different things in different ways. But whenever it comes to your children's interactions together, building their relationship together,

Papa Rick (01:34:18.806)
Always a bad thing.

Jennie (01:34:33.014)
their skills, their conflict resolution, peer to peer. It is just, it's so important. Like your children are attached to you, your attachment figures, first attachment figures, second attachment figures are siblings and those relationships are just as important. And you are the leader of those relationships. So how...

How you and your parenting partner or spouse treat one another bleeds down into how you treat your children bleeds down into how your children treat their siblings. And all of it starts with the parents.

Papa Rick (01:35:12.102)
big time.

Papa Rick (01:35:19.686)
Yeah.

Yeah, these are all, these are all things. I never really thought about it that much. Uh, self-help books, you know, when you're talking about comparison in your own head, comparing yourself to other people, comparing yourself to Facebook, compare, you know, comparisons are generally not healthy, right? They can be motivating. They can be, there are positive things, but, um, you know, unhealthy, unhealthy mental habits in you are not good.

They would also creep out in your instinct, in your natural first not thinking reaction with your kids, you know, your, your knee jerk reaction to things.

Jennie (01:35:58.406)
Yeah, your kids have a front row seat to your, to all of your...

strengths and weaknesses. Your children can pick that shit out, like, before they are verbal, they can pick that shit out. Kids feel everything. Kids, yeah. Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:36:07.118)
Yeah, there you go.

Papa Rick (01:36:12.437)
and you impose it on them. You know, that's where that unhealthy stuff, what we're really talking about still is you know, to do this stuff you kind of have to do some work on yourself too and decide what's good, what's bad, what's meaningful and make sense and give us some comments if some of this stuff is just not making sense. You know, let us know what's not making sense because

We might need to dig into some of this stuff a little more to make it make it. You know, some people, some people, some parents are going to be like, you know, my kids are fine and I like to see them fight, you know, it's good for them. It makes them stronger. It's like, well, okay. Maybe if you're living in the Rockies and having to fight bears off every day, what that, but some circumstances, but

Jennie (01:37:03.334)
kind of sanctioned fights.

Um, yeah, cool. We have our Patreon. Um, it costs a lot of money to make a podcast. So if you like it, go check that out. Support us support the mission. Um, coming to a YMCA near you. If you're in Colorado, uh, parents night out parents nights out. Um, I'll be hosting.

Papa Rick (01:37:20.957)
Give us some support.

Jennie (01:37:36.11)
child care provided spaces for parents to gather and learn and commune and talk through parenting struggles, all things parenting and of course offer parent education and coaching, etc. Low cost, child care included.

Papa Rick (01:37:58.949)
That sounds great.

Jennie (01:38:02.226)
And what else, what else do we have going on? We have our guest next week, Noelle, who is an energy worker, healer. She's been in the childcare industry, I think longer than I have, 20 plus years. She is, works with children with disabilities,

autism, ADHD, and she does some really cool healing, like calming techniques, like physical hands-on, not forceful, but like breathing exercises, and then routines where children can, with autism, she does sessions with them.

Papa Rick (01:38:34.517)
Ooh, challenging.

Jennie (01:38:59.254)
She has craniosacral therapy and things like that really help the sleep hygiene of children with autism and ADHD, which can be a really difficult journey for some families, letting their child's nervous system calm down enough to actually get a good night's sleep. So she is going to have so much insight for us. I'm really excited. She also recently started her own business.

Papa Rick (01:39:09.361)
Hmm. I like that word, that phrase.

Jennie (01:39:28.638)
offering these services. She's exiting the nanny world and entering the entrepreneur world where she's offering these healing sessions and different things for parents of children with special needs, different needs, atypical needs. And she's just fantastic. Her energy is just wonderful. And I'm really excited to have her on the show. She and I have done.

a few things together now and yeah, that'll be great. Next week.

Papa Rick (01:40:05.261)
sleep, calm, can't have enough of those.

Jennie (01:40:10.83)
So cool. All right. What was my tagline? Happy parenting and good luck out there. And may the odds ever be in your favor.

Papa Rick (01:40:21.549)
And good luck out there.

Papa Rick (01:40:29.262)
We, I was going to say we shouldn't laugh when you say it, or it kind of takes away from the seriousness of it a little bit when we giggle.

Jennie (01:40:33.632)
Hmm

Happy parenting and may the odds be ever, is it be ever in your favor? Ever be in your favor. Be ever in your favor.

Papa Rick (01:40:43.174)
May the...

be ever in your favor sounds right. I'll have to go back and watch Hunger Games.

Jennie (01:40:51.083)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:40:54.568)
All right, we'll see you guys next week.